If you don’t understand why Karl Rove’s remarks are pissing off Democrats, let’s look at some more of the remarks:
“Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers,” Rove said. “Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war.”
Rove, President Bush’s chief political advisor, spoke at the state Conservative Party’s annual dinner. He praised the conservative movement’s success, calling it “the guiding philosophy for the White House, the Senate, the House.”
Rove said the Democratic Party made the mistake of calling for “moderation and restraint” after the terrorist attacks.
Just a quick trip down the memory hole brings up the September 14th Congressional Resolution, which states:
To authorize the use of United States armed forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.
Whereas, on Sept. 11, 2001, acts of despicable violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and
Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad, and
Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence, and
Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States,
Whereas the president has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States.
Resolved by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
Section 1. Short Title
This joint resolution may be cited as the “Authorization for Use of Military Force”
Section 2. Authorization for Use of United States Armed Forces
(a) That the president is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on Sept. 11, 2011, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements
(1) Specific Statutory Authorization — Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) Applicability of Other Requirements — Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
It passed the House 420-1 and passed the Senate 98-0, with nary a mention of indictments, therapy, or calls for understanding . The one vote against was Barbara Lee.
My party no longer is merely content selling our bullshit. We are now starting to believe it. I’d say Mr. Rove has an apology to issue.
And then there is this (via Crooks and Liars):
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.), who joined Pryce at the press conference, told Cybercast News Service that it “is just inconceivable and truly incorrigible that in the midst of the war, that the Democratic leaders would be conducting guerrilla warfare on American troops…”
Beato’s write-up of this is pretty damned funny.
More here.
Joe Gandelman pretty much sums up my feelings:
Let me get this straight: Republicans who were upset over the over-the-top remarks of Senator Richard Durbin and the pungent comments of Senator Harry Reid are now defending Karl Rove accusing liberals and Democrats of not wanting to fight terrorism
j
Yeah, right. That’ll happen. Should, but won’t. IOKIYAR.
Jeff Harrell
You’re kind of off in the weeds on this one, John. The Democrats’ attitude toward terrorism is clear as crystal, and is epitomized by Sen. Kerry’s remark during the campaign that terrorism should be treated as a nuisance.
Karl Rove, of course, was speaking figuratively, not literally. You know, kind of like how Sen. Durbin was speaking figuratively on the Senate floor. If you want to argue that he was literally wrong, go ahead, but you’ll be off by yourself, I think.
Tim F
You knew the freep would come out in defense. The church of George W. Christ is a suicide cult, didntchaknow.
Rick
Hey, it’s just firing up the base. It’s considered shrewd when Kool-Aid Powered Howard does it for the Dems.
And John, the Dems “got over it” pretty quickly. Except for Lieberman and a very few others.
Like Jeff said, your off in the weeds. Or smoking some.
Cordially…
John Cole
Oh, bullshit, both of you.
Rove stated they had no desire to do anything tough about terrorism, while Republicans were preparing for war. The resolution shows that the opposite is true.
Kerry stated during his campaign (umm, 3 years later) that he thought less emphasis on the military and more emphasis on law enforcement was necessary.
That was something I disagreed with then and still do, but to attempt to claim that liberals only want therapy and understanding for terrorists and that the only thing liberals want to do is to put our troops at danger is either an outrageous and indefensible smear or a god damned lie.
Take your pick.
Jim Allen
Gee, Jeff, you’d better invest in a weed whacker of your own. John Kerry said, “We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they’re a nuisance
DR
The main issue here is that Rove, a political hatchet man, has INVENTED motives and ascribed them to Democrats.
Sorry to clarify what you would love to see continue to be muddled, but when Kerry talked about terrorism, he was referring to the fact that contrary to Bush’s insinuations at the time (which he himself has since retracted), Terrorism would be something we’d have to contend with for the long run, just like we have to contend to violent crime. Does that make violent crime insignificant? No. All it means is that the methods use to combat it are very different from that used in a nation-to-nation war.
DougJ
Rove’s comments are right on the money. In fact, I don’t think he goes far enough. As Bill O’Reilly said a few days ago, people like Durbin and the people on Air America are engaging in treason. They should be jailed. An apology simply isn’t good enough.
Mike S
I’m not sure what your policy is on reposting comments from another thread but this is what I wrote in a previous thread.
The politics of division. In 2001 everyone knew we were in this together. Today, not so much.
I’m so tired of this “hate America” and “want us to lose” crap. We disagree on tactics and paths to making this country better. We even disagree at times on what makes this country great. But that is far different than what is being said here. And I am tired of it.
Everybody here must have friends from the opposing party. How many of those friends hate America? If you’re like me, not a single one. Or they wouldn’t be our friends. It’s time to get reasonable and rational again. It’s time to debate on the merits of the arguments as opposed to assigning nefarious motives. Neither side is blamelss in all of this but it will take both sides to put and end to it.
Jim Allen
Great. Now we’re going to be trying people for treason on Falafel O’Reilly’s say so?
Matt
“They should be jailed.”
Jesus Christ, what happened to discourse in this country?
Jeff Harrell
I can’t distance myself from what Doug said fast enough. “Treason?” Are you out of your mind?
But I renew my earlier comment. I think Rove’s statements last night were a very valid description of the difference between the conservative position on the war and the liberal position on the war, particularly in light of the recent hand-wringing about how mean we’re being to terrorist prisoners when we don’t handle their holy book with literal kid gloves.
Tim F
Jim,
John’s earlier post was titled ‘Rorscach test’ for good reason. You’ll see Sullivan come out against, and maybe a few more, but mostly silence or horseshit like the ‘nuisance’ story. Most rightwing bloggers have realized by now that you’re supposed to put ‘Movement’ before ‘Conservative.’
There exists more than one type of conservative blogger. This story will give you the best opportunity yet to tell the independent-minded from those who, shall we say, don’t necessarily write their own stuff.
Joshua
Verrrry classy, Doug. But tell me, who will you then blame for the problems in Iraq once all the ‘traitors’ have been jailed?
Jim Allen
Tim, I’m sure you’re right, but guys like John here are the exception in my experience.
For that matter, John is a rarity in that he’s a conservative blogger who allows (and encourages) comments. Most conservative sites are too cowardly to do that.
hilzoy
Thanks, John.
Jim Allen
Tim, I’m sure you’re right, but guys like John here are the exception in my experience.
For that matter, John is a rarity in that he’s a conservative blogger who allows (and encourages) comments. Most conservative sites are too cowardly to do that.
Kimmitt
Everybody here must have friends from the opposing party.
Family, yes. Friends? There’s only so many times one can enjoy being accused of wanting the terrorists to win, thanks.
Stormy 70
When the War on Terror gets hard, the Dems start bailing. For example, the Afghan Quagmire talk, one week after the war started, from the liberals. The Dems are not trusted to keep America safe for a reason, the track record has been to bail, and not stick it out. Kerry could not even articulate a plan for the War on Terror that was based in reality. Just vague platitudes. Meanwhile, Bush was saying we would hunt down terrorists and punish them, no matter how long it takes. I am still filled with rage over 9/11, and the only party even mentioning it,are the Republicans. Rove is right, liberals cannot be trusted to prosecute the War on Terror. Clinton proved their ineptness.
Mike S
You need to get out more. There are plenty that don’t engage in those beliefs.
norbizness
Because nothing says Ultimate Level 12 Seriousness level like manufacturing a second war (also supported by a large number of the people Rove is villifying) that has taken limb or life of 15,000 soldiers and provided a training ground for a new generation of terrorists.
I mean, I wanted to hug al-Zarqawi, at that time sequestered in the unreachable no-fly zone areas of Northern Iraq, and maybe knit him a tea cozy. But I was overridden.
I always wanted to take seriously the “with us or against us” paradigm when it came to Pakistan’s selling nuclear technology and coddling the remaining Taliban and al-Qaeda leadership within its borders. Once again, I didn’t realize how this would morph into my hating the President, the country, the troops, my own mother, and warm, furry kittens.
DougJ
Look: during the Civil War, Lincoln imposed martial law. During WWII, FDR interned Japanese-Americans. We’re now engaged in a comparable struggle. Why shouldn’t we intern Michael Moore, Michael Isikioff, etc.? I’m not saying that we send them to Gitmo, I’m just saying they should be interned until the war is over, so they can’t undermine the war effort anymore.
Is that so extreme?
John Cole
Oh, shut the fuck up, Doug.
Ron
And I think Jeff is 100% full of shit. The liberal problem with Iraq wasn’t that we were attacking terrorists, it’s that we weren’t attacking terrorists. The Special Forces units hunting bin Laden got pulled off the chase so that they could gather intel on Iraq. So went the entire US military infrastructure.
Now bin Laden is free and his troops have the best urban-warfare training ground one could imagine. What more could he possibly want? Torture and religious cruelty by US troops pretty much tops the list. Nothing better for recruiting a new generation of zealots. Is ‘hand-wringing’ bad for US interests? Excusing torture is worse.
Now comes the vituperative reply. I’m a traitor? You’re a traitor! and so on. The best thing our enemies could ask for is for America to tear itself apart while they sit back and laugh. Thanks Rove.
Flint
Rove is a political hack, so what does anyone expect?
As to apologies… I want to know why there are still articles appearing where Marines are asking for fund raisers to buy them body armor and why we keep hearing about inadequate armor on the vehicles in Iraq?
With all of the money that has been appropriated for the war… this deserves an apology and an investigation. Screw the rhetoric!
ppgaz
Well, after a while, this material just becomes repetitious and tedious.
Criticism of the potatoheads is “treason.”
Iraq insurgency is in its “last throes.”
Two years ago, we could proclaim “mission accomplished.”
After a while, even people who aren’t really paying attention … which is a helluva lot of people, who are busy managing their lives and taking care of their kids and trying to make a living …. start to wonder: Is ANYTHING these people say actually believable, or is all just ad copy? Manipulation.
To me, the answer is obvious. Others in here eat up the official DC bullshit and swear that those potatohead pronouncements reflect reality and the truth. There is no reality beyond the GOP talking points.
Over time, a pattern emerges. A pattern of obfuscation, deception, distraction and deflection, bald-faced lying and intimidation and browbeating …. anything, and I mean anything, other than the simple and unvarnished truth. It doesn’t matter what the subject is.
There was no “right” vs “left” position on the war, until it became clear that the war was promulgated on false pretenses and bad intelligence. If the people had been given the true and correct facts from the get-go, there would have actually BEEN a debate before the war. There wasn’t. There wasn’t any real debate because the issues put on the table didn’t leave a lot of room for debate. Apparently the powers that be didn’t trust the people with the straight facts and the unvarnished and unspun version of the story. We didn’t go to Iraq to “liberate” it, because nobody proposed that as a causus belli before the fact. That choice wasn’t offered. Apparently the people weren’t trusted with that simple decision. We had to be manipulated through a six-month exercise in faux statesmanship and phony threat mongering.
This is George Bush’s war. He is the one who turned it into a political issue. The people did not do that. The people were never offered an opportunity to either do that, or not. The people were lied to. The people are not amused.
Tim F
And I think Jeff is 100% full of shit. The liberal problem with Iraq wasn’t that we were attacking terrorists, it’s that we weren’t attacking terrorists. The Special Forces units hunting bin Laden got pulled off the chase so that they could gather intel on Iraq. So went the entire US military infrastructure.
Now bin Laden is free and his troops have the best urban-warfare training ground one could imagine. What more could he possibly want? Torture and religious cruelty by US troops pretty much tops the list. Nothing better for recruiting a new generation of zealots. Is ‘hand-wringing’ bad for US interests? Excusing torture is worse.
Now comes the vituperative reply. I’m a traitor? You’re a traitor! and so on. The best thing our enemies could ask for is for America to tear itself apart while they sit back and laugh. Thanks Rove.
Jeff Harrell
Doug is representative of the reason why I shut down comments on my own blog and stopped reading comments on others’. He’s clearly not interested in public debate. He’s just being an ass.
DougJ
“The liberal problem with Iraq wasn’t that we were attacking terrorists, it’s that we weren’t attacking terrorists.”
What about the connections between Zarqawi and Saddam Hussein?
What about the secret meetings with Mohamed Otta in Prague?
Saddam, at the very least, created a safe have for terrorists. Some of the liberals are doing much the same with their comments.
Jim Allen
Re: “Oh, shut the fuck up, Doug”.
Thank you, sir. I was trying to compose a response to him, but my fingers were sputtering. I prefer yours to what I was would have come up with.
Tim F
What the hey? I can’t explain the name in that double post by me. Maybe firefox is diddling with my forms.
Redleg
DougJ,
Should an armed liberal be permitted to put a bullet between your eyes as a pre-emptive strike against you sending us liberals to concentration camps?
Think about it doofus.
Jim Allen
Dammit, redleg, now I have to rethink my knee-jerk opposition to gun control!
gratefulcub
They are losing their grip on America. They are scared, and they are lashing out. We haven’t seen anything yet.
Now that 3 in 5 believe the war was a bad idea, isn’t it a little dumb to call 60% of the electorate traitors.
I smell another terror alert coming.
Redleg
Jim,
If creeps like DougJ have their way, you may want to arm yourself.
Jimmy Jazz
My party no longer is merely content selling our bullshit. We are now starting to believe it.
Having been linked here from some or other liberal blog, I will say:
1) Thanks for stating the obvious.
2) It’s not your party anymore, it’s Dobson’s.
Until you “reasonable” Republicans (and yes, I’m aware you exist) DEMAND that the Coulters, Savages, and Roves stop the eliminationist and “libs are traitors” rhetoric that Karl Rove stole from the post-WWI German playbook we can’t even begin a dialogue.
Stormy 70
Why are the liberals more afraid of Republicans, than terroists? Maybe you feel safe because there are troops fighting actual terrorists over there, so you can bitch about mean Republicans over here.
Rick
It’s wonderful how much Rovemaster is in soooo many heads. Not wonderful in John Cole’s case, but all you other fellers.
Mwwuu-ah-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Cordially…
Just some guy
Rove’s statement is offensive to any of us that didn’t vote for Bush (he ain’t a conservative ya’ know) and yet did all we could to help those that were directly effected by the WTC attack. I don’t remember seeing Rove down at 1 World Trade Center helping in the cleanup efforts; housing displaced Battery Park City residents; or donating/passing out goods to New Yorkers. Rove didn’t watch the WTC fall from his living room window. Rove doesn’t ride a train every day that goes through the crater that used to be the World Trade Center. And I wonder if Rove lost any good friends in the WTC collapse?
For all of the “liberals” to which any of the above applies to, he owes a personal apology.
Mike S
Zarqawi was in the “Northern No Fly Zone.” If the reports are true that we chose not to bomb him and the Al Aqsua(sp?) Brigade before the war started then that argument goes the way of the aluminium tubes.
Geek, Esq.
Bush Republicans are today’s McCarthyites.
Claiming that liberals opposed military action and want our troops to die is an absolute lie and worthy of Stalin.
Yeah, I said Stalin. If people like Rove don’t want to be compared to Stalin, he shouldn’t talk like Stalin.
But I won’t call Rove and his ilk Nazis. ‘”Proto-fascists” is a much better term.
I really, really hope that the Dems can take over at least one branch of Congress in 2006. Then the investigations into the criminal enterprise can begin.
Tim F
Bush chose not to take out Zarqawi when he could because it would hurt his case for war. Does that make the POTUS a traitor?
Jeff A
Weighing in here from the treasonous fringe, I’m a little shocked by the vitriol aimed (still) at liberals. Which party has all the power? Which party drafts all legislation, determines whether any congressional oversight will be exercised to counter executive power, appoints judges, drafts budgets, runs committees, and so on? Which president has such a docile and compliant legislature that he hasn’t seen fit to veto one bill. And yet still it’s the GOP who is thrown into a fit of fury against THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS such that they can no longer distinguish between reality and spin.
I get that the politics is vile and that it’s just business as usual for one party to call another names. But what’s beyond bizarre to me that average citizens now believe the overheated rhetoric. Reading through this thread, it’s clear that some sizeable minority of GOP faithful think that elected American politicians (the Dems they so despise) actually side with terrorists.
We’re the ones out of power who are getting called treasonous all the time. If anyone has a right to believe the rhetoric about the other team, it’s us–who have really gotten the shit kicked out of us for five years. And yet I don’t know anyone who thinks the GOP have worse problems than getting corrupted by their own power. Certainly nothing like thinking they side with America’s enemies.
Jeff A
Weighing in here from the treasonous fringe, I’m a little shocked by the vitriol aimed (still) at liberals. Which party has all the power? Which party drafts all legislation, determines whether any congressional oversight will be exercised to counter executive power, appoints judges, drafts budgets, runs committees, and so on? Which president has such a docile and compliant legislature that he hasn’t seen fit to veto one bill. And yet still it’s the GOP who is thrown into a fit of fury against THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS such that they can no longer distinguish between reality and spin.
I get that the politics is vile and that it’s just business as usual for one party to call another names. But what’s beyond bizarre to me that average citizens now believe the overheated rhetoric. Reading through this thread, it’s clear that some sizeable minority of GOP faithful think that elected American politicians (the Dems they so despise) actually side with terrorists.
We’re the ones out of power who are getting called treasonous all the time. If anyone has a right to believe the rhetoric about the other team, it’s us–who have really gotten the shit kicked out of us for five years. And yet I don’t know anyone who thinks the GOP have worse problems than getting corrupted by their own power. Certainly nothing like thinking they side with America’s enemies.
Stormy 70
At the rate the Dems are going with their “Terrorist Rights” platform, I don’t think 2006 will be a good year. 70% of the country has no problem with Gitmo, maybe that reality will sink in to the “reality-based community”. Proto-fascists, way to break out the ten dollar words. I will send that onto Master Rove, he will be at your door, shortly.
Jeff
I think what Rove said was pretty stupid, but i have to admit i’m amused at the thought that he’s probably sitting in his office right now, feet on desk, sipping a nice rocks-glass of Johnny Walker Blue, laughing hysterically at how easy it is for him to piss off the left.
I do think he’s wrong about liberals being easy on terrorists. Just the other night on Bravo, liberal President Josiah Bartlet took out the Qumari Defense Minister without thinking twice about it.
Stormy 70
Jeff – you are killing me with your crazy talk!
ARROW
Words are cheap. Just look at what Durbin said in 1998 in defense of Clinton’s tough posturing against Saddam Hussein, and the numerous tough statements made by John Kerry early on that he later flipped on. Even the most anti-war politicians signed on to the Resolution you reference. What would expect from politicians less than a week after 911?
It seems pretty clear to me that most of the recent rhetoric from the leftists and “liberals” is in defense of America’s enemies at the expense of the American military efforts in the war on terror. They attack Bush’s policies and attempt to make the war on terror look like a loser, conveniently ignoring the obvious successes that are leading to remarkable changes in the Middle East.
Using inflammatory rhetoric against your political opponents is one thing (Rove
Tim F
Words are cheap.
Yours in particular.
Rick
Bush Republicans are today’s McCarthyites….But I won’t call Rove and his ilk Nazis. ‘”Proto-fascists” is a much better term.
I’m shocked! I’m outraged! I feel my patriotism is being questioned.
Cordially…
P.S. Why, oh why, do lefties hate us so? What have we, the little Eichmanns, done to deserve the pushback? Maybe we can reach out and dialogue.
Just some guy
Nothing like sipping some Johnny Walker Blue while your feet are propped up on the bodies of 3,000 dead Americans.
Jeff
Well, a guy like Karl wouldn’t drink the Red or Black. That stuff sucks.
Kimmitt
Why, oh why, do lefties hate us so?
It’s more a “you” than a “y’all,” Rick-o.
ARROW
Rick-o:
I’m with you!
Rick
The dialogue begins! I’m feeling a breakthrough coming on! Like in Oslo back in the 90s!
Cordially…
James Robertson
Read captain’s Quarters and learn:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/004792.php
Stormy 70
Come back to the Light, Rick! Dialoguing with the Dark Side will only bring pain, and suffering. Stick to what you know, Little Eichman, become the Proto-fascist you were meant to be.
Rick
Stormy,
Is “proto-” distinct from “crypto-” and “neo-?”
Some day, I hope to be awarded my “Ultra-” merit badge, with Shredded Constitution clusters.
Cordially…
over it
From the ‘Families of September 11’….I guess if anyone has a right to be offended by the comments it is them.
“As families whose relatives were victims of the 9/11 terror attacks, we believe it is an outrage that any Democrat, any Republican, any conservative or any liberal, stakes a “high ground” position based upon the September 11th death and destruction. Doing so assumes that all those who died and their loved ones would agree. In truth, some would and some would not. By definition the conduct is divisive and, because it is intended to be self-serving and politicizes 9/11, it is offensive.
We are calling on Karl Rove to resist his temptations and stop trying to reap political gain in the tragic misfortune of others. His comments are not welcome.”
over it
Er….should that be “it is they”?
Whatever the case…I think Rove stepped in it. He should apologize, shake his foot off…and then move on.
If he does not…he is only going to track the mess into the White House. They have enough house cleaning to worry about as it is.
ARROW
“As families whose relatives were victims of the 9/11 terror attacks, we believe it is an outrage that any Democrat, any Republican, any conservative or any liberal, stakes a “high ground” position based upon the September 11th death and destruction.”
This very statement does what it advocates should not be done. As if the “Families of 911” have some claim on the subject.
DC has no vote in Congress
You know, the outrage about Durbin’s comments didn’t have the slightest ring of sincerity. I’m a Jew with family persecuted by Germans and Russians and it didn’t offend me at all. I’m somewhat numb to the overuse of the Nazi and Soviet repression as a metaphor and I understand that the point isn’t that we’re too similar to those evildoers, but that we’re not different enough.
Rove’s comments on the other hand made me want to track him down and punch him in his fat ugly face. I know that’s not very civil to say or think, but I was really really offended. He owes ME an apology. I am so angry about that kind of accusation after I witnessed in person the destruction of on 9/11 and supported the war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The only therapy I need is anger management when I hear what that chickenhawk has to say about liberals.
katiemc
This very statement does what it advocates should not be done. As if the “Families of 911” have some claim on the subject.
Posted by ARROW at June 23, 2005 04:03 PM
What are you talking about you moron. These are family members whose loved ones were killed in the 9-11 attacks. If anyone has a right to have a “claim on this subject” it is they. ( them?) Really that is just ludicrous.
katiemc
This very statement does what it advocates should not be done. As if the “Families of 911” have some claim on the subject.
Posted by ARROW at June 23, 2005 04:03 PM
What are you talking about you moron. These are family members whose loved ones were killed in the 9-11 attacks. If anyone has a right to have a “claim on this subject” it is they. ( them?) Really that is just ludicrous.
Rick
That’s the fightin’ spirit. Now, just turn it on the Religious Right in the Middle East, and we’ll wrap up affairs durn quickly.
I live in DC, and if I could choose between the two, I’d pick “no taxation” over “representation.” But that option never seems to come up in discussion.
Cordially…
SeesThroughIt
Do you actually believe the shit you shovel, Arrow? Or do you just search out the exact wrong outlook on everything and try to defend it for fun?
Jimmy Jazz
They attack Bush’s policies and attempt to make the war on terror look like a loser, conveniently ignoring the obvious successes that are leading to remarkable changes in the Middle East.
You mean like turning a secular, defanged country like Iraq into what the CIA says will be the training ground for the next gen of terrorists while simultaneously grinding away our military and our international credibility? Whose successes are you referring to, Osama’s?
ARROW
katiemc
Get a clue. Suggesting that people not use 911 to make political points, in the midst of making a political point by using your status as a family member of a 911 “victim,” is moronic!
The 911 attacks were attacks on America, not the individuals that died in the attacks, and certainly not their surviving families. The families of these victims WERE NOT the only victims in these attacks.
RSA
This business of criticism of the war being harmful to our troops is interesting, because it’s pretty much irrefutable in a political (though not a logical) sense. But just for the sake of argument, what if, hypothetically speaking, we really do end up losing the war in Iraq, and it’s possible to predict right now? Is there any point at which it becomes okay to say, “We’re losing this war”? For some people, I don’t think there is such a point. For those people, it will always be treasonous to say we’re going to lose no matter what the reality is. Am I wrong about this?
Rick
jazz,
Now, is this the Good CIA, or the Evil CIA you’re quoting? So hard to keep track these days.
Oh, I must mention: what being ground away is the hothead jihadi cannon fodder. But that’s just poor planning.
Cordially…
Svejk
I’m proud of Dem and GOP unity in taking the fight to OBL and the Taliban — c’mon Arrow, save your tizzies for Rove trying to divide us.
Rove wants to divide the USA; he must be working for our enemies. I’ll bet there’s a bunch of uncashed checks from Osama in his bottom left desk drawer.
ARROW
SeesThroughIt
Jimmy Jazz
Stormy 70
Yeah – Foreign Jihadi Terrorists being killed in Iraq is not a bad thing. It is the point. Draw them to the greatest military on Earth and grind them into dust. Do you seriously think all those terrorists casualties are not effective? Europe, for one is safer, as well as America.
The Ultra-crypto-neo-proto-fascist Rethuglican
PS – I outrank you, Rick
David G.
particularly in light of the recent hand-wringing about how mean we’re being to terrorist prisoners when we don’t handle their holy book with literal kid gloves.
Inaccurate. The hand-wringing, so to speak, came from Muslims overseas. Hardly an unexpected reaction. Newsweek didn’t publish a “look how terrible this is!” story, just that it happened. Two different things.
For example, the Afghan Quagmire talk, one week after the war started, from the liberals.
Complete falsehood. In the early days after 9/11, the only division I saw came from the thugs like Falwell who blamed lefties. Afghanistan didn’t start to go badly until our attention was diverted into Iraq.
Meanwhile, Bush was saying we would hunt down terrorists and punish them, no matter how long it takes.
Yes, and how’s that going? Mr. Bin Laden, any thoughts on your punishment?
Weighing in here from the treasonous fringe, I’m a little shocked by the vitriol aimed (still) at liberals. Which party has all the power? Which party drafts all legislation, determines whether any congressional oversight will be exercised to counter executive power, appoints judges, drafts budgets, runs committees, and so on?
I laugh at this too. Saw another idiot comment on another site saying that without the liberal comments at the beginning “we wouldn’t have the problems we have.” Thank you, Sen. Lott.
It seems pretty clear to me that most of the recent rhetoric from the leftists and “liberals” is in defense of America’s enemies at the expense of the American military efforts in the war on terror.
Explain. Support for Afghanistan never waned. Support for Iraq was initially very high. We still haven’t secured Baghdad, for Pete’s sake. Shovel much lately?
Using inflammatory rhetoric against your political opponents is one thing (Rove
Jimmy Jazz
Now, is this the Good CIA, or the Evil CIA you’re quoting? So hard to keep track these days. I assume it’s what’s left of the reality-based CIA, since Hack Goss hasn’t quite succeeded in replacing all the experienced counterterrorism desk officers with AEI interns and Likudnik double agents.
Oh, I must mention: what being ground away is the hothead jihadi cannon fodder. But that’s just poor planning
As opposed to Rummy’s brilliant post-war performance.
Mike S
Cool. The flypaper theory is back in vogue. Draining the swamp seemed just icky.
Your not those things you list. You’re just a typical Hannity Repuvlican, Divide the country and make the opposition an evil empire that must be crushed. You should throw in a little gay hating though. Then you can play with the big boys.
Stormy 70
Hey Mike S – Why don’t you step off. Try reading the archives before you assume I like Sean Hannity or engage in gay hating. Or that I am the troll, here. I know you are super-serious, but alot of the commenters here are regulars who have been disagreeing with each other for awile. Yet we all like each other, because we know how to lighten it up, and we know that people are heart-felt in their opinions. Or do you always insult people you disagree with politically, must be a bitter world you live in.
ARROW
“That’s just a horseshit statement no matter how you read it. This didn’t bother Tom DeLay when he criticized Clinton during Kosovo.”
We aren’t talking about Kosovo, meathead. The fact that Republicans can do the same things as Democrats is irrelevant to my point.
Mike S
Excuse me? It seems to me that I am one of the few people here that even begins to say that both sides of this debate have a love for this country. I have yet to see you do anything other than bash the opposition. Maybe you aren’t a Hannity Republican but you sure do have a knack for his tactic of sliming anything and everything to do with your oppositon
Compare this to any comment you have left on these boards and tell me where you call for unity.
Everybody here must have friends from the opposing party. How many of those friends hate America? If you’re like me, not a single one. Or they wouldn’t be our friends. It’s time to get reasonable and rational again. It’s time to debate on the merits of the arguments as opposed to assigning nefarious motives. Neither side is blamelss in all of this but it will take both sides to put and end to it.
Posted by Mike S at June 23, 2005 02:12 PM
Maybe at some point you have said that neither side escapes blame for the current rhetoric but I sure as hell haven’t seen it. If you want to talk about “insulting” people you disagree with, look in the mirror.
Show me where I said you were a “gay hater.” I said you were using the tactic of division and the only thing missing was gay bating.Also show me where I called you a troll. You have obviously been here far longer than I.
I made my above comment early today and since then there has only been division since. Talk to the other people about being insulting.
ARROW
Mike S:
You are just so misunderstood. I mean, I read your comment as embracing Story70. It was meant to close the gap, and unite the both of you in bipartisan bliss. I don’t know how another meaning could be inferred.
Step off indeed.
W.B. Reeves
Let see, one side calls the others traitors, terrorist symps or enablers, some going so far as to call for their internment, others previously going further, suggesting selective executions to terrorize the opposition.
The second party responds by accusing the first of being an enemy of freedom, seeking to suppress just criticism of its corrupt practices. The second party mutters impotently about impeachable offenses and compares the Government’s treatment of some prisoners to that meted out by the Hitlerites and Stalinists.
The first party is outraged by the comparison and demands an apology. The second party capitulates. Emboldened, the first party amps up its rhetoric against the second.
There are a couple of lessons in this but the one that strikes me most forcifully is the light it sheds on the debate about the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo and other places. Both known and unknown.
In that debate, a number of voices have been heard saying that chaining people up in their own piss and shit for hours on end is an acceptable practice when dealing with terrorist or their allies. This is true even if a few innocents, regretably, get swept up with the guilty. Anyone who publicly criticises this by describing it as torture, or by comparing it to the actions of brutal and despotic regimes of the past, is guilty of endangering U.S. Troops and aiding the enemy.
The compelling question becomes: what constitutes a terrorist or the ally of a terrorist?
Some of these voices have made it quite plain as to what they think being on the “otherside” means. Their definition is not limited to Afghans, Iraqis, or by the borders of the United States. They believe their rhetoric of dissent as treason. They believe that there are traitors among us. Enemies among us. We know what treatment they reserve for enemies.
Someone said that Democrats fear Republicans more than they fear terrorists. I can’t speak for either Democrats or Republicans, but I have been assaulted by people who share the sort of thinking described above. The only terrorist attacks that ever came close to threatening me physically were carried out by Eric Rudolph. If I were a Democrat, I would take cries of treason and aiding the enemy very seriously, considering their source. I wouldn’t worry about offending such people’s sensibilities.
That same voice allowed that it was driven by rage over 9/11. Rage is a bad basis for any action. I think that most folks consider the rage of an individual in their workplace, in their classroom or in the house next door of more immediate concern than terrorist attacks.
One last thing. Fascism, being a form of nationalism, can never be described as unpatriotic. Pseudo patriotic, yes. Like those who support wars as long as someone else does the fighting.
David G.
Using inflammatory rhetoric to denigrate the accomplishments of the American military in the war on terror is another (Senator Kennedy
Mike S
Go to hell spARROW. Your whole schtick is division.
ppgaz
Apparently the Families of Sept 11 organization agrees with me:
June 23, 2005
FOS11 Statement on Comments Made By Karl Rove
As families whose relatives were victims of the 9/11 terror attacks, we believe it is an outrage that any Democrat, any Republican, any conservative, or any liberal stakes a “high ground” position based upon the September 11th death and destruction. Doing so assumes that all those who died and their loved ones would agree. In truth, some would and some would not. By definition the conduct is divisive and, because it is intended to be self-serving and politicizes 9/11, it is offensive. We are calling on Karl Rove to resist his temptations and stop trying to reap political gain in the tragic misfortune of others. His comments are not welcome.
—/
I’m sure the GOP noise machine will find a way to turn this into a theme that says FOS11 hate America.
I predict that it is not long now before people in this country really decide that they’ve had enough of this fucking abuse. These Republican assholes are going to get their comeuppance.
ARROW
“Go to hell spARROW.”
Thanks for the love man.
ARROW
“The fact that Republicans can do the same things as Democrats is irrelevant to my point.”
“And it’s not irrelevant. The fact that they don’t recognize that it was good for them, but now it’s “high treason,” is highly relevant to this discussion.”
The point of this blog is Karl Rove owes Democrats an apology for his comment(s). It has nothing to do with “high treason.” Do you think you can stay focused for a few seconds?
Stormy 70
I have never called anyone on the left anti-American or terrorist loving or unpatriotic, period. Yet, today I have been called an asshole, a troll, a proto fascist, a typical Hannity Republican, and all that is left is to throw some gay hating in. Gee, it’s all sweetness and light with you guys. I don’t consider lefties treasonous for disagreeing with the administration, quit equating me with the people who accuse you of those things.
ARROW
“I’m sure the GOP noise machine will find a way to turn this into a theme that says FOS11 hate America.”
How could anyone come to that conclusion based on the comment you quoted? OTH, one could come to the conclusion that this group is political in nature, that is, they make statements that have political implications.
I don’t know much about this group. What’s the purpose of the organization? Do they speak for all the families that lost loved ones on 9/11?
Mike S
My sincere apoligies if I misread you and your intent. Emotons are running too high and it looks like I got wrapped up in them.
I’m sorry.
filkertom
The point of this blog is Karl Rove owes Democrats an apology for his comment(s). It has nothing to do with “high treason.” Do you think you can stay focused for a few seconds?
ARROW
The point is that Rove et al. believe they can say what they want, no matter how insane,, untrue, and spurious, and expect people to believe them and support them just because it’s being said against their political opposition.
The point is that, rather than substantive debate about serious charges, the Repubs and the Corporate Media have mutated our discourse into a word-analysis shitting contest, where, when a Democrat asks WTF? a Repub says OMG you said F you evil traitor! and all the rest of the Repubs fall in line vilifying the original wording until the Dem recants his phrasing, at which point the Repubs claim victory over the complete obscurement of the original point.
The point is that Karl Rove and his cabal, Bush, Cheney, etc., rather than being elected public servants, consider themselves superior to most everyone else, rightful rulers of a land filled with rabble who exist only to support them with money and blood. They and their actions are about as un-American as it’s possible to get.
I say again, Mr. Cole, thanks for being a reasonable Republican. Nice to know there are still some out there.
Sav
What, no sarcastic comments from John about Harry Reid’s call for Rove to resign?
Stormy 70
Mike S – Apology accepted. Emotions are high and I am drinking a cheap scotch, a deadly combo. :) I have seen some pretty crappy things said today by people on the right about treason and such, so I understand why you would be mad. However, those people are not regular commenters, so I ignore them. If I ever accuse anyone of treason for speaking their mind, you may fall on me like an anvil. And rightly so.
Mike S
Thanks. Enjoy your Scotch. I think I’ll go out and get some fresh air and sunshine. It’s not scotch but it will have to suffice.
ARROW
“The point is that Rove et al. believe they can say what they want, no matter how insane,, untrue, and spurious, and expect people to believe them and support them just because it’s being said against their political opposition.”
Here is the dreadful statement made by Rove about liberals (quoted by John Cole at the top):
“Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers”
Are you truly saying that the above quote is “insane,, untrue, and spurious”? It seems to me that President Clinton dealt with the first WTC bombing by pursuing indictments. I bet if I looked I could find support for this approach being advocated by liberals. And I’m sure I could dig up a ton of comments from liberals about how we provoked the 9/11 attacks.
ppgaz
I find the statement that anyone’s positions on these subjects is “political in nature” to be manipulative, and dishonest.
Everything is political in nature. The government of your country is political in nature. So the fuck what?
I paraphrase (closely) from the statement of Lindsay Graham (R) today during the proceedings in which Mr. Rumsfeld and a few of his uniformed charges appeared before Congress today:
“I have to tell you that in my state, and it’s a most patriotic state, public opinion has turned” (away from this war).
Graham made a good point, although I don’t know what purpose it serves other than to add to the angst: Public opinion is the one thing that endangers our ability to stay and complete our mission in Iraq. He’s right … and who’s to blame for the fall in public opinion? A cowed and impotent press that can’t ask a follow-up question without peeing its pants? The Families of September 11? The American People themselves, the same ones who couldn’t be trusted with the facts and the truth three years ago? Two years ago? Three weeks ago when your government told CNN that the “insurgency is in its last throes” — a remarkable malapropism that one of the generals today, in the hearing, made ridiculous with his assessment that the influx of insurgents today is stronger than ever?
If public opinion turns further against this adventure, until it can no longer be supported, it will be the entire and complete fault of the lying, deceiving potatoheads who got us into it in the first place … and nobody else.
And I am speaking to you as a person who is convinced that failure to finish the job would bring disaster down upon our heads …. we are truly stuck now.
Mike Q
Mike S.,
Why are you apologizing? Stormy70 and Arrow,and Rick, while not saying Rove’s exact words, agree with his sentiment. Yet Stormy, Arrow and Rick get personally offended when you call them the schmucks that they are. I don’t care how you vote, but when you are an ass, be it a right wing or left wing ass, I’ll call you on it. Basically these guys are dickless wonders.
JG
‘I have seen some pretty crappy things said today by people on the right about treason and such, so I understand why you would be mad. However, those people are not regular commenters, so I ignore them. ‘
I would like to ignore them too except that to me they represent the feelings of the majority of republicans in this country. Not the reasoned and well worded comments you read here most of the time. There are lots of people in this country who I’m betting most people here have never met and probably wouldn’t associate with. To put it bluntly they are not educated and can’t follow the issues you find foreign and domestic politics. Those are the people that Rush and the FOX News crowd are playing to. They are easily swayed and pretty much already have a healthy hatred for the left which doesn’t need to be fortified by elected officials spewing the same hatred talking points. Eventually someone will commit an horrific act against one of these ‘treasonous’ senators. IMO the left can live with the right but the right thinks this country can only survive if there is no left. Now that Rove is making certain that the militiary is aligned with the right is it that hard to believe a civil war is brewing?
adam
“My party no longer is merely content selling our bullshit. We are now starting to believe it. I’d say Mr. Rove has an apology to issue.”
Hmmm. Sounds like it’s not your party any more…
guyermo
Arrow, It seems to me that when Clinton saught indictments against the bombers in 1993, he was 100% successful. It also seems to me that Porter Goss claims to know where Osama is, but ‘respects the national soverignty’ of the country he resides in. Why respect that for someone who has directed repeated attacks against our country when we invaded Iraq, who had never directed attacks at Americans outside of its own borders, and NEVER at American civilians?
Jeanne Duffy
I was on a train riding into Grand Central on 9/11, taking my son to a college open house in the Marriott Hotel ground floor WTC. Years ealier, i was sworn into the Coast Guard at the WTC. I’m a LIBERAL. So is all my family – including my NYFD cousin who was there that day, luckily spared. My sister’s stepson is in Iraq today, a Boston boy, whole family voted Kerry.
I am so mad about this pig that I could spit. Sorry if this is incoherent, but to hear this cowardly little draft dodging turd denigrating patriots like me, like my family, exploiting the dead – like the 11 people in my town, Carmel, who died that day, including my friend Bobby Driscoll.
We ALL wanted war that day – against the real enemy. Not one of us ever believed anyone could be such a slimy, fitlhty pig as to exploit our tragedy the way he did. And so long after the fact. How long will he keep profittiing off our dead? How greedy for power are they? Just to cover up Bush’s sagging approval ratings?
carot
If you read Rove carefully he explains what is wrog\ng with the Dems. This is not surprising as he is the politicial genius who is behind their demise. For example he rarely talks about the Dems at all, he always talks about liberals and about how their ideas make them unsuitable to govern.
Also he doesn’t talk about Republicans either, his belief is the Republicans are putting together a political philosophy that guarantees a majority. The Dem’s only chance is to attack this political philosophy as flawed, instead they just call Republicans names. If this philosophy is not flawed then the Democratic Party should disband itself.
ARROW
Mike Q:
I don’t get personally offended when someone calls me a name, I get intellectually offended. Name-calling doesn’t really proof any point, as your comment illustrates. What of any value did you add, other than to shot the messenger?
I simply give what I get. If you call me a moron, or a “dickless wonder,” I will return the favor when the opportunity presents itself.
“I don’t care how you vote, but when you are an ass, be it a right wing or left wing ass, I’ll call you on it”
Using your own criteria, I’d have to say that you, my dickless friend, are an ass.
ARROW
guyermo:
I’ve heard that Bin Ladin is in Iran. Are you suggesting we start a war with Iran to get a person whose death would not end the war on terror? Whose only significance is as a figurehead? I don’t think so…
Jeanne Duffy
Good try, carot. The Republican philosopy doesn’t seem to be going over so well with the American public, if the recent polls (every.damn.one) are any indication.
The Repbulican philosophy is to lie, exploit, steal, manipulate and do anything you can to hold on to power and money for your elite class.
That he would stoop to what he did today just shows that the Republican “philosophy” is moral bankruptcy and utter depravity.
robert green
it really is amazing. here we are, on the blog of a conservative to moderate, but one with a genuinely conservative readership. at least 3 of those conservative readers are here in the comments. Not one has managed to say “this rhetoric is wrong, and hurts the real argument, which is…” or “while i agree with aspects of rove’s point, his artless presentation did nothing to help matters” and so on. not one. it just leaves me hopeless. it seems like the 3 guys on this comments page who are clearly to the right are not ultimately unreasonable, so i will try to put this in a way they can understand: if you continue to support rove’s statement that my fundamental belief system is to give “therapy” to terrorists who killed my neighbors and loved ones, then you are my enemy. my real enemy. if you think such statements reflect acceptable discourse in this country, you hate democracy. Not Democrats, mind, but democracy. you are thinking with the fascist mindset. as such, some of the vitriol you have seen directed towards you cannot be surprising. such talk has consequences. i’m not david neiwert, but i really do think we could be heading for genuine civil…upheaval in this country, if this type of rhetoric continues.
and if that happens, the terrorists truly have won, and karl rove has done their bidding just as surely as night follows day.
blueenclave
M. Simon: smarter than Karl Rove. His line was that Democrats have “forgotten their anger”. (It is hard to keep anger over 9/11 in the front of your mind when you are so angry with Bush)
ARROW
“The Republican philosopy doesn’t seem to be going over so well with the American public, if the recent polls (every.damn.one) are any indication.”
The only polls that count are the ones held on election days. But if the current opinion polls make you feel good, I’m happy for you!
“The Repbulican philosophy is to lie, exploit, steal, manipulate and do anything you can to hold on to power and money for your elite class.”
I heard that a Republican in good standing must pledge those very things… “I promise to lie, exploit, steal, manipulate and do anything …”
ARROW
“i’m not david neiwert, but i really do think we could be heading for genuine civil…upheaval in this country, if this type of rhetoric continues.”
So are you ready to take up arms against your fellow Americans because of the words they speak? You have heard of the 1st Amendment, haven’t you? You might want to stop closely following political events if they cause you angst, and get a life.
Mike S
Mike Q
Because I painted with too broad a brush. I took comments from people like spARROW and Rick and applied them to Stormy. I took comments from people that were calling us traitors and wanted to put us in internment camps and applied them to him as well.
I tried to go back and look at some of his comments with a fresher, less influenced by the other idiots comments, view. I wouldn’t say I agree with them at all but they were not the crap that has me so pissed off.
I guess I’m just sick of the rhetoric and attacks. I’m sick of being forced into fights with people that I agree with 90% of the time. I’m sick of fighting with people that, if we were to run into each other in a bar, we would probably get along with famously.
There are people who have a goal of making us all absolutely hate each other. They thrive on it. They need it to get what they want and they are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a sort of civil war. I’m tired of falling into their traps.
I have too many Republican friends to believe that they all hate me. I have too many Republican friends to believe that the only way to get things done is to demonise their party. We disagree on the best roads for this country to take, and that is all.
I was wrong to attack Stormy70 the way I did and I did exactly what I should have done. If we could get the idiots in charge to act the same way we might get some things done.
Jeanne Duffy
Hey ARROW, thanks for the usual bullshit condescension.
You know why the polls matter? Because the WH knows they have to DISTRACT from them.
You like being part of a party that feeds off the corpses of the innocent dead of its own country? Your party has whored our dead for almost four years now. Get another dead horse. We here in NYC – proudly liberal, and the toughest damn people on the planet – we’ve had just about enough of you acting like vampires over our friends and families.
Sojourner
I’m surprised the Repubs aren’t more concerned about how their boy Shrub is playing right along with Bin Laden’s wishes. Bin Laden claimed that he would destroy the U.S by bankrupting it. Shrub is certainly accommodating Bin Laden on this one. Then we have people like Rove come along to keep the Repubs and Dems fighting so they don’t pay attention to the extent to which Shrub is (unintentionally) selling out the country to Bin Laden.
Doesn’t this bother anyone?
jami
if you’re a republican who is not well-represented by karl rove’s dirty politics:
http://www.petitiononline.com/fireturd/petition.html
Jeanne Duffy
It’s true, the Repubs have handed Bin laden a total victory. They’ve let his attack transform our country, because they think there is political gain in it. Republican cowardice and greed is the force most responsible for handing bin Laden his victory. Would Bush still be pres. without bin laden? No. Would Rove be strutting around like a fatassed genius without bin Laden? No. Would we have handed them the keys to the treasury, let them bankrupt us? No.
Because of the Repubs, bin laden got a thousand times the victory he ever dreamed of.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Anyone who says Karl Rove’s comments were correct is either a liar or they are delusional. Do I have to remind you that just about EVERYONE, regardless of political ideology supported the decision to go in to Afghanistan? The decision was unamimous across the political specturm. It was President Bush and the Neo-Conservative ideologues who took us into a divise war in Iraq, on false pretenses–no less–which created this divide that we suffer from today. I really hope people think twice about the unity after 9/11 before making such ridiculous comments as Karl Rove’s.
ARROW
The moonbats have arrived… I’m outa here.
Jeanne Duffy
Of course. Coward.
Much easier to call your opponents Moonbats than to defend your depraved comments.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Arrow, everyone to the left of you is a moonbat when you are a wingnut. You are the epitome of a wingnut if you are defending Karl Rove’s remarks.
I’d be happy to see you “outta here” forever.
ricecake
No kidding. Have you noticed the only response you get from these people lately is along the “you’re a moonbat,” or just sarcastically repeating what you’ve accused them of (“why, yes, all Republicans are protofascists.”) Must be that famous Republican sense of humor they always talk about…
Michael
I used to think some Republicans were decent, if deluded, people. I was wrong. They are evil, cowardly, anti-American scum. Every damn one of them. They are all going to hell.
Rick
Ah, the “libertarian” voice is heard in the land.
Nice new consonant you have there, BTW.
Cordially…
Rick
…Likudnik double agents
J-Jazz,
Sheesh. Sometimes you folks just can’t help showing your coloration, can you?
Some “reality-based.”
Cordially…
The Disenfranchised Voter
“I used to think some Republicans were decent, if deluded, people. I was wrong. They are evil, cowardly, anti-American scum. Every damn one of them. They are all going to hell.”
I wouldn’t be so fast to judge Michael. I think John’s post proves that there are rational and decent Republicans still around, thankfully.
FormerFundie
… just when it appeared that Howard Dean would be considered the most uncontrolled speaker around, Rove far exceeds him.
Imagine that! Thanks Carl, we needed that. Now go kill some more innocents, as Jesus wuld?
mikeydem
The people that support Bush are basically a cult. Most describe themselves as Rebubs but some are indies and some are Dems. What has this admistration done – that one can say benefits the American people? Not corperations – the rich but the American people?
curious
If, in fact, Durbin’s speech did appear on Al Jazeera, it would almost certainly be due to the attention brought to it by the Republican outrage machine and those within it interested in turning this into a political issue. This is in contrast to 99% of the things said in Congress, that nobody remembers a day later. So if the problem is the practical issue of putting soldiers in peril, the Republicans have no one but themselves to blame.
The defense of Karl Rove’s comments by the White House and the distinct lack of criticism by anyone even remotely considered conservative (other than John Cole) on this comments thread demonstrates just how rotten to the core the Republican Party has become. There is no line that can be crossed, or any behavior too shameful to be engaged in as a member of the GOP.
moltar
I agree that we should get back to rational discourse, talk sensibly with the Reds, etc. However, when we do that, we are seen as “soft” and tend to get our asses buzz-sawed. Do you want to live in Potterville or Whatever Falls it was in It’s a Wonderful Life? Then you’re going to have to off Mr.Potter. That sumbitch is dug in real, REAL good.
ARROW
“Much easier to call your opponents Moonbats than to defend your depraved comments.”
Gee whiz, I leave for a few moments and you all start ganging up on me. I’m not feeling the love…
If you want to talk about depraved comments, you might want to reread what you’ve posted. For example:
“You like being part of a party that feeds off the corpses of the innocent dead of its own country? Your party has whored our dead for almost four years now.”
“Republican cowardice and greed is the force most responsible for handing bin Laden his victory.”
How is someone supposed to rationally repond this kind of opinionated, nonsense. Hence, the moonbat reference.
Stormy 70
People, I’m a chick. I know the scotch drinking probably threw you off.
” They are evil, cowardly, anti-American scum. Every damn one of them. They are all going to hell.”
Ahhhh, name-calling, mark of the true intellectual mind. I’ll put that on my business card, but I’ll pare it down to “Rebel Scum”. I am a Star Wars Republican, after all.
Rove is just being Rove, like Dean is being Dean. Red meat for the base. Politics, the hard way.
Mike S
Is it weak to apoligize twice in one thread?
srm
I am astonished at the high levels and intensity of weaponized ignorance displayed in this thread by those who are attempting to defend Rove’s commentary. I commiserate with John Cole, and with any “rational” blogger from any point on the political spectrum who has to endure reading uninformed, vitriolic drivel such as what I read here.
moltar
There’s a Johnny Walker Blue?
Stormy 70
Mike S. – not your fault, the name’s not clear.
I’m sure alot of us would get along famously, and have fun together. Half my family are top tier lefties, but I don’t hate them or other Democrats. And neither does Rick or Arrow. But we do bring the snark.
Jobaby
Scotty had it right, just underlining the philisphical differences…After 9/11 Liberals tried to understand what the hell went wrong.
Rove just wanted to bomb someone.
Liberals tried to find out where mistakes were made.
ARROW
“weaponized ignorance”
I have no idea what it means, but I like it. Is it a synonym for “moonbat.”
“I commiserate with John Cole, and with any “rational” blogger from any point on the political spectrum who has to endure reading uninformed, vitriolic drivel such as what I read here.”
Nice drive-by-comment. Care to inform us of this “vitriolic drivel”?
srm
Arrow, if you ever manage to achieve an understanding of what the term “weaponized ignorance” might signify, you will certainly be able to then discern not only the vitriolic, but also the disdainful, derogatory, contemptuous, hollow, deceptive and ridiculous rhetoric that is so pervasive in public and political discourse.
Absent a dynamic understanding of the numerous deleterious effects and ramifications of ignorance itself, however, you might not ever get it.
Stormy 70
Are you posting from a Starbuck’s? I always break out the vocabulary when I’m there.
ARROW
srm
Thanks for sharing your informed, vitriolic drivel. And the amazing thing is, you did it without really saying anything. Is that one of the ramifications of ignorance?
“dynamic understanding”
Another great phrase. Is dynamic understanding like grasping the meaning of something that is constantly changing in meaning. That is truly heavy man, and deep as well…
ARROW
Stormy70
I have a feeling that we are dealing with an intellectual elite. He/she, probably doesn’t even need a dictionary. Having one is pretty useless in any event, since the meaning of everything is “dynamic.” You know, night is day, black is white, and the debits on the right.
White-n-Wealthy
What would Jesus have done?
Karl Rove has outed himself as anti-christian. How can the Republicans continue to support this cabinet that so blantantly violates the teachings of christ?
Stormy 70
Arrow – it is the perfect swarm today. It is, dare I say, a dynamic thread.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Stormy70 = Female version of Arrow? Heh.
Jimmy Jazz
Rick:
Sheesh. Sometimes you folks just can’t help showing your coloration, can you?
This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq
Stormy 70
Spurs won!!
ARROW
“Stormy70 = Female version of Arrow? Heh.”
Thanks for the compliment. But you might want to get your echolocation equipment checked.
A dynamic thread indeed!
Mauricio Babilonia
I’m a liberal and damn proud of it. I was as pissed and horrified as anyone on September 11 that any group would have the audacity to attack us on our home turf. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan because I felt that those responsible should be brought to justice, even if in a body bag.
Well, I’m still waiting for that to happen.
Yes, Saddam is a bad guy. Yes, he deserved to be brought to justice. No, I won’t be shedding a tear for him anytime soon if he’s found guilty of his crimes and strung up. What bothers me is that in the course of removing him from power, we’re losing our nation’s soul.
Look at WW2 for a minute. Hitler, Tojo and Il Duce arguably did a lot more damage to the world than Saddam or Bin Laden have so far. Did we win by detaining people in Cuba for as long as we wanted without a trial? No. We brought the German POWs to Sheboygan and then returned them at the end of hostilities. Did we mistreat our POWs? No, in spite of the way they treated our prisoners. Did we invade soveriegn nations under false pretenses? Change rationale for war in midstream? Blame our failures on bad intelligence or our own citizens? No, no, and no. America used to be great because we served as an example to other countries. We took the high road. We were the good guys.
Now look at us. Karl Rove writes off half the country as a bunch of pussies, and that’s what passes as political wisdom? C’mon, I know we want to believe that the leaders we choose are trying to do the right thing, but we deserve better than this.
Rick
jazz,
Oh, that’s supposed to settle the Likudnik hash? Pshaw; the intel was better on Saddam’s WMD than that supposed evidence.
Alger Hiss it ain’t.
Cordially…
SnarkyShark
Thank god for you John Cole. I have been looking for a reasonable conservative blog, and now I found one.
Consider me a reguler reader.
I am a Dean reform Democrat.But I put America before any political party.
Thats why I left the Republican party after 38 years.
Thanks Arrow and Doug for helping our recruiting efforts. Every post you make confirms to more and more moderates that the Republican party has become a cult.
ARROW
“Thanks Arrow and Doug for helping our recruiting efforts. Every post you make confirms to more and more moderates that the Republican party has become a cult.”
Wow..thank you very much! I never knew I had so much power. This is great. I can’t speak for Doug, but I have no official connection to the Republican Party (other than being registered as a Republican).
So tell me about all these new recruits I’m helping you get. Are they your typical new Democrat registered voter, or are these new recriuits still alive and breathing?
Jimmy Jazz
Rick: sigh.
The sympathies of the neocons are well known. The money goes to both sides of the aisle, I’m not absolving Democrats at all.
But the fact, the fact that many current prominent Defense officials have served as advisors to Likud governments is just a coincidence?
The purge of “Arabists” from State is just a coincidence?
The fact that Franklin has close ties to Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz is just a coincidence?
The rise of Dominionist Christianity, with its eliminationist fantasies about Palestinians is just a coincidence?
The dumping of non-believer Powell is just a coincidence?
The creation of the “stovepipe” to funnel bogus Iraqi intelligence through Feith’s office was just a coincidence?
allihead
Here here. I am sick and tired of Bush supporters calling themselves Republicans. Ronald reagan (and I was no fan at the time) would roll over in his grave if he read the Patriot Act or heard about Gitmo or Karl Rove’s statements. I thought the GOP stood for smaller government, fiscal responsiblitiy, etc not paternalism and religiosity and dogmatism.
Uncle Kvetch
Sigh. When will I learn?
I find myself reading John Cole or Tacitus or one of the other decent, sensible conservatives addressing the torture issue and I take heart. All is not lost, I tell myself. This is not a left-right issue, and people are reaching across ideological divides to defend the ideals on which this country was founded.
Then I read the comments on the same blogs, and I want to throw up.
Trevor
John, it seems to me that you’re main quibble with Rove is his timeline is off. You are correct, liberals (for the most part,) did support the war in Afghanistan. It was later that many stopped supporting the president’s efforts in the WOT. So, if Rove had made the same statement, but qualified with the time it took for liberal support to flag, would that have been right? If so, it just seems to me that he needs to correct himself, not apologize.
Republican Motives?
Sojourner
Trevor:
It was the president who sidetracked the war on terror by going into Iraq rather than finishing the job with the 9/11 terrorists. Rove’s just executing Republican SOP by trying to divert attention from a failed policy. However, the American people are beginning to realize they’ve been suckered on Iraq so there’s a certain element of desperation on Rove’s part. How many times can you blame somebody (i.e., the Dems) for being right and get away with it?
Grasshopper
Whew!The Daily Kos directed me over here to John Cole’s place and the last 45 minutes has been fascinating.Spent all that time on John’s article and the various commentary.
I’m all tuckered out, but I’ll be back to see if you respondents can keep up the (relatively) high grade work.
I’ve only been keeping score informally, so I don’t have a result to share with you. Maybe this will do: Some of you listen and some of you don’t. (I’m sure we all need to work on that.)
ARROW
Sojourner:
This is from Wikipedia:
“The Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq (H.J.Res. 114) was a resolution passed in October 2002 by the United States Congress authorizing what was soon to become the 2003 invasion of Iraq under the War Powers Resolution. The authorization was sought by U.S. President George W. Bush, and it passed the House by a vote of 296-133 and the Senate by a vote of 77-23, receiving significant support from both major political parties. It was signed into law by President Bush on October 16, 2002.”
“The act cited several factors to justify a war:
Stephen M. St. Onge
John, your brain is softening. At this rate, you’ll turn into a leftist.
Rove doesn’t use the word Democrats in that speech excerpt. He just says “liberals.”
And in part you didn’t reprint, he gave examples of “liberals” who did call for a non-violent response to the attacks.
If the Democrats had any sense, they’d have shrugged, and said “I have no idea what he’s talking about. Certainly not me, I voted for the use of force resolution. Why don’t you ask him about it?” When they did, and Rove mentioned Not In Our Name, and MoveOn, and other such cattle, smart Dems would then say that they’re nuts, and don’t have anything to do with the Democratic Party, that they aren’t liberals but commies, and that the Democrats repudiate them . . .
Oh, wait, those groups are a big section of the Democratic Party base, and nobody dares repudiate them. Instead, the Democratic Party bends to their wishes.
Let me rephrase. If the Dems had any brains, they’d ignore this to death. Instead, they do Rove’s work by making a fuss.
As do you, John. Thank you for your work for the GOP.
THE SAUDS MUST BE DESTROYED!
Anonymous
>Here is the >dreadful statement >made by Rove about >liberals (quoted by >John Cole at the >top):
>”Liberals saw the >savagery of the >9/11 attacks and >wanted to prepare >indictments and >offer therapy and >understanding for >our attackers”
>Are you truly >saying that the >above quote is >”insane,, untrue, >and spurious”?
Well, I am!
It seems to me that >President Clinton >dealt with the first >WTC bombing by >pursuing >indictments.
There’s nothing wrong with indictments; what do you think we did to the war criminals of WWII at Nuremburg? It’s the “therapy and understanding” part that’s insane, untrue, and spurious. (Incidentally, advocating that we understand our enemies — a basic principle of war — is not the same as adovocating “understanding” for them.)
> I bet if I looked >I could find >support for this >approach being >advocated by >liberals.
Well, maybe some liberal, somewhere, but certainly not Michael Moore or Howard Dean, who Rove slandered by name. Or MoveOn, which he also slandered. Or indeed the vast majority of liberals.
Liberals, with the exception of the minority who are pacifists, supported the invasion of Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden. This is pretty much a matter of record.
Dean, for example, who is certainly not a pacifist, opposed the invasion of Iraq because (a) Saddam Hussein detested Islamic terrorists (who often tried to overthrow him) and was clearly not associated with al-Qaeda, (b) Saddam posed no threat to the US himself, (c) overthrowing Hussein would make Iraq into a magnet for Islamic terrorism, and (d) Iraq would distract our attention and military from the vital war in Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden.
He, like me and many other liberals, was right on all four counts. Now Rove is slandering him.
—
Anonymous because of the terrorist threats made against liberals by an earlier commentator in this thread
Anonymous
>Here is the >dreadful statement >made by Rove about >liberals (quoted by >John Cole at the >top):
>”Liberals saw the >savagery of the >9/11 attacks and >wanted to prepare >indictments and >offer therapy and >understanding for >our attackers”
>Are you truly >saying that the >above quote is >”insane,, untrue, >and spurious”?
Well, I am!
It seems to me that >President Clinton >dealt with the first >WTC bombing by >pursuing >indictments.
There’s nothing wrong with indictments; what do you think we did to the war criminals of WWII at Nuremburg? It’s the “therapy and understanding” part that’s insane, untrue, and spurious. (Incidentally, advocating that we understand our enemies — a basic principle of war — is not the same as adovocating “understanding” for them.)
> I bet if I looked >I could find >support for this >approach being >advocated by >liberals.
Well, maybe some liberal, somewhere, but certainly not Michael Moore or Howard Dean, who Rove slandered by name. Or MoveOn, which he also slandered. Or indeed the vast majority of liberals.
Liberals, with the exception of the minority who are pacifists, supported the invasion of Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden. This is pretty much a matter of record.
Dean, for example, who is certainly not a pacifist, opposed the invasion of Iraq because (a) Saddam Hussein detested Islamic terrorists (who often tried to overthrow him) and was clearly not associated with al-Qaeda, (b) Saddam posed no threat to the US himself, (c) overthrowing Hussein would make Iraq into a magnet for Islamic terrorism, and (d) Iraq would distract our attention and military from the vital war in Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden.
He, like me and many other liberals, was right on all four counts. Now Rove is slandering him.
—
Anonymous because of the terrorist threats made against liberals by an earlier commentator in this thread
Sojourner
First of all, it authorized Bush to use military force if he thought it necessary. It did not specifically authorize a war in Iraq. There is a difference. The Dems made a mistake in trusting Bush’s judgment.
Second, we’re only now learning the extent to which the evidence presented to the Congress was cherry picked by the administration. As the Downing Street memos demonstrated, this administration was going to go to war no matter what. Whether they actually lied or simply chose to ignore conflicting evidence is in the eye of the beholder. But they sure as hell did not provide an objective review of the evidence.
Maybe that works for you but it sure as hell doesn’t work for me.
joe
This Blog sucks
The Disenfranchised Voter
“Rove doesn’t use the word Democrats in that speech excerpt. He just says “liberals.”
And in part you didn’t reprint, he gave examples of “liberals” who did call for a non-violent response to the attacks.”
Rove cited Dean as an example, and the last time I check Dean was a Democrat. Furthermore, Rove’s claim is bullshit because Dean did support the war in Afghanistan.
ARROW
Sojourner
What does the following mean to you? Note the title in SEC 1. and also that there is no specific mention of WMD, but rather a mandate that the President gets Iraq to comply with U.N. Resolutions.
“SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the “Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq”.
“SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS
The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to–
(a) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions applicable to Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(b) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions. ”
“SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.”
ch2
First the niceties,
John Cole,
props for being a thinking man. Props for having comments. Props for actually wading in them, even if the water is not clorinated.
Rove’s comments were beyond the pale and I will neither forgive nor forget.
Now the nasties,
I am one angry NJ liberal. To all the slimeballs who believe liberals are traitors:
Shut up and enlist. . You are spitting on every liberal man and woman in NJ and NY in uniform here and abroad. How DARE you or any of the lying sack of shits defend Rove say this ?
ARROW
ch2
I have no idea if your are a “traitor.” Rove certainly did’t call you one. Why the overreaction? Could it be you want to score political points…Naaah LOL
ARROW
Why don’t you “liberals” cut the faux outrage and defend what you stand for? I get the feeling that much of MoveOn.org’s base is anti-war, human rights activists. And I mean just any ole human will do when it comes to defending these “rights.”
Guys like Durbin are just preaching to their choir, at the expense of ANYONE (including the U.S. military) that gets in their way. While I don’t think this makes him a “traitor,” it certainly doesn’t make me think of him as a staunch defender of America’s role in the war on terror (since he puts his political base ahead of America’s image in the world). I understand that many of you think he’s enhanced America’s image in the world by advocating for the rights of these poor terrorist, and I
The Disenfranchised Voter
“Howard Dean has done on more than one occasion.”
When has Howard Dean ever implied that Republicans are traitors? Give me a freakin’ break…
rusty
Whether its flag burning, Communism, the troops at gitmo or free exercise of religion liberals have always been against America. No they have been called out, they cant stand the truth. Liberals hate America and everything that made it great.