After watching the debate, keeping up with the CNN, Guardian, and Washington Post liveblogs, reading all your comments on my posts (and MisterMix’s and the Blogfather’s), and skimming a chunk of twitter… well, all the smart money said in advance that it wouldn’t change anyone’s mind, and so far it hasn’t. There’s a lot of triumphalism from the GOP, entirely too much rending of garments among the professional Democratic ‘operatives’, and an awareness among the normies that we’ve got four more months of hard work ahead of us.
My personal analogy is that the debate dumped a big, very badly made quilt of lies, over-information, and missed chances on stage. It’s up to us, during the next days weeks & months, to pick that quilt apart and re-use the best bits to create our own narrative quilt. And there is lots of material in those 90 minutes where TFG shows all his worst behavior, while Biden defends Truth, Justice, and the American way. Seam rippers at the ready!
And, as always: Sharing is caring!
All that criticism has only made her more SHARP & PRECISE. Her time is NOW!
pic.twitter.com/ZxhxmbDisu— WMIIIX (@WilliamMatt22) June 28, 2024
White liberals I follow tonight: OMG we’re fn doomed
Black Democrats I follow tonight: Fuck that bum, let’s go Joe
Same Shit. Every. Single. Year
— NR_Garrett (@NR_Garrett) June 28, 2024
Biden: He’s just a liar. They are going to be out there fact checking all of the things that he said. I cannot think of one thing he said that was true. pic.twitter.com/5l2VyBmYZA
— Acyn (@Acyn) June 28, 2024
This evening's hysteria will be of particular interest to the leading biographers of presidents Mondale, Dole, Kerry, and Romney pic.twitter.com/KLRHbxDE2U
— Aaron Fritschner (@Fritschner) June 28, 2024
I know this will be a deeply unpopular view, but I don't think Trump has had a good night. He looks and sounds unhinged. He's been mean and abrasive. I tend to think that people who don't like Trump will not come away from this debate feeling better about him.
— Michael A. Cohen (NOT TRUMP’S FORMER FIXER) (@speechboy71) June 28, 2024
I get it. This is all frustrating and scary. Maybe you wish it was your favorite candidate in there, but you know that’s not happening. Worst case with Biden is that he has to step down early and let his extremely competent and able VP take over. Worst case with Trump? Well.
— Jean-Michel Connard 좆됐어 (@torriangray) June 28, 2024
One last debate take – Trump saying immigrants will take "Black jobs" feels like it could hurt him way more than what most white commentators are acknowledging.
— Queerhawk 🏳️🌈 | 🇺🇦| 🛡 (@alwaysadorecats) June 28, 2024
You doom about the debate, not me I'm built different*
*Serenely know that in the age of hyperpolarization none of this matters
— vocational politics appreciation account (@Convolutedname) June 28, 2024
It’s true. Bidens accomplished much more with do much less. Tonight was a punch in the gut. But throwing up your hands is definitely not the answer.
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) June 28, 2024
OzarkHillbilly
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: I feel less alone.
Ksmiami
I’m happy to vote Joe. I do wish he’d fire the idiots who prepped him
Shalimar
@OzarkHillbilly: Apparently even he doesn’t agree with him. How in the world do you not even vote for yourself?
OzarkHillbilly
My propensity for ignoring certain bullshit events has served me well once again.
narya
Luckily I saw the LOTR trilogy recently, so Aragorn’s speeches are in my head. We have the same work to do as we did yesterday.
Eolirin
@Ksmiami: Or, you know that he wasn’t sick, or didn’t have a stutter or was five years younger, because all of those things would have changed the optics enough that the only story would be how Trump lied, rambled, and didn’t answer the questions.
But this is all more of an indictment of our news media and the electorate than of Biden. Even here no one’s been talking about what Biden actually said. We’ve become a substance and truth free society. It’s not sustainable.
Shalimar
I’m glad I didn’t watch it, and I’m going to completely ignore the news for the next few weeks because there is no reason to get suicidal over 90 minutes unless he had actually had a fatal heart attack on stage.
OzarkHillbilly
@Shalimar: By being honest with oneself and recognizing the fact that there are better candidates? It was always a protest campaign, one focused on electoral reform* that Trudeau had promised but then ignored after he got elected.
*to change “first past the post” to something else. I did not read the whole article, I just thought it was funny.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
A thousand times this:
@Ksmiami:
Even the best teams screw up. World War II analogies abound here: Western Allies did all kinds of stupid things operationally (Operation Market Garden for example). We still won the war (although Monty was a preening asshat who should have been relieved but oh, wartime politics and alliances).
We’re gonna win this one.
Chris Johnson
I’m not happy, but Trump is still an asshole. AND a criminal. If it can’t be properly established that he’s a criminal and traitor, it is at least far more obvious now that he’s an asshole, which people didn’t really want to believe in 2016.
If we really truly MUST have Republicans who are treasonous psychopaths wanting Gilead and rule by Vladimir Putin… please proceed, Governor.
I would like to see, and expect I will see, the right wing taking this as a mandate and doubling and tripling down on all the madness that has stopped them actually winning general elections. ‘The Twitter faction’ should take total control, alienating what moderates remain (the moderates are currently winning a lot of primaries…) on the grounds that Twitter faction tactics are the only ones ‘winning’.
‘cos that is laying the groundwork for a coup, yes, but you ALSO have to organize a coup and have the support of government and military. And this they don’t seem to understand. Like Putin, they think they will be greeted with gifts of bread and salt, not bitter resistance.
We just gotta buckle down to bitter resistance, because the traitors are emboldened and will start throwing their primary-losing weight around.
JPL
Can’t wait until the supremes rule that we have no rights under the constitution. Tune in at 10
New Deal democrat
As usual, Dan Guild has the most level-headed reaction. Basically, based on history, it will be a very bad next few days, and then the polls will revert to their baseline:
https://nitter.poast.org/dcg1114
while most of the commentary online has been how poorly Biden did, the reports on actual undecided voters who watched suggest that their main reaction was being repulsed by Trump.
Deep breaths.
snoey
@Shalimar: He doesn’t have a vote since he doesn’t live in the district.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone😊😊😊
Betty Cracker
I didn’t watch the debate, but the reactions from Democrats who are honest brokers in my book (Josh Marshall & Kate Riga, Claire McCaskill, heck, even the VP) acknowledge that Biden had an off night. It’s not just the panic-mongers in the big media orgs.
It sucks, but the only thing that matters is how the debate (and talk about it) affects the idiot fence-sitters who decide close elections. It’s June, so hopefully most of them still aren’t paying attention. Does anyone know how the ratings were?
3Sice
Vote for the old guy – it’s important.
Flash polling and focus groups (aside from Luntz’s) were better for Joe than manic progressive hot takes.
I guess we’ll see how polling shakes out next week.
Ksmiami
@JPL: they can try that approach, but then they’ll have no rights or protections either.
TBone
I’m not looking over my shoulder today. That causes stumbling. Straight ahead. Of course, the eyes in the back of my head still work.
But my vision is focused on what’s in front of us
NotMax
Weekend watch.
Well, blow me down. Or not.
;)
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@New Deal democrat:
That take amplifies a comment in the previous thread where Heather Cox Richardson quotes Monique Pressley:
My only quibble with that quote is the that “narcissist” should have been inserted between “lying” and “sociopath”.
Chris Johnson
I would also note that Biden would be the first to tell you he works for the Democratic side. It’s picking sides, not picking Gods. You get to pick the full Dem team, which is not going to collapse because Joe had a bad night. Hell, if he got hit by a bus (the ‘bus factor’ for evaluating startups: if the key guy gets hit by a bus, is the company ruined, or can they continue?) the Dems would not collapse.
I would rather not have a white guy this old to be the point man leading us all, but we did have a younger black guy for eight years so I continue to be enthusiastic about giving that guy’s Vice President the job for a full eight years if he and his team can do it. He’s done really well.
NotMax
@TBone
Eat a lot of walnuts, do ya?
:)
bbleh
@Ksmiami: this. What TCFG did was widely predicted — even *I* did — and should have been the first thing they prepped him for
That said, as observed elsewhere, the way forward is the same as it was yesterday and would have been if Biden had romped: identify and turn out Dem-leaning low-propensity voters. We have an enormous advantage in the ground war right now; we just need to exploit it. Volunteer if you can! Donate in any case!
p.a.
“A lie gets halfway ’round the world before the truth gets its boots on…”
But once on, the truth puts a boot right up the lie’s ass.
Just give tRump’s bullshit time to ferment. I just need to take my own advice🤔😉 Hate that futher mucker.
trnc
Biden drooling in a cup would still be a better man then TCF/AR every day of the week.
Chris Johnson
Trump should step aside in favor of Nikki Haley. That would be really dangerous and bring over the independents and moderates. I’m waiting to hear when he accepts he’s caused an insurmountable problem and steps down.
:D
YY_Sima Qian
Heh, Stuart Stevens’ criticism of the Obamabros is on point.
& I say that as someone who was an Obamaniac from 2008 to 2016, at the time made every excuse for his & his team’s policy choices, still holds him in high esteem, & still finds him the only President (or national level politician, or any international leader) who resonates. & I say that as someone who on the balance prefers the policy inclinations of the Obamabros to those who originated from Biden’s or Clintons’ orbits.
159 for the sta,ps.
A few days of Biden is old, weeks of ads showing Trump lied at the debate. Better now?
ColoradoGuy
Still think CNN was fucking with the mikes … a treble boost for T, and a 3 kHz rolloff on Biden’s mike. Made Biden sound muffled and dull, while T was extra-shouty. Just a little bit of EQ while nobody was looking.
YY_Sima Qian
@Chris Johnson: Joking aside, what frightens me about the state of politics in the US is that the next leader of the GOP could be someone charismatic, photogenic, intelligent, & competent.
Eyeroller
I do not understand what is pathological in (white) Democrats but we see it over and over. One stumble or off night by our candidate and so many are ready to throw in the towel or throw the candidate under the bus. If they kept it to themselves, or just wrung their hands anonymously on a top-10,000 political blog, that would be unfortunate but not too big a problem, but no, those with a platform run out and shriek about it to the press and public. Claire McCaskill says he should step aside? Really? How would that be accomplished and how would it not be much worse. Goddamn it, defend the candidate, don’t attack him from his own side. Meanwhile if the equivalent happens to a Republican candidate there is a Greek chorus of Republican commenters and operatives explaining how it really was a good thing.
I’ll cite Schroedinger’s Cat’s regular comment that Democratic messaging is only a problem with white people. There is some evidence that Black and Hispanic viewers reacted differently to the debate. Furthermore, there’s plenty of evidence that voters don’t actually care about a candidate’s age if they aren’t worried about something else. Iowans happily voted for 88-year-old Chuck Grassley for a six-year term and he looks and acts like he should be in a nursing home. But apparently they assumed he would be replaced by his grandson and that was OK. Look at who Biden’s replacement would be.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Baud: Last I checked, you were still polling better than the Bloom County Meadowcrats.
TBone
@NotMax: brain food comes in many forms 🤗
zhena gogolia
@ColoradoGuy: I just listened to the clip from the after party, and I think you’re right. His voice sounds 1000% better.
OzarkHillbilly
@Ksmiami: Yeah they will, they’ll make sure of that.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
It’s almost like Biden did what he needed to do and got Trump to show the nation what kind of irritating, lying sack of shit he is.
EarthWindFire
It’s also (checks calendar) 13 days until Donald Trump is sentenced on his 34 felony counts. Joe Biden’s bad debate performance will be a distant memory then.
He had a bad night. Dust yourselves off and move on, Dems.
jowriter
@YY_Sima Qian: Any idea who THAT might be? Not trying to be rude, but name one Republican with the ability to make hearts flutter with some kind of rational excitement. Right now I’m stumped. It’s a trash bag going on over there.
3Sice
I missed what they picked up on in the blizzard of shit, but Univision’s Latino undecideds completely noped on the convicted felon.
I did hear shithead’s tenor in his repeated use of “the blacks” – if you needed confirmation that he’s a complete racist piece of shit.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@p.a.: Yep. The rejoinder to the old quote, courtesy of Terry Pratchett’s The Truth:
OzarkHillbilly
@jowriter: We are not the people to ask.
TBone
Meme of the Day:
(The horse pictured is handsome, also too.)
Papa Boyle
Reading and listening to too many pundits trying to goad me into a doom loop. Reason #8978 why I don’t trust the media.
EarthWindFire
@Papa Boyle: Come sit next to me.
Hoodie
Concern that something like last night might happen may have been behind scheduling such an early debate. The people who run Biden’s campaign know his limitations as well as anyone and may have seen this as a road test to figure out what they need to work on. Sure, they wish he had a stronger performance, but no reason to panic when you know that polarization locks in a floor in the mid 40s. There is plenty of time to recover and Biden has certainly done that before after being declared dead in the 2020 primaries. In all likelihood, this debate won’t matter all that much. There is even a chance that Trump will think he’s got this in the bag and let go of the bare level of control he’s currently able to exert. It’s stupid to think about replacing the ticket.
Percysowner
I didn’t watch the debates and after hearing the reactions, I’m going on an almost complete news diet this weekend. I’ll stop by here, but other than that, I have books from the library and White Collar to comfort watch.
YY_Sima Qian
@jowriter: Mike Gallagher, but he is leaving Congress.
There are actually many cynical Repub politicians who are putting on the act of being crazy to play to the MAGA crowd to survive in the current Repub politics. They are also capable to putting on a different act to a different audience, but that requires the reactionaries dialing back the crazy just a bit & suppress the most overtly malicious elements. Reactionary movements are quite capable of making such an adjustment, but that probably requires Trump passing from the scene. A Trump defeat in Nov. (as we all fervently hope) might actually precipitate such a shift in style, & ultimately prove a more dangerous threat to liberal democracy in America.
3Sice
@jowriter:
Dwayne Johnson is narcissistic enough to give it a go. Seeing his attempt in taking over the DC franchise at Warner? Stick to B movies Rock.
jowriter
@YY_Sima Qian: You make a fair point; Trump must leave the stage for the next tyrant-in-waiting to emerge. However, Dems are building an excellent bench. I’ll reserve my current thoughts for finding ways to kick the orange menace into the orchestra pit in November and keep Joe where he belongs, in the WH. First things first.
Mousebumples
@159 for the sta,ps.: months of ads about Trump’s abortion statement would be *chef’s kiss
Mousebumples
@YY_Sima Qian: he’s actually already left Congress. (my former Rep) He timed his resignation so the seat wouldn’t be filled until the Nov election.
He used to be a full throated anti-abortion believer. Local rumor mill (*take with a grain of salt) is that his wife/family is not on board with that post-Dobbs.
I think he wants RoJo’s Senate seat.
satby
@YY_Sima Qian: Nah, they kicked Adam Kinzinger out. And he’s voting for Joe.
Betty Cracker
Jeebus, Tom Friedman at the NYT has gone full Van Jones: in today’s column, he says watching the debate “made me weep” and calls for Biden to step aside. Friedman is and always has been a putz, IMO, but people in the White House, including the POTUS, read and seem to respect him. Maybe this hysterical column will change that.
Shalimar
@3Sice: The problem isn’t the debate itself, and it isn’t manic progressive hot takes. It’s that every single story on every single news feed and news show I have access to is painting it as the end of the world. It all seems massively choreographed.
Dorothy A. Winsor
We get more Supreme Court decisions today. At least that might change the topic of conversation.
TBone
My cousin in Michigan got a new job (same institution) this week.
Program Manager of the Master’s programs in the School of Education!
WOO HOO!!!!! 🎉🤩
She is amazing!
YY_Sima Qian
@Mousebumples: You are right, & he did it as an FU to the House Repubs.
I think the more likely to be successful & the much more dangerous future leader of the reactionaries will be someone who is anti-Trump, riding in to “save the Republic & the Constitution” (& willing to use federal law enforcement, national guard & the military to do so), perhaps ever so slightly less extreme on social values, but otherwise hold all of the policy positions that R interest groups had tried to influence Trump (& GWB) to implement. Someone who is willing to sacrifice the most extreme of MAGAs in a “Night of the Long Knives”.
Right now, we are still in the “Beer Hall Putsch” phase of the reactionary movement in America.
Comrade Nimrod Humperdink
@Betty Cracker: The Mustache is gonna Mustache. Last night was rough, but I honestly don’t know how this is going to look in 2 weeks, and anybody who says they do is full of it. It’s not like Trump suddenly figured out how to appeal to normies. That geyser of obvious, ridiculous lies is going to piss off the more informed ones, and I doubt he made a great impression on even more disengaged ones. To me, people probably got what they expected to get. We were all hoping for far better, but we’ll see. In the meantime, I feel like Joe is going to need to be making the pitch every single day to push back on this.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker:
He did, at least at the start. It’s not bedwetting to say so. We are (allegedly) a reality-based community and not a cult, and I choose to believe my lying eyes and ears.
That said, there’s no need to panic. June is a long way off from November and Biden is a good president. His campaign organization is excellent, even if his debate prep team fell short. We still have agency and will–must!–win this.
bbleh
@Dorothy A. Winsor: also PCE inflation report.
@YY_Sima Qian: entirely plausible, unfortunately.
@Comrade Nimrod Humperdink: It’s not like Trump suddenly figured out how to appeal to normies. It was a slightly more controlled version of his standard rally schtick. At this point, that may be pretty much all he knows how to do. But it’s honed, and it definitely appeals to a lot of people. As to this particular TV show, the question is, how many people were watching who haven’t been exposed to it before, or who will judge based only on his composure and self-confidence? Probably some, so it has to count as a setback, but probably not many, so only a minor one.
hrprogressive
@Eyeroller:
I can’t speak for all other white left-of-center voters, but my anxiety comes from knowing that a lot of other white voters very easily, and capably, can be duped to vote against their own interests / dismiss the concerns people like me have because “I’d like to have a beer with that guy/gal” or some other nonsense.
Do I think it’s bad enough to agree that the ticket should be changed? No. It was one debate performance, which again, if you started watching from the 45-min mark onward, Biden sounded pretty decent and Trump sounded more and more unhinged.
But.
We got Dubya, and Trump, because a bunch of white folks swooned over something they heard or saw without doing a deeper analysis on the problems beneath the surface.
I’m worried too many of my fellow citizens could make that mistake again, and if it happens, it might be one of the last such mistakes they make.
jimmiraybob
@Chris Johnson:
“It’s picking sides, not picking Gods. You get to pick the full Dem team, …”
It is exactly about the team. The Biden White House is full of youngs from interns to paid staff that are learning good and effective governance under Joe’s leadership. And that includes Harris who I think could step in and do a more than competent job of continuing the Joe’s/Obama’s legacy.
And that goes for the legislature.
Team!
O. Felix Culpa
@satby: They’ve made an excellent ad with Kinzinger endorsing Joe, citing conservative values and protecting democracy.
Baud
@O. Felix Culpa:
I think you have to be ignoring your lying eyes and ears if you think our side just observes reality matter of factly rather than freaking out like their hair is on fire. That’s never been true as long as I’ve been watching.
Lacuna Synecdoche
I really want to know why we don’t have more people in the media and/or on our side going out there and saying how the debate showed what a sociopath Trump is, and how the GOP should be terrified that they’re going to lose with this obviously pathological buffoon on their ticket.
Seriously, our candidate is old. So is theirs – and their candidate is an unhinged violent lying sociopath with no hold on reality and no compassion for the American people.
This debate provided plenty of footage of Trump acting and talking insane. Let’s use it.
Democrats are not the ones who should be panicking; Republicans are. And pretty soon, once the sentencing begins and the debate footage gets distilled into ads, they will be.
Chief Oshkosh
@Shalimar: Maybe the outcome of zero votes supports his calls for election reform? ;)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
And did Trump do that last night? From the sounds of it, the reaction from the softies is “I would like to punch that orange guy in the face”
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: Mike Gallagher is taking a break, I think. Ron Johnson’s Senate seat comes up in 2028 and I expect Gallagher to go for it.
Thor Heyerdahl
@OzarkHillbilly: I voted in that election. The damn ballot was like a miniature parachute. 3′ x 2′ in size.
Eyeroller
@hrprogressive: My point was that the “professionals” immediately start badmouthing the candidate rather than defending him or her or making even the slightest effort to change the narrative. That is what can be really damaging.
Chris
@Shalimar:
This.
Like I said last night, the danger isn’t the debate. The danger is the media blitz that follows, which’ll effectively be wall-to-wall 24/7 “Biden basically had a stroke on stage! The Democrats are going to replace him any minute now!” and people’s willingness to follow its lead.
Right now I have various yellow-dog-D relatives texting me in freakout mode that OMG he needs to step down, and my other regular blog (LGM) has so far posted two articles demanding that Biden step down. CNN seems to indicate lots of Democrats are willing to feed that fire. The debate itself is completely survivable, but if even half the people who are supposed to be on Biden’s team are going to spend the next month with their hair on fire, well, that’s going to have an effect. And it’s what the media is trying to cause.
We’ll see what the polls say in a week or so.
YY_Sima Qian
@3Sice: Wait! What? When did Dwayne Johnson become a reactionary.
Just checked his Wikipedia page again, seems that he is a political invertebrate who fears offending his wrestling fan base. Definitely has a huge ego far too large for his actual talent. But no evidence that his sympathizes w/ reactionaries (particularly as someone of Samoan descent, long exploited victims of the still extant American empire in the Pacific).
OzarkHillbilly
@Thor Heyerdahl: Heh.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: People talk about mental balance but there is also something that could be called mental ballast. Van Jones and Tom Friedman lack mental ballast, so they blow with the wind.
Chris
@O. Felix Culpa:
Yeah, this. I don’t think anyone’s denying that Biden had a shit night. We question whether it means anything more than Obama or Dubya’s first debates (or indeed Trump’s), and why so many people are so frantically eager to believe it does and that the only possible recourse is something with massive downsides.
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: I think it’s a part, not the whole, of “our side” that tends towards hair on fire. Plenty of good, strong voices that have already been cited who are holding steady. The media are amplifying and encouraging the panic, because that’s what they do and what they wanted.
Biden’s initial performance last night was disappointing. That is true. But hot takes are often wrong. We–that is to say, I–focused on Biden’s performance during the debate because he’s my guy and who I wanted to hear and do well. I expected nothing but crap from the Felon, and that’s what he delivered. So, Biden fell short of (my) expectations and the Felon met them. None of that is determinative to the election.
As others have pointed out, the Felon provided a
goldshit mine of clips for negative ads. This debate will tip the balance to our side over time. Plus good, hard work to GOTV from all of us.moonbat
@Lacuna Synecdoche: Come sit by me.
I am so old I remember all the doomsayers predicting Obama wouldn’t win when he had an off night against Romney. Let’s dump the incumbent!
This is the stupid narrative the MSM has been pushing for more than a year now. Don’t fall into their trap. Eyes on the prize and point out the convicted felon’s lies.
lowtechcyclist
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
True, but how does he compare with the All-Night Party?
sixthdoctor
TBone
When asked if he felt if it was fair to criticize President Biden for his age, Dick Van Dyke made it clear he wasn’t so concerned about that.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/dick-van-dyke-ageist-joe-biden-donald-trump-1235933522/
TBone
@sixthdoctor: THAT’S MY JAWN!!!!! 😍
FUCKIN’ A
Soprano2
I don’t get why Democrats panic like this, over and over again, in spite of the history of it. They should have been out there talking about how TCFG lied about everything. When the questioner asks about Biden’s age, or being weak, just pivot to talking about yet more of TCFG’s lies, or how many of his former cabinet heads say they won’t vote for him, or how his former VP doesn’t support him, or how he didn’t say he would accept the results of the 2024 election, or any of a hundred concerning things about him. In this they should take a page out of TCFG’s book, and refuse to engage with the stupid questions they are asked and instead talk about what they want to talk about “The person who’s really weak is TCFG, because he wouldn’t promise not to sign a national abortion ban if Congress passes one”, or “The person who’s really weak is TCFG, because he can’t stand up to Putin. Did you see how he looked after he met with Putin in Helsinki in 2018 – he came out of their meeting looking like a whipped dog”.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: If Mike Gallagher wins the Senate seat, I’d say definitely keep a close eye on him. He is the type more likely to bring full on illiberal democracy or Fascism to America, & he would do so in the name of trying to win a Cold War contest w/ the PRC, & in his mind he would probably believe that he is defending liberty & democracy in America.
JWR
@NotMax:
Kolak says hi. ;)
oldgold
The debate conclusively demonstrated for me that as a candidate, not necessarily as a President, Biden is not up to the job. He simply is unable to effectively communicate as a campaigner. Watching and listening to him is hard work.
After last night’s debate debacle, it is more than appropriate for Democrats to seriously consider what options we might have other than Biden.
O. Felix Culpa
@Soprano2:
In part, I think that some are panicking because the stakes of this election are so very high. Folks are on edge, and not without reason.
You are correct, though, that a segment of our side is too easily spooked. We need to counter with steadfast determination. Or with what Geminid referred to at #75 as “mental ballast.”
Kirk C
The debate changed my mind. And my wife’s. We both will support whoever the Democrat is! But today we’re both on team please-for-the-love-of-god-find-somebody-else.
This is not choreographed, people! This is real.
Remember back in the 2020 primaries when nobody could decide who to support, and Bernie Sanders had a big lead, and then all of a sudden all the non-Bernie people were backing Biden? And how Bernie supporters said that was choreographed, controlled somehow by party insiders? No. People thought about who they would support and said to themselves: Biden makes the most sense because defeating Trump is all that matters and Biden is our best shot to win.
Defeating Trump is still all that matters! But Biden’s performance last night means he’s (OBVIOUSLY) no longer our best shot to win.
TBone
@JWR: 😊
TBone
@oldgold: GFY
Soprano2
I firmly believe 95% of the hand-wringing about Biden’s age is actually about this.
Gvg
@YY_Sima Qian: their voters don’t want an intelligent leader. He would make them feel stupid I think. They have been purging the really smart ones for the last 20 years. I noticed in Bush’s first term that their caucus was getting stupid. When McConnel goes, I think that’s it for them. But they think they are smart.
The businessmen who do support them, are turning into bankruptcies like Trump too. Someone should do a compare and contrast between the apprentice show and Trumps real business results plus those of his “famous” supporters.
narya
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Ding ding ding! I think that the SC thought they’d be doing the felon a favor; not so much.
Honestly, as I said above, the task remains the same. And anyone who thinks Joe should step aside, on the basis of one debate performance (I hear it wasn’t very good?), conducted before the parties’ nominating conventions and before one of the candidates is sentenced for felony convictions, well, I’m gonna continue to write postcards.
trnc
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Hopefully not to “Now that DT has full immunity that takes effect immediately …”
TBone
@TBone:
Nicolle Wallace was right (clip I posted the other day that caused pearl-clutching).
Just saying.
TF79
@Soprano2: I had the same thought – the media summaries all seem to highlight the firehose of bullshit, so just lean into that. “Trump lied 127 times in 20 minutes, the Republican Party should have him step down in favor of someone who can tell the truth” or “how can Americans trust someone who tells a new lie every 13.7 seconds or “in the time it takes you to get off the couch to grab a beer, Trump told three more lies” or whatever. Get out there talking about that
Soprano2
@Hoodie: I can tell you one thing they need to work on is not worrying so much about Biden knowing exact figures. Some of what I saw him struggling with last night was trying to recall exact figures for things, when the truth is most people don’t care about things like that. He needs to talk in broad strokes rather than details. Say you got drug companies to lower the price of many drugs rather than trying to recall a specific price, for example.
Eyeroller
@Geminid: Friedman in particular is catapulting the propaganda that his employer wants foregrounded. He may believe it, but he’s also immersed in their culture and always has been.
Barry
@Eolirin: “Or, you know that he wasn’t sick, or didn’t have a stutter or was five years younger, because all of those things would have changed the optics enough that the only story would be how Trump lied, rambled, and didn’t answer the questions.”
No, because the media has rarely done that. They like Trump.
H.E.Wolf
During this election cycle, there’ll always be plenty to talk about. This would be an excellent time to look around for something to do.
Balloon Juice currently has a thermometer in the sidebar to fund training for a GOTV organizer of color in Arizona this summer/fall. Donations are matched, so every $ is doubled.
Worker Power website: https://www.workerpower.com/
Leadership School page: https://www.workerpower.com/wpi-leadership-school
Postcards To Voters has an ongoing campaign to re-register FL Democrats to vote by mail, in advance of the November abortion-rights issue on the FL ballot. They’ll also have postcard campaigns for pro-choice Democrats in various states, so now’s a great time to sign up. If you buy stamps before July 14, you’ll beat the price increase.
PTV sign-up: [email protected]
Stamps by mail: USPS.com
Every local Democratic Party office will be glad to have canvassers and phonebankers, as will your favorite local Democratic candidate. For quieter volunteer jobs, ask their data team or their operations manager.
TBone
@TBone:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1805243567260016843
soapdish
Cis white male here, so take this for what it’s worth.
In previous debates like Obama vs Romney 1, Obama was not only going to have two additional chances to improve performance, but there wasn’t a specific ongoing weakness that the debate focused a light on.
Biden, on the other hand, has been having to deal with “too old” for the past three years and his performance last night reinforced that narrative in a big way. Someone over at LGM indicated that the Ariana Grande Theory voters are all circulating memes about Sleepy Old Joe’s performance and there’s zero chance that’s going away. Is that the end of the world? No, there are four months left until the election and I’m Team Broken Glass. It’s unfair, but Biden needs to be nearly perfect in the visual execution of the campaign (he needs State of the Union level performance every time) and he just dug himself a very big hole. His actual performance in office has apparently been irrelevant. Having a stutter or a cold doesn’t matter to the non-politically engaged voter; it appears as a weakness. It’s going to be capitalized on by TCFG’s campaign.
JFC, Biden haters and Trump Humpers are going to be insufferable.
Starfish
@YY_Sima Qian: What has the GOP done to make you believe that they want to be led by anyone intelligent and competent?
Barbara
Apparently the Biden campaign rolled out the first round of ads aimed at Hispanic/Latino voters during the Copa Americano last night. My daughter thought they were great. They are futbol themed and end with a ref giving Trump a red card telling him to stop talking.
Eyeroller
@soapdish: A lot of “meme circulators” are Russians. I’ve been reading in Wired about a big push by Russian influence ops for this election so I’m not just assuming this based on my prejudices. They are also going big into generative AI for memes and “clips.”
zhena gogolia
@Eyeroller: I agree.
Suzanne
@Chris:
I have to say that I think this whole discussion of Obama’s first debate with Romney is almost willfully missing the point. Obama looked somewhat tired and disdainful during that debate. But that’s not what people are concerned about with Biden. Like it or not, the concern with Biden’s age is about whether or not he has the capacity to accurately perceive reality and to make good decisions and to literally endure the stresses of the job.
zhena gogolia
@sixthdoctor: Thanks, John!
Nelle
I apologize for parachuting in like this; I’m on grandparent duty (yesterday and today). Three grandchildren (2, 5, and 7), but yesterday had seven kids busy building, coloring, cutting cardboard boxes on my big porch for their projects. So lovely having a big porch, though I could never have envisioned this might be what it can be used for. Usually, it is porch wine with the Democrats in the neighborhood. We may need to do that pretty soon if the panic I’m hearing is any indication.
I woke up to panicked messages from friends. I can’t go there. I can’t afford to go there in terms of health and stress. I can do what I can do and I might find more that I can do. What I need from you all is listing what you and your crew are doing to give me inspiration. All that DJT offers is individual crowing, division, subtraction, and tearing apart. We counter that with addition, multiplication, connection and a clarion call to be our best selves. For that, we need to share what we are doing to inspire, bolster, and stiffen our persistence and resolve.
Let’s be the best friend group to each other that we can be.
TBone
I’ve considered that President Biden may have information about what’s going on internationally that Dotard is not privy to. What was going on yesterday/last night in the wider world? President Biden is carrying a lot of weight and I’m gonna try to help him shoulder the load.
Scout211
I didn’t watch the debate and I am trying to avoid the news cycle of Democratic panic stories.
From what I gather, the results last night were: Biden is old, Trump is a crazy liar. Same story, different day. No reason to panic. And no minds will be changed.
I will take the advice of Governor Newsom who was tasked to support Biden yesterday with the media.
. . .
RevRick
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m with you there. We watched two episodes of the new season of The Bear, instead. Turned on MSNBC afterwards to hear the bedwetting, but Gavin Newsom did a good job of stomping on the “brokered convention” nonsense.
As Lawrence O’Donnell pointed out months ago, a challenger to President Biden would have had to begin three years ago, and all the millions raised by the Biden/Harris campaign can only be transferred to Kamala Harris.
Abandoning Biden now would be an utter disaster, since it would taint all the policies enacted by his administration. The GOP would have a field day.
Nelle
Oh, and today, the Iowa Supreme Court is duee to issue their ruling on the six week ban on abortion. Yay for Iowa.
Baud
@Scout211: Newsom has great talking points. He’s underrated in that respect.
AWOL
@Kirk C: GFY, wussy.
OGLiberal
@Eyeroller: “One stumble or off night by our candidate and so many are ready to throw in the towel or throw the candidate under the bus.” 2016. And she never had an off night. And the Dem president she was trying to replace was popular. This world would be a much better place if sexist assholes/idiots weren’t so Clinton obsessed. Shell-shocked, we are. Americans are stupid. It’s like we’re Italy. Biden had to eke it out in 2020 and only won because Trump’s handling of COVID was a train wreck. Of course, now folks think COVID is just a bad cold. (The CDC downplays it – no help) My immunocompromised son would disagree.
Joe is the only Dem candidate. Period. And he’s old, but a good man.
And can somebody explain to me the economic panic? Am I anxious about my finances? Yes. But I always am. How is this worse than the 2008-2009 mess? What are people seeing that I am not? Or is it just media narrative bullshit?
Josie
@H.E.Wolf:
Glad to see you post this. In addition, if you want a different post card group, there is Post Cards to Swing States.
https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards/
You choose your state and they send you the post cards and possible messages. You supply the stamps and the ink.
Easy peasy. I chose Nevada and am writing a few each day for mailing in October, as directed. I’m a dedicated introvert, so this is a perfect way for me to volunteer.
different-church-lady
There are no words for how pissed off I am about so many people supposedly on our side doing so much to make it worse.
Tony Jay
Pray fuck’em, as the good book doth say.
Quinerly
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I was actually hoping Trump would name his VP pick. Would definitely change the subject.
I think it will be Vance.
jimmiraybob
A question for the “Joe should step down” caucus. What’s the plan? Who’s warming up? Who gets put in? Can the Senate or House afford to lose a seat? I would be glad to vote a Kamala-Somebody ticket but who is the magical somebody else that would assure a victory?
Dorothy A. Winsor
This morning, I’m glad twitter banned me.
Quinerly
@hrprogressive: nailed it.
Starfish
@Gvg: I think it is more than just shedding intelligent voters. I think that they really needed to sully the office because they just could not stand the fact that a Black man won. There was a “We need to pick the dumbest, most obnoxious, and most criminal white dude to show you how little we think of the presidency now” going on.
Soprano2
@TF79: Yes, they should ignore what the questioners ask in favor of saying things like that. It’s what Republicans do, and they don’t seem to pay much of a price for it. Also, they should point out over and over that TCFG didn’t actually answer many of the questions he was asked last night, so doesn’t that prove that the questions don’t actually matter that much? Honestly, they could have had each candidate give a 5 minute speech about what they want to say and it wouldn’t have been much different except being much shorter.
soapdish
@Soprano2: “I don’t get why Democrats panic like this, over and over again, in spite of the history of it.”
Disappointment from 2000 coupled with PTSD from 2016.
Chief Oshkosh
@Eyeroller: Yep. Plouffe (or however you spell that name) and Axelrod need to be put in straight jackets and have their mouths duct taped shut.
Soprano2
@different-church-lady: Come sit by me. It’s as if they had no plan for their response at all.
OGLiberal
@jimmiraybob: i would guess folks think Newsom but most of the country doesn’t know who he is. Kamala would be great but a) shows weakness and b) 2016 was too recent – this country won’t vote for a woman, especially a brown one…and all the BS Clinton stuff would haunt her as well….she laughs funny, she’s shrill, something about her just bothers me. This fucking country.
It’s Biden or bust. And he’s a good man/president. But too many Americans want a psychopath for president – because that’s what they are – and it worries me. (OK, not all are psychopaths…some are just stupid.)
Suzanne
@soapdish: As for the thing about having a cold….. he should have started off the evening by saying that he had a cold. Fuck, this is basic image management: managing expectations.
UncleEbeneezer
@Eyeroller: This is one of the reasons I take fairly frequent breaks from BJ to go hang out in Black political spaces to get better perspective.
Very Online, Politically-Aware, White People are always ready to panic, second-guess and bash our own side. I have to fight the tendency in myself too. My guess is it’s probably some combination of White Guilt, Privilege and legitimate worry for others that makes us react very poorly to challenges. Someone should honestly research it.
So naturally places like BJ (and Lefty/Progressive/Dem Twitter) are gonna be where you will see the worst reactions possible.
Cacti
Biden shit the bed. He looked and sounded like a frail, cognitively declining old man. A cold affecting his voice is rotten luck, but very much had the optics of Hillary’s moment when she passed out and got tossed into the van by the Secret Service. It went about as badly as it possibly could have gone.
The only possible mitigating effect I see is that there are few people who don’t already have an opinion about Trump.
I guess we’ll know in about a week what damage, if any, was done with casual voters.
raven
Whining about the refs is fucking stupid.
Barry
@Eyeroller: “Friedman in particular is catapulting the propaganda that his employer wants foregrounded. He may believe it, but he’s also immersed in their culture and always has been.”
He has been full of it for decades.
oldgold
@AWOL: No, Kirk C. is a realist.
The Thin Black Duke
People who think running around with their hair on fire is a valid political strategy need to be ignored.
Josie
@soapdish:
I actually think the PTSD is from 2000. In my heart of hearts, even when we win, I can’t relax until our candidate is sworn in. I try not to think that way, but it’s there.
OGLiberal
@soapdish: 2016 lead me to give up on this country. It’s mine…ours. I love it…not in the stupid flag humping Trump way buy it’s my home. My wife and kids want to leave. Can’t really disagree with the sentiment. Too many assholes.
Chris
@RevRick:
Yeah, I think people are just in utter denial of what it means for a president to choose not to run for a second term. It is simply impossible to do without it being accepted by the entire political spectrum as an admission that your presidency was a failure and you’re too afraid to run on it. And then you stick your successor with the problem of how to somehow distance themselves from you and your loser stink without alienating critical constituencies, which if it’s even possible, certainly isn’t possible in this media environment.
Biden running in 2020 meant Biden running in 2024. Anyone who bought into the media bullshit about his one term was deluding themselves.
Betty Cracker
@Scout211: I didn’t watch the debate, but I have seen a few clips of Newsom, and he’s an excellent surrogate. McCaskill made the point that she’s an analyst, not a surrogate, which I think is a fair point.
That distinction got me thinking. Sometimes I wonder about what obligations non-professional Democrats — rank and file folks like (most of) us — have in a situation such as this. A couple of commenters in this thread shared their doomy takes and were told to go fuck themselves.
Fair enough! There’s a lot of GFY around here and always has been. There’s also what I would characterize as “clap harder” (i.e., Panglossian) takes that get brusque pushback sometimes.
I’m interested in hearing it all. Echo chambers are a bore.
OGLiberal
@Cacti: “casual voters” = stupid people. Maybe not in IQ but, still, stupid.
Feckless
Democratic party will not save you but billionaire media will not save you.
When Americans get together and fight we win. Tell everyone you know to call all the reps and tell them that they need to fight for democracy or get out of the way.
Soprano2
@soapdish: Sure, but there is absolutely no excuse for why they’re all over the TV, radio and newspapers saying all this crap. All of their emphasis should be on the firehose of lies that TCFG told last night. They should talk about how most of his former cabinet officials won’t endorse him or vote for him! That’s what they should be talking about, not wetting the bed over how Biden should step down. They should say what Heather Cox Richardson says, that he’s shown every day that he’s more than capable of being president.
If TCFG had really shit the bed appearance-wise, do you think even one Republican would acknowledge it?
rebelsdad (aka texasboyshaun)
Good morning. I’m exhausted from having to walk friends and family back from the ledge all night.
EarthWindFire
@Scout211: I’ve had my doubts about Newsom being a good team player. Happy to have been proven wrong.
Soprano2
@Suzanne: I agree with this, the very first thing he should have said was something like “I apologize in advance for the raspy voice, I’ve been travelling a lot lately and evidently I picked up a cold”. I can’t believe they didn’t tell him to say that, or that he didn’t do it on his own.
Glidwrith
@O. Felix Culpa: Agreed. Also, part of white anxiety may be this: If a white liberal is caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, they will be lynched by their fellow whites right along side the minorities.
The amount of day-to-day violence any given minority group lives with is far greater than any white person deals with but there are no coping mechanisms in place when our leader stumbles.
Basically, watch and trust the older black leaders, especially the women. Resolve to keep doing the work, knowing the work never ends.
Avalune
I have zero desire to check in with the talking heads today. Last night was a bit unfortunate in some regards but I kind of feel like morbid curiosity is the only reason anyone watched it anyway, so I doubt its impact beyond a couple days and an occasional mutter. Like many others, I’d vote for Joes corpse if it came to it and I don’t think much changed other than we are big sad he didn’t punch Trumps dumb face. 🤷♀️
JML
It’s important to remember that every Democratic strategist and former elected that appears regularly on cable news etc is there to criticize Democrats. If they cheerlead they don’t get to come back, they are quite literally paid to dog democrats. That’s the expectation and has been for literally decades.
It’s the raison d’etre for most of the DC insiders that supposedly are Democrats: cut down democrats and promote your own brand. Always run around and prove you’re smarter and better than the people doing the actual job so you can get the next tv gig…or grift those sweet sweet consulting fees off a candidate or committee. Ignoring them has almost always been the right idea.
Turns out Biden couldn’t win last night. The predetermined media narrative was that the debate was only about Biden, because once again they have no idea how to cover a serial liar and con artist who is never truthful about anything and is barely coherent.
Not shocked that the Obama Bros have the knives out, which is shameful but unexpected. They’re a bit of a cult themselves, and have never been able to own up to the fact that they utterly failed to capitalize on the massive popularity of BHO to generate a sustained movement and party support, and consistently got rolled trying to negotiate with the GOP in Congress. Obama was a good president, and a historic one, but Biden has been at least as good and arguably better and the people like Axelrod et al simply can’t handle that.
soapdish
@OGLiberal: Problem is, where you gonna go? With what money? Who’s going to take you? What are you going to do once you get there?
People come here illegally because even the shit jobs they do here are better than then jobs they could get back home. Things will be absolute shit here if TCFG wins but they’ll likely still be better for us* than if we went elsewhere.
* for specific values of “us”
Quinerly
@Barbara: this sounds great!
On a personal note, I am a bit devastated. Miguel, my best friend’s handyman, who has been helping me since my move (drives from Albuquerque, I even gave him and his family a little party at the end of last summer to show my appreciation when we finished the side yard project) has gone FULL TRUMPIST. Last year he despised him.
I had not seen Miguel since Sept (and the party) until about 10 days ago. After I paid him for that day, I thought he was leaving. Instead he settled in and unsolicited started spouting rather loudly about “doing my own research” and “listening to real people who know and are there.” In short, he went on and on about his love and respect for Putin, how we should “dump” Europe, quit giving money to Ukraine, end income taxes and go with Trump’s tariff plan. And did I know that the US is trying to end farming (like France has done) and have us all eat food grown in labs.
I could go on and on. It’s actually gets even worse than this. Total disrespect for me, raising his voice after I asked him to lower it. Up out of the chair he was sitting in and invading my personal space.
Total change in certain aspects of his personality and in his politics in less than a year. I am debating on sharing all of this with my friend who has known him 30 years and thinks of him as family. She’s 85 and going thru some health issues.
He truly has been brainwashed by wherever he is getting his information/”news.”
Soprano2
One thing I will say is that Biden’s prep people made the mistake of thinking that the debate would be more about what was said than about how things appear. One thing TCFG is good at is knowing what looks good on TV. You’d think the Biden people would be aware of this, but they don’t seem to be.
jimmiraybob
@OGLiberal:
“It’s Biden or bust. And he’s a good man/president.”
I agree 100% It’s time to buck up or don’t.
A “brokered convention” might have worked in the 50s or 60s but any change in course now would get hammered as weakness and dithering by the “We Want the Felonious Dumbass Strongman” Party.
Chris
Also, holy shit.
I just got an email from the Council on Foreign Relations (I get their daily news brief), and the headline is actually “Sharp Foreign Policy Contrasts In First Biden-Trump Debate.” It goes on to talk about and compare the actual statements made by the two candidates on foreign policy, complete with pointing out immediately that several Trump claims were him talking out of his ass, while only doing that once to Biden. It also calls out Trump for 1/6 and the refusal to abide by peaceful transfers of power. The only discussion of age in the entire post is when it calls Trump and Biden “the two oldest candidates” ever to run for President.
It then goes on to post a few soundbites from analysts, all of whom, again, are discussing the substantive differences between Trump and Biden.
Part of me’s shocked speechless that anyone anywhere is even doing this kind of fact-based write-up of the debate anymore. I’ve got plenty of skepticism of the Blob – about as much as I do the Village, in fact – but I have to give CFR its props, this is the first piece of actual reporting I’ve seen since the debate started.
satby
Popping back in to say nothing proves support more than a donation to the Biden campaign this morning. Which is being run by a Democratic organizer, since that’s important. Lots of bang for the buck today, to help steady the wobblies.
Harrison Wesley
Biden should step aside and the Democrats should nominate….Donald J. Trump!
A cunning plan!
Quinerly
@EarthWindFire: Newsome was awesome last night.
Truly helped my mental state.
Frankensteinbeck
Only Democrats have agency, I guess. Trump shit the bed, spewing crazy shit that will piss off absolutely everyone who didn’t already support him, but all that supposedly matters is Biden sounded old.
RevRick
@Chris: The interesting post-debate responses were from undecided double-hater focus groups who rated the outcome as a tie!
rebelsdad (aka texasboyshaun)
@Glidwrith: That’s why this white liberal doesn’t usually hang out with other white liberals.
YY_Sima Qian
@Starfish:
@Gvg:
Eventually, the idiocratic MAGA fever will break, due to electoral losses. However, does not mean the end of Herrenvolk nativism or the reactionary movement in America. A lot of elites are repulsed by Trump because Trump is crass, incompetent, & insufficiently committed to maintaining US primacy (whether the system of alliances & military outposts around the world, or the formal sphere of influence & quasi-colonial possessions in the Pacific, or the dollar hegemony), not because they themselves are committed to liberal democracy or permissive social values.
As I have written elsewhere, defeating Trump this Nov. is a rear guard action that must be fought & won if we are to prevent things from getting much worse much more quickly. However, it is still just a rear guard action. To advance against the reactionaries requires electing more &, more importantly, better Ds, since the policies promoted & implemented by Ds in the WH & Congress have not always been conducive toward that end. We need Ds willing to junk their slavish devotion to institutionalism & do everything w/in the bounds of law to stymie the reactionaries at every level of government.
Otherwise, we’ll just repeat the cycle of having D presidents be replaced by ever more authoritarian R ones, & Ds losing Congress after a cycle or two in control.
schrodingers_cat
@different-church-lady: You and me both. But I can’t say I am surprised. Bashing Ds is an easy way to appear to cool.
Scout211
What the media and many panicked Democrats are ignoring is that we are not just electing a president, we are electing a team of policy advisors, administrative experts, cabinet chiefs, military advisors, and a whole host of civilian government appointments.
Look at who Biden has chosen and will continue to choose to fill his administration and then look at Trump’s “deep state” team waiting in the wings to enact the project 2025 appointments. He will say anything at any time but the policy makers are poised to change our democracy in awful ways.
I hope the discussion in the media with all the panicked Democrats can turn to comparing the two administrations and who each candidate will bring to his administration. A Joe vs. Donald cage match is not the only fight here.
zhena gogolia
@TBone: That’s what my husband said.
Frankensteinbeck
@Soprano2:
I’m pretty sure turning every topic into a rant about immigrants, bragging about cognitive tests, defending Jan 6th rioters, bragging about overturning Roe, and saying that the air and water were perfectly clean during his administration did not look good on TV. He didn’t come across as confident or a skilled liar, he sounded like the guy you’re scared to be on the same bus with.
3Sice
@YY_Sima Qian:
The GOP will make a run at him. He’s an ego-manical dumbass with delusions of grandeur, and celebrity worship is at the core of Trumpism rather than ideology. A party hack will never have that sizzle.
Geminid
@Starfish: It doesn’t really matter what GOP voters want. They’ll respond to a slick and crafty, intelligent demagogue as well or better as they do to Trump. Trump’s basic laziness is a limiting factor for him, but a smart and energetic demagogue would not be so limited.
zhena gogolia
@Cacti:
Something that never happened.
Barbara
@Quinerly: Does he have a new girlfriend? Or has he started attending a new church? I would look for the social cues.
Kay
To me, it’s simple. Keep Biden, maybe lose. Replace Biden, definitely lose.
Also – never, ever be on the same side as the owners of the NYTimes :)
UncleEbeneezer
@Betty Cracker: “Clap harder” is what every coach asks of the bench when the game is on the line. We aren’t the coach, we are the bench. This is the time for fighting and supporting our team/party, not second-guessing/bashing it. Being a positive echo-chamber is part of how Republicans perpetuate their preferred narrative. We could learn a thing or two from that. Winning is all that matters. And all this pearl-clutching does nothing towards that goal and only makes it harder.
3Sice
@Barry:
I had it as a push, but if he made Tom Friedman cry, advantage Joe.
evodevo
@Suzanne: Yeah…he could have said “I caught a cold after coming back from the DDay commemoration. Unlike the former Prez, I spent a week over there cementing our alliances with Western Allies. Sorry if my voice is a little hoarse.”
Chris
@Betty Cracker:
Speaking as one of the people who’s dinged this blog in the past when I think it’s getting Panglossian, I think there’s nothing wrong with admitting that Biden had a shit night. He clearly did.
I also think Democrats with a microphone like Claire McCaskill have a responsibility to be a lot more careful in how they say this (and possibly shouldn’t say it at all) than little old us in the comments section of a random blog, but as someone a few comments after yours points out, the only reason Democrats are hired in the media is to shit on other Democrats, so as disgusting as it may be, it’s not surprising.
The question there is what your takeaway from it should be. And the best and most concise version of that I’ve seen on this so far has come from an LGM commenter: Biden needs to “dust himself off, get some throat lozenges, and carry on with the remaining four months of the campaign, like every “losing” candidate in every debate, including all your faves.”
People who somehow jump from “Biden had a shit night” to “Biden needs to step down” are wildly overreacting, doing exactly what Republicans and the media want, and not helping anyone.
MazeDancer
“Black jobs”
Trump should be hit up the side of his nead overand over with that. And “Latino jobs”.
Very fine racism out loud.
YY_Sima Qian
@Chris: Oh, the “Blob” definitely prefers Biden over Trump. The latter is entirely cynical, transactional, unprincipled & selfish, thus is insufficiently committed to maintaining US primacy & hegemony.
Betty Cracker
@Quinerly: Have been dealing with a similar transformation in a friend who is prone to falling down rabbit holes — my sympathies to you. It’s sad and disorienting. Since Miguel disrespected you and invaded your personal space, it sounds like telling your friend would be the right thing to do so she isn’t exposed to similar treatment. Just my $.02.
OGLiberal
@Frankensteinbeck: Agree with you but many of the folks we live amongst disagree. Like them, I am a basketful of grievances but not the same ones and certainly not willing to give up democracy for the false hope they will be assuaged. We live in a nation half filled with whiny children…and not talking about actual children.
Chris
@soapdish:
Also, where are you going to go that doesn’t have a rapidly rising fascist tide?
I actually can leave the United States: I have dual citizenship. With France. Yeah, that’s not really looking like a solution right now, is it?
jimmiraybob
It is impossible to debate a Trump. The firehouse of lies can throw anybody off as they are constanly torn between the desire to rebut the lies and presenting the material that you prepared for a good-faith debate.
Convicted felon and sexual assaulter Trump, is someone with no character or moral/ethical grounding, someone completely detached from truth and reality, someone who is a master of disruption and chaos. I don’t think that anybody would have stood a chance without an option to cross over with a baseball bat.
Cancel a second debate and keep hammering that there is no reason to justify and promote a convicted felon and sexual assaulter such as Trump, someone with no character or moral/ethical grounding, someone completely detached from truth and reality, someone who is a master of substanceless disruption and chaos.
A nation that wallows with pigs gets covered in dirt and pigshit. No offense to pigs, who show far more character and virtue than the Trump/MAGA Party.
Repeat, rinse, repeat …..
UncleEbeneezer
Jinchi
NBC bringing out the old hits:
“Some Democrats call for Biden to step aside and ‘throw in the towel’ on 2024 ”
Quoted in the article are a litany of characters including:
Some Democrats, a Democratic lawmaker, a second Democratic lawmaker who wants an open convention, a veteran Democratic strategist, a veteran Democratic operative, a Democratic operative, a Democratic strategist with ties to Capitol Hill and David Axelrod.
OGLiberal
@Scout211: “we are electing a team of policy advisors, administrative experts, cabinet chiefs, military advisors, and a whole host of civilian government appointments” Agreed. And many people don’t know or care about that. It’s a Simon Cowell show – see, 2016.
Cacti
@zhena gogolia: Right. And Biden sounded spry and sharp last night too. ;-)
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Chris:
Or what was said in the post:
White liberals I follow tonight: OMG we’re fn doomed Black Democrats I follow tonight: Fuck that bum, let’s go Joe
And somebody in the previous thread posted a link to Dan Guild:
https://nitter.poast.org/dcg1114
Everybody whinging about last night needs to remember what the base of party’s reaction is (“Fuck that bum”) and read Guild’s material.
libarbarian
The Democratic leadership must be replaced. They have spent the last 12 years pursuing a failed strategy.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Yep. That’s basically where I land too.
@UncleEbeneezer: I don’t think we’re the bench. People like Newsom, Whitmer, et al., are the bench. We are partisan spectators, and it’s okay to discuss our team’s foibles and strengths amongst ourselves.
Kay
To anyone bitching about CNN – Biden’s team chose the rules. Blame Anita Dunn – I have no idea why every Democrat hires this person but it is time to stop employing her. She sucks.
But I’m not going to win that fight because it is apparently a law that Anita Dunn has to be hired in perpetuity, no matter her performance. I just hope Bidens (excellent) campaign manager can get around her incompetence
shes a fucking anchor around our necks
Chris
@jimmiraybob:
A brokered convention didn’t even work in the fifties or sixties. Truman and Johnson both stepped down because they thought their poll numbers would be an anchor around the party’s neck, and in neither case did it help the party. Truman gets a mulligan because no one from either party was going to beat Eisenhower, but I really wonder if Johnson shouldn’t have stayed in. Brazenly going on ahead and never apologizing is what a lot of people in this country see as “leadership.”
The Thin Black Duke
A delusion that too many Chicken Littles allegedly on “our” side succumb to is the idea that there’s always One Weird Trick or a magic spell or a well-aimed one-liner is all that’s needed in the political battlefield to get the mythical “undecided voter” to change their minds. It doesn’t work that way; never did. As always, turnout is the key. Don’t waste time on voters whose ideas are set in concrete. We don’t have a hammer big enough.
evodevo
@Barbara: Or maybe medical ones – is he over 50 and chunky build? Think untreated diabetes 2..or ministrokes. Personality changes like his would have me sending him to the Dr if it was my family..
TBone
Comment of the Day
RevRick
@OGLiberal: casual voters decide the election, so sneering at them does us no good.
OGLiberal
@soapdish: “Problem is, where you gonna go? With what money? Who’s going to take you? What are you going to do once you get there?”
This is exactly what I tell my wife and kids but they are scared so I get the sentiment. One big thing holding me back is my son’s medical needs….those great socialist countries don’t just give you free healthcare when you move there…takes years, and can’t afford that.
Kay
Maybe firing some or all of the communications team would help reassure Democrats and donors
This is too big an error for them to survive in those jobs. IMO
everyone makes mistakes but some mistakes get you fired – he should fire them
schrodingers_cat
Biden had a cold and his voice was hoarse. He didn’t have the best debate night. He didn’t land a knock out blow. Trump on the other hand was spewing lie after lie. Being obnoxious and making faces. Trump’s performance was for his cult. I don’t see how it managed to convince anyone outside the cult that his performance was worthy of a presidential candidate. CNN moderators gave their favorite candidate a boost. I see self proclaimed arbiters of cool dumping on Biden. I am not going to join that amen chorus.
TBone
@zhena gogolia: you married well, a person with foresight and empathy. Hold on with both hands ❤️
zhena gogolia
@Kay: Then it would be, “What ever happened to ‘the buck stops here’?” And rightly so.
Kay
This is a bad enough fuck up that if I were Biden I would actually look into whether they are working against him
as in “actually being paid by opponents”
but it’s easier to just fire them
Quinerly
@Barbara: same wife. Same job. He’s an immigrant. Came here as a child. His last wife (he’s been with her 20 years is about 8 years older. Doesn’t speak English.)
It’s very bizarre. The other guy who helps me (Bogart) is originally from CA. His parents are a wonderful love story and truly successful immigrant story. Bogart was here and saw it all go down. They had worked together here last summer. Bogart is between jobs (artist and musician) and just an overall nice, polite, handsome young man. He was mortified in the change in Miguel. And, so upset, that he called his mother on his drive home to discuss it. Bogart was very upset over Miguel’s sudden disrespect for me. I guess I was in such a state of shock that I zoned out and didn’t pick up on some of the body language. First thing Bogart said to me when he was back (obviously no Miguel present) was, “can we talk about Friday. I have been upset.” That’s when I realized the personal stuff he picked up on re Miguel’s behavior towards me. I am glad I had a witness…for my own piece of mind as I continue to go over this.
It actually is more to this…something very disturbing that I learned since that Fri. No time to get into that now. Miguel has fallen into some very deep dark places on the web.
Josie
@schrodingers_cat:
I love this comment.
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
Not true – he isn’t supposed to be running every aspect – it was 100 per cent their job
”communications” is an actual identifiable group of people. He can and should replace them.
OGLiberal
@Chris: I always note that to my family and they don’t disagree. But they’d probably trade off a bit of facism for less guns. They’re scared every time we go to a mall and can’t blame them. Plus, we mask all the time because my son is immunocompromised and we are increasingly getting shit for that from random people. Why does it matter to you? This fucking place.
Chris
@Scout211:
I mean, the really honest answer to questions about Biden’s age is that it doesn’t fucking matter even if he does win the election and keel over literally the day after. All that happens then is Kamala Harris takes over and proceeds to run the country pretty much the same way he would have. We’re electing a government, not a person.
The reason people freak out about old people on the Supreme Court isn’t that they might die in office, it’s that they might die in office at a time that leaves their seat open to be filled by fascists. That’s clearly not how presidencies work, so I plain don’t care if Biden’s too old to serve his entire term. FDR died a few months from his last reelection, and everybody carried on just fine.
But of course that’s not something you can ever tell the low-infos.
Suzanne
@Soprano2:
Yeah, thank you. Image is a critical part of this job. That has been true forever.
Look, the median age of American adults is 44. The highest it has ever been. I feel like the younger crew has been shouting at the top of their lungs that Biden is fucken old, and the older crew just does not want to hear it. But the core of the concern, what they were trying to say but not getting through…. is that they want a president who represents their best qualities and their aspirations. It is not weird for that to be the case: the president has always served a representational role. But by showing up sounding so sick and, quite frankly, out of it….. that takes the age shit genuinely into questions about basic-ass fitness for the job.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: As I mentioned, I didn’t watch the debate, but from what I’ve read (and from my normie husband’s description of the portion he saw), it was more of a message delivery issue rather than a prep problem.
I mean, maybe you’re right and cleaning house would reassure panicky donors, in which case perhaps it’s worth doing regardless of whether it’s “fair” or not? But it could also be perceived as panic at the top.
Frankensteinbeck
If you are someone interested in an issue and watched the debate to find out where the candidates stood, Trump gave the wrong answer, no matter what the issue was. Even his immigration stance was nothing but “20 million illegals taking our jobs and killing people!!!”
EarthWindFire
Deleted due to user error
Quinerly
@evodevo: over 50, chunky.
Something has happened….obviously. as I said it gets a bit worse. Up until I got qued in on the “worse” I was going to lay it all out to my friend. Perhaps she and her daughter could sit him down and have a long talk since they have known him so long. Rely on him. I just can’t lay it all out right now. I am about creeped out by the “worse.” Trying to process it.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@YY_Sima Qian: I’m not so sure. I still see someone like Hawley stepping into the gap. He’s reactionary all right, but also has some coherent policy positions, especially around cybersecurity. We laugh off his fist wave, followed by panicked sprinting, but he’s dangerous.
YY_Sima Qian
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I agree on Hawley. I would have thought Tom Cotton, too, as late as 2020, but it appears that he is actually crazy & not just putting on an act. Would slide right in as SecDef or AG in a Hawley Administration.
Quinerly
@Betty Cracker: thanks for weighing in.
I have to get to that point with the friend. Just trying to figure out how to get to that. There’s another layer to this that will need to be added. That’s what I am trying to sort out.
Kay
Ugh. How Trump narrowed his eyes and used “Palestinian” as a slur. Not even bothering to attach “Hamas”.
Just chilling. Genocidal. He wants them exterminated.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Soprano2:
Agree completely. It was clear malpractice. I don’t know what they were thinking. That being said, I’m calmer today. I knew this wasn’t going to be a slam dunk and that Trump wasn’t going to come off as feeble. We’ve got a hard fight ahead, but we can win.
EarthWindFire
@Kay: Agreed. They were not prepared for the Gish gallop that is DJT’s only debating skill.
Cacti
I aged out of the younger crew some time ago, but have children in its ranks and you’re completely over the target when it comes to their feelings about Biden. They can’t stand Trump but have issues with Biden as the face of a Dem gerontocracy, that feels largely indifferent to their concerns.
And pointing that out in the BJ comment section goes over like a fart in church, because it skews old.
PJ
@Chris: Johnson would have fared better than Humphrey, for sure. Of course, if Johnson had gone public with the info Nixon had deliberately sabotaged the Vietnamese peace talks, whether he ran or not, I think it would’ve damaged the Republicans a lot.
This is all hindsight, but that’s what we have to use when we’re making decisions about the future. Abandoning Biden would almost certainly guarantee that Trump wins.
Suzanne
@evodevo:
Yes.
Turn that negative into a positive. Set expectations. Show enough theory of mind that you understand that people have concerns.
Fuck. Why do we make these stupid-ass errors?!
Nelle
And there it is – Iowa Supreme Court (aka Kim Reynold’s Supreme Court) is allowing the 6 week abortion ban to go into effect. 4-3.
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2024/06/28/iowa-supreme-court-clears-way-for-6-week-fetal-heartbeat-abortion-ban-womens-rights/74169072007/
JML
Clare McCaskill should have come out throwing 150mph about Trump lying lying lying, as should every single Democrat who had access to microphone after the debate. But that doesn’t get you invited back to the big show. Instead of apologizing for Biden having a cold and/or not being perfect last night and somehow shedding 20 years in real time, fuck that noise: get on the attack. Trump is a lying incoherent sack of crap who will sell out America to line his pockets, he will lie and steal and screw over anyone who gets in his way. He only cares about himself and was an awful president. Period.
Rinse, repeat.
But nooooo…Democrats got to eat our own.
Jeffg166
@JPL: The Bill of Rights was not the founding fathers or intent. It was an add on.
Kay
@Suzanne:
my middle son is 26 and he likes Biden a lot. IBEW Local 8 in Toledo like Joe Biden a lot.
He was very upset last night – sending me all caps texts – completely out of character.
Just fire the comms team and get on with it. That’s what I would do.
Jeffg166
@Betty Cracker: It will all come down to the electoral college again. This time the winner will get in with less than 20,000 votes.
UncleEbeneezer
@Betty Cracker: We are part of the team. We literally help determine the outcome. What do you think helps our team more in the final stretch: 1.) cheering them on or 2.) debating their choices?
There’s a reason coaches, cheerleaders, mascots and the announcers start “Here we go Rays!” chants in the 9th inning instead of saying “Hey everyone why don’t you all focus on all the things the team didn’t do perfectly, to make sure we aren’t an echo-chamber…”
Ask any athlete/team which helps them win more, a positive, supportive, vocal crowd or one that is busy debating.
Better yet, look at something like an Oscars PR campaign. Where the goal is literally to get people (Academy Voters) to vote for your film. Do the studios put their time, money and effort into encouraging unbiased, critical discussions of the possible flaws of their films? Or do they have their gorgeous stars do a bunch of interviews and red carpet appearances to sell the greatness of them? We are the Academy Voters and the more we spread the word about our fave film, the better chance it has at convincing others.
The question right now is: what are you doing to help Biden win and defeat Trump? Adding fuel to perpetuate the constant criticisms of him from the GOP and the Left, is not a good answer. It doesn’t help the Party. It doesn’t help convince others. It only harms our chances and helps Trump/GOP/Russia by doing exactly what they hoped we’d do.
Kay
I would actually be ok with replacing Biden with Harris – but that’s not what the NYTimes employees are demanding
they want someone other than Harris, which is just insane
you can’t just pass over her, knuckleheads that’s suicide
Quinerly
@JML: for what it is worth, she explained last night (practically in tears) that she is a political analyst not a surrogate
And that she wished she was a surrogate at that point.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Suzanne:
I know. Last night, after he lost his train of thought and trailed off, it really upset me. Then his response about the 3 abortion phases did not make sense. It reinforced everything they’ve been saying about him. That said, we’ve got what we’ve got. He had clear answers and responses later. Harris is the VP. Trump is vile. I’m scared, but determined.
Almost Retired
Live-texted the debate last night with my sons and daughter-in-law and a couple other bonus millennial and Gen-Z family members. Much hand-wringing, airing of generational grievances* and somewhat mean spirited mocking from the young ‘uns. But in the end, they’re all voting for Biden. Which was all I needed to hear to accept Senator Fetterman’s advice to “chill the fuck out.”
*One nephew is a single-issue voter on student loan forgiveness – although it seems a bit unlikely that forgiveness of his loans for his MBA from a pricey private university will be on any politician’s list of top priorities.
Kay
I said to my son this am “well, are YOU still voting for him?”
he said yes
so maybe other people feel the same?
Keith P.
Wasn’t Trump supposed to debut his VP at the debate?
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@The Thin Black Duke:
👍
Omnes Omnibus
@UncleEbeneezer: Another concern I have is that we, as a group, get into our own heads. Something bad happens and we start to dwell on on the negative possible consequences to the exclusion of the anything else. The better response, IMO, is figure out what went wrong, whether we could have prevented it so that we can avoid having it happen again, and how to move forward. Then fucking forget about it. It is in the past. It can’t be changed. The only thing that matters is how we deal with it.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kay: If I was a young person, climate change would definitely be something to worry about, and Trump refused to talk about it. At least the “old geezer” is taking the melting icebergs seriously.
schrodingers_cat
@Josie: Thanks. BTW Hillary won all the 3 debates.
That wasn’t enough, WW and WM still voted for the Orange Man. 4 years of unhinged governance and he still won the white vote hands down.
What is the demographic breakdown of major newspeople and influencers on social media or FPers and commenters on blogs like this one. They are dominated by WP, even those who vote D are influenced by their demographic and join in the Dem bashing heartily. Few resist this urge.
Suzanne
@Cacti:
I am 44, so exactly the median age. Spawn the Elder will be voting for the first time this cycle. He is trans, and he is not dumb, and he’s voting for Biden. But holy shit. Many of his friends legit think that the Dems are not listening to them. I might not agree, but it doesn’t matter what I think. It matters what they think. We need to convince them.
We have Kamala Harris and Josh Shapiro and Gretchen Whitmer and Pete Buttigieg and Gavin Newsom and AOC and a lot of other great talent. Is there a way we can employ them more successfully? Fuck, make a task force of those people. Call them #FUTURETEAM and go out and talk about ***what they will push President Biden to do on their behalf***.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@JML:
We called her Feckless Claire back in the day for a myriad applicable reasons.
OGLiberal
@Kay: Many Americans would be fine with that because they are sociopaths. And most of the “many” hate Jewish people. Monsters.
Chris
@YY_Sima Qian:
The Blob prefers neither of them. They’re Republicans. They want their George W. Bush types back and are as queasy about Democrats as they are about Trump, having imprinted way back in the day on the image of Democrats as DFHs who wouldn’t let us win. They’ll never forgive Biden for Afghanistan and have been loath to give him any credit for Ukraine.
So yeah, this kind of thing is still noteworthy.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@libarbarian:
Easy enough to do. Get more progressives elected and then they can chose the new DNC leader. Unfortunately, they need a strategy that wins them elections first. They are really struggling with that part. They are going to lose ground in this upcoming election. Jamall Bowman lost. Cori Bush is going to lose too.
OGLiberal
@Cacti: My son hates Trump but thinks Biden is terrible. He just turned 18. Thankfully, he’s not stupid enough to fall for Bobby Jr. crap. He does like Bernie.
Cacti
Sounds like a terrific idea. To this point, I think the Biden campaign team can be fairly criticized for being too insular, too DC-centric, and for not using surrogates effectively.
Chris
@The Thin Black Duke:
I think the delusion people keep holding onto is that there’s any way to run a Democrat who won’t immediately get so pilloried in the media for every possible thing that he’ll inevitably end up with some version of “but he’s old,” “but her emails,” “but he sighed” dragging him down. If only we’d run someone else, someone who didn’t have this glaring, obvious flaw, then we’d be cleaning up! Because surely the media wouldn’t immediately create another glaring, obvious flaw around whoever we did nominate.
And the reason people cling to this delusion is that they’re still incapable of recognizing that the media is about 90% Republican interest group.
Juju.
@Eolirin: Apparently a hoarse voice cancels out the quality of the content of which you are speaking. Who knew? I just want to scream he is an 81 year lad man with a cold and a hoarse voice, it happens to the best of us sometimes.
schrodingers_cat
The so called progressives have brought out their knives. They have never forgiven Biden for beating their favorite candidate in 2020 in the primaries.
Harrison Wesley
My apology if somebody’s already posted this, but it’s one of the most interesting articles I’ve seen on the rise of fascism.
https://scheerpost.com/2024/06/25/michael-brenner-signposts-to-perdition/
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: It sounds like you’re saying that even in obscure corners of the internet like this, and presumably also within real-life friend and family groups, we are obligated to create and disseminate positive spin. I don’t agree. There are people whose job it is to do that, but it ain’t us.
If people want to be freelance party PR agents — and some folks clearly do — good for them. But it’s not a requirement to be a good Democrat, IMO, any more than it’s a requirement for me as a Rays fan to endorse Cash’s strategy all the time and avoid sharing misgivings with fellow fans.
Also, consider that at least some of the “doomers” might be acting in good faith. Perhaps they sincerely believe Biden is an anchor who will sink our ticket, and they’re trying to conjure a scenario that gives us a better chance of retaining the White House. I don’t agree with them, but I don’t think every one of them is a saboteur and/or Russian agent either.
Maybe a better tactic than shouting them down is to try to change their minds, at least if you believe they are sincere and not trolls. Explain why a last-minute brokered convention would be a disaster. Put the candidate’s performance in a single debate in broader context.
Soprano2
@Scout211: I was disappointed that Biden didn’t mention Project 2025 last night.
Chris
@OGLiberal:
In my case, it’s the health care – UHC is much more entrenched in France, at least for now, and the vulture-capitalists behind Trump aren’t going to stop going after it here. But even there I’m under no illusions that it’ll be safe forever.
Suzanne
One thing I will note….. Spawn the Elder has been very straight-up about how he and his friends support student loan forgiveness, even though they haven’t graduated from anything….. because they see their parents struggling to repay their student loans.
That is part of a narrative of generational decline that they feel.
Renie
My .02. Biden should have announced at the beginning he had a cold. His prep team should have given him more “phrases” to use when trump lied even using one of his time allotments to make a strong statement about it. All these Democrats talking to the media should only talk about Trump’s lies and outrageous statements. Ignore media questions about Biden being old (GOP ignores media questions all the time with no push back). Those saying Biden needs to step aside are hurting the party and you need to wonder what their objective is cuz they are helping the GOP and the media push their own agenda.
Cacti
@Juju.: Debates are as much about optics as they are about content.
For Biden, the goal in that respect was to make him look like he wasn’t a nursing home patient with one foot in the grave.
Their grade on that count is an F.
pieceofpeace
@Chris Johnson:
THIS! And may this be highlighted over and over. Trump was managed and will be moreso if elected.
I can imagine those unseen forces have a cabinet and their preferred agendas in place for times ahead.
tam1MI
OK, fine. Name the candidate that can step in with 5 months left to go, build a war chest equal to Trump’s, and rally the party behind them, including the 90% of primary voters who will have been effectively disenfranchised and their votes nullified by ousting Biden. I wanna know just who this miracle worker candidate would be. Put your money where your mouth is and give me a name.
Suzanne
@Cacti: FUCK, Like, call it OUR AMERICAN FUTURE 10-POINT PLAN or something. Make a great graphic of it and blast it on social media ads. Send it in text messages. Make it a fucken meme.
This should not be hard. Biden has a record of accomplishment and the Dem ensemble is deep!
Sean
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
@Suzanne:
I think that’s what worried me the most. Comparing this to 2012 Obama or 2004 W. lacks the context that this election is fully framed by the media as Biden being too old to handle the job. That isn’t what the 2004 or 2012 elections were about, so a bad debate could be easily downplayed. Biden’s performance created so many moments where fence sitter types will see the footage and freakouts and it will confirm their priors. This debate doesn’t change hyper partisan minds, but it can change the mind of low info voters who now see the debate as a confirmation of the long prevailing narrative (aided by deceptively edited video and a miserable media) of an unfit Biden. It’s defining in a way Obama/Bush having a bad night wasn’t. I’m not giving up or anything. I’m going to vote for Biden, donate and advocate for others to, but this is a significant setback in what is already a depressingly close race.
YY_Sima Qian
@Chris: I would recommend that you read Van Jackson’s (himself an alum of the Obama era DOD) commentaries on the D side of the “Blob”, as exemplified by persons such as Kurt Campbell & Michelle Flournoy, & their cozy relationships w/ traditionally R-leaning members of the FP elite such as Robert Kagan (who nonetheless have no trouble finding employment in D administrations, or offering advise behind the scene). Or how recent Biden Admin. alums such as Rushan Doshi hobnob so easily on the think tank circuit w/ avowed reactionary-adjacent militarists such as Hal Brand or explicitly pro-Fascist (& implicitly pro-Putin) alums of the Trump Admin such as Elbridge Colby.
It is absolutely not just the R-leaning part of the US FP elite who are committed to US primacy & hegemony at all costs. That is why it is called the “Blob”, & how so many Ds have ended up supporting so many FP disasters during & post-Cold War. The R-leaning ones are just less polite & more overtly aggressive about.
dnfree
I made this comment in the Supreme Court thread and it was requested that I move to this thread instead.
I’m sharing the electoral-vote commentary on the debate. They write their impressions and observations before comparing to other responses. And they also made the statement to each other that either of them could have done better than Joe without preparing, which is the same statement I made to my husband—that he (at nearly Biden’s age) could have done better. They even make the same comment I made about Biden’s resting facial expression. It made him look dim-witted.
They also summarize responses from other sources. I never anticipated the debate could go that poorly for Biden.
https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2024/Items/Jun28-1.html
db11
@tam1MI:
That’s obvious: Johnny Unbeatable!
Harrison Wesley
@YY_Sima Qian: Bi-partisan American foreign policy is grounded in American exceptionalism. Thus, the rest of the world is viewed through the George W. Bush lens of “you’re either with us or against us.” This obviates all need for subtlety or negotiation or any of that limp-wristed shit. If you’re against us and you’re a peer or near-peer state, you get lectures. If you’re against us and not quite up to near-peer status, you get threats. If you’re with us, you get orders. Well, OK, maybe you get some American military bases and IMF loans you can’t repay.
Changing terminology doesn’t work. You can change “imperialism” to “rules-based order;” SSDD. Likewise renaming “the white man’s burden” as “responsibility to protect” doesn’t alter a fucking thing.
suzanne
And unfairly or not…. Biden’s age is an issue because lots of younger people feel like their own grandparents are out of touch with their concerns. Is it fair? No. Reality? Yes.
schrodingers_cat
@Harrison Wesley: If you are asserting that Biden’s foreign policy is no different from Trump’s you are a bad faith commenter. Eat pie.
Harrison Wesley
@schrodingers_cat: Au contraire. Biden is America-first; Trump is Trump-first. Trump is not part of the U.S. foreign policy establishment; his “policies” to the extent he has any are usually worse than what we’ve got, since they don’t even pretend to look out for American interests. I think American exceptionalism sucks, but Trump exceptionalism is off the charts.
Ksmiami
@Kirk C: slot in Gretchen or Polis and let them fight to the finish
Bokonon
“Strong and wrong beats weak and right.”
-Bill Clinton
Bupalos
I thought very strongly in 2022-2023 that Biden should announce retirement and non-endorsement, specifically stating that while he was exceptionally healthy for someone in their late 70’s, that it wouldn’t be responsible to subject the country to the whims of age, which remains undefeated. That act on its own would have taken twice as big a bite out of fellow too-old-man Trump as any campaigning he could do.
That would be true even if Biden hadn’t lost the political communication and political jousting skills of younger days, which he has. He isn’t capable of doing what Harris does in her reaction clip. He wasn’t capable of taking in what Trump was doing, (flip-flam post-truth gish-gallop) calling it out, and reorienting to reality and to our message and presenting that contrast. He was struggling to simply maintain his canned fact-stream, rushing through it to cram as much in there as possible. A cognitive-canter to oppose a gish-gallop? Folks want to blame this on a cold or on incompetent debate prep or a stutter. It’s just the reality of age based cognitive decline, it’s the reality of what Biden can and cannot do at this stage of his career.
The messaging folks need to digest the reality of Biden’s limitations here and adjust the approach. We need to focus on the differences between campaigning and governance, appearance and reality. I think we’re set up for a bit of a trap right now of seeing our candidate as flawed and thinking the solution to that is go 100% on the flaws of TFG. There of course has to be some “compare me to the alternative,” but that can’t be the only message, and there’s a danger to democracy in that message: “How is it that the system only spits out these alternatives we hate?”
Trump may win. It was likely before and it’s trending in the wrong direction. That isn’t doom, first and foremost because Trump is widely unpopular. He is also incompetent, his administration would be full of infighting and jockeying the way any rabble like this would be, the presidency isn’t currently structured to allow a tyrant, and there is a deeper cultural commitment to democracy in this country than we realize. It’s not doom, it’s a call to action, but effective action does require we stay oriented to reality.
Ksmiami
@Kay: totally. They used an old dc playbook and we’re worthless
YY_Sima Qian
@Harrison Wesley: Uh, there is still a difference even in FP. Van Jackson, despite being a relentless & vociferous left wing critic of Biden’s foreign/trade policies & the thinking/assumptions that underly these policies, had recently laid out the stakes in Nov. in clear & stark terms. However problematic, counterproductive, or detached from reality Biden’s foreign/trade policies are, they merely represent the starting from which a 2nd Trump Administration will sprint toward far more dangerous/destructive directions.
The Biden’s & most Congressional Ds’ embrace of Great Power Competition to preserve US primacy are jeopardizing the fragile “Asian Peace” & serve to empower authoritarians & militarists everywhere both in the US & in the US’ rivals, Trump & the Rs will fully embrace no holds barred Cold War w/ the PRC, some among them are eager to fight a hot war, & the sooner the better. Biden team’s economic nationalism against rivals/neutrals/partners/allies alike undermines the global economic order & causes economic disruption that will prove costly to everyone, but the Trump team is set to completely blow up global trade & financial flows in very short order.
That is why I, despite being a strong critic of Biden’s PRC policy specifically & foreign/trade policies in general, will crawl over broken glass to vote for him & Ds just on foreign & trade policies alone (albeit not enthusiastically). That is before we get to domestic policy issues such as protection of minority rights, defending the welfare state, fighting AGW, or preserving the Constitutional order. The reactionaries have to be defeated one battle at a time, the rear guard action has to be fought & won.
dnfree
@soapdish: Also PTSD from 2004 with Kerry. Swiftboating not responded to plus a poorly-run campaign. GW should not have been re-elected.
dnfree
@OGLiberal: We have an adult daughter who doesn’t live with us who is immune-compromised. The whole “Covid is no big deal now” attitude is so frustrating.
Bupalos
@Betty Cracker: You’re always solid gold BC.
I do understand the feelings here and the desire for a kind of pep-rally/support group. We’re all scared and probably a little confused on how we got to the point we’re at. It’s all a little destabilizing.
dnfree
@Juju.: It was the content besides the hoarse voice. He stumbled over details (that he didn’t even need to go into) and at one point got so tangled up that he said we had “beat Medicare”. The electoral-vote link I shared gives a good example.
TEL
@The Thin Black Duke: Yep – as always, we have to do the work. No-one is going to save us except ourselves, doing the work to get democrats elected.
OGLiberal
@RevRick: I know but I’m sick of folks saying they are too busy to pay attention and then they go vote based on “feelings” or whatever the fuck. 15 minutes a day folks….15 minutes. Pay attention and stop being “casual”. I can sneer at them because it’s their fault.
OGLiberal
@dnfree: We are the weirdos now. I worked from home for the better part of 8-years, starting pre-COVID because my family needed me home due to my son’s health issues. When the powers that be – and this includes the CDC – decided that COVID is “over”, my asshole company made me a) re-locate from NYC to Nashville and b) made all of us come to the office in an open floor plan 3-days a week. They even check card swipes because, apparently, some folks were only coming in 2-days a week every once in a while. I double mask at the office and I’m about the only freak doing it. My family is still in NJ and I have to quarantine for a few days and test before I can see them….and I have to drive 13-hours because planes are, well, planes – they made you sick before COVID. And they are clearly laying the groundwork for that whole “work from home” stuff to never happen again. The thing is that my company made a shit ton of money in 2020-2021 when everybody was working from home. Doesn’t matter – the execs don’t like having their fiefdom out of sight and the states/cities that house companies like mine force companies to make their folks come back to the office or they’ll take away the tax breaks. My son is clearly at a health risk but because it’s not my health risk they don’t give a fuck. ADA doesn’t help caregivers/parents much.
libarbarian
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
The influence of progressives is the problem. Allowing them that much influence in the party was the key failure.
TBone
@libarbarian: poppycock
scav
Passing along a nigh perfect neologism my mother stumbled into: Doomsplainer. many examples above.
Mapaghimagsik
@Soprano2: strange. It gives me comfort, not that id want anything to happen to my president
Bupalos
@scav: We’re not even doomed if Trump wins. This is a long fight that doesn’t end on Jan 20, 2025. There are some horrible dark clouds that roll in with a defeat, but some silver linings too.
The real doom in spaces like this is “democracy is over if we lose this election” and “I’m fleeing if we lose this election.”
Although I guess there’s some optimistic naiveté in that last sentiment.