Usually this is the domain of right-wing whingers. But here’s a podcast ‘Marxist’ guy with 31,000 twitter followers:
Can’t imagine why people think this isn’t a great economy. Lunch for three at McDonald’s: $44!!
— Doug Henwood (@DougHenwood) December 29, 2023
lmao it was a rest stop McDonalds. You can easily drop $45 for 3 people there. It's a convenience stop (so you don't have to go out of your way 5 minutes for normal priced food). Everyone knows it's a ripoff. Kind of an important detail to leave out there by the peckerhead guy. https://t.co/OFS5rCWB7r pic.twitter.com/XIRpP8WmxN
— Centrism Fan Acct ?? (@Wilson__Valdez) December 30, 2023
Wow Doug McDonald's must have an excellent brand with very good marketing and deliver on whatever they're promising to get sophisticated customers like you to patronize their restaurant time after time, even at these higher prices https://t.co/vhkgBcFUKC
— The okayest poster there is (@ok_post_guy) December 29, 2023
I just went to the leftist rally, it was so inspiring, thousands of people chanting "mcdonalds cheeseburgers must be cheaper" all in unison https://t.co/HHqWrwqxev
— Will Stancil (@whstancil) December 29, 2023
"No prices should ever go up; companies should be forbidden from raising prices; all price increases are per se illegitimate" has become this weird semi-reactionary political fixation for a LOT of people, I'm learning https://t.co/rdlWNAylRi
— Will Stancil (@whstancil) December 30, 2023
Remember when “we” announced in unison that paying a few bucks more for our fast-food meals was just fine, as long as the fast-food workers got something closer to a living wage? Well, I guess that statement is no longer operative…
People who eat the most fast food are high income young people which just so happens to be the exact demographic of every Twitter progressive whining about how expensive McDonalds is while ignoring wage hikes in the fast food industry
You're a stereotypehttps://t.co/Autvm6H7eG https://t.co/bUKXYKJX7X
— Swann Marcus (@SwannMarcus89) December 30, 2023
this is why being a data/policy nerd is good, because you can discern what is true and what is an ugly, anti-poor stereotype https://t.co/rRGNzEOvEF pic.twitter.com/tBMzicvhny
— Armand Domalewski (@ArmandDoma) December 30, 2023
From each according to their ability: has no abilities
To each according to their needs: I NEED to play video games and consume product and have my loans paid off
It’s the perfect system
— Chris Sonnenberg (@CSonnenberg6) December 30, 2023
mrmoshpotato
Stop bitching about the price of McTrashass’s and order a Whopper through the Burger King app on Whopper Wednesdays. Also, better fries.
matt
so the useful idiots are collaborating with their bosses, is what I’m seeing here.
Splitting Image
I recall someone telling me back in the far distant past that if the political position you are holding is a good one, you don’t have to lie about it to convince people you are right.
I imagine this includes lies of omission too. I’ve heard at least half a dozen of these David Brooks wannabes tell a tale of woe about buying fast food this year, and they’ve all left some essential information out of the story. This instance isn’t as bad as neglecting to mention he bought a couple of whiskeys with his burger, so Brooks’ job is safe for the moment, but still.
John Revolta
“I got ripped off at an Interstate fast food joint! Thanks a lot Biden!”
Christ what an asshole
SpaceUnit
MAGA trash having to choose between McDonalds and meth. Poor things.
Origuy
This reminds me of the kerfuffle about New York State trying to force Chick-Fil-A to stay open on Sundays. What get left out is that the only locations in dispute are the ones at toll road rest stops. CFA should never have gotten the contracts for them.
Brachiator
@mrmoshpotato:
Food prices are increasing. Fast food and restaurant prices are currently rising faster than typical groceries. But this is affecting the entire fast food industry, not just McDonald’s.
And costs have been rising for a number of years. Here in Southern California, a number of my favorite restaurants finally went under during the pandemic.
Also I make note of news stories that are smart enough to avoid blaming higher wages for increased prices.
Splitting Image
@SpaceUnit:
This fellow isn’t actually MAGA. He’s a “Democratic Socialist”. An understandable mistake.
Jay
@Splitting Image:
so why isn’t he cooking a free range, grass fed burger, with avocado slices on a whole wheat chibatta bun with virgin olive oil fries at home for a faction of the price.?????
SpaceUnit
@Splitting Image:
But clearly an independent thinker.
mrmoshpotato
@Splitting Image:
Are you familiar with horseshoe theory?
mrmoshpotato
@Jay: Mmmmmm
wjca
We tend to simplify politics to be a line from right to left. In fact, it is more like a circle: the far left and the far right exhibit some amazing similarities. Differences, certainly. But a lot of similarities as well.
EDT: mrmoshpotato got there first.
wjca
Because cooking (not to mention shopping) would require him to actually, you know, do work. Oh, the horror!
SpaceUnit
@wjca:
Yeah. I was wrong. This was a Democratic Socialist angry about being forced to choose between McDonalds and meth to make ends meet. Huge difference.
ant
Mc’D’s have been enshitifed for decades now.
Older people will remember that food there used to be a lot better years ago:
The fries were best in town, and worth the trip on their own. But then they cheapened their frying oil. The nuggets used to be crispy. The McChicken sandwich was amazing, but it was ruined too. The fish sandwich gets only half a slice of cheese product now.
The pies were like molten lava inside.
Their Coke Cola was better before they enshittified in order to switch to corn syrup, in the “New Coke” debacle.
The Big Mac has smaller beef patties now.
The ice cream machines never work.
EVERYTHING there is nasty.
SpaceUnit
@ant:
Haven’t eaten there in a couple of decades, but their fries were always crap.
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop eating MickeyDs
ant
@SpaceUnit: nope.
they used to be good. the switch happened in the 90’s
SpaceUnit
@ant:
They were always undercooked. And always seasoned with sugar and salt.
Blech.
Martin
We got In-N-Out for 4 people for $18 tonight.
McDs is milking their franchisees.
kalakal
Last time I had them McDonalds’ fries were about 40% salt
SpaceUnit
Eating McDonald’s fries was like eating white underpants.
And don’t get me started on their rancid ketchup.
mrmoshpotato
@SpaceUnit:
Limp, undercooked crap. Even if you ask for no salt (so they gotta make a fresh batch), their fries still suck.
ETA – also, their hamburger buns are too sugary, and overpower the taste of the beef unless you get a triple burger.
Anne Laurie
They stopped using beef tallow in the fryers, and switched to hydrogenated veggie oil(s). At the time (late 1980s, IIRC) it was promoted as ‘healthier’, but it did ruin the taste of the fries.
(As both my friends & my wide arse will tell you, I am *not* all that fussy about potato products, but I don’t bother with McD fries any more. Sonic’s tater tots, on the other hand… )
Baud
Old White Dudes of the World Unite!
Ksmiami
Sad- as someone who’s road tripped all over, there are so many interesting and better places to eat than at nasty rest stops- also, you can actually bring good food along if you’re pressed for time. I would never spend 44 dollars for fast food- gross. Who are these whiny babies?
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
@Martin: MickeyD is overpriced. White Castle (cheddar cheese rings are to die for), Jack N Box, KFC have a tasty menu at a good price.
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
Cheers to all Juicers bringing in the New Year on Christmas Island 🌏🕛🎉🇰🇮
Joey Maloney
@ant: Funny you mention those ice cream machines and Cory Doctorow’s coinage “enshittification” together, since there’s a story around the machines which touches on another of Doctorow’s favorite hobbyhorses, the DMCA and Right To Repair:
https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/
NotMax
Last time tried any (so-called) food at McDonald’s, Nixon was president. Refused to give them business forevermore after being served rotted meat.
Hob
Calling Doug Henwood a “podcast guy” gives the impression that he’s some rando spouting off half-assed received ideas; unfortunately, he’s an experienced and knowledgeable journalist spouting off half-assed received ideas. Henwood was a solid political writer who worked the economics beat from a left angle for decades (including a long stint at The Nation when it was actually good) and really has no excuse to be this stupid.
eclare
@Joey Maloney:
Wow. And I thought cleaning out the soft serve machine every night at Hardee’s was tough.
Hob
@Joey Maloney: I sure do wish Doctorow had picked a less stupid way to make up a term for a reasonably useful concept. I know he doesn’t care what I think, but it will never cease to bug me how he added an “en-” for no reason except not quite getting how words work or wanting it to sound fancier— plus there are SO many other ways a thing can be shitty, just saying something’s been made shittier doesn’t do much to convey the specific business idea he’s talking about. It’s like deciding that since a Ponzi scheme involves taking money, now the term “money-taking” should always mean a Ponzi scheme.
Betty Cracker
We need political labels more concise and descriptive than “left” and “progressive” in a timeline where an alleged DSA twit who calls himself “Hamas Floyd” is dragging Stancil over fast food prices. Maybe “dirtbag left” still works.
Hob
@Hob:
Meant to add: Henwood has been nuts for some time, it’s not a recent thing (he wrote a Clinton-smear book in 2015, which even The Nation called him out for), I just mean that unless I’m misremembering he really did have a legit career for a good while and knew his shit; podcasting was a late move.
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
@Hob: It happens. Hitchens used to be okay and then he went nuts. From a pacifist Naderite to a bloodthirsty neocon warmonger overnight.
Freemark
@wjca: About the only significant difference between Stalin and Hitler was the stash.
raven
@NotMax: There is one less than 200 yards from out house. We’ve lived here for 25 years and the only time I was near the door is when out neighbor came over and told me Raven was begging for food there!
raven
@Martin: Did you get a shirt?
satby
I seldom eat fast food, and have McDonalds less than once a year. The amount of salt they use makes even my fingers start to bloat by the time I finish the meal. Even without the fries.
BethanyAnne
It’s like these people expect that, since inflation is slowing, prices are going to drop. I’m no economist, but I think we’d actually have to experience deflation for that to happen, and actual economists have assured me (and everyone else) that I don’t want that.
We chose inflation over people dying in the pandemic. Dump a shitton of money into the economy, and guess what, prices rise. It was the right choice, and I would argue we should have done more of it. Now we pay, and that’s just part of the deal. Wages have gone up, too, but I don’t hear fuckos like this complaining about that. Corporations all bragged in their financial announcements about how good their bottom line has been doing. You don’t get that delta, and wages actually going up without them raising prices.
And, shit, I eat at McDonalds. How the hell do you spend $44 on 3 people? In my area, a “meal deal” is about $10. That’s $30.
satby
But I will agree that the people I know who eat fast food the most have much more disposable income than me. And appalling taste in food choices. And they’re diabetic with high cholesterol.
Tony Jay
@Betty Cracker:
That ‘horseshoe theory’ wallop has the attraction of being simple enough to make lazy people feel smart, but it really doesn’t stand up. The real-life Left despises the ugly faux-populism of the Right and has always been at the forefront of the fight against it. Where you do get crossover potential there’s almost always a paycheque from some anti-Government sugar daddy in the story and a scripted template hammered out by bonus-hungry people in suits around a polished walnut table. That’s not ‘The Left’, that’s targeted marketing.
At the end of the day, it’s politically convenient for some paladins of the mushy middle to dismiss the entire Left as horseshoe sympathisers by nutpicking a tiny number of fakes and amplifying their nonsense, but it’s just as wankerish as Ivy League Spartacists in Red Brigade Cosplay slagging Biden as an enemy of the working class, and it appeals for the same reasons. It’s easy, it avoids difficult conversations and it makes them feel better about themselves. No one’s under any obligation to pretend it’s anything more substantial than that.
There’s no real cast-iron theory of why politics makes strange bedfellows, but IMHO if one ever does get graphed out it’ll probably bear more of a resemblance to the old D&D alignment chart (Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, Etc) than any satisfyingly simple horseshoe bollocks.
Some people just want to make the world burn, some people just want to put fires out. It’s their reasons for wanting to do these things that count. Someone who wants to torch synagogues and someone who wants to cook BBQ for asylum seekers both need lighters, but that doesn’t make them buddies anymore than someone who works in conflict resolution to bring opposing sides together is simpatico with a control-freak who wants to drive anyone who disagrees with their narrow ideology out of the room.
Nothing is simple, except when it is. Everything that matters takes hard work, except when it doesn’t. And no one is ever going to be right about everything, no exceptions. That’s my theory and I’m sticking with it until a better one turns up.
bjacques
“I just went to the leftist rally, it was so inspiring, thousands of people chanting “mcdonalds cheeseburgers must be cheaper” all in unison”
No, they were chanting “ketchup packets will be free, from the river to the sea”.
lowtechcyclist
The answer to “I was driving on an interstate. Should I have brought a cooktop?” was simple, and I’m surprised nobody in that Xitter thread nailed him on it.
The MickeyD’s prices were high because it was at a rest stop, where they’ve basically got a captive market, and can gouge the shit out of the people who stop there.
But interstates and other limited-access highways have these things called ‘exits.’ You aren’t stuck with buying gas and food at a rest stop, you can find an exit where you can do that. He was buying a meal for three, so one of his two passengers could have had their phone out, looking for an exit with lots of dining choices.
Now IME the bathrooms are usually nicer at the rest stop, but okay then: you’re paying that premium for the nicer bathrooms. It’s what’s called a ‘tradeoff.’ Life is full of them.
Frankensteinbeck
@Tony Jay:
Not in America. This may have been true a hundred years ago, but for the last two decades at least our organized Left are cosplayers dedicated to convincing young idealists to opt out of the system. Take a good look at Bernie Sanders’ campaign for president – partly him, but more so his organized supporters – and you’ll see how thick misogyny* and contempt for civil rights is in those circles. I hope England is totally different.
*Fun fact, the 1997 hit Your Woman is a commentary about how women were treated in the Marxist circles the writer socialized in.
Tony Jay
@Frankensteinbeck:
That’s a fair enough point, but I’d say that anyone who calls themselves ‘on the Left’ while marinating in misogyny and racism isn’t actually ‘on the Left’, because those things are completely antithetical to what being ‘on the Left’ is all about. Does this brush up against ‘No True Scotsmanism’? Probably. But it doesn’t mean I’m entirely wrong. I’m not going to toss two centuries of Trade Unionism, collective action and civil rights expansion on the failed pile just because the people who fought for them were quite often flawed.
And just look at Sanders’ campaign. Lots and lots of privileged gobshites there seeking easy answers to complicated problems and looking for familiar enemies to explain why their spiel wasn’t selling. How many of those people were actually on the payroll of the same people funding the modern Far-Right? Doing the same job as undercover cops sent into activist groups to push radicalism and spread chaos? Horseshoe doesn’t apply to those people as much as Mole theory.
At the same time, a lot of what Sanders was saying made sense, because of course it did. Leftwing, progressive answers to problems caused by Rightwing ideology are always attractive to people looking for something inspirational to believe in. It’s sort of a pity that the messenger was so flawed, but OTOH, the Democratic Party is a lot further to the Left now than it was a decade ago. Sanders didn’t make that happen (really, really didn’t) but it’s arguable that the direction his candidacy came from made space within the Democratic Party for a lot of those ideas to become less electorally frightening to moderates.
Again, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m far from an expert on the history of the US Left, but I always come back to the same mantra. Nothing is simple. If it was I’d be God-Emperor and all those of ill-intent would rightly tremble before my fury. Life’s unfair that way. But easy answers and broad brush dismissals are the tropes of the pub bore, and I’m fucking tired of those people having the loudest megaphone.
Baud
@Tony Jay:
I see the horseshoe theory as more about personality than policy. And a common enemy in the curve part of the show.
p.a.
Didn’t know the economic demographics of McD patrons wasn’t that low. Maybe “middle class teen” effect? Teens will eat anything. I eat at a fast food once a month max, and all the burgers are swill, if you want to taste beef. If you like mayoketchupmustard&soggyvegetables, they’re fine. The chicken sandos at any of them approach o.k. territory. Never brave enough to try fish. And fish with processed cheese food on it?🤢
Don’t want to come off as a food snob; I’m still in mourning over the loss of BK’s 1970-era Yumbo- just hold the lettuce & tomato.
They brought it back once and, as you might expect, fucked it up. Cheaper ham I think.
And I like Popeye’s.
Tony Jay
@Baud:
I get that. You can be Chaotic Left and do much of the same damage as someone who is Chaotic Right, even if you think you’re doing good. You can also be Centrist Evil. People are all over the show, and change on a dime.
My main objection to the horseshoe idea is the smug inevitability of it. “Oh, you’re very Left wing? That means you’re almost aligned with the Nazis, doesn’t it? Not like me. I’m so Centrist I’m bound to be the right sort of right.”
It’s so lazy and meaningless I’m surprised the FTFNYT hasn’t got a weekly column devoted to it.
LiminalOwl
@David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch: But was he ever not a misogynist?
Baud
@Tony Jay:
In the U.S., liberals tend to hold the left in higher regard than they do the centrists, and too often fail to see that some lefties are inimical to liberal interests. Kind of like how liberals prop up the New York Times.
JR
I suppose there is a silver lining in that the stereotype that fast food is the domain of poor people is not quite as universally held as it used to be.
Anyway
@Baud:
Who are you thinking of here? Any examples? I am more familiar with hippie-punching from liberals and struggling to find leftists held in high regard …
Tony Jay
@Baud:
Terminology, man. It’s bonkers. I’d have said that most Centrists call themselves Liberals.
Let’s just say we’re all Baudists and move on to the Glorious Revolution phase, eh?
Baud
@Anyway:
BJ isn’t representative IMHO. We’re more likely to call out anyone.
Baud
@Tony Jay:
People like Manchin and Sinema wouldn’t call themselves liberal. But, yeah, “liberal” tends to be a fuzzy and diverse category of folks.
Kay
I bring food on longer car trips, usually toasted whole wheat bread with peanut butter plus ice water and ginger ale, apple or banana. I always buy coffee on the road but lately I’m a tea kick and road tea choices are terrible so now I bring a thermos with tea.
I just this week texted to my youngest (who is living off campus this year and claims he is struggling to afford food) that he should buy a “loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter” which is embarrassing even for me and I should have said it rather than texted it.
Doug Henwood is the worst kind of scolding Lefty. Ugh. This whole post reminds me why I’m glad I quit Twitter.
Anyway
@lowtechcyclist:
Yep, he was talking about options on the interstate — prices there are always jacked up. Dumb to hold that up as a data point. Off the interstate there are better options and values than McD’s. Best to ignore the doofus.
Tony G
A substantial portion of “The Left” are de-facto supporters of the right-wing, because what they REALLY hate are liberals. I don’t know (and don’t care) whether this guy is really upset because he’s made the amazing discovery that interstate highway rest stops charge high prices, or whether he’s just making stuff up — but this is exactly the type of story that fits into the “Biden made my prices too high” narrative. This guy is worse than useless.
Kay
I do like Will Stancil though. I’m sorry he changed his profile picture – the sweater he had on in the former pix was classic Minnesota dork sweater – I love those! :)
Chris T.
@BethanyAnne:
That’s more or less correct. As with inflation, deflation doesn’t just mean “one price changed” or even “a bunch of prices changed” (up = inflate, down = deflate) but rather a sort of wholesale ongoing pattern.
That’s … trickier.
Food inflation or deflation is markedly different from durable goods inflation or deflation, for one simple reason: you can put off replacing your washing machine for years (by repairing the old one) if need be, but you can’t put off eating for years. “I’ll just starve myself for 2 years, then pig out for the next two!”
When things like furniture, or even cars or houses, seem to get cheaper every year—deflationary conditions—people will put off buying stuff. Why spend thousands of bucks now if you’ll save $1000 by buying later? But since your spending is my income (if I’m the furniture or car or house maker), this kind of deferral can spiral out of control. “The economy”, which is a byproduct of all those individual decisions of what to spend when and how, shrinks and slows and grinds down and down and before you know it you’re in a depression.
On the other hand, if the washer breaks, repairs look expensive and iffy, and a new one today will be $1000 but next month it’ll be $1020, might as well buy it now. Mild inflation keeps a lid on the “limp along in hopes of a better deal tomorrow” behavior.
Out-of-control inflation is of course also bad: if the washer is $1000 today but unpredictably expensive tomorrow and later, planning goes out the window and people rush to the store with a wheelbarrow full of money or whatever. So we (whoever “we” might be) give the Federal Reserve the impossible dual mandate of “maintain stable (mildly inflating) prices” and “keep employment as full as possible”.
Betty Cracker
@Tony Jay: FWIW, I agree and see that pattern playing out in U.S. politics too. It’s not rare to see it in this forum, though I’ve given up my campaign to call it out since it’s pointless.
The Pale Scot
@Kay:
There are small tea kettles you can use in your car
Chris T.
@Tony Jay:
My brush is miles wide!
Baud
@The Pale Scot:
I should invent a car microwave.
Kay
@The Pale Scot:
Oooh. Like an electric kettle? I might need one.
I brought the thermos every winter day when I worked at the post office so it was a trip back in time hauling it out again.
The Pale Scot
@Baud:
Somebody already did it
Microwave 12V Electric Oven Fast Heating Picnic Box For Travel
Princess
@Betty Cracker: I agree too. The “Left” is vast and diverse and includes everyone from those trying to make real change, supporting unions and promoting universal health care, all the way to trust fund kids whose life is being Twitter activists.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I eat at McDonalds in airports. I get a Happy Meal.
Tony Jay
@Chris T.:
That’s the Bob Ross in you talking. 🤣
TS
New Year is awash with Fire Works over Sydney Harbor. An hour later in my town
Best for New Year from down under. May we yet see more spent in peace than in war
The Pale Scot
@Kay:
electric tea kettle for car
Lotsa crap from Temo, but there are good ones out there
RevRick
@mrmoshpotato: He’s complaining about the prices at an interstate rest stop. There’s a reason why there’s fierce competition to get these franchises, because they’re opportunities to hose captive consumers. This has always been the case.
BretH
@Joey Maloney: A most excellent story. Many thanks!!!
Kay
@The Pale Scot:
Thank you. OTR truck drivers have whole little kitchens in the cab now – they don’t just assemble, they cook.
evodevo
@ant: Yep…back in the Sixties they were made from fresh potatoes and fried in animal fat…absolutely scrumptious and, of course, bad for your health. But as a once a week treat when I could get out of the dorm, they were heaven…
Kay
I think higher food prices reward different behavior than dirt cheap food prices did – less prepared/fast food, more planning, knowing more about food- how to buy it affordably, how to prepare it- and that will ultimately be better for people of all income levels.
This is part of what woud be my wildly unpopular political platform – “higher food prices!” Also- farmers (those who are landowners) get a lot of subsidies- don’t kid yourselves. That’s also gonna be in my stump speech – The Truth About Farmers. I’ll roll that out in Iowa.
satby
@Baud: He didn’t call it the horseshoe theory, but Eric Hoffer in The True Believer first pointed out that the far right fascists and the far left communists shared authoritarian traits and were psychologically similar. Later theorists like Altemann and Adno built on his work.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: What I think I’ve seen over the last three years has been a seperation within “the Left,” of what I consider the more responsible from the less responsible. The former decided that being part of a Centrr-Left coalition is not such a bad thing after all, while the latter group chose resentment and accelerationism instead of participation- a “sour grapes” attitude.
I think “Dirtbag Left” is a good description of this group. That is how a New Mexican here who had to deal with this type while organizing Democratic voters described them.
Baud
@Kay:
Baud!/Kay! 20XX!: There’s no such thing as a free lunch!
Honus
@lowtechcyclist: Exactly. Where did these people get the idea that fast food was supposed to be delicious, economical and healthy? Mainly, it’s “fast” and everything else is compromised for that. You don’t go to McDonalds for a great meal. (In fact I pretty much don’t go at all; I pretty much quit eating at fast food chains years ago)
Kay
@Geminid:
Oh, God. The near knee jerk BJ mantra of insisting they aren’t part of “the coalition”
The coalition doesn’t have entry requirements and the centrist part of it don’t get to determine who is in and who is out. I accept fucking Joe Manchin as part of “the coalition” – the least centrists could do is reciprocate.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@satby: That shared authoritarianism is interesting. Extreme right and extreme left are both purists. Everyone else is “wrong.”
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Princess: This. We do a massive disservice to many on our side for disparaging “the left” too broadly. It splits our coalition.
We also need to recognize the media’s persistent disinformation campaign against activists of all stripes; socialists, femininists, anti-racisits, police reform advocates, et c. for what it is. They nut-pick students for ideas that superficially sound crazy, then point and tell people to laugh, jeer, and fear. If they hire a leftist commentator it’s your Cenk Uyghers (no I won’t check my spelling). High on bombast and low on critical thinking.
We don’t hear consistently from leftist academics or succesful leftist leaders in business or politics. But there’s always interview time for the roughest fringe of the right with helpful image softening.
Yes, there are dirtbags on the left. They’re also in the middle. It’s hard to find non-dirtbags on the right. I’d rather deal with a leftist who’s a little too fired up because their views don’t even reach most Americans for their consideration than a centrist smugly condescending to me that my inability to make rent off two incomes and the ravening anti-queer brigade who wants to unexist me aren’t both vital concerns and I should really just be caaaaalm.
Kay
@Baud:
Free SCHOOL lunches are a great deal. They’re already federaly subsidized twice – at the grower level and then again at the school district level. When I was on a school committee I wondered whether it was actually cheaper to just give them lunch than it was to set up electronic payment systems and chase them for unpaid balances. I bet it is.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I would argue the authoritarianism or lack thereof exists separately. Thinking our economy, at it’s core, is not designed in a way that serves most people or communities does not equate to a willingness to burn it all down.
Geminid
@RevRick: I never see this type of rest stop except when I’m up North. Another Yankee trick!
Actually, rest stops with restaurants might not be such a bad idea in a state like Connecticut. They keep through-travellers on the highway and off local roads. And as others have pointed out, anyone can pack sandwiches if they want to save money. They’ll eat better food, too.
kalakal
@Baud: That’s pretty much how I see the horseshoe theory. People at either end tend to extreme authoritarianism, the justifications differ but the actions don’t, they tend to feel that they, and they alone, know THE TRUTH and all who disagree are either knaves, who should be destroyed, or fools who need to be taught THE TRUTH, by force if necessary, for their own good. Religious maniacs are another example of this mind set
Anne Laurie
The Boomers, I think (especially us back-end Boomers, post-1955), were the first generation that grew up with chain fast-food franchises widely advertised on television.
I suspect, like leaded gasoline, this has had a lot more effect on our society than we usually notice.
Choosing *NOT* to eat at McDonalds, et al, is the anomaly for a lot of people under the age of 65… although hopefully that’s changed a bit with the rise of ‘healthy’ fast-casual options, like Panera?
Geminid
@Kay: Yes, the party does not have entrance requirements. But I said this group chose to be part of the coalition, not that they met some entry requirements. The requirement was participation.
Honus
@The Pale Scot: just going to take a flyer here and say that driving 70mph on the interstate with pot of hot water beside you is not a great idea. I like the thermos much better.
Kay
@Geminid:
It sounds parronizing as hell. “The finally came around to my way of thinking”
Maybe they were always there and you were just wrong about them?
I worry less about Brooklyn hipsters and their ultra cool rejection of the Democratic Party because they mostly live in blue cities so if they vote or not doesn’t matter than much, frankly.
I love young people (our other disobedient group) but unless they get their turnout above 15/20% no one is going to pay attention to them. Old people get more attention because they vote at 70/80%. It’s not ideological.
Chris T.
@Geminid:
Places with limited land and/or toll roads seem to have developed the “rest stop in expanded median of divided highway” trick. In areas with a lot of cheap land and lack of toll roads, there’s no real advantage to this.
Having moved to the Left Coast when I turned 30 (about 1990), and lived in the Intermountain West for a decade (2002-2014), I’m happy to have left these behind. But I do wish the “public/private partnership” style rest stops (common in Utah) were more/better regulated, at least. (Cf California vs Chick-Fil-A mentioned earlier!) WA has state-operated rest stops like I remember from when I was a kid in the 1970s.
Honus
@Geminid: A lot of stops on highways these days have some pretty good local food if you ignore the chains. The Tamarack Center in West Virginia has great food in its cafeteria, staffed by line cooks from the Greenbrier. A lot of gas stations just off the interstate have great cookies and bread from mennonite bakeries. And if you get near Clarksburg, WV almost every gas station has locally baked pepperoni rolls, which are a whole lot better than a fast food burger and soggy fries. And if you’re lucky, you can get a really nice calzone at a a lot of fuel stops near Clarksburg/Fairmont/Morgantown.
Scout211
Yes!
We will need all the votes votes we can get for Democratic candidates, no matter if we agree with the voters’ politics or not.
Requiring purity of political thought has gotten the Republicans where they are today. We don’t need to diss each other and call each other out for lack of purity or for having the wrong version of political thought.
Just my 2 cents.
I don’t think it’s pointless, but it definitely is hard to call it out without sounding like another version of it.
We have the next 11 months to work on getting votes for Democratic candidates. All the votes we can get.
Anyway
@Honus:
Yep, if it ain’t broke … as someone that drives a fair bit thermos (or insulated travel mugs) are much better in cars than futzing with electric kettles
Kay
@Honus:
We have a lawyer in our office who does exclusively traffic – a huge issue for truckdrivers – and he says truck drivers are much more diverse now than they were 25 years ago, when he started. On the midwest routes anyway- out of Chicago- the people we get because the interstate goes thru NW OH – they’re Ukranian and Russian and Indian and African and Central American, etc. He says this is why they’re cooking more in the cabs- they want their own type of food. It’s probably healthier and also cheaper. Good for them.
Gvg
@lowtechcyclist: I have never seen reststop food be that much more expensive. I think there is still more to the story he is concealing. There is more bullshit. This guy wants attention I think.
Geminid
@Kay: It sounds patronizing to you because you are inferring something into my comment that I did not say, and was not hinting at either.
Kay
@Geminid:
I just think this analysis is way too broad. My daughter is a 31 year old Democrat. She votes, she canvasses, she’s a good team player. She’s also a PA – a health care professional who believes in her own work- and she redirected all her political donations to a Palestinian medical relief org. She cannot support bombing hospitals. These are our people and I would submit they are the people we want, even if they are inconvenient to our immediate political goals sometimes. I suspect she’ll vote for Biden – she’s in NY so it doesn’t matter than much- but she won’t donate to Democrats as long as this blank check policy in Gaza continues.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Gvg: If you get the combo meals with the big nice seasonal sandwich at McDonalds, they can easily run you into the teens per meal. $45 for three people isn’t outlandish and it hasn’t been for several years now.
206inKY
@Anne Laurie: Fast food, leaded gasoline, and cheap college.
The Pale Scot
That’s because the pay is 50% lower than it was before deregulation
artem1s
@ant:
what the don’t remember is that it was the only drive thru in town. the food was always awful. but the convenience and experience was unique so it seemed like more than it was. then it became a ‘must have’ for snotleigh’s birthday party or movie chew toy of the day. they got kids hooked on sugar and more sugar (ketchup on everything) and now they can’t go a week without their fix. I’ve never understood the appeal of ‘fast’ food. I only partake when I’m on the road and don’t want to stop for any length of time. now I don’t even bother with a drive thru – I grab something in the Speedway when I’m gassing up. coffee is the only exception when it comes to McD’s. the coffee is relatively cheap and decent – it’s the one thing that is hard to fuck up. the volume of drive thru is what keeps these businesses viable and they keep trying to fuck that up for themselves by asking you stupid questions about their apps and upsizing. if they are struggling and having to raise prices it’s because the market is flooded with drive thrus right next door and their customers have more choices – one of which is wait to get coffee or their breakfast sandwich at their work cafeteria (usually somewhat better than fast food and is even more convenient than wrangling hot coffee and food while your driving).
Geminid
@Kay: The Israeli/Gaza war has alienated people from the Democratic party, and they have good reasons to be alienated. I may disagree with them, but I don’t say, “Well, they don’t deserve to be part of our coalition any longer, so let’s write them off,” because that’s not how I think.
Princess
@Kay: I remember stopping at a gas station between Columbus and Chicago that had a restaurant serving really quite decent Indian food. It was certainly there for Indian truckers.
satby
Hoffer specifically cited and included extreme fundamentalist religions in his thesis on the authoritarian mindset.
Kay
@The Pale Scot:
It depends. The big national retailers pay well (Wal Mart) as do the unionized shops like UPS, but even Amazon pays quite well- they have to – there’s a shortage of drivers. Anyone who drives for auto manufacturing – carrying cars but also parts- does well. The US postal service uses contractors and they get the cheapest available- they don’t pay shit and it shows.
Low unemployment helps working class people. It gives them wage leverage.
Anyway
@Honus:
Driving between say Potomac MD and Portsmouth NH, interstate rest stops are the way to go. Takes too long to get off the interstate – makes more sense to keep going.
satby
@Geminid: Agree. I thought you had a succinct summation of the split. Anecdata isn’t the same as data.
Kay
@Princess:
My assistant sometimes covers for his assistant – they’re friends and mothers and they help each other out with covering – and I hear her trying to understand his clients on the phone. Giving up: “OK, please just spell it”. The whole message. Word by word. Lol. They don’t call a lot though. He conducts almost his whole practice by text.
Kay
@Geminid:
There is though, on this site, this knee jerk lumping of any dissenters as “bad Democrats” and it only punches Left. The constant fucking non-team playing of the preening centrists in the Democratic Party is ignored. I’m surrounded by Right wing Democrats here in Trump land. I could decide they were all bad Democrats but that’s a purity test too.
Media ADORE centrists. Fetterman will never again get the fawning press he’s getting now for punching Left. I think that’s enough of an advantage for them and they don’t need my protection.
Brachiator
@artem1s:
When I was growing up, one of the main fast food chains was Dairy Queen. There were other fast food places, but local joints, not chains or franchises.
We kids loved them and loved the food. Still do. I don’t understand the hate of fast food places. Eating at home is boring. And growing up in the South, a steady diet of fried Southern food will kill you faster than McDonald’s burgers and fries.
Later, we moved to Southern California, the home of drive throughs, from Bob’s Big Boy to Pinks to the McDonald’s Mother ship in Downey to Dupars, etc.
Fast food heaven and car culture.
satby
I remember managing help desks in India and Brazil as well as Canada and South Carolina. Frequently, the one account who was based in Tennessee had customers who called me to complain they couldn’t understand the accents of the HD staff. The Indian staff early on had slight accents but flawless English, same with the Brazilians. One client in particular kept calling to complain she couldn’t understand any of them, especially about an employee named Hasan. Who was born and raised in Toronto. Which is why you now have help desk workers who are obviously off-shored but give perky American names like Rob or Sue. It seldom was really about their accents.
Kay
@satby:
So where’s your “data” on the Good Left versus the Bad Left theory?
Again- maybe the error was on the part of Balloon Juice where you-all made assumptions about Good and Bad lumps of peoplethat were wrong. Maybe they didn’t “come around” to your way of thinking. Will Stancil is the supposed “Leftist” at the top of the page. He’s been a local liberal activist for twenty years in Minnesota. I would wager he’s always been a good liberal. I don’t think he had to come around to centrism to be a valuable part of the coalition.
Kay
@satby:
Ah, yes, More lumping. Everyone who doesn’t understand a heavy accent over the phone is actually just deliberartely not understanding them. She’s a professional receptionist and it’s a law office. Their legal issues are important to us. She has to get it exactly right.
satby
@Kay: I didn’t peg you in that response specifically because I don’t know anything about that receptionist and wasn’t assuming SHE was a bigot, it just triggered a memory. You do you.
satby
@Kay: Balloon Juice where you-all made assumptions
Looks like some lumping going on right there. Finis, not getting into one of your silly spats.
3Sice
This was at a Tollway concession. Interstate rest stops, have at most, some vending machines.
You would think this leftist would understand the state was extracting the true cost of his oil addiction, but I guess most reactionary politics is situational.
Anyway, the rest stop coffee machines in Illinois were better than what now passes for “coffee” at McDo.
Brachiator
@satby:
People are sometimes funny even when they are not malicious. A coworker who was a good guy would occasionally mention callers with “strong” Indian accents. And yet even though he had lived in laid back Southern California for decades, he had retained a very strong Brooklyn accent. But his accent was “normal.”
I also knew New York CPAs who hated talking to people from the South because they didn’t like the accent and thought that the people talked too slow.
Shalimar
@Origuy: Chick-fil-A is also one of the 2 or 3 fast food places in the food court at Air Force base commissaries along the Gulf Coast. I am not current military, but it seems to me that Sunday is probably a big shopping day for military families who live on-base. Chick-fil-A really shouldn’t have gotten those contracts either.
Geminid
@Kay: Some media sites adore “Centrists,” and some media sites adore “Progressives.” Outlets like the New Republic, the Nation, Slate, the American Prospect, and Salon build up “Progressives” and tear down “Centrists” all the time. Salon has a running series that might as well be titled, “And now this from Marie Gluesenkamp Perez!” If Rep. Gluesenkamp Perez was a “Progressive” rather than a “Centrist,” a different set of media sites would be attacking her.
This exaggeration of differences between “opposite” wings of the Democratic Party is a media-driven phenomenon, I think, that does not conform to reality. A good example here is the Democratic House Caucus. It’s not polarized between moderate and liberal. The New Democrat Coalition and the Progressive Caucus are not in some power struggle, but instead have worked cooperatively. They never could have passed the major legislation they did in the last Congress otherwise.
I think that reflects a larger unity among the Party’s voters. I realize people here gripe about party divisions, but they gripe less now I think, and that’s because there’s not that much to gripe about.
Chief Oshkosh
@Ksmiami: Exactly. For the majority of my life, we’ve packed food for long road trips to save money and time. There was a decade or so when we’d moved up the pay ladder such that rest stop prices weren’t a consideration, but we eventually moved back to prepping our own for longer trips. It’s just so much better.
Kay
@satby:
You’re going to lecture a 25 year receptionist at a busy law office on how to talk to people based on your temp gig answering phones. Lol. Must be nice to be the best at every job in the world. And attack her character to boot! She’s MALICIOUSLY asking them to repeat themselves. Jesus.
Our clients love her. She’d do anything for them, but she needs to know what complex mess they’re in.
Paul in KY
@Ksmiami: Culvers is best (IMO). Problem is there’s about 2 per state outside Wisconsin.
Thor Heyerdahl
@Joey Maloney: thanks. That took me down a rabbit hole I didn’t know I needed this morning.
Kay
@Geminid:
Is it POSSIBLE that rather than the Lefties coming to the center they persuaded you to come a little Left?
What I reject is Balloon Juice’s insistence on determinng what the “center” of the Party is- because it’s relative and it changes. The Democratic Party is further left than it was in 1993. I assume those on the Left of the Party did that, because it doesn’t make any sense that those on the Right of the Party would have. So who moved? :)
My husband and I say millennials are running thw world now, and they are, among professions and trades and workplaces. They don’t yet run the world of politics (a bit of a problem if the private sector is ahead of the public sector, but I digress) but they will. We’re going to have to adjust.
Kay
On accents, when I go to Mexico and Mexicans can’t understand my halting, heavily accented college 101 Spanish and ask me to repeat I do not mind at all. I assume they can’t understand me rather than they are maliciously making me repeat myself for entertainment because they’re all assholes. I recently returned from Italy. When I spoke Italian they always, always asked for a repeat. That’s because I have an American accent. I don’t even attempt Danish (yet!) but I eventually will and I expect I’ll be repeating that too.
Paul in KY
@Princess: I generally think the only ‘Leftists’ who should be taken seriously in politics are those who if you ask them ‘What is your national political party?’ answer ‘Democratic Party.’
Anyone else is not serious, a stealth ratfucker, holier-than-thou, etc. etc.
Paul in KY
@TS: Hope your New Year is great, mate!
Miss Bianca
@Anne Laurie: I can’t even remember the last time I ate at a McDonalds. FWIW.
ETA: Oh, wait…ok, I think it might have been five years ago. The only thing I ever eat at a McD’s being Egg McMuffins and hash browns (guilty breakfast pleasure!).
And only ever on the road. And it’s been a long, long time since I’ve been on the road long enough to need a McDonalds.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: Have seen them in Florida, on the turnpike. This back in early 80s.
Paul in KY
@Kay: I wonder if some of it might be that this newer, more diverse demographic of truck drivers may come from (generalizing here) countries where the driving can be much harder/dangerous. Using India as an example, (IMO) if you can drive and get a driver’s license in India, you can damn sure drive here.
Barry
BTW, Doug flipped at least several years ago.
He’s just another example of the Red-Brown(shirt) alliance.
Miss Bianca
@Kay: You mean, nobody *ever* disses bad faith Democratic “centrists” on this site? Everyone’s always whoopsie-doodle about people like Manchin and Sinema? Really?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Miss Bianca: Manchin and Sinema are kind of outliers. They also give obvious lie to the notion that centrists are necessarily more loyal to the party’s objectives.
And those are elected politicians with legitimate power. Meanwhile, we have people nutpicking the left on Twitter on a daily basis. Legitimate Bill Maher hating on college students type shit. Some commenters here have made dissing the left their entire personality.
Paul in KY
@Kay: We fine with them, Kay. Though I will mention that in your example given, we (Yellow Dog Democrats) prefer our people to be will-crawl-over-broken-glass-to-vote-Biden. Every state. Of course she has every right to be ‘Biden is Tool of Likud & is OOOOOllllddd’ (and I’m sure her actual positions are much more nuanced than my jokey quote) and critique him as she sees fit. I do hope that she gets to point where you don’t ‘suspect she’ll vote for Biden’ and instead have the calm assurance that she’ll happily pull the lever for Pres. Biden.
Whatever our policy or personal disagreements with Pres. Biden and his administration, we need to be all out there focusing on the (God Forbid) ‘alternative’.
Do hope you and your family has the best New Year, Kay. I do enjoy reading your commentary.
Dope
Perhaps you are not familiar with all internet traditions, such as “Click on image to embiggen it.”
It’s been a thing for about …. 30 years.
Another Scott
@Brachiator:
I guess I’m officially in near-geezerhood after seeing this ad recently and thinking – how can anyone understand her – she’s talking way too fast! And even the subtitles are too fast!!1
People are weird.
Cheers,
Scott.
Paul in KY
@Dope: Probably since season 2 of The Simpsons or thereabouts.
Lobo
@Kay: Yes. Studies have shown that. Administrative costs not worth the hassle.
Geminid
@Kay: I think the biggest change in the Democratic party in the last four years isn’t that it has shifted left or shifted right, but that it has been effective. We finally controlled the White House and both houses of the last Congress, and we got a lot of consequential legislation passed. If Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff had not been elected, we would still be arguing about who is to is to blame for Democratic ineffectiveness. Now it’s like we’re arguing about the arguments.
Another Scott
@Honus:
Sush!!! Don’t let the secret out!!11
;-)
That’s a great place. Good, reasonably cheap fresh food, store with local artists’ wares, etc. And it’s at a convenient distance for a stop when traveling from DC to Ohio (or vice-versa).
The local tourist coal mine is always closed when we go there. Dunno if that’s good or bad. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
wjca
Not noticably. The far right has moved a lot further right, which can give that impression. And, as a result of that move, 1here is less concern among Democrats in Congress that they will get voted out in favor of a center-right Republican** so there are more Democrats willing to vote for the same liberal policies that the party has embraced for decades.
** And yes, there still were some even as late as a decade ago. They may not have looked moderate from the progressive perspective. But to the average voter, they did.
Brachiator
@Another Scott:
Holy smokes! There is to my ears an odd slight slurring to her words, in addition to how fast she’s talking.
And yeah, the subtitles are too fast, too!
wjca
The problem with the subtitles, IMHO, is that they are two short. If they’d put up a whole sentence at a time, and leave it there while she says all the words, you could read it no problem. My suspicion is that they’re trying to make everything seem fast, to emphasize the name.
Kay
@Paul in KY:
I think she’s right about Biden in terms of a legacy.This is a humanitarian disaster. History is not going to treat Joe Biden well on this. I know he’s not running Israel but if he takes credit for foreign policy successes then he has to take some responsibility to foreign policy disasters and this is becoming a catastrophe. It gets worse every day with no ceasefire and no end in sight.
I actually thought the casualties of urban warfare “on the ground” would act as an incentive for peace, but if they’re just bombing from the air they don’t even have that incentive.
I love Joe Biden- I think he’s the best president of my lifetime – but he can’t stand by for this slaughter without taking a giant reputational hit. It’s not his fault but it is his problem, and it’s a big one.
Brit in Chicago
@Chris T.: What I would add to this is that nominal wages (the number of dollars you’re paid) are very downwardly sticky (people hate taking wage cuts). You might get some deflation, for some products, from increasing efficiency of production. But to get significant general inflation you need unemployment levels to be high enough to get people to accept lower wages. That happened in the 1930s, but it’s really bad.
Brit in Chicago
@Dope: I’m pretty sure that “embiggen” started on The Simpsons.
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
All this talk of fast food is making me hungry.
Ruckus
@Tony Jay:
Humans are all flawed. Every damn single one of us is flawed.
Some are flawed far, far worse than others. But survival means that we sometimes see things from our own perspective of survival/living. And no survival does not always mean not drowning at sea or killing something to eat. But every damn one of us is flawed because none of us are perfect. The world is not perfect, why should humans be? And is perfect for one the same for everyone else? Some have very low standards, some have unreachably high standards that even they can’t meet. Some are selfish and some are all giving. Living is a balancing act and always will be, for every living creature.
Jesse
What irritates me so much about these kinds of complaints is that there’s no acknowledgement that prices are up worldwide, in many places just as bad, or worse, than in the US. A trip to McD’s in Germany now also costs what this guy paid, and that also wasn’t true, say, 5 years ago. Biden didn’t raise prices in Germany.
dnfree
Our kids say there is a meme now about “Water is fine”, apparently meaning your cheap parents (like us when our kids were young) telling you that you don’t need a soft drink at the fast food restaurant, or really any restaurant. You can have a soda/pop at home. When you’re feeding several people at McDonalds, you can save quite a bit of money by not ordering a beverage.
Ruckus
@Jesse:
What does gasoline cost where you live? It’s $4-5 a gallon here in SoCal. I still see some signs of $6/gal. What’s the cost of gas in Germany? When I was a teen I worked in a gas station here in SoCal and gas was $.35/gal, a house cost $30-150K and this year my cousin sold his house in SoCal for over $800K and bought a bigger, nicer one in WA for $600K, on a much larger piece of land.
My point is that things cost more as time goes on, and always will. And highly populated areas will cost more, if for no other reason, the cost of land and housing, which raises wages so people can buy stuff.
Paul in KY
@Another Scott: The crafts there (tho not cheap) are beautiful!
Paul in KY
@Kay: Excellent point, Kay.
The Lodger
The well-advertised $1 any-size drink meal at McD’s has been gone for about a year now. The loss leaders have been around for so long, we’ve ceased to notice them and we just look at the bottom line on the receipts. Kaboom, prices are up!
Barney
Our Marxist has chosen an international-tracked price – The Economist works out the “Big Mac Index” twice a year, showing the price of a Big Mac in local currency and in dollars (The Economist uses it as a sort of purchasing power parity index). For July 2023, the US cost was between the Euro area and Britain. If you look at their past prices on github, you find that, in the 2.5 years since the inauguration of Joe Biden (which is what they’re complaining about), the US price went up at an annual equivalent rate of 5.4%; the Euro area 9.1% in Euros, or 4.9% in dollars, and Britain 10.2% in pounds (8.1% in dollars).
So, a smaller recent increase, in local currency, than Europe; the equivalent prices in dollars include an “evening-up” in the exchange rate (Euro area went up least, but is still most expensive; Britain went up most, but is still cheapest of the 3). The US comes out of it OK.
(I presume The Economist does not use service stations for its comparison – they’re not stupid.)
Barney
@Hob: “not quite getting how words work or wanting it to sound fancier” – Doctorow may indeed want it to sound “fancier” (or “more quirky”, perhaps), but I think he does get how words work: