This is about cashing in on the wingnut gravy train:
Ms. Davis’s decision on Tuesday to refuse licenses to same-sex couples led to the contempt hearing, and she testified that she had not hesitated to maintain her opposition to licensing same-sex couples.
“I didn’t have to think about it,” Ms. Davis said. “There was no choice there.”
But after seeing their boss jailed, most of Ms. Davis’s deputy clerks said Thursday that they were willing to break from her demands and comply with Judge Bunning’s order, even if they did so with deep reluctance.
“I don’t really want to, but I will follow the law,” one deputy, Melissa Thompson, told the judge. “I’m a preacher’s daughter, and this is the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life.”
***Judge Bunning, however, said from the bench that he believed fining Ms. Davis would “not bring about the desired result of compliance.”
With Ms. Davis jailed, the agreements by her deputy clerks left gay and straight couples poised to receive marriage licenses in the county for the first time in months.
“We’re going to the courthouse tomorrow to get our marriage license; we’re very excited about that,” said April Miller, who sued after she and her partner were denied a license. “We’re saddened by the fact that Ms. Davis has been incarcerated. We look forward to tomorrow; as a couple, it will be a very important day in our lives.”
A lawyer for the couples, William Sharp, said Thursday’s ruling demonstrated that “religious liberty is not a sword with which government, through its employees, may impose particular religious beliefs on others.”
She’s not even going to succeed in preventing gay marriages with this horseshit. Not only is she a failure as a human being, a failure at her job, but she’s failing to accomplish the one things she wants that- to be a successful bigot.
Mike J
10,000 times classier than I would have been.
Baud
@Mike J:
Almost Trump-like.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike J: In private, the two are laughing their asses off.
Mike in NC
O/T: MSNBC showing footage of Trump bodyguard beating up a Latino protester today. That will play well.
rikyrah
Glad she was thrown in jail. Can not wait to see the couples tomorrow.
Elizabelle
Mrs. Davis should lose her job.
Matt McIrvin
@Mike in NC: It will, in fact, play well with the intended audience.
Aleta
She’s made out to be a heroic individual, but she must have sponsors who are urging her on, telling her the bills will be paid, arranging the talk show appearances and tie ins to get out the vote.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elizabelle: She is an elected official. She would need to be impeached by the KY legislature.
Mike J
@Elizabelle: There are several other counties in KY where the clerk has refused licenses. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow brings there.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mike in NC:
Saw that earlier. But IIRC, didn’t some of Rand Paul’s goons curbstomp someone when the Aqua Buddha was running for Senate? Unfortunately, evidence of willingness to initiate force doesn’t seem to deter voters.
Mobile Grumpy Code Monkey
For reference, the Oath of Office for KY county clerks:
The only relevant fact in this case is that Davis refuses to fulfill her obligations as a public servant. Her past is irrelevant, her beliefs are irrelevant apart from they are the reason she cites for not living up to her oath of office.
She feels the duties of her office can not be reconciled with her beliefs, then she needs to resign. But at this point she is dicking with people’s lives. You need a marriage certificate for, among other things, getting your spouse covered under your insurance.
Belafon
I’ve read that there may be some question as to whether licenses signed by deputies will be considered valid since they still have her name on them.
Aleta
She’s made out to be a heroic individual, but she must have sponsors urging her on, telling her the bills will get paid. Arranging the talk show appearances and the voter rallies.
RK
Davis embodies both the grandiosity and idiocy inherent in believing religious texts are revelatory. I read that without her name or signature on those licenses they may not be legit.
Gex
I also read that a KY judge has already opined that licenses issued tomorrow may not be valid. Reported on Joe My God, not a lot of detail. If the licenses are issued without her signature they may not be valid. I assume there’s a stamp, but I’m not certain the other clerks would have access to it without her handing it to them. I know at my work the boss’ signature stamp isn’t just lying around for just anyone to use. I suspect that is what this afternoon’s rigmarole about her refusing to authorize others in her office to issue licenses. I guess we’ll see tomorrow. But she hasn’t necessarily lost yet.
I’m kinda tired of living in interesting times.
Side note, I had this conversation today:
Therp (who is Jewish): I always wondered how my people’s presence on the Earth causes world calamity. Your people were there too, in the Holocaust. You were the pink triangle people. We were the yellow star people.
Me: It’s like the saddest bowl of Lucky Charms ever.
Omnes Omnibus
@Belafon: I would argue that issuing a marriage license is a ministerial act – it requires no judgment or discretion. If a couple show up with the appropriate paperwork and pay the fee, the license shall issue. She doesn’t have discretion not to issue them. Issuing them in her name during her unavoidable absence should not be an issue.
Belafon
@Omnes Omnibus: I would too, but it’s still covered under state law.
Punchy
@Omnes Omnibus: She cant be removed by being in jail? So if she was foung guilty of shoplifting and had to spend 30 days in the pokie, so keeps her job and paycheck if the state legy doesnt act? Holy loophole…
Omnes Omnibus
@Belafon: Her personal objection shouldn’t matter. if KY law allows the licenses to issue during her absence for the office (I assume it does), my opinion is that the deputy clerks can issue valid licenses.*
*I am not licensed to practice in KY.
Punchy
Next question. When does she get out? Does she have to pinky-swear to follow the law? What if…no, make that “when”….she promises to but then doesnt? Is it back in the brig?
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, what if she were raptured? Someone has to sign those licenses.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gex:
That conversation made me smile and cry. Funny line, but jeez, the context!
Baud
@Punchy:
Yes and yes. Possibly criminal contempt if she reneges.
Amir Khalid
@Gex:
If Mrs Davis continues to impede in any way the issuing of valid marriage licences, won’t that aggravate her contempt of court? I doubt judge Bunning would be pleased.
Omnes Omnibus
@Punchy: She gets out when she convinces the judge that she will obey his order. She goes back if she fucks with the judge.
benw
@Gex:
OMG you just about made me spit Miller Lite all over my keyboard. Sad, and hilarious.
@SiubhanDuinne: comedy is tragedy plus time!
RSA
Oh, for God’s sake. You know what she could have said? “All right, then, I’ll go to hell.” Missed opportunity.
satby
I just find it hard to believe there’s no legal mechanism to remove someone from office who refuses to perform the duties of that office short of impeachment. That’s some seriously poor planning… or maybe that’s a feature, not a bug.
I hope the prosecutor is having a forensic accountant take a gander at her books while she’s in the pokey, because I’d be surprised to find out they were in order. Her family thinks that office is their birthright, and there’s a lot of fee money collected just sitting there, waiting to be used. Like for a fifth “godly” wedding.
Gex
@Amir Khalid: What more can the legal system do to her now that she is in jail? I certainly don’t feel I’m an expert, but the impression I got was that the clerk’s signature was required on licenses, that was why she forbade the rest from issuing licenses in the first place. If she’s in jail, it’s an elected office and the KY legislature won’t remove her, what else can be done?
srv
Contempt for the law is only heroic when you’re Obama.
Gex
@SiubhanDuinne: I know!
My therp noted that I am very good at taking very painful things and making them funny. Possibly why many comics I know suggest I should try it.
By the way, my friend Andy Erickson is in the Last Comic Standing finals, everyone should watch her next Wednesday.
Omnes Omnibus
@srv: Trump’s Lord Haw-Haw is back.
Major Major Major Major
I saw somewhere (Memeorandum?) that Gofundme changed their policy so that people can’t use it to raise money for, you know, having committed crimes. So she’d need another source at any rate.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
Any news?
Mark
Nobody in Rowan County, the State of Kentucky, or the United States of America has to pass any religious test that Ms. Davis decides to impose on them, for any reason. Life is that simple!
Gex
@efgoldman: That’s why I discussed the concept of a signature stamp. At work the checks we send our independent contractors get signed by a director. Or rather, a stamp with his signature. But it is not like everyone in the office gets access to that whenever they want. It’s his signature, he controls who can use the stamp and when. It seems like a highly probable way for this county to operate as well.
But like I said, I don’t know. I just relayed what I read and that the opinion was reportedly of a KY judge. And now that it has been publicly stated that a signature-less license may not be valid, I’m sure there will be no shortage of right wing assholes ready to challenge anyone and everyone they suspect may have an invalid license. See also: Voter ID.
mtiffany
Welcome to the adult fcking world, princess.
What is it that the kids were saying a little while ago but are no longer using? “I just can’t with her.” Is that it? I just can’t with these people.
jl
@Mike in NC:
” O/T: MSNBC showing footage of Trump bodyguard beating up a Latino protester today. That will play well. ”
I suppose it is in the clip below. Demonstration outside Trump Tower. Trump security doesn’t like a protesters sign, grabs it and then clocks the protester when he tries to retrieve it. That’ll play well with the GOP base going for Trump, sadly.
Trump Bodyguard Strikes Protester
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzu6knObqvI
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@efgoldman:
That seems weird to me, too. If the county clerk goes on vacation for a week, does the entire clerk’s office shut down because no one else is allowed to sign drivers licenses or marriage licenses? We may need someone in KY to tell us if it’s common for people to be told they can’t get their drivers license because the clerk is out sick that day, so they’ll have to come back tomorrow.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gex: I addressed this above.
Gex
@Omnes Omnibus: Ah, thanks!
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I love it when you talk judicial.
JaneE
Too bad no one ever pointed out to her that Jesus condemned both public displays of righteousness and hypocrisy. And judgmental behavior.
benw
@efgoldman:
I knew I’d catch it for that, but I’ve gotta maintain my girlish figure!
SiubhanDuinne
@benw:
!!
Yes!
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Gex:
IANAL, but as far as I could tell from the story I read, the judge offered Davis one last opportunity to stay out of jail by asking her if she was willing to delegate the signing of marriage licenses to someone else. She refused and went to jail. It sounded kind of like when pharmacies claim that if one of their pharmacists won’t fill your prescription because of “conscience,” they’ll just give it to another pharmacist to fill. He offered her a chance to stay out of jail by delegating the responsibility, and she refused. By going to jail instead, she theoretically cleared the way for someone else to sign under whatever rules they have for vacations, leaves of absence, etc.
PurpleGirl
@Punchy: This contempt issue is a civil matter; being convicted of shoplifting would be a criminal matter and the consequences would be different.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: It’s not cancer? They sent me to the head of the department so whatever prelim results came from the scans must have been very uh, interesting.
The questions were very specific.
“Any olfactory hallucinations?”
“I didn’t know you could have those, but now that you mention it, probably…”
“Something burning? Burning hair?”
“…uh. Yeah.”
Und so weiter.
Also barium tastes terrible.
David Koch
there’s a hellva tennis game going on right now on ESPN2 btwn Caroline Wozniacki and Petra Cetkovska. They’re open to enter a final tie breaker in the 3rd set.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gex:
That’s the essence, isn’t it?
Keith G
From the ridiculous to the sublime.
Just got in from Ed Sheeran’s opening concert of his American tour..
He filled Houston’s pro soccer arena and preformed for two hours. At 24, he has become such a consummate professional. If he is in your neighborhood, give him a go.
srv
Who will help this man run for President. It’s like the train wreck that never ends.
Major Major Major Major
It’s not like we’re nearing the end of the normal fiscal year or anything, and I assume the single couple at the center of this whole thing is in good enough health. Obviously I want them to get married last week and stuff, and this is stupid and outrageous, but it’s not a humanitarian crisis.
I know how much this whole rigamarole sucks, quite personally, but…
Well, I don’t know what I’m trying to say. It’s humiliating for them, but maybe that’s the worst part. This will probably be solved long before there’s any urgency to the matter?
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: The issue is that a federal judge has issued an order and a county clerk is saying “Fuck you, my religious beliefs are more important than the law.”
ETA: IOW it isn’t about the couples right now. It is about the rule of law.
Gex
@Major Major Major Major: There’s always urgency to these matters. Minnesota passed marriage equality 5 months after my partner died and I got royally fucked. Justice delayed and all that.
benw
@JaneE:
As far as I can tell, a pretty huge fraction of evangelical Christians could give a flying fuck what Jesus Christ had to say, but are all hot-and-bothered for some Old Testament style smiting.
@SiubhanDuinne: just in case you think I’m a super genius for that, I didn’t come up with it!
David Koch
after a 3 hour duel, in 90 degree heat, Petra Cetkovska (who looks like a super model) wins 6-4, 5-7, 7-6.
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: Well it’s not like I haven’t been following this, Omnes. I know what the legal issue is. There’s just not much of an emotional or urgent drive behind it, other than the obvious dignity issues, unlike in say Obergefell or Windsor, or even Lawrence even though that one was a little tawdry. As if I care, but you know what I’m saying.
Like I said, I don’t know what I’m trying to say other than pointing that out.
ETA: Yes, it *is* all about the rule of law.
David Koch
@jl: you know who else had their private army attack minorities in the streets.
Suzanne
I hate to be this cynical, but here goes: Kim Davis will not be a successful martyr. There will be no grift or Wingnut welfare. She isn’t pretty enough. She hasn’t dropped 19 puppies, uh, borne 19 children. She’s not related to anyone famous or prominent or rich. They will all get sick of her really soon. If she was counting on this as a means to a lifestyle change, I think she’s dumber than I originally thought.
Cacti
@Mobile Grumpy Code Monkey:
The last part is what Davis refuses to do.
Ergo, she is unfit to continue to hold office, and should resign or be removed.
Major Major Major Major
@Cacti: Also God said not to violate oaths.
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: Right, this fight isn’t actually about gay rights. It is about how the legal system works. And it is is also why Ms. Davis is going to be crushed.
ETA: I call bullshit on your suggestion that it isn’t urgent. What if some same sex couple needs to get married because one partner is dying? What if a couple want to get married on the 5th anniversary of their first date?
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus:
She was even offered a final opportunity by Judge Bunning to avoid sanction by submitting to the Court’s Order.
She refused, at which point, the Judge had no recourse but to sanction her.
charluckles
@Suzanne:
This.
She doesn’t have the appeal to make this work for her. She is going to get used for a few moments and then tossed aside before going down in history as a piss poor imitation of George Wallace.
I think she really is that dumb.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: To be brutal, she is not attractive as well.
benw
@Major Major Major Major: I think I’ve been feeling the same way as you, 4M. Almost all of the reporting on this topic focuses on Ms. Davis. However, the couples who have been pushing for Ms. Davis’ office to grant their marriage license are taking a VOLUNTARY personal risk: they could cruise over to the nearby county and get a marriage license from a non-bigoted asshole. But they don’t, even though if something happened NOW where it would be better for them to be legally married, they would suffer. They are fighting a battle against bigotry at their own risk. And they are being gracious about it. In short, while this is about the “rule of law”, they are making it happen, and they should be recognized! Sorry if that’s not what you meant!
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: Because there is only one gay couple. And it’s not urgent for them.
Trust me, I understand the urgency argument but this is just two people who obviously have the means to sue a bunch. And nobody’s mentioned a health, tax, insurance, etc. argument at all.
Like I said, it’s not urgent *for them* *right now*. That’s all. I also mentioned I didn’t understand the point I was trying to make.
Ruckus
@Major Major Major Major:
Also barium tastes terrible.
After a few times it isn’t so bad.
OK that’s bullshit, you are right. I don’t know what shit tastes like but my imagination says barium.
Major Major Major Major
@Ruckus: Shit tastes kind of like blood.
Did not happen intentionally, trust me.
Ruckus
@Major Major Major Major:
OK, sorry about being able to describe the taste.
Hope things go OK for you, I’m waiting for MRI results to find out where things are for me, just another week and a half and I should know something. Most likely that I’m screwed, that seems to be a pretty safe bet over the last 21 yrs.
SiubhanDuinne
@benw:
No, I recognized it as a quote/truism, but I was impressed that you cited it so aptly.
Omnes Omnibus
@benw: One should be able to get a marriage license and get married in the county in which one lives. Full stop. One should not need to seek accommodations because of bigots. That is the point of this case.
divF
@Major Major Major Major: We can tie this whole discussion together with the observation that the lower-GI version of this is done with a barium enema.
I’ve had both sets of imaging studies done to me once. It is not an experience I am eager to repeat.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: I think I said that she isn’t pretty enough.
I don’t like that that is the way it works, because I am highly average-looking and I have been on the receiving end of insults regarding my appearance at times when I have the temerity to be right. And that sucks. But it is the truth, and Davis is not going to get to be a star for much longer.
Hell, they’re already over Sarah Sparkles, and she’s way better looking than this lady.
mclaren
This is how you do it, folks.
Put one self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou the-world-is-my-oyster-and-I-don’t-have-to-follow-the-rules asshole in jail, and guess what?
All the other assholes magically discover that, yes, they actually do have to follow the rules.
This is why I’m so GODDAMN pissed off about Obama refusing to throw corrupt financial crime lords like Jamie Dimon in prison. One of those creeps indicted, convicted, and sent into Ossining where the rest of the inmates will form a rape conga line on his ass, and guess what?
All the rest of the fucking creeps on Wall Street would magically discover that, yes, they actually do have to obey the law too. And the financial fraud and the economic bubbles and huge “too big to fail” economic crashes would stop IN A HEARTBEAT.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Which laws did Dimon break? Be specific. What evidence do you have have he was involved? Be specific. How much is hearsay? How much is conjecture? Do you really have a chance of winning a case against Dimon? Extraordinarily doubtful.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, the Spousal Unit & I did need a special letter from the governor of Massachusetts when we got married. In this state, clerics of “irregular religions” (as the clerk who gave me the form phrased it) must request a good-for-one-day-only exemption to make it legal, and we wanted a dear friend who happened to be Wiccan to preside. But Gov. Weld promptly sent us a very nice signed note on his letterhead, as I assume he did for any number of opposite-marriage couples during his tenure… and I assume Gov. Patrick, and now Charlie Baker, are doing the same for couples of all gender assortments even today!
Major Major Major Major
Lawyer fight!
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Major Major Major Major:
I think this falls into the subcategory of “urgent” known as better to nip that shit in the bud. Better to respond now, in force, to set the legal precedent than to twiddle around at the edges and let assholes like Davis set up “no go” zones that will be increasingly harder to get rid of the longer they’re allowed to fester.
Major Major Major Major
@Anne Laurie: I invited the First Family to our wedding and we got a very nice letter in response politely declining. Oh well.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie: As you know, the point of this litigation is that none of that should matter. If two sentient beings who can consent to the relationship without causing weird inbred shit consent, then cool.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Anne Laurie:
AFAICT, the state of California has very few restrictions on who’s allowed to call themselves a religious figure and perform weddings. You can basically show up at the county courthouse, say, I’m a Wiccan priestess, how do I perform weddings? and you’re in (though actually I think you have to take a short class that explains how to fill out the certificate properly and how to file it). As long as you do the paperwork properly, they take your word for it that you have religious authority.
You can also do the 100 percent secular Deputy Commissioner for A Day program and not have to be ordained in any way. It’s a fee, a short class to explain the paperwork, and you’re authorized to perform a wedding on X date. Some militant atheists go that route rather than the Univeral Life Church route (which is totally legal and valid in CA).
Anne Laurie
@Major Major Major Major: Gosh, I didn’t even think to invite Governor Weld! What would Miss Manners say!
It was amusing, at the time. There was a long checklist of “approved” clergy — including several dozen varieties of splittist Protestants, and Ba’hai, but not the umbrella-Wiccan Church of the Goddess, or Christian Science. And this just down the block from the CS mother church. But one of my fellow office workers was CS, and explained (IIRC) that it’s a philsophy, like Buddism, which is intended to work in concert with any religion; her wedding was performed by a Baptist minister who had an ongoing relationship with her local CS community, for just that reason.
(Also, our friend Christopher was furious about the “irregular religion” slip, which of course is why I told him about it in the first place, because he’s cute when he’s mad.)
SFAW
@benw:
Miller Lite (“The Ipecac of Bottled Beers”) – induced bulimia is just as troubling as the “usual” form(s) of bulimia.
300baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Are you asking these questions of a prosecutor? If not, is there some point besides making someone look small?
I think it’s reasonable to critique the Obama administration for not going after Wall Street’s leaders. About the best they managed to to was make that reptile Mozilo give up 5-10% of his ill-gotten gains, but with no admission of guilt. It beggars belief that, given the extraordinarily broad powers of federal prosecutors, absolutely nothing could have been done to hold financiers accountable for the enormous, economy-wrecking mess they made. But assuming that’s really the case, then we should have seen a clear report on the crisis and an energetic push for laws to prevent the next mess. But individual financiers remain as unaccountable as ever.
Politically, I get it: they’re a powerful and important constituency, and the revolving door between Washington and Wall Street makes it hard for villagers to even understand that there might be a problem. But this is exactly the kind of thing that Obama promised to change.
Anne Laurie
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Yeah, we discovered (after the fact, and I chose not to share this with Christopher) that the one-day permission was good for “any adult person” as long as they got the governor’s letter. Lots of people, apparently, get friends or relatives to officiate if they’re not connected to a particular church & they don’t want to go the Justice-of-the-Peace route.
Our friend performed a lovely, tasteful ceremony — somewhat to the surprise of some of my siblings, and not just the one holdout who stayed Catholic. He performed another ceremony for friends where the bride’s parents were conservative Baptists; some years later she confessed she’d told her parents Christopher was Episcopalian, and they believed her!
Calouste
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Washington State has no restrictions. You can call yourself properly ordained in a religion (that you might or might not have started that morning) and conduct a wedding. There are no checks.
Steeplejack
@SiubhanDuinne:
Fix’d.
EconWatcher
I would say Ms. Davis has just made her personal life fair game. If she wants to make a national spectacle of herself refusing marriage licenses because she cannot bear the tears of the Baby Jesus, let’s hear from her community just what kind of person she really is. Based on her obvious level of regard for her fellow man (and woman), I’m quite sure there’s some really ugly dirt to be found. Let’s see it.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
Which laws did Jamie Dimon break?
1. Interstate wire fraud.
2. Conspiracy to commit interstate wire fraud.
3. Criminal fraud.
4. Conspiracy to commit criminal fraud.
18 USC 1341!
The robosigned fraudulent mortgages were billed by mail. 18 USC 1341! GUILTY! NO QUESTION! OPEN AND FUCKING SHUT!
18 USC 1344! Bank fraud, same deal!
18 USC 63! Interstate wire fraud, because the MERS systems transmitted false subprime mortgage information across state lines electronically!
Hey, ignorant asshole, Goldman Sachs (of which Jamie Dimon is the CEO, already pleaded guilty to the SEC for massive subprime mortgage fraud and choked up a record $550 million in fines for its grotesque fraud.
Source: Securities and Exchange Commission government press release at the FUCKING SEC WEBSITE, YOU IGNORANT PUTZ!
This is NOT how you do it. When the Securities and Exchange Commission brings charges of massive criminal fraud, you as president do NOT order your fucking goddamn attorney general to accept a plea of fucking nolo and a slap-on-the-wrist fine with a promise-pretty-please-with-cherries-on-top (crossed fingers behind back) to “reform our business practices” (in plain language STOP CRIMINALLY DEFRAUDING INVESTORS USING ROBOSIGNING MORTGAGE SCAMS AND INTERSTATE WIRE FRAUD.
Hey!
Shit-for-brains!
The evidence is clear and overwhelming. Goldman Sachs engaged in massive deliberate widespread criminal financial fraud in collusion with some of the largest banks in the United States. Goldman Sachs has already admitted it in court. Fucking Obama just let them walk away without criminal charges, merely by paying a goddamn fine.
What is it with the halfwits and ingorami on this forum? Don’t you people read fucking English? Don’t you realize that all the major banks and major investment firms have already pleaded guilty or nolo to the charges I’m accusing them of, and they have all already paid massive fines and made promises to the government to ‘change their business practices’ (i.e., don’t get caught defrauding the public so blatantly ever again, pretty please) and `reform their business practices’ (translation: we won’t commit the same kind of criminal fraud again, we promise)?
Christ on a minibike. It’s like talking to a cage full of baboons at the zoo here.
Basic facts, and you people still haven’t gotten them through your thick thick thick skulls. The fraud has been proven. The firms admitted it (or pleaded nolo) and paid massive fines and promised not to do it again (yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, like we believe that horseshit).
The only question here is not whether these giant Wall Street criminal combines engaged in massive sustained grotesquely predatory criminal financial fraud…the only real question is: why the fuck didn’t Obama unleash the hounds of DOJ hell and run all these bastards into prison for violation of half the goddamn criminal fraud laws on the books????
And don’t tell me “ooohhh, ooohhh, ooohhh, we don’t have the laws on the books.” Bull-fucking-shit. We have the same laws on the books the Pecora Commission used to send a whole army of bankers and brokers to prison in 1934.
EconWatcher
@300baud:
I have to go with Omnes on this one. I worked as a lawyer for two financial regulators in the period from 2004 to 2014. In the wake of the financial crisis, everyone wanted to build cases related to the financial crisis. That was how to build your career. If you could find a supportable case and make it stick, that was your ticket. There was absolutely no lack of motivation, and the message from on-high was very clear: Let’s get our hands on the biggest fish we can and fry them.
But you can’t just show that someone took idiotic business risks; you have to show they broke the law, and almost always you have to show some level of intent. And you have to be able to explain what they did wrong so clearly that a jury of high-school grads will get it, even after the best efforts of obfuscation by the best defense lawyers that money can buy, with the most well-credentialied expert witnesses, bought by the defendants, also assuring the jury in learned tones that no crime was committed. This is what fianncial prosecutors know they will face, and while they should be ready to take some risks, they know they cannot take stupid risks by backing a case that won’t stick.
In very complex financial cases, what you often need to make it stick is a smoking gun email, revealing criminal intent in clear and undeniable terms. But you usually look like hell for it and don’t find it.
If you think Obama and his agencies didn’t want to make more cases based on the financial crisis, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about, as McLaren obviously doesn’t.
Major Major Major Major
@mclaren: Is there a reason you used so much invective chatting with Omnes just there? Seems untoward.
EconWatcher
@mclaren:
Corporations will pay big fines to settle cases. Bringing a criminal prosecution against a top executive is a very, very different matter.
Ruckus
@EconWatcher:
Really, I don’t want to. I couldn’t care less about her other that she gets paid a lot more than I do to not do her job and I do mine. I don’t care what she looks like, talks like, sleeps/slept with, has kids with, her religion or what color she dies her hair, what she had for lunch or if she likes moon pies. She is a petulant little human but I don’t even care about that. None of this is any of my business and really is irrelevant.
She should do her job or quit. She doesn’t get to chose what her job is, she was elected to do it, not to refuse to do it or redefine it.
Aleta
I think Ms. Davis is being used because she is useful. I don’t think the point of this effort is about her winning a battle or convincing a judge, or staying in the eye of the media. I think she’s being supported to act because turning out fundamentalist Christian voters is one piece of the GOP effort to win the election, and there are women who can identify with her, can see themselves in the way she dresses and looks. There are fundamentalist Christians who don’t care to vote because they believe corruption is everywhere and the world is about to become cataclysmic. And probably others who were fans of the Duggars, but some of that carefully built influence has been lost. In general the GOP doesn’t have to convince to Christian right who to vote for, they just have to convince them to go vote, especially in Ohio, Penn, Virginia, Florida. If she inspires other women to feel called to spread the word within their circle about some of the R candidates, then it’s a success. (I’m not saying that influence in the election is how she sees her action. I think there are a lot of reasons why women participate in fundamentalist families and churches, but many are vulnerable to manipulation and persuasion.)
EconWatcher
@EconWatcher:
An example of what you often need to make a complex fiancial fraud case stick in criminal court: Do you remember “Fabulous Fab” Tourre of Goldman Sachs? He was involved in the structuring and sale of some very complex instruments, but he wrote in emails that the stuff they were selling was s#!t (or words to that effect). Well, he got prosecuted and convicted. The DOJ made that one stick. I’m quite sure they dearly wish they’d gotten that kind of material on people higher up in the investment banks.
But here’s the thing: Fabulous Fab was that rare guy smart enough to work at Goldman Sachs but stupid enough to put such clear and explicit incriminating material in emails. They wouldn’t have been able to convict him otherwise. You just don’t get a Fabulous Fab very often. And I can guarantee you that whatever their sins, Jamie Dimon, Dick Fuld, and Lloyd Blankfein are way, way smarter than that.
mclaren
@EconWatcher:
Hint: hiring people to fraudulently sign mortgages under false pretenses when they are not the person getting the mortgage is prima facie evidence of intent to defraud. And knowingly colluding with said perpetrator is also prima facie evidence of both intent to defraud, and conspiracy to commit criminal fraud.
False affadavit?
That’s the head shot, buddy.
Falsifying a loan instrument. 30 years in prison.
That’s what prosecutors call it: the “head shot.” Any prosecutor worth spit can nail someone with the head shot if they can prove they knowingly falsified a loan instrument. The banks systematically knowingly falsified loan instruments by the tens of thousands, they admitted it, and Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street crime combines knowingly conspired with the banks to finance and repackage loans based on such falsified loan instruments.
Head shot.
All of ’em, 30 years in prison. Any prosecutor could file those charges and make ’em stick with hi/r eyes closed. They simply lacked the will.
Aleta
It’s not that unusual for women in Christian fundamentalist marriages/churches to have had kids out of wedlock or with different fathers, previous marriages, past drug addiction, past sexual assaults or physical abuse or mental illnesses.
groucho48
@srv:
A couple of Obama’s actions got slapped down by the courts and he stopped doing them.
But, thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
EconWatcher
@mclaren:
I know this is a waste of time, but have you noticed the big fish that Preet Bharara, the Obama-appointed US Attorney for Manhattan (SDNY) has bagged in insider trading cases? Very, very big guys have been sent to prison (Raj Rajaratnam, Rajat Gupta, Anil Kuma, and dozens of others).
Why could he do this in insider trading, but not financial crisis cases? Because in insider trading, it’s usually very simple: Show the guy got inside information, then show he traded. And the jury has no trouble understanding it–he had this valuable information that he was supposed to keep confidential, but instead he went out and made money on it. Love insider trading cases. Fun, fun, fun for prosecutors.
On the other hand, you want to show me Lloyd, Jamie, or other big guys were individually, criminally responsible for financial assets traded on false information? Good luck with that. Plenty of no name losers were sent to jail for that sort of thing, but the big guys were too smart to get tied to that.
Ziggurat
@EconWatcher: On the other hand, you want to show me Lloyd, Jamie, or other big guys were individually, criminally responsible for financial assets traded on false information?
It’s called discovery; you never get to discovery if you never file charges; and the behavior that GS and other firms have admitted to is probable cause to file those charges. Hell, there was PC even before that.
I’ve read a LOT of emails sent by financial executives – not at GS, but at comparable institutions – and you’d be surprised at what people say when they think no one is going to hear them. And if you don’t file charges and make discovery motions, then no will.
Ruckus
The world just got a little less pleasant. The pie filter quit working.
Damn.
ETA and it’s back! Life is good again.
Anne Laurie
@Aleta:
Yep. I also think the “Liberty Council” that’s now using her for a figurehead will dump her as soon as the spotlight shifts to the next ‘conscientious objector’ valiantly gumming up the works for their fellows in some backwater Heartland(tm) county… probably leaving her unemployed, unemployable, and stuck with the legal & other expenses they encouraged her to run up.
Somewhere down the road — I’m guessing in five years, during the runup to the next national election cycle — some enterprising reporter will do a whatever-happened-to post about Kim Davis. And the Wingnut Wurlitzer will pretend they never even heard of the woman, and besides she was already legally compromised when they threw her into the spotlight, also the b*tch was probably asking for it anyways. Those vultures don’t care what happens to their sockpuppets, especially the ones who aren’t straight white men…
redshirt
@Ruckus: If you rely on the Pie Filter for your well being, you’re lame.
Botsplainer
@Mike J:
Of 120 counties, 117 are issuing marriage licenses. The problem isn’t widespread, despite what the 24/7 media would have you believe.
Of course, here in the People’s Democratic Socialist Shariah Republic of Louisville (that lovely little slice of Kenya in the midst of the Heartland), my divorce judges were quietly recognizing out-of-state gay marriages for years in adoptions and divorces and we had a nationally early anti-discrimination ordinance for LGBT folks.
Another Holocene Human
@Major Major Major Major: It sounds like you are in good hands. And not cancer is always good.
Another Holocene Human
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s hard to wear smug rage-face well.
Another Holocene Human
@mclaren: something something jury failed to convict something thanks Obama
somebody should stop that man from mindmelding with juries like that
Cervantes
@Major Major Major Major:
That makes sense, because the color of it is due in part to the presence of “dead” red blood cells.
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus:
Was there a good-faith official investigation undertaken that could have answered these questions?
Cervantes
@Major Major Major Major:
Nice of you, though.
dedc79
@mclaren: all that ranting about how prosecutors should bring charges againat Dimon for crimes committed by goldman sachs. Well, Dimon is the head of JP Morgan, not Goldman. You just lost your case and maybe got sanctioned in the process.
Cervantes
@300baud:
Good questions that merit discussion. Thanks.
Joel
As noted philosopher Bill Belichick once said:
“Do your job.”
Joel
@David Koch: Women’s tennis is now faced with the same problem that men’s tennis was bogged down with for such a long time — the best player is too dominant. We’re all waiting for Serena’s coronation.
Denali
@McClaren,
Thanks for your calm, reasonable anwers to Ommes questions. Good to know we can always rely on polite discussions of issues here at BJ.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: She’s not attractive, but it’s even worse than that. She is just not appealing in any way.
shell
Youd think the Gravy Train would start to get a clue….but I guess not. Victimhood must be upheld! Davis being told to just do her job is the same as being thrown to the lions in the Coliseum.
VOR
@mclaren: Jamie Dimon is not CEO of Goldman Sachs, that would be Lloyd Blankfein. Jamie Dimon is CEO of JP Morgan Chase.
Paul in KY
@Mike J: Me too. I’d have made some ultra-snarky comment & then be in there the next morning with a big shit-eating grin on my face.
Paul in KY
@Punchy: Say she or another clerk murdered someone & was sent to jail. The legislature would probably call a special session for express purpose of impeaching/removing (if it wasn’t already in session).
This, not so much…
Paul in KY
@Keith G: Sounds like a great one. I expect I’ll see him at a festival sooner or later.
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: She needs to change that registration to ‘Republican’ to have a good shot of getting on the circuit.
Paul in KY
@mclaren: I do agree with you that strong jail sentences for these white collar criminals can be a real deterrent to the others. You give one of those creeps 5 years at a nice prison & by their calculations, crime does pay.
Paul in KY
@EconWatcher: I think you need to try. I think it is important to try.
Paul in KY
@Aleta: Agree. Think that is one of their calculations.
Paul in KY
@Botsplainer: I do love Louisville!
Procopius
@Aleta: What I was thinking. She’s sure to do well from the Wingnut Welfare Network™ and I’ll bet some group has already set up a gofundme account for people to contribute. Like with Darren Wilson, the cop from Ferguson. He hasn’t started looking for a new job and doesn’t need to for several years. Now in this case I believe this woman is completely sincere. She “converted” to “Christianity” only four years ago, so she shouldn’t be held responsible for the pagan behavior (divorce) she indulged in. On the other hand I’ll bet she’s dependent on her salary as County Clerk and did not want to just quit. This way she’s had national publicity, so right wing extremists will flock to donate to her and she can leave the office comfortably.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
Not well being, just makes avoiding an unreasonable event easier. I still get to see all the answers to the trolls, but I feel less compelled to waste my time, which isn’t worth much but is worth more than the effort to answer an idiot troll.
Glidwrith
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes, they did, and when Rand failed to school them was the day I started to refer to them as ‘Thugs. They were no longer worthy of the name Republican.
Mike Jones
The thing that gets me about the whole Kim Davis thing is that religious beliefs — anybody’s — really aren’t the real problem. The problem is that this woman, who I would wager has never lived outside of the area where she was born and probably hasn’t ever traveled very much outside of it, seems to think that it’s her job to meddle in the lives of other people. Hint: it’s not. Her job is to verify that the paperwork is correct and valid, then to file it so it can be found if needed later. She doesn’t approve, authorize, condone, bless, or anything similar anyone’s marriage. I mean, people aren’t even obligated to go through with the wedding after they leave her office.
To hear a lot of people talk about this, you’d think she was performing marriages and assisting with the consummation right there in the office.
Mike Jones
Oh, one other thought for the day: if she were black, all the outside support and legal advice would be referred to as “outside agitators”.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@VOR:
It’s a good thing the Obama justice department is more careful than our little legal scholar McClaren.