Perry Bacon over at FiveThirtyEight identified the “six wings of the Democratic Party” — here’s an excerpt of each category with examples; more commentary about the categories at the link:
The Super Progressives
Very liberal on economic and identity/cultural issues, anti-establishment. (Anti-establishment is a very fuzzy term, but in this piece, what I’m referring to is people who see part of their role as not just attacking Republicans, but also highlighting what they see as shortcomings of the Democratic Party itself.)Prominent examples: Ocasio-Cortez , Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Rep. Mark Pocan of Wisconsin, Rep. Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan
The Very Progressives
Very liberal on economic issues, fairly liberal on identity issues, skeptical of the Democratic establishment.Prominent examples: Bill de Blasio, Sen. Jeff Merkley of Oregon, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren.
The Progressive New Guard
Liberal on both economic and identity issues but also somewhat concerned about the “electability” of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center; generally rose to prominence after Barack Obama was elected president.Prominent examples: Stacey Abrams, Cory Booker, Pete Buttigieg, Julian Castro, Kamala Harris, Jay Inslee, Beto O’Rourke.
The Progressive Old Guard
Solidly center-left on both economic and identity issues, but very concerned about the “electability” of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center; generally rose to prominence before Obama was elected president.Prominent examples: Joe Biden, Cuomo, Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer.
The Moderates
More conservative and business-friendly than other Democrats on economic policies; somewhat liberal on cultural issues; anti-establishment.Prominent examples: Rep. Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey, Rep. Conor Lamb of Pennsylvania, Rep. Abigail Spanberger of Virginia.
Conservative Democrats
Skeptical of liberal views on both economic and cultural issues, often supportive of abortion limits, generally from conservative-leaning areas.Prominent examples: Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin.
Huh. Not sure how much water that classification system holds. For example, Spanberger and Lamb are obviously “very concerned about the ‘electability’ of candidates and the appeal of ideas to the political center.” (I think Bacon realized that too, which is why he inserted “generally rose to prominence before Obama was elected president” to distinguish one class from another.)
Anyhoo, maybe it’s interesting in a Buzzfeedy “Tell us which Buffalo Wild Wings signature sauce you prefer, and we’ll reveal which member of Maroon 5 is your soulmate!” kinda way.
Open thread!
PaulWartenberg
Just as long as all wings of the Democratic Party understand they need to unite when it matters (NOVEMBER 2020!) to kick the goddamn Republican crooks out of office.
satby
When did Sanders join the Democratic Party?
PaulWartenberg
@satby:
He’s signed paperwork but I don’t even think he’s gotten the fees paid.
And he’s planning on running as an Independent for his Senate seat in 2022 (or 24?)
White & Gold Purgatorian
With all these wings, sure hope Dems can manage to fly in formation for a few election cycles. It’s going to take awhile to get the country back on track.
Just One More Canuck
@satby: is there a Grifter Wing?
Baud
And then there’s Baud!
Seanly
Give me anyone under 60 and in the first 3 categories as our Democratic Party Presidential candidate and I would be a very happy man.
But yes, I am reminded of a test we did in my Freshman pysch seminar. The professor knew our birthdays and handed out Zodiac profiles for each of us. We had a discussion of how well each fit – most folks said it fit pretty well. Then he said that he’d given us one for the person next to us.
Basically, what Poster #1 sez.
The Dangerman
So, I’m a Guard (New or Old is open for debate).
Where’s my coffee (read: fuck these time changes)?
Juju
Is Marion 5 the group with that guy who has the tattoos on his torso that make him look like a human ouji board?
Baud
BTW, anyone who doesn’t care at all about electability is a detriment to our success.
That’s more a critique of the descriptions than the people who are classified under them.
eclare
@Juju: Yes
debbie
@PaulWartenberg:
That right there is disqualification.
Seanly
To clarify, I would vote for the Democratic Party candidate even if older than 60. Just that I think we need to move on from the god damn Boomers (and older). They’ve had their time, fucked the pooch (aka destroyed the planet), and time for loser Gen X to take the reins.
Not that anyone gives a crap about my clarification…
MattF
I guess it’s interesting. But i’m concerned about the ‘Democrats In Disarray’ meme that the RW media are deeply invested in spreading. Just for that reason, one should be careful about hair-splitting and making lists of issues to divide Dem groups.
Juju
@eclare: thanks and his torso is a bit scary. Also Sanders and Biden are too old.
schrodingers_cat
This classification scheme is splitting hairs. And is of no use whatsoever.
Al Z.
Very appropriate since Monday is Wing Nite at Shifty’s.
Patricia Kayden
Trump’s budget is horrific.
https://twitter.com/RedTRaccoon/status/1105128952618717184
Where are the Republican deficit hawks?
trollhattan
@satby:
IIUC Wilmer wants party to join him. Otherwise he’ll yell at them. Come to think of it, he’ll yell at them anyway.
“Unfai-uh!!!”
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
It would be very difficult to categorize the Rethuglicans, other than to put them all under the label of “Lunatic Fringe.”
trollhattan
@Patricia Kayden:
“Who?” They are deficit owls now. “Hoooo.”
Betty Cracker
I don’t despise Bernie nearly as much as some of y’all do, but if he refuses to release his tax returns by April 15, he needs to get the fuck out of the primary. If Democrats are going to hold Trump’s crooked, corrupt ass to the fire over his tax returns, we can’t have a Democratic Party primary candidate who refuses to release his own. THAT’S disqualifying, IMO.
Brachiator
@trollhattan:
Good one. The Republicans have thrown out any pretense of knowing anything about or caring about the economy or finance. They simply do what Trump wants.
Funny, it seems only yesterday when some conservative pundits were wondering whether Trump was really a moderate in sheep’s clothing who would betray the mighty Republican Party. Today, the GOP are sheep in thrall to their Orange Shepherd.
Al Z.
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah I was expecting a bit more of a data driven analysis from FiveThirtyEight. Maybe using a multivariate analysis like cluster analysis that would identify actually end member points along a policy matrix. This is just an opinion piece.
PJ
This is no different from saying: here are some prominent Democratic politicians arranged from left to right.
A more interesting breakdown would be to examine where politicians stand on major problems that are facing us now (in no particular order): income inequality, tax policy, healthcare, voting rights, civil rights, labor rights, police brutality, media (including internet) consolidation and manipulation, climate change, natural resources policy, immigration, military spending and readiness, foreign trade, and, not least, foreign policy, which will have to be reconstructed after Trump and about which I have not heard anything from any Presidential candidate.
JGabriel
@Patricia Kayden:
They hibernate during Republican presidential administrations.
Barbara
@Betty Cracker: Agreed. The fact that he is so coy about his taxes is ridiculous. Every nominee releases their returns and he has had more than three years to figure out how to deal with this. I will say, I would not really want to release my taxes for the wider world to see, but then, I am not running for anything. I continue to believe that his concerns relate more to the political liability of using dodgy deductions than tax violations or evidence of other criminal activity (like showing lower valuations for tax purposes than you show for insurance purposes), but he needs to get over it. If he thinks that people will view him less favorably because of his tax returns, well, you know, that’s WHY they should be released.
Gin & Tonic
@Al Z.: Who’d go eat (much less drink) at a place called Shifty’s? I still remember (barely) a night at a place called Speedy’s. Never again.
kindness
Democrats do have a significantly more diverse party than Republicans. It is one of the things that makes us stronger, not weaker. That is until the purity ponies start making their demands.
For myself, I’m tired of reading about Democrats in Disarray in the WaPo when Democrats are doing a great job of voting as a block properly.
Gin & Tonic
@Patricia Kayden:
They hibernate until a Democrat takes office.
Al Z.
@Gin & Tonic: One of the best dive bars in Central NY I’ll have you know: http://www.shiftysbar.com/shiftysbar/Home.html
schrodingers_cat
@debbie: The lunatic is no longer the fringe, its the whole cloth.
Amir Khalid
@Patricia Kayden:
Republican deficit hawks come out and screech only when a Democrat is in charge.
Gin & Tonic
Damn you JGabriel.
rikyrah
Miss Bianca,
I am so sorry to hear about Luna???
Sending you (((Hugs)))???
satby
@Al Z.: and like most opinion pieces pretty much out of the writers ass.
@PaulWartenberg: I was being sarcastic, he’s not ever going to join the Democratic Party for longer than it takes to ratfuck the election. And @Betty Cracker: what Betty says too about the tax returns.
rikyrah
I just ordered this book.
For our ‘ class is more important’ folks….here’s a review of the book.
‘The Original Black Elite’: A portrait of the first generation to win freedom
Wendi C. Thomas
Chicago Tribune
Baud
OT. Warren must read Balloon Juice because she addressed my question.
rikyrah
@JGabriel:
truth.
gospel truth
JGabriel
@Betty Cracker:
Given the ubiquity of people over a certain income level, and/or their tax preparers, who request filing extensions, I’m willing to cut him a little more slack – till, say, October or November 15.
Ultimately though, it doesn’t make that much difference to me since, this time around, I won’t be voting for Sanders in the primaries anyway. He’s too old, and there are better candidates with more fleshed policy proposals and bona fides – like Warren.
Wapiti
The “moderate” wing is anti-establishment? That doesn’t make any sense.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
I wouldn’t say that I despise Bernie as much as I really, really, really, really hate him. :)
But yeah, the SOB needs to release his goddam tax returns.
Hell, I still don’t quite get how he can run as a Democrat when he ain’t one.
rikyrah
@satby:
Ask those probing questions….why don’t you…
mrmoshpotato
@Betty Cracker: Why not just say he needs to get the fuck out now and be ahead of it by over a month?
?
I hear our country has many nice forests he could fuck off to to take up knitting. Acres to commune with birds that don’t care about policy details.
Gin & Tonic
@Al Z.: Thanks, but NFW I’m clicking on that link.
Betty Cracker
@Barbara: I think it’s because the 2016 campaign made him a millionaire, and that’s off-brand. The coyness about it is absurd. He pulled that same shit last time around. Perez needs to set a date, and why not April 15th since that’s the deadline for the rest of us? Give them up or GTFO.
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
I have no problem with this. …it’s absolutely disqualifying.
JGabriel
@Gin & Tonic:
For what? What did I do this time?
Baud
@JGabriel:
Fixed
Nicole
@Baud:
I see what you did there. Or rather, I hear it. EARWORM.
satby
@JGabriel: he has the ability to release past returns by 4/15 and could release the latest year a bit further out. He’s had 3 years during which he made it obvious he intended to run again. He thinks his zombie army of bros will deflect the question for him and he can punt the question until he’s eliminated again. He’s only in it for more sweet ca$h.
eclare
@satby: Truth
mrmoshpotato
@Gin & Tonic: Why? You think the link is shifty?
Unhand me! I can see myself out.
Gin & Tonic
@JGabriel: Beat me to the “hibernating”. I don’t edit my comments now because editing screws up my nym.
chris
this should help.
Dorothy A. Winsor
It looks like the D debates start in June. He needs to release his taxes by the to participate.
tobie
@Betty Cracker: It would be throwing a (good) gauntlet down for Perez to say that all declared Democratic candidates need to release their taxes by a certain date. I think he should also specify that 10 years of returns are required and that they should be the complete filing, not just the top two pages.
Ruckus
@debbie:
BS has many other disqualifications. The first and foremost is that he isn’t and never has been a democrat, no matter what he says in his publicity bullshit. The second is that he has no actual policy positions, just semi fancy words that add up to mean nothing. The third is that he has no idea how to do the actual work, and we have way too much current proof how well that works. The fourth is that he’s way to old to do the work, this job requires a high level of stamina and cognisant thought and he doesn’t have that now and I’m not sure he ever did.
That’s enough actual current reasons to disqualify him, his past performance adds another layer of disqualifications.
BC in Illinois
@Seanly:
It is one of the lesser-known aspects of the Green New Deal, that it includes a 10-year plan to phase out all Baby Boomers. That’s ambitious, but attainable.
BC in Illinois
( born during the Truman Administration )
Al Z.
@BC in Illinois: The Soylent Green New Deal!
Ruckus
@Seanly:
Actually this early boomer does.
Age is subjective but it is also a disqualifier at some point. That point is different for everyone from both sides of the question. But it is a major disqualifier for someone who just wants not to be old. BS wants to live forever and fuck him for that. He’s shown no reason we should give him that ability, he’s done nothing to be worth remembering in the positive and be worth that position.
Brachiator
@rikyrah:
Hmm. The Tribune site seems to have a pay wall now. Oh, well.
Was just going to toss in that this was not the first generation to win freedom. There were always free people of color in America.
An interesting read is “We Were Always Free: The Maddens of Culpeper County, Virginia: A 200-Year Family History,” by T Madden.
Might be on Amazon, but also may officially be out of print, but available at some libraries.
Frankensteinbeck
This is bullshit. The legislators who are very liberal both economically and on civil rights are establishment-curious. They’re learning the Democratic Party mainstream and leadership leans in their direction policy-wise. You know who are anti-establishment? The Democrats and Independents who are economically far left and ‘eh’ on civil rights. The idea that being more economically liberal links to being more civil rights liberal is the delusion of the ignorant or willfully ignorant.
debbie
@Baud:
Best be careful who you call a troll in the future! ;)
mrmoshpotato
@BC in Illinois: Hmmmm….I like my Boomer parents, and they both have more than 10 years left on their warranties.
OTOH, WWII-style mobilization to invade, occupy, and overthrow the sun.
Global warming solved! What could go wrong?
Brachiator
@Al Z.:
Now there’s a movie I would like to see!
jc
Couldn’t we narrow it down to three sub-groups? We don’t want to confuse the super-duper vegan cis progressives from the splitters.
raven
@rikyrah: American Beach: A Saga of Race, Wealth, and Memory
I was lucky enough to meet MaVynee before she passed away.
rikyrah
???
Thread on fabricated right-wing #GreenNewDeal talking points. https://t.co/wX9ZG0zl7s
— Peter Daou (@peterdaou) March 11, 2019
debbie
@BC in Illinois:
Did you ever see the movie, “Wild in the Streets”? “Off them when they turn 30!” At the time, I thought 30 was eons away…
VeniceRiley
I’d have a little more respect for Wilmer if he would be honest. he promised the returns and has been lying about why he has not produced them ever since. It’s been what now? 3 years? I see this as more than about his taxes – It is one of Bernie’s main character flaws.
I would have respected him more if he just told everyone to f off and he’s not going to release them, because otherwise it puts me (the voter) in the position of having to nag his basic a** about such an easily fulfilled promise. I hate being put in the nag position. It’s a dominance play and I effin hate it!
What other, more difficult things has he promised, and how much harder it will be to extract results from a President Grandpa Simpson?
Brachiator
@Baud:
This is just dumb. I have no idea what Warren is trying to accomplish.
The tech industry may be entering a slump as the smartphone market slows, and tablets and PCs continue to slump (relatively speaking). Companies are already scrambling to try to come up with the next new thing.
This is double dumb.
rikyrah
@Brachiator:
I know that there have always been free Blacks here, and I do find their stories fascinating. Thanks for the tip
rikyrah
The Democratic Convention will be in Milwaukee in 2020.
oatler.
The whole list reads like a Mad Magazine article, but with no Mort Drucker drawings.
BC in Illinois
@debbie:
I remember hearing about “Wild in the Streets” (1968), but I never saw it.
I remember when the rule of “don’t trust anybody over 30” was new.
I later had to modify the rule to “don’t trust anybody 30 years older than you.”
A an up-and-coming Septuagenarian, I am happy to approach 2020 with a policy of not voting for anyone older than I am.
( Fortunately, I am older than Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris. )
barbequebob
@Baud: Yes, it’s a pity there are still so many people who help elect regressive Republicans because the Democrat is not progressive enough. These attitudes and behaviors only serve to reverse progress.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: Warren is pretty clear about what she’s trying to accomplish. Here’s a direct quote from the Vox article Baud referenced above:
I don’t know if her approach is the right one, tbh, but the issue she proposes to address isn’t trivial.
raven
Watch out, it’s that scumbag Brickovenbill.
Frankensteinbeck
@BC in Illinois:
Anyone under 30 would be insane to trust me. My god, I’m an author! We’re not DECENT people.
Lapassionara
@chris: WTF!
WhatsMyNym
@Brachiator:
I agree with you. You just have to look at Apple’s past history of business cycles (and remember what happened to Nokia & Motorola) to wonder if it will matter in 2 years time.
Also, Amazon may be at a peak in a business cycle.
debbie
@Lapassionara:
If that doesn’t hurt his standing with his base, then nothing will.
wkwv
Six wings, hmmm…I know! A dragonfly with a hitchhiker. ( ;>)
bemused
@raven:
A blast from the past on BJ. Whatever happened to brickoven?
raven
@bemused:barbequebob
WhatsMyNym
@Betty Cracker:
She’s overlooking that even brick & mortar stores do this. They bring out store brand products that compete directly with better selling products in their stores. And many companies are offering open marketplaces on their websites; Walmart, Newegg, Sears, etc, etc…it’s not limited to Amazon.
glory b
@Betty Cracker: I’ve noticed that he now rails against Billionaires, not millionaires and billionaires, so yeah.
rikyrah
FOR THE BLEACHER SEATS ??
Propane Jane™ (@docrocktex26) Tweeted:
Identity politics weren’t an issue until everyone who isn’t a straight White man/woman started demanding (and winning) a seat at the table and the power/privilege to make policy. https://twitter.com/docrocktex26/status/1104823623368486915?s=17
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
YESS!!!!
schrodingers_cat
@WhatsMyNym: Its not just tech grocery stores do it too!
rikyrah
Jon Favreau (@jonfavs) Tweeted:
From a pure political perspective, this is – by far – the most radical, unpopular proposal that any 2020 candidate had put forward thus far.
Every Democrat should be talking about this every day. Start running the ads now and don’t stop until Election Day. https://t.co/OfHHQHQf2a https://twitter.com/jonfavs/status/1105145416604016650?s=17
Betty Cracker
@raven: I don’t think so.
@WhatsMyNym: Fair point about store brand products, but do any of the brick-and-mortar outlets own as large a chunk of their category as Amazon does? Also, when Walmart is peddling “Great Value” brand butter, they can’t bury competing products in the dairy case as effectively as Amazon hides its competitors’ merch in the search pane.
For online services like reviews, there’s the problem of Google burying links to showcase its own review system, which is pretty crappy.
It’s a complicated issue, and the quote I highlighted above only captures a tiny part of what Warren is trying to address, which includes entities like Facebook buying up apps that threaten its market at such a clip that venture capitalists shy away from investing in startups that will be swallowed and consumers don’t benefit from new innovation.
I’m sure there’s plenty to criticize about Warren’s proposal, but at least she’s talking about real problems in a substantive way.
rikyrah
Jonathan Capehart (@CapehartJ) Tweeted:
Txt from my mom: Who is O’Roke and what has he done to make him a rockstar for the Dems
#goodquestion https://twitter.com/CapehartJ/status/1105137718621814784?s=17
Kay
@raven:
Hah! Good catch. Brick oven bill is a birther. I just want that remembered.
Ruviana
To Miss Bianca: Like Immanentize I’ve been thinking endlessly of Luna. I am so sorry that her story ended this way but I am relieved that you know the outcome, however sad. Some of the things one imagines can be awful and now you know. I am more sorry than I can say.
rikyrah
Yes .
Walk and chew gum at the same time
Brian Schatz (@brianschatz) Tweeted:
I get that our candidates are focusing on telling their own stories and talking about what they will do if they win. That’s smart. But nothing is preventing the rest of us from pointing out that the President just proposed massive cuts to Medicare. https://twitter.com/brianschatz/status/1105157707701444608?s=17
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
I was being rhetorical. I see what she is doing. It’s stupid.
She’s done. Trump is a grifter and a fool, but he pretends to want to help America’s businesses. Warner has gone from a strong consumer and regulatory advocate to a busy body who wants to micro-manage companies to no clear benefit.
Voters are simple. They want simple answers. Warren is proposing solutions where voters don’t see a clear problem or something that is going to benefit them.
tobie
@Betty Cracker: I think the way that brick-and-mortar operations use their stores and brands to wipe out competition is by selling below cost, as Amazon does, to get customers hooked. Then they start listing items on their website (at the back of the list) but don’t stock them in the shop. How we get past the consolidation of all retail operations in the US–physical or virtual–is beyond me. Mr. tobie was complaining yesterday, in another context, that we break up Ma Belle only to be stuck with a choice of Verizon or ATT if we want a cell phone that has a reasonably broad network nationally. I’m not sure how to respond to this phenomenon in a way that doesn’t sound like I’m longing for the days of the country store.
guachi
Warren is promoting solutions to things that most of us don’t see as major problems.
Or even minor problems.
ruemara
Well, it’s an article. If it was on paper, it would be useful as birdcage lining.
@rikyrah: lol, be white, male, young and good looking. Appeal to white people in a purplish state to the point of almost winning. “Giving up really quickly.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
A Democrat trying to help venture capitalists. Very interesting.
Amir Khalid
@Brachiator:
This early in the race, it’s hard to say for certain that a particular candidate is already shot themselves in the foot by having said the wrong thing. I don’t see anything wrong with Warren talking about how companies that operate marketplaces that other businesses depend on (as Apple and Amazon do) should be regulated.
Mandalay
I notice Kirsten “#metoo” Gillibrand does not appear in the list of prominent Democrats in the bullet list in the OP. Perhaps the author was already aware that her campaign is dumpster bound after this doozy of a revelation:
This is from the brutal letter that was sent to Gillibrand last August:
It’s surely over for Gillibrand after this. Trump and her Democratic rivals can ram that letter down her throat every time she goes into #metoo mode, and she won’t have a leg to stand on.
hilts
@debbie: @Ruckus:
Bernie Sanders’ 1st disqualification for me is his age and that goes for Joe Biden as well. The notion of anyone taking office as President at 77 years old is beyond batshit insane. I’m fed up with people glossing over the age question for these guys. Besides releasing his tax returns, Sanders should release a minimum of 25 years of medical records and the same should apply to Biden as well.
Brachiator
@Amir Khalid:
You make a good point. And I don’t have any favorite candidate and will support whoever gets the nomination.
However, I think that right now, the fumbling of a number of candidates is handing re-election to Trump. I guess I see how Warren is trying to expand her consumer focus. But nobody really gives a shit about Apple and Amazon or how they operate in the marketplace, with the exception of how Amazon treats its employees.
Again, Trump’s shit is phony, but simple. He promises more jobs and a pro-America trade policy. He also pushes the GOP lies that its only excesssive federal regulation that stifles competition. Warren’s proposals feed into that narrative.
Tazj
@Ruviana: Oh no! I’ve been looking for news, when I can.I’m so sorry for Bianca.
chris
@hilts: In my ideal world, a president should be young enough to see the effects of some of his policies. My cutoff would be 60 at most.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator:@Betty Cracker: I am not a corporate lawyer or a securities lawyer but wouldn’t it make much more sense to spin off different divisions as separate companies. Like for example YouTube could be spun off from Google, Instagram from Facebook and so on.
MisterForkbeard
@rikyrah: I’m already seeing Kamala Harris’ campaign hitting him about it on Facebook. She’s also noting that he’s doing this while asking for another 8+ billion for his wall. The trolls are already attacking for conflating $8b for the wall with ~$850b in health care cuts.
@Kay: Wait, he’s back? I didn’t see him.
@hilts: If Bernie’s the nominee I’ll vote for him. My wife too, though she’s already barred me from ever donating to his campaign (even in the general) because of some things he’s said about women and racists. My big disqualifier with him is that he’s not leading a movement, he’s attacking his allies and trying to gain personally from that attack. The Democrats have been FAR more effective than him in bringing change, and he’s just shitting all over them.
The age is also important, as is his inability to treat women’s or minority issues seriously. As is his apparent complete lack of a plan on how to do any of the things he proposes.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: Warren is still a strong consumer and regulatory advocate — see the Accountable Capitalism Act and the Anti-Corruption and Public Integrity Act as two recent examples.
Maybe she’s taking the wrong approach to address the problems big tech creates (I honestly do not know), but she does outline a clear benefit — a more level playing field for startups and more innovative products and services as well as more privacy protections for consumers.
Possibly this issue won’t resonate with voters, but it’s not “dumb” or “stupid.” These are real problems. IMO, it’s a positive development that someone is talking about them.
@tobie: Good point about selling at a loss to drive competitors out as a strategy. Agree that it’s a thorny issue in both the digital and physical space.
@schrodingers_cat: I’m pretty sure that’s what Warren is proposing.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Brachiator:
Yeah, and how’s that been working out?
MisterForkbeard
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: His supporters STILL believe the wall is necessary and that Trump is doing a great job, so… it’s working out pretty well for Trump, actually.
Just really badly for the rest of us.
chopper
@raven:
oh FFS, that fucker? what is it, throwback week? bring back BIRDZILLA, i say.
Aleta
To me this shows someone willing to barter for/purchase coverage in H Hewitt’s columns. (Not linking. He’s at WaPo.)
Kent
These left to right spectrum rankings are really rather absurd. It would be more accurate to list the top 10 or so Dem agenda items and then rank candidates’ interest or emphasis on each one. They are not necessarily linked.
Climate Change
Other environmental issues (endangered species, water quality etc.)
Education
Health Care
Social Security
Social Justice & Criminal Justice (BLM etc.)
Working class, wages, unions etc.
Election reform
Corporate reform, anti-trust (Elizabeth Warren stuff)
A candidate might be strongly left on climate and environmental issues but corporatist when it comes to wall street and education (charter schools).
Or a candidate might be very left on union and worker issues but not really give a shit about the environment.
Reality is a lot more complex than just a left-right spectrum
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: She’s not trying to “help venture capitalists” — she’s noting a market condition that indicates a tougher climate for startups.
Brachiator
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Actually, it’s been working out pretty well. People buy Trump’s bullshit. The economy has been adding jobs, even though you really can’t give Trump credit for this. But he is in office and benefits anyway. His trade policy is kinda dumb. But he is president and gets to push it. I haven’t seen what the Democrats offer on trade policy yet.
ETA: Trump is even benefiting somewhat with the BREXIT confusion. Everyone can promise unicorns and puppies after BREXIT is resolved. But we ain’t there yet, nor can anyone really predict the consequences.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@schrodingers_cat: …iMessage and Facetime from Apple.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Why? Who cares?
@Betty Cracker:
I see venture capitalists as a lot of greedy bastards who play with money. What’s it to me if they flail? And I don’t see any clear connection between breaking up existing companies and creating an environment for start ups.
eemom
@Aleta:
Moulton? Isn’t that the asshole who publicly stomped his own dick three or four times while trying to torpedo Pelosi?
What spectacular drek, even for the WaPo.
MomSense
@Juju:
Maroon 5
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator:
Again, she’s not trying to help venture capitalists. They aren’t the ones who are flailing.
You might want to learn more about what Warren is proposing before criticizing it, then. Seriously, damn.
WaterGirl
@Baud:
Does that even make sense? This seems totally arbitrary to me. Breaking the App Store apart from the apple platform seems like really small potatoes – nothing like the big stuff she wants to break up.
Maybe someone can explain it to me.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I am curious why are the conservative Dems in the party since they seem to have so little in common with the rest of the party on policy. Are they simply anti-poisoned Koolaid drinking and won’t join in the rest of the right’s mass suicide?
hilts
@MisterForkbeard:
I’ll vote for any Democrat over Trump, but I hope enough people have the good sense to realize that a 77 year old is too dam big a risk.
You have the coolest screen name on this thread.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@hilts: People over 70 are especially an issue since we’d prefer them to be there for the next 8 years
ruemara
@WaterGirl: It does mystify me because how does Apple dominate a market through the Apple Store?
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
I understand what Warren is proposing. I don’t see a serious problem being addressed, nor do I see a “solution” that produces anything significant or beneficial, and certainly not anything that the average voter cares about.
I don’t even see anything that sounds good on paper.
For what’s it’s worth, there are a couple of longish analyses of Warren’s proposals that I am going to try to go through later this evening. Maybe I will see something new.
Mart
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Goes to show what a great job Nancy Smash does.
WaterGirl
@ruemara: Right! They are dominating their own market. This is a dumb move on Warren’s part.
hilts
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I agree 100% with your sentiments.
I hope, but don’t expect, the media to push Sanders and Biden to release an unprecedented amount of medical records because they’re asking voters to take a big fucking risk by supporting a candidate so old.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
I’m with you. I don’t think that will solve much of anything.
debbie
@hilts:
And no clown doctor from Lennox Hill!
barbequebob
@raven:
Sorry, I’m not Brick Oven Bill. I’m just a lurker who comments on rare occasions.
My name may have alliterative qualities similar to BOB but that is just coincidence.
J R in WV
@Ruckus:
To shorten and organize Ruckus’s excellent resume problems for Senator Sanders::
Also, to add my own items to Sen Sanders resume of problem issues:
[5] Russian stooge for the past 20 years, a Soviet stooge before that.
[6] Misogynist bastard, allows sexual harassment/abuse among his campaign staff.
[7] Mean-spirited prick, just listen to him!!
Won’t vote for him, under any circumstances. If necessary, I will write in someone I respect, like Beto, or Sen Warren.
Betty Cracker
@barbequebob: FWIW, I believe you. For obscure reasons that are irrelevant to this conversation, your nym is memorable to me, and I know you’ve been commenting occasionally for a few years and have never said anything offensive or trollish that I saw — quite the opposite of the brick oven dude. I hope unfounded accusations of trolling won’t prevent you from commenting in the future.
J R in WV
@Brachiator:
You make it very clear you don’t regard corporate monopoly as an economic problem. So, take this concept to its logical end: one giant corporation owns all the grocery stores, all the corporate farms, agribusiness in general.
How much will your monthly food cost you?
If one corporation owns all the networking, how much will your internet connection cost you?
Are you also anti-union? If there was one employer in your state, and no unions were legal, how much money would you earn a week? How about with no minimum wage?
Your complete lack of knowledge of economic history is really showing here. I use Amazon some, but I am also aware of their monopoly power, and I distrust them on that account. The only way to control that monopoly power is via anti-trust regulations that address newly discovered monopoly power of new kinds of business based on new technologies. Like Amazon, Apple, MS, etc.
Back in the day, IBM was controlled to a limited way by anti-trust rules. But the Republicans, pro-business in all ways, have broken the trust controls, the NLRB, intended to prevent companies from breaking unions, the FCC, intended to limit the control of big business over communications via TV, the FEC, intended to control political contributions, etc, etc.
But you are fine with all the Republican work intended to break government regulation to protect us from big business? Stupid! You might as well work to re-elect Trump!!
J R in WV
@ruemara:
Because no one can sell a program to run on Apple devices except via the Apple Store. Apple devices are half of all the smart phones there are, roughly, and Google’s Android based Play Store is the other half of the smart phone market. Apple has total control over the market for software to run on their platform.
Just as Amazon has total control over sales on their platform. Just as IBM once owned nearly 100% of the business software market in the mainframe era, which began ending around 1985. Just as Standard Oil once owned all of the petroleum business in the US, before their monopoly was broken up by anti-trust regulation, yes by the government.
Imagine how much fuel would cost if there was only one source for fuel~!!!~
Imagine how much the medication to keep you alive will cost if there’s only one source for that medication~!!!~ Oh, wait — we don’t have to imagine, Insulin costs hundreds of dollars a month to keep diabetics alive ~!!!~
Brachiator
@J R in WV:
If only there were non-Apple smartphones.
If only there were other online or brick and mortar retailers.
Thank heavens IBM was broken up in 1986.
Non-issues. Non-problems.
ETA: An EU commission, citing all the anti-trust rules and history, prevented a merger of German and French rail businesses. The companies reasonably protested, noting that neither company alone could compete with a huge Chinese company. (‘This will only help China’: France furious after EU derails train-merger)
You cannot apply 19th century thinking to 21st century problems.
Brachiator
@J R in WV:
No. Sanders bloviates about Big Banks, with no clear solution to clearly stated problems.
“Big Tech” is not the same thing as clear corporate monopolies. There is still a large degree of fluidity and newly developing tech sectors. Smart watches, smart homes, VR technologies, games, video streaming, 5g broadband and new services that may develop, smart glasses and other devices. Younger people are already moving away from FaceBook and its offshoots.
Apple has to re-invent itself as the smartphone market becomes more mature and PC, tablet and smartphone sales slip or stabilize. Other companies have their own challenges.
No, but unions are in huge decline, and the Democrats ain’t bringing them back anytime soon.
Bite me. And I say this with all due respect.
Nope. Not even.
Ruckus
@hilts:
Probably never see this but I’m not all that much younger than BS or JB and 25 yrs of my medical records would tell you nothing more than the last 8. I’d say the last ten, same as tax records. But even then a ten yr old medical condition, unless it was dementia probably wouldn’t be disqualifying. We’ve had a president in a wheel chair and he did OK for his time. Sure good health is important but it seems 65 to 75 is the time when most big things go wrong in the average old fart’s life.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Agreed on the Apple Store issue.
I’m an Apple customer and all of the approved apps are sold in the Apple Store. I’d bet that a non Apple hardware customer could purchase something there but as far as I’ve seen there isn’t even anything to purchase other than apps that run on an Apple product. There are products that will run on more than one platform that are sold there but really the Apple Store is just where Apple customers shop. And even all Apple updates come out of the store. Breaking it up would be a serious disservice to the already Apple hardware customers.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
I wasn’t trying to run BS down, even though he needs that, I was just giving out an honest resume.
I thank you for filling it out so well and running him over with the truth.