Hello from the Values Voter Summit, where Reince Priebus just called Trump a "champion for traditional values." pic.twitter.com/5vn1a8saP5
— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) September 9, 2016
Happenings that got overlooked when more important news broke over the weekend… Even four years ago, the Talibangelical “Values Voters” could credibly assure each other they were on the cusp of another Great Awakening. But this year, there’s a cuckoo in the conservative nest. Ed Kilgore, at NYMag:
The relationship between the Republican Party and its most important constituency group, the Christian Right, has often been compared to a marriage of convenience that does not involve a lot of mutual respect or trust.
As a couple of thousand Christian Right activists gathered in Washington for the Family Research Council’s Values Voter Summit this weekend, it was more obvious than ever that the GOP is straining the loyalties of the faithful. The star attraction, Donald Trump, was, after all, the fifth-place finisher in the presidential straw poll at last September’s VVS.
But like a long-suffering spouse, the Christian Right is sticking with Donald Trump as we head toward Election Day because he is convincingly the enemy of its enemies and is willing to make a few key gestures in the direction of the righteous, albeit in a clumsy and offhand way.
None of the Christian conservative leaders who have made opposition to Trump (e.g., Russell Moore of the Southern Baptist Convention) a matter of conscience were allowed near the podium of the VVS. Still, much anxious rhetoric was aimed at those who are thinking about voting third or fifth party or staying home. Former representative Michele Bachmann characteristically used the most extreme words possible to condemn that temptation, comparing the election to the choice God gave the Hebrews in presenting his covenant with them: “I have set before you life and death. Which will you choose?”…
Social con #VVS16 begins with Trumpy trimmings: FRC's Tony Perkins says it'll be "huge" and we'll "make America great again."
— daveweigel (@daveweigel) September 9, 2016
Nor could The Great Orange Fraud deliver a credible performance of giving a good God-damn, per troublemaking Mormon Buzzfeed reporter McKay Coppins:
Donald Trump dutifully trundled onto the stage at Washington’s Omni Shoreham hotel Friday afternoon to attend to one of his dreariest campaign-trail chores: courting conservative Christians.
“There are no more decent voters or selfless people than our Christian brothers and sisters here in the United States,” Trump read aloud to the audience gathered for the 2016 Values Voter Summit. “I’ve witnessed that incredible generosity all across this land.”
Trump continued like this for the first few minutes of his speech — plodding through prepared remarks as they crawled across a teleprompter screen — but he seemed quickly to grow bored. Before long, he was wandering off-script for several minutes at a time, as though in search for something more fun to talk about.
At one point, after indulging in a lengthy tangent about his recent meeting with a cohort of admiring clergy (“It was a love fest!”), Trump suggested the country was becoming less religious because faith leaders were no longer allowed to endorse political candidates from the pulpit (lest their churches lose tax-exempt status). The candidate’s pledge to change this law and un-muzzle America’s pastors has been a key element of his pitch to social conservatives, one of the few concrete offerings he’s made to them. But even here, he struggled to focus…
Words not mentioned so far by Trump at Values Voter Summit: life, marriage, abortion, unborn, Israel
— Alex Burns (@alexburnsNYT) September 9, 2016
It is amazing how effectively Trump has demonstrated the fraudulence of social conservatism.
— Josh Barro (@jbarro) September 9, 2016
Mr. Charles P. Pierce, at Esquire, on the people who chose to be there:
Here’s the roster of speakers at the VVS. You will see people who ran for president. You will see the chairman of the Republican National Committee. You will see some of your favorite star pundits, many of whom are welcome to appear on cable news programs for the purposes of “balance.” You will see many of you favorite star nutballs. And you will see the Republican nominee for President of the United States, who went before this designated hate group and pretended he’s read a Bible any time in his life.
This is an event that one of its award-winners, a governor of an actual state, felt was his own safe space to talk about armed sedition. What do all the people who took speaking fees from these people think about that? Why is this such a comfortable audience for important constitutional conservatives, and why do so many ambitious conservatives feel compelled to appear before it?By all means, though, let’s forget about that, and about how it reaches back to the collapse of democratic government to mobs all over the South in the last half of the 19th century. Let’s not make anyone nervous. Let’s all pretend that the condition of Hillary Rodham Clinton’s respiratory system is the same as the very real possibility that the country may elect an intellectually and morally vacant man to be its quasi-caudillo…
Trump doubling down on shrinking voter pool at #VVS16. Americans who id as white Christian:
2008: 54%
2015: 45% https://t.co/Gn2ezQ4CoM— Robert P. Jones (@robertpjones) September 9, 2016
Alt right #powercircle of Peter Brimelow, Richard Spencer, and Jared Taylor pic.twitter.com/PxjZ5A8Xfe
— daveweigel (@daveweigel) September 9, 2016
These guys, though: Super happy! Pumped for the Trumpening!
Marin Cogan, also at NYMag:
On Friday afternoon, Richard Spencer, president of the innocuously named National Policy Institute, a white nationalist think tank, took the podium at a tiny conference room at the Willard Hotel in downtown Washington. Earlier this week, Spencer and his guests, Jared Taylor, editor of the white supremacist site American Renaissance, and Peter Brimelow, of the anti-immigration site VDARE, announced they would hold a discussion called “What is the alt-right?” ahead of Trump’s speech at the Values Voter Summit across town at the Omni Shoreham Hotel.
The alt-right, as you may have heard, is having a bit of a moment. In earlier years, the movement — which combines elements of racism, anti-Semitism, and a general preference for nationalist strongmen over the candidates of either party — was mostly confined to the realm of dark web message boards, 4chan, and obscure blogs. About a year ago, they burst onto the scene and established a new home for themselves in Donald Trump’s campaign. In Trump, they found a candidate uniquely suited to the movement’s interests: funny, eminently meme-able, and promising to fix America’s worst problems through the sheer force of his will. Perhaps most important, they found a man willing to say the racist things no other mainstream politician would. As Trump steamrolled his way through the primaries, the newly emboldened alt-righters emerged as a force on social media….
… In all, the event lasted over two hours, and most of the question-and-answer segment was taken up by alt-right supporters and members of the media asking about Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. Spencer was happy to oblige. “I don’t think our support of Trump is really about policy at the end of the day. It’s about style over substance. Because, you know, policy, what does that really matter? I think it’s really about Trump’s style, the fact that he doesn’t back down, the fact that he’s willing to confront his enemies, especially on the left … you look at that and think, this is what a leader looks like, this is what we want,” he said. “He seems to be willing to go there. He seems to be willing to confront people. That’s very different than a cuckold.”
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” – ANIMAL FARM
.
Trump is attacking Obama for not admitting Christian refugees from Syria. His immigration policy would ban them from coming
— Ben Jacobs (@Bencjacobs) September 9, 2016
Louie Gohmert in full Gohmentum mode at #VVS16: "Hillary Clinton has made clear that she is mentally impaired."
— daveweigel (@daveweigel) September 9, 2016
Trump laments media making it harder for Christian parents to raise kids today.
Reminder: he talked about the size of penis at a debate
— Jonathan Martin (@jmartNYT) September 9, 2016
James Dobson: "America will go down in flames, maybe literally" if Hillary Clinton is elected president #VVS16
— Brian Tashman (@briantashman) September 10, 2016
"Don't you wish elections were like 6 weeks long?" Bachmann asks. "Like, maybe those 6 weeks in 2012 when I was leading?" she didn't say.
— McKay Coppins (@mckaycoppins) September 9, 2016
Trumpism at Values Voter Summit: "And I know when I can get support. I’m quite sophisticated…." pic.twitter.com/DFWBcCz42t
— Sopan Deb (@SopanDeb) September 9, 2016
Trump says getting rid of Johnson Amendment "was my idea." ARE YOU KIDDING ME. They've been organizing on this for decades. #vvs16
— Amy Sullivan (@sullivanamy) September 9, 2016
Rick Santorum says "politically correct liberal secularism" is being "jammed down our throat" every day. #VVS16
— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) September 9, 2016
Santorum on #NeverTrump conservatives: "Who are they? They're the intellectuals. They're the elites who are offended by his style & manner."
— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) September 9, 2016
I'd add "substance" to "style & manner," but otherwise accurate. https://t.co/bJK9rR0Adv
— Daniel Drezner (@dandrezner) September 9, 2016
Shouts of "lock her up!" here at the Values Voter Summit.
— McKay Coppins (@mckaycoppins) September 9, 2016
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Meanwhile, Nate Silver says that if Il Douche wins all the toss up states and one non-toss up state, he will win thus ‘HORSERACEEEEE!!!’
Jeffro
A side-by-side comparison would clearly show these folks that Clinton is the one with actual religious values much more in line with their own .
Not that it would matter
JMG
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Well, yeah, he would. I fail to see the point of criticizing Silver for that statement, just as I fail to see the point of the statement itself. It’s like something Troy Aikman would say about a football game.
Calouste
Well, fucking your mistress and second-wife-to-be while still being married to your first wife is a traditional value.
Chris
Even four years ago? I don’t think so. The religious right had its last glory days in the 2000s.
And I always thought the “values voters” WERE the alt-right.
Villago Delenda Est
“Social Conservatism” has pretty much always been about white supremacy.
evap
*giggle* Rick Santorum said “jammed down our throat”. The jokes, they write themselves.
Bostondreams
So at Trump’s stop in Flint today, a woman actually essentially told him to knock it off and quit making a political speech. Nice to see.
Villago Delenda Est
@evap: Rih can shove it up his ass, the source of santorum.
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
@Jeffro: No. In Clinton, they would find someone more in line with the values they claim. Trump embodies the values they actually, you know, value.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: Prezactly. These people are not Christians. They’re Mammon worshipers.
Frankensteinbeck
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
Close. Fundamentalist Christianity is based on white supremacy, but they do have a special flavor of it where they looooove their self-righteousness. They seriously get off on that. Trump embarrasses them. However, he hates who they hate, and hates as virulently, so they get a pretty decent tingle out of him. Hillary’s belief in charity and good works and especially equality? That’s no kind of Christianity they recognize.
mikefromArlington
I wish y’all could hear the radio stations here in Ireland. They take the piss of Trump daily. Maybe I’ll record some on my iphone so peeps can here for themselves.
Jeffro
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: point taken
Hal
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: I saw that post earlier and was a little confused. I guess Silver was entertaining the possibility but the odds?
So all Trump has to do is win all the states above and a state currently not in play for him and he’s president! Pizza for everyone!!
Kropadope
Look at Michele Bachmann reading from the same hymnal as the Balloon Juicers.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kropadope: Well, Sarah Palin said that God would choose who should be President in 2008, and God chose Barack Obama.
Chyron HR
@Kropadope:
You’re the one who goes around screaming about how much he wants Trump to win, kiddo.
mdblanche
@Calouste: It worked for Henry VIII.
greennotGreen
Having been raised in the church, I read the New Testament all the way through a couple of times ( not the Old Testament though – couldn’t make it through the “begats”.) What Bible are these people reading? You know how Thomas Jefferson cut up a N.T. to remove all the miracles? I think fundamentalists did the same thing, but what they removed were the teachings of Jesus.
geg6
All the fake Bernfeelers are back today. Someone must have sent out the batshit signal.
And how much do I love that pastor at the Flint church today who told Trump to STFU?
Roger Moore
@Jeffro:
She has values closer to the ones they publicly espouse; he has ones closer to the ones they actually believe.
Kropadope
@Chyron HR: Once, a long time ago, mainly to piss you folk off (and I’m pretty sure that’s not actually what I said). If you’re even vaguely familiar with my body of work you’d know that I don’t actually want Trump to win.
lollipopguild
@Villago Delenda Est: They worship Money and Power and crave the power to run the country as a far-right dictatorship. Trump is their Guy.
lollipopguild
@greennotGreen: They hate Jesus unless he is “Rambo Jesus” with a machine gun killing all of the people that they hate.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
I realize a white dude like yourself doesn’t have much to worry about under President Trump, but it’s not about you. Stop being so fucking selfish and think about someone else for a change, like the thousands of African-Americans, Latinos, Asian-Americans, Native Americans, Muslims, and women of all races, religions, and ethnicities who will be directly harmed by a Trump presidency.
Calouste
@Kropadope: For the people who are going to rounded up by the Trump deportation squad, it is indeed a question of life or death. And we know where you would be in that case.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
You “don’t want Trump to win,” but you don’t actually want to have to do anything to make sure it doesn’t happen. Gosh, that makes it all better.
JMG
The values people reflect the fundamental American Christian heresy. God is just like me, so he likes what I like and hates what (and who) I hate.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Thankfully, nobody cares what you think.
Alain the site fixer
Just a brief announcement – the site update will hit Friday mid-day. And yes there may be waves. I’ll do my best to minimize it. This update process should make future ones much less dramatic. There are a mix of site and host permission issues that get triggered when we apply the new file versions via git, and one goal Friday is to get that shit sorted if it isn’t already.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: I’ve donated to Hillary and plan on voting for her. What the fuck else do you want me to do? Putting a hermetically sealed bubble around my brain, much like you lot have done, that rejects all contrary information and any person who might even consider for a half a second doing otherwise doesn’t help elect Hillary Clinton. In fact, I’m pretty sure you’re harming your own cause.
rikyrah
@Calouste:
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
rikyrah
@Villago Delenda Est:
Absolutely
Patricia Kayden
@Calouste: Yep. Just ask Newtie. Christianists are okay with cheating as long as it’s among their own kind. But President Clinton cheating was the biggest scandal ever.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
you’re unstable and given to self-indulgent histrionics? Yup, got that.
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You’re a liar, got it.
Mike in NC
Aren’t all the religious “leaders” endorsing Trump the ones who preach the Prosperity Gospel?
Roger Moore
@greennotGreen:
Didn’t you know that some words are in red to show they’re optional?
Mnemosyne
@geg6:
A Short Allegory About Bernfeelers:
Democratic Voters (DV): “Hey, everybody, let’s have a potluck picnic for lunch on Saturday.”
Bernfeelers (BF): “I want to help!”
DV: “Great, what dish are you going to bring?”
BF: “I don’t want to have lunch, I want to have dinner. And I don’t want to have a potluck, I want to go out to a restaurant. And I don’t want it on a Saturday, I want it on a Tuesday.”
DV: “But the rest of us agreed to have a potluck on Saturday at lunchtime.”
BF: “FINE IF YOU DON’T WANT MY HELP THEN I’LL JUST STAY HOME!”
DV: “Uh, okay, if that’s what you want to do. It’s gonna be fun, though.”
BF: “Why doesn’t anyone ever invite me to go anywhere?”
Aaaaand … scene!
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Jeffro: These people are like children. They’re good people, Godly people, not because of how they live their lives, but because they say so. The only thing that counts with these people are words. I have a nine year old daughter. When she was about three or four, she had this little robe thing she liked to wear after her baths that had a little frog face on it that she could slip over her head. When she did this, she told us she was “Super Froggy”! She was a super hero. Once I asked her what Super Froggy did. She was stumped? “Do? I’m Super Froggy!”
Yes, but what does Super Froggy do? Super Froggy is a super ehro, right? What makes Super Froggy a super hero?”
“But, Super Froggy is a super hero!”
She didn’t get it. Or maybe I was the one who didn’t get it. A super hero was just something you are, by virtue of saying something. You don’t have to do anything. You just are. Same with these “Christians”. You don’t have to do anything to be a “good person” or a “good Christian”. You don’t have to help poor people, or even give a shit about them. You don’t have to comfort the afflicted or afflict the comfortable. You can be a bully, a racist, a selfish, greedy sociopath, a thief and a liar. You can afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable. You can do that as long as you make a point of saying that you’re a “good person”
These people are Super Froggy. They’re “good Chrsitians” because they tell us they are. Super Froggy Christians.
JDM
I’m all for churches being able to endorse political candidates from the pulpit, as long as they give up the tax exemptions we all pay for.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
I want you quit your bitching and act like you want to be here. Jesus fuck, you Bernfeelers are the fucking worst losers I’ve ever seen in my goddamned life. You make Little League parents look like elder statesmen.
Anoniminous
Volunteer for Hillary!
Time to get cracking.
greennotGreen
@Roger Moore: NOW I understand!
Miss Bianca
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): “Where’s my (Super) Froggy?”
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@JMG: I guess I expected more out of him than Aikman-level analysis.
eclare
@Alain the site fixer: Thank you for all of your work!
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: The problem here is that you’re attributing attitudes to me that aren’t mine. My observation that insulting persuadable voters is harmful to your cause doesn’t equate to being a sore-loser over a candidate I wasn’t all that fond of either.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Ah, that’s why Kropadope pushes my buttons so — he reminds me of my sister-in-law who not only bitches about everything that doesn’t go her way, but never lets it go.
True story: this 40-year-old woman with 2 kids threw a fit at Christmas because her mother did not buy sandwiches from the place she prefers for Christmas Day, and she has not shut up about it in the EIGHT GODDAMNED MONTHS since then.
(And, even worse, this is actually my slightly less crazy sister-in-law. The one is Florida is even worse.)
eclare
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): And that fits in perfectly with the alt-right (aka white supremacist) meme.
Roger Moore
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
I think it’s a little bit more than words; it’s about identity. Their version of Christianity is about being part of their group. The words are the way you show you’re part of the group, and once you are, you’re OK.
They have rules that they’re supposed to follow, but you can see their attitude in the difference between the way they treat insiders and outsiders who break the rules. Outsiders who break the rules have shown what a bunch of awful people they are; they’ve broken the rules because they don’t respect the rules or the identity of the people who follow them. Insiders only get the same treatment for rule breaking if they suggest that the rules themselves are wrong and there’s nothing wrong with breaking them; as long as they make a show of humility and recognition that they’ve screwed up, they’ll be forgiven.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
You really think the people who attend the Value Voters Summit are persuadable? On what planet?
eclare
@JDM: DAMN STRAIGHT. This issue has pissed me off for years.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: Now you’ve gone and dun it, you hurt Kropie’s feefees.
Frankensteinbeck
Please cut @Kropadope at least a little slack, guys. Kropadope got a lot of undeserved shit right when everyone lost their patience with Sanders’ followers, and got understandably pissed in return. And Kropadope, come on. Yes, Bachmann was actually right about something for once, that elections are important. We’re not wrong about gay rights just because Cheney, one of the most evil men on the planet, supports them.
Miss Bianca
@Alain the site fixer: Merci. Alain!
debbie
I half-listened to Glenn Beck for a while yesterday. His biggest fear at the moment is that the Alt-Right will take over the country, destroying the Constitution.
Meanwhile, walking in my neighborhood, I’ve seen many (20-25) Hillary signs. There’s only been one Trump Pence sign (sadly without the logo). This guy moved into the neighborhood a few months ago and must be surprised at the number of Dem neighbors he has.
I’m surprised that the people who previously had Romney and McCain signs in their yards now have no signs. The Hillary for Prison 2016 has again disappeared, I think, for the third time.
Just about all of the signs are deeper in the yards, up near the houses. There must have been some sign wrestling going on.
Mk3873
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: fyi, Trump is currently winning in CO, NV, NM, FL, OH, within 3 in ME, so yes, he has a very good chance of winning
Mr. Mack
2000-20002 I remember seeing quite a few local “clergy” haul ass to Washington in hopes of cashing in. One I knew fairly well has always relied on the church to eat, but he saw dollar signs and off he went, now he’s flipping houses. Sold him one in fact. I think they know that cash mine has been played out.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: I’m talking about the rampant, constant insults directed at people considering third party options and people who chose differently than you did during the primaries.
My complaints are about things happening in the here and now and I still have people going back months and months for material to use against me, including you and jim. Who’s not letting things go?
opiejeanne
That word “cuckold”. They are fixated on it, not realizing that the bullying asshole is no less likely to be cuckolded than a decent man.
Gin & Tonic
I know some of you are in the Atlanta area. So, yesterday, WSB-TV put this on Twitter: “UGA grad student killed, 2 others injured in bicycle crash”
They are being (rightly) raked over the coals, because it was not a “bicycle crash” – the poor student was bicysling when she was struck and killed by a drunk driver. If any of you know people at WSB or have any influence over them, please add your voices to the chorus that tells them this is completely unacceptable. This was, at best, vehicular manslaughter, not a “bicycle crash.:
Frankensteinbeck
@Kropadope:
Well, choosing third party is generally a bad thing, and doing it in this election is catastrophically idiotic, and those things aren’t wrong just because deranged assholes also believe it. They mostly believe water is wet. They can be right.
opiejeanne
@Calouste: Wasn’t at least one of his conquests married to someone else?
Gin & Tonic
@Gin & Tonic: So angry I got some facts wrong. It was in the Athens area, and the driver was under the influence of drugs, not alcohol (she was also talking on her phone at the time of the manslaughter.)
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
People considering third-party options need to check their privilege, put their precious fee-fees to the side, and vote for Hillary. I’m not going to pretend that Hillary and Trump are equivalent candidates just to make them feel better about their selfishness. If former US Senator/former Secretary of State vs game show host is a difficult decision for you, you should probably not vote, because you will permanently injure yourself with the pointy edges of the ballot.
I welcome people who chose differently during the primary but now realize that it’s time for the team to pull together. People who want to re-fight the primary every goddamned time they post and whine about how much better their preferred candidate was, not so much.
Frankensteinbeck
@opiejeanne:
A big white supremacist trope is that black men are trying to take away your white woman. They care about this a lot, so much that it comes out even when they’re not directly talking about it.
Kropadope
@Frankensteinbeck: But if you’re considering voting third party and the input you’re getting from Democrats is “you’re an idiot and a racist and a misogynist if you aren’t 100% certain you want to vote for HRC,” you probably weren’t persuaded to vote for HRC. And if you were someone inclined to hold your nose and vote for her, you probably had your mind changed the other way.
@Mnemosyne:
Sounds a lot like what you’re doing.
japa21
@Mk3873: Neither Trump nor Clinton are winning anywhere right now. They each have slight leads in some state polls, but to equate that with winning is ridiculous.
TOP123
@greennotGreen: it’s the no red letter edition.
(Edited to add that I need to read faster.)
opiejeanne
Nothing to see here.
piratedan
@Frankensteinbeck: well, considering how most of the white men on the tube have been behaving as of late, can’t say that I’d blame them for being afraid. Granted, acting with kindness, tolerance and thoughtfulness might simply be a bridge too fucking far for these guys, hence their fear.
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: I find that the number of people who decide who to vote for based on whether or not a candidate’s supporters were mean to them on an anonymous third-rate blog is roughly zero, but that’s just my anecdata.
Botsplainer
@Mnemosyne:
Fuck (rhetorically) that mendacious, incompetent piece of shit Jill Stein.
japa21
Off to get training for being an election judge.
Kropadope
@Major Major Major Major: Considering how much bitching there was here about Bernie-bros, I would argue that a lot of people around here let other people’s voters influence their thinking, if not their actual vote. And if such a blog is your primary interaction with other voters or people like Mnem are engaging in this sort of psycho behavior in meatspace, that may influence some votes.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
I volunteer to be your virtual “cool” sister in law. Wrong sandwiches? As far as I’m concerned, not cooking a holiday meal is a Christmas miracle.
You should know however that I’m probably considered a crazy person in my small town as lately I’ve been known to yell and make all sorts of gestures at my radio while driving in my car. It’s only a matter of time before I start getting the head-tilting-sympathetic-nodding-is-everything-ok-queries.
Gelfling 545
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Which is to say that if he doesn’t lose he’ll win?
Villago Delenda Est
I started out this cycle favoring Bernie. I liked a lot of his policy statements. But then I found out that he did not have clue one as to how to implement the policies he favored.
That’s when I said adios to Bernie.
Miss Bianca
@japa21: you go!
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: Sure, but I was talking about actual votes. The behavior of Sanders’ fans didn’t so much color my opinion of him as his response (or lack thereof) to it, though.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kropadope:
I will point out that 90% of the people still complaining about Hillary here, like NR, are trolls by any standard no matter what their affiliation. That has an overwhelming effect on discourse, ensuring a lack of friendly arguments of persuasion.
Chris
@Kropadope:
Dude, this is not a phone bank, or a door to door campaign, or a debate on CNN, or any kind of forum for third party persiadables. It’s a liberal blog. Forgive usif we don’t maintain third-party-friendly decorum at all times.
Miss Bianca
@Villago Delenda Est: you mean…you evaluated the evidence presented to you and changed your thinking based on that evidence?
There are NO WORDS bad enough for your kind of monsterhood!
Kropadope
@Major Major Major Major: Again, this type of inter-personal conflict is happening elsewhere and I maintain that it could influence some votes. That said, it’s nice to see there are still people here that want to engage in actual human conversation.
Gelfling 545
Wasn’t it God that told Bachmann to run for president? How did that work out? He’s just messing with you, Michele.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Again, you seem to be making a category error: “Berniebros” and “Bernfeelers” are not Sanders voters in general. They are a small, whiny contingent who has decided that if they can’t get their first choice, they’re going to
show Mommy she’s not the boss of themvote third party to strike a blow against The Man.If you’re voting for Hillary, you’re not a BernieBro or a Bernfeeler, and you’re only making the rest of us wonder what your goddamned problem is since we’re not talking about you in the first place.
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: It’d be silly to say outright that it couldn’t influence votes, but my instinct says (and I don’t even know where you’d begin to look for data here) that very very few people who actually vote have their vote on the top of the ticket decided thusly. I’ve certainly heard of people who decide that way on ballot propositions and local races though, people who were really just there to vote for the top of the ticket but wanted to fill out the rest.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
And some of us work off our animus under a pseudonym so we don’t tread on the delicate fee-fees of the Bernfeelers IRL.
geg6
@japa21:
Good work!
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I could understand the confusion, since “supporting Bernie in the primary and possibly being annoying about it” is what “bernfeeler” meant, like, two whole months ago.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Miss Bianca: Monstrum Delenda Est?
opiejeanne
@Mnemosyne: That’s some really weird shit, worrying about something that trivial for that long. Jeez.
dogwood
@Kropadope:
You only have to look at what happened at the DNC to realize whose supporters are more rude and insulting. The Sanders people were allowed to boo and heckle at will. They were interviewed constantly. Some put tape on their mouths to signify something or other; they certainly weren’t silenced in Philly. Yet, despite that, they were treated with a respect that was given, but not earned, by every speaker at the podium, including those who they treated like crap. I don’t engage with the leftists in “meat space”, and they can vote for whoever the hell they want. But I certainly don’t have to respect them.
Kathleen
@MomSense: Let me guess. NPR? Because that also described me when I listened to them. Past tense.
Kropadope
@Chris:
Not at any time and I’m a pretty committed vote for Hillary, but my interactions here have caused me to flirt with the “persuadable” column in the wrong direction.
@Frankensteinbeck: If people can’t recognize the difference between honest disagreement and annoyance for the sake of annoyance, they need some fresh air and time in the real world.
gwangung
@Villago Delenda Est: Theresenty of room for Sanderd’ ideas in the Democratic Party. His run showed you could win votes with it. There us hope for reform with the Democratic Party, none with the Republicans.
There is less room for Sanders, because he is far beyond his competence level as a manager and as a leader (not to mention he’s a hypocritical twit who’s nearly as corrupt as the people he’s criticizing )
geg6
@dogwood:
This.
Kropadope
@dogwood:
Do you have an alternate universe DNC to show me where Sanders was the nominee which would allow us a comparison?
MomSense
@Kathleen:
Yes! I had to turn it off so I wouldn’t drive off the road. I hope that Koch money is super sweet, NPR.
Villago Delenda Est
@Miss Bianca: Yes, I know. I’m so ashamed.
@gwangung: Absolutely, and one thing Bernie did do with his run was get Hillary to move left. It remains to be seen how successful she will be come January with a hostile Congress blocking her way, unless this is a wave election that ends the careers of such scum as Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: Yes, the 2008 DNC.
MomSense
@Kropadope:
Any claim you previously made to being motivated by a desire for inclusivity is now null and void.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Kropadope:
Yeah, well, show me anybody who’s said that to somebody who’s threatening to vote for Stein or Johnson because Clinton isn’t good enough for them. People are telling them, in the clearest words they can, that if they do this, they’re helping Trump, and if Trump wins, they’ll be at least party to blame for that, and we’re going to give them shit for it. If anybody thinks that’s more than they can handle, then they need to think hard about what they’re going to do, or they need to grow some thicker skin.
dogwood
@Kropadope:
That’s a response worthy of a 5 yr. old.
scav
@gwangung: That’s pretty much my take on Sanders, and the people determidly confusing the message with the exact radio set it’s currently being received on aren’t doing themselves many favors.
Iowa Old Lady
Clinton’s campaign has released more medical data, basically an “update” of the date put out last year. The ball is still in Trump’s court.
opiejeanne
@Frankensteinbeck: I know about the “where da white wimmen at?” issue, I didn’t realize that’s what they were focusing on when they call people “cucks”, or cuckolds.
I know that some men do worry about being cuckolded, finding a cuckoo’s egg in their nest, so to speak. I got a little crap from my MIL when one of my kids was born with reddish hair, so I told her the mailman was a redhead; she never did it again. I don’t know why she thought that was funny (it embarrassed my husband, her son) or even why she thought the red hair would be unusual for one of our kids, since there are redheads in both families: my sister has hair the color of copper and his grandfather had had red hair.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
@opiejeanne:
She had a therapist tell her she might be mildly bipolar, but did she ever bother to get evaluated? Of course not. Personally, I’m convinced she has Borderline Personality Disorder, but there’s not much that can be done about that unless the person is really motivated to change and is willing to commit to a yearlong group therapy program.
When my brother-in-law started therapy, the therapist listened to the whole family dynamic and then said, “So who’s the alcoholic?” She’s not, but she’s the “alcoholic” in that she’s the person who has to be tiptoed around and catered to.
When your 10-year-old daughter is calling her grandmother to apologize for your behavior, that’s fucked up.
ETA: Brother-in-law is her brother, not her husband. Don’t even get me started on THAT fucked-up story.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Does the 2008 DNC count, where Hillary graciously rallied her supporters and there were no disturbances or interruptions in the convention hall during the speeches?
Kathleen
@MomSense: I knew it! I’ve had to quit listening completely. The “reporters” are so bad, and “Here and Now” is the absolute worst, especially the breathless babbling Terri Gross wannabe whose most egregious crimes against “journalism” include 1) argument with a national security expert about his contention that the shooter in Orlando was motivated more by personal issues than ISIS or “terrorism” (she refused to accept his explanation and insisted on pimping the terrorist chicken) and 2) plaintive lament about Donald Trump’s supporters who are “hurting”, which I paraphrase as her “what about the white people” moment. Those are just off the top of my head. All White People Considered is not much better.
Villago Delenda Est
@Iowa Old Lady: Well, the ball has been in Drumpf’s court on his taxes, on Melania’s immigration history, on his fraudulent “University”, on all his failed businesses, on who he owes money to, and now on his health. He’s been pointedly ignoring all those balls in his court.
And the worthless shitmuffins of the MSM have let him get away with all of it.
Jesse
@Kropadope: “My feelings were hurt, so now I’m going to vote for the incompetent catastrophe, because everyone was insufficiently deferential to/about Bernie Sanders!” That’s what persuadable “in the wrong direction” means, right? You could be persuaded to vote for Trump?
It must be nice to be the kind of “progressive” who can unleash hell on all the groups Trump spent over a year demonizing in order to make a rhetorical point about voting for the old socialist white guy. It doesn’t even matter if Trump believes his own bullshit, because plenty of his voters do, and a Trump victory isn’t exactly going to calm them down.
opiejeanne
@Kropadope: Why would that alternate universe matter?
In Washington, at the district and county level caucuses in King County, the Berniebros constantly shouted down the Hillary supporters, at ours they wouldn’t let our speaker talk, even though they led @ 80% to 20%.
Major Major Major Major
@Jesse: I thought Sanders was the incompetent catastrophe.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
Yikes. Children making excuses for the parents is a big warning sign. Is there a family history of alcoholism or substance abuse?
Trentrunner
@Mnemosyne: I hear aloe is helpful for burns of this severity.
opiejeanne
@MomSense: Flirting with the ‘wrong side” is a bit of a tell.
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
It doesn’t count for anything. And I doubt that either you or Bill will get a response.
Mr. Mack
Kropadope: I’ve been on the web pretty much since it went live. So, I’ve experienced online interactions on many types of platforms. I’ve learned to not engage trolls, and flaming people who think differently from me just doesn’t satisfy…All that to say I have read your comments for quite sometime, and I just wanted to reach out and say that you make some very important points, and we would all do well to learn to listen to those who should be in the fold but are just not quite there. That’s on us…if we are going to keep this Party viable we had better find ways to keep the internecine battles as polite and respectful as possible. Sometimes, I think you engage in a way that just invites the vitriol…not making a judgement just an observation. Consider where you are…and argue accordingly. I’ve engaged more today on this blog than I have in a decade anywhere online…sorry if I sound condescending but at some point my writing skills fail me.
JMG
The Healing Crystal Party (a rare Kos commentator with a sense of humor describing Stein voters) will be persona non grata in the Democratic Party forever if Trump wins. That may not scare them now, but when their next hero/heroine gets two percent of the vote in his/her primary challenge, they’ll learn.
Cacti
Not sure why everybody’s treating the previously MIA “Berners” as if they’re acting in good faith.
Rodent copulation is in progress.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
See above. Or, as I said to my husband when she announced that her therapist had said she might be bipolar: “Called it!”
Some substance abuse, but it’s a symptom of her bigger problems, which predate the substance abuse by a couple of decades.
Iowa Old Lady
@Villago Delenda Est: I may be fooling myself but it feels like it’s getting harder to ignore all those balls rolling around his court.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
The alt right white nationalists think Trump is funny? Worst senses of humor ever.
Matt McIrvin
@opiejeanne:
It recently occurred to me that part of the reason “cuck” happened might be that the homophobic slurs lost some of their power. Accuse a liberal or even a libertarian of being gay and he has a decent chance of saying “so what?” So they needed something else.
Mike J
If you yelled “bullshit”, the people in attendance would think the anglo-saxon term for bovine excrement was worse than calling all Mexicans rapists.
Jeffro
@Roger Moore: Thanks – the Very Reverend Crimson whatever made the same clarification up in #10.
opiejeanne
@efgoldman: I am so sorry.
My in-laws despised me from the moment they met me, thinking I was from a rich family and I think for some reason they really hated that. It could not have been farther from the truth; my dad made about what his dad did, but my parents were very careful with their money, rarely ate out, etc, and when I was a Junior in HS Mom got a job with Naval Undersea Warfare as a steno so that my college costs wouldn’t become a drain on the household income. His family was always in debt beyond what they should have been.
When we got engaged they acted like it had hurt them somehow, and when we got married they refused to invite anyone from their side of the family. I could have left their side of the church empty, but I told the ushers to seat people on both sides, and not to ask them their affiliation. I was 19. I look back at my younger self and wonder that I had that much maturity in that one moment on that one day, because I know I was still immature in many ways for years later.
The rest of his family loved me, and never understood the animosity.
Jeffro
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Tell ’em “Deeds Not Words” (with apologies to both Chuck Norris and the Dropkick Murphys, among possibly many others!)
I think that’s the reason my quite-religious mother gives me and Mrs. Fro a pass when it comes to not bringing our kids up in the church. We live by the kinds of values we grew up learning in Sunday school, unlike so many others who say they’re religious.
opiejeanne
@Matt McIrvin: That’s an interesting take. It’s an insult directed at the man, but incriminates his wife/girlfriend.
Matt McIrvin
@Mk3873: The claim that Trump is winning most of those states is based on single polls that may well be outliers. The Ipsos one in New Mexico is particularly suspicious: it shows Trump winning by a big margin after every previous poll showed an increasing lead for Clinton.
The one on your list where I think it might be true is Ohio, though even there, a Trump +5 poll is being paid attention to over a Clinton +7 poll from three days earlier. I don’t believe that “basket of deplorables” and Pneumoniagate produced a 12-point swing over a single weekend; I think we’re chasing noise for the most part. Because people have gotten the idea that Clinton is tanking and the headlines of the past few days changed everything, they’re ignoring aggregates and freaking out over individual data points.
Major Major Major Major
@Matt McIrvin: Huh, that could very well be part of it.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
Untreated bipolar is a tough one.
JPL
Chris Hayes is attacking Trump, although fairly, on his lack of transparency. I’d like to think it matters, but probably not.
mainmata
@Hal: CO and VA at least by the polls are already beyond Trumper and WI and PA are at least probable. She may lose OH and NC to voter suppression and GOP fraud. FL is probably out of reach despite Obama’s successes. It’s going to be really close unless she really excels in the debates and, more importantly, he flips out close to the election. I don’t think a Putin “October Surprise” is going to make much of a difference.
Chip Daniels
@Hal:
Yeah, my thoughts as well.
I am playing one on one with an NBA all star, so all I have to do is block every one of his shots, and make one of my own, and I win!
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Mk3873: Come again?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
White supremacy is what’s being decided in this election. Everything else is noise.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
There’s something odd with the women on the paternal side. Her paternal aunt died young (in her early 50s) after a life of chaos and substance abuse, and her paternal grandmother was a piece of work who lied about her age so obsessively that she actually put the wrong birthdate on that daughter’s gravestone to make herself seem younger.
I don’t know if it’s bipolar, but there’s something weird going on with that XX chromosome combination.
gogol's wife
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Yup.
Matt McIrvin
@mainmata: There’s one Ipsos poll out showing Trump ahead in Colorado. Like the NM one, it seems really inconsistent with all other recent polls, but if you look at it with the assumption that a massive Trump wave has swept the nation over the past few days, maybe you’d interpret it as a real shift rather than an outlier.
Also, I would not call FL out of reach at all. It’s pretty much tied up.
Mnemosyne
@efgoldman:
We’ve been very lucky — G’s parents loved me and my parents loved him (past tense because we only have moms left now). I sometimes joke that my mom likes him more than she likes me, but it’s a joke. I don’t always get along with my mom, and we drive each other crazy sometimes, but I know she loves me.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@gogol’s wife:
The story of this election is the media caping for white supremacy once it became clear that Trump was out and proud with it, and Hillary called it out. That’s what happened. The mediocre white beneficiaries of white supremacy went all in on one side to support it, and there’s a white supremacist left of mediocre whites to cheer it on. It’s completely clear now.
Brachiator
The debates are not often game changers. I don’t expect Trump to flip out or to provide Democrats with a soft target.
I think that Clinton can seal the deal, however, with solid campaign effort and the support of a strong get out the vote effort.
eclare
@Chip Daniels: Great analogy, I don’t think Trump is LeBron!
opiejeanne
@efgoldman: That sounds like my maternal grandmother. We grew up in California instead of Missouri, so when we visited every other year, it was pleasant and we were not party to the game-playing and favoritism that Grandma did with the daughters who stayed in the KC area. We were outside of it growing up and completely unaware of it until well into adulthood, when my favorite aunt confided in me about some of the terrible things that had gone on since before they were teenagers. It had an effect on the local grandchildren, and most of them are pretty messed up as adults. My kids just have fond memories of their great grandma.
eclare
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I really wish people would be honest and stop calling it alt-right. It is white supremacy, period.
opiejeanne
@Mnemosyne: My parents loved my husband, but they made the joke about liking him more than me and in a way that wasn’t very funny. After Mom was gone, Dad mentioned that to someone within my hearing and I finally told him how much that hurt me. He didn’t do it again, probably because I had embarrassed him as much as he had me.
I was glad that they loved him. I didn’t like that they thought denigrating me was cute.
JMG
It makes me very sad to hear of some of the awful family dynamics among the posters here. I was lucky. My parents were strict, but interesting and fun, too. They were kind of mean to my children at first, but mellowed out as some of their peers told them how grandkids can really go wrong.
opiejeanne
@JMG: It makes me sad to have witnessed some of it.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@eclare:
There are so many ways to avoid calling it what it is, but it is what it is, and it is, and always has been, about white supremacy. From the founding. I’m re-reading the history of the Founding Fathers and the discussion of slavery in the first years of this country – nothing has changed.
WaterGirl
@eclare:
Could not agree more! It just gives them cover, which we should definitely not be doing!
WaterGirl
Has anyone else read the Mother Jones article about 4 months as a prison guard? It’s absolutely fascinating, but damn, it’s long! I made it through Chapter 1 but that’s about all I could do at one sitting. I wonder if all the on-line stuff has affected my attentions span.
eclare
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Alt-right sounds like someone made a wrong turn! What book are you reading? I might like to read it. Haven’t read much about the Founding Fathers.
WaterGirl
@efgoldman: Who is SPW?
WaterGirl
@efgoldman: What I want to hear is a description of how Donald was acting when before he was hospitalized for his nervous breakdown years ago. I wonder how similar that would be to how he is acting now.
eclare
@WaterGirl: Senator Professor Warren. I guess that is the full title.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@eclare:
I’ve had a book in my reading queue for a long time that I’ve put up and put down, now am deep into – Founding Brothers, by Joseph Ellis, a historian from my alma mater UMass. One of the stories he tells is the discussion, brought to the new Congress by Northern Quakers petitioning to abolish slavery and the outrage from the Southern representatives that it was even dared discussed in public, and how the revolutionary zeal that begat the Declaration of Independence kind of breaks on the rocks of slavery in order to get the Constitution ratified, and how the arguments that the Southerners made then manifest later in the Civil War, and depressingly, now with Trump and his racist orc army. It’s this country’s stain of original sin. We have an historic opportunity, now, to move on from that, but… will we take it?
AliceBlue
@Matt McIrvin:
Wasn’t the Trump +5 Ohio poll the one using 2004 as the basis for turnout?
SiubhanDuinne
@efgoldman:
And my mom would have turned 99 this past August. Alas, she died young (58), but both of my grandmothers lived well into their 90s.
Anne Laurie
@Alain the site fixer: @efgoldman: There is a “new” (as in: I’ve only noticed it happening in the last couple weeks) FYWP glitch where some comments, usually long ones or those with links, get tossed into the Trash folder. Not the Spam folder — which is getting a lot better about telling real spam from misplaced comments — but the garbage can.
I’ve been making a point of checking the Trash folder several times a day, just to fish stuff out & send it to the proper post. But I’m not always around to do that, especially during business hours.
Gin & Tonic
@efgoldman: My in-laws, still around, have lived to see their great-granddaughter, which is very nice. They’ll probably be gone by the time she’s at an age to form a lasting memory of them, but the fact they’re even around after the life they’ve been through is really something. My own parents are long gone, though.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
Could be that the paternal aunt was self medicating. We have a lot of that in my family.
eclare
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Thanks, it is on the list! I’ve read books on the Civil War on my own, but for some reason the founding of America wasn’t really stressed when I was in school.
Anne Laurie
@Mnemosyne:
I can only imagine how difficult such behavior must be for you to put up with.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
I have clear, if early, memories of four of my great-grandparents. My father’s maternal grandfather, according to family lore, enlisted in both the Civil War and the Spanish-American War — lying about his age both times! I remember him as a very, very old man riding in a parade (Armistice Day? Memorial Day? don’t recall) along with three or four other CW vets.
WaterGirl
@Anne Laurie: My two sisters are grudge holders. Thank god I did not get that gene. I might have to shoot myself.
Gin & Tonic
@SiubhanDuinne:
That’s great. I’m always a little envious of stories like that. I only ever knew even one grandparent; my wife knew none.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl:
That’s a pretty serious grudge.
eclare
@SiubhanDuinne: I have a picture of my great grandfather, grandfather, dad, and me at around 2. I treasure it.
LosGatosCA
Not seeing anything new in any of this:
Racism is the main essence of social conservatism/traditional values. The other two essences are misogyny and intolerance.
Trump has all of them in a-bun-dance.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Not to quibble with an esteemed attorney, but I would call that more of a poorly thought out impulse than an actual grudge.
Bobby Thomson
Not the Alt-Right, Anne. The white supremacists. They’re trying to white wash themselves (pun intended). Don’t help.
Anne Laurie
@Matt McIrvin:
Hell, I saw someone — Dan Savage? — quoting a neo-Nazi gleefully explaining that the ‘beauty’ of calling someone a cuck is that it ‘highlights’ the pitfalls of gay marriage.
These guys are deeply screwed up. Most of their mental space seems to be occupied by minute-to-minute calculations of alpha-style “ownership” in every possible interaction. The average male baboon doesn’t spend as much time worrying about their “rank”, because the baboons at least have other things they enjoy (food, mutual grooming, etc.)
Bobby Thomson
@AliceBlue:
Yes. Not sure exactly what that means, though. If the assumption is that demographics have changed, but the larger group of non-white voters will turn out at the same percentages as in 2004, that’s not insane. Having Barack Obama at the head of the ticket was a GOTV magnet in a way that not even Trump can duplicate. I’m hoping the 2004 turnout (on a percentage basis) is at least a worst case scenario.
Bobby Thomson
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: if you know anything about white people that was entirely predictable.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@greennotGreen: You are close, look up dispensationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
Bobby Thomson
@mainmata:
He had a good CO poll this morning. Could be an outlier, maybe not.
If he wins VA, he will have won enough other states to make it irrelevant.
FL is in no way out of reach for Clinton, given that Trump is bombing with both black and Latinx voters, so long as they are allowed to vote.
Bobby Thomson
@Cacti:
Yep. There are social media trolls who went from being pro-Bernie, to pretending to be disillusioned Clinton supporters, back to loud and proud Bernie bros.
Anne Laurie
@WaterGirl:
Oh, I most definitely have the grudge gene. But I’ve spent the last forty years (with varying degrees of success) trying not to share my grievances, except when they’re actually on-topic. Because it’s rude to make every conversation about “Did I tell you the latest hateful thing X did… “, and besides, I’ve discovered that people are much more likely to sympathize if they haven’t been conditioned to ignore a non-stop babble-of-bitchery.
Matt McIrvin
@AliceBlue: I looked up some more about that–I think it just had party ID similar to 2004. Which could mean that it’s all out of whack or that there was really a huge shift in party ID, which is not immutable. That last is the reason why most pollsters don’t re-weight for party ID. Rasmussen is one of the few that do, and we all know about Rasmussen.
I don’t know. I prefer trusting poll aggregators rather than diving into the weeds of individual polls and trying to figure out if there’s something wrong with them, because the latter activity is an easy way to fool yourself with motivated reasoning. If you only search for anomalies in the crosstabs of polls you don’t like, you’ll probably find some, just by chance; but since you never subjected the polls whose results please you to the same scrutiny, you end up with a biased picture.
The problem is, right now, a lot of people are convinced on the basis of headlines that there has been a sudden catastrophic shift toward Trump, so they’re ignoring aggregates that are more than four or five days old, and are paying unusual attention to shocking outliers that show Trump gaining. I am suspending judgment until I see more polls.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie
Huh?
WaterGirl
@Anne Laurie: Good for you. (I mean that sincerely, not being snotty.) And I’m not saying i never bitch about anything! Or anyone! But it does pass and I don’t seem to be good at holding a grudge.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I didn’t understand that either, but I’m so tired tonight that I’m not thinking very clearly, so I thought maybe it was just me.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: What I got from it was that AL came across someone, possibly Dan Savage, who quoted neo-Nazi saying gobbledygook. I put the blame on the neo-Nazi, not AL or Dan Savage.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Got it. Quoting, but not in a “this is what I believe” sort of way. I give up, I am literally too tired to think. Going to bed. ‘Night all!
Miss Bianca
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I listened to that one recently – made me think I needed to go on to “American Sphinx”, Ellis’s biography of Jefferson. Revolutionary era is fascinating me right now – gee, I wonder why…maybe Mnem has a theory…something in the air, perhaps?
Matt McIrvin
@opiejeanne: Yeah, there’s apparently a whole subgenre of porn called “cuck” that is about black men having sex with white women in front of their white husbands. It’s made of white-supremacist sexual neurosis on top of everything else.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: Why do you know this?
Matt McIrvin
@Omnes Omnibus: Saw this baffling, silly and archaic insult that sounded like something out of 1605 suddenly becoming current, wondered where it came from, learned things that cannot be un-learned. Have not actually experienced any of the porn.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: With things like this, I say I needed to know it for a case I was working on.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for explaining better than I did!
Yes — there seem to be people out there who think, now that they can insult both straight and gay men by calling them cuckolds, this “proves” that legalizing gay marriage was a mistake. There seems to be some complicated cross-over between the anarcho-libertarians who think marriage shouldn’t be a legal concept in any form, and 8chan-style lulzers who consider it a most amusing ‘paradox’, cuz buttsex = laffs. I feel like I (we) ought to know such people are out there, but I can’t bear to follow their arguments any more than I can the Sov-Cit ones!
Jeffro
Semi-OT but Lawrence O’Donnell is on MSNBC right now, showing footage of Donald Trump talking about “…Iranians circling our beautiful destroyers…in their little boats…making gestures that they shouldn’t be allowed to make…” (and then getting shot out of the water)
“beautiful” destroyers?
“little boats”?
gestures that they’re not “allowed” to make??
I’m so glad that the media is covering his Dr. Oz non-event, Melania’s immigration status, and all those other nice bright shiny things…while ignoring the obvious: the guy is a moron and a psycho who shouldn’t be in charge of anything.
Mnemosyne
@Anne Laurie:
We always hate the faults of others that we share with them. But stealing Vicodin from your dying father is still not cool.
Matt McIrvin
@Anne Laurie: And a little bit of that “har har now the gays can experience the same torture we do, amirite my bros? har har” obnoxiousness going on as well.
opiejeanne
@Jeffro: Last night O’Donnell was on fire, although he did waste ten minutes letting Maureen Dowd sniff about the Clintons. Other than that, he was beside himself at the beginning of the show and it was wonderful.
Haven’t seen tonight’s yet but I have come to really appreciate him. He is outraged by the majority of the media not doing their damned jobs.
J R in WV
WaterGirl: :
SPW is Senator Professor Warren…