Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Books are my comfort food!

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

Giving up is unforgivable.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Giving in to doom is how we fail to fight for ourselves & one another.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

The way to stop violence is to stop manufacturing the hatred that fuels it.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

If you’re gonna whine, it’s time to resign!

Beware of advice from anyone for whom Democrats are “they” and not “we.”

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

We still have time to mess this up!

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

Fucking consultants! (of the political variety)

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

We do not need to pander to people who do not like what we stand for.

You are here: Home / Politics / America / Hey Mr. President, Are These Men Suckers & Losers Too? The Four Chaplains

Hey Mr. President, Are These Men Suckers & Losers Too? The Four Chaplains

by | 207 Comments

This post is in: , , , , , ,

Hey Mr. President, Are These Men Suckers & Losers Too? The Four Chaplains

(The Four Chaplains Stained Glass Window at the Carlisle Barracks Chapel, US Army War College, Carlisle Barracks, PA)

On 4 February 1943, running as part of a three ship convoy in the north Atlantic between Newfoundland and Greenland, the US Army Transport Ship (USAT) Dorchester (SC-290583) was carrying 902 uniformed servicemen, merchant seaman, and civilian personnel. 150 miles from port in Greenland, it was identified by the u-boat designated Kriegsmarine U2. Kriegsmarine U2 targeted The Dorchester, fired, and struck her a fatal blow below the waterline. Among the 902 men on The Dorchester were four US Army chaplains, one rabbi, one Catholic priest, and two Protestant ministers. Rabbi (LT) Alexander Goode, Methodist Minister (LT) George Fox, Father (LT) John Washington, and Dutch Reformed Minister (LT) Clark Poling immediately began to move amongst the crew and the transported personnel to administer whatever aid they could. The four chaplains handed off not only life vests, but their own survival gear as well.

Petty Officer John J. Mahoney, reeling from the cold, headed back towards his cabin. “Where are you going'” a voice of calm in the sea of distressed asked’ “To get my gloves,” Mahoney replied. “Here, take these,” said Rabbi Goode as he handed a pair of gloves to the young officer. “I can’t take those gloves,” Mahoney replied. “Never mind,” the Rabbi responded. “I have two pairs.” It was only long after that Mahoney realized that the chaplain never intended to leave the ship.

Once topside, the chaplains opened a storage locker and began distributing life jackets. It was then that Engineer Grady Clark witnessed an astonishing sight. When there were no more lifejackets in the storage room, the chaplains simultaneously removed theirs and gave them to four frightened young men. When giving their life jackets, Rabbi Goode did not call out for a Jew; Father Washington did not call out for a Catholic; nor did Fox or Poling call out for a Protestant. They simply gave their life jackets to the next man in line. One survivor would later call it “It was the finest thing I have seen or hope to see this side of heaven.”

As the ship went down, survivors in nearby rafts could see the four chaplains — arms linked and braced against the slanting deck. Their voices could also be heard offering prayers and singing hymns.

Although the Distinguished Service Cross and Purple Heart were later awarded posthumously Congress wished to confer the Medal of Honor but was blocked by the stringent requirements which required heroism performed under fire. So a posthumous Special Medal for Heroism, The Four Chaplains’ Medal, was authorized by Congress and awarded by the President on January 18, 1961.

It was never given before and will never be given again.

An act of Congress has made 4 February Four Chaplains Day as part of the recognition of their heroism and selflessness that night.

This is a short documentary on the Four Chaplains produced by the US Army Chaplain Center and School:

Here is part of the 2014 memorial service commemorating the Four Chaplains:

 

So, Mr. President, and all your devoutly religious supporters, were the Four Chaplains suckers and losers?

The simple and honest answer is no, no they were not. They were heroes who embodied the best aspects and highest aspirations of the faiths that their ordinations were in, of the the US Army, of the US Army Chaplains Corps, and of Americans!

Open thread!

 

 

Reader Interactions

207Comments

  1. 1.

    germy

    WASHINGTON (AP) – Democratic nominee Joe Biden’s transition team has signed a memorandum of understanding with President Donald Trump’s General Services Administration to begin planning for a potential handover of power.

  4. 4.

    Calouste

    So, Mr. President, and all your devoutly religious supporters, were the Four Chaplains suckers and losers?

    I know this one. The answer is, in whatever passes for his mind, the opposite of the answer to the question “Did they have a private jet funded by the donations of their flock?”

  8. 8.

    West of the Rockies

    Thank you for an edifying and moving post, Adam. Humans are capable of so much good, so much vileness. I would like to believe more of us are essentially good.

  9. 9.

    Adam L Silverman

    @germy: My guess is that Kelly had the anonymous 4 star friend of his feed the story to Goldberg along with the names of others that could and would corroborate it. I’d be very unsurprised to find out that the four star source is Gen (ret) Dunford, who was the CJCS when Kelly was the DHS Secretary or Gen (ret) Neller, who was the US Marine Corps Commandant at the same time.

  11. 11.

    sanjeevs

    @germy: Trump baited Kelly into coming forward today

     

    “I know John Kelly. He was with me. He had no temperament,” Mr Trump said. He went on to say that General Kelly was “exhausted” and “unable to function” by the end of his time with the Trump administration.

    “He was unable to handle the pressure of this job,” the president added. General Kelly served as Mr Trump’s chief of staff from July 2017 to January 2019.

  12. 12.

    Mathguy

    I had never heard the story of the 4 chaplains. It’s one of those “would I have the fortitude to do what they did?” stories that really sticks with you.

    Oh, and f*ck the shitgibbon. And his Propaganda Barbie McEnananananany can DIAF.

  15. 15.

    Adam L Silverman

    @West of the Rockies: You’re welcome. I was first taught the history of the Four Chaplains by my very good friend and former colleague Chaplain (COL ret) Father D’Emma when I was at USAWC.

  17. 17.

    germy

    @lamh36:

    If she didn’t hate him, she would have said “Donald, I was with you that day.”   You know, to stop him from making a fool of himself with his flawed excuses.

  18. 18.

    lamh36

    The fact that NOT ONE CURRENT REPUBLICAN POL has made any statement on this speaks volumes They were hoping they’d get to talk about “hair-gate” the entire holiday weekend…but now…they ghosting everything…smh

  19. 19.

    WereBear

    I keep hoping for a catalytic event that will make people realize how Trump and the Republican party is daring us to stop them while they kill our country.

    Maybe this is it.

  25. 25.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lamh36: I told you this would happen last night. They won’t say anything other than: “I don’t read the Atlantic, I have no comment”.

  27. 27.

    Calouste

    @lamh36: He also made up that there was a downpour, where there is footage of Kelly and a Marine General laying the wreath in his place that shows it was dry and there probably had been a light drizzle earlier, but not more than that.

    The answer is very simple, the shitgibbon didn’t want to sit in a car in his high heels for two times two hours.

  29. 29.

    gene108

    @lamh36:

    I think this gets chucked in the “What if Obama just did what Trump did?” category, on how Republicans would react.

    Edit: Not just when Obama was in office, but even right now in his post-Presidency.

     

  32. 32.

    japa21

    Back when I was still serious about entering the ministry, I often pictured myself as being a chaplain. I knew the history of the four chaplains and often wondered if I would have been able to the same. They embodied the concept of actually living (and dying) by your faith. something many people of all religions have difficulty understanding in this era.

  35. 35.

    CliosFanBoy

    @gene108: If Obama had said those things there’d be republicans rioting in the streets.   They’d be burning his effigy in front of the White House.

  45. 45.

    CatFacts

    According to Ben Wikler’s twitter, there’s apparently going to be a table read of The Princess Bride on Sept. 13 to benefit the Wisconsin Democratic Party. With all the surviving cast plus Rob Reiner.

  52. 52.

    Ken

    @sanjeevs: He went on to say that General Kelly was “exhausted” and “unable to function”

    Wonder what’s got those two phrases running through his mind.  Second half of his physical finally get done?

  53. 53.

    LevelB

    My grandfather was a Shipfitter Third Class on the Henry R. Mallory that was sunk on February 3, 1943, as part a North Atlantic convoy (SC-118).  My grandmother, father and aunt had to wait a year and a day to get the letter, which I now have along with the Purple Heart and certificate. My father was 10 at the time, and told me he just knew all the adults were wrong and his dad would show up one day because he was a great swimmer.

  56. 56.

    NotMax

    @Immanentize

    Dilemma is he’s so young and heading the VA is a dead-end job, politically. I tend to believe his personal political ambitions extend beyond taking such a post.

  57. 57.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    @WereBear:

    I keep hoping for a catalytic event that will make people realize how Trump and the Republican party is daring us to stop them while they kill our country.

    So have I, but I fear it’s like Waiting for Godot.  The people who support Trump are as crazy, if not crazier, than the members of the People’s Temple who committed mass suicide in Jonestown.

    I appreciate Jeffrey Goldberg’s article, but this upcoming election is an all hands on deck situation and anyone who has dirt to dish on Trump needs to go on the record and stop hiding behind anonymity.  Trump is a malignant cancer who poses an existential threat to this planet and sources need to step out of the shadows and reveal their names.

    Does anyone know of other books being released before the election that might contain damaging info about Trump besides these titles:

    Compromised: Counterintelligence and the Threat of Donald J. Trump

    by Peter Strzok

     

    Disloyal by Michael Cohen

     

    Where Law Ends: Inside the Mueller Investigation Hardcover by Andrew Weissmann

     

    Rage by Bob Woodward

  60. 60.

    Yutsano

    @NotMax:  I still think he could take the Senate seat in Indiana. He’s got enough of a profile now plus that could make the Senate even more solid in 2022.

  61. 61.

    debbie

    So, I went to read Trump’s thread and I came across this reply from an even biglier lunatic:

    McCain was the cause of the fire and explosion on the U.S.S. Forrestal. McCain was put to death, but made limited arrangements to spare his legacy; this will be declassified eventually, though John Kasich slipped up about it: t.co/VoUiggMDHY— Rachael (@BlkbrryBluebird) September 4, 2020

    Am I the last to hear about this?

  64. 64.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    @sanjeevs:  @Ken:

    Once again, classic projection from Trump.

    While I certainly don’t expect John Kelly to publicly endorse Biden, it would be refreshing to see him issue some sort of response to this latest instance of Trump trashing him.

  66. 66.

    Roger Moore

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I was first taught the history of the Four Chaplains by my very good friend and former colleague Chaplain (COL ret) Father D’Emma when I was at USAWC.

    When I was in high school, I did a two week summer camp at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs.  I was mostly focused on the academic activities I was doing as part of the summer camp, which were quite intense, but in spare moments it was interesting to look around and see how things worked at a service academy.  The thing I remember most was a long hallway in the main academic building that had plaques with the citations for everyone who had won a Medal of Honor serving in the USAF (and the USAAC and USAAF).

    They obviously made a very strong impression on me.  I believe the cadets are expected to memorize the names of the men on those plaques and at least the gist of the citation, if not the exact words.  While they might seem kind of extraneous, I think they get to the heart of the Academy’s mission of turning young civilians into the kind of people who will have the fortitude to earn their own plaque on that wall if circumstances require it.  I doubt the chaplains have their own wall of plaques, but I am sure they have their own way of teaching their new members about what may be expected of them.

  67. 67.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I’ve never heard the story of the Four Chaplains. Thanks for sharing it here, Adam. I’ll check out the documentary a little later, after dinner.

  70. 70.

    MomSense

    @lamh36:

    The cowardice and absolute failure of the Republicans to uphold the oath of office they swore is inexcusable.  Every single one of them knows damned well how unfit he is.  They know what a threat he is to our democracy.  I thought I had reached peak rage, but I seem to have endless anger for these mofos.

  72. 72.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @WereBear:

    Think of it this way:  Every human is an individual, and their line is drawn in a different place.  Many of those places won’t make sense to you, or involve an accumulated total rather than any individual event.  For a sizable chunk, nothing Trump is ever likely to do will cross their line.  But this crossed someone’s line.  Probably more than a few someone’s in the military.

    @debbie:

    That sounds like Q stuff.  They are NUTS.  Wacky photos-connected-by-string-on-a-corkboard nuts.  Faked deaths are one of their Things.

  73. 73.

    NotMax

    @Yutsano

    Should give that his best shot, anyway. A D losing in Indiana carries with the loss scant opprobrium.

    @Calouste

    Skills set for VA and for DoD are quite different kettles of fish. I don’t see a few years in active military plus a few years at VA as adding up to near enough experiential institutional infusion to go to heading DoD. YMMV.

  76. 76.

    Geminid

    @Yutsano: Todd Young (R-IN) is up for reelection in 2022, along with 21-22 other republican senators. Mike Braun runs again in 2024. Braun is dumber than your average post.    Not saying Mayor Pete should run for one of these seats, just that he could.

  77. 77.

    mousebumples

    @Adam L Silverman: The other one that should get more press is Father Damian of Molokai.

    I was raised in the Catholic church (including Catholic school K-8), so I’m familiar with his background. However, the Four Chaplains was a new one to me. Thank you for sharing. They were excellent examples of their faith.

    @CatFacts: According to Ben Wikler’s twitter, there’s apparently going to be a table read of The Princess Bride on Sept. 13 to benefit the Wisconsin Democratic Party. With all the surviving cast plus Rob Reiner.

    Totally different topic, but I saw that too, and I’m super-excited. Easily one of my favorite movies. I was laughing when I saw Cary Elwes quote-tweet one of Trump’s “LAW & ORDER!” tweets the other day with a, “You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

  78. 78.

    Adam L Silverman

    @NotMax: He’s not qualified to be the Secretary of anything. A under or assistant secretary? Yes, he’s good to go. But he just doesn’t have the experience to serve as a cabinet secretary. That’s not a knock on him, it’s just reality. We’ve spent the past four years with more and more people with fewer and fewer qualifications wind up running cabinet agencies, departments, bureaus, etc. It shouldn’t be repeated. And this is the problem with the stunt casting everyone does for what a Biden cabinet and administration should look like.

  82. 82.

    piratedan

    @Adam L Silverman: probably wise to use him in advisory capacity for both the VA and LGBTQ communities.  Help them become more involved in local politics and in what government programs exist and how to apply for that assistance.  Help on outreach regarding what other programs are needed and provide input into making the sausage.

  83. 83.

    Adam L Silverman

    @hueyplong: There was a long time misrepresentation of what happened on the Forrestal as a political attack on McCain. That he shot off the munition that caused the fire. The reality is he was in his jet doing his preflight checklist when the munition struck the jet next to him. He didn’t have anything to do with causing the fire. What he was responsible for is he got out of his plane and went back to the pilots conference room rather than help put the fire out like everyone else did.

  85. 85.

    prostratedragon

    An organ version of something we used to sing at the Congregational Church I grew up in. Could perhaps be made less Christian, though that middle verse does point out what many Christians evade, and what others may understand in different terms:

    “Once to Every Man and Nation”

  87. 87.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Delk: I had not. It is owned by Hilton and I’d imagine that they’ve taken quite a financial hit over the past 6 to 8 months. And this includes the spa and gym they built when they did the renovation a decade or so ago that is open to the public, not just hotel residents.

  88. 88.

    Roger Moore

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Think of it this way: Every human is an individual, and their line is drawn in a different place. Many of those places won’t make sense to you, or involve an accumulated total rather than any individual event. For a sizable chunk, nothing Trump is ever likely to do will cross their line. But this crossed someone’s line. Probably more than a few someone’s in the military.

    This.  As I have said before, I’m not surprised that there are Republicans with the integrity to turn on Trump, but I am frequently surprised at which ones and what their breaking point was.  There may be many people who will never turn on Trump, but there are some out there who will, and we never know exactly what will make them do it.  We need to keep hammering him on everything that might be a breaking point for someone who is wavering in their support.

  91. 91.

    Obvious Russian Troll

    @Frankensteinbeck: It’s definitely Q bullshit. Someone in the youtube video the tweet linked to mentioned that Q predicted McCain’s execution by exactly thirty days. Which totally proves everything!

    [eye roll, wanking motion]

  93. 93.

    Adam L Silverman

    @NotMax: My professional opinion, not that anyone in Bidenworld cares, is that there should be only professional career diplomats from the Foreign Executive Service serving as ambassadors in the Biden administration. At least for the first term. There is just too much damage that needs to be repaired to leave it to amateurs who donated a lot of money.

  97. 97.

    Brachiator

    Coming late to the thread.

    I’ve never heard the story of the Four Chaplains. Thanks for sharing it here, Adam. It makes for a welcome counter to the foul nonsense coming from Trump.

  100. 100.

    Citizen_X

    @Patricia Kayden:  Boy, reading the comments, a lot of people are like, “lol, what does he know? Stick to space!”

    So I guess now astronauts are losers, too. Move over, war heroes!

  101. 101.

    Ken

    @debbie: I had never heard it even suggested.

    No need to apologize for not constantly reading the lowest, vilest, most deranged parts of the internet. (Other than Balloon Juice, of course.)

  104. 104.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    When it comes to ambassadorships to the G-20 countries, absolutely. Willing to exercise leeway for other locales, with two corollaries.

    1) Should never be dangled as a reward for donations.
    2) Don’t know how deep the bench of foreign service officers is at this point, but expect necessity will call for bringing in people with public service executive experience who can get up to speed when in place.

  105. 105.

    Adam L Silverman

    Well now we know what the defense is going to be:

    thedailybeast.com/trumps-defenders-he-doesnt-hate-the-troops-he-just-sounds-like-an-asshole

    In The Daily Beast’s interviews with eleven senior administration officials, Trump aides, Republican operatives, and former and current friends of the president, several of them mounted a curious defense of Trump. Yes, they admitted, the commander in chief at times makes callous, tone-deaf comments about American military personnel behind closed doors. But it’s because he hates the wars they’re forced to fight, not the service members themselves.

    “The president means no disrespect to our troops; it’s just that the way he speaks, he can sound like an asshole sometimes,” one of these sources, a current senior administration official, told The Daily Beast. “That’s how he is [when the cameras are off]…It’s his style.”

    Some of these sources defending President Trump and pushing back on The Atlantic’s story agreed to go on the record. Others would only speak on-background and in an anonymous capacity—even after the White House trashed the magazine for relying on such nameless sources. (The president on Friday afternoon called the story a “hoax,” even though the Associated Press and Fox News had confirmed key details of the original piece.)

    Some of these individuals close to the president did concede there was one part of Atlantic editor Jeffrey Goldberg’s article that rang true to them: the anecdote about Trump joining John Kelly, his former White House chief of staff, on a visit to the grave of Kelly’s son Robert—who was killed in the war in Afghanistan—and coldly asking Kelly, “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?”

    Three people with direct knowledge of the president’s private remarks in the past three years about Robert Kelly, as well as other Americans who’ve died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, said that Trump had made similar-sounding comments to them, too. This included the president mentioning that their service in these war zones was a “waste,” or that U.S. military personnel in these conflicts had “died for nothing,” or that the fallen “should have been doing something else.”

    However, these sources, who would only speak on the condition of anonymity,all independently insisted that Trump was not disrespecting the U.S. war dead: He was merely stating a belief that they should not have been sent overseas to fight and die in these wars in the first place. Each said that the president often has a brash, ill-mannered way of talking that can obscure what they believe to be his intended message, especially in moments when Trump is trying to convey sympathy or empathy.

  107. 107.

    The Moar You Know

    Knew about Father Damian.  Had no idea about these four.  What an example of the finest of the human spirit.

  108. 108.

    Kent

    @Immanentize:@lamh36: I so want Buttigieg to head the VA.  Maybe too small a position, but he has earned the right to make that work for veterans if he wants it.

    I think he would be better as Secretary of Commerce.  Which is actually the most tech-laden agency in the government.  With NOAA, National Weather Service, NIST, the Patent Office, the Census, various statistical agencies, and the Small Business Administration.  Lots of room there for a young-ish bright tech-savvy Dem to make a lot of difference.  Especially on Climate Change.

    The VA calls for someone with medical experience as that is it’s main mission.

  111. 111.

    Martin

    @Adam L Silverman: Agreed. They’ll excuse this. Some of the margins may not, but virtually all of them will. Elected Republicans will just wait this story out until the next one comes along. I mean, none of them are being asked to comment on Trumps multiple calls for voters to vote twice. Those questions vanished overnight. These will as well.

  112. 112.

    The Moar You Know

    Each said that the president often has a brash, ill-mannered way of talking that can obscure what they believe to be his intended message, especially in moments when Trump is trying to convey sympathy or empathy.

    @Adam L Silverman: that horseshit would maybe have worked in 2017, but not today. Everyone in America knows what Trump is. Quite a few people love him because of it.  He despises the troops, of course he does. He despises pretty much everyone.

  113. 113.

    Martin

    @Adam L Silverman: Interesting corner they’re putting themselves in. Trump doesn’t think we should have fought in WWII? In retrospect there’s not a lot of controversy about that one.

  115. 115.

    Lex

    @lamh36: My own congresscritter, unsurprisingly, is ducking the question because that’s the least damaging thing he can do. If he says he agrees with Trump it hurts him in November. If he says he doesn’t, it hurts him in the next primary.

  116. 116.

    Ken

    @gwangung: Is that the best they can do?

    Yes. Remember, this is around the fourth or fifth round of low-quality hires, the earlier ones having been fired or quit.  So “he gets confused and instead of saying ‘war is bad’ he says ‘the dead troops are all losers'” is what it is.

  119. 119.

    Roger Moore

    @germy:

    “The president’s never seen that video,” McEnany says of a video he himself tweeted out.

    This is just an admission that Trump is not always in control of his own Twitter account.  That’s not completely unreasonable, but it is a good justification for not treating his tweets as official statements or orders.  These things need to come through proper channels with evidence that Trump has approved them.

  123. 123.

    TS (the original)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The president means no disrespect to our troops; it’s just that the way he speaks

    And the outcry from the media, the GOP & probably the democrats if any democrat spoke in this fashion.

  124. 124.

    Ken

    @Roger Moore: a good justification for not treating his tweets as official statements or orders

    The Biden administration will need a group that does nothing but invalidate tweet-only policy changes.  Any challenge can be met by dragging out Trump’s golf caddy to confirm that he and others used the account.

  125. 125.

    debbie

    @A Ghost to Most:

    I heard reporting this afternoon that he advised reporters to look into China, rather than Russia, being behind the poisoning of Nalvany. “You’re always bringing up Russia.”  ?

  128. 128.

    Roger Moore

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Well now we know what the defense is going to be:

    That isn’t “the defense”.  There’s never just one defense for the indefensible stuff Trump is charged with; there are always a bunch.  He didn’t say it.  It’s being fabricated by his enemies.  He did say it, but he was joking.  He said it and meant it, but not the way you’re taking it.  Hillary would have been worse.  Squirrel!

  131. 131.

    Adam L Silverman

    @schrodingers_cat: My guess is that Kelly wanted it out there now ahead of the election, but he wanted to do it at least one step removed from the reporter. He’s being passive-aggressive in his opposition to a second Trump term.

  132. 132.

    oldster

    That story about the 4 Chaplains is a good antidote to the poison of Trump’s immorality.

    Those 4 men showed something fine and admirable that day, something so supremely human we can only view it as divine.

    And part of the punishment that Trump suffers for his wickedness, not some day but every day, already, is the very fact that he cannot see it.

    There are joys that he will never feel, and those chaplains felt them.

    There are beauties he will never see, and they saw them.

    There are loves that he will never have, and they lived them.

    They won the greatest prizes of life, and he is a loser.

  137. 137.

    Geminid

    @Lex: If your congresscritter publically disagrees with trump, the trump fans won’t wait till the next primary to punish him. They’ll just leave the House line blank this election. Many of trump’s hard core supporters despise the republican party.

  140. 140.

    Elizabelle

    Listening to Rachel Maddow.

    The other thing I love is that it’s clear that Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Mike Pompeo are lying their considerably sized asses off.

    So many confirmations of Trump’s behavior. Even Fox News confirmed story was solid.

  142. 142.

    Sab

    @prostratedragon: We used to sing that in my Episcopal church in Florida ( in the ’60s). I had no idea it was an abolitionist song. I bet our priests knew and the comgregation had no clue.

  143. 143.

    ballerat

    @debbie: “put to death” is a fundie tell, imo. It’s biblical language for what everyone who lives in the modern world/reality would otherwise a call state sanctioned execution. Or that he was assassinated or neutralized or taken out or whacked or silenced or killed or just plain old old murdered.

    But a christian fundamentalist sees it in terms of their biblical mindset; hence, he was “put to death”.

  145. 145.

    James E Powell

    @lamh36:

    Mayor Pete has DEF been one of the better surrogates for the Biden camp.

    I wanted to scream at the FOX hack and I’m just watching the video. Mayor Pete is clearly a better person and I am.

  146. 146.

    James E Powell

    @Adam L Silverman:

    He was merely stating a belief that they should not have been sent overseas to fight and die in these wars in the first place.

    When I said this, I was labeled an objectively pro-terrorist traitor.

  150. 150.

    Obvious Russian Troll

    @ballerat: I don’t see “put to death” as a tell here. I’ve followed the Q nonsense since the beginning, and many of them literally think that McCain was executed. “Put to death” is one way I would say “executed”, and my wife makes fun of me for not knowing Bible stories because I never went to church or Sunday school as a kid.

    Having said that, there is definitely a lot of overlap in the Q people with the wackier elements of the religious right (especially the ones that fell for the Satanic Panic in the eighties). But there are plenty of New Age and UFO loons who’ve gathered under the Q banner.

  151. 151.

    Ken

    @James E Powell: When I said this, I was labeled an objectively pro-terrorist traitor.

    You didn’t phrase it right. Instead of “These wars are morally wrong and we should not be fighting them,” you should have said “The soldiers are all suckers and losers.”

  153. 153.

    zhena gogolia

    I don't feel bad for all the Trump defenders desperately spinning his nauseating insults to our troops.They knew what they signed up for.— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec) September 5, 2020

  154. 154.

    Bill Arnold

    @schrodingers_cat:
    If you squint, it was a “triple tap” strike; the “series of ministrokes” denial on twitter, the “people that are in the dark shadows” interview, and then this Atlantic piece. They aren’t obviously connected, but are close in time. Ask Jeff Goldberg about his timing, perhaps.
    As to why, it’s always been the case that the only probable way to remove DTJ from office is by a decisive electoral loss, because of the R Senate majority. So this sort of story is best deployed before shortly before the election.
    At least that’s been my view the last day or so.
    It’s still in play; we should be working on maximizing the damage this does to the Trump campaign. If nothing else, these stories dominate news cycles, and this one will fester for a while IMO, unless somebody like Kelly denies their part of it.

  155. 155.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    I’m kind of surprised that a lot of y’all had never heard about the 4 Chaplains.  My mom told me about them when I was growing up.  Maybe it was both of my parents being young adults during the war.

  158. 158.

    J R in WV

    @debbie:

    September 4, 2020 at 7:52 pm

    So, I went to read Trump’s thread and I came across this reply from an even biglier lunatic:

    McCain was the cause of the fire and explosion on the U.S.S. Forrestal. McCain was put to death, but made limited arrangements to spare his legacy; this will be declassified eventually, though John Kasich slipped up about it: t.co/VoUiggMDHY— Rachael (@BlkbrryBluebird) September 4, 2020

    Am I the last to hear about this?

    But who was that guy in the Senate all those years?

    McCain was involved in that tragic fire, which I learned about from reading his autobiography back when he was running for president. I recalled learning a lot about that fire in USN firefighter school in Charleston SC.

    McCain did everything wrong in that fire, but survived to write his memoir, and there are reasons he never made Flag rank even though both his father and grandfather were Admirals.

  161. 161.

    Martin

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: My grandmother told me the story – but she was a nurse during the war who was wounded when her ship was fired on, so she was pretty in tune to events like that. I didn’t think it was a well known story.

  162. 162.

    J R in WV

    @Adam L Silverman:

    What he was responsible for is he got out of his plane and went back to the pilots conference room rather than help put the fire out like everyone else did.

    According to his autobio, he also dropped his bomb load before escaping the plane, which was not SOP. They wanted the bomb load on the plane, so the whole shooting mess could be pushed overboard.

    I learned a lot about that fire in USN firefighter school in 1971. The Navy learned a lot about modern fire on warships from that tragic incident. Magnesium flares for night battles burn really hot, and water just catches fire when poured on the flare.

  164. 164.

    Eunicecycle

    I had known the story of the Four Chaplains because my little town has a bridge dedicated to them. None of them were from this town, but a vet group (VFW?) was promoting having memorials for them around the country to keep their story alive. When a new bridge was built here in 1993, it was dedicated to their memory.

  166. 166.

    geg6

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    So were my parents.  My dad was in the Army Air Corps and my mom working as a bookkeeper at J&L Steel here in Beaver County, PA.  My mom was a very observant Catholic.  They often discussed their experiences during the Depression and WWII.  I have never heard this story until now.

  167. 167.

    prostratedragon

    @Sab:
    Yeah, Congregationalists (now UCC) are kind of fluid, but many like our church are pretty much Low Church CofE. You’d have been right at home.

    Though the abolitionists took up the song, Lowell’s idea was even worse, to some. He opposed the Mexican War, and had the nerve to suggest that in this the U.S. might be taking the evil side.

  171. 171.

    J R in WV

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Seriously though what do you think is behind the timing of this story in Atlantic. It happened in 2018. So why now.

    Sometimes it takes quite a while to put a complex and controversial story together, especially when a reporter needs to get verification of stories told off the record. No doubt it took this long to come together…

  172. 172.

    Suzanne

    @lamh36: Nah, they’re not in trouble. At least not in any more trouble than they were last week. His people are not baked in. They are cast in concrete.

  173. 173.

    ballerat

    @Obvious Russian Troll: There is a lot of overlap. It works on several levels.

    Yet, “put to death” is very much an archaic way of saying executed. Using that language puts it in the fundies’s wheelhouse. It also implies a state sanctioned execution. Which also puts it in the q-anon “deep state” wheelhouse.

  178. 178.

    Sloane Ranger

    Adam, thank you for the four chaplains story These men exhibited the highest traditions of their faiths. Their story should be wider known. My eyes got a little damp reading about their selfless heroism.

    I don’t follow this McCain thing. It sounds like the fire happened when he was still a navy pilot. So, why did they wait 40 odd years before putting him “to death”?

    Or was Senator McCain a) a zombie, or b) an imposter? If the latter, when did the switch happen and why bother? If they had wanted to save the family reputation, surely the easier thing would be to say he died in an accident or while a POW?

    I’m overthinking this, aren’t I?

  179. 179.

    Another Scott

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: I heard about them as a kid as well.  I’m not sure exactly where though – maybe a story in Boy’s Life when I was in the Boy Scouts or something…

    They certainly lived their faith.  And they put paid to those charlatans who infect so much of public religiosity now.

    Thanks Adam.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  185. 185.

    Doug R

    @Adam L Silverman:

     

    My professional opinion, not that anyone in Bidenworld cares, is that there should be only professional career diplomats from the Foreign Executive Service serving as ambassadors in the Biden administration. At least for the first term. There is just too much damage that needs to be repaired to leave it to amateurs who donated a lot of money.

    I’m sure Canadians would be fine with Pete as ambassador.

  194. 194.

    Ruckus

    @Ruckus:

    In 1967 only the damage control rating put out fires and plugged holes. By 1970 that had changed and we all learned how. I personally had to put out a fuel fire in an enclosed room, along with everyone else. Least fun thing I did in 12 weeks. Also probably the most important.

  197. 197.

    joel hanes

    @Martin:

    Nick is the best companion, and has the best voice acting in the game.

    Although the guy doing Travis Miles probably had the most fun.

  198. 198.

    ballerat

    Are these men suckers and losers?

    Why, Yes, yes they are.

    If they weren’t God would have saved them.

    Duh.

    The fact He allowed them to die means they weren’t blessed by His favor or by his grace of financial success.

    If they were favored by His love they would have survived and His many blessings in the form of a check would have arrived in the mail to pay off the mortgage and for Emmylou’s operation and for a new car.

  199. 199.

    Ruckus

    @J R in WV:

    I didn’t know about him dropping his munitions. I do know he went to the pilots room. My understanding is that only damage control rates were to fight fires and so he was supposed to get out of the way. Others helped for sure but no one besides damage control was trained like you and I were not long after. And yes the navy really saw the error of their ways with that one.

  200. 200.

    ballerat

    @J R in WV: Naw. I think Shrodinger’s cat is on to this. They sat on this for some reason.

    I figure someone finally decided going along would cost more than opposing.

  202. 202.

    Tehanu

    @MomSense: I thought I had reached peak rage, but I seem to have endless anger for these mofos.

    You and me both. The depths to which they sink keep getting deeper.

     

    @oldster: And part of the punishment that Trump suffers for his wickedness, not some day but every day, already, is the very fact that he cannot see it.

    But he doesn’t realize he’s being punished. I’d pity him, but frankly pity is too good to waste on him.

  207. 207.

    Matt

    So, Mr. President, and all your devoutly religious supporters, were the Four Chaplains suckers and losers?

    At this point, the POTUS and his band of deplorables would probably argue the U-Boat captain was acting in self-defense to take out a transport full of Antifa.

Comments are closed.