From ABC:
ABC NEWS SPECIAL REPORT: Jeffrey Epstein commits suicide overnight in his jail cell, officials tell @ABC News. https://t.co/Co4vIMzfHW
— ABC News (@ABC) August 10, 2019
Am I the only one who smells a rat?
by Betty Cracker| 259 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads, Assholes
From ABC:
ABC NEWS SPECIAL REPORT: Jeffrey Epstein commits suicide overnight in his jail cell, officials tell @ABC News. https://t.co/Co4vIMzfHW
— ABC News (@ABC) August 10, 2019
Am I the only one who smells a rat?
Comments are closed.
PsiFighter37
Sure seems suspicious. I hope that whatever evidence they found in his house still sees the light of day somehow. That said, I bet Cyrus Vance will be all too happy to bury the case (if he is in charge – to be fair, not sure if this one is his or not).
Miss Bianca
Well, the rat would smell regardless, but no…you’re not the only one.
Off this morning to the funeral of the father of one of our young actors. A guy whose absence will REALLY be missed and lamented, not like Epstein.
Chris
No, you are not. Knew this would happen.
NotMax
Repeating from downstairs.
Unless I’m greatly mistaken, this removes any restrictions on release of evidence. Legally, the dead cannot be defamed.
Legal jackals, please pipe up.
CCL
Please dear deity(ies) forgive me for falling into CT territory, but I want photos of the body.
schrodingers_cat
I smell a gigantic rat, is it an orange one or a Russian one?
LanceThruster
How conveeeeenient.
Heckuva suicide watch there, guys.
Luciamia
Shit and a half!
NotMax
The RWNJs will blame it on video games. //
LanceThruster
Bought his way to a fake death and a new island?
TS (the original)
@NotMax: I would have thought much less information now get released. No trial – no evidence.
@schrodingers_cat: agreed
Mike R
No, sounds fishy as hell. Given that he would never see the outside again it is possible he did it himself. The big question why wasn’t he more closely monitored considering the people who could have been implicated.
Quinerly
I didn’t get thru yesterday’s threads. I am assuming most read those two big Daily Beast pieces yesterday. I think it was Daily Beast. I’ll find and post.
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
As the saying goes: por que no los dos?
Interesting how we were told a week ago that he was on suicide watch. I guess they felt the danger passed after 12 or so hours.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Expect the wingers to flood the Internet with Clinton conspiracy theories.
Jay C
An easily-explainable error regarding the orders for the “suicide watch”.
They obviously interpreted it to mean they should watch him commit suicide…
germy
After his first suicide attempt, I thought he’d be placed on a suicide watch, and denied any possible tools he’d use to kill himself with.
Apparently, they were more comfortable with letting himself finish it, rather than more evidence coming out?
MomSense
This is bullshit. No excuse for this.
Steeplejack
I do wonder why they’re so quick to say suicide. MSNBC did report it as “found dead in his cell” but mentioned suicide later. Usually the authorities are loath to say too much too soon. He could have had a heart attack.
And, if the person involved was totally under your control and was supposedly on suicide watch, I don’t see how immediately trumpeting “Suicide!” helps your case. “We appear to be totally incompetent, but it’s okay because everybody hated the guy anyway.”
MattF
There’s some ‘splainin’ to do. He was undoubtedly under a 24hr suicide watch, but, OTOH, a lot of powerful people wanted him dead. In fact, there was likely a scuffle to be first in line.
Quinerly
@Quinerly: Daily Beast piece from yesterday.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-scandal-butler-for-glenn-and-eva-dubin-says-swedish-teen-told-him-she-was-pressured-for-sex
JPL
@NotMax: @TS (the original): The Miami Herald reporter who broke open this case said his death might invalidate non disclosure agreements.
Another Scott
Remember he apparently tried this around the last week of July. I guess he succeeded yesterday.
I’m not surprised, and I don’t think that anyone else was necessarily involved.
He should have been on suicide watch from the moment he was arrested. This isn’t rocket surgery…
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
Dead men tell no tales.
germy
This is good news for Alan Dershowitz.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: By wingers do you mean the New York Fucking Times?
NotMax
@ TS (the original)
One word: FOIA. You can bet, with impunity, requests are being prepared as we speak.
Quinerly
@Quinerly: Daily Beast piece from yesterday
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-unsealed-documents-name-powerful-men-in-sex-ring?ref=home
A Ghost To Most
I see nothing fishy here, but I could be wrong .
Epstein was a power freak, and had lost all his power, likely permanently. He had nothing to live for.
Quinerly
@Steeplejack: All good points.
B.B.A.
Many years ago I took a class with a professor who has been named in the Epstein papers. He was brilliant, well-respected, a giant in his field, the course was a highlight of my educational career… none of which matters. He was a rapist. I’m ashamed to be one degree of separation from this sickening morass.
Sloane Ranger
@SFAW:
That’s what I was wondering. I’d want to know who took him off it and why, or, if he was still on it, how this happened. There should be a full and public investigation given the circumstances.
I agree with those who say that the evidence will now be quietly buried. Too many powerful people implicated, with too much to lose.
germy
Frankensteinbeck
When a man wants to kill himself, his neighbors (fellow prisoners) want to kill him, and many people in power want him dead, keeping him alive is pretty damn hard.
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax:
True, but the living can be, expect a lot of litigation from them before any releases.
Jeffro
Wow. Completely anticipated and yet weird to see that it actually happened. (Is there a German term for that?)
Pimp and blackmailer to the rich and famous…rapist of dozens if not hundreds of underage girls…going by his own hand is/was far too good for him.
brettvk
@A Ghost To Most: It well may be a straightforward suicide by someone facing life in prison. But we live in a nation awash in conspiracy theory, so the Q heads will take this and run with it. Social media is undoubtedly exploding as I type this.
HalfAssedHomesteader
So thoughtful to commit “suicide” on the weekend when most people tune-out the news.
Peale
@TS (the original): the people who procured girls for him to rape knew what he was doing. So there are still people who need to be brought to justice.
LanceThruster
@germy:
You could add quite a few names to that list, from the Yam-in-Chief to Bill Clinton.
TS (the original)
@JPL:
So we might hear from his victims – we already have and he got a year in jail. Many wealthy powerful people are breathing easier after this.
germy
Spanky
ETA – I see I’m not first to mention it.
And why are non-disclosure statements even valid when they involve felonies?
Citizen_X
Once again, I would like to complain to the writers of this series. First all this suspension-of-disbelief-challenging stuff, and now this cliche to get rid of one troublesome character? Pfft!
ewrunning
Trump is no doubt getting his thumbs ready to pose for another condolence photo.
germy
@Peale: Yes, like Maxwell. She’s the trust fund brat (remember her father tumbling off the yacht?) who was Epstein’s conspirator.
Quinerly
@germy: see those Daily Beast pieces. Gov Bill Richardson was also mentioned.
Jeffro
I guess all eyes now turn to Ms. Maxwell? Is she also in jail and/or on suicide watch?
JMG
Failing to maintain a suicide watch on a prisoner known to be suicidal (against all regulations) is both easy to do and I would think criminally negligent manslaughter at a minimum. Since nobody on earth is going to believe any story the feds tell, this one will go on fo awhile. PS: I would think his victims could still sue his estate.
germy
And it begins:
A Ghost To Most
@brettvk:
It would seem that conspiracy theories are already propagating here.
Occam’s Razor is useful in the absence of further evidence.
Spc
@Mike R: I’m sure he did it willingly; there was no way out this time. What many will wonder though is whether his watch was compromised to make the deed a bit easier.
Aleta
Must be very hard for all the people hoping they’d see their abuser convicted.
NotMax
Have no idea whether anything Epstein related ties into Bohemian Grove. But there certainly have been shady rumors about that gathering of the movers and shakers for many a year.
The Dangerman
Shockingly, his cell just happened to have some leftover polonium in it. What were the chances?
JPL
@Quinerly: Thank you for the articles, since I had not read them.
germy
They reporting that he hanged himself.
Frankensteinbeck
@germy:
Oh, yes. I’ve heard those already. The conservative base’s reaction to Epstein has been that Bill Clinton flew to the island once and Trump kicked Epstein out of his golf course for hitting on a rich patron’s daughter, ergo it is really the Democrats that are in trouble when the pedophile revelations come out.
EDIT – @Aleta:
Damn. I didn’t think of that and it’s an important take. Thank you.
Betty Cracker
@Jeffro: Maxwell hasn’t even been charged, as far as I know, and I don’t understand why not. From the media reports, it looks like she was complicit in a ton of crimes. Hope she has competent private security staff.
randy khan
While every death diminishes us all, some diminish us a lot less than the others, if you know what I mean.
bystander
@LanceThruster: @germy: Wouldn’t it be fun if Dersh had taken the Sydney Carton route and offed himself while Epstein/Darnay escapes justice? Just a fun fantasy!
Gin & Tonic
Great news for Alan Dershowitz. Now he can enjoy his Vineyard vacation.
LanceThruster
@Citizen_X:
You will be pleased to know it will not be renewed for a new season.
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
You sure do hate the FTFTFNYT!
Which is my way of saying: Good one! I wish I had thought of that one first
StringOnAStick
@Betty Cracker: Isn’t Maxwell living someplace other than the US? I’ve been consistently shocked that she isn’t under indictment or extradition request.
Dorothy A. Winsor
The hashtag “ClintonBodyCount” is trending on twitter. Hillary did it!
Steeplejack
@The Dangerman:
“Hey, he asked for a cup of tea. What could go wrong?”
Spanky
@Betty Cracker: The paragraph after the ones I quoted at #42:
Betty Cracker
@germy: Also, he was in the same jail where El Chapo, Ramzi Yusef, et al, have been held in NYC — supposedly an extremely secure prison that is used to holding high-profile inmates. I mean, I can well believe Epstein wanted to kill himself; I hope he hated himself enough to wish for death since he was a loathsome piece of shit. But he was supposedly in solitary confinement and on suicide watch after an earlier attempt. Maybe this was sheer incompetence on the part of the prison, but it sure seems convenient for a lot of powerful people that Epstein is dead.
Baud
@NotMax:
Yes. And even #40 here.
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
No surprise.
JPL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Of course.
dimmsdale
I don’t know why, but I’m tremendously saddened by this. Not that he “deserved” to live, just that I have been watching so many instances of justice denied lately. All his victims deserved justice. All of society, which has been bamboozled by the myth of elites somehow deserving of their “success”, deserves justice in this case. ALL the influential names who gathered under Epstein’s child-rape umbrella deserve justice. Acosta deserves justice. And whatever low-level dunce in the jail who took whatever incentive he/she took to either look the other way or actively assist Epstein’s demise, deserves justice too.
This should NOT be over; the entire fetid nest of child-rapists and enablers that surrounded Epstein ought to be pursued with new vigor; someone ought to kick Cy Vance to the curb and give the case to a hungry prosecutor who still cares about Justice.
I’d hoped the Epstein case would be one in which the elites finally–FINALLY–would face the same justice the rest of us do. Justice denied.
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
Maybe for five minutes. This won’t stop the information from being released.
MattF
@germy: Guards at the jailhouse gates weren’t warned about visitors bringing nooses.
germy
Now there’s no one left to do favors for Dershowitz. (Or maybe the suicide was the last favor)
LanceThruster
@bystander:
Thank you for that. I’m not well read enough to immediately understand the rerference.
https://www.shmoop.com/tale-of-two-cities/sydney-carton.html
brettvk
@A Ghost To Most: It’s the sort of thing where, whatever the “truth” is, it can be obliterated by the thicket of suspicion and disinformation that almost instantly grows up around it. When you can no longer trust the government or media to provide you with truthful information, you are left choosing the conspiracy theory that conforms with your prejudices. We’re turning into post-Soviet Russia. It’s profoundly ironic that we “won” the Cold War with our global enemy only to degenerate within decades into their twin.
HalfAssedHomesteader
Virginia Giuffre better get a food tester and stay off of balconies.
The Moar You Know
He tried once. He knew he was going to be found guilty of offenses that would place him, in the public eye, right underneath Hitler.
So, history and motive.
I don’t need to look any further.
Spanky
You would think that a harvard law perfessor would know that you can’t prove a negative, but I guess not. Can you smell the desperation?
NotMax
One (lesser) question now is who will play Epstein in the cable TV movie*?
More important, who in his right mind would agree to?
*C’mon. Sex and nubile teens. Do ya really think it won’t be announced as in production?
James E Powell
@JMG:
Judgments are paper. Does he have any assets that can be attached?
Quinerly
@JPL: I was surprised how little coverage yesterday. But then again, I took a news break. I would have missed them but for the great news link site: http://www.memeorandum.com.
I check it 2-4 times a day.
germy
@NotMax: Henry Winkler?
Shakti
Per the twitters, exactly ZERO people think he killed himself. It is possible but way too many powerful people wanted him dead.
LanceThruster
@germy:
Heard Chosanistan is a wonderful place to retire for billionaires on the run from the law. If only he had some powerful connections willing to facilitate this.
Oh well, I guess it’s too late now. ;-)
Baud
@The Moar You Know:
We need to look. What we don’t need to do is fall for conspiracy theories not supported by evidence.
Baud
@germy:
Ooh. Good choice.
Kay
@dimmsdale:
Agreed.
Gravenstone
This was clearly allowed to happen, if not actually a murder made to appear as suicide. After his ‘neck injury’ of a week or so ago, he should have been on 24 hour suicide watch.
LanceThruster
@NotMax:
I’m terrified that it will ignore historical accuracy and in the docudrama, Dershowitz *won’t* keep his underwear on.
oldster
The plutocracy heaves a sigh of relief.
And America takes another step towards turning into Putin’s Russia, where the dictator’s enemies die conveniently.
Kay
For this I’m going with the obvious cause is probably true- they fucked up. Corrections personnel all hate their jobs. It’s miserable work.
Gravenstone
@NotMax: It will also put to the test the frequent assertions here that he had a ‘deadman switch’ to dump incriminating information if something happened to him. Guess we’ll all see in the coming days.
Keith P.
@germy: He’s been kissing Trump’s ass pretty solidly for the last couple of years.
bystander
If anybody can establish that Epstein was on to Killary’s kiddie porn pizza parlor operation (crossover “employees”?) then I think we can all assume we know what really happened. If so, she has really stepped up her game since her sloppy Benghazi fiasco.
LanceThruster
@Spanky:
Are you trying to say that a scholar who would write The Case for Israel might play fast and loose with the facts?!?
I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!
Quinerly
When they found him around 6:30, he was in “distress.”
Pronounced dead around 7:30 at the hospital.
MSNBC reporting.
NotMax
@germy
Have to admit first name that popped into the head was Dennis Miller.
rikyrah
Suicide?
Phuck Outta Here ???
gene108
@debbie:
Either the media will find the information so salacious, they can’t but help themselves in publishing every little detail, like the Clinton-Lewinsky affair, or they will find it too obscene or some such, to subject the public to such filthy material.
I think it really depends, if any news bigwigs are caught up in this, and/or what sort of access deals they have with the rich and powerful for news stories.
PaulWartenberg
The part of me that enjoys the occasional conspiracy theory – mostly as entertainment (X-Phile!) because I know half of those things CAN’T really happen the way the nuts claim – is running overdrive right now, and in a serious way.
I haven’t seen anyone else’s comments on this yet, jumping straight to here, but my thoughts are:
1) I thought he was supposed to be on suicide watch and prevented from doing anything like this
2) Every guard and supervisor at that prison needs to undergo financial and communications scrutiny right now. Someone got paid off, someone said something, someone knows…
3) There are arguments that the warrant on Epstein is enforceable even if he dies, meaning that in certain situations his corrupt buddies may have wanted him ALIVE to serve as a scapegoat/hinder the investigation with bad info. Even if *this* is true, there is every likelihood given Epstein’s long career as a pedophile/pimp, he’s seen and learned far too much vile things that someone in his circle fear even greater exposure.
This thing reeks to high heaven. It’s too damned obvious a cover-up to let go.
HalfAssedHomesteader
I think we’re about to get an object lesson in Telling the Big Lie.
donnah
@Betty Cracker:
I find his “suicide” circumstances pretty suspicious. However, I don’t think he hated himself or was ashamed. He’s like Trump in that he has no true sense of shame or any self-loathing. What could have made him commit suicide was cowardice and loss of power.
It’s been stated that he was still under suicide watch, which seems pretty badly handled, since he’s dead. If he was under specific surveillance as part of a suicide watch, there should be video evidence. If not, then what does suicide watch actually entail? No sheets, no shoestrings, no sharp objects?
Maybe the truth will come out, but probably not. Who knows anymore?
Also, good riddance.
B.B.A.
@Kay: It’s the ones who don’t hate their jobs that one worries about.
delk
Will Tucker come back from vacation?
Kay
The victim account that was released yesterday exonerated both Trump and Clinton (as to that victim or the events she witnessed). It doesn’t exclude the possibility that there are others, obviously, but that is what she said.
The entire Right wing has taken that to mean Clinton is guilty and Trump is not.
So IMO with or without the suicide this was already in the category of “there will be no facts, only opinions stated as facts”
LanceThruster
@bystander:
Laura Silsby is certainly grateful for the Clinton’s help.
But that’s none of my business.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Let a thousand conspiracy theories bloom.
catclub
@germy:
That Maxwell? Wow.
bystander
@NotMax: Who will play Epstein? Unfortunately, the natural choice is no longer with us.
debbie
@gene108:
I doubt this reporter will give up making everything public.
germy
David Anderson
I don’t smell a rat. In my late teens, a pedophile was arrested and despite being on a suicide watch at the NH county jail, he managed to kill himself in ninety six hours between arrest and arraignment.
We know Epstein was a control freak, probable sociopath, and loved to lord his superior power over underlings and inferiors. Being arrested and credibly believing that his best outcome was life in solitary for self-protection strips all of that away.
Now is it worth asking if the suicide watch was following protocol? Yes, but given that Epstein had already recently attempted suicide and then documents were getting unsealed that further demolished him and his self-perception and worth, I don’t smell a rat.
debbie
@catclub:
Apples never fall far from the tree, as they say.
JPL
Not that I would want to watch, but I’m curious what will happen to the video tapes taken as evidence from his ny town house.
debbie
@germy:
Did I miss something about an Epstein connection?
germy
NotMax
@Dorothy A. Winsor
“Aliens. It’s always aliens.”
– F. Mulder
Follow the quatloos.
:)
germy
@debbie: Normally he has an opinion about everything and anything that happens. But this morning, they’ve gone officially silent.
Quinerly
And, just like that… The newscycle changes….
Kay
@B.B.A.:
We have one at the local jail who is a real authoritarian enthusiast. In a disturbing way that once led to my having a screaming fight with her over how she treats family members of prisoners, people <em she is paid to serve politely and decently because who the fuck else comes into a jail. I lost my temper. But she doesn’t have prisoner contact. She sits in a little glassed-in command post and abuses people verbally. I think it’s flat-out miserable work for the actual guards.
Baud
@Quinerly:
It was always going to change.
jonas
I thought he was on suicide watch after they suspected he tried to kill himself last week. Shit. Can’t LE do anything right with this guy? WTF?
Rand Careaga
“So do I—and I think he’s got my script!”
Spanky
@debbie: I’m sure the White House is all “Epstein who?” these days, so nobody there will connect the two.
Plus, it’s pretty great weather here in the DC area, so maybe Donnie wants to get 36 holes in.
JPL
@David Anderson: A few years ago in GA a man arrested for raping a murdering a child was on suicide watch and committed suicide. It happens.
Does anyone know where Rudy is though?
Steeplejack
@NotMax:
Younger Elliott Gould would have been perfect. Could almost go with Ron Perlman now.
JPL
@Spanky: The president is in NJ for the next ten days while repairs are being done at the White House.
Spanky
@JPL:
I’m pretty sure he was back in his coffin before sunrise.
germy
@JPL: Is his first lady with him?
catclub
@debbie: actually, road apples never fall far from the horses ass.
NotMax
@Spanky
“36 we’ll give a green light. Not a good day to go out for under 18.”
– White House staff
//
janesays
@The Moar You Know: I think he probably did commit suicide, but I think the fact that he had access to the implements to commit suicide needs to be thoroughly investigated. The conspiracy could be that he was given whatever he used as a noose by a guard who then looked the other way. That’s highly plausible. People on suicide watch aren’t supposed to have access to shoelaces, bedsheets, or anything else that can be used to asphyxiate oneself.
So yeah… I think he most likely really did commit suicide, but I also think he very likely had some help in getting it done.
LanceThruster
What I want to know is, how many times was he shot in the back of the head? Did he craft his gun from a bar of soap?
jonas
@James E Powell:
He’s not some multi-billionaire like he pretended to be, but the list of assets he submitted at his arraignment put his wealth in the many hundreds of millions, including real estate and millions in cash and jewelry in a safe in one of his houses (forget which one — where he also apparently had a fake passport and a bunch of other suspicious shit).
Nobody’s really sure how he made his money, which certainly now adds to the mystery surrounding all of this.
catclub
@David Anderson: maybe so. hannibal the cannibal would never commit suicide, if allowed to testify, he would invent extremely salacious stories about famous people, and tell them at length. plus true ones.
leeleeFL
Really glad that I kept up my dues in the Cynics Society! I might not have as much doubt about Epstein’s Suicide! I smell a hit!
JPL
@germy: Depends on the definition of with.
germy
@David Anderson:
It probably happens all the time.
But I honestly thought high profile cases like Epstein’s were different. The guards, the authorities… they all know they’re under scrutiny by the media and politicians.
I’m not surprised if some local guy decides to end it in his cell. The authorities don’t care.
But when a high profile case like this, especially after a previous suicide attempt, is successful, it raises questions.
LanceThruster
Well… MSNBC is basically covering this as, “Well you know, stuff happens. What are you gonna do?,” with talking heads assuring us that authorities will no doubt get to the bottom of it.
The same authorities in charge of his suicide watch.
Riiiight.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
How weird you would say that, as Henry Winkler is the guest on “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me” at this very minute!
Fair Economist
@Gravenstone:
I’ll remind people that, supposedly, in his earlier half-assed incarceration, Epstein was bribing guards to let him come and go as he wished and even bring in girls (blech). Given the amount of power and money threatened by Epstein’s trial, there are a lot who would be willing to corrupt some guards and if Epstein did it before, I’m sure somebody can pull it off now. Bribing a guard to “accidentally” goof on suicide watch leaves a lot fewer tracks than actually killing him, and I’m inclined to think he was actually suicidal since this was the second attempt.
Cacti
How very…convenient.
Mai Naem mobile
@NotMax: nah they’re blaming it on the Clinton dead list . I heard this when he was injured a few weeks ago. I honestly don’t know what RWNJs will do when Bill and Hillary pass on.
LanceThruster
@Quinerly:
Cui bono, eh?
TS (the original)
@germy: Could be. I doubt that the 3rd one is with him
germy
@Mai Naem mobile: They’ll call it a suicide pact.
Quinerly
Actually the first 30 minutes of Joy Reid’s MSNBC’s show has been quite good.
(I almost fed a troll)
Kay
We need the co-conspirators that Acosta immunized. I just hope we don’t get a million lame excuses about how no one can be prosecuted because it’s too hard and the prosecution might lose. They have a credibility crisis. They have to recognize this as a problem.
MagdaInBlack
@janesays:
Perhaps he received some “friendly advice” that this might be a good idea.
germy
– Ambrose Bierce, Devil’s Dictionary
Spanky
@MagdaInBlack: “Take the rope, leave the cannoli.”
Kay
It’s very frustrating and sad to me because they had him. They had him years ago. In Florida. And they let him go.
randy khan
@The Moar You Know:
Occam’s Razor. People who really want to kill themselves generally find a way to do it. And “suicide watch” does not mean there’s someone outside your cell at all times – there aren’t enough guards to do that.
MagdaInBlack
@Spanky:
Exactly ! ?
Quinerly
OT
Trump is displeased with his stenographer.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-tweet-maggie-haberman-dayton-el-paso-hospital-visit
germy
@randy khan: I’m curious what he found to hang himself with.
Prison authorities always boast that what they do is Science. No bedsheets or shoelaces, etc. for suicidal inmates. I could understand if he managed to find some surface to slash his wrists with. But he hanged himself.
(or “hung himself” as the professional journalists are saying)
randy khan
@germy:
He had clothes. You probably can make a serviceable noose from a pair of pants, and it doesn’t have to be perfect.
B.B.A.
Vince Foster is trending on Twitter… really?
I’m no fan of the Clintons, I think the party should’ve thrown them under the bus 20 years ago… but really? Vince frickin’ Foster?
Aleta
Requesting permission to speak Conspiracy:
May 2018 obit in Palm Beach Post:
“Joseph Recarey, a former Palm Beach detective … died Friday, May 25, 2018, after a brief illness. He was 50.”
Very good interview with him (which was not published until Dec 2018 in Seattle Times) about his work against Epstein and in identifying and interviewing victims; and about how the plea happened. (He speaks about Krischer and (lead state prosecutor on the case) Assistant State Attorney Lanna Belohlavek) in this interview.) Includes what he said about his interactions with Dershowitz and some info on that from the Herald. Also some info about Starr.
He and his partner began speaking to the media about the case, earlier in 2018.
Quotes from the police report about his work were linked in 2006 in Smoking Gun.
Cacti
@germy:
Could have used his jailhouse clothing.
trollhattan
Speaking of Dersh, can anybody account for OJ’s whereabouts last night. Also, has the prison perhaps recently hired an old, old Russian masseuse?
Favors owed and such.
lurker dean
not to go all Q but yup..
Doug R
@NotMax:
Rob Lowe.
trollhattan
@germy:
Hung jury.
That’s one trial avoided by some very lucky possible jurors. No amount of brain bleach….
Another Scott
Twitter:
Not all, of course, but too many.
Cheers,
Scott.
JPL
@Quinerly: sad
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@B.B.A.:
You may remember how well that worked for Al Gore, when he tried it 19 years ago…
Chyron HR
If only the massive Republican investigation into Bill Clinton’s sex life hadn’t completely overlooked his child molestation. Seems like a pretty big thing for Ken Starr to miss, but oh well!
Quinerly
@JPL: I know. I have heard a president has a lot to deal with. Sad he has to have this additional worry. ?
Bill Arnold
@A Ghost To Most:
Occam’s Razor suggests that it is a very plausible hypothesis that one of the many (other) rich pedophiles that Epstein had dirt on arranged to have him dead. Either allowed suicide (e.g. bribes or threats or both) or made to look like suicide, perhaps with cameras inexplicably not recording if there were cameras.
This is not a normal case. Many rich and powerful (and possibly psychopathic) pedophiles are involved.
Mike in NC
Still in Bergen, Norway but the weather turned sunny and delightful. People went ashore to boost the local economy. We spent all of our Pounds before leaving the UK and I donated my last Euro coins to a local charity. Wife bought a bunch of stuff to give to her friends.
Already thinking about our next cruise in a couple of years: Barcelona to Venice sounds very appealing.
Doug R
@delk:
That’s Tucker Van Johnson, or Confessions of a Dangerous Mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQ72f-jjx4
Fleeting Expletive
In addition to all the rest of the insanity, this is one hell of a distraction from the El Paso and Dayton racist murderers and their WH cheerleader/ Nothing at all to see here, folks.
B.B.A.
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Passing the ACA lost us Congress for almost a decade, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have passed it.
Quinerly
MSNBC reporting that there is nowhere to hang yourself in a cell. Says high profile people watched. For example, guards check on Bill Cosby every 15 mins. Who else is listening to Joy Reid?
SFAW
@germy:
That goes a long way toward explaining why “journalism” today is so fucked up.
SRW1
Epstein most likely died through witchcraft. We always knew nothing was gonna stop Hillary.
Bill Arnold
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
That’s just so weird. Bill Clinton had (has?) his kinks but as far as we know, they involve adult females.
germy
off topic, but
https://screenrant.com/marvel-armie-hammer-ike-perlmutter-trump/
Frankensteinbeck
@Bill Arnold:
Damn near every explanation is plausible. Suicide, murder by cell mate, suicide with guards not bothering to stop him, suicide with guards not bothering to stop him because they were bribed, assassination – none of them seem farfetched in a situation like this, so who knows?
Dmbeaster
@Baud: Wingers, Russian bots; who can tell the difference?
Baud
@Bill Arnold:
Why is that weird? It should be expected by now.
Another Scott
@Bill Arnold: Um, wouldn’t it (hypothetically) make more sense to try to keep one’s head down, have an excellent lawyer on retainer, be prepared to battle in the courts for years, rather than try to (help) kill him? Murder conspiracies have many moving parts and many, many ways of going wrong. (E.g. your average billionaire child rapist isn’t going to know Epstein’s guards, or someone who knows the guards, especially on short notice…) Why risk additional legal jeopardy? And why not assume that someone else would be working on the dirty deed? (“Why would I kill him, Rowland. I thought you were going to kill him?”)
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
@Frankensteinbeck: I think he killed himself. The thought of life in prison (especially after his life of luxury) was unacceptable to him.
janesays
@Bill Arnold: Clinton apparently had some ties to Epstein in the 1990s and early 2000s. Epstein visited the White House several times in the 1990s, and was at a fundraising dinner with Clinton in 1995. In the early 2000s, Clinton flew on Epstein’s private jet at least 4 times (according to Clinton’s own press secretary at the time), and possibly as many as 27 times.
Coloradoblue
I’ve been saying since his arrest that he would never go to trial. I’m just sorry I was right.
Quinerly
Lisa Bloom is in a lather. Doesn’t want his Estate to sue the prison.
(Joy Reid’s show)
Baud
@janesays:
“Ties” are insufficient for decent people to join the worst people on the right in conspiracy mongering.
NeenerNeener
@Doug R: Or Eric Bogosian
Baud
@Dmbeaster:
Is there a difference?
janesays
@Baud: Oh, I don’t think the Clintons had anything to do with this. Just pointing out that there was a known association between Clinton and Epstein.
TS (the original)
@janesays:
The 27 has been debunked by the Clintons. The 4 trips were in relation to the Clinton Foundation. Only ever saw this discussed once – obviously the media will never believe the truth about the Clintons.
Baud
@janesays:
Gotcha. Unfortunately, too many people turn off their thinking skills when it comes to the Clintons. Reality needs constant defense.
TS (the original)
@janesays: Which is what the anti Clinton brigade do all the time.
PaulWartenberg
@David Anderson:
Most pedophiles didn’t have 100 rich guys and political bosses directly and indirectly tied to his pimping operations.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Me too,..
But, it sounded like dickless there though he was the Master of the Universe so I can see him killing himself to avoid going to trail like a little person.
JPL
@TS (the original): When he flew the plane to Africa there were several stops and each stop was counted. That’s how some arrived at a higher number.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: They have Clintons are trending on Twitter. You were right.
A Ghost To Most
@Frankensteinbeck: It would be irresponsible NOT to speculate.
hueyplong
We let Goering kill himself in a situation in which everyone knew he wanted to do it and procedures were supposedly in place to prevent it.
If I were a betting person, I’d put a small amount on “rich guy who wanted to off himself made one individual guard a monetary promise no one could easily refuse.”
Lots of rich assholes are relieved now, which disappoints me greatly. No doubt more are RWNJs than aren’t, because that’s how the uber rich demographic breaks out. Their only worry now is being outed as assholes for their Trumpian donations.
On the positive front, there are a few vulnerable 13 year old girls who will now never know who Epstein was.
Elizabelle
Wow. Just checked in. The Ghislaine Maxwell court documents just dropped yesterday.
Now to catch up on the thread.
TS (the original)
@JPL: thanks – I didn’t see that.
bystander
@LanceThruster: I was unaware of Silsby. I take it she was supplying Killary’s child enslavement at the pizza parlor operation.
janesays
@TS (the original): Well, there’s this… https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/1507315/epstein-flight-manifests.pdf
A Ghost To Most
@Bill Arnold:
That is not the simplest explanation.
Bill Arnold
@Gravenstone:
Yes, well maybe, if there is incriminating information that the authorities don’t already have. From accounts of raids his opsec wasn’t very good.
If the authorities have most of the relevant information, then the hypothetical powerful murderer(s) would just need to worry about his testimony since they could count on the physical evidence being suppressed or lost in a fire and sprinkler deluge or whatever. And by murder, the means include “allowing a suicide” (and perhaps also encouraging it) through apparent incompetence, mistakes, broken equipment, whatever.
I hate this shit. The extent to which the upper reaches of our political/power classes are so infested with rich male pedophiles was a rude awakening. Expect more bodies.
janesays
@TS (the original): I don’t think Bill Clinton had anything to do with Epstein’s death, and I don’t assume there was anything nefarious about Clinton’s relationship with Epstein. But trying to pretend like there was never any relationship between the two men is just willfully stupid.
Ladyraxterinok
@Mai Naem mobile: Chelsea!!
LanceThruster
@bystander:
No need to speculate irresponsibly. The facts themselves are pretty remarkable though.
Immanentize
This was not a relief for Dershowotz, rather a warning.
Let us count his TV appearances in upcoming days.
BroD
So what about all the money he was managing for me? I’ll get it back, right?
LanceThruster
Is Assange next (serious question)?
Renie
NBC reporting Epstein was no longer under a suicide watch. how was that possible?
Bill Arnold
@randy khan:
In a psych hospital it means exactly that. I just asked someone. (Though they did it a few decades ago.) Boring work. You sit, and watch the patient. No no book, no entertainment. Just watch.
Personally, I think we should treat all suicides in jail/prison as murder unless there is video evidence otherwise.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mike in NC:
Can’t wait to see your pictures in an upcoming “On the Road” series. Am interested in the cruise you just took around the British Isles. Do you mind sharing the name of the cruise line and the specific description of this particular cruise?
Steeplejack (phone)
@Chyron HR:
Well played.
trollhattan
@Renie:
[Waves to guards] “Hi guys, I’m totally fine! Really, it was just a bad patch, that strangulation thing, but everything is good now. A-okay. Nothing to see here, fellas.”
“Okay man, here are your shoelaces and that overhead pipe we took out earlier. The cameras, they’re gone,”
Something like that, I assume.
LanceThruster
I’m seeing this viewed through partisan prisms on all platforms, saying it’s all for the benefit of Trump or Clinton, depending on loyalties.
People, please! Isn’t there enough elite corrupt perversion from behind the shadows for everyone?
SFAW
I think it’s outstanding that part of this discussion has migrated to Bill Clinton’s “involvement” with Epstein, and we’re now counting the number of times he flew on Epstein’s jet, and parsing various other aspects.
I’m also hoping that Q can check in, to give us the REAL skinny.
LanceThruster
@Renie:
PUTIIIN!!!!
Bill Arnold
@Renie:
If true, it means that the authorities were no longer concerned about preventing him from killing himself.
Steeplejack (phone)
@NeenerNeener:
Yes! Bogosian would be good.
SFAW
@Chyron HR:
Probably the same investigators who overlooked Hitlary’s involvement with the Benghazi “protesters” — actually, her highly-trained assassins.
TS (the original)
@janesays: Just stop repeating RW attacks on the Clintons
Calling me “willfully stupid” because I prefer NOT to repeat Clinton conspiracy theories is wilfully RW talk.
@janesays: I’m not – you are just repeating again and again RW attacks on the Clintons
B.B.A.
@SFAW: In the interests of equal time, I will reiterate that Trump is a serial child rapist and should spend the rest of his life in prison.
TS (the original)
@SFAW:
Definitely outstanding & I am wilfully ignorant because I hit back against the commenter who keeps bringing up the subject
janesays
@JPL: That would explain a lot, because there were several individual flights clustered together over a few days where Clinton’s name appeared. According to the manifest filed by an attorney of one of Epstein’s accusers in a civil suit, it shows Clinton flew on Epstein’s plane on five separate occasions: January 9, 2002, March 19-21, 2002, July 13, 2002, August 21, 2002, and November 4-9, 2003.
LanceThruster
“Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.”
Claudius – “I, Claudius”
:—–:
Bartleby, the Power Elite Scrivener – “I would prefer not to.”
janesays
@TS (the original): What rightwing attacks have I made against the Clintons? I don’t think Clinton had anything to do with Epstein’s death. I don’t think Clinton had sex with underage girls on Epstein’s plane or did anything illegal with Epstein. Acknowledging that Clinton flew on Epstein’s plane on a number of occasions is not a “rightwing attack” – it is a statement of fact. Trying to pretend like it didn’t happen – when there is court documented evidence that it did – looks stupid.
Just One More Canuck
@JPL: Here in Canada, his death wouldn’t stop civil suits from going ahead (don’t know about the US) – there could still be a lot of concerned people out there
Bill Arnold
@A Ghost To Most:
True that, sorry. The point is that the priors in this are not typical; he had a large number of rich and powerful men concerned about being exposed by him directly or indirectly, so the odds of foul play were significantly above the typical levels. Some subset would prefer to stay low and try to ride it out, but some probably felt otherwise, weren’t thinking rationally, whatever. Whether any of them acted is the current question.
Anyway, soon as I saw this news on the news.google.com feed this AM, was dreading the rest of the day, with shifts as new info-bits emerge publicly.
There will be so much of this. Your take included, which we will also see and perhaps be dominant on the right, as the “rational take”. Which it is, except that it downplays the background of a considerably large number of powerful worried enemies.
sukabi
Interesting that death is accepted at face value, but manner of death isn’t.
If you’re going to speculate how about this: he got an injection of a paralytic and was wheeled out “dead”, free and clear to resume his life outside the US.
Steeplejack (phone)
debbie
@debbie:
Stupid me. I forgot about the video of him checking out chicks with Epstein at his (Epstein’s) shingdig.
TS (the original)
@janesays: I don’t care what you do or don’t think. Anyone that discusses the Clintons in regard to Epstein’s death is repeating RW attacks. Got to be a troll
hueyplong
Where I live, you always have lots of RWNJ acquaintances, through work if nowhere else.
When I read posts here that parallel the substantive content of emails in my inbox, it’s pretty easy to draw conclusions. Maybe not with 100% accuracy, but a number in the 90s fits.
Chris Johnson
@Frankensteinbeck:
I daresay someone’s already mentioned it, but we’ve already seen action on 4Chan to begin pushing the ‘Trump kicked Epstein out’ narrative, very much as a coordinated talking point. So that one’s a cover story from the word go, from very specific sources.
Chris Johnson
@Betty Cracker:
Nobody that loathsome hates themselves as much as that. He might have hated being caught, or been afraid of what would happen next, but that kind of person? To him, he’s the hero of the story. Unto death. Which most likely is what happened, as those he worked for wouldn’t have any reason to continue to protect him, and LOTS of reason to use him as an example to the others.
Yutsano
@Just One More Canuck: Civil suits can be pursued against his estate. IANAL but that is my understanding.
JoeyJoeJoe
@TS (the original): I just pied that person (first use of it). I have no use for RW conspiracy theories.
BroD
Will Trump be going to NYC for a “Thoughts & Prayers” visit?
Sasha
“I have incriminating information that will lead to the arrest of the ‘the rent is too damn high’ guy …”
kindness
If the autopsy report says he ‘jumped’ through a 2″ plate glass window from the 40th floor and fell to his death…..well then yea, I didn’t know he had dirt on Putin.
StringOnAStick
@Kay: My late and gone way too soon BIL was a CO for 5 years and loved it. I’m thankful for the health insurance once he was diagnosed, but other than that I could tell it was hardening him as a person. He was at a minimum security prison and he said most of the inmates were no problem, but the real assholes were at least half of the other CO’s, and usually the longer they’d been a CO, the bigger a power tripping lazy bastard they were.
My younger sister does EEOC work for a state prison system. She says the rise in hate crimes since tRUMP was elected is obvious, both between the prisoners and also by the CO’s.
Ruckus
Read about half the comments and no one asked the questions.
What exactly is a suicide watch supposed to do?
Are they supposed to remove any item that can be used from the cell, like a blanket or clothing?
Yes in theory the jail wants him alive for the trial. Do they actually care?
And really how did anyone think this was going to end?
I know that we have a warped sense of what jail is like, most of us never having been there. I’ve only been there around an empty holding cell, as someone working in a minor law enforcement capacity – shore patrol. I still have no idea what it’s like as a prisoner and no idea what it’s like putting someone inside or having to deal with them, it never happened while I was working.
I’m betting it was suicide. This is a guy that from all reports was the center of a major sex for sale/empowerment gig and while it would take someone with no regard for his victims to do this for years, what he got out of it was apparently a fancy life and money. And all of that was gone the moment he was arrested because he was known by way too many powerful people for his work, way too many victims (yes one is too many – but it seems there were lots and lots more than one), and it went on for a long time. Too much evidence to ignore, too much evidence for him to get away with it, he was going through probably more than one nasty trial and was likely to never see freedom from jail nor any monied life ever again. And no one was going to stand up for him when it counted, he did half his work well, rich and powerful have much to spend in the first place but way too much to lose defending him.
J R in WV
@Mai Naem mobile:
They won’t believe they are dead… even if there’s an open funeral, millions of people pass by to say goodbye. All part of the grand conspiracy to escape their due punishment for all the crimes they were never indicted for.
SFAW
@TS (the original):
On the plus side, he/she did NOT remind us of Hillary’s murder (with her bare hands) of poor Vince Foster. And as far as the “I didn’t EXPLICiTLY SAY that Bill was a pedophile, but I think it’s curious, don’t you, that Bill met with
Loretta LynchEpstein, and who knows WHAT they discussed?” — well, he/she is “just sayin’,”Now, don’t you feel bad about imputing impure motives to her/him? If not — well, I’ll feel bad for the two of us.
Annie
@David Anderson:
FWIW, I agree with you. Epstein had plenty of motivation to kill himself, including the fact that questions are coming up about how he made his money.
Even more than life in prison, I would think someone like that would hate public humiliation.
Also I’m a court clerk and a lot of people have accused me of conspiracy when they lost their cases. They can’t phone the judges directly but since i deal with the public they can call me. That’s taught me to steer clear of conspiracy theories til there’s some evidence.
Also the phrase “mentioned in the Epstein papers” is guaranteed to raise suspicions where there’s no evidence. What were these papers? What did that “mention” actually say? “Met George Mitchell at lunch, he said he had other plans the weekend I invited him”?
J R in WV
@Aleta:
That’s REALLY young! Getting rid of witnesses, huh?
I can speak conspiracy too…
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
Here’s the real conspiracy — how did this thread die, just as I posted a conspiracy thought?
;-)
rikyrah
@Quinerly:
Just watching my DVR of the show.
SFAW
@J R in WV:
Another one of Hitlary’s killings, no doubt.
Tehanu
@Rand Careaga:
If we had upvotes, I’d upvote this for the Firesign ref.
As for Epstein … well, prisoners in Putin’s jails die in the same way all the time. So the US is now even worse IMHO because the Russians don’t hold themselves up as the shining city on the hill and moral exemplar to the world.
Procopius
@Mike R:
I don’t think there is any certainty he would have gotten a long sentence. Probably, sure, but then Trump probably would have pardoned him. After all, Trump said, “He’s a lot of fun to be with.” You’re right about he should have been more closely monitored, though. He was reported to have been found unconscious in his cell with injuries to his neck a couple weeks ago. The Bureau of Prisons claimed he was on suicide watch. I wonder if there was a surveillance camera in his cell. What they need is to release a detailed narrative of how this came about, along with video footage from the camera. Instead I’d be willing to wager a small sum that we will be told they can’t release any information due to an ongoing investigation, and five years from now the investigation will still be “ongoing.” Certainly the warden of the Metropolitan Corrections Center needs to be fired, and his bank records closely examined, and whoever is the head of the Bureau of Prisons should be called to testify before some oversight committee.
Procopius
@brettvk: An excellent comment. I remember that the Soviets knew very well that they were getting propaganda, except maybe for weather reports, and even those they couldn’t trust. The Russian word for Truth is Pravda. The Russian word Izvestia means News. There was a saying (probably apocryphal), “There is no truth in Pravda, and there is no news in Izvestia.” Americans mostly are only beginning to realize there is very little truth in the New York Fishwrap and not much, either, in the Bezos Shopper. I check the Tass web site from time to time, and it’s so boring it’s probably all true.
Blue raven
I don’t Think he is dead.. that much money buys a lot of temp possibilities not to mention his ability to be very mobile..there is a real possibility that those “powerful friends” might also have had just as much motivation to keep him alive..br
Tom Thumb
Who cares. Glad he’s dead. Less money going to a piece of shit to prosecute the obvious. The victims should split his millions.