You may have read that Trump lost his chance to speak after missing deadlines 3 times. Finally Judge Engoron said that Trump could not speak.
He had his unsanctioned tantrum.
It will cost him. https://t.co/BNQQpQI8To
— Jack E. Smith ⚖️ (@7Veritas4) January 11, 2024
I hope all judges everywhere – especially the US Supreme Court – are seeing Trump’s total disregard for the law, the courts, the judges, the rulings. Trump is a very dangerous man, and dangerous most of all to democracy.
Pay attention judges. If Trump were to be elected, courts, judges, rulings – they will mean nothing. And Trump’s attorney already told us earlier this week that if he sent Seal Team Six after a political opponent, and had them killed, well, that’s just a-ok in Trump’s world.
The question is this: are they smart enough to know that Trump has no loyalty to anyone and no respect for any court or institution? Are they aware that if judges disagree with Trump, they are most likely to be taken out and shot.
WHEN PEOLE SHOW – AND TELL – YOU WHO THEY ARE, BELIEVE THEM.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Absolute disgraceful display by Trump
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Not sure how this helps TFG, but I’m sure someone will come up with something.
rikyrah
I believe they are
Tom Levenson
Bad mistake by Engeron, it seems to me–except for this. It removes one claim on appeal (not a good claim, but something to blather about) and it enables the judge to make specific reference to Trump’s statements as he demolishes them in his opinion.*
But still: he had said Trump could not speak in writing. You or I would not be allowed to speak in a similar position (FSM forbid we would ever find ourselves there). An aspiring il duce should not either.
*As always: remember IANAL. Anything I have to say on substance or tactics in legal proceeding are worth much less than you paid for it.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
“Shut up, Judge!”
–
Homer J. SimpsonDonald J. TrumpWaterGirl
Too bad the trial is over. For the next session, Trump should have had to sit there with a literal gag over his mouth. I’m not sure why this makes me so furious – it’s totally in keeping with something I would expect to do – but I am.
Are we sure Trump is not the Anti-Christ?
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: I hope you’re right.
Old School
How?
Alison Rose
Not in any possible sense of the word, you semi-sentient cowpat.
rikyrah
@Old School:
in $$$$$$
WaterGirl
@Tom Levenson: Except, as I understand it, Trump didn’t wait for Engoron to give Trump permission,
Engoron only asked the question: “will he keep his remarks only to the facts and the law?”
Trump just jumped right in before Kise could respond and Engoron could either give or refuse permission.
Good point though, about Engoron getting to refute everything Trump said, using the receipts.
geg6
@WaterGirl:
I would love to see him treated like Bobby Seale.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: It should cost his attorney, too. Perhaps it should cost Kise, say, $3 million?
Since I think that’s what Kise got up front. Unless I am confusing one piece of shit attorney for another.
*Not suggesting that all attorneys are pieces of shit. Just all of Trump’s attorneys.
Old School
@rikyrah: A fine for the “closing argument”? More penalties for Trump Org than would have been likely without him speaking?
IANAL, so not sure what the cost would be.
Tom Levenson
@WaterGirl: He could have, I understand, gaveled him for contempt as soon as he started talking about anything besides facts and law.
WaterGirl
@geg6: Yes!
cain
According to reddit, at least one Judge has been getting bomb threats at their home.
I’m flabbergasted that the media will be happy to go on and on in outrage about some dumb shit like wearing a tan suit but when it comes to political physical violence – there seems to be no universal condemnation of trump supporters threatening violence – I mean it rings like the Jan 6th stuff.
How much shit was thrown around by right wing media bout BLM?
Just fucked up.
WaterGirl
@Tom Levenson: Engoron could have done that. Do you think that would have stopped Trump from continuing to speak? I don’t think it would have made a bit of difference.
What Judge Engoron could have done was announce ahead of time that if Trump spoke –after having flipped off the judge by missing all three deadlines and being told he had lost his opportunity to speak – that he would be fined X amount of dollars.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
Huh. I didn’t realise the question was even up for debate.
WaterGirl
@cain: Yes, Judge Engoron had a bomb threat to his home in the past day or two. Judge Chutkan and Jack Smith were both the victims of swatting attempts – thank god they have protection details that were able to intervene and avoid the violence that usually occurs in those situations.
catclub
@Old School: The previous trial was won by default. this trial was to determine damages and penalty. Engoron can set a gigantic penalty. Up to and including forbidding operation of his company in New York State.
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: Totally OT, and on a lighter note, after Grover Gardner joined in the comments for the second week in a row, I asked if he would be interested in doing a guest post for Medium Cool. He is working on one!
lafcolleen
@WaterGirl: The judge could still (if appropriate) sua sponte raise the issue of contempt. It’s not like objecting to evidence where the window to object / deal with the issue is very short.
A prudent judge (if considering it) would want to review transcripts / orders before any contempt because it would be appealed.
Baud
I’m glad to hear that Trump has finished grieving over the death of his mother in law.
Elizabelle
But, but: The WaPost’s top headline, for quite some time, is the Pentagon Inspector General looking into the Lloyd Austin absence.
Not a peep about the deranged defendant.
ETA: I hope that once they get around to it, our leading “papers of record” put up the whole, um,
ejaculationoration by TIFG. Every word.No cleaning it up, and no obfuscating exactly what he said.
Add in the Judge’s, and any attorney’s, comments too.
It is the least they can do, for cleaning up after this buffoon for year upon year.
WaterGirl
@catclub: I’ll bet $5 million bucks – that I don’t have – that on appeal Trump will make the case that he (Trump) was so awful during the trial that no judge could possibly have been able to make an impartial ruling.
Case dismissed! (I suppose if he gets a Judge Cannon, it really could be.) But hopefully not.
I think Trump is what we would colloquially refer to “
cursingCRUISING for a bruising”, and I think one of these days soon a court ruling is going to come down against him. Hard. Like he will actually be going to prison hard.Old School
@catclub: A penalty and end of NY operations seemed likely to me already. Have the amounts/chances gone up due to Trump’s actions today?
WaterGirl
@Baud: Melania’s mom died?
WaterGirl
@Baud: I guess that explains this, which left me perplexed.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
I thought that was excuse Trump tried to give to delay the trial. Of course, he could have been lying.
bjacques
@Baud: We all express grief differently.
Old School
@WaterGirl: On Tuesday, I believe. Yesterday, Trump’s lawyer asked to postpone today’s arguments until the 29th due to that.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: Yeah, a couple days ago.
And jokes aside, not only do I not think Trump gave a shit that his MIL died, I don’t think he’ll give a shit when her daughter dies either. I just can’t imagine him being mentally able to care about losing anyone, because the only thing he cares about retaining is money and power.
...now I try to be amused
@WaterGirl:
So much Fucking Around and so little Finding Out. He’s due.
WaterGirl
@Old School: haha. Like Trump gives a fuck that Melania’s mom died.
Glad they said no.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: That is a clever tweet.
WaterGirl
@…now I try to be amused:
I think autocorrect removed a couple of characters.
He’s OVERDUE.
mrmoshpotato
He still has the chance to throw himself into the Sun. Go for it, Orange Shitstain!
Brachiator
Nope. Trump keeps confusing them by wearing the mantle of respectability that comes with being a former president. And most people have a limit. Trump has only his infantile ego. He doesn’t recognize any rule or boundary. This always catches normal people by surprise.
I don’t think this will happen. Even if he were somehow to be elected, he would be a fumbling and cowardly authoritarian. He talks tough, but has never been in a physical fight. He is afraid of blood.
But I also note that he desperately hates being embarrassed, being judged and to be publicly branded a loser. He is desperate to get revenge. He is hot for it.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl: It’s a vestige of my Southern Baptist upbringing, but I have had many brooding, late-night ponderings (while waiting for the Klonopin to kick in) about the possibility that Trump was the Antichrist. I think it would be perversely humorous of God to usher in the End of Days not with a diabolical mastermind who would take over the world in Satan’s name, but with an absolute braying jackass who would nevertheless have the overwhelming support of evangelical Christians. I regularly respond to Bible-thumping morons who claim that “vaccine cards are the Mark of the Beast” of similar idiocies by telling them point blank:
FelonyGovt
I’m not a judge, but I am an arbitrator, and I have had parties mouthing off like this at inappropriate times and on inappropriate subjects. It’s infuriating. Most of the time I can’t blame the party’s counsel, because I know they have tried and tried to rein in their client, to no avail.
I will tell you that it NEVER benefits the party doing it.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@catclub:
I’m betting this temper tantrum makes it even more likely that Trump is forbidden from doing business in NY.
grumbles
What a pathetic, whiny little piece of shit.
A show-cause for contempt is most certainly in order, I would love to see Kise’s reasoning for that one.
And then Donnie should be made to read it out loud. No teleprompter or phonetic spelling.
zhena gogolia
ENGORON
OzarkHillbilly
@WaterGirl: If he can shoot political rivals, he can shoot recalcitrant SC Justices too.
Citizen Alan
@Baud: I would have given anything if the Judge had said to Trump: “I was very sorry to hear about the passing of your mother-in-law. By the way, what was her name?” I’m convinced the vile bastard wouldn’t have been able to remember it.
bjacques
@zhena gogolia: STRZOK!
Jackie
@WaterGirl: He also didn’t cancel/postpone his Faux Town Hall last night. I believe his MIL passed Mon or Tues.
Scout211
What a WATB! As I said downstairs, he is disgusting.
But also disgusting are all the toadies and cronies he bought and paid for (well, mostly paid for) to pump up his disgustingly narcissistic version of himself and his belief in his own infallibility over these many decades.* He really has no idea how disgusting and incompetent he is. And he never will, because, “You’re Fired!”
*this includes NBC entertainment division.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
I’d feel sorry for Melania if she wasn’t a horrible person too
lollipopguild
@rikyrah: Some people are smart enough to understand that once trump becomes our dictator for life(TM) they will not be needed anymore. Some people think he is just vamping and joking and he will never do all of the things he says. Some people really want trump to burn everything down because they think that they will benefit and not get burned. Some people think that burning everything down will “purify” the country and we will enter a “golden age” just like the “50’s” or the 1850’s.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
A mother-in-law for all intents and purposes the same age as he.
She died at 78. He’s 77.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
Oh, that is really exciting news!! Wow!
prostratedragon
@WaterGirl: “Are we sure Trump is not the Anti-Christ?”
We — this “we,” anyway — are not. I share your fury.
OzarkHillbilly
Say what? I’ve never noticed him wearing any such thing. What color is it? Is it encrusted with gold and jewels? Did Melania make it for him? Or was it Ivanka?
Origuy
A Trumbull County grand jury refused to press charges against Brittany Watts for having a miscarriage.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Oh, Baud. You’re so droll.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WaterGirl:
I think he fits the profile.. Lord of Lies and all that.
Spanky
@Brachiator:
It would happen in a flash, because he has acolytes eager to do anything he blurts out.
catclub
It is his only motivator.
Too bad Barack Obama did not know that well enough in 2011.
Scout211
@Origuy: OMG! Such amazingly good news!
Baud
@Origuy:
👍
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Origuy:
Wow!! That’s awesome news! I live in the area. It’s pretty rare that grand juries decline to press charges, isn’t it?
This should never have happened in the first place to Watts. I can’t imagine the trauma she’s been through
Old School
@Origuy:
Thank goodness!
Alison Rose
@Origuy: Thank God, but I hate that this even has to be a headline.
SiubhanDuinne
@Origuy:
Wonderful news!
OzarkHillbilly
@Origuy: A small bit of good news. Would have been made better had they found the DA liable for prosecutorial malfeasance.
Brachiator
@OzarkHillbilly:
It’s a bit like the Emperor’s Clothes. Sad thing is that his base believe it. And his GOP enablers fall in line.
And isn’t that the point? To get enough cover to keep pushing the bullshit?
Old Man Shadow
And we all know that when he loses the election, he will not go quietly into the night, but will try again to incite political violence. Assuming he doesn’t incite political violence before or on the day of the election to interfere with the polling process in certain swing states.
fancycwabs
What does a guy have to do around here to be held in contempt and locked up for a couple of days to think about what he’s done?
Mike in NC
Fat Bastard should have been fitted with a shock collar like they use on rabid dogs.
Old Man Shadow
@Origuy: Good. This should never have been brought to them in the first place.
Jesus suffering fuck.
Brachiator
@Origuy:
Very good news.
catclub
@Old Man Shadow: I would guess that the DA has a problem that is best solved by presenting a not very convincing case to the grand jury.
If he brings no case then the right wing loons go after him.
I am giving the benefit of the doubt since usually the DA can aim the grand jury where he wants them to go.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Old Man Shadow:
The one saving grace this time around is at least Biden/Harris and their cabinet are in charge of the executive branch
Brachiator
@Old Man Shadow:
The question is how far will the GOP go to support Trump?
He is nothing without his enablers.
If they had brains, the GOP would disqualify Trump from participating in the primary campaign.
But the GOP lacks brains and courage.
JaySinWA
The “all” in the title confused me. It looked like A1L, but it is AlL (font ambiguity, lower case L looks like a 1 in the title font). I thought maybe there was some reference to a first year law student, but apparently just random capitalization.
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Yes.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Old Man Shadow:
That isn’t a safe assumption. I would guess he would try and incite violence early.
jonas
I really hope Engeron’s whole plan has been to basically let Trump float every insane, whiney “defense” he can come up with, before basically shutting him down and bankrupting him and leaving very few or no avenues open for appeal. The trial, such as it was, was a complete shitshow in terms of the defendant’s behavior and he was given *way* more leeway to defend himself (and attack the prosecutors and the court itself) than would have been allowed for any other individual in a similar case, including this shameful tirade at the end.
pluky
@Origuy: As they should have. I’ve been on a Grand Jury. The adage about ham sandwiches does not mean getting an indictment is easy. Rather no competent prosecutor solicits such without having a good sense that ‘a preponderance of evidence’ supports such. This case sucked from the get go (to use informal legalese).
louc
@Citizen Alan: Also a former Southern Baptist and also have those brooding thoughts. And of course it would be the people most obsessed with the end of times who would be deceived.
prostratedragon
@Origuy: Well, at least there’s that much common sense out there.
Geminid
@Brachiator: Most Republican leaders are thinking short term: they want to win the Senate and hold the House this November, and they can’t do that if Trump’s hard-core supporters stay home. Georgia Republicans found that out in the Senate runoffs that Warnock and Ossoff won, on January 5, 2021.
catclub
I agree. Even though he should know that if there is no election then Biden stays in. But that requires some thought about consequences.
Old Man Shadow
@Brachiator: If they did that, you’d have a split between the Confederate Nazi party and the Plutocrat party. And that would be the end of their opportunities for money, power, and grifting.
Old School
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Origuy: YEEESSSSSSSS!!!
Old Man Shadow
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Yeah, I’m worried about bomb threats being called into polling places or one or more shootings happening.
If it affects the outcome of the election and he wins, then they’ll say our response to right that wrong is the same as his response to losing was and the media will go along with it.
If it doesn’t affect the outcome of the election, then it’ll be used as a reason why the election isn’t legitimate and there should be more violence.
Alison Rose
@Old Man Shadow: I’m very worried for the safety of poll workers.
...now I try to be amused
@Brachiator:
The scary ones are the ruthless henchmen “working toward the Führer”. Think G. Gordon Liddy.
geg6
@Origuy:
Oh, that’s how justice should work all the time. Good for those jury members.
Old Man Shadow
@Old School: He’s already been convicted of sexual assault in a civil trial.
And there was that story about him walking into the backstage area of underaged beauty pageant girls in various states of undress.
Unfortunately, even if a video came out of him raping a teenage girl, I doubt it would affect his standing with Republicans at all.
Ella in New Mexico
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
Every single down home rube who attends his rallies and tells reporters in the parking lot that Trump is literaly Neo Jesus, who was unjustly charged, tried and convicted and died on the cross for our sins just heard their Messiah speak truth to power.
They’ll be there until someone rolls the stone away from the front of the cave…
Elizabelle
OK, the WaPost finally has it up as top story.
Trump rails against trial, judge from courtroom seat at New York civil fraud trial
Credit for an informative headline.
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
What does everyone think about the Fanni Willis mess? Is the Georgia case just screwed?
Alison Rose
@Old Man Shadow: They cheered for the Access Hollywood tape. If there were video of him doing it rather than just audio of him talking about it, they would love that even more. Most of his supporters are the type of people who don’t think rape is a crime except within exceedingly narrow margins.
Elizabelle
@Old Man Shadow: This is why we need to insist on early voting.
Vote by mail. Or: Vote in person, early, at the registrar’s office. Which is often real, real close to the police station.
Good way to inspire Dems to vote early. Do not wait for any election day shenanigans — or shall we say, terrorism — get your vote in early. Be counted.
Brachiator
@Geminid:
It’s more than short term thinking to risk destroying democracy.
So, let’s say Trump loses, and we have to go through another insurrection again. Remember that Trump still insists that he is somehow the kinda alternative timeline president.
Or Trump loses and kinda goes away. But the MAGA crowd still wants what Trump promised.
Or Trump wins. The GOP foolishly believes that they can control him or get what they want from him with no cost.
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: If that is so, the judge should have gaveled him down immediately.
Scout211
And in other news . . . Are we a bit surprised? Another bloviating asshole just can’t be canceled. Disgusting.
Chief Oshkosh
@Tom Levenson: Yep. I completely agree. An inexplicable decision by the judge, compounded by not being ready* for the very, very obvious outcome of Trump barging forth.
*I am assuming that the judge had not prepped the bailiff and others for actions needed to silence the defendant.
Dan B
@Origuy: Its wonderful that she’s been
acquittedleft alone, but to be subjected to that threat is a sign of a failing system of justice. Justice meted out by extreme authoritarian, and punitive, religion is unrelenting. There are others who will not be so fortunate. There are plenty of people who are outraged that women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, and the rights of racial and ethnic minorities have defied “natural order” for decades. And there are an immense number of people who will not care or pay attention. It’s precarious times.Baud
@Scout211:
Rodgers was a Patriot?
Paul in KY
@Baud: I heard he could barely finish 36 holes of golf…
geg6
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
So far, I haven’t seen anything factual backing up that she did anything wrong or even unethical. Until I do, I reserve judgment.
geg6
@Scout211:
I wonder how ESPN and their bosses at Disney feel about that. Did they know he was going to do that? I bet they didn’t.
NotMax
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
It’s only a “mess” in Foxlandia. Don’t buy into the bullsh*t being spewed by the Old Unfaithful geyser.
Dan B
@OzarkHillbilly: I second the motion. Make these heartless monsters sweat. Conviction, disbarment, and incarceration would be nice additions.
The right wing and Christian Nationalists will fight this but there is a battle looming no matter how long we try to put it off. The issue simply gets more confused the longer we delay.
Chief Oshkosh
@Spanky:
Exactly so. The original Il Duce was a noted personal coward, yet a lot of people who opposed him somehow did not outlive him. And he didn’t live all that long!
waspuppet
THROW
HIM
IN
JAIL
Even just for a few hours.
Brachiator
@Spanky:
RE: I don’t think this will happen. Even if he were somehow to be elected, he would be a fumbling and cowardly authoritarian.
Trump is a coward. He can rouse some militia wannabes to come out for him, but Trump would never come out with them and lead them. He would just hint from a safe location. He is afraid of real fighting and blood.
Right now, I do not believe that Trump could convince the US military to back any takeover attempt. The conventional military would not risk their lives or careers for a fool like Trump.
Chief Oshkosh
@pluky: Well then who brought the case to the DA?
Edmund dantes
@Origuy: great news. Glad she can not have to worry about that anymore and have a chance to heal
OzarkHillbilly
@waspuppet: Throw him in the same cell as Bubba.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
If I’m Engoron, I sanction Kise with an order for 45 hours of live, in person ethics CLE, preferably in unheated space in New York this month.
Of that 45 hours, 10 hours must consist of a yardstick-bearing individual proctor making Kise smugly (and repeatedly) say “I’m just doing zealous representation of my client”; each time “zealous” comes out of his fool mouth, the proctor slaps Kise’s face with the yardstick..
The session can be videorecorded for livestream CLE for all the rest of the bar (as well as entertainment for me).
I’d also like to include John Sauer (the expansive “President is a King with absolute immunity for everything, including murder” guy) for this bit of corrective CLE.
I think it would be fun and educational.
Another Scott
Long seemingly live thread on the TIFG case on Mastodon:
Cheers,
Scott.
Martin
So, all the headlines said the judge said Trump couldn’t speak, but the legal reporting said something different – that Trump could speak, but he had to speak strictly about the case and only in response to the facts of the case – he couldn’t freestyle. So the judge never denied his opportunity to speak, only constrained what he could speak about. The ‘only facts and law’ was not a new offer – it was always the offer.
@Old School: Here’s the thing – when you use every excuse under the sun to delay a proceeding, and something reasonable does show up that a delay would be warranted for, you usually get denied that because you’ve already wasted the courts time to such a large degree. If you want consideration, you have to give some consideration.
WaterGirl
@Citizen Alan: Good for you for calling them out on that.
WaterGirl
@OzarkHillbilly: That’s what I think, too.
Paul in KY
@…now I try to be amused: And would-have-been-a-Nazi-in-3rd-Reich Stephen Miller. He’s an evil (and competent) dude.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Scout211:
Well, add McAfee to the pile of garbage liars
@geg6:
I’d like to know if they knew it, too. Allegedly, according to McAfee, “We were getting absolutely killed. They were like ‘You turned your back on him!’”
“It’s like, do you know how many thing I’ve been through with Aaron Rodgers? Yeah, I was not pumped to be put in the middle of that,” he said.
Old School
@Martin:
The judge did deny Trump’s opportunity to speak yesterday. He gave Trump’s lawyers until noon yesterday to get Trump to agree to the conditions. They did not respond, so he denied the request.
Kristine
Can a judge order or recommend a psych or other medical eval?
Just wondering.
WaterGirl
@Origuy: That is a sentence that should never have needed to be written. The whole thing is so fucked up, but I am very glad that they did the right thing.
WaterGirl
@Mike in NC: The same shock collar they should have used for him in the presidential debates in 2020!
Martin
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: Last August Trump said Willis was having an affair with a gang member.
We’ll see if it’s a problem or not – there’s no evidence of anything improper, but as a black woman, her innocence is not always the relevant factor.
WaterGirl
@JaySinWA: Sorry about that! I tend to make spelling errors – or grammar errors like subject-verb mismatches – when I am really upset about something. So I’m not surprised that I did that, and not surprised that I didn’t catch it.
edit: spelling / grammar errors and the frequency of the word fuck are my two easy tells that I am upset.
Kay
@Origuy:
Great news.
She sat in the hospital for 8 hours while they dithered over whether they could treat her under Ohio’s abortion laws before sending her home with no treatment. Then a nurse reported her for having a miscarriage – delivered her to the Right wing nutjobs in the county prosecutor’s office. People should get fired for this shitshow.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
Absolutely
WaterGirl
@Old School: Do underage girls have to be listed on flight manifests? Or is there an exception for that???
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose:
Which actually translates into our needing to have a lot more poll workers on our side to help reduce, or at least stand up to, intimidation.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
A ball gag – so he looks even more ridiculous than he
usualalways does.He’s not even close to being the Anti-Christ.
To be that evil one would have to have a functioning brain…….
Mark Regan
@Citizen Alan:
But now wind drops, dust settles; thereupon
There lurches past, his great eyes without thought
Under the shadow of stupid straw-pale locks,
That insolent fiend Robert Artisson
To whom the love-lorn Lady Kyteler brought
Bronzed peacock feathers, red combs of her cocks.
WaterGirl
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: According to Harry Litman who said he took a quick look at the GA rules and regulations, and even IF it turned out to be true, he doesn’t think she violated anything that would get the case dismissed.
But whether it’s true or not, they will use it to smear her and muddy the waters, so no one really knows how this will impact things.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: I wish I were still able to do it. I enjoyed it even though it was a VERY long day. Of course, there’s less likely to be drama and bullshit in my area than in others.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: Yes, and attorneys on site and/or on call. That’s been done in recent elections but there may need to be more.
Nettoyeur
@lollipopguild: Pretty much
what German elites thought back in the 1930s.
WaterGirl
@Dan B: The DA or AG or whoever it was that over-charged and hounded the young man until he committed suicide, when all he had done was some nothing-burger related to intellectual property.
I swear I would never forget his name, which I have, but I will never stop being angry about it.
CONSEQUENCES!!! There need to be consequences!
coin operated
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: Last year, she was accused was banging a gang member. This year, she’s accused of banging a another prosecutor. IANAL, but I remember reading somewhere that if they’re on the same side of a given case, it’s not an ethics violation.
So…just more click-bait for the RWNJs to salivate over…
ETA…what Watergirl said….
catclub
And so Georgia and Florida cut back dramatically on early voting hours and locations.
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
but, but…. her emails!
Ruckus
@Old School:
Yep, he’s already in up to the hight he thinks he is – the top of the pile of humanity.
Which is so far over his head that it’s impossible to see that far or to build a building that tall. If he didn’t have lifts in his shoes, a cockroach on the floor could see over his head. Looking parallel to the ground. Of course that cockroach would throw up he’d be so disgusted looking at that.
Old School
@WaterGirl:
I’ve never filled out a manifest. I’d think the FAA would want everyone listed, but that’s just a guess.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: They’ll use the story to try to influence jury members, before they are selected.
Annie
@Elizabelle:
Er, no, the top headline on WaPo right now is “Trump rails in courtroom”
Martin
@Brachiator:
He’s surrounding himself with people that are up to it – eager, in fact. And that’s how the whole authoritarian leader/follower dynamic works. He attracts people with sociopathic tendencies, recognizes their utility in that way, and put them in specific roles. He knows his limitations and seeks out people that don’t have those limitations and are loyal to him. That’s what Michael Cohen was. Cohen isn’t a good guy, he’s the same guy just no longer loyal to Trump. That’s why organized crime rubs these guys out – because they are dangerous, and it’s their loyalty that determines who they are dangerous to. And it’s why Cohen isn’t necessarily useful to DOJ because DOJ recognizes that Cohen doesn’t feel compelled to follow the rules so he’s not necessarily that useful to them – because their success relies on following the rules, and because they don’t benefit from someone who is anti-loyal to Trump.
I think Trump wanted to surround himself with these kinds of people in his first term, but not being a political operative didn’t know how to get the people he wanted. He got some – but there were too many people in the campaign and administration that were normal political operatives and pushed competent people on him. But now he knows which people will do his bidding and won’t, the competent people are removing themselves from consideration working for him, and it’ll be corruption from stem to stern.
This is why first coup attempts fail and second coup attempts often succeed. A lot of it comes down to organizational management – pre coup it’s hard to match aspiration to talent, but post-coup the talent make it clear they’re on board, there’s a self-selection process there that is absent the first time out. Trump will bring back Mike Flynn, and Mike Flynn will have no hesitation to taking people out, and he’ll know how to find the operators willing to do that.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
I think what you missed was that Engoron DID announce before the trial began that he had eventually ruled that Trump could not speak at the trial because Trump had blown off the 3 deadlines to agree to only talking about the facts and the law.
So Engoron HAD ruled that Trump couldn’t speak.
When Kise asked IN THE COURTROOM – even after that ruling – Engoron again asked Kise “will he stick to the rules?” and before Kise could answer, Trump jumped in and started spewing his lies.
Elizabelle
@Annie: At 2:07, when I posted my comment, it was not.
Citizen Alan
@Ruckus: “Brains” have nothing to do with End Times teleology, most of which was pulled John Nelson Darby’s ass in the 1830s. My point was that if the Antichrist ever comes to power, evangelicals would certainly support him completely. So why couldn’t the Antichrist be an abject moron who bumbles around fulfilling “Biblical prophecies” completely on accident?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
WaterGirl
@Kay: How is it that the nurse reporting it wasn’t a violation of HIPAA or other privacy laws? That nurse should never again be employed in any hospital or entity that deals with patients.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Even if Kise is as right wing as possible, and should absolutely be able to control his client better (or at all), he is not paying the bills, his client is. If he has to pay a fine, I’d suggest between a penny and $100. His client – ShitForBrains, should have to pay, just roughly guessing here, 5 million. Or six months in solitary. Or both.
WaterGirl
@Ruckus: I disagree. Someone who is able to set evil in motion is just as responsible as the person who carries out the evil deed.
Martin
@Old School: I don’t consider that a denial – again, Trump always had the opportunity to speak under those conditions. He could have gone back at any time and agreed and been able to speak. I mean, FFS, that’s what happened TODAY 2 seconds before Trump started his rant.
WaterGirl
@Old School: I guess I was too subtle when I added the extra ?? to indicate outrage.
Of course all humans have to be on the manifest.
NotMax
@Annie</a.
"Derails" is more accurate.
Citizen Alan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I think between voter suppression, the Electoral College, and our worthless, prostitute media, it’s too close to call. Which is why I now take anti-anxiety meds every day instead of once ever 2 or 3 months. And while we have never talked about politics in any way, I am quietly terrified that my boss (in my employment-at-will position) is a Republican, a thought that gives me nightmares.
WaterGirl
@Ruckus: Hard disagree. These attorneys have to suffer consequences of their participation in bad behavior.
Kise had to know exactly what was gonna happen when he asked the judge the question in the first place! No plausible deniability there. None.
Snarki, child of Loki
Trump’s courtroom outburst should have resulted in him being tased. But the judge is clearly too lenient, since Trump has zero control of *both* ends of his GI tract.
mrmoshpotato
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
You mean absolutely honest display by the orange shitstain.
WaterGirl
@Snarki, child of Loki: Maybe he needs to wear a diaper on his face so all the words are muffled?
rikyrah
@cain:
Because, the roads would lead to Dolt45. They need to keep him as a plausible candidate. After all, they are ‘lone wolfs’ doing this.
mrmoshpotato
@WaterGirl:
Are you saying that Dump has been a fascist manbaby for years?
Martin
@WaterGirl: All passengers need to be included on the manifest, but where public flights have no incentives to not list passengers, private flights often have lots of incentives to not list passengers. And the only way you’re likely to get caught is if the plane crashes or when going through customs. Since his island didn’t have an airport – he would go through St Thomas International Airport, which was in the US Virgin Islands, so still no customs.
Knowing someone who used to have a private jet (stopped having it when he crashed and died) there’s very little control over them, even after 9/11. He could have someone jump on the plane at the last minute (he would regularly fly from SoCal to Hawaii with friends), and whether or not he gave an accurate manifest was more a question of whether it was convenient or not. Upon landing you jump out, climb in the car you have waiting and drive out. Nobody is any the wiser who was or wasn’t on the plane. Human trafficking on private planes in the US is trivial to do. Your biggest risk is a spot check by the FAA, and they aren’t particularly focused on who your passengers are.
Ruckus
@Elizabelle:
Newspapers are not going to change how they discuss/help buffoons like SFB. Sure the WaPost is one of the better majors, but it is still in the newspaper business. And owning/running a newspaper is about MONEY, as in any very large corporation. Sure they give opinions, facts, report on happenings. Like SFB, a happening of epic shit and stupidity. Who actually was president. Which shows there are a lot of humans that think someone like SFB is an actual human. Which in comparison with many of his supporters — isn’t very likely.
Martin
@WaterGirl: Aaron Swartz.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
You don’t think these activities by Trump, Flynn, etc would come out and be exposed? That’s a lot of people to be in on something like political assassination
Martin
@WaterGirl: But that just illustrates my point – the judge was ALWAYS willing to let Trump speak, just within certain guidelines – right up the very last second. There was never an unqualified no. Ever. Trump always had the opportunity to speak. Even after the decision Kise went back to the judge and the judges was open to letting him speak, under the same conditions.
I’m sorry, but saying he was denied is to adopt Trumps framing. It’s like saying you were denied going to the grocery store, while leaving out the detail that you wanted to carry a loaded AR-15 with you. He wasn’t denied – he was constrained, and he refused this constraints. But at any point he could have agreed to the constraints and been able to speak. The exchange 2 seconds before Trump started his rant proves that.
trollhattan
Kneejerk response to Trump’s courtroom airing of the grievances is not legal
11…3…2-dimensionalchess but more of a crayon line on the nearest white wall, and 100% for packaging and delivering to his voter minions. Always about marketing when it comes to our Donny.Where’s zombie Chicago 7 judge when we need him?
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: LOLOL that’s quite a visual!
Martin
@WaterGirl: HIPAA doesn’t prohibit sharing with law enforcement.
So 5 would presumably apply. Mind you, if my employee did that I’d fire them immediately. A nurse does not have agency to interpret statute – she should have consulted the hospitals counsel for advice on whether this needed to be brought to law enforcement.
I was a mandatory reporter for 30 years. I’ve been through this kind of thing a LOT.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Of course they’d be exposed. The point is that USSC by this point has ruled that it’s not illegal. At that point, what are you going to do about it, storm the White House?
oklahomo
@Martin: Still quite the whiplash of people screaming about asking for vaccination status violating “muh HIPPA” doing a 180 on miscarriages.
MisterForkbeard
@Alison Rose: I know someone who was incredibly angry that Trump apologized for the Access Hollywood tape. He thought it was Trump bowing to the media and character assassins, and that confessing to sexual assault was totally okay because it probably didn’t really happen, maybe.
Trump took his lesson from that – it was the last time he ever admitted fault for something, and he semi-retracted his awful ass apology later.
And republicans have taken their lesson from him too – never admit ANY wrongdoing, and Republicans and media will cover for you.
Ruckus
@grumbles:
SFB is too far gone, and given his personality and age he isn’t changing for any reason whatsoever.
He was chosen to be president. Which in his mind makes him better than any god. He is not and has never been “normal.” But he is farther way from normal than he’s ever been in his entire life. He never should have been president. He does not have the temperament, personality, intelligence, concept of humanity, perspective of more than a 12 yr old idiot. He got the supreme toy to play with and his response to having that taken away is to throw the world’s largest temper tantrum. He’s never going to get better, over it, or understand any of it. He thinks he not only above the law but should be lauded as the king of the land (and possibly the world). At his age and with his personality, I seriously doubt there is any way of talking him out of any of it or off the ledge he’s standing on. He never should have been president, which many of us knew prior but which all of us should see easily for sure now.
Delk
At least trump is unable to throw himself over the bench and attack the judge. Though I would like to see him attempt it.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
What do you mean the USSC has ruled that it’s not illegal? I assume you mean presidential immunity? Why would they do that? They would make themselves largely irrelevant if they did
ETA: They already have their lifetime appointments, so why would they help Trump like this? They have their police force for protection as well
Brachiator
@Martin:
RE: I don’t think this will happen. Even if he were somehow to be elected, he would be a fumbling and cowardly authoritarian.
I don’t think that this is true at all. There are Trump loyalists, but apart from his children and Jared, most of the close Trump loyalists are hapless clowns like Rudy Giuliani or blowhards like Roger Stone. And the only true sociopath on the Trump team is probably Stephen Miller.
Hawks like John Bolton tried to use or manipulate Trump and found that he wasn’t as totally as war happy as they were. But they were also appalled by Trump’s erratic behavior, his mental laziness and his stupidity with respect to policy.
But what may save us from an authoritarian Trump is this. He has been hesitant to start a big war because he believes that war is bad for business. This may be the one good thing about Trump. He fundamentally is not a war hawk.
But the deeper issue is that he is repulsed and disgusted by the inevitable result of armed conflict, mangled and wounded bodies. He can’t stand looking at them and I don’t think that he could order a conflict that would result in death and slaughter for which he would be responsible. This is not because he has any moral insight. To the contrary, he believes that men and women who fight in battle but who are captured, wounded or killed are suckers, dopes, fools.
He brags about being able to control generals, but he fundamentally despises the people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for their country.
And so the only people he can count on are the nutcases who group themselves into dopey militias.
Trump will never mount a successful coup with these oddballs and losers.
Burnspbesq
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
The MAGAts eat this shit up like it came from Franklin Barbecue. And the fact that it put the final nail in his coffin with the court just makes it tastier. Irrational white grievance is the only thing that matters.
laura
@WaterGirl: are you referring to Aaron Schwartz, the internets own boy? I keep a list.
teezyskeezy
@Martin: This is very on point. I feel we all have our coping mechanisms, and when it comes to the existential threat of Trump II, those copes come out. Hoping Trump is too incompetent/cowardly to execute his worst ambitions is one. And to an extent, we don’t know if his incompetence won’t hinder him, but like you say, the other sociopaths are coming to him like moths to a flame, eager to destroy all the good we have left in our society like spiritual vampires.
Now, for the people on this site, I don’t consider hoping he’s too incompetent is all that damaging. Everyone here is gonna vote for Biden. But it’s also the kind of thing that infects “normie” minds, making them feel less urgency, perhaps keeping them home or even, holy shit, voting for Trump for the lulz cuz he’s a baffoon he’ll just break shit that needs breaking not put me in a gulag, lol….
Ruckus
@catclub:
But that requires some thought about consequences.
SFB is not capable of any thought that reflects
that muchany actual competency.Scout211
I got so caught up in the antics of TFIG, that I forgot that the prosecution now has the floor for closing arguments.
CNN live updates
Facts. Legal arguments. So boring . . . ;-)
PaulWartenberg
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
trump wasn’t ranting to convince the judge to change his mind and show sympathy to trump.
trump was ranting to the Fox Not-News audience who will happily buy the bullshit claims he threw out there that he was unfairly treated and that it was all a partisan witch hunt.
trump knows he’s going to lose the court case. but trump thinks his rants will win him the election in 2024 and then he can wreak havoc on the courts for shaming him like this.
teezyskeezy
@Burnspbesq: Yeah, but the MAGAts’ frothy anger is pretty well pegged at maximum already. They are already saturated in that froth, as it is. Maybe they are at 99.999% instead of 99.99% now after that shitshow, but how much does that matter?
Barbara
@WaterGirl: Aaron Swartz. The prosecutor was US Attorney Carmen Ortiz and the widespread belief is that she was counting on a high profile case to burnish her reputation among high powered institutions in Boston. To my knowledge, she never ended up running for anything.
I have a lot of thoughts on what happened but they are OT and I am just giving you the basics.
Burnspbesq
@Brachiator:
That’s not a risk anyone should be willing to take.
PAM Dirac
@trollhattan:
I think it is more for his own ego, but, yes, it is mostly for show. And I think overall it just going to emphasize how weak and irrelevant he is. Sure his followers are going to claim it was a brilliant example of how he stands up to the injustice, but it is going to get him about as much as all his court cases and ranting about how the 2020 election was stolen. Maybe he gets to squeeze a little more cash out of the rubes, but Biden is President, the courts are ruling against him consistently and it is more and more obvious that he’s just the loser who is always at the end of the bar ranting about how unfair life is but can’t do a damn thing about it but whine. I really think the reason he attracted a significant following was not that he was like them, but he had their same grievances and COULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. The more clear it becomes he can’t do shit, the weaker he gets.
Betty
@coin operated: My understanding is that the alleged conflict is she hired the guy at an unusually high rate to assist in the prosecution.
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
Did you see the recent story about the Los Angeles Times? On Tuesday the executive editor announced that he will be resigning tomorrow. The Times is currently owned by a billionaire, but has been losing tens of millions of dollars. It is possible that Los Angeles may be one of the largest cities in the US without a daily newspaper.
The Times also recently announced that they are going to raise the subscription price, which may result in further circulation decline.
Newspapers and magazines are finding it harder to stay in business, and this applies to online media as well as traditional media.
MisterForkbeard
@Betty: What does “an unusually high rate” actually mean? Because that might be something, or nothing, or completely justified. Or just “15% over market rate”, which is probably small-ass potatoes.
teezyskeezy
@Betty: If that’s true, my gosh, how stupid.
geg6
@Brachiator:
I read these exact arguments made by many German politicians and magnates as Hitler was taking power in a history course I took in college called “Totalitarianism and Nazi Germany.” I suggest you read up on the subject.
sheila in nc
@WaterGirl: “our needing to have a lot more poll workers on our side”
Just want to ask people to be clear which type of “poll worker” they are talking about. I’m an election judge, employed by my county, tasked with running in-person voting on Election Day at my assigned precinct. In that role, I’m not on anyone’s “side” except the side of every eligible voter who walks in on Election Day. I and my co-workers are not equivalent to the party volunteers who stand outside to hand out literature and advocate for their candidates or positions.
However, both of us could certainly be at risk from violent actors trying to impede regular voting procedure. Just want to make this distinction between roles.
Brachiator
@Burnspbesq:
RE: Even if he were somehow to be elected, he would be a fumbling and cowardly authoritarian.
I agree and to be clear right now I think that Trump will lose if he is the GOP nominee.
But I also note that his base want him and the GOP leadership are eager to return to Trump’s warm embrace.
Martin
@oklahomo: If you didn’t see that coming, you’re not paying close enough attention.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): These are all hypotheticals, on the assumption that USSC either sides with Trump or evades an actual ruling.
XeckyGilchrist
@Old School: Yeah, I too am filing this under “believe it when I see it”
danielx
@lollipopguild:
Ah yes, that mythical golden age when all white men had good jobs for the asking and women, children and people of color did as they were told and kept their mouths shut – or else.
Elizabelle
@PAM Dirac:
That is an interesting take. Perceptive.
Burnspbesq
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
Shows poor judgement, and if it causes the voters of Fulton County to lose confidence in her leadership, they know what to do. But in terms of undermining the case against Trump and his co-conspirators, it should be completely irrelevant.
Barbara
@WaterGirl: What I read — the poor woman told the nurse that she had put the contents of her miscarriage in a bucket outside her garage door. Nominally, that’s why the nurse called the police. I don’t think she should have done it, this whole situation shows a shocking lack of compassion for a pregnant woman who was losing a wanted pregnancy. What could she have done instead? Encouraged the woman to call friends or family and let them know that they should contact a funeral home, which would know exactly what to do because they actually deal with situations like this not infrequently.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
Gotcha
Brachiator
@geg6:
I’ve read many of the same works. I don’t think that they come up with the same arguments at all.
Also, let’s be clear. I think that the GOP leadership are fools for not cutting Trump loose when they had the chance. I absolutely believe that Trump is a danger to democracy. I am appalled that his base are hopelessly devoted to him.
I think that Trump will lose the election if he is the nominee. And I think that people should do everything necessary to insure that he is soundly defeated.
So, whatever I might think about how clumsy an authoritarian Trump might be, I think it essential that he be defeated. Taken down. Dumped.
teezyskeezy
@Brachiator: Heritage Foundation is going all in to supply him with moderately competent yet evil lawyers and policy makers this time around. It won’t be the goofballs he had before.
teezyskeezy
@Elizabelle: I don’t see how he’s becoming weaker. Like how is he weakening? *We* here think he seems weak, but we never were going to vote for him. Can’t project that onto everyone. His followers love him as much as ever.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@PaulWartenberg:
I suspect you’re correct
@mrmoshpotato:
Well, honest in the sense that he showed his inner true self for sure
WaterGirl
@Martin: Yes. Thank you
There should be a law named after him. A law that makes it illegal and prosecutable to do that kind of thing.
Alison Rose
@Brachiator:
Mainly because it doesn’t really matter what level of skill he specifically has toward doing evil — it’s about the people he filled his admin with last time, and the assuredly even worse ones he’d choose a second time around.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): And even if there isn’t a ruling, and he does it anyway, then what? Stopping Congress from impeaching him is just a couple more bullets. If he gets someone like Mike Davis as Atty General, it’s not like the feds would prosecute him.
You think it’s hard to hold Trump accountable now? How about when he’s got the entire federal government protecting him from state prosecutors. If Trump gets the right people working for him – and note, there are no adults in his campaign. They all left after Jan 6. Every member of his administration is going to be a fully invested fascist this time around. There won’t be any Cassidy Hutchinson wildcards here.
So the question is – who then holds him accountable? You ready to storm the White House?
smith
@Betty: This is an unusually large and challenging case, and one of the most important in the country’s history. Why wouldn’t the special prosecutor be paid especially well?
WaterGirl
@Delk: That video last week was horrifying!
Elizabelle
@teezyskeezy: I think there are a LOT less followers who love him than before. Suspect he’s lost a lot of 2016 voters, and who knows about the morons who pulled the lever for him again in 2020.
Not that you would ever glean that from the news media.
Do not buy into “Trump is supported by half of all Americans” or “Trump is SO powerful!”
His political support is overstated. The threat he, and those who follow/enable him pose, is serious.
ETA: And I am seriously concerned about disinformation/fake news this election season.
geg6
@Brachiator:
https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/the-nazi-rise-to-power/the-nazi-rise-to-power/the-role-of-the-conservative-elite/
WaterGirl
@laura: Yes. Just seeing his name again… I am tearing up. So wrong.
Ruckus
@Chief Oshkosh:
I’m going with it’s likely that only the bailiff would have been able to silence him and only by arresting him and carting him out of the courtroom. And that in the end would have been a worse outcome for the country, because it likely would have caused a few of the wackier supporters to cause a lot of violence. To me not having the bailiff take him into custody possibly showed to some not yet on board that he really has gone round the bend into non-reality central.
teezyskeezy
@smith: Why wouldn’t the bad optics of this be obvious to a prosecutor who should know every right wing sociopathic asshole with any power is going to be scrutinizing everyone on her team including her.
danielx
@Brachiator:
And yes, his inability to keep his mouth shut on any topic whatsoever most particularly classified information.
WaterGirl
@Barbara: Thanks for that information. I hope she never goes anywhere professionally. Ever. Horrible. Humans are not disposable.
Feel free to send me an email if you are inclined to share your thoughts. Or, it is an open thread, so have at it.
teezyskeezy
@Elizabelle: I hope. But some hard evidence, which may not be possible granted, would help me sleep more.
PS-Glad to see I wasn’t just telling you how much I love pie!
WaterGirl
@sheila in nc: Yes, I was using the most broad term I could think of. I mean all the roles, up to and including elections judges. And by our side, I mean free and fair elections.
smith
@teezyskeezy: Bad optics re the romantic relationship, if there is one, but the pay could be justifiable given the nature of the case.
teezyskeezy
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I’m a negative person on the election, but I’m not so negative that I think they’d consider that a winning move. That would be a really crazy move since it isn’t clear how the outcome of that would shake out for him. So he throws the election into confusion with some really obvious violence…that all non-magats would blame him for. So then he fails to win and gets prosecuted, or he wins and he’s completely illegitimate to most of the population…he may think he can power through that with the insurrection act…but that’s through the looking glass (as Adam would say) and no guarantees after that.
Brachiator
@teezyskeezy:
@Alison Rose:
Keep in mind all the semi competent people who give up and quit the Trump cabinet. And look at the dregs who hang around.
Trump is becoming more deranged and more infantile as his back is pushed to the wall. He is never going to be a Lex Luthor.
But again, I absolutely agree that we all need to defeat Trump if he is the nominee. There is no question about this at all.
I have absolutely no desire to see how bad Trump might be the second time around.
But I also think that his weaknesses are very clear. And the right wingers who thought that they could get a lot out of him have been very disappointed.
rikyrah
@lollipopguild:
I agree.
This is the MSM, because they are desperate to continue to normalize him. Part of their gaslighting.
This, you need to update. This is the group that believes he will burn everything, and it will spark their great ‘ Revolution’.
Now, this is his core group. He will be hurting all the right people. And, putting ‘ those people’ in their place. And, their Prince of White Supremacy will take us back to the time where White was right, and ruled everything, and ‘ those people’ knew better than to speak back, and ‘ knew their place.’
matt
Are any lawyers concerned about how trash our legal system is, or mostly still just circling the wagons?
Elizabelle
@teezyskeezy: LOL. You are not a pastry or confection. At the moment.
Living with anxiety caused by TIFG and all the bad actors in our system, and around the world, is real. I wonder if we will ever be able to catch our breath again.
ETA: Not to mention climate change.
rikyrah
@Brachiator:
Another insurrection?
I don’t think there will be the lack of police presence that there was last time.
teezyskeezy
@Brachiator: My worst fear is just a period of a complete power vacuum in which other bad actors in the world take advantage of our powerlessness to do a bunch of bad stuff. Or, maybe Putin just rings up the Mad Orange King and says, if you get on a jet to Russia you can live here in luxury forever as long as you don’t retaliate to our first strikes anywhere.
(Of course, Putin could never guarantee some subs won’t figure out how to launch without Presidential authority after such hypothetical first strikes…they’d be out there for a long time with ample motivation and time to strike back…so maybe Russia would never be that crazy. But if Russia ever did a first strike against us…I’m pretty sure Trump just wouldn’t press the button and respond. Or Putin could call him and tell him his military is lying to him and he’d believe it…Trump is that stupid.)
rikyrah
@Kay:
She went TWICE to the hospital trying to get help.
She received none.
Ruckus
@Citizen Alan:
Because to be successful the anti christ would either need to have followers that could think and act or would have to be relatively smart to counteract the other side. IOW he’d have to present a good case to the followers that had already swallowed the opposite concept or were willing to choose that christ was 100% wrong.
Look at religion and tell me that a stupid anti christ would have gotten enough followers to be successful?
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Burnspbesq: Angry MAGAs get angrier? So what?
Can they even get angrier at this point? They’re always angry. They wake up angry and go to bed angry. They’re always angry.
Still not sure how this will help TFG.
rikyrah
@teezyskeezy:
I don’t know why people don’t take him seriously. When he says something, believe it if it’s an action that he says he will do.
This continuing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and not taking him at his word, is White Privilege to the nth degree.
Nobody non-White spouting this nonsense would be given this latitude.
PAM Dirac
@teezyskeezy:
Biden is President and has been since the regular inauguration despite his claims of fraud and god knows what else. What has he been able to do about it? His great insurrection failed and hundreds of the people who heeded that call are in jail and lives turned upside down. They aren’t being given medals and parades. Most of his major election endorsements lost and big failures like in Georgia have handed the Ds the power to implement all kinds of “evil” things that are actually pretty popular. Roe was struck down, but all it has done is motivate voters to repudiate the anti abortion laws the right wants to implement. His has been sued and indicted multiple times and can’t make any of it go away and is quite likely to have a number of big court defeats in the near future. He can rant about the injustice of it all, but he can’t do a damn thing to stop it. I’m sure there is a non-trivial number of supporters that will stay with him til the bitter end, but I can’t see a whole lot of enthusiasm for a guy who can’t do shit to change the world to be the way they want it to be.
teezyskeezy
@smith: Maybe, but the two issues are synergistic. If they had no relationship the pay wouldn’t be an issue. With the relationship, it’s going to be a problem. It’s like alcohol and cigarettes.
catclub
I am not sure. I think it peaked when QAnon was at its peak influence. That seems to have faded.
Anybody heard anything lately on QAnon?
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: It’s tragic.
And amazing we have not seen more (maternal) deaths.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@teezyskeezy: Exactly
rikyrah
@teezyskeezy:
Project 2025
Martin
Bolton turned on Trump. Jared isn’t returning – he’s got his $2B. Stone might return but he’s the same kind of middleman as Cohen.
He doesn’t understand people who would sacrifice for a principle. He thinks that’s weird – because the principle will never reward you for that act. But he doesn’t despise the Jan 6 attackers. He doesn’t despise Ashli Babbitt. She sacrificed for HIM. That’s noble. He would have rewarded her has she succeeded. There’s a transactional nature to what he wants to do that patriotism doesn’t provide, and all he understands is the transaction. McCain sacrificed himself for NOTHING. Babbitt sacrificed herself for SOMETHING – Trump to stay in power.
You’re confusing your worldview for Trump’s in some cases here. Yes, Trump is a coward, but he admires certain kinds of courage – particularly selfish courage – because he can understand how to balance that equation. He can understand *why* they would do that. He rejects loyalty that he doesn’t understand. He doesn’t understand loyalty to a set of principles – so he doesn’t trust them, but he does understand loyalty to someone who will hand you a stack of money.
In Trumps view, if he can sufficiently insulate himself from consequences, he can then protect the people around him, and that transactional loyalty will work. He has unlimited power to pardon. He has constantly expressed that the problem he had before was that he was surrounded by unloyal people – including Pence. Now that he’s picking the transition and not the GOP, that’s not going to happen again. His VP is not going to be chosen due to some electoral benefit, but due to who will protect him. His AG will be absolutely loyal to him, and maybe he can’t get the Senate to confirm, so they’ll be perpetually acting, and that will still suffice. He’s not going to let guys like Mike Flynn to be pushed out. And it’s not like it’s that hard to find enough bloodthirsty generals to surround himself with – you don’t need very many.
What you set up are a bunch of legal/power chasms that parties are challenged to cross. Will the Joint Chiefs stand up to Trumps orders? Will the rank and file of the FBI and CIA stand up to their new agency heads? Will courts put aside convention and haul a sitting president before a state court because he’s violated a state law? Understand, we’re already failing all of these tests, and the new tests will be MUCH harder.
I’ve watched institutions rewire themselves in this way before and it’s a LOT easier than you think. It’s not hard to assemble loyalists (there are dozens if not hundreds of law enforcement agencies around the country in this state at any given time). And once they’re there and flouting conventions, institutionalists become paralyzed – because they relied on the machine never being able to get into this state, and they have no idea how to proceed.
Barbara
@WaterGirl: Well, it was a tragedy.
By the time he was indicted, other people had been prosecuted under the same statute and had gone to prison, though not for long (less than a year). Aaron Swartz either didn’t know that or assumed that he would not be prosecuted or if prosecuted would not go to prison. He probably didn’t understand anything at all about Carmen Ortiz and her zeal for being known as a high profile hard ass.
But I guess, the greater frustration is that the cause he was supposedly trying to advance was so not worth his life. He coined or amplified the slogan “Information wants to be free,” and his “crime” was stealing information from MIT in a way I can’t explain but I am sure you can look up. His real complaint was valid, that people shouldn’t have to pay twice for information — first through taxpayer funded research, and then a second time, exorbitant prices charged by journals to read the results. Nonetheless, information doesn’t want anything, it’s inanimate, but that slogan has had significant and probably negative consequences for how the Internet has evolved or devolved.
But yeah, Carmen Ortiz looked every bit like she was doing MIT’s bidding, at least at first (MIT declined to pursue any damages) and that was and remains outrageous. I have no idea what she is doing now, but she was the US Attorney, and I doubt if she has ever been unemployed. The prosecution of Aaron Swartz was not even the most egregious action she took as a prosecutor. You can read all about her on Wikipedia. Let’s just say that those who are knowledgeable want to make sure that everyone is fully aware of her dirty side and they have the technical skills to make that happen.
Brachiator
@geg6:
This is not the Weimar Republic.
Trump ain’t Hitler.
The sad thing is that millions of Americans have seen Trump and know what he is, and yet want him to be president again. I don’t know what to say about these people.
And again, I note that it is essential to defeat Trump if he is the nominee. Hell, it is essential to defeat any Republican candidate. After this I think it is essential to do everything necessary to keep Republicans out of power. They are enemies of democracy.
This is where we are now.
catclub
Agreed. Suppose Senator Warnock said “I am your retribution”?
pearl clutching and fainting couches all around. Trump says it and they yawn.
teezyskeezy
@catclub: Just some nutpicking. They get up to some wild stuff on 4chan.
rikyrah
Dolt45’s incompetence, and the incompetence of the people he surrounded himself with, brought us bad policies, and just incident upon incident of outrage.
But, we were lucky. Contain this fire. Contain that fire.
With COVID, our luck ran out.
And, 500,000 died from his incompetence and maliciousness.
Another 500,000 died from the racist response to COVID.
Remember, once the data came in that most of those dying from COVID were non-Whites in Blue States, it was all
OPEN UP THE ECONOMY from the GOP. Because, THOSE people were dying.
And, trying to tell them that science says that it’s eventually coming to you – they didn’t want to hear, it, because they were wrapped up in their White Supremacist genetic superiority
I will never not believe it.
90% of the 500,000 of the COVID dead, pre-vaccine, didn’t have to happen.
90% of the 500,000 of the COVID dead, post-vaccine, didn’t have to happen.
I will never not believe that those people would still be alive, if we had had President Hillary Clinton.
NoraLenderbee
@Scout211:
> Andrew Amer, a lawyer for the New York attorney general
I went to high school with him.
Mike in Pasadena
I have not read this thread, so I’ll post this anyway. If I were Engoran and heard counsel ask for permission for trump to speak at closing, I would have said:
Engoran: Counsel, are you Mr. Trump’s attorney?
Answer: Yes, your Honor.
E: Have you submitted a request to withdraw as his attorney? I have not seen such a request.
A: No, your Honor.
E: Good, then we’re all clear. As his counsel you shall deliver closing argument on your client’s behalf. Are there any other matters for the Court?
Barbara
@Mike in Pasadena: Yes, this is what he should have done agreed. However, judges often show latitude they don’t have to In order to avoid accusations of bias, however unjustified.
Brachiator
@Martin:
I’ve seen the same things, but I think I have a better grasp of history.
Nothing you have written contradicts my assessments of Trump’s fundamental weaknesses and instabilities.
But the bottom line is that all of this is speculation. And after a certain point I am not going to defend my position or attack yours.
Neither one of us wants to see Trump elected. We both agree that he would be a disaster. Nothing I have written should be interpreted as “it wouldn’t be that bad.”
I have also noted before that the apparent longing for a populist authoritarian on the part of Trump’s base fundamentally threatens democracy.
So we are down to the practical necessity of making sure that Trump is defeated and also dealing with the current people in the GOP who might try to prevent a fair election.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: The needless Covid deaths. The destruction and undermining of government agencies.
The deaths in Ukraine.
The wholly illegitimate Supreme Court majority.
We all paid the price for the fools who could not/would not see the danger there, and either threw their vote away, or didn’t show up at all.
Jeffro
I have had that conversation with my Christian-raised but atheist self a half dozen times since late 2015.
I have settled on: no, he’s not. I refuse to give up my beliefs, and I refuse to give him that much credit.
he’s just our worst human; nothing more.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
I’m not really sure what your point is here.
Congress has their own protection details. And by the same token, stopping Trump and his cronies is just a couple more bullets, if we’re gonna go there
How would the federal government protect him from state prosecutors? The president is not immune from state criminal prosecution
If it got to that point, yes. There would be no other alternatives left.
ETA: Like Brachiator above, I too want to point out I think Trump would be an unmitigated disaster, and he should not be reelected
Scout211
Cool! You now have a famous friend from high school.
Citizen Alan
@Ruckus: There have been any number of stories by ministers appalled when they preached on, say, the Beatitudes or Jesus’s words about forgiveness and then been chastised by their own church members for “communist talk.” I have no truck with Eversor, but I do consider mainstream Christianity and especially Southern white Evangelicals to be riddled with apostasy, to the point that I will not set foot in a Baptist Church for any reason.
Ultimately, he doesn’t need a majority, because the “magic numbers” are (A) what percentage of people follow Trump without hesitation and (B) what percentage will sit quietly on the sidelines rather than stand up to (A). Because if A+B > 50%, we’re all kinda fucked. This is true for American Christianity and equally true for the electorate.
teezyskeezy
@Brachiator: When the 2016 election was called for Trump, did you think he would even finish his term? I remember lots of people saying he just won’t even be able to make it. I was inclined to (hope) agree. But dammit he did. Maybe he is a horribly weak idiot…but also maybe the institutions can internalize that, carry him through, and become twisted and evil the way he would want
And this isn’t a contest between who has the most accurate assessment of his threat. Not trying that. We all hate him. I just really wonder if his personal weakness is a liability for the movement to destroy democracy, or not.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
I’m saying that given who SFB is – and isn’t, especially now, who is going to control him? The guy who he is paying to be his lawyer? And yes a lawyer should be able to control their client, but this is ShitForBrains, who thinks he’s better than every other human on the planet. And given the overwhelming evidence that he really does not listen to anyone, his lawyer very likely would never be able to, as the evidence shows. Trump is an asshole. One of the biggest on the planet and he’s screwed himself in public enough to prove that and no lawyer without a whip and chair is going to be able to stop him from making an even bigger ass of himself. To him he is the top of the heap and at this point in his life only the harshest of falls is going to even make a dent in that. He has been, in his mind, the top of the heap his entire adult life. And I’ll only believe it when I see it that this ever change.
What I’m saying is that I agree with you about the attorney, it’s just that no one SFB pays money to for their service is going to control him, for the rest of his sorry, pathetic, useless, shitty life.
sab
@Chief Oshkosh: Her nurse reported her to the police. In a very right-to-life neck of the Ohio woods. This DA has been in office since Reagan was president.
Martin
Trump wants them angry enough to organizes into violence. They’re getting there. Swatting federal judges is an escalation. Jan 6 was an escalation. He’s got 100 million people with guns. He wants them angry enough that they decide to use the guns. The media are ignoring this. The courts are ignoring this. Black prosecutors aren’t. They seem to get it. They’ve read that history. They know where Trump is trying to go. White institutions are just trusting it won’t get there rather than taking active steps to fight it. I think that’s a huge mistake.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
I agree with you.
I think saying that Trump is not Hitler and that the US is not Weimar Germany does not contradict that he is dangerous and should not be elected
Ramona
@Origuy: that’s great news!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
They didn’t do anything when Mar a Largo was searched and they didn’t act out when he was arraigned in Fulton County
teezyskeezy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): History only has to rhyme, not repeat though!
teezyskeezy
@Brachiator: I’m not sure these voters truly have seen him. I’ll tell you what, I know some Trump voters and they do not watch anything but Newsmax and Fox…and it’s mostly newsmax. They don’t see him. It’s a complete bubble where they are completely protected from his worst shit.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@teezyskeezy:
Doesn’t mean we’re all certainly doomed either
Citizen Alan
@rikyrah: I remain convinced that if Hillary had been President, she would have been impeached because 50-100K Americans (at most) would have died of Covid and the GOP would have called it the worst humanitarian disaster in US history. No Republican will ever have any concern about any loss of human life unless that loss can be used to attack Democrats.
dirge
I think you haven’t quite grasped the depth of horror here. Groups of narcissistic, authoritarian morons take over institutions all the time, and are then fiendishly difficult to dislodge. The limited behavioral repertoire of the abuser isn’t good for much, but it is very well suited to running a protection racket, and as long as there are competent people who can be gaslit, browbeaten, or threatened into submission, the racketeers can still accomplish significant goals.
The horror is that abusive behavior works, and it can and does work at scale. I’ve worked for more than a few of these CEOs, and promoting the worst, filling the top ranks with “oddballs and losers” isn’t a mistake, it’s a crucial step in suppressing opposition and consolidating control.
Of course, it all falls apart eventually, once you’ve driven away everybody with a clue, and burned through the institutional capital, but the zombie husk can keep shambling along, breaking things and and eating brains, for far, far longer than you’d think possible. “There is a great deal of ruin in a nation.”
Note, for example, that what’s left of twitter is still, inexplicably, up and running. Hell, Yahoo still, absurdly, exists. The UK is still stumbling along four years into Brexit, with each PM somehow worse than the last. Also consider Russia’s… um, everything.
The “oddballs and losers” have a distressingly strong track record.
lowtechcyclist
@WaterGirl:
Only because there is no ‘the’ Anti-Christ.
But is he an anti-Christ? Most certainly. I keep going back to Galatians 5 and the fruits of the Spirit on this one.
These fruits, per Galatians 5:22, are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Now has anyone seen any evidence of any of these in Donald Trump? Certainly not!
Then let’s read about the kind of behavior that Paul sets into opposition to this, just a few verses before (Gal. 5:19-21): fornication, impurity, and indecency; idolatry and sorcery; quarrels, a contentious temper, envy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, party intrigues, jealousies; drinking bouts, orgies, and the like.
Sure seems like Trump hits most of that list. He doesn’t drink, and I doubt he’s capable of actual sorcery. But the rest? Sure sounds like Donald to me.
So I feel comfortable in calling him an anti-Christ. As John says in his first epistle (1:18), “now many anti-christs have appeared.” Here’s one more for the list.
Martin
@Brachiator: I think you believe institutions are up to the task of stopping this. I’m arguing that all recent evidence suggests that they aren’t.
I don’t subscribe to stochastic solutions to institutional problems – that the right person in the right job (Jack Smith, Joe Biden etc.) will save us. That’s unreliable. Institutions themselves need to themselves be resilient, and everything since Jan 6 indicates that they are not. They can handle petty acts – the guys that hit police with flags. They can’t handle organizing acts – the conspiracy to steal an election. If you steal toilet paper from a store, courts will correct that. If you steal a billion people’s personal information, they’re lost. Sounds bad, but maybe it’s legal.
There’s this debate taking place now whether the specific wording of Trumps oath as president constrains him with respect to the 14th amendment which is somewhat interesting as an exercise of handicapping how USSC will process the argument, but is absolute bullshit in terms of an actual argument, as though the only protection the nation has to an actual coup is the specific wording of some statute, and if someone a century and a half ago chose an overly broad word, that the country should simply fall due to that transgression. It’s absurdist, but to institutionalists, there is no other way to proceed, because it might open up some precedent that someone else might abuse, as if that matters at all once the nation has fallen. And this is a recurring trap that nations and institutions fall into constantly. I’m sure New School faculty were to some degree convinced that they had enough control of the institution to limit its ability to be taken over by hostile political forces. They were wrong. They’re almost always wrong, when one party acts in good faith and one refuses to.
That’s why I do differentiate the old GOP from the new one. They may have had similar visions for the nation but they had different values and tactics. You seem to think Trump will follow some rules. He will follow none.
bluefoot
@rikyrah:
There has been research into this – the effect of the news that the pandemic disproportionately affected non-white people. The research found it as you say: once that became known, both the government and lot of white people pivoted towards “open everything up.” Some of the research included data on some of the accompanying underlying attitudes – that the proper roles/positions for people of color is waiting on white people (recall “I need my hair done” and similar ridiculousness that were somehow taken seriously as arguments for opening things up, and the rollback of pay increases and protections for necessary workers). I think I saved some of the research papers. If I can dig out the cites I will post them.
Brachiator
@teezyskeezy:
I never speculated about stuff like that. I thought it was a waste of time.
But the only thing I can say is that Trump has been a nightmare. I saw early on his appeal among conservatives here in Southern California, but I was not sure how far he could go with it.
I continue to be appalled at how much his base loves him and how easily fooled they are by his grift.
I am curious to see how he does in the primaries.
And I have noted a couple of times in this thread, the GOP leadership should have cut him loose. The party could have recovered. Trump is nothing without his enablers in the Republican Party. They have done much to damage democracy.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
That’s an exaggeration. He’s never even won that many votes.
TriassicSands
@WaterGirl:
Trump to Melania: “Yeah, your mother is dead, but it’s been what, six hours? You really need to get over it. We have to focus on what is important. You know, how badly I’m being treated.”
Trump is less than a year younger than Amalija Knavs.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Nevermind
Captain C
@WaterGirl: I would hope the appellate response to that would be something along the lines of “Go back to Judge Engoron and thank him profusely for his grandmotherly kindness and merciful ruling.”
Nettoyeur
@Spanky:Judges are already getting death threats and being swatter.
TriassicSands
One question is “How many people are fooled by his grift and how many simply like and approve of it?
SiubhanDuinne
O/T, I fear I have just embarked on the worst sugar high of my entire life! Should probably just go to bed now and sleep it off. But goddamn, those ginger stem cookies were good. All of them. All seven of them.
Fuck.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Not sure about Brachiator, but I’m hoping that voting stops this.
Bupalos
Authoritarians test and probe, and then react to what they find. They pick these scouting opportunities that no one is ready to meet on even terms.
That’s what Trump did today. As soon as the judge cracked opened the door “does he promise….” Trump shot right through and started probing. What will happen, in their hallowed space will they oppose me in a meaningful way?
He got some information today.
Bupalos
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: voting alone cannot possibly stop this.
teezyskeezy
@Brachiator:
Not even once? :-)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Bupalos:
What else is needed to stop it?
Elizabelle
@bluefoot: And that insane “dying with Covid” crap.
As though it was an incidental illness for someone already doomed.
I think one of the worst things: dismantling the public health response to a pandemic/epidemics.
It would be so helpful to have government health agencies monitoring Covid’s presence now, rather than guesstimating from wastewater and hospitalizations/deaths.
I cannot believe these adults would not wear masks to prevent the spread of disease. Children managed just fine.
teezyskeezy
@Bupalos: And you and I both know that if either of *us* tried that kind of probing, we’d be spending a night or two away from home amongst the unruly. That judge just froze. Sad, too, because he had his domestic peace disturbed that very morning by some bullshit. He should have brought the hammer down. One night in jail at least.
zhena gogolia
This thread is not what I need right now.
Elizabelle
@zhena gogolia: Yeah. A lot of freefloating anxiety out there today. Hoping Anne’s evening thread will go up shortly.
Martin
Only Hitler was Hitler. But what about Francisco Franco? What about Putin? Xi? Josep Tito? Park Hee? Lee Yew?
Nobody is arguing that Trump is Hilter, but there’s a HUGE spectrum of authoritarian personalities apart from Hitler that are tolerated and find opportunities within the specific circumstances of a state. And while some of these occur as part of a military coup, which I think we all agree is not possible at this time, many occur as a soft coup, where institutions simply are unequipped to deal with an actor willing to use the levers of the institution to consolidate power.
Understand that we’re mostly arguing a set of circumstances that USSC has either signed off on, or has cowardly refused to take a position on that creates a vacuum that Trump can operate in. Just the fact that it’s now ambiguous whether a president can commit a crime in office opens up a massive opportunity. USSC punted on the question of the emoluments clause and now that we know Trump accepted at least $8M, he’s like ‘what’s the problem?’. He’s not bothering to deny it, where before that ruling he would at least say he wouldn’t accept it. He’s going to step through every door that he’s not overtly blocked from. That’s what all of these figures do. That part is pretty universal. Even the ones that were fairly reasonable rulers did that, because at the end of the day, they believe their judgement should supersede that of everyone elses.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: How about this:
Chunky Neighborhood Cat Is Always First In Line At His Local Donut Shop
The pics of the cat outside the door are hilarious.
Brachiator
@teezyskeezy:
A lot of people thought that Trump wasn’t serious or would drop out at various points. I thought that Trump’s ego would keep him in.
But a lot of people knew that Trump wasn’t really qualified. Hell, Trump himself probably realized that he wasn’t qualified. But his infantile ego needs kept him in the race.
Also, Trump could not abide the idea that Obama had been president.
Martin
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Don’t need to vote to have a gun, bud. The 35% of people who didn’t vote still have agency.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
…but can we press charges against the prosecutor?
Dan B
@rikyrah: Precisely. Although I thought they were calling it Project 25., although that is probably Trump with his Plan 46. Whatever, Heritage’s planning will allow Trump to coast. I’m not sure who Heritage would go after first but I suspect that bogus charges will tie up a lot of good people in legal chaos and in the ensuing 1 1/2 – 2 years to resolve those cases much more nasty people can be put in place. Who knows they might even expand the Supreme Court and add some Curcuits. Plus, if we lose the Senate there are lots of laws to be passed that would strip blue jurisdictions of their rights. They might copy Putin’s attacks on journalism.
Elizabelle
@zhena gogolia: In the meantime: beacoups pictures of sweet-faced cows and calves, and pretty horses, being rescued from islands in the middle of the swollen Danube river in Serbia. The animals were marooned by rising waters; they have now been ferried to safety, rather stylishly.
AP. No paywall.
Nearly 200 cows and horses stuck on a Serbian river island in cold weather are being rescued
Note: there is one photo, in middle of slide show, of a decomposing cow who did not make it. But mostly, happy and healthy looking animals, who are safe now.
Bupalos
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): we have to each be willing to take some amount of personal risk to stand behind institutions like the peaceful transfer of power and the vote.
We have to be willing to do more than watch and expect the things we’re used to having guaranteed for us continue to be guaranteed for us with zero personal cost
We have to actually want democracy, understand what it is for and how it works, and be willing to stretch ourselves out in its defense.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
The HIPAA Privacy Rule contains an exception for law enforcement purposes1 that permits a covered entity to disclose PHI to law enforcement officials without patient authorization under the following circumstances:If there is a court order, court-ordered warrant, subpoena or administrative request
To identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness or missing person To answer a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime
To alert law enforcement of a person’s death if the organization suspects that criminal activity caused the death
When an organization believes that PHI is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises
In a medical emergency not occurring on its premises, when it’s necessary to inform law enforcement about the commission and nature of a crime, the location of the crime or crime victims and the perpetrator of the crime
sab
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: They can put him out to pasture in the next election (in Ohio our prosecutors are elected.) But in Trumbull County they probavly won’t. He has been in office for forty years.
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose: Can’t see it! Not on FB.
Bupalos
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I can imagine there may be a civil case here. That’s what needed to be crowdsourced.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Click on the first link. Not Facebook.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): How far are you willing to trust that will hold up? Because every population can be pushed to violence. Usually parties back off when they see signs that’s coming – as police will try to de-escalate in many cases. But some parties seek that violence and continually try and incite it. The catalyst doesn’t even need to be real, it just needs to be believed.
We’ve had a big uptick in lone wolf political violence. We’ve had a big uptick in proxy violence – swatting of elected officials, judges, etc. which are at a minimum intended to intimidate if not result in death or injury due to an overzealous cop, a chaotic situation, etc. These are not things to ignore.
Brachiator
@Martin:
One commenter wanted to note the similarities.
I note and appreciate your comments, and have copied some notes of what we both said.
But there is no point in continuing. We are both committed to defeating Trump. Neither one of us, nor anyone here, wants to see what type of authoritarian Trump might become.
I am mildly curious if Adam might have an opinion on what contingencies might be developed by relevant agencies to deal with Trump.
Aside from that, I am happy to get down to helping the Democrats this election cycle.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
What’s your solution?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Say, I’m in the crowd. I, too, can help!
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: The main link goes to The Dodo, shouldn’t need FB to see it?
way2blue
Has it ever occurred to Trump that maybe he is a witch? Warlock? A warthog? In which case, the ‘witch hunt’ makes sense…
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose:
@Baud: Okay — cute!
zhena gogolia
@way2blue: He’s the Devil.
topclimber
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: He might have a million wackos with 100 guns each.
Ok that’s a stretch but not so much of one:
Elizabelle
@way2blue: Goblin. Gremlin. Vampire. The Undead. Gargoyle.
LadySuzy
@Old Man Shadow: I’m concerned too about the day of the election. And the night of the election, when election workers will be doing the counting.
I hope the Biden administration, the DOJ, the FBI, are preparing for all kinds of scenarios.
Like Stuart Stevens often says, let’s be careful about failure of imagination (paraphrasing).
Dan B
@Martin: I’m reminded of the Seattle Police Department and especially their Police Union. They’ve become increasingly authoritarian in their tactics, especially suppressing dissent – demonstrations. They’d ramp up the terror tactics and have fun throwing protesters in the pokey. City and county government have had it fairly easy since the Police Union head seems to understand what the bright lines are at this point but a stacked 9th Circuit would immediately change that dynamic.
Villago Delenda Est
Engoron should have told Kise “Control your client or I will control him for you” and then gestures towards the bailiff.
PAM Dirac
@teezyskeezy:
I don’t see how that would have accomplished anything other than give drumpf’s little show much more credence than it deserves. The schedule called for closing arguments and the closing arguments happened. Drumpf got in his 100 seconds or so of his infantile rant, but it had no material effect on the proceedings. I’ve dealt with kids throwing tantrums and enduring a minute or two of yelling is annoying, but as long as you don’t make a big deal of it and don’t let it affect what you were going to do anyway, the tantrum fades into irrelevance. I don’t see why we wouldn’t want the judge to take that route and I don’t see why we shouldn’t take that route.
Kelly
A nice even disposition. Angry all the time.
rikyrah
@bluefoot:
I will never forget the story about the regular Americans demanding.for the economy to open up.
Will never forget that asshole who said that restaurants needed to reopen because he wanted his free drink refills. That justified opening back up 😡😡
Martin
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Remember that voting is an act of mutual consent. This person is our new leader because we all agree that more people wanted them than the other person.
As soon as that goes out the window, there are no magical legal incantations that restore it because the only thing the law does here is to institutionalize that agreement. If the agreement never exists, and there aren’t parties (like members of Congress) that will backstop that agreement, then the law will be viewed as unjust and not worth honoring. We are perilously close to that point. If Liz Cheney has any redeeming quality, it’s that I think she understands that one thing.
I wonder what the gender/racial breakdown is on this discussion. How many white guys are more trusting of the institutions and how many women and people of color are like, nah, we’ve watched them get rolled over and over at our expense.
Dan B
@Brachiator: Corporations are People! Money is Speech!
We’re closer to Brave New World in our legal path than Weimar Germany. There still are insanely wealthy titans but mostly tech authoritarians than industry, although fossil fuel has plenty of Krups and Lex Luthors.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: I will never forget that marvelous photo of the white Midwestern
vampireszombies outside the door during some anti-Covid demonstration.That encapsulated our situation.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Be more engaged. Put pressure on institutions – courts, AGs, lawmakers, to not punt this stuff – to stand up to it, to draw bright lines, to be wiling to hold people accountable. And make it clear we’re ready to fight ourselves. I think conservatives are by and large cowards. This is why antifa works, because these guys don’t like it when someone is willing to punch back. They don’t like being surfaced on social media and getting fired or publicly shamed. We know after Jan 6 that they DO want to resolve this through violence. If our response is ‘no, we don’t want do to that’, then they’re going to win. We have to be prepared to meet them with violence because there isn’t mutual consent to resolve this peacefully. We don’t need to choose it, incite it, or seek it out, but we do need to stand up to it. Next time Trump supporters shouldn’t be the only people on the Mall on that day. Democrats need to be there, and need to be prepared to stop them.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Be fair. The undead routinely show far more warmth and humanity than your typical devoted MAGAt.
Brachiator
@Martin:
I will note that I never said anything about the strength of institutions. I simply noted my belief that Trump’s personal and temperamental failings, and his inability to recruit competent toadies into his inner circle might prevent him from being anything more than a clumsy authoritarian. A fairly limited speculation.
But I will note that institutions and norms have often been disregarded in American history when people decide to do evil.
And I guarantee that I know more about the abysmal history of civil rights betrayals in this country than you do.
MomSense
Sooooo, I am now existing in the culture west of Route 95, which in Maine is a pretty good political indicator of party affiliation. It is soooo confusing. I am interacting with absolute salt of the earth people who would give you the shirt off their back even if it’s their only shirt… if you are white, cis and hetero. There is such a deep vein of racism and xenophobia that I really dismay.
I don’t talk politics at all at work, but every now and then something happens that makes me realize how important it is to be a kind presence. One of my son’s clients came out as gender fluid. The financial advisor who sold his practice to my son told me that he has known them for 40 years and never knew this. Somehow being with my son and me, they felt comfortable revealing their authentic self. I broke down in tears.
I’m trying to navigate my way through this interesting new to me reality. It reminds me a bit of being a public school teacher in the 90s and early aughts when I was the safe teacher for students who were grappling with how to be LGBTQ+ in a world that wasn’t always accepting.
Oh and fuck trump and all his enablers. He really is the absolute worst.
Martin
@Brachiator: No, one commenter was pointing out the most well documented example of how institutions fail to those who agree to the rules of the game. History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
There are similarities, and there are differences. And if you are focused on the facts and not the motivations, you’re missing the point of history.
But I agree, Adam would be extremely helpful here. I suspect based on his sometimes cryptic statements before previous crises, that he wouldn’t be completely forthcoming. I suspect he’s sensitive to wanting to alarm us too much by talking about low probability outcomes that would have catastrophic results. I get that. But my job was to be the guy who would raise the low probability outcomes because they’re not zero. My job was to say ‘this is still a possibility, and we can choose to ignore it, as we are inclined to do, or we can keep it on the risk profile and seek opportunities to mitigate that risk, rare as it may be.’ Because ‘the big one’ isn’t likely, but you’re an idiot if you have no contingency planning for it. That doesn’t mean dropping everything in life to address it, but when the opportunity arises, when you have downtime, etc. yeah, go through your emergency kit, make sure everyone knows the plan, and so on.
I was often the gun for hire for doing that, because I wasn’t shy about looking like the lunatic in the room (maybe I should have), which is why I was given the task of Covid response, because I wasn’t going to be gaslit into believing everything would be fine, it wouldn’t ever come to us, there’s no way the institution would close. Sure, maybe that’s how it would play out and I’d waste a few weeks of work planning for a scenario that would never come to pass, but who gives a shit if I do? If it did play out as it did, at least *someone* had a plan, someone took it seriously, someone heard the ‘well, that can’t happen here’ and said ‘bullshit’.
I’m actually very self-conscious about this. It’s why I think people don’t like me, because I’m a fucking downer, I’m the hair on fire guy. But I’ve saved peoples lives being that guy. I’ve been right about 1% possibilities a lot more than 1% of the time, which freaks me out a lot. I don’t mind being wrong. I often hope I am. And yeah, I might be wrong and probably am, but if I’m not, good christ, so I don’t think we should leave it to chance.
I think we habitually under-respond to problems. I think that’s just part of the human condition. And I’m going to demand we over-respond and maybe I’ll pull us a bit toward a suitable response. I think we should be a LOT more hair on fire about climate change, and covid and Trump. At the same time, I think bad polls for Biden are a distraction and should be ignored – I’m not going to respond to optics and performative shit. I try to stay grounded in institutional, structural problems and demand institutional, structural solutions or responses to them. And right now, I see a lot of performative responses to structural problems – be it climate change or Trump, etc.
Just to be clear where I’m coming from. I’m not really looking to fight with you, I agree we have similar goals here. But I think ‘don’t worry about it’ gets a lot of people killed. I think this is something people should worry about, and I think this is something people should be more personally engaged in and prepared to be engaged in. I don’t like that’s where this is headed, but we’re not the ones setting the rules here.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Depends on the brand of “don’t worry about it.”
I don’t think anyone thinks we’re fully safe from the ravening Republicans, so I don’t think anyone here is proposing we should be in deep denial like the press or don’t need contingencies.
This “don’t worry” says “don’t let worry consume your mental state. Despair and inaction lie that way.”
Another Scott
Meanwhile, ICYMI, … (might need a private browsing window) – Reuters.com:
Fingers crossed…
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: I keep thinking I’ll do a series of posts on Project 2025, but then I think it might be too depressing for folks.
WaterGirl
@lowtechcyclist: Interesting!
WaterGirl
@TriassicSands: I wish you weren’t right about that!
Chief Oshkosh
@Ruckus: Maybe. But it seems to me that it’s more likely that other people will see it as Trump showing strength and yet again prevailing by ignoring the rules.
teezyskeezy
@PAM Dirac: However infantile, Trump isn’t actually a tantrum throwing child, he is an actual adult, and he can be an example. He’s an avatar for junkier losers who do dumb shit like swatting. The avatar sits in jail for a night, the mystique is damaged.
WE CANNOT KEEP DOING THIS SHIT WHERE WE SAY OH TRUMP HE WON’T LEARN SO NO REASON TO EVEN PUNISH HIM!!! MAYBE TRY THE THING WE HAVEN’T YET TRIED JUST TO SEE?!?!?!?
...now I try to be amused
@Brachiator:
Trump knows he’s out of his depth. As I recall, he looked stricken when the election was called for him.
Timill
@Elizabelle:
This one?
Bobby Thomson
He’s going to continue to act in contempt until someone has the stones to jail him.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Barbara: Funeral home cost money. Also she had not told her mother she was pregnant. Also having personally been in this situation although not as far along. You don’t after being in agony and bleeding really want to look to closely at what you miscarried. And in the mess of blood tissue clots and sometimes pee poop and vomit. You probably don’t want to examine to closely what you are scooping out of the toilet. There is no “expected” way to handle the as we call it in the lab, products of conception. Hospitals. If you bring in the POC usually send them to the lab for examination. And then they are incinerate d as medical waste. Oh an you probably get a bill for the lab work. I was lucky I was active duty so my hospital and lab bills were on Uncle Sam.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
That is why I believe my statement is true and applies. Partially I believe that newspapers are going to become rather useless in the not all that distant future. The majority of the citizens of this country will never be considered monetarily rich. A large portion may be doing fine financially and many of that majority will likely be doing OK and would like to be doing better but still they are doing acceptable financially. And paying for a newspaper that covers the same news, sports, finance, local politics as a relatively local TV or radio station is broadcasting and that is how many of the adults now alive find out about their news, local, national and international is I believe not something that people under say 40 actually give a damn about unless they live in a small town not close to major TV/radio reception, and how big is that population? IOW TV and radio and the internet have mostly taken over the news business of most of this country and all the old farts that seem to enjoy or are used to getting news from a newspaper are not likely to be here that much longer. And before you complain, I am one of those old farts that does not take a newspaper and haven’t for some decades as it just seems like a waste of trees. It’s good for one day and thrown away.
pieceofpeace
@Martin: Yes, a thousand times this.
rikyrah
@WaterGirl:
Please do. We have to expose as much light on it as possible
Paul in KY
@Jeffro: There can be multiple ‘antichrists’, IMO.
Paul in KY
@teezyskeezy: I did think he would probably stroke out sometime in that term. Probably was just wishful thinking.
planetjanet
@Brachiator:
Do you forget that he ordered an assassination?
Elizabelle
@Timill: That is the very one. Those faces!
Slate did an interview with the Columbus Dispatch photographer, who sounded apologetic for snapping the picture. Made noises about everyone has a point of view and that he should have gone out (!) and talked to them. (The newspaper reporter did.) Also that they weren’t at the doors that long.
Can you say “afraid of offending, and losing his job?”
From the Slate interview (and how naive does this photog sound):
[Joshua, who is this “We”? Man’s gotta live in the community though, I guess.]