Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about its history.”

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Those who are easily outraged are easily manipulated.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Dear Washington Post, you are the darkness now.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Everybody saw this coming.

Oppose, oppose, oppose. do not congratulate. this is not business as usual.

If you’re gonna whine, it’s time to resign!

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

The desire to stay informed is directly at odds with the need to not be constantly enraged.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

Roe is not about choice. It is about freedom.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires Republicans to act in good faith.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

If America since Jan 2025 hasn’t broken your heart, you haven’t loved her enough.

Republicans in disarray!

Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

I would try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / TGIFriday Morning Open Thread: Michigan Establishes A Pattern of Criminal Behavior

TGIFriday Morning Open Thread: Michigan Establishes A Pattern of Criminal Behavior

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Michigan, My Michigan…


Craig Mauger, at the Detroit News — “Trump recorded pressuring Wayne County canvassers not to certify 2020 vote”:

Then-President Donald Trump personally pressured two Republican members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers not to sign the certification of the 2020 presidential election, according to recordings reviewed by The Detroit News and revealed publicly for the first time.

On a Nov. 17, 2020, phone call, which also involved Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel, Trump told Monica Palmer and William Hartmann, the two GOP Wayne County canvassers, they’d look “terrible” if they signed the documents after they first voted in opposition and then later in the same meeting voted to approve certification of the county’s election results, according to the recordings.

“We’ve got to fight for our country,” said Trump on the recordings, made by a person who was present for the call with Palmer and Hartmann. “We can’t let these people take our country away from us.”

McDaniel, a Michigan native and the leader of the Republican Party nationally, said at another point in the call, “If you can go home tonight, do not sign it. … We will get you attorneys.”

To which Trump added: “We’ll take care of that.”

Palmer and Hartmann left the canvassers meeting without signing the official statement of votes for Wayne County, and the following day, they unsuccessfully attempted to rescind their votes in favor of certification, filing legal affidavits claiming they were pressured…

The News listened to audio that was captured in four recordings by someone present for the conversation between Trump and the canvassers. That information came to The News through an intermediary who also heard the recordings but who was not present when they were made. Sources presented the information to The News on the condition that they not be identified publicly for fear of retribution by the former president or his supporters.

The timestamp of the first recording was 9:55 p.m. Nov. 17, 2020. The time was consistent with Verizon phone records obtained by a U.S. House committee that showed Palmer received calls from McDaniel at 9:53 p.m. and 10:04 p.m…

Tonight feels like a good time to tell you all that, for me, the absolute lowest moment in the post election battle we endured to protect Michigan’s accurate and legitimate election results in 2020 was not when armed protestors stormed my home. It was the night of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers meeting.

I distinctly remember coming home that evening feeling completely defeated. We knew about the pressure not to certify (though until tonight I did not know about the recording).

We were prepared to go to court to successfully ensure certification at the local and state level – and we were confident we’d win in court. But blocking certification in Wayne County and pushing this to the courts would still delay and create enough doubt and uncertainty to enable the Trump campaign to push Pennsylvania, which was certifying the next week, to delay as well. And we knew other dominos would fall after that.

How could we overcome the pressure of the then-President of the United States on local and state officials? Were the facts and law not enough?

Well, then something I’ll never forget happened.

Hundreds – hundreds (!) – of citizens showed up to the meeting of the Wayne County Canvassing Board to remind them of their duty under the law to ensure their votes counted. Their voices mattered. Their votes mattered.

In my view that turned the tide. Citizens and election officials in Wayne County and statewide didn’t flinch, stood firm, and demanded their votes be certified as required under the law.

And in the end, the Wayne County Canvassing board fulfilled their legal duty, followed the law and certified the election.

What started as the lowest moment of the post election melee became the most inspiring.

And in the end, the Wayne County Canvassing board fulfilled their legal duty, followed the law and certified the election.

What started as the lowest moment of the post election melee became the most inspiring.

The voters won. Facts and the rule of law carried the day.

Democracy prevailed.

Thank you for coming to my #TedTalk ✌🏼

Everything Trump touches…

Reader Interactions

172Comments

  3. 3.

    Shalimar

    I thought Georgia and Arizona already established the pattern?  Does it take 2 dots, or 3?  There is also a pretty clear dot in Pennsylvania that Perry’s phone records will reveal further.

  4. 4.

    narya

    I knew he was this corrupt, and I knew he was pretty stupid–he’d been getting away with this kind of shit his whole life–but I have to admit I am a little surprised just how many people he sucked into his corruption and just how much actual evidence abounds. For all that we’ve seen, I still think it’s the tip of the iceberg.

  5. 5.

    Kay

    We were prepared to go to court to successfully ensure certification at the local and state level – and we were confident we’d win in court. But blocking certification in Wayne County and pushing this to the courts would still delay and create enough doubt and uncertainty to enable the Trump campaign to push Pennsylvania, which was certifying the next week, to delay as well. And we knew other dominos would fall after that.

    That was my fear too- and what we have since found out they were hoping for- they just needed a delay and ONE win in any court and they would have been off to the races. We came really close to a tipping point for democracy.

  6. 6.

    mrmoshpotato

    First and last tweets are great.

    Dump can throw himself and his entire mobster family into the Sun already.

  7. 7.

    Kay

    Monica Palmer, one of the Repubs on the Wayne Co Board of Canvassers, doesn’t dispute the Detroit News characterization of the call.

    That’s interesting because that means she lied about it when she was asked by the Detroit News about the call – she said Trump thanked her for her service and told her goodnight- and she also lied to the January 6th committee.
    I hope there are tapes of the rest of the calls so we can find out local GOP officials also lied in PA and GA and AZ. They all need to be removed from these positions and barred from election work. They all violated their oaths.

  8. 8.

    Scout211

    A nice report on NBC News about the J6 rioters who have been called undercover Antifa activists by the right for years, including by GOP congress members.  Those purported left wing activists keep getting  “unmasked” as Trump supporters and are being arrested and/or charged.

    It’s a satisfying read this morning.

  10. 10.

    Kay

    We really need some assurances from current local GOP elections officials that they will honor the oath they take. Trump will contest the next election – do local GOP officials plan to attempt to throw out votes again? Can they be replaced with registered Independents with higher ethical standards?

  11. 11.

    Kay

    I think the question is “can you be a cult member and also be an election official when your cult leader is on the ballot?”

  12. 12.

    marklar

    @Shalimar: “I thought Georgia and Arizona already established the pattern?  Does it take 2 dots, or 3?”

    When I teach statistics, I tend to mention that a single data point may be a fluke, two points may be a coincidence, but three begins to show a trend.  With GA, AZ, and MI all now established, we have a trend.

  13. 13.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Hopefully these revelations will get this into people’s consciousness more, that we really dodged a bullet with these people and their coup attempt. I hope that one tweet is right that this fits the definition of bribery

    Having the recording helps a lot, because they can deny things until people can hear it with their own ears.

  14. 14.

    marklar

    @Scout211: “A nice report on NBC News about the J6 rioters who have been called undercover Antifa activists by the right for years, including by GOP congress members.”

    AntiFA AntiFO

  15. 15.

    satby

    A little off topic for Chicago area peeps: TX and FL continue to dump migrants in Chicago, often only with the clothes on their backs. Before the weather gets really bitter, Block Club Chicago is collecting coats and cold weather apparel for them. Info here.

  17. 17.

    Betty Cracker

    Jocelyn Benson’s story about how citizens saved the day by showing up at the Wayne Co. canvassing meeting and pressuring election officials to do their jobs is a great reminder that we all have a part to play. It would be nice if ordinary citizens could rely on the people we elect and/or pay to handle elections honestly, but in lots of places, that’s sadly not the case.

    I recently read Rachel Maddow’s “Prequel,” which tells the story of what happened the last time fascists made an organized effort at the highest levels of government to overturn U.S. democracy in the 1930s and 1940s. Lots of elected and appointed officials, prosecutors, judges, etc., stood up for democracy, winning some cases and losing others.

    But I was struck most by the heroism of ordinary people who saw what was happening and reported it or stood up to try to stop it. It was really inspiring. They saved democracy.

  18. 18.

    OzarkHillbilly

    SSDD:

    On 4 December, Niani Finlayson called police and “reported that her boyfriend would not leave her alone and then screaming and sounds of a struggle could be heard”, the LA sheriff’s department (LASD) said in a statement. When deputies arrived at the apartment in Lancaster, a city in the northern region of LA county, they could hear screaming, LASD said.

    Finlayson was inside with her nine-year-old daughter and had been injured by her ex-boyfriend and wanted him removed, her family’s attorneys said. The exact circumstances that led to the fatal shooting are unclear and LASD has so far declined to release body-camera footage.

    LASD alleged in a statement that Finlayson had a knife and was threatening her boyfriend, at which point deputy Ty Shelton opened fire. The family disputed the police account, saying Finlayson was clearly a victim of domestic violence who needed help and posed no threat to the officers. The coroner said she died from “multiple gunshot wounds”.

    Finlayson was a mother of two, and her daughter, Xaisha, witnessed the shooting.

    “The police lied that my mom was threatening them,” Xaisha said at a press conference on Thursday alongside her grandparents, calling for Shelton to be prosecuted. “She was my best friend. She was always there for me. It’s unbelievable that she’s gone and she’s not coming back. I miss my mom.” The girl said her two-year-old sister continues to ask where their mother is and she doesn’t know how to respond.

    Adding insult to injury,

    Previously, Shelton killed Michael Thomas, 61, on 11 June 2020 in a similar case. Shelton had been responding to a potential domestic violence call and when the deputies arrived, they demanded he open the door, officials said. Thomas’s girlfriend later said she had been having a verbal argument with Thomas, who had been unarmed, and that he had tried to stop the officers from entering, citing the fourth amendment. Thomas had also been afraid police would shoot him, his family said, and officials later confirmed Thomas had said: “I am now in fear for my life. You guys … just killed somebody.”

    Shelton fatally shot Thomas in the chest. The killing was not captured on camera. The case was one in a series of LASD killings that summer that caused widespread protests, and prosecutors declined to file charges against Shelton. LASD did not respond to questions about Shelton’s previous killing.

    Finlayson’s father summed it up:

    “It just breaks me to my bone. I can’t eat, I can’t sleep, I can’t walk … they didn’t tase her, mace her, baton her or beanbag her. They just shot her like a dog in her own place … and taken so much away from us.”

  19. 19.

    Spanky

    He’s being investigated for sexually assaulting his future sister in law when she was a teenager & student at his family’s Christian school Today his top aides were charged w embezzlement.

    RWNJ BINGO!

  24. 24.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    Tens of events had to go exactly right. We were lucky. My sister and I were texting constantly thru those days and weeks – she was the only person I knew who I felt saw the threat and would admit it- and one of our fears was ONE high profile media person would start to lend election fraud conspiracies legitimacy the “just asking questions” tactic. We felt that would start a snowball effect because they all follow one another.

    Media actually performed quite well. They seemed to understand we were in real peril and they couldn’t play bullshit contrarian games.

  26. 26.

    SFAW

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Dump can throw himself and his entire mobster family into the Sun already.

    I, on the other hand, am hoping for many small, extremely-well-targeted meteorites to take out him/them and all Republicans in Congress and those holding office retrograde states (and in Blue states, too, I guess).

  28. 28.

    Kathleen

    @narya: I’m shedding tears of gratitude and anger. I agree with you. This is just the tip of the iceberg. ETA If it’s possible I loathe and detest the media even more for continuing to feed  notion that these fascists and deviants are “normal”.

  29. 29.

    Scout211

    And in Ken Paxton news,

    Seattle Children’s Hospital is suing the Texas Office of the Attorney General to block the release of patient information after the agency sent the Washington-based health care system an investigative subpoena demanding any patient records of Texas residents who have received transition-related care.

    . . .

    The attorney general’s civil investigative demand came more than two months after a new Texas law went into effect that bans the use of puberty blockers and hormone therapy for transgender youth. Suspecting that Seattle Children’s was providing youth in Texas with puberty blockers or hormone therapy, the attorney general’s office sent the hospital system a subpoena on Nov. 17, demanding the responsive documents by Dec. 7.
    The AG’s office stated in court filings that it was investigating the hospital for potentially violating the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act.

    . . .

    Seattle Children’s Hospital argued that producing the information would violate federal and state health care privacy laws. The hospital’s lawsuit also pointed to Washington’s new “Shield Law” passed earlier this year, which prevents entities based in the northwest state from complying “with a subpoena, warrant, court order, or other civil or criminal legal process for records … related to protected health care services that are lawful in the state of Washington.”

  31. 31.

    Geminid

    @Geminid: There was an interesting follow-on effect, too. Both times Trump campaigned for Loeffler and Perdue in the four weeks leading to the Georgia Senate runoffs, he turned their campaign rallies into whine festivals.

    I give most of the credit for Warnock’s and Ossoff’s victories to a great GOTV operation on the part of Georgia Democrats. But the numbers also show that Trump effectively suppressed the Republican vote.

  32. 32.

    Soprano2

    @apocalipstick: That won’t work if the people present don’t dispute that’s what was said. I know it won’t convince the cult members; they’re hopeless. I think about the “normies”, they’re the ones who need this information. They need to be reminded just how horrible TFG is.

  33. 33.

    SFAW

    @Scout211: ​
     
    Not that I expect a conviction, given the jury pool, but one wonders if Paxton’s criminal charges will ever, finally, make it to trial.

  34. 34.

    Jeffro

    That Dana Houle tweet/question is right on the money:

     

    We’ve never gotten a good explanation for why Michigan Repubs initially praised Whitmer for handling COVID, then flipped 100%. Hard not to wonder if Ronna Romney McDaniel &/or Betsy DeVos picked up the phone & told their home-state Repubs to push a hard partisan line on COVID

    They knew that if Democrats were to receive credit for actually *dealing with* COVID, as opposed to trumpov’s horrific (non)response, the whole house of cards would come crashing down.  trump is most definitely NOT infallible, ya see…psst, he’s actually a complete moron…and nothing exposed that more vividly than how badly he and his maladministration failed the American people in the pandemic.

    So…turn it into a partisan issue and voila!  “Democrats are trying to make you wear a mask/get vaccinated/steal your freedom” becomes the issue, not “trump is a fucking moron, with deadly consequences for the nation”.  Because if the latter becomes the narrative, we’re talking 2020 landslide.  And then the GOP powers-that-be kept that crazy, deadly shit rolling in order to kneecap Biden/Harris as best they could by kneecapping the country.

  35. 35.

    Jeffro

    @Kay:I hope there are tapes of the rest of the calls so we can find out local GOP officials also lied in PA and GA and AZ. They all need to be removed from these positions and barred from election work. They all violated their oaths.

    Amen to this.  Removed, barred, and made (loud, public) examples of.  It’s the only thing that might stop them from trying it again (and again, and again)

  37. 37.

    TriassicSands

    My hemoglobin is dangerously low. I now have to drive 75 miles one way to Seattle (and 75 miles back home) to try to get a transfusion. I have no hope locally since the policy here has nothing to do with the condition of the patient, but is determined by a number that is applied to every individual as though everyone were identical. A single unit of PRBCs won’t help much since it would leave me still severely debilitated. While I was in the hospital in November at the U. of Washington Medical Center, the doctors chose competent care and treated me based on symptoms. They also discovered why giving me only a single unit of blood is poor practice. I received one unit on a Wednesday and bled away that entire gain over night. The result was I had to get another unit on Thursday. When I needed my next transfusion, they went ahead and gave me two units. I can only hope that whatever doctor I see in UWMC ED will accept that same policy. I have my recent experience there working in my favor. (When this problem began 12+ years ago, my Hgb was 8.3 and they gave me four units of blood. Today, I will be lucky if I get two starting with an even lower hemoglobin.)
    I relate this information to encourage anyone who has a serious medical problem to do responsible research into your condition and insist on competent care. Being the strongest possible advocate for oneself in this mindlessly broken system is critical. There are a lot of doctors out there who rely solely on “guidelines” that were developed through large scale studies. The results should give doctors a place to begin treating individuals, but they should never insist, in the face of contrary evidence, on applying guidelines as absolute “rules.” That is malpractice, but common.​
    ​
    ​

  39. 39.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Every time I hear more news, be it about the 2020 efforts or fucking Paxton, I’m incredulous. It’s like they decided that simple bad things weren’t impressive enough. They have to go all out.

  40. 40.

    JWR

    Steven Cheung sounds like a clone of Steven Miller, Election Fraud Division. (Also, they both spell their names with a V.) But this is just nutso, just like other Cheung quotes I’ve seen:

    Steven Cheung, a Trump campaign spokesman, said Trump’s actions “were taken in furtherance of his duty as president of the United States to faithfully take care of the laws and ensure election integrity, including investigating the rigged and stolen 2020 presidential election.”

    “President Trump and the American people have the constitutional right to free and fair elections,” Cheung said.

  41. 41.

    Kay

    I think one of the reasons I was more alarmed than a lot of people is because I live in a 75% Trump county and work in a very conservative court system, where 90% of the lawyers are Republicans.

    What you should know is many, many “mainstream” or “moderate” Republicans believe that African Americans commit voter fraud frequently and to an extent that changes election results. It’s why they were so focused on urban counties- Detroit, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Milwaukee. This is a mainstream belief among Republicans, not a fringe belief. You’ll all remember when George W Bush promoted voter fraud conspiracy theories to the extent of pressuring USA’s and firing them when they wouldn’t play along.

  43. 43.

    p.a.

    @Kay: … Media actually performed quite well…

     

     

    You forgot the *.  Fox etc.  And The Media refuses to fisk them; it’s left to comics and talk show hosts.Γ

  44. 44.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @JWR: Apparently Cheung is unimpressed by the multiple court findings that the election was NOT stolen. How does he propose Trump should have established that? Or does establishing that not matter?

  45. 45.

    Kay

    @JWR:

    Well, then, why did Palmer and Hartmann lie about the call then? Palmer lied in what was probably sworn testimony. Because they knew it was criminal.

  46. 46.

    Kay

    @p.a.:

    They were good though. Jake Tapper was good on this. My husband listens to NPR on the radio and they introduced every “Trump contests the election” with the fact that there was no evidence and no court thus far agreed with him. It was an important piece of why the system didn’t fail. They did a good job.

  49. 49.

    Suzanne

    @narya:

    but I have to admit I am a little surprised just how many people he sucked into his corruption and just how much actual evidence abounds 

    SAME!
    It’s the behavior of a person who so routinely gets away with stuff that they stop really comprehending that they’re getting away with stuff. It’s utter contempt for order, rules, authority…. all that stuff that conservatives say they love and respect.

    I also just don’t really grasp (emotionally — I can observe intellectually) why anyone would see Trump coming and think that doing his bidding would turn out well for them.

  50. 50.

    Eyeroller

    @Kay: ​
     It really goes without saying (but I’m saying it anyway) that this is all part and parcel of the racism of Republicans. I am sure they are just as convinced, if not more so, that Blacks commit welfare fraud on a vast scale (probably bigger than the actual welfare system). Republicans simply cannot tolerate any power-sharing with minorities, especially Blacks. They don’t even like anything that showcases Blacks, like that otherwise-incomprehensible reaction to a lovely tapdancing show.

  51. 51.

    Kathleen

    @Kay: A local Cincinnati news station procreated that chicken in 2012 election. 19 people in Hamilton County were suspected of “voter fraud”. Most of them were cleared, but there was a poll worker in Madisonville who was convicted of submitting an illegal ballot. She was Black, and the station (WCPO) pushed that story for weeks and included in their promos a film clip of the Black woman. I could hear the dog whistle “subtext” (“See valued white suburban/exurban viewers! Black people were trying to steal election to benefit Obama.”)

    It was an insignificant blip that deserved to be in news cycle for 1 day.

    I stopped watching that station after that. The reporter has since retired.

  52. 52.

    narya

    @Suzanne:

    I also just don’t really grasp (emotionally — I can observe intellectually) why anyone would see Trump coming and think that doing his bidding would turn out well for them.

    I think there are a bunch of people who see him playing a “businessman” on TV, who believe that he’s successful (despite the multiple bankruptcies!), and who get stars in their eyes at the thought of someone that successful wanting little old THEM by his side. The “sir” stories fit into that narrative from his side of it. I suspect we’re all susceptible to someone/some type of con, but I think the TIFG con appeals to people who think they deserve to be successful and this-here guy has the secret to it all. Plus he hates the same people they hate.

  53. 53.

    Spanky

    @Kathleen:

    The reporter has since retired.

    Reporters don’t decide what gets aired. That’s a management issue, and you can bet it’s a common theme across markets.

  54. 54.

    Suzanne

    @Eyeroller: I’ve attempted to have meaningful discussions about what you describe with more conservative people I know. I have detected a belief that white people can represent the interests of black people in an elected position, but that black people can’t do a good job representing the interests of white people. I don’t get it.

    I no longer try to have these discussions or to convince anybody of anything. I read that Keanu Reeves will no longer argue with anyone about anything. “You said 2 + 2 = 5? Cool, have a great day.” This is my new strategy.

    (Then I come here and talk shit about stupid people.)

  55. 55.

    cmorenc

    @Scout211:

    A nice report on NBC News about the J6 rioters who have been called undercover Antifa activists by the right for years, including by GOP congress members.  Those purported left wing activists keep getting  “unmasked” as Trump supporters and are being arrested and/or charged.

    Thankfully, bona fide Antifa (or left-wing) activist leaders recognized and headed off any efforts to mount a counter-protest to Trump’s J6 mob – Trump hoped they would show up and then use the likes of the Proud Boys to instigate a violent clash that he could blame on Antifa and invoke the insurrectionist Act to further hold off Congress executing the Electoral count.

  56. 56.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @narya: ​
      He also presents as rich in a way that they can appreciate. Gilt Louis the Roman Numeral furniture, SUV limos, other showy trappings. None of those rugs that look worn out but cost tens of thousands of dollars or old houses with weird plumbing that the snooty people with fancy degrees claim to like.

  59. 59.

    Chief Oshkosh

    William Hartmann can’t comment. He accused Dems of using vaccines & masks to screw up elections…before he died in Dec 2021, unvaccinated, of COVID

    Really doesn’t get any better than that.

  60. 60.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Kathleen: I’m reading Stephen King’s Holly. It takes place in 2021 and that’s the policy the investigator follows when people tell her she should take off her mask because covid is a hoax. Her own mother was a covid denier and recently died of the disease. You can’t convince these people of anything. They’d rather die.

  61. 61.

    Kay

    @Eyeroller:

    This is a good piece on how segregation in Michigan suburbs aligned perfectly with a push by Republicans to capture white Democrats in the upper midwest. The GOP tactic worked like a charm for decades, until actual enforcement of civil rights laws barring housing discrimination started to integrate the suburbs. Trump still carried some of the whiter suburbs but Biden took the intergrated areas. Reagan was the peak. They’ll never reach that success again because there are fewer all white suburbs. 

  62. 62.

    Gin & Tonic

    My dear wife, a normie, asked me yesterday why Rahm Emanuel is involved in the Michigan affair. I was confused for quite some time, until I said to myself “Ronna McDaniel” and “Rahm Emanuel.” Try it.

  63. 63.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Kay:

    They all need to be removed from these positions and barred from election work. They all violated their oaths.

    THIS is what I’m not seeing enough of. All of those people should be charged and prosecuted. But even before that, if they’re being investigated for such misdeeds, they at least need to be removed at least temporarily from positions that involve the vote.

  64. 64.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: What you should know is many, many “mainstream” or “moderate” Republicans believe that African Americans commit voter fraud frequently and to an extent that changes election results.

    I think if you could get them to be honest with you, they’d admit that they believe black people really shouldn’t be voting at all. They seem to think black people voting automatically means fraud. They think all cities are massively corrupt. Once our non-white population reaches over 25% here I expect to start seeing stuff like that about our city. Right now it’s about 10-12%, so they don’t talk about Springfield like that, but they certainly think it about KC and St Louis. The state legislature would like to totally control the governments of those cities, because they think black people are unable to govern themselves.

  65. 65.

    Kay

    Trump said Republicans had been “cheated on this election” and “everybody knows Detroit is crooked as hell,” according to the recordings.

    100% mainstream in the GOP including among local judges. Don’t kid yourself that this is just Trump and the crazies. 70% of Republicans believed Trump because 70% of Republicans believe that black people regularly engage in voter fraud before Trump even entered the party.

  66. 66.

    gene108

    Part of the reason people think Trump’s a successful businessman is he and the media have been promoting that narrative for over 40 years. Even with his multiple bankruptcies and business failures, Trump maintained he was a multi billionaire and didn’t really change his lavish lifestyle.

    ”The Apprentice” show just reinforced a long established narrative, which is why the viewing audience didn’t knew jerk react, “da fuq? Dude’s filed for bankruptcy multiple times. WTF he knows about business?” and tune the show out.

    Edit: “The Apprebtice” just got him more publicity. It didn’t change anyone’s mind about his business acumen.

  67. 67.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Geminid: Yeah, but those two are still suppressing votes. They’re just way, way smarter than Drumpf and his clown show. In fact, they are basically professionals at it. Drumpf was a rank amateur.

  68. 68.

    Suzanne

    @Kathleen: I don’t even note that I disagree anymore. I just fucken turn tail and run. I went to a nail salon about a year and a half ago, and I realized that they were playing pro-Trump rap music. I literally didn’t even know that was a thing that existed. (It was terrible.) I finished up, paid the bill, left a good tip (because I’m not genuinely an asshole), and never went back.

  69. 69.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: I think they were truly shocked that TFG tried to overturn the results of the election. They weren’t listening to him at all, because I wasn’t shocked that he tried to overturn the results – he was telling us that if he didn’t win the results were illegitimate.

  70. 70.

    evodevo

    @Kathleen: Yeah…I was surprised at that, considering 9 is a Scripps station.  I would have expected it from Channel 12, that got bought out by Sinclair (and all the news anchors, who had been there for literally years, quit) …

  72. 72.

    narya

    @Omnes Omnibus: Exactly! I’ve never spent much time around Old Money, but I know it exists, and I know that you basically don’t SEE it. Frankly, I’m sufficiently ignorant of/blind to it that I suspect I wouldn’t know it if it were in front of me.

  76. 76.

    Karen S.

    @satby: I’ve seen a few migrants in my neighborhood holding signs asking for jobs and/or money. They’re usually outside grocery stores and at intersections with lots of traffic. Thanks for that link!

  77. 77.

    Keith P.

    That’s pretty amazing that the POTUS and the head of the GNC *personally* called at least two canvassers to get them to decertify his opponent.

  78. 78.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    I think they finally understood it was real. Remember this?

    A second odd thing happened amid Trump’s attempts to reverse the result: corporate America turned on him. Hundreds of major business leaders, many of whom had backed Trump’s candidacy and supported his policies, called on him to concede.

    This country is a very, very good place to do business and a functioning court system and govermment benefits business people more than anyone. They got a little nervous – even after he stuffed their mouths with tax cuts to shut them down.
    But you know they have the attention spans of gnats so they’re back to supporting him- hoping for another giant cash windfall. They’re not reliable allies in democracy. They can be bought.

  81. 81.

    rikyrah

    @satby:

    TX and FL continue to dump migrants in Chicago, often only with the clothes on their backs.

     

    Since we began to impound buses, they are now flying them in via private plane.

    I think the same thing should happen. Impound the plane, arrest the pilot and crew for human trafficking, and send them to 26th and California, and lose their paperwork for a day or two or three.

  82. 82.

    narya

    @rikyrah: Having been to 26th and California (when I worked for a substance use disorder agency that had a program at Cook County Jail–in the OLD part of it), I second this recommendation.

  83. 83.

    rikyrah

    @Scout211:

    Seattle Children’s Hospital argued that producing the information would violate federal and state health care privacy laws. The hospital’s lawsuit also pointed to Washington’s new “Shield Law” passed earlier this year, which prevents entities based in the northwest state from complying “with a subpoena, warrant, court order, or other civil or criminal legal process for records … related to protected health care services that are lawful in the state of Washington.”

     

    clap clap clap

  84. 84.

    jonas

    @Kay: Most MSM outlets these days will usually qualify some claim Trump made/makes about the 2020 election with “lie” or “misleading” or “unfounded”. But it’s become so “normal” in a sense to call everything SFB says a lie that it’s sort of lost its punch — kind of in one ear out the other.

    Also, one notices in the transcripts of those phone calls, he never says that they have clear evidence of fraud, merely that they can’t allow Biden to win. They had nothin’ and knew it; they just hoped to throw enough sand in the gears at the local, state, and national levels to cause enough chaos that they could somehow pull off a coup.

  85. 85.

    Suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    He also presents as rich in a way that they can appreciate. Gilt Louis the Roman Numeral furniture, SUV limos, other showy trappings. 

    I think there’s two specific aspects to this that you didn’t quite touch on.
    1) His wives have been hot in a stripper-y/low-class way (even though it costs a lot to look like that). Fake boobs and bleached hair and obvious facial plastic surgery. This look in a partner is aspirational to a specific set of men.
    2) He’s had the aesthetic of a family businessman for a long time, and that’s appealing to a lot of people. As opposed to being successful within a larger corporation, he led his own shitty company and kept his kids close.

  86. 86.

    NotMax

    Must admit holding off 100% acceptance (although am 98% there) of the veracity and pedigree of tapes which took three years to surface until Jack Smith and DOJ have time to subpoena and review them.

  87. 87.

    gene108

    @TriassicSands:

    I hope you are able to pull through. I know you’ve been having a lot of health problems lately, with long hospital stays and hope they can get your symptoms under control.

  88. 88.

    AliceBlue

    @Geminid: For anyone interested in a close-up view of the election in Georgia and its aftermath, I recommend Flipped by Greg Bluestein, the Atlanta Journal/Constitution  political reporter.  It’s fascinating (and sometimes hilarious).

  89. 89.

    kindness

    With all this stuff in the news it’s almost like I’m reliving post election 2020 again.  Those weren’t happy times!  Well, other than Joe winning and all.

  91. 91.

    Soprano2

    @Suzanne: It’s the same idea as white men being able to represent women but women not being able to represent white men. The idea is that “white man” is the normal, “generic” person who can represent everyone and isn’t any type of “special class” while literally everyone else is in a “special class”.

  92. 92.

    Kay

    @jonas:

     But it’s become so “normal” in a sense to call everything SFB says a lie that it’s sort of lost its punch — kind of in one ear out the other.

    I don’t really believe that – the “nothing matters” theory. I think Trump started with credibility among most “normie” voters and constantly repeating that he lies about everything changed how people view him. By the end of his single term 65% of people said he was dishonest. That matters. At this point Trump could say something true – uncover something real and nefarious- and most of the country would dismiss it out of hand. Media don’t have to look to an outcome. “Changing minds” shouldn’t
    be their goal. Their role is just to report that these are lies and let people take it from there.

  93. 93.

    Geminid

    @AliceBlue: There were a lot of bad things about the January 6 Insurrection, and one of them was the way it overshadowed the January 5 Senate runoffs.

    That was a fascinating election. And a very consequential one too, because Joe Biden’s first two years would have gone very differently had Warnock and Ossoff not been Senators.

  94. 94.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay: At this point Trump could say something true –

    He is constitutionally incapable of such a feat. Even if he actually did something he could rightfully brag about, he would have to embellish it.

  95. 95.

    M31

    @kindness: Those weren’t happy times! Well, other than Joe winning and all.

    when Harris sent the “we did it Joe” video out my sweetie and I pranced around the house beating pots and pans — I broke my favorite old wooden spoon which I sanded smooth and it now holds pride of place as the Commemorative Biden/Harris Victory Spoon in the utensil holder

  96. 96.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    My husband’s youngest brother is a mainstream, mopderate Republican in Darien CT who works on Wall Street and makes a lot of money. He has never wanted for anything in his life. Born into privilege. Still. He believes black people have “an advantage” in the US because of Democrats and liberals “favoring” them. He genuinely believes this – can get all red faced and shouty about it after a couple of drinks. No amount of privilege is enough. Any gains that go to other people are gains “stolen” from white people.

  97. 97.

    The Thin Black Duke

    I have detected a belief that white people can represent the interests of black people in an elected position, but that black people can’t do a good job representing the interests of white people. I don’t get it.

    More to the point, conservatives really believe that only white people can represent the interests of black people.

  98. 98.

    M31

    @Kay: ​
     

    the greatest and most fun irony of all time would be for Trump to accidentally say something true and for everyone to assume it’s a lie and then he goes to jail for it

    I’d chortle

  99. 99.

    Suzanne

    @Soprano2:

    The idea is that “white man” is the normal, “generic” person who can represent everyone and isn’t any type of “special class” while literally everyone else is in a “special class”. 

    Agreed. And white men apparently exclusively have superior rationality and the ability to reason/make judgment unencumbered by feelings and resentments.

    I learned about Carol Gilligan and the feminist ethics of care a couple of years ago. It really crystallized a lot for me.

  100. 100.

    Kristine

    @narya:

     

    Exactly! I’ve never spent much time around Old Money, but I know it exists, and I know that you basically don’t SEE it.

    When I think Old Money, I envision Pterry’s Dowager Duchess of Quirm, an old woman in old clothes bashing after runaway dragons. The only way to learn who she actually is, is to read her calling card.

  101. 101.

    Scout211

    Attention Betty Cracker:

    A second video has been recovered by police showing Bridget Ziegler, a cofounder of  the conservative Moms for Liberty, engaging in sexual relations with a woman, sources said. It is not known if the woman in the video is the same woman who has alleged she was sexually assaulted by Christian Ziegler. Neither Christian nor Bridget Ziegler have responded to requests for comment from the Trident.

    Why oh why can’t polyamorous sexual partners just be left alooooone!

    /////////s

    ETA:  It’s the toxic hypocrisy.

  102. 102.

    narya

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m gonna go further: at this point, I think his grasp of “facts” is tenuous at best. I think his old con-man habits, and the fact that he got away with bullshitting people for decades (with no consequences), coupled with his declining mental capacity, means that he just spews word salad that has no relationship to the world in which we live.

  104. 104.

    p.a.

    I haven’t had any texts from Nimarata, but her newest ad in the national market goes after Biden’s age, and includes calling Congress “the most exclusive nursing home in America” (w/o) mentioning names or parties, term limits, tests for pols over 75 yo, and mention China as the current boogie man.  (What, no Iran?).  No Putin!😂

    My guess, the age thing resonates in focus groups, so she’s throwing a wide net on the issue.

    Interminable ad before the Haley ad:

    https://www.politico.com/video/2023/12/18/ad-new-generation-nikki-haley-for-president-1173604

  105. 105.

    EarthWindFire

    @Kay: The mainstream GOP attitude on Black voter fraud is the reason ACORN is out of business. No one would believe that an election official would accept a vote in the name of Donald Duck otherwise. But since those people can register voters and be election officials (Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, anyone? Such a coincidence that they were the election officials who got harassed, amirite?)…well, who knows what they might do?

  106. 106.

    Another Scott

    @Kay: If you really want him to explode, casually recommend that he read – and think about – TNC’s The Case for Reparations. Or Schrodinger’s Cat’s posts about Britain looting the riches of India. Or the banksters in the north making fortunes from the tobacco, cotton, sugar, and slave trades.

    “Where you stand depends on where you sit.”

    But part of growing as a human being is looking outside one’s bubble and thinking about what it’s like to be someone else.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  107. 107.

    Ken

    @Soprano2: The idea is that “white man” is the normal, “generic” person

    As many have noted, that was also the assumption in medicine for many years, sometimes with fatal results.

  108. 108.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @M31: I broke my favorite old wooden spoon which I sanded smooth and it now holds pride of place as the Commemorative Biden/Harris Victory Spoon in the utensil holder

    Heh. Good for you.

  109. 109.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @EarthWindFire: ​  I worked in election administration in WI during the 2011 recall elections. One of the agency’s tasks was to verify signatures on the petitions. It turns out that there is at least one Michael Mouse in WI. Also, a Joe Stalin who preemptively called in and told the agency that he did exist and wanted Scott Walker out. Both of those signatures were accepted.​

  110. 110.

    p.a.

    @Kay: I’ve seen barely middle class white get apoplectic abt “welfare cheats, moochers” etc, and point out to them how I don’t understand their lack of anger at corporations and the laws that allow them to devastate whole regions of the country for profit,  make air and water toxic for thousands of people etc.  I mention I NEVER hear them go berserk over these things.

    “That’s different.”

  112. 112.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Suzanne:

    I have detected a belief that white people can represent the interests of black people in an elected position, but that black people can’t do a good job representing the interests of white people. I don’t get it.

    It’s just racism, plain and simple. Sadly, it’s a fundamental truth for US Conservatives that Black People are less intelligent, capable etc.  This is true for ALL of them.  The Moderates, the “Reagan Republicans” and pretty much every Libertarian too, no matter how many times they pledge to swear on a stack of bibles that they don’t even see color.

  113. 113.

    Joe Falco

    @marklar:

    “I was going to be super hard and go punch a antifa terrorist in the face. And I end up being the terrorist,” former West Virginia Councilman Eric Barber, later sentenced to 45 days in prison, said in his FBI interview. “Plot twist, huh?”

    It’s like there’s a glimmer of self-awareness just bubbling below the surface of their minds.

  117. 117.

    Soprano2

    @rikyrah: I wondered why they switched to planes. I agree, they should do the same thing. The irony is most of those people would probably end up in the big cities anyway, but that wouldn’t grab people’s attention like this does.

  118. 118.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Yep, they are highly offended at the thought of any person who isn’t another white man having power over them at all. That’s why I say Obama’s election broke some of these people’s brains – to them it was the ultimate insult that the most powerful person in the world was a black man. To them that was unpossible in any way.

  124. 124.

    Betty Cracker

    @p.a.: I’ve got lazy-ass cousins who truly are moochers and who complain about the same shit. I think at least part of the motivation is to avoid looking in the mirror…

  125. 125.

    Soprano2

    @Eyeroller: They believe that the interests of white men are everyone’s interests, while the interests of any other group are “special interests” that don’t concern them at all.

  127. 127.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @TriassicSands:

    I relate this information to encourage anyone who has a serious medical problem to do responsible research into your condition and insist on competent care. Being the strongest possible advocate for oneself in this mindlessly broken system is critical.

    I am so sorry to hear of your medical issues and how our “system” is adding to, rather that addressing, your problems.
    And I second your statement and go further: Even for less serious medical problems, insist on competent, individualized care.

  129. 129.

    Alison Rose

    @Kristine: The old Craig T Nelson school of thought.

    A couple of years ago, actor Craig T. Nelson appeared on Glenn Beck’s Fox News program to rail against taxes, government, and the lack of fiscal responsibility in society. As the actor argued at the time, he was thinking about no longer paying taxes because he disapproved of public funds rescuing those struggling.

    “They’re not going to bail me out,” Nelson said. “I’ve been on food stamps and welfare. Anybody help me out? No. No.”

  133. 133.

    Lyrebird

    @TriassicSands: The results should give doctors a place to begin treating individuals, but they should never insist, in the face of contrary evidence, on applying guidelines as absolute “rules.”

    Shoot, Triassic,  I am wishing you safe travels and effective treatment.  I am trying to write a book proposal to talk about or maybe rail against this blinkered application of averages (among other things), and your example is yet another flashing neon sign – sorry you’re going through it!!!

  135. 135.

    Soprano2

    @Alison Rose: Atrios says they think welfare is really generous, but then when they have to use it and find out how little you actually get they decide there’s some kind of super secret welfare program for people who aren’t white. It’s insane how they rationalize things even when they have evidence that the opposite is true.

  136. 136.

    Scout211

    Just in: Dark Brandon delivers!

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden is pardoning thousands of people who were convicted of use and simple possession of marijuana on federal lands and in the District of Columbia, the White House said Friday, in his latest round of executive clemencies meant to rectify racial disparities in the justice system.

    The categorical pardon Friday builds on a similar round issued just before the 2022 midterm elections that pardoned thousands convicted of simple possession on federal lands eligible. Friday’s action broadens the criminal offenses covered by the pardon. Biden is also granting clemency to 11 people serving what the White House called “disproportionately long” sentences for nonviolent drug offenses.

    Biden, in a statement, said his actions would help make the “promise of equal justice a reality.”

  137. 137.

    George

    There is a significant segment in any country that is pro-fascist. Today’s GOP is filled with such people. I used to think that Americans in general were different, that because of the democratic traditions of the country the overwhelming majority of voters would stay away from the loose gravel at the edge of the abyss, and that even conservative Republicans would put democracy and plurality above the interests of the far right.

    I was wrong, and it has altered the way I view anyone who supports TIFG. I don’t see them as misled rubes. I see them for what they are: fascists who are, for now, toned-down versions of what you might have seen trotting around Berlin in the 1930s. It has all become and Us or Them proposition.

    Yeah, there is racism and misogyny mixed in with their beliefs, but first and foremost is the fascism. Their driving force is the belief in their own sense of superiority, even if they are overweight crackers in the south or insurance salesmen in Des Moines.

    When that sense of self-superiority and devaluing of plurality have blossomed, as happened under TIFG, changing their minds is impossible.

  138. 138.

    Lyrebird

    @The Thin Black Duke: ​
     

    Sometimes I think that white conservatives resent the very existence of Black people and still resentfully wonder why they’re not getting a medal for forbearance or something.

    Wishing you and the Duchess the best of holidays.

  139. 139.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Soprano2: They’d only have to do it ONE time and there wouldn’t be a single US commercial pilot who would participate. Sure a felony conviction won’t prevent you from holding a pilot’s certificate, in general, but if the commission of the felony occurred as part of your exercising the privileges granted by your certification, you might just find yourself in suspension, and getting the privilege returned to you can take a long, long time.

  141. 141.

    ARoomWithAMoose

    @Soprano2: “I wondered why they switched to planes.”
    The flight is quick enough it’s unlikely the locals will know it’s coming and get the needed paperwork/law enforcement together to seize the plane on the ground before it leaves, and the airport itself is treated like federal land, so local anti-human trafficing laws may not be enforceable.

  142. 142.

    Soprano2

    @Alison Rose: To him that wasn’t people helping him out, those were benefits he got by being a taxpayer. That’s how they think about it, those “blah” people have obviously never paid taxes in their lives thus are getting an unearned benefit. /s/s/s/s/s/ It’s crazy.

  144. 144.

    Miss Bianca

    You know, I still find myself gobsmacked that people like this actually RECORD THEMSELVES having illicit sexytimes – at least, illicit according to their worldview. Don’t they EVER stop to think, “Gee, what if this got out onto the nightly news or social media?”

  147. 147.

    Kathleen

    @Suzanne: Ugh. That sounds awful. Years ago while getting a hair cut my beautician, who I knew was staunch Catholic, started talking about evils of abortion. My sole thought was “do not disagree with a woman with scissors close to your face”.

  148. 148.

    Kathleen

    @evodevo: I voted early at Hamilton County BOE in 2012. I recall being angry because Republicans and media had been ganging  up on President Obama non stop (what’s new, right?). Outside of the building was a young Black woman holding a hand made sign that said “Stop Disrespecting My President”.  A good percentage of the voters standing in line were Black. The energy felt like many of them agreed with that young woman’s sign and their resolve to use their power to vote was palpable. It was a powerful experience.

  150. 150.

    Kathleen

    @Kay: FWIW my 25 year old grandson said he supported Trump in 2020 but after watching the Capitol Riot he was disgusted with Trump and no longer support him.

  151. 151.

    Another Scott

    @George:

    OTOH, one could argue that the totally crazy GQPers are a small minority even in their own caucus. PewResearch.org (from January 2023):

    The Freedom Caucus members and allies have a median DW-NOMINATE score of +0.681, substantially higher than the median for all other House GOP members (+0.455). The least conservative Freedom Caucus-aligned member, in fact, is still more conservative than the median non-Freedom Caucus House Republican. And 10 Freedom Caucus members are more conservative than the most conservative nonmember.

    In January 2021, the Freedom Caucus was almost unanimous in opposing the certification of President Joe Biden’s victory over former President Donald Trump. Of the 40 current Freedom Caucus members and allies who were serving at that time, 38 supported at least one objection to counting Biden’s electoral votes. A smaller share of all other House Republicans seated at the time (about 60%) did so.

    The biggest problem is that the House (and Senate) are too closely divided for the majorities in each body to easily win on policy. Any nutjob can throw gravel in the gears. If Democrats had 250+ seats in the House, nobody would care about 20-40 nutjobs on the other side.

    It’s not an easy problem to solve (or it would have been solved already), but the path forward is clear. We need more people voting for every seat, and we need clear voting and vote-counting rules so that fringe monsters can’t take control.

    Hang in there.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  152. 152.

    rikyrah

    @Suzanne:

    I’ve attempted to have meaningful discussions about what you describe with more conservative people I know. I have detected a belief that white people can represent the interests of black people in an elected position, but that black people can’t do a good job representing the interests of white people. I don’t get i

    That’s bullshyt.

    It’s just the opposite, and they know it.

    They know, by our very nature, when Black people legislate, they think of the ENTIRE community, and design programs that way.

    Instinctively, they know that to be true. We don’t try to find ways to cut out swaths of the American populace.

    They know that Black people will INCLUDE everyone…and THAT is why they try to stop them from becoming legislators.

     

    It’s the reason why Obamacare was the first expansion of the American Social Safety Net that DID NOT have in its design – the exclusion of a swath of the American Populace.

    It took the Roberts Court to do that.

     

    Which is why, we have states that haven’t expanded Medicaid to this day. Because, it would help THOSE PEOPLE.

  153. 153.

    Kathleen

    @p.a.: The media seem to love her. A South Asian woman (but not THAT South Asian woman) they can finally embrace and feel good about themselves.

  154. 154.

    rikyrah

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I’m reading Stephen King’s Holly. It takes place in 2021 and that’s the policy the investigator follows when people tell her she should take off her mask because covid is a hoax. Her own mother was a covid denier and recently died of the disease. You can’t convince these people of anything. They’d rather die.

     

    and, when I realized that…

    No more arguing with them.

    Just permanent ignore.

  155. 155.

    Ruckus

    @narya:

    Many people like money. They like having it, being near it, they like that people give them more. They often like money more than anything else in life. SFB has money. Very, very likely a lot less than he tells people he has, but still he has money. And if he doesn’t have cash he has his name on the property records of not an insubstantial amount of real estate, some of it actually valuable even with his name on it. Of course in SFB math it’s worth a lot more than real human math. His major problem is – him. Who and what he is, in real human terms. It’s not good, some of it is likely illegal, just because it’s him. His world and reality do not cross often. His valuation of himself is just a tad outside reality. In either monetary or just plain human terms. And he gets support of a lot of people that think they’d like to be him. It is possible that they are delusional.

  156. 156.

    Ruckus

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Old as the hills.

    People want what they want. Some will lie to anyone and everyone to have or think they have what they want. And they often want what there is no way for them to acquire. As old a story as humanity itself. I believe that it’s made worse by the fact that we have a lot of people that have more money than they could spend in a lifetime, much/most of which was likely gotten from the sweat and labor of others.

  157. 157.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: You can’t convince these people of anything. They’d rather die.

    if you confront them with facts and logic, as we progressives are wont to do, you are IMO absolutely correct. They don’t trust facts[1] and they don’t grok logic[2].

    These are by and large people who put their faith in narratives. Instead of trying to explain how Democratic programs will make their lives better, Thuglicans tell them stories to explain why their lives are so bad, and who to blame for it.

    To reach them we need to provide, not a counter-narrative but our own stories. And I think that’s doable. We could explain why the post-WW2 “heaven on earth” happened and why it was always going to be transitory. We could show them how TPTB have been setting them at the throats of fellow citizens who (but for their gender or skin color or sexual inclinations or culture of origin) by all rights ought to be their natural allies, when the real reasons they and theirs haven’t gotten what they think they deserve are bound up with those forces of darkness that are manipulating them.

    Yes, it’s helped those forces that people have an innate fear of The Other and a longing for status that is too easily ginned up at The Others’ expense. But it’s not the whole story, and some fraction of the Trumpian base either knows that deepdown inside or can learn if if they hear a different plausible narrative.

    Not a large fraction. But if we could convince, say, 1 in 50 of them to re-evaluate, that 2% could easily be the difference between a squeaker election victory that leaves everything up in the air, and a solid win that puts democracy back in the driver’s seat at least for awhile.

    Unfortunately every time I look at this good progressive blog I wonder if it’s possible. Even the best narrative cannot change minds if presented by someone who starts with the attitude that the target audience is stupid and/or bigoted and/or dishonest and/or downright evil. Start instead from the position that we are all walking this earth for a finite time and all hope to make things better for ourselves and our loved ones, however misguided the methods.

    As a fundamentalist coworker once said to me, “Hate the sin, not the sinner” – which acknowledges that sinners are at least potentially redeemable, capable of seeing the light and changing their behaviors. Any of us who’s not able to get past their distaste for our opponents’ behaviors would best not try to persuade them otherwise – it would only harden their attitudes and reinforce their beliefs that people like us are the problem – and they will all still have as many votes as each of us does. But those of us who can secularize that fundamentalist viewpoint should be encouraged to try. I intend to try.

    /climbs down from soapbox

    [1] Or science, which they confuse with technology (the product, sometimes long delayed. of science) as something that is supposed to be absolute truth and “work as advertised.” They misunderstand that science is a process that is frequently wrong but capable of self-correction. Lincoln’s favorite humorist once said, “It ain’t so much what we don’t know as what we know that just ain’t so.” I often reflect ruefully on how about 2/3 of what I learned as an astrophysics student 50 years ago now falls into that category…

    [2] Most especially, probability and statistics. The inability to understand how they work (and trust me, it is  not at all simple) bids fair not only to impoverish the gamblers amongst us but possibly wreck what passes for civilization in the process. IMO Edward Teller was wrong when he said “the failure to emotionally comprehend the exponential function” would doom the human race, but the inability to grasp probability and statistics on a gut level. YMMV

  158. 158.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:

    Anyone who thinks money is the height of social measure can be bought – for the “right” amount. I imagine that it often isn’t worth the price but still that is humanity. Money is our measure of stature as well as being the base to every concept in humanity. That money can take different forms, from actual currency to property holdings to numbers in a bank, to the status of having a lot of it. Take the Forbes 400. How many of those people made their money off the backs of others? I’d guess about 99.999%.

  160. 160.

    wjca

    @Soprano2: Having the recording helps a lot, because they can deny things until people can hear it with their own ears.

    What I really don’t understand is why it took so long for this tape to surface.

  161. 161.

    rikyrah

    @ARoomWithAMoose:

    The flight is quick enough it’s unlikely the locals will know it’s coming and get the needed paperwork/law enforcement together to seize the plane on the ground before it leaves, and the airport itself is treated like federal land, so local anti-human trafficing laws may not be enforceable.

    I disagree. How the phuck do you fly to OHARE AIRPORT…not, some podunk airport…and they can’t get them on the ground.

    Come on, now.

  163. 163.

    JustRuss

    @Kay:she said Trump thanked her for her service and told her goodnight- and she also lied to the January 6th committee.

    Oh come on, doesn’t every POTUS call  the Board of Canvassers of all (checks notes) 3143 US counties after the election to thank them for their service?

  164. 164.

    dr. luba

    What I, as a life-long Detroiter, find the most amazing about this story is that is was broken by the Detroit News–our local GOP/conservative paper.  It’s a Christmas miracle!

  165. 165.

    Paul in KY

    @OzarkHillbilly: Coulda thrown that knife like a trained Ninja and taken out 2 or 3 of the responding officers. They’ve seen it done in a movie or two.

    Sarcasm above, but that’s what they’ll say.

  169. 169.

    Paul in KY

    @Suzanne: His kids stayed close cause they were such losers that being his minions were the only way they’d ever get that rich lifestyle.

    I see your point on the dumbasses thinking it was ‘loving’.

  171. 171.

    Paul in KY

    @Kay: What a jerk/asshole! Anyone who says Blacks have it easier than Whites in this USA is A) completely nuts B) a racist liar C) Both

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