Yesterday, the House Oversight Committee released the infamous Epstein “birthday book.” A statement accompanying the release, authored by the sleazy Kentucky Republican who chairs the committee, James Comer, is exactly the spin you’d expect if you’re aware that Comer is desperate to cover up the fact that wealthy perverts control the executive branch and, indeed, way too much of the fucking world:
“It’s appalling Democrats on the Oversight Committee are cherry-picking documents and politicizing information received from the Epstein Estate today. Oversight Committee Republicans are focused on running a thorough investigation to bring transparency and accountability for survivors of Epstein’s heinous crimes and the American people. President Trump is not accused of any wrongdoing…”
Oh, stuff your fake outrage up your ass, Jim, you flounder-faced flunky to a kid-diddling conman.
Perhaps naively, I interpret Comer’s huffy tone as a panic response. Maybe even that nitwit dimly perceives how damning an indictment this grotesque relic of a deceased pedophile is, not only to Donald Trump personally but to the wealthy elites who control giant chunks of American capital generally.
I don’t believe this is an overly broad indictment of our financial titans. We know private equity billionaire Leon Black paid Epstein $170M and financed his pedophile island operation. When interviewed by the DOJ #2, Trump’s former personal attorney Todd Blanche, Ghislaine Maxwell hinted that multiple members of Trump’s billionaire-heavy cabinet had ties to Epstein. Blanche quickly changed the subject.
Consider the scope of the rot in the context of reporting from yesterday’s NYT (gift link) that explores Epstein’s ties to JPMorgan, the world’s largest bank. Its highly influential CEO, Jamie Dimon, had an heir apparent during Epstein’s heyday, a man named Jes Staley.
Staley ignored and excused multiple red flags that indicated Epstein was trafficking teenagers. He also apparently fucked a couple of kids himself at Epstein’s island and then sent smirking emails about the experience to Epstein. The kid-diddling pervert Staley was CEO of JP Morgan’s investment bank and later served as CEO of Barclays, thanks in part to Epstein. As Staley wrote to his pedophile pal, “I owe you much.”
Or consider this birthday book submission from longtime Mar-a-lago member Joel Pashcow, managing member of the real estate and securities investment firm Nassau Capital LLC and past chairman of Atlantic Realty Trust and RPT Realty:
Pashcow’s other contribution to the book will probably get more attention because it involves Trump. It depicts an oversized check representing the “sale” by Epstein of a “fully depreciated [woman]” to Donald Trump. But it’s worth pausing for a moment to consider this rich degenerate’s cartoon that explicitly depicts grooming and child molestation.
That repulsive cartoon isn’t out of place in the birthday book. There are 200+ pages of similar leering depravity, and the convicted child sex trafficker who solicited the submissions and the wealthy elites who wrote and/or drew grotesque anecdotes celebrating Epstein’s degeneracy felt perfectly comfortable putting this out there for people in their circle to see and snicker over.
They all knew. And a system controlled by people like that can’t be reformed. It needs to be burned to the fucking ground and the earth salted behind us.
Open thread.
PS — What she said:
Baud
I agree. Release it all.
Hoodie
Wow, that kind of removes all doubt as to what those fuckers knew was going on with Epstein. Even if they weren’t personally involved, they knew what was going on and thought it was just a big joke.
jonas
I’m still chuckling at the trial balloon they floated the other day that Trump is in the Epstein files because he was actually an “FBI informant.”
“These aren’t very bright guys and things got out of hand…”
mappy!
No constitutional crisis here…
New Banksy mural of a judge beating a protester
prufrock
That cartoon.
Christ.
WaterGirl
Wow. Courageous. Strong. Powerful. We are going to have to learn the name of the woman in that video.
prostratedragon
A fair number of these people were instrumental in the mortgage meltdown of 2007–9.
And what had happened to make this such an uproarious “joke?”
Scout211
The White House
spokesmodelsspokespersons are going with deny, deny, deny.Fox News is going with:
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: She’s Rep. Melanie Stansbury (D-NM).
Chief Oshkosh
@Baud: Yep. C’mon, Comey – if you’re worried about people getting the wrong impression because of selective release, then just release ALL of the Epstein files, like your lord and master promised he would, redacting only the names of the victims.
And by the way, Comey, Trump is not the victim here.
AM in NC
100% Betty C.
In my violent fantasy world, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these predators should be lined up and have their genitals cut off. Publicly. By the women they abused as children.
At the very least they should in reality be stripped of fortune, liberty, and be shunned by human society.
We have a serious “predatory wealthy people” problem in America – the billionaire class (and wannabes) is composed of full-on predators and must be stopped in their tracks.
Kathleen
Turns out Lawrence O’Donnell’s show was the key to Oversight Dems getting the subpoena for the Birthday Book thanks to Bradley Edwards, lawyer for victims, who stated on LOD’s show he knew who had the book and that it should be easy to obtain. Ro Khanna thanked LOD on his show last night, and LOD replied it was the work of his staff, one of whom wanted Edwards to be a guest and that he himself had little to do with it. Below is the link to show on You Tube.
youtube.com/watch?v=pWkU4_q9s0Y&ab_channel=%C4%90%C3%A0i%C4%90%E1%BB%9DiS%E1%BB%91ng
jowriter
Right there with you, BC. No hell deep or hot enough for these perverts. I will call my useless congresscritter Lawler today and reiterate my request that he sign the discharge petition. It could be a big bonfire. I say bring it.
Frank Wilhoit
“…a system controlled by people like that can’t be reformed. It needs to be burned to the fucking ground and the earth salted behind us.”
Quite so: but the “people like that” control nothing, and the likes of Jeffrey Epstein or Donald Trump are actually the least of the reasons why the system needs to be burned. Third Law of Modern Politics: Nothing is top-down. Everything is bottom-up. “Leaders” follow. The fish rots from inside.
Teresa
I agree the Dems should release everything. To me, what the cherry picking does, it still means the victims and the horrible crimes committed against them are being used by politicians to advance their agenda. It’s still powerful people using them. That’s not justice.
Chief Oshkosh
As others have commented, it’s almost striking how many of the guilty were or are high up in the financial services industry.
It’s almost like they can’t be trusted. Maybe they need heavy regulation for everything in their lives.
Dorothy A. Winsor
So does excessive wealth and power make people terrible? Or are terrible people more likely to accumulate excessive wealth and power?
oldster
That postcard is about as clear and explicit a depiction of child-grooming as could be imagined.
They all knew. Trump knew.
They were all involved. Trump was involved.
Professor Bigfoot
“Burn it all down.”
“Blue states should secede.”
There’s violence inherent in either view.
I think violence is in our futures; and it’s not going to be pretty.
”This business will get out of control and we will be lucky to live through it.”
Suzanne
Release it all. Every bit of it. I care not even one iota if someone like Bill Clinton gets embarrassed.
I don’t have a goddamn parasocial relationship with any of these people and this is why.
Baud
@Teresa:
Dems don’t have everything. Most of it is still with DOJ.
And I’m not going to start accusing Dems of playing politics when they’re fighting a good fight. That’s a sure way to lose public support.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Thank you, Betty!
edited: Rep. Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)
Melanie Stansbury. New Mexico.
MazeDancer
it never ceases to amaze how men – I know, not all men – will do and risk everything for sex .
Maybe it’s because women have been disposable for so long, so they don’t think of it as risk. Just something they want. Like pizza. So they’ll order some.
Hope the Jamie Diamond story doesn’t get lost in the news deluge. He is known to keep a managerial close eye. He had to know about Epstein. Had to approve continuing the relationship when the discussion occurred.
Professor Bigfoot
@Suzanne: Amen.
”They not like us.”
I don’t for a moment believe Bill Clinton to be a pedophile or a rapist— a seducer of the first order, perhaps, but I just don’t think he’s attracted to young girls.
AND WITH THAT SAID, if my boy is in there, then SO BE IT. I’ve been disappointed in people before.
RELEASE EVERYTHING.
Professor Bigfoot
But— isn’t “fighting the good fight” also “playing politics?”
Perhaps along the lines of “one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter?” ;^)
prufrock
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I think it’s both. I think terrible people seek wealth and power, and I think wealth and power destroys those who attain it. Look at how many lottery winners destroy their lives after receiving their windfall.
Baud
@Professor Bigfoot:
Sure. But most people see “politics” as a bad thing. So words matter.
Dave
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I think it’s both.
Excessive wealth and the surrounding environment give you immense opportunity to be your worst self and to rationalize it; after all you are respected and respectable.
A lot of mutual jerking each off goes on in those circles if I’m going to be crude.
And while it’s probably always been the case to a greater or lesser degree the current system and ability to insulate yourselves from consequences and isolate yourself from social disapproval and a lot of pre-existing narratives along the line of “greed is good” does tend to equate to the people who are ruthlessly antisocial finding success.
It’s uh not a great combination.
Exacerbated by the incredible degree of wealth inequality that exists.
Belafon
@Scout211: That’s why I don’t think Clinton is on the “Epstein list.” If he were, Fox would scream his name and drown out discussions of Trump.
Betty Cracker
The dim bulb press secretary keeps digging:
Everyone: Yep, sure looks like his signature.
Leavitt: Obviously not his signature!
Narrator: Definitely his fucking signature!
Scout211
It’s curious to me that no Republican men have signed Massie’s discharge petition.
And when I say curious, I mean disgusting.
Two signatures are still needed.
Professor Bigfoot
Open thread, so— today begins my 69th trip around Old Sol.
Did you know that the most “popular” birthday is today? More people are born on September 9th than any other day of the year.
So we know what everyone was doing for New Year’s Eve…😉
Baud
@Professor Bigfoot:
Happy birthday!
different-church-lady
I just had the misfortune of seeing that illustration while swallowing a mouthful of coffee, and now I think I’m going to have a sick stomach all day…
Belafon
@Teresa: Democrats didn’t have the book and they don’t have most of the documents, the Trump admin does.
Scout211
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday Professor!
Suzanne
@Professor Bigfoot: Honestly, this is why I am deeply distrustful of the idea of loyalty to politicians at all. No matter who they are.
Loyalty to ideas and values, yes. Loyalty to electeds….. not something I’m comfortable with. There’s too many skeletons in closets.
ETA: And HBD to you!
different-church-lady
“They all knew.”
Nominated.
Belafon
@Baud:
And we won’t fix things until people start using “politics” correctly.
WaterGirl
@prufrock: I think it’s what Barack Obama said. Power doesn’t change a person. Power reveals who you are.
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: Fair point.
We must use language that the stupid can understand, because we need a majority… with apologies to Adlai Stevenson
piratedan
Good on Rep Stansbury for seizing that moment in front of the cameras and saying what needed to be said.
My unasked question choice from the Press to GOP Reps would be… if you elevate Trump to a King and he then demands that YOU send YOUR underage daughter to him because he’s Trump, are YOU going to look your daughter and your wife in the eyes and tell your daughter what clothes to wear?
Dave
@WaterGirl: Common theme of decent leaders throughout history.
Lincoln said something similar.
different-church-lady
@piratedan: GOP REPS: “Well yeah. Duh.”
different-church-lady
@prufrock:
I’M WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK!!!
M31
having access to the birthday book and NOT releasing it is also playing politics
p.a.
1) Glad Dems are: let the chips fall where they may, even our own.
2) Anyone see the apparently real vid of “we’ll clean the files of Rethug names” on major news shows?
Dave
@different-church-lady: Absolutely a proposition I am willing to entertain.
Professor Bigfoot
@Suzanne: I completely agree, but there are shades of “loyalty.”
Like, I’m always gonna give KDH and the Coach and Dark Brandon “the benefit of the doubt.” But THAT’S IT.
I have reason to trust their judgement, their ideals, their approaches to governance; but I don’t expect perfection from any of them… and if any of the ones that I do trust and respect show up on Pedo Island, well, tough shit, you’re DEAD to me.
Screwed around on your spouse? Okay, that’s a douche thing but we’re all human. Victimizing children? Yeah, we don’t give a damn.
Betty
@Dorothy A. Winsor: The simple answer is yes. Money and related power do seem to combine in many men to create a sense of entitlement. And many gained that money and power because they were ready to do whatever it took, no moral values stood in their way.
Teresa
@Baud:
I understand that.
Over the years, some Dems, the older ones, knew as well and approved of it, by their silence.
Soprano2
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy birthday! My 35th wedding anniversary was yesterday. We went to a local steakhouse to celebrate, and I’m still not hungry! That filet was fantastic…..
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Dave: Huh – I went looking for the quote (“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power”), and found a discussion on Snopes which seems to indicate that it wasn’t said by Lincoln, but about him.
Robert Ingersoll:
Dave
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: Well damnit.
At least it’s not made up whole cloth and was related to Lincoln.
different-church-lady
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
What a quaint, 19th century concept!
p.a.
@different-church-lady: He was possibly too merciful. We’ll never know what Reconstruction might have been under him.
Baud
@Belafon:
Each of us has to choose our priorities as to which deficiencies we’re going to try to fix.
Betty
@Scout211: On a positive, two Democratic seats will be filled in special elections so that will provide the necessary number.
prostratedragon
@Professor Bigfoot:
Many happy returns!🎂🥂
M31
the fake trump birthday cards that were going around back when it first came out (the wsf printed the text but not the drawing) were way less disgusting than the real one
the fake ones were kind of erotic/playboyish but the real one is so clearly an underage girl
whatever the words are for ‘eww + rage’ put them here
Baud
@Teresa:
I’m happy to follow any evidence about Dems. Until then, I’m going to focus on Trump and the Republicans and the wealthy Republicans they’re protecting.
Kathleen
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday, Youngster!!!
Professor Bigfoot
@p.a.: I’ve seen it; but I think that guy was just making an assumption of what his party would arrange— not that he had any specific, direct knowledge of just who and how such things would be made to happen.
I suspect everyone here basically assumed that’s precisely what they would do, also, too.
Scout211
@M31: Yeah, we discussed that in the comments yesterday.
Either Trump is ignorant of the adult female anatomy or . . .
Ewwwww! Disgusting!
Baud
Reddit
sab
@prufrock: A lot of lottery winners had serious gambling problems before they won the lottery. That’s how they won. They bought a lot of tickets.
different-church-lady
WHAT THE FUCK ELSE YOU THINK I’VE BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST ELEVEN MONTHS, ANUS FACE?!?!!
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Works about as well as praying after school shootings.
different-church-lady
@Scout211: Well, he is ignorant about nearly everything else…
Dave
@Scout211: Given the context and the people involved the benefit of the doubt was taken out back and buried a while back.
Mr. “I’ll be dating her in ten years and publicly creeps on his daughter” receives no grace from me.
WaterGirl
@Betty: There’s the special election today in Virginia.
Which is the second one?
Dave
@Professor Bigfoot: Oh I agree and bragging about it to seem “in the know”. I’ve seen that behavior so often.
Nonetheless may have done us all an unintentional favor by putting that narrative out in the wild.
Which since it involved James O’Keefe is just… well I hate this timeline.
prostratedragon
@WaterGirl:
The one for Grijalva’s former seat today?
Jackie
@Professor Bigfoot:
Don’t forget Monica Lewinsky was a 22 yr old aide… maybe she wasn’t as young as Epstein’s victims, but obviously Bill was attracted to young women.
Scout211
There you have it, folks. It’s a dead issue.
Hahahahahaha! Nice try pedo perv. I mean President pedo perv.
sab
@Jackie: She was an adult and a college graduate. She wasn’t a child.
Belafon
@prufrock: How many people destroy their lives after winning the lottery?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
That cartoon is some seriously weirdo stuff. It’s like these guys get all the money they could ever want and the only thing they can think of use that money to do something illegal.
Betty Cracker
@p.a.: I didn’t see the clip of the DOJ (I think) operative telling a (wired up, first) date they planned to redact Republican names on a major news show, but I did see it on Bluesky. Was surprised to learn the “sting” was orchestrated by James O’Keefe, the insufferable twit behind “Project Veritas.”
Then today I saw a clip of O’Keefe sympathetically interviewing Rep. Massie, the Trump-defying Republican who sponsored the discharge petition to release the Epstein files. Interesting that O’Keefe has apparently turned on Trump or is at least open to pushing narratives that put Trump in a bad light.
Does anyone know what’s going on there? I hope it indicates a more general abandonment of Trump (driven by outrage over the Epstein coverup) by right-wing influencers rather than a personal beef.
Dave
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Well isn’t that part of the appeal for this sort?
The illegality and their immunity to it is the thrill.
Every day I understand the appeal of the guillotine just a bit more.
Even if I’m still entirely to wary of a mobs id unleashed.
twbrandt
@Professor Bigfoot: happy birthday!
Dave
@Betty Cracker: I don’t understand them quite well enough to know if it’s purely because they know the grift has moved on or if they have actually pickled in the sludge they push long enough to become true believers in the ur-narrative to some degree.
Professor Bigfoot
@Jackie: There’s a world of difference between 22 and 16.
Not only did Monica consent (apparently quite enthusiastically) but she’s presumed to have the right to consent.
Young WOMEN, perhaps, but not little girls.
(And if it turns out that he WAS doin’ th’ Epstein, well, tough shit, Billy boy.)
JML
It’s notable that the GOP is trying to so hard to taint Democrats with being on “The Epstein List”. Because the response from Democrats has been pretty consistently: fry ’em all. We’ve been exiling and dumping politicians who have been caught doing criminal sh!t and getting caught in sex scandals. Bill Clinton is one of the last examples where we’ve defended and hand-waved it away (in part because it was like 30 years ago and we’ve evolved, and in part because the partisan witch-hunt was a real part of it, even if Bill’s actions were not ok).
Bill Clinton is “in the Epstein Files”? Response from dems has been: yeah, he never should have associated with that scumbag and it’s a black mark on his character. If there’s evidence that he was any kind of client, not just part of the glitterati society around this sleaze, people are going to be done with Bill forever, and no one is lining up to try and protect him.
They’re trying to pre-emptively “both sides” this, and I don’t think that’s going to stick, especially if the best they got is Bill Clinton caught some rides on Epstein’s plane a few times with 30 other people.
Jackie
@Betty Cracker:
FFOTUS’s favorite niece says:
“That’s definitely his signature,” she wrote on X. “Just saying.”
MagdaInBlack
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday !
It is my mothers bday too. She would be……110.
Dave
@JML: It’s been a common theme.
“Ah but what if this politician you like is on it”
“Well screw them for being bullshit then and let them face justice” has been the consistent response and you see it’s just not processing for those who think it’s some great gotcha.
narya
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy birthday!! So glad you’re a Jackal . . .
different-church-lady
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
trnc
Yup. I can almost guarantee that Clinton’s birthday wish for Epstein includes precisely 0% of anything lurid. Clinton was a womanizer, but I’ve heard no accusations of him being a pedophile.
TheflipPsyd
@Jackie: My sense of Clinton has been that he actually likes women (as persons) as well as being a horn dog. Epstein, Trump, etc. — they don’t like women. I’d say they pretty much hate women.
Now, if Clinton WAS involved, then he should suffer every consequence. Any individual, both democrats and republicans, male or female, should get the severest punishment and be shunned for the rest of their lives.
different-church-lady
@JML: If they’re offering a straight-up trade of Bill Clinton for Trump, I’ll take it in a heartbeat.
That’s not what they’re offering.
p.a.
@Jackie: I’ll contribute $$$ to a pool to buy off any WH reporter with access to these Leavitt pressers to have them stand up and say “You’re such a bald-faced liar you make Huckabee look honest.”
Shalimar
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I think the excessive wealth and power allows them to do the terrible things that all of the horrible fucked-up people who don’t have money and power only fantasize about.
Jackie
@Betty:
Assuming FFOTUS doesn’t twist Mace, or MTG, or Boebert’s arms right off their bodies with threats… I sure wouldn’t bet against that. FFOTUS is already going full out with primarying Massey. We need five more signatures for insurance.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
sure, but spending a lot of money on getting hand jobs from girls who barely know what they are doing. Beyond “look I am breaking the law!’ there really isn’t much more there.
Jackie
@sab: I didn’t call her a child. I said she was young.
Professor Bigfoot
That’s mine as well. Most of these guys really just don’t like women, but of course they like sex.
I could be wrong, of course; but I can’t see Bill as a rapist, either. A “seducer of the first order,” that “charming, silver-tongued devil” for whom charming his way into women’s panties was (squinting and looking hard) an extension of his actually liking women as people, not just sex objects.
And, to reiterate— if Bill was an Epstein client, then he gets to roast too.
Lt. Raines said, “it’s okay- I’ve been chewed out before.”
I’ve been disappointed in people before. Let justice be done.
WaterGirl
@prostratedragon: Ah.
A special election will be held on September 23, 2025, to fill Arizona’s 7th congressional district for the remainder of the 119th United States Congress.
The Virginia special election is today.
WaterGirl
@Jackie: Sorry, I call bullshit on the suggestion that because someone likes younger women (22 years old) that they might like to have sex with truly young girls.
I think that’s unfair.
Professor Bigfoot
@Jackie: I begin to suspect that maybe Pastor Johnson CAN actually count votes… and it’s a fair assumption that Trump and his minions are going full scorched earth on those three women just because “how dare you defy me?,” right?’
Shalimar
@Betty Cracker: I do not follow O’Keefe from month to month, but I assume he is still bitter that he was cut off from most of his funding sources after being ejected from Project Veritas 2 1/2 years ago. It is possible this is part of a personal grudge against one of Epstein’s patrons who used to pay O’Keefe.
Belafon
@Professor Bigfoot: There was an episode of Family Guy where Peter catches Lois in bed with Bill. Peter’s angry and most of the episode is him and Lois trying to reconcile, but at the end Peter is in bed with Bill and Peter just admits that he’s hard to resist.
brendancalling
I’m at my first day of the new job, looking at this article on my lunchbreak and wishing I hadn’t.
Everyone involved in this should be in jail for the rest of their lives. TBH, despite my long-held objection to capital punishment, I would make a HUGE exception for Epstein and Co.
jonas
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Like Michelle Obama once said about the power of the presidency, acquiring great wealth doesn’t “turn” you into this or that, it reveals who you really are. Horrible rich people were once (mostly) horrible regular people, but without the wealth to shield them from the consequences of their actions.
Shalimar
@WaterGirl: Bill Clinton was 50 at the time. He accepted Lewinsky’s attention because she was young and hot and he didn’t see a cost. You don’t think it is possible he would do the same thing with a 16-year-old if Epstein told them to be available to him? The only difference is the 16-year-old is theoretically a crime, but not a single one of them has paid for that to this day.
Gloria DryGarden
@Dorothy A. Winsor: the methods used to outcompete competitors, and underpay your workforce, while paying multimillion dollar bonuses to the ceo class, seems to require a certain ruthlessness and set of values.
money and profit, over humans and safety and community. Oppressive tactics tat we only have tiny clues about. We get small glimpses of it in history and recent events. It’s a really different pov; it’s hard to grasp such a greed for money and power at that level.
brendancalling
@Scout211: Good. If Bill’s involved in this, I want to know. Anyone involved in this should be in prison forever.
Jackie
@WaterGirl: Not ALL of Epstein’s victims were children. A few of the survivors who testified at the news conference were over 18 and into their early 20’s. But, I’m not saying Clinton compares to Epstein. He did avail on trips on Epstein’s plane. I do think he knows more than he’s sharing publicly. Knowing is complicit. But, none the less, anyone with knowledge of what was going on and looked the other way is just as bad in their own way.
It ALL needs to come out – and let the chips fall where they may.
Betty Cracker
@Professor Bigfoot: I don’t believe Bill Clinton is a rapist either, but it was grossly inappropriate for the POTUS to fuck a 22-year-old intern, no matter how willing. And no matter how hard I squint and squoonch up my face, I can’t see his horn-dog antics as indicative of his “liking women as people, not just sex objects.”
My read of the old reprobate is that he was/is a deeply insecure man who used his “conquests” to boost his ego. It doesn’t make him a monster, just kinda pathetic, IMO. But that’s Hillary’s problem, not mine.
Belafon
@Shalimar:
Do I think it’s impossible? No. Do you think that any man who likes women younger than them cannot separate legal consent and too young? We keep seeing Hollywood men marrying women way younger than them. Do you think they’re all just one photo away from a crime?
Old Man Shadow
Of course they did. And they participated.
They made a simple calculation that the price of doing so was cheap and that they were too powerful to be exposed and held responsible.
They do it all the time in their businesses. They inflict misery after misery on the poor, the powerless, and the downtrodden and they are rewarded for it. If one of those victims fights back, the powerful have the legal system on their side.
And they will probably get away with it this time too.
JML
@WaterGirl: Yeah, there’s been some ret-conning going on over the years that muddles the fact that while Monica Lewinsky may have been immature, she was not underage. It doesn’t make anything Bill did ok (cheating on your spouse, lying about it, and using your power and the power of your office to seduce someone that technically works for you…none of it ok) but it’s also not criminal. Monica was capable of consent, and legally able to consent as well. That’s very different than the Epstein modus operendi.
Notably, the GOP doesn’t care about any of the Current Occupant’s sexual depredations, even when he’s bragged about sexual assaults, peepshow invasions of privacy, constant cheating, incest fantasies, secret abortions, and more. They were never expecting when their base gave the Current Occupant a pass on all of that that Epstein would stick to him.
Gin & Tonic
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday, Prof!
Jackie
@JML: Well said.
scav
@Shalimar: By similar logic, if one is willing to take aspirin, well then, clearly one is nearly an opium fiend. If you ease your foot off the brake, you’re clearly open to re-enacting the Monaco Grand Prix outside the Kindergarten. Ah, the wide-open unfettered slip-slip-slippery joys of mere possibility.
Sure Lurkalot
@Professor Bigfoot:
Bolding mine.
Clinton was not a boy when he “had relations” with both Jeffrey Epstein and Monica Lewinsky, rather, he was a man with full agency and responsibility.
“Boys will be boys” (wink wink) has excused and dressed up unconscionable actions and heinous crimes inflicted upon girls and women forever. It assumes an innocence that belies predatory behavior.
Please don’t refer to a grown man as a boy.
prostratedragon
When you’ve been told you’re good for only one thing: “There’s Got to Be Something Better Than This,” Sweet Charity; C. Rivera, P. Kelly, S MacLean
schrodingers_cat
We are battling a hostile fascist takeover. Bill Clinton has not been in power for over 25 years. There is little need to focus on every distraction the Rs throw our way
prostratedragon
Emptywheel:
schrodingers_cat
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday! Give them hell!
p.a.
@Betty Cracker: Not defending Bill, just the intern thing is a Rethug frame I believe. They met when she was an intern. Nothing physical until she was an actual employee. This is how I heard Dems describe events.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: He probably did not draw the outline, but that’s sure his signature!
debit
@Shalimar: why are we making this about Clinton and insinuating that he’s just as guilty as trump when there’s nothing, thus far, to indicate this? Haven’t we all said he should burn along with the rest if he was found to be guilty? What’s the deal?
Paul in KY
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday, sir!!!
JML
@Shalimar: it is different though. 22 and 16 are effing different, and even Bill Clinton and his poor impulse control knows it.
I’m sure even the echoes of horndog Bill appreciated having pretty women around when he entered into the Epstein circle, but Bill also just appreciated having people around him at all times. Betty Cracker is right: Bill has always been insecure. The stories about him calling people up to keep him company while he did things like watch a football game are well-known. Dude simply couldn’t stand to be alone (wonder if he’s gotten over it yet? seems unlikely at this point, but he’s had some major health scares and that can often change behaviors)
Regardless: if Bill actually did anything through Epstein (so far, never seen any evidence, and you know these corrupt effs would have leaked by now if they had anything good), then fry him.
Paul in KY
@different-church-lady: He was like Henry V, only much better. No crazy religiousness and with a great sense of humour.
Paul in KY
@M31: The ‘breasts’ are quite small…
debit
Meh, I fell for it. Now we’re all talking Clinton instead of the rapist in the White House.
schrodingers_cat
@debit: Because some people are more addicted to their self righteousness than working for the common good. Also common sense is uncommon.
sab
@Jackie: Then you are missing a fundamental distinction
ETA At twenrty-two you have the right to make decisions, bad or good. Her problem was that she was an idiot and incredibly indiscreet. Other twenty-two year olds are involved with older men, get some mentoring, and then move on to men their own age. Kamala Harris did that with Willie Brown.
Albatrossity
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday, and may you have many more trips around the sun!
I just celebrated my 75th a week ago today. So you also know what my parents were doing for Christmas!
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: I think it heralds a ‘rats jumping off the sinking ship’ kind of moment. More money crapping on him than supporting him.
p.a.
OT Israel bombs Doha buildings in attack on Hamas leadership. (Not jets I believe; planted bombs.)
Regional US military officials say they were not made aware of Israeli strike
By Hamdah Salhut
Reporting from Amman, Jordan
Al Jazeera is reporting from Amman because it has been banned from Israel and the occupied West Bank.
American military sources within the region just told me that they were not aware of this attack, and that they were only notified after.
And, they said, they cannot speak to whether or not the White House was informed.
debit
@schrodingers_cat: agreement on both points.
Barbara
@Professor Bigfoot: I am pretty sure it has already been documented that Bill Clinton accepted flights from Epstein. There are rumors that Melinda Gates left Bill Gates because he wouldn’t stop palling around with Jeff Epstein.
Part of Epstein’s MO was to gain credibility by donating to the kinds of causes that got attention from important people. Anyone who was paying attention knew that there were lots of unnamed people who would have been shamed and perhaps more if Epstein’s diary and flight log came to light. A prominent professor at MIT ended up resigning because he had worked so hard to cultivate Epstein as a donor.
Slate Magazine had a big article about this at the time of the arrest that led Epstein to commit suicide and the disclosures that definitively exposed Prince Andrew as a complete and utter piece of shit. The prominent belief at the time about Epstein’s suicide was that Epstein realized that he had become too high profile to call in any favors. But it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if something more nefarious happened. I just would have expected more people to have circulated rumors if it had.
Paul in KY
@p.a.: You can tell she really just loves lying her ass off. She (to me) does have that face that there is a specific German word for.
Matt McIrvin
@JML:
The way it could work is if they really could get away with scrubbing all the Republicans from the files with nobody noticing. But, come on, we see that coming, the idea is in the news.
At this point in history I do not give a fraction of a shit about Bill Clinton and I think we can handle however it goes for him. Don’t see a point in negotiating the fine points of it.
TheflipPsyd
@schrodingers_cat: I agree. I also believe that if Bill Clinton is found to be involved in some significant way, the media will focus on his involvement for the ultimate “both sides.” And the media narrative when they can do both sides is “yeah, both sides, but the Democrat is worse because they say they stand for the oppressed, etc. Until the Clintons die and fade from the national memory, the media powers that be will focus on them rather than republican wrongdoing. And yes, the media will focus on any democratic figure more than a republican, but no current democratic figure brings to the table what Clinton does. Obama’s presidency was squeaky clean and the worst that was said about Biden is he’s old.
Since that seems to be the axiom in media focus, I don’t believe that Clinton was involved beyond taking some flights and rubbing shoulders with the glitterati. If Clinton were significantly involved, his involvement would have been leaked years ago and the focus would have been on Clinton and Epstein.
Professor — I’ve never been a big fan of the Clintons although I voted for both of them. But whenever I saw Bill Clinton interact with people, he seemed to have a genuine “like” for people as opposed to treating people as things to be used or to reflect back his greatness. I don’t excuse his behavior, but I do believe it is of a different caliber than the rest.
Scout211
My sincerest apologies to every single jackal. Posting a comment meant to mock Fox News’s distraction and avoidance of Trump’s Epstein issues has turned the comment section into re-litigating the Clinton/Lewinsky history.
Can we get back to Trump, who is our current president?
But again, I am deeply and sincerely sorry.
TheflipPsyd
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday! Hope you enjoy it
Jackie
It’s not Fake News or a Hoax anymore. It’s a Dead Issue, per the King President:
Well, that settles it! LOL
Paul in KY
@schrodingers_cat: Good point!
Matt McIrvin
@Barbara: Yeah, a lot of the rumors I’ve heard have revolved around science, tech and public-intellectual types. Epstein seemed to really like to associate with them.
I don’t get the sense that he was that keen on cultivating relationships with a lot of political figures. Yeah, there’s Bill Clinton. But it’s not like we’re going to see some Who’s Who of modern liberal politics.
Barbara
@Barbara: Here is the Salon article that really hit me:
slate.com/technology/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-science-eugenics-sexual-abuse-researchers.html
It ends with this stomach churning quote:
Betty Cracker
@Paul in KY: I hope that’s the case. I don’t really understand influencer culture or the wingnut media complex, but apparently it can swing elections, so if trashing Trump generates more revenue, that’s a good thing.
Professor Bigfoot
@Sure Lurkalot: “My boy” is Black slang for someone that we feel some affection for.
As a Black man who comes from Black men who were called “boy” no matter their age or station, you’re completely wrong about this.
NotMax
@Professor Bigfoot
Have a happy!
Professor Bigfoot
@debit: Crap. Me too.
Anyway
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy birthday, prof! Enjoy the day/year and keep taking care of that ticker ..
Gin & Tonic
@Barbara: And Hitler was great with dogs.
Professor Bigfoot
And with that, I’m going to go burn some hydrocarbons and then throw some lead downrange for my birthday.
A huge THANK YOU for ALL the birthday well-wishes!
Joy of the day to all of you, and I’m sure I’ll be back two or three threads from now. 😉
tam1MI
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday and many more!
Barbara
@Gin & Tonic: It’s more insidious and not quite analogous. The people Epstein cultivated had the capacity and willingness to look the other way and even defend him, whether out of complicity or because they needed his money. He knew that. There are stories of people being invited to dinner parties at which Epstein was a guest who walked out because they did not want to be associated with him and would not have accepted if they had known he had also been invited. Those people show that it was in fact possible to recognize how debased Epstein was and choose to avoid being associated with him. Most of the people identified in the Slate article continued associating with Epstein even after his original felony conviction.
A Good Woman
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday 🍷🎉🎂
moonbat
Typical Democrat circular firing squad behavior. Epstein list issue has the potential to take down the current president who wants to be a fascist dictator and here were are relitigating the Lewinsky Affair. If Bill Clinton were on the Epstein client list the Repubs in power would be blaring it from the rooftops. I take it as evidence he isn’t by the fact they are not doing that.
And what if he was? There are plenty more folks on that list who aren’t Bill Clinton and their names need to be released. Release The Names. If we keep that drumbeat going they can’t ‘both sides’ this.
Rick Taylor
So MAGA was right about there being a cabal of sexual predators in positions of power?!? They were just wrong about who was in the cabal?
Suzanne
@Dave:
OH NOEZ I MIGHT HAVE TO GIVE UP MY BILL CLINTON HATS!
Gin & Tonic
@Rick Taylor: I believe (many) men in positions of power have been sexual predators since time immemorial.
Mr. Bemused Senior
Aha!
moonbat
@Rick Taylor: Always blame the enemy of what you are guilty of. Been in the GOP playbook since Gingrich.
Baud
I say release all the Epstein files even if Elizabeth Warren is implicated!
WereBear
But you are, Comer! You are in that chair!*
famous movie quote from what movie?
Is there a Youtube clip?
From 1-10, how much of a Bette Davis fan are you?
Yes, I gave people a clue. Not everyone is the same kind of film fan :)
Betty Cracker
@Barbara: Wow, a whole new level of grotesque behavior described in that article. And Schank? A bad guy. I hope he falls into the nearest open manhole.
JML
@moonbat: every accusation is a confession with the GOP. has been for a while, much more overt with the current cadre of vile scum.
Betty Cracker
@WereBear: A classic!
Shalimar
I disagree with this. They are different in emotional and intellectual development. But people mature at different rates. If I gave you 50 22-year-olds and 50 16-year-olds and told you to sort them, you would put some of them in the wrong categories. I have personally seen college students not care about age once they found out the girl they were already attracted to was illegally young. I hope Bill Clinton would care, but I wouldn’t bet money on it.
Baud
@Shalimar:
I would not be ok with a 16 yo hooking up with a 22 yo. YMMV.
Matt McIrvin
@moonbat: I suspect most of the names are people we’ve known about for years. What disappointed me about it was the presence of so many scientists and popular-science type guys I admired in my youth, including several I’ve heard speak.
debit
@Shalimar: so, you’re just going to keep stroking your Clinton hate boner. Got it.
Shalimar
@Baud: I wasn’t ok with 20 and 16 at the time. 22 and 16 is worse.
bluefoot
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday!! I hope you have a great one!
Barbara
@Betty Cracker: I was blown away when I read it. But remember, this article was written six years ago. So much of this has been known or suspected for a long time.
Other articles (sorry for the paywall):
nytimes.com/2020/10/12/business/leon-black-jeffrey-epstein.html?searchResultPosition=6
nytimes.com/2021/08/09/nyregion/virginia-giuffre-prince-andrew.html?searchResultPosition=1
And I guess the kicker for me, as I have told my husband, is that Trump and his minions are the ones who have resurrected the Epstein scandal. Surely Trump understood that his name would appear on the list of well-known people who palled around with Epstein? WTF?
moonbat
A 22 year old is capable of making their own decisions. No guarantee as to whether they will be good or bad decisions, but they are perfectly capable of making them as human beings. Are are we going to start infantilizing women until they are what – 30?
The patriarchy sucks. We get that. But don’t deny agency to young women because the patriarchy sucks.
Shalimar
@debit: I don’t think Bill Clinton matters anymore, but I wasn’t the one who brought him up. I do think he was a sex addict and we know less than 10% of his history. I do hope Lewinsky was the closest he ever got to really skeevy behavior.
I also think the idea that talking about Clinton at all distracts from the massively worse mountain of evidence against Trump is ridiculous.
M31
@Professor Bigfoot:
when I was a naive teen I had some Southern whiteguy friends who loved to call everyone ‘boy’ and then I called a black friend ‘boy’ and he said ‘don’t call me that’ in this tone of voice that had a LOT behind it
Naive me didn’t know exactly what was going on (and he didn’t say anything else, nor did he need to), but it was clear there was a line there
of course I never called him (or anyone else) ‘boy’ again
a cheap learning experience that I always remembered
moonbat
@Matt McIrvin: Let the chips fall where they may, as far as I’m concerned. As Prof. Bigfoot said, we’ve been disappointed in people before. And I think part of the way that Epstein’s scheme operates is getting enough well thought of figures involved that the whole enterprise gets a cadre of ‘respectable’ people covering for it.
P.S. Happy B-Day, Prof. Bigfoot!
Belafon
@Jackie: As was said somewhere else, we’re moving into the “So what if he did it stage.” Next will be the “Those girls should be thankful for the privilege” stage.
They Call Me Noni
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday!
dexwood
@Betty Cracker: Way late to the thread. Just want to say, Melanie Stansbury is the real deal, but I’m biased – she’s our representative and the daughter of an old friend. A good artist in her teen years, too.
Hoodie
@Shalimar: My guess is that Clinton probably shied away from the underage stuff because he grew up a poor kid and didn’t have that sense of entitlement. There’s no doubt he’s sleazy, but Lewinsky was an adult and pretty much admitted she sought out the relationship on her own. That said, if he hung out with Epstein knowing what the dude was doing, then especially fuck him because he was the president at one time and should feel some sort of duty to call that shit out. That whole crowd seems to be a bunch of rich pricks who want to think they’re an aristocracy. It’s all about showing power to one another, which often means doing bad shit to show your power to get away with it. Trump is an exemplar for that. Unaccountability is the holy grail, since immortality isn’t (yet) possible.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: Why does that surprise you? Men are creeps. That is my assumption unless proven otherwise. Especially men in fields that usually don’t attract many women.
Jackie
OT Meanwhile, while FFOTUS is trying to make his participation in the Epstein files a Dead Issue… President Obama won his third Emmy last night 😊
newsweek.com/barack-obama-emmy-grammys-nobel-peace-prize-2126207
schrodingers_cat
@moonbat: Agreed. Remember the Tara Reade scandal that Berners tried but failed to make a thing against Biden?
Chief Oshkosh
@Belafon: And if frogs had wings, they wouldn’t bump their butts every time they jumped.
Juju
Happy Birthday Professor Bigfoot. My sister also has a birthday today. She is exactly one year older than you. Enjoy your day and thank you for reminding me of her birthday.
AxelFoley
@sab:
Thank you. She was a grown ass woman. I hate when folks try to infantilize her. She was an adult and a willing participant. I’m less than a year older than her and I knew fucking with a married person was wrong. Hell, I was married myself at the time.
WereBear
@jonas:
US theme song of 2025.
Westyny
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday!
WereBear
@Shalimar: My “houn’ dog” radar is strong.
catfishncod
@Professor Bigfoot: This. I still remember how strictly I was taught to never EVER use “boy” or “girl” around anyone bigger than mid-teens, even before I was old enough to understand why.
WereBear
@Kathleen: Always been a fan. He used to act, too.
Ruckus
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
The answer is YES.
WaterGirl
@Barbara:
That quote! Un-fucking-believable.
Put the 14-year-olds out of the picture?????
AxelFoley
@Professor Bigfoot:
Happy Birthday, Prof!
Mine’s in May. I would say my parents were celebrating a new school year, but they were out of high school then.
Sister Golden Bear
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday!
KSinMA
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy birthday!
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: I sure don’t understand this ‘influencer’ crap!
WaterGirl
@Professor Bigfoot: What you just described is exactly how I take it when you say he is your boy.
I refer to Obama as my guy, and it’s the same thing. Love, affection, respect.
matt
@Shalimar: Clinton has a law degree, he knows the law.
Paul in KY
@Gin & Tonic: Edward IV was notorious for not taking ‘no’ for an answer. Granted, not many said ‘no’ from what I’ve read, but he was a rake & cad at the very least.
Henry VIII was actually much more courtly and respectable and solicitous around women than his grandfather.
Hoodie
@WaterGirl: Hitler was great at parties, setting aside the whole Holocaust thing. I’d like to be able to say that a scientist couldn’t be this fucking stupid, but as an attorney I’ve worked with a lot of them and this type of cluelessness about shit that is obvious to others is not uncommon. It’s probably for the same reason that attorneys generally make shitty scientists, historians, etc., i.e., competence in one area is not determinative of competence in other areas.
WereBear
@Dorothy A. Winsor: According to the latest science, a synergy of both.
WereBear
Let
it
drip.
MAGA is not a fast learner.
Ruckus
This is humanity.
Not all humanity for absolutely sure, likely not even close. But it is a segment of humanity and always has been. Especially if that bit of humanity has MONEY. Not money, but MONEY.
Humans have a way of believing that they are special and as one of the things that it actually takes to live reasonably in a modern society is money. Not MONEY but it does take some. And often people with A LOT OF MONEY feel like they can buy whatever they want. WHATEVER THEY WANT. Be it property, expensive whatever, humans, lawyers. Humanity has been this way for a very, very long time. The difference is that now it is a lot more difficult to hide it for very long. It gets seen, sooner or later. It gets seen and heard. And of course those with MONEY can defend/hide/control a lot. But the bigger the pile of crap gets the harder it is to not be seen. And dealt with. And it takes some level of money to do this and make money from it to be able to keep hiding the entire mess. Do we innocently believe this is the only group doing, having done this? I don’t. It’s humanity, in all it’s sides, rationality or lack thereof. Do I think it’s wide spread? Not likely but the only ones? I’m not holding my breath.
Peke Daddy
@oldster: If the Founders came back and see how we couldn’t keep the Republic, they would take a flamethrower to this place.
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
THIS.
Suburban Mom
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday! I have a child who was born on 9/9, but I didn’t know that fun fact about it being the most popular day.
Bill Arnold
@Scout211:
There are 4 house elections this fall, on different dates. Democrats will probably pick up one or more representatives.
Paul in KY
@M31: You were pretty naive, my friend…
Sister Golden Bear
WSJ dropped its paywall for an article showing more pages from the Epstein book.
Though oddly it leaves out the Pashcow contributions, perhaps because they were already reported.
Nathan Myhrvold, who seemed to be one of the (relatively) “good billionaires contributed a seven page letter and photos of a pair of zebras, and pair of lions, fucking, supposedly from a recent trip to Africa, writing “They seemed more appropriate than anything I could put in words.” A former Harvard Dean included to two “tits prints” writing “For the man who has almost everything—but never enough of these!” Another retail billionaire’s contribution included a short message and a line drawing of a woman’s breasts.
They knew.
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: Let’s put that impaling of prisoners out of the way…and ole Vlad was an alright guy.
WereBear
@Professor Bigfoot: I don’t think Blue States have to secede, frankly. We hold the nation’s purse.
I borrowed the writer’s book from my subscription, from a substack where he called the Red States “our third world” and that’s about the size of it.
p.a.
@Ruckus: An old idea that has been rattling around since… the Gilded Age? is that since America had no aristocracy, our rich are our royals, with all the potential for debauchery that implies, and with more deference than would otherwise be shown by us plebes to the Big Money Boyz.
WereBear
@Belafon: Mmmm. Excellent deduction.
p.a.
@WereBear: I like redsters fbook comments re: secession when they’re “yeah go, who gonna feed you?” and the responses of “we have the money and the ports, we can buy food anywhere.” I like to add comments about the crap food US agribusiness produces as well.
WereBear
“The lid’s off the garbage can, and I did it!”*
Belafon
@matt: See ministers on how understanding their field doesn’t keep them from doing naughty stuff.
I also like to think of Clinton as the first president who wasn’t allowed to get away with an affair, in the sense that it was never spoken about in public politically.
WereBear
@Matt McIrvin: And the “I thought you were cool” cartoonists!
Bad enough the inventor of Fist of Death turned rabid MAGA and then Matt Groening and his feet…
Belafon
@p.a.: Since I’m in Texas, I will post things like “Are you ready for your food costs to triple?” to those here that think California should be given to Russia.
p.a.
@Belafon: Grover Cleveland had an illegitimate daughter. Republicans mocked him with the slogan “Ma, ma, where’s pa?”
Dems responded “Gone to the White House ha ha ha.”
smithsonianmag.com/history/president-clevelands-problem-child-100800/
WereBear
@Shalimar:The age difference between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky was 27 years.
That’s like an eighty-year-old and a middle-aged person.
I had a ten year age gap work in my first marriage (widowed) but now in my second with only 2 years. We had the same media upbringing :) and our references are like ESP between us.
Imagine almost three decades. It really does make a difference… in the case of intentions.
Tony Jay
Sitting here just trying to visualise the news coverage of a Democratic President and his staff after they falsely claimed, openly and repeatedly, that it was not his signature on a creepy birthday card sent to a child rapist and sex-slave trafficker.
Just take a second to remember how the world used to be, before the people reporting on it decided those rules couldn’t be allowed to apply any more. That card, that signature, the testimony of the survivors and the burying of the files themselves would be ALL of the News showing EVERYWHERE. A minute wouldn’t go by without somebody on the TV or in print DEMANDING answers because “the People have a right to know if their President, in addition to being a convicted sex-offender, is also a decades long pedophile.”
The fact that they’re still playing the “It’s only reportable truth if the President admits it, but it would be rude to ask” game tells you clear as day. They know. They knew. And they’re hoping like hell their Big, Bad Orange Ball of Hot Newz makes it all go away so they don’t have to cover it up for him.
Aziz, light!
@Hoodie: Not many people know it, but the Fuhrer was a terrific dancer.
WTFGhost
This, friends, is why “Obstruction of Justice” is such a serious criminal act. If you know of a criminal act being performed, you, as a citizen, have a responsibility to try to put things to right. Each person who knew Epstein diddled young girls had a responsibility to make a report to the FBI.
Note that Trump is reported to have dropped the dime on Epstein, because Epstein threatened to drop a dime on Trump, for money laundering. Trump bought a property Epstein wanted for himself; Trump used it to score a big (tens of millions) payday for money laundering – a Russian oligarch got the property, Trump got a wad of cash, that he knew was the proceeds of criminal activity. He, too, was obstructing justice, but, you don’t drop a dime on Russian oligarchs, unless you want to fall out of a high window, occasionally striking several truncheons that beat you about the head, neck, and back, and, sometimes, land on some bullets.
So, yeah, Trump may have turned rat, but only because he knew the FBI would ignore Epstein’s counter-accusation. The FBI doesn’t care about stuff like money-laundering… that’s just terrorism and shit. But a sex criminal, that’s big news!
p.a.
@WereBear:
@Tony Jay:
Lyin’ Leavitt is 32 yrs younger than her
dadhusband.satby
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday!
My ex’s bday is tomorrow, my sister’s on the 17th, and my late sister’s was on the 24th. Busy birthday month, and we teased our parents about New Year’s a lot. My father once said my sister Mickey was such a happy, goofy kid because she was 2/3rds bourbon.
WereBear
@moonbat: Just for perspective, I used to think so, but now we know the frontal lobes don’t “set” until 25. And predators knew this before we did.
Shalimar
Will put this here instead of Watergirl’s thread because this one is already sidetracked. I realize Bill Clinton barely has a cameo in the Epstein movie no matter what he did. I don’t think he was an Epstein client (though again I would not confidently bet money on any of this) because DoJ would have found evidence and the entire scandal would have been shifted to Clinton.
That said, if you had a Family Feud question that was “Name a man who thinks with his dick”, Bill Clinton would be America’s #1 answer. He was on the plane. Don’t ever put up a front-page thread about him. That’s fine. All the focus should be on Trump and the other important people who were obvious clients. But you can’t have open thread after open thread and never expect anyone to want to talk about Bill Clinton.
WereBear
@Professor Bigfoot: Happy Birthday! Stay warm :)
satby
Oh, not wealthy people do all the terrible things too, just on a scale that only affects the children in their circle of family and neighbors. Every single day.
Omnes Omnibus
What the fuck, people?! If Clinton did bad shit with the Epstein crowd, he can burn with the rest of them. Until then, he had what appears to be a bunch of consensual sexual affairs a number of women. Probably not the best thing in the world, but the fuck are we fighting about it now? He isn’t where the Democratic Party is now, but he is the one who broke Republican control of the presidency. Can we fight about Biggie and Tupac next, as long as we are pointlessly redoing the ‘90s?
Geminid
@p.a.: For what it’s worth, Israeli officials said the strike in Doha was carried out by aircraft (presumably with missiles). Reports as to the targetted Hamas leaders vary from, they were all killed to, they all survived. There will plenty more reporting in coming hours.
AxelFoley
@Shalimar: Clinton hasn’t been in office for a quarter century. The country is being destroyed by a racist, sexist pedophile, but you want to keep talking about Clinton.
divF
@Professor Bigfoot: Hippo Birdie two Ewes!
(We all need a little Sandra Boynton.)
Emily B.
Wondering if I can get postcards of the Trump doodle for Epstein’s birthday book. (One seller on Etsy already has T-shirts, but I wouldn’t want that touching my body….) I’d like to mail the doodle to everyone in my town displaying a Trump sign in their yard, with a short handwritten note.
Karen Gail
I don’t remember the first time I heard; “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed.”
Older men and young women/girls isn’t anything new; just that it is about high profile men going after the young gets the attention from the press. Even more so when the actions of rich men are being hidden.
All the talk about Clinton being a horn dog while ignoring that JFK was known for the same thing expect the press was pressured to ignore what was called “the revolving back door to White House.”
WereBear
Actually, it’s part of the drive to individuate and so, innate.
gene108
@Professor Bigfoot:
Epstein wormed his way into high society by donating to charities rich guys were working with, for example.
He did accompany former president Clinton to Africa on work for the Clinton Foundation. I believe Epstein flew Bill there on his private jet.
If Bill’s in deeper than this, he gets ostracized. No one’s losing sleep defending anyone on our side, if they’re involved.
WereBear
Actually, it’s part of the drive to individuate and so, innate.
satby
@Omnes Omnibus: Right? No wonder shit is fucked up, people can’t maintain focus on essentials at all.
Bill Arnold
@p.a.:
The half-ones-age-plus-seven creepiness threshold popularized by XKCD works reasonably well.
That means 14 year olds can date (14/2 + 7), etc.
So, for example, Karoline Leavitt, 27, married Nicholas Riccio, 59,
59/2 + 7 == 36.5.
36.5 > 2
Allegations against Trump: creepier, much much creepier.
WereBear
@Paul in KY: You could call him an upright guy.
WereBear
Since 2019, I’ve been following studies showing that the manufactured food with the lab ingredients seems to be the single, biggest, problem. New study out of Copenhagen just the other day.
In response, Mr WereBear and I got rid of everything that had an ingredient you can’t buy at the grocery. It does let out so much of the grocery, but it has done wonders for our tastebuds.
Now, that stuff tastes like dirt. Unless I find such a gluten free item in the health food store, I have to do my own baking.
JoyceH
Something I’d noticed before. An attitude from the past that still exists to a lesser extent today. You say a guy sexually abused a minor and everyone knows that’s really really bad. But in the past and to a certain extent today, say “paid a teenage prostitute” and that bumps it up to a still illegal and morally reprehensible and yet somehow more forgivable category. That’s the loophole that got Matt Gaetz out of criminal charges, I think. It’s the way Acosta seemed to frame the original awful Epstein charges – pled guilty to consorting with teenage prostitute. The fact that he recruited and groomed those “prostitutes” got sorta lost. But so long as the attitude persists that “teenage prostitute” is a lesser crime, there’s a problem.
And honestly the more we learn about the Epstein case the worse it looks both for Epstein and everyone involved. I’d been under the impression that Epstein had an inner circle, the famous Client List, and an outer circle of the rich and famous that he cultivated and who fell into the outer circle because he was so well connected and knew everybody making him a useful guy to know. But the amount of knowledge of criminality seems a lot more pervasive among the outer circle than I’d realized. One of Epstein’s girls got taken by him to Mar a Lago when she was FOURTEEN. It’s pretty common when guys get caught with underage girls to claim she said she was eighteen. You could maybe get away with it if she were a high school senior – but not a freshman! No one who was at Mar a Lago that day (and certainly not Trump who was introduced to the girl) can reasonably claim to have believed that Epstein’s “date” was legal!
WereBear
@Emily B.: That idea is so gooooood.
Betty Cracker
@Shalimar: FWIW, I don’t think talk about Bill Clinton should be taboo in this thread since it’s about the Epstein book, which featured a letter from Bill Clinton. And it’s my post, so if anyone gets to tone police the thread under it, it’s me. ;-)
JoyceH
@Betty Cracker: I saw a screen shot of Clinton’s contribution but I couldn’t read his handwriting. Can someone provide the text? Was it anything more than anodyne well wishes on your birthday?
Shalimar
@AxelFoley: The country is being destroyed by a racist, sexist pedophile, but people talk about flowers every Sunday morning. Are you going into those threads to shit on them for not staying focused?
divF
@WereBear: How about Lester Young’s Upright Organ Blues ?
Betty Cracker
@JoyceH: Pretty anodyne, IIRC — the only unfortunate phrasing was Clinton noting Epstein’s “childlike” curiosity.
WereBear
@divF: LOL!
JoyceH
Also – does the book contain copies of the letters or the actual original letters? If the original, just dust the damn thing for fingerprints. Handy thing about having a felon president is that we know his fingerprints are on file.
Shalimar
@Betty Cracker: “Childlike” could also be a wink to knowing about the girls. I haven’t looked through them either. Are there any letters in this book that weren’t winking acknowledgements of what he was doing? Because everything I have seen so far makes it seem like getting important people to do that was the reason Maxwell put it together. In other words, “look, Jeffrey, all these people know and will protect you if they have to.”
Geminid
@Geminid: About the Doha strike, from aggregator site OSINTDefender:
There is video out of the supposed target showing a two story villa with the bottom floor showing signs of explosions inside.
Paul in KY
@WereBear: He really knew and appreciated fine wood.
Betty Cracker
@Shalimar: I haven’t read every single letter either but the majority seemed to be gross praise of Epstein’s lecherousness. I don’t assume Clinton knew anything about the pedophilia. It’s possible, but it’s also possible Maxwell solicited a letter from him because he was a former prez and therefore a prestigious social contact.
But your theory sure sounds plausible for the other wealthy perverts who contributed letters. Elite impunity was the name of the game, I guess. BTW, one of those contributors is the UK’s current U.S. ambassador. Mind boggling.
Paul in KY
@Shalimar: I think everyone who knew Epstein knew he had a thing for young females.
Shalimar
@Betty Cracker: It’s also possible Maxwell told people when soliciting the letters the focus should be on how sophisticated Epstein was while maintaining his youthful creativity, or whatever. Just because she intended to get letters that sounded incriminating doesn’t mean everyone who submitted letters knew. I don’t think Clinton was involved or that would have been the story for the last 7 years. Q-Anon gets a scalp.
But I do continue to take exception to what Watergirl said to begin with, that there is a massive difference between 22 and 16. When the attention is coming from a 49-54 year old, you can never be sure where their line is.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: There is some archived NBC footage floating around the internet that was taken at a Mar-a-Lago party in November,1992. It was taken for Faith Daniels’s show and is worth seeing.
It begins with a bunch of Buffalo Bills and Miami Dolphins cheerleaders dancing around chanting “Donald! Donald!” Then the camera follows Trump to the front door where he greets three guests, one being Jeffrey Epstein. Trump and Epstein are then shown watching the dancing women. At one point Trump says something that makes Epstein double up in laughter.
The one and a half minute video just shows that the two men were friends. No crimes, except– Trump looks really coked up. His eyes are all pupil, no iris.
Matt McIrvin
@Bill Arnold: When my wife and I first started dating we were honestly kinda close to “half your age plus 7”: I was 28 and going through a delayed adolescence in grad school, she was 22 (more than 21) and already out seeking her fortune in the world. But when you’re young you’re often kinda close to the edge, I guess. Her perspective was always that she was a grownup and it was not an issue. Now we’re just another old couple.
Geminid
@Geminid: More on the Doha strike from OSINTDefender: a statement from WH press secretary Kariline Leavitt:
Israeli officials say the raid was retaliation for yesterday’s attack at an Israeli bus stop that killed six people and wounded a dozen more.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: My understanding is that Bill and Hilary took rides to Africa on Epstein’s plane. He had introduced himself as a donor to their charitable endeavors in Africa. The relationship did not last very long, I suspect because the Clintons were warned off by someone who knew Epstein was trouble.
whatsleft
@Professor Bigfoot: A very Happy Burthday to you! May you comment for another 30+ years!!
A Streeter
It’s striking how many of the writers of the execrable anti-“woke” book “The War on Science” were involved with Epstein, including the editor Lawrence Krauss, who also had his own independent harassment scandal.
WTFGhost
@Shalimar: Clinton was not the kind of guy who’d want to diddle younger-than-legal kids. The most they’d get Clinton on is “he had sex with one of Epstein’s sex slaves,” which is a horrible thing *to do*, but isn’t that horrible on a mens rea standpoint.
“Mens rea” is the concept of “guilty mind.” If you’re at Epstein’s place, you expect sex workers – not slaves. If you have sex with a sex slave, thinking she’s just a sex worker, your mens rea is “sex with a prostitute” which isn’t a very damning thing.
So they might have Clinton having sex with a presumed sex worker – if they have him on worse, I’m okay letting him fry.
Trump, they have on “he ratted out Epstein, to avoid being ratted out for money laundering”. Good looking trade so far.
And seriously: if you were given a billion dollars, would you even consider having sex with an underage girl? You’d feel so skeevy just knowing these girls look… so young! Kinda… too young, you know? We’re going to see actions from people who don’t have that revulsion at the idea that they are going to do something, horrible, to someone, who will have to remember that something forever. I’m good with every single one of those suckers getting painted with a scarlet P-for-pedophile.
WTFGhost
@Professor Bigfoot: Yeah, yeah, yeah, happy birthday.
Seriously.
Sincerely.
My birthday is in two days, you lucky mother effer. (That means I think you may have had children. I’ve never understood why it’s such an insult!)
Fun fact: my marriage was on the rocks. But it’s birthday – dinner, and at least a discussion of sex (my wife had fibromyalgia, so sex was challenging), and maybe… maybe a chance at rebuilding things. It was hope, you know?
I worked the night shift, so I got to wake up, in Eastern Time Zone, to news that the twin towers had been hit, and so had the Pentagon, and… so much for *that* birthday!
Plus, now, it’s an asshole party, every birthday that Republicans have enough power to be total assholes. (Here, I’m using the Team America: World Police definition of assholes/dicks/pussies.)
(Shakes head to clear it) Happy Birthday! Wants some cake? Or I can cook a great marinara (for a newbie Italian cook) for the birthday dinner pasta.
AxelFoley
@Shalimar:
Are you serious with this shit?
Kayla Rudbek
@Professor Bigfoot: happy birthday and many more peaceful ones!
dnfree
@Betty Cracker: I had a co-worker who was an adult child of an alcoholic (and had married an alcoholic) when Bill Clinton was running in the primaries. She said she would not vote for him because of his being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic. There are apparently several possible profiles, and Bill fits one of them that involves being an overachiever and yet vulnerable to breaking down under stress. She felt the inevitable stress of being president would be too much for him. Clinton was under stress when he began the affair with Lewinsky.
Kayla Rudbek
@p.a.: yes, the Old World aristocracy didn’t always have money, and looked down upon the merchants and shopkeepers who were actually making the money (although they wound up marrying them in order to get money to keep their houses and lands)
Kayla Rudbek
@Karen Gail: I heard it from a college classmate, never really trusted him again after that…
Misterpuff
@Chief Oshkosh: I remember when the joke was “Hookers and Blow” about the CEO class. Little did we know it was a euphemism for “Pre-teens and Perversion”.
Paul in KY
@dnfree: He was still waaaaaay better than GHWB and Dole.