Many years ago, back when compact discs were a newfangled invention and Al Gore was still creating the Internet the Nation was swept with one of those ‘art controversies’ that flare up from time to time.
In 1989, an artist, Andres Serrano, exhibited a photograph he took a couple of years earlier that sent Jesse Helmes and his ilk into spasms of rage. The work was called Piss Christ:
Somehow, whenever I think of this image, I also think of Ralph Reed, an old episode of Night Gallery and Dante’s Inferno.
Along with some photographs by Robert Mapplethorpe, Piss Christ, was one of the works of art that sent the Wingnuts of that long-ago era deep over the edge and deep into yet another battle in their permanent war against art.
The photo is an image of a plastic and word crucifix floating in a container of fluid that the artist said was his urine, hence the name of the piece. The work is beautiful in a way, but also a bit silly when one really considers it.
It was Catholic Nun and art critic Sister Wendy Beckett who–in an interview with Bill Moyers–may have had the best comment on Piss Christ, the artist and the controversy (emphasis added):
Moyers presses on, asking whether she was offended by Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ, a work which, he claims, “denigrates the central figure of your faith.” Again, she begs to differ. While advancing her opinion that Serrano is “not a very gifted young man, but he’s trying to do his best,” Sister Wendy absolutely refuses to see Piss Christ as blasphemous. Instead she reads it as an admonitory work that attempts to say “this is what we are doing to Christ.”
Sister Wendy hits on the connection of Piss Christ to Ralph Reed. Now some might remember that Reed and his Christian Coalition used the controversy as a way to fund-raise and promote their organizations. They continued to beat their drums about Serrano and Mapplethorpe for over a decade and if pressed today you can be sure that they would bring it up again if it might help a few more rubes to transfer money from their pockets to Ralph and his cavalcade of grifters. While their endless con in the pursuit of power and wealth is of interest–it is Ralph’s deep anti-Christianity that really ties the little prick to Piss Christ.
For Ralph’s entire career he has been pissing on Christ, the teachings of Jesus, the notion of Christianity and anything of value that people of faith might hold dear. I’ve come to think of Serrano’s Piss Christ not as an image Chirst, but rather a portrait of Ralph Reed and his twisted soul. It is Reed’s “Picture of Dorian Gray” as it were.
Reed should be in prison for his many crimes, but unlike his old pal Jack Abramoff, Ralph got a sulfur infused ‘get out of jail free’ card. And so, this professional grifter continues to run his con, pissing on Christ every chance he gets. In the run-up to the Election he was teaming up with old grifter pals like Dick Armey and Grover Norquist and new ones like the Quitta from Wasilla to run the scams he has been running for decades–to line their pockets and protect the powerful. And, as always, he claims Jesus even as he endlessly pisses on him.
Ralph was in the news again today–a grifter can never rest. Ralph offered his post-election analysis:
Democrats would have had fewer losses on election Tuesday if President Obama had embraced a “Christ-like model of leadership,” says Ralph Reed, founder and chairman of the Faith and Freedom Coalition. Reed, who used to run Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition, says a good leader is one who provides not just the “bread, but also the bread of life” for his constituents.
“Even if you bring the capital-gains tax down to zero,” create more jobs, and turn the economy around, he argues, Obama still needs to give an “eternal” set of values, such as opposing abortion and same-sex marriage.
So who would be a Christ-like GOP challenger to Obama in 2012? Reed says his friend, Sarah Palin.
Jesus is just drowning in Ralph’s endless stream of piss.
The pilot for the old Rod Serling TV show Night Gallery had an episode called “The Escape Route”. It was about a Nazi war criminal hiding out in South America. Every day he would visit an art gallery and wish that he could enter a peaceful painting of a fisherman on a lake. By the end of the show he did get into a work of art, but just not the one he wanted. Instead, he got into the one that he deserved.
I hope Ralph’s journey will be a bit like that and that Serrano’s Piss Christ is a visual representation of Ralph’s future home in one of the seven circles of Hell. I imagine that a pissed off Christ might find it fittng for Reed to spend eternity nailed to a plastic cross and floating in all the piss that Ralph has caused to be aimed at the teachings of Christ over his short and deeply blasphemous career.
Cheers
dengre
handy
Christianists, making new atheists every day.
Bnut
I think Jesus would be most pissed if capital-gains were not taxed.
Joseph Nobles
Piss Christ is a powerful piece of art. There’s been no better demonstration of what Paul called the offense of the cross in modern times.
And what you said about the corrupt Ralph Reed is spot-on as well.
Kryptik
If Jesus did come back, I think he really would be pissed. Ralph Reed and his ilk would be given the lashes like the money changers in the Temple.
BGinCHI
When will George Soros pony over the bucks for Damian Hirst to float Ralph Reed in a sealed globe of piss?
Piss Reed.
I could just look at it for hours. So peaceful.
Kryptik
@BGinCHI:
Ralph Peed.
BGinCHI
@Kryptik: Reed as a turd in Tunch’s litter box.
Now that’s a calendar I’d buy.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
I’ll grant you the first one, and probably the second, depending on how closely the people in this debate would define “the teachings of Jesus.” And the fourth is too large a group to say anything definitive about, since it covers all faiths and even a few agnostics.
But the third? I’m not so sure. Since the Church became concerned with political power way back during times of the Roman Empire, large chunks of it have been involved in the very kind of crap Ralphie-boy has been shilling. He’s part of a long Christian tradition of fleecing the rubes while spouting pretty talk of redemption and salvation and the need to fear an angry god.
Let me be clear here–I’m not saying that every Christian church everywhere does this kind of thing. But it’s not exactly uncommon, and it’s not a new phenomenon. In fact, I think there’s an argument to be made that the actual tradition of Christianity is one of hypocrisy and double-dealing, and that the groups who haven’t been involved in it are the exception rather than the rule.
arguingwithsignposts
So Obama should have driven the moneychangers out of the temple? I’m all for that. Ralph Reed and his ilk make me sick, and I’m an agnostic.
General Stuck
I am at the point where these crazy fuckers hardly register anymore. Reed somehow thinks that the important set of values extends past “Even if you bring the capital-gains tax down to zero,”/ It doesn’t, except for the shut ins watching round the clock Pat Robertson pining for the rapture to escape the liberal fornicators and abortionists, and now also too, with the vapors from seeing a black president squatting in their White House.
The hucksters and charlatans could care less about the Bible, outside maybe selling them for a profit. Peel away all the “eternal values” and you will find nothing more than a bloated bank account from fleeced flocks. Usually tax free and held in an off shore phony corporate account, of a corporation that exists entirely within the space of a rented PO Box on some sunny desert isle.
Mnemosyne
Fred Clark at Slacktivist has been hitting this theme out of the park for years now, and he had a really great post the other day about how one of the reasons he’s pissed at the Left Behinders is that they’ve quite literally taken joy and happiness away from the people who listen to them and filled them with cynicism and despair instead.
It’s a good read:
Thoroughly Pizzled
Robert Mapplethorpe took some beautiful photographs. When I saw Michelangelo’s David in Florence, they juxtaposed Michelangelo’s statues with Mapplethorpe’s photos. Pretty powerful exhibition.
asiangrrlMN
Excellent post, dengre. I really hate the Christianists for all the moralizing and perverting they have done. There is something deeply abhorrent about people like Reed who wear the face of evil so genteelly.
@General Stuck: Sadly, I have to agree with you. There is just too much of it out there to really get my dander up.
John - A Motley Moose
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): I wouldn’t single out Christianity on this. After all, it’s the main function of religion, whether intended or not.
MoeLarryAndJesus
Christianity is malignant nonsense, and the idea of an eternal hell is the worst creation of human imagination. That’s why Reed is attracted to such bullshit in the first place. He’s an asshole who knows his way around shit, and he knows how to squeeze the most out of it.
Yutsano
I have known several Christians in my life. These are people who try to emulate the life and spirit of Jesus in their best human way possible. Whatever else Ralph Reed is, he is definitely not a Christian. He shall be weighed upon the scale of life, and shall be found wanting.
BombIranForChrist
i really need to pee now.
grung0r
I don’t think so. I’m a huge fan of people of pissing on the notion of Christianity . It’s a noble art, and one that the world could use a lot more of. I don’t see it here. I see complaining about other people who don’t interpret some stupid fucking bronze age fairly tale the same way you do.
I did enjoy your wish that another human being spend all eternity being tortured a perceived slight against your tiny and pathetic sky dictator. That was rather Jesus like of you, I think we can all agree.
Mnemosyne
@grung0r:
That is a very fierce defense on your part of Ralph Reed, former executive director of the Christian Coalition.
Somehow your complaint is ringing a bit hollow. Perhaps you’d like to tell us some more how Dennis’ ripping of Reed is way worse than Reed leading the Republicans to victory in the 1994 elections.
grung0r
Mnemosyne:
Fuck you. I never defended that piece of shit’s record. You show me where I did.
But I will defend that Dennis’s ripping is the worse offense . Leading the republicans to victory, or being a genocidal maniac for that matter, are finite crimes, ones not worthy of spending ALL ETERNITY BEING TORTURED, which is what Dennis wished on Reed, and for Blasphemy no less! For people who claim to turn the other cheek and love your enemy, you sure have a hell of a nasty streak.
Yutsano
@grung0r:
Funny, I don’t recall any one here laying claim to such a statement. And fuck you very much for assuming we’re all Christians here. Maybe you should try figuring out where the hell your own soul is before worrying so much about mine.
Mnemosyne
@grung0r:
You do know Reed’s long history with Jack Abramoff, right? And his history of election fraud? His cheating the government and his backers out of millions of dollars?
But Dennis is the worse person for saying something mean about Reed on the internet that you claim you don’t even believe is possible. I’m assuming you would have the exact same hysterical reaction if Dennis had said he hopes that Reed is devoured alive by zombies in the coming zombie apocalypse?
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne:
If I ask for this for Christmas, do you think Santa will wuv me enough to make that happen?
grung0r
Yutsano. Err…I wasn’t speaking to you. Memosyne is in fact a Christian, as I know from a previous conversation with him/her. The ‘people’ who I was referring to were Christians, not Balloon Juicers.
so, fuck you back.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@John – A Motley Moose: I only singled out Christianity because that was the group Dengre’s post discussed. I agree with you on that.
ReallyWyldPyrate
I be intending a piece of art entitled “Pissed off Christ” in which the Good Lord bludgeons Rush Limbaugh to death with Ralph Reed.
ReallyWyldPyrate
@ReallyWyldPyrate:
Action figures will also be available, me hearties.
KDP
While not religious myself, I am saddened by the distortion of faith that is espoused by people like Reed, Robertson, Palin and the others. The worst part, for me, is that their victims wander the world, their vision blinded by fear and their minds closed to any voice that does not reinforce their fears.
I’m just not sure what can be done….
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: I do! I’ll wave my magic
tataswand and make all your wishes come true.Good lord. Some people need to unbunch their boxers and learn the difference between actually doing bad shit (Reed) and writing about wanting someone to experience bad shit. Sheesh.
Yutsano
@grung0r: Amazing you know her faith with perfect clarity but not her gender. Methinks you’re just making shit up now.
@Mnemosyne: Heh. Apparently I haz too many chivalrous impulses for my own good, though I have zero issue in riding to your defence. Remember I have a short line to the Marines should that become necessary. :)
Mnemosyne
@grung0r:
Actually, I’m not a Christian (though I am a her). I was raised a Catholic, so I have those cultural references, but I don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God, assuming that such a person even existed at all. There is no bearded old white man in the sky, and I have no idea what happens after we die, though I hope it’s not too unpleasant.
However, I do believe that you are an asshole for deciding that Dennis is a worse person than Ralph fucking Reed because he wrote a made-up fantasy based on an episode of Rod Serling’s “Night Gallery,” which I’m pretty sure is not something Dennis saw in church.
freelancer
@asiangrrlMN:
Go fuck yourself with a rusty pitchfork hon. Just like they used to do down in Guantanamo Bay when you didn’t tell the truth.
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
I know some Hollywood animators. We could probably get a reasonable facsimile worked up.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: If you know folks at Pixar I shall instantly and forever haz teh jealous.
@asiangrrlMN: Umm, I think he’s snarking. At least I hope he’s snarking. Otherwise I’ll have to order a carpetbombing of Omaha stat.
asiangrrlMN
@freelancer: What? Because I don’t think what dengre wrote is worse than what Reed did? I don’t understand your animosity.
@Yutsano: I have no idea what that’s about. I really don’t.
Calouste
@MoeLarryAndJesus:
Eternal hell is not a Christian invention, the ancient Greeks already had that.
JGabriel
Dennis G.:
I always think of the Village Voice when I see it. I suppose that’s where I first read about it.
.
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
Not only have I met John Lasseter, I’ve been hugged by him. (Not that that’s unusual. He hugs everybody. He’s a very outgoing guy.)
You may drool in envy now.
grung0r
Mnemosyne:
I truly apologize for assuming you were a Christian. I would never want to tar someone with that unfairly.
So, the seven circles of hell, being tortured for all eternity, and the mention of blasphemy were from that Night Gallery episode then? I’ve seen that episode, and I don’t remember those parts.
ReallyWyldPyrate
@Mnemosyne:
Well, tell him to get his annoying smirk off good anime DVDs.
“Hi, I’m John Lasseter”.
“Yes, we know, now kindly fuck off out of the way of our anime enjoyment”
Church Lady
If only we could all be a pure as dengre. Why, I bet he walks in the shadow of Jesus every minute of every day and children stand in awe of his kindness and perfection.
Actually, he has a mean streak in him a mile wide, which is made obvious by his casual damning of someone to hell over their perceived sins. Political sins at that. I may not think a whole lot of Ralph Reed, but dengre is a real piece of shit. With the blackness of his heart, perhaps he is the one that might worry about an afterlife in one of Dante’s circles of hell.
JGabriel
I guess Ralph is looking for someone to crucify.
.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I’m trying to dissect this, and I’m thinking it relates to this:
So he wrote about bad shit. At least I think that’s how his thought process is going. Or else he has some major splainin to do.
@Mnemosyne: I should hate you. Instead I’ll just stew in mad jealousy.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Yutsano: I went to high school with a guy who now works at Dreamworks. Can’t say I really know him though. Is that good enough for some mild envy?
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Yeah, that would make sense. I’m just a bit gobsmacked because that came out of nowhere. Unless he thought I was directing it at you and was defending your honor or something.
Yutsano
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): Six degrees is better than none I guess. I say you take what you can get and run with it. Hell Ben Stein almost ran over me on a bicycle!
Clarity edit: Ben was on the bike. I was walking on the sidewalk on Santa Monica beach.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@grung0r: You know that the circles of hell and eternal torment aren’t really mentioned in the Bible either, right? I mean, there’s a passing reference to the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, but there’s no mention of souls being tortured in said lake. All that craziness was extrapolated later by people who got off on torture.
Mnemosyne
@grung0r:
No, the seven circles of hell, torture and blasphemy are all from Dante’s Inferno, which is not, you may be surprised to hear, a book in the Bible, but an epic poem written in the 14th century.
In fact, there’s virtually nothing about Hell in the actual Bible, much less a Hell where people burn eternally. That’s a piece of dogma that developed as Christianity developed and, as other people have pointed out, was probably adopted from the Greek notion of Tartarus.
But these ideas about eternal punishment entered into our culture over the centuries, which is why you have secular shows like “Night Gallery” featuring bad people suffering for all eternity in a non Christian specific way.
ETA: When Church Lady is on your side with something like this, you know you’ve gotten off on the wrong track. Just sayin’.
JGabriel
@Church Lady:
You talk as if political sins are just dust motes to overlook, which is pretty ironic coming from an ostensible Christian. You do realize that Christ’s crucifixion, if we take the Gospels at their word, was largely political, right?
Seems an odd thing for a self-described “Church Lady” to pooh-pooh. As far as I can see, most of the world’s worst sins are political.
.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Church Lady: Just to piggyback on what JGabriel said, Reed’s “political sins” caused a fair amount of suffering and were steeped in quite a bit of hypocrisy. If you’re the type to believe in a vengeful God, then it’s perfectly reasonable (as far as that word can be used in a discussion about religious belief and the afterlife) to suggest that someone like Reed might be facing harsh judgment.
grung0r
Brian S:
I do know that, yes, but it is a distinct Christian(well, at least abrahamic) mythology, one that was not specificity contained in the Night Gallery episode, which is where Mnemosyne suggested Dennis had gotten it.
Mnemosyne
Now if you want to see who had some great eternal punishments, go with Norse mythology, I always say:
Neil Gaiman had a great version of this scene in one of the Sandman comics, I think in Season of Mists.
ReallyWyldPyrate
@Church Lady:
If eternity in Dante’s Inferno means never dealing with a syphilitic baboon like you again, then sign me up, you primping fart-knocker.
freelancer
@asiangrrlMN:
Okay, sorry. I was being subtle and very very meta. Lemme do a quick breakdown.
You wrote and I replied:
I was illustrating the difference between writing about wanting someone to experience bad shit aka your commonly used expression involving oxidized farm tools and actually doing bad shit aka Gitmo.
Sorry this sailed over your head, I thought you’d be hip to it, I mean when have I ever been a raging asshole to good people?
Mnemosyne
@grung0r:
Yeah, why would I say something crazy about a “Night Gallery” episode that influenced Dennis to say that just because Dennis said a “Night Gallery” episode influenced his saying that?
I don’t know where I get these crazy ideas from.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Mnemosyne: The Greeks were pretty good with that stuff too: Tantalus bound, given eternal hunger and thirst with food and water always just out of reach; Sisyphus with the rock he can never get to the top of the hill; Prometheus bound to the crag, his liver eaten every day by a giant eagle, only to have it grow back. Humans are some sick fucks when we want to be.
Thing I always liked about the Greeks, though, was that they didn’t tend to look to their gods for moral guidance. Their goal tended to be more to propitiate them and stay the hell out of their way whenever possible. They knew their gods were monsters, and so tried to find workarounds whenever possible.
asiangrrlMN
@freelancer: Whew! I was puzzled because it’s not like you to just go off like that with no provocation. You were just illustrating the point like Yutsy said (smart guy). Cool. I don’t have to (pitch)fork you now! And, yes, sometimes the subtle humor goes over my head.
grung0r
Mnemosyne:
Oh, so Dennis doesn’t believe because it’s Christian dogma? That makes tons of sense. Maybe he doesn’t believe other things he said either. maybe he really likes Reed! Unlike what Karen Armstrong says, people do actually believe the religions they profess to.
freelancer
@Yutsano:
Sorry to worry you both. Sometimes I’m a shade too obscure, or a bit too meta like that time I showed up to the birthday party of my teabagger relative in full Nazi regalia. My point was lost on EVERYONE, except my blonde uncle Gunter, but he was adopted so that’s just a statistical anomaly.
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
And to continue (though I really should go to bed), no, the idea of eternal punishments did not come from the Abrahamic mythology underlying the Bible. Ask any Jew and s/he will tell you that there is no such thing as Hell, because it’s just not part of Judaism.
Christianity is very much a syncretic religion, and one of the things that was synthesized into it was other cultures’ ideas about the afterlife. The Greeks and Romans had much more influence on Christian ideas of Hell than any writings in the Old Testament, and more stuff got loaded on top once Christianity started spreading out into the rest of Europe.
For a less fraught example than Hell, see David Sedaris’ “Jesus Shaves,” where he finds himself trying to explain the Easter Bunny to a class full of French people, who shake their heads and tell him that everyone knows that Easter candy comes from a giant bell that flies in from Rome.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@grung0r: Here’s a question for you–do you believe? Because if you do, then it makes sense that you’d be all bent out of shape about Dennis’s statement. But if you don’t, if you think it’s all a bunch of hogwash, then big fucking deal, unless you’re just trying to score purity points or something.
And if you do actually believe in a hell based on eternal damnation, then I think it says a lot more about you than you realize.
asiangrrlMN
@freelancer: OK. That’s just funny. Someone showed up at the Halloween party I went to as a zombie teabagger. I snorted over that one.
ETA: To be fair to Yutsy, he was pretty sure you were snarking. He’s smart. That’s why I fake-married him (and for his monies).
Yutsano
@freelancer: Pics or it never happened. Plus the major sexual stimulation it would have given them would still be in effect. You’d be better than the little blue pill!
@grung0r: You do realize you’re no longer making any sense, amirite?
P.S. I haz major dilemma. I want to go to sleep, but kitteh is on my bed in such a way that I can’t settle in without disturbing her. Halp!
Mnemosyne
@grung0r:
Not knowing exactly what flavor of Christian Dennis might be, I don’t really know. Given that ironic punishments in Hell have made it into episodes of “The Simpsons,” I don’t think you should take a tossed-off comment based on an episode of “Night Gallery” as a pure expression of Christian dogma.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Disturb her. She will adjust quickly and go right back to sleep. Yes, she will glare, but she will get over it.
freelancer
@asiangrrlMN:
I know the guy is smart, that’s why we’re buds. And yeah, he totally picked up on it, and whether it was intellect or the willingness to give me the benefit of the doubt, there’s a case to be made that no matter what, he’s a good guy.
@Yutsano:
Yeah right, who would be dumb enough to get themselves caught dressing like fucking NAZI’s? I mean, seriously, I might wanna run for Congress someday. That’s a non-starter. You must be some kind of fucking moron.
Mnemosyne
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
G and I got sucked into the 1980s version of Clash of the Titans the other day and, for all of its (many many) faults, I always thought they got the spirit of the Greek gods spot-on, with their petty bickering and constant undercutting of each other.
Plus the Ray Harryhausen effects! Sure, they don’t look “realistic” anymore, but they’re still pretty amazing animation.
Yutsano
@freelancer:
Prince Harry. Too soon? :)
@Mnemosyne: I’m not certain you want to fall down that particular rabbit hole. That way lay madness, and logic is definitely not that one’s strong suit.
Oh and crisis averted: she moved under her own volition.
Mnemosyne
@freelancer:
Or be third in line for the British throne. You never know.
ETA: Ha! Yutsano only beat me to the Prince Harry joke by a few seconds!
Mnemosyne
I need to get up and get ready for bed, but there’s some kind of weird cat bathing ritual going on that I’m reluctant to interrupt. Keaton is bathing Annie while Charlotte is bathing Keaton and, well, I’m not sure this is meant for human eyes.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: It was kind of low-hanging fruit there you have to admit. And typing low hanging fruit just made me crave avocados. The Dawg may have some splainin to do if the rabbit died here.
NobodySpecial
Will the last Christian out the door please NOT turn out the lights? Thanks.
asiangrrlMN
@Mnemosyne: Pics! Or does that make me a perv?
Anyway, time for me to write. Night, all.
Mnemosyne
@asiangrrlMN:
‘Night — write copiously! I’m behind, but I’m up to about 12,000 words. There’s a local NaNoWriMo write-in on Saturday that I may go to in order to get caught up. G is so enthusiastic he offered to drive me to make sure I go. He is a very silly man sometimes. :-)
ETA: I’m brushed and flossed and washed up, so I’m heading to bed as well. Kitty bath orgy broke up before I could find the camera, but it was pretty darn adorable.
Dennis G.
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
The word “Christianity” may not have been the best word to use as it could mean organized religion as oppose to the inspiration for that organizing. I meant here as an indication of the latter and not the former, but I can see how it could be a term of confusion if you take it to mean the impact of organized “Christian” Religion. The blood on the hands of that effort has created a permanent stain.
Cheers
annamissed
A good way to look at Piss Christ – and put it into proper perspective – is to compare it to Gauguin’s Yellow Christ from 1889. The symbolic meaning for the color yellow is is renewal/rebirth, and is used by Christians on Easter. In the Gauguin painting the yellow Christ is the same yellow as the fields, in anticipation of harvest or renewal of cycle. Many think Gauguin featured himself as the yellow Christ in anticipation of his budding career. Maybe Serrano was using a similar symbolism. Not that the likes of Ralph Reed or most Christians would ever have the subtlety to see it.
grung0r
Mnemosyne:
So, your arguments went from ‘grung0r is putting up a strong defense of Reed’ to ‘Maybe Dennis didn’t really mean it becuase the Simpsons made fun of the idea of hell one time, and he mentioned Night Gallery’.
Deeply blasphemous. That’s what the dude said. He thinks people should be tortured for all eternity because they are “deeply blasphemous”. Was he channeling the Simpsons? Night Gallery?
Dennis G.
@grung0r:
I use Ralph’s rhetoric and imagery to construct a fantasy end out of Ralph’s twisted con. That you treat it all as literal and proceed from there indicates a rigid world view IMHO. To write about Ralph’s twisted take of Christ and how Ralph organizes gullible people of faith into doing things at odds with the reported dictates of the faith does not necessarily make me a Christian or even a believer. It is interesting to watch you use your X-man like powers to define the faiths of people you interact with on the internets. Have fun that.
Cheers
@Church Lady:
actually, my mean streak is a mile and a half wide and so are my flaws. As for Ralph, I’m not certain that my saying–in terms that Ralph uses about many other–that he should go to hell (whatever that might mean) is really the worst thing, But as Ralph is one of yours and a hypocritical lying little prick, I can see how defending and protecting him could make you angry. OTOH, you could just give up on Ralph and other grifters like him, but then what would you have to say on the internets.
grung0r
Dennis G.
If you would like to correct me on your religious predilections, feel free. it is interesting to watch you scolding me for making an assumption you refuse to repudiate.
Dennis G.
@Mnemosyne:
One has to love the skim readers. Their misreading of prose is what makes so many threads so much fun through the night.
The Night Gallery reference was related to the Dorian Gray reference and the idea that the work of art, Piss Christ, was about people like Ralph. And if the afterlife a person like Ralph was always describing came to pass that it would be great for Ralph to live out eternity in that piece of art. Now that brought into the discussion some references to a political poem from some years ago that used images of Hell to make some points and generate some images that have stood the test of time.
I’ve long ago learned that some folks read with comprehension (thanks for that) and that others do not.
And while it is nice of you to try and point this stuff out to the skim readers, it really is a dead-end. Certain keywords always set them off on their favorite rants and there is really nothing you can do but sit back and watch. But it does keep the thread alive, so all is good.
Thanks and cheers
Dennis G.
@grung0r:
I’m not scolding you. I’m just pointing out that you do not know what you’re talking about.
I get it that you have issues with religion, faith, myths and beliefs. And I understand that it is important to you to categorize folks into the boxes of your choosing. Good luck with that, but you’ll have to fit me into the box of your choice without my help.
I think we both know that whatever you decide you will be wrong and that works for me.
Cheers
Xenos
I always thought the whole point of Serrano’s picture was that aside from the title you would never know that the crucifix was suspended in urine. One could easily do this with a crucifix suspended in colored water, or even in clear water (or no water, just behind a container of clear water) with a yellow filter over the lens.
This goes right to the sort of conceptual issues some artists were dealing with at the time, too. Since there is no proof that the crucifix actually was suspended in urine, what people are getting upset about is the claim of blasphemy, in the title of the piece, that somehow can make the ambiguous picture blasphemous. A pretty neat exercise, really, but not something I would be eager to purchase and put on my wall.
The ideal set up would be, some 20 years later, to release a videotape showing the production of the shot, revealing that all this scandal had been about nothing.
Then again, sometimes a Piss Christ is just a Piss Christ.
grung0r
Dennis G.
How could you possibly come to that conclusion? Did you use your X-Men powers? Or maybe you made an assumption about me based on something I wrote. But…but…That’s IMPOSSIBLE! No one can do that! It must have been the X-Men Powers. Yeah, That’s the ticket.
Given that +75% of United States population identifies as one, if being a Christian is a box, it is a rather large and varied one. I assumed you were a Christian. You are still free to correct me on that assumption. We both know why you won’t.
Resident Firebagger
I’ve often thought that going to hell wouldn’t be so bad if I got to see people like Ralph Reed (and Dick Cheney and about eleventy gazillion of our other pol rat fuckers from the past 40 years or so) get their just reward. I imagine myself as the Nelson Mundt of the dark side, sitting in my own little corner of the eternal inferno, just pointing and laughing at these miserable pieces of crap.
I know, you’re not supposed to get the hell of your choosing. Still, it’s not like I’ll ever see any of these scum bags brought to justice in this world.
When it comes down to it, I am a vengeful little prick…
Marlowe
Jesus Himself was a con artist, so the Ralph Reeds of the world are merely following in His path. It’s hardly blasphemy to emulate the Master.
bjacques
I remember that Night Gallery episode well. The war criminal had been exposed, and he fled into the museum at night and ran to the gallery was and wished really hard to be in that painting. Except it had been switched with another.
So I’m old enough to remember, when the Republicans, led by Sen. Jesse Helms, tried to get the National Endowment for the Arts defunded for making four controversial grants versus thousands of non-controversial ones. I think it was the 6th circle of the Inferno where givers of evil counsel went.
@Brian S:
The Greek underworld updated (from an 1842 satire called Un Autre Monde):
<A |HREF="Crossing the Styx
Ixion’s fiery wheel.
Tantalus tormented by the water-sellers in the park (and Sisyphus in the background).
toujoursdan
@Calouste:
Actually hell came from the Zoroastrians, along with angels, demons, Satan and a Final Judgment. The Jews encountered it during the Persian exile, you’ll find references to them in the OT and these beliefs were common in Jesus’ day.
thm
Piss Christ is a statement on the power of culture: it is a juxtaposition of vulgarity and purification, but which is which depends on where you come from. In the Western Christian tradition, Christ died for your sins, etc., and so Christ purifies your soul, and bodily fluids such as urine are thought to be disgusting. But without the cultural baggage of Christianity, you see a man who has been brutally killed by being nailed to a piece of wood, and you have the urine which removes unneeded substances from the body, purifying it in some way. So of the two elements in the piece, which is the vulgar one, and which is the symbol of purification?
Paris
I always thought Piss Christ was beautiful. I never could understand the poutrage.
zoe kentucky
I wish I believed in hell just so that Ralph Reed can go there.
Anton Sirius
Poor troll. grung0r came so close to winning this thread, then he fucked it up.
vtr
1) If you create a photograph that looks like a crucifix in amber, but have to point out that the yellow stuff is actually supposed to be urine, you lose. Without the title, the photograph is useless.
2) Jesus’ position on the capital gains tax reductions is unknown, except to people like Reed who pose for profit as Christians. Jesus said those who would follow him should give their earthly possessions to support the poor and live a simple life.
alex milstein
I think the nun/art critic’s response to Piss Christ was quite good.
I remember my first reaction to the image when the ‘controversy’ was originally manufactured.
I thought the message was that even when the image of Christ is submerged in urine (interpreted by me as the filth and waste of humanity), it still glows, and shines through as a thing of beauty. That it transcends all the crap around it.
Then again, I’m Jewish. What would I know?
Tim Connor
@Joseph Nobles: If you want to understand how little Ralph Reed and his ilk care about Jesus, go re-read the Brothers Karamazov passage about the Grand Inquisitor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Inquisitor
If they catch him, they’ll kill him even faster than DFH’s like me.
Michael
@handy:
It was the Christianists who definitely made an atheist out of me. I was a comfortable, secure, not particularly dogmatic Christian who was sort of sleepwalking through and blindly supporting my faith without thinking too much about it. As the strident voices went on about inerrancy while complaining about those of less stern adherence to The Word, I began seriously examining the theology and finding it to be a pathetic joke, drilled into me through conditioning in my youth.
That’s why prayer in schools, public Christian observances and cretardism are so important as policy goals to them – if you’re not acculturated to it, it can’t take root.
shargash
I remember the episode well. For those who are curious, the painting was Edvard Munch’s The Scream.
Pete Guither
It’s good to see, through reading the comments, that the “Piss Christ” image has affected people in different ways – that’s the power of art. It can even transcend the original artist’s intentions. Unfortunately, Congress doesn’t know how to view art, and all they could see was blasphemy.
To me, “Piss Christ” is a powerful religious statement, relating to what some others have mentioned above.
The crucifix is supposed to be a horrific image, pointing out the incredible sacrifice of Christ dying in a particularly brutal and painful way for our sins. However, as a symbol, over the years, the crucifix has lost its power and has become a nice piece of elegant jewelry, or a little bit of plastic dangling from the rear view mirror.
The purpose of urine is to remove the poisons from the body, just as Christ took on the poisons from our souls. To see Him immersed in that pool of disgusting urine drives home how big His action was, and brings back the power of the symbol.
Powerful artistic statement.
Note: I write this not as a Christian, but as an artist.
benjoya
sister wendy gives christianity a good name.
JoyfulA
As an actual church lady, I read this post as a powerful and intriguing sermon.
Dennis G.
@grung0r:
My reason is a dialog with you is not worth my time. What’s yours? Do we both have the same answer?
That would be awesome.