The run-down:
Students protest military recruiters, include their personal information in a press release.
Right wing pundit links the press release.
Some knuckle-draggers make threatening comments to the protestors, sending the left-wing of the blogosphere into a tizzy. The protestors achieve exalted victim status!
The left-wing knuckle draggers man their keyboards, and begin the threats against the pundit. Pundit achieves exalted victim status!
Just another week in the circle of stupid that online punditry has become. If you will excuse me, I am going to go read more so I, too, can get outraged about something.
fwiffo
People like Malkin and O’Reilly know full well that their audience includes said knuckle-draggers and ought to behave a little more responsibly with that kind of power. Pointing out the misbehavior seems reasonable to me. Responding in kind obviously is not, but none of the comments she posted (even if disgusting and crude) seem to even rise to the level of “threat” beyond the “how would you like it, huh” sort.
In fact, at least one of the comments she posted seems to make a perfectly reasonable point (if you get past the little insult at the end and the spelling).
Jeff Miller
Right on target. This “Circle of Outrage” syndrome is ridiculous.
danelectro
john, could we get a thread about iran soon?
danelectro
and by soon, i mean, sometime before the u.s. launches a pre-emptive nuclear strike.
Ryan S
You forgot the part when she reposts the information.
DougJ
You’re right again, John. The student protesters are every bit as wrong here as the people who are posting their information and sending them death threats. And atrios is just as wrong to criticize Malkin as Malkin was to post the numbers in the first place.
Why must both sides always be wrong? It’s sad, isn’t it?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
This is why I can’t take too seriously the blogworld’s demands to be treated seriously. The MSM (and I include outlets of all political persuasions in there) can be accused of lots of flaws, but not juvenile crap like this.
Also, JC, you’re dead on about the “victory” of victimhood.
Mr Furious
Malkin is a piece of shit. She took advantage of an uneven situation. These are students, she is an experienced “journalist.” Contact info in the press release is not for general public distribution and consumption, it’s for members of the press to contact them for information.
She took that information and broadcast it to her knuckle-dragging readers knowing full well what that meant. they asked her to please take it down, she scolded them and posted it again even though they were getting threats.
Steve
If only someone would take the position that both sides are right, we could reach a consensus that the truth is in the middle…
Mac Buckets
Malkin only linked to the students own press release. If the protesters are too stupid to leave out their personal info, then they… belong at UC-Santa Cruz, I guess.
But yes, way too much ado about nothing here. Just another fake outrage-athon. Everyone who participates loses.
Joel
Has anyone here actually read the discussion boards at Eschaton lately? To blame Malkin alone for failing to acknowledge the behavior of her knuckle-draggers is unfair.
It seems to me that internet discussion boards are getting worse over time. Someone recently said that if we took all the bile, mendacity, thuggery, and blinkered partisan hackery out of the internet, the place would be empty except for two people in some remote corner talking about Harry Potter.
Mr Furious
Well it’s starting to sound like both sides are wrong. I haven’t had time to read much on this, but it seems like these student protestors released personal contact info of the recruiters they were protesting, and if that’s the case, they no longer get much sympathy from me…
I’d follow up and figure it all out, but frankly I don’t care enough…
Krista
The students were foolish to have included that info on the media release, and were also foolish to have made their protest so vehement that it made the recruiters look like figures of sympathy. That being said, folly and naivete are forgivable.
Deliberate malice is not.
I find it hard to believe that Michelle did not know exactly what she was doing when she published that contact info, particularly where she then re-published it after having been asked to take it down. The comments sent to her that she published were as ugly as hell. I cannot help but wonder, however, how many comments she did NOT publish, that were non-profanity filled, sincere, rational chastisements of how irresponsible she was being. I bet there were a lot more of those.
Think she’d ever publish them? I’m guessing not.
Mac Buckets
And what would become of teh pr0n?
fwiffo
It’s not like this is a blogosphere-only phenomenon. There was this Tucker Carlson/Fox News incident, for example.
Mac Buckets
Did you also wonder this about the letters to the protesters? Or is only one side assumed without evidence to be largely reasonable?
Steve
Isn’t that simply a false statement?
nyrev
The Harry Potter kids are on the job.
Mac Buckets
I don’t think it’s a false statement, but it was mispunctuated, and I apologize for that.
Malkin didn’t look up the contact info herself — it was in the students‘ (there, much better) own press release, and could be viewed on many sites besides her own, from what I understand. She’s just a lightning rod because she’s visible, and it gives the one-finger-typists a chance to use their top “Chink” smackdowns.
Davebo
John,
You read Ezra’s post on the issue and determined he was sent into a “tizzy”?
Seemed like a rational post to me. Compared to your Sheehan rants it was almost statesman like.
Malkin is indeed scum. That the folks she directs her hatred at may have gone over the line, a judgement call, doesn’t change the fact that the woman is a bottom feeder.
And you are obviously incapable of making a judgement on this issue if you think Ezra “went into a tizzy”.
rachel
And what would become of teh pr0n?
(shakes head) You are an innocent, aren’t you? And so was the person who thought removing the “bile, mendacity, thuggery, and blinkered partisan hackery” from the internet would leave us with people discussing Harry Potter.
Aaah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah!
You poor, silly fools.
Krista
Good point, Mac. I’m sure there were many letters that were written to the protesters that were non-violent. Having looked at the two samples, I do find that the letters calling Michelle a c**t are a bit less chilling than this:
“You will pay for your seditious activities. It is only a matter of
time…We are retired military snipers & we are watching you…”
But that’s just my opinion. There are hotheads on both sides of the argument here. My beef is not with the hotheads and the letter-writers. Were the students foolish to include that info? Yes. Should Michelle have known better than to have published that contact info? Oh yes. Should she have removed the contact information, when she found out that the students were receiving death threats? Yes. Should she have responded to the students’ pleas by re-publishing their contact information. No. Absolutely not. That is where I have the problem with her. Re-publishing it, after having been asked to take it down because those students were getting death threats, was pure and utter malice.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Honest question: Has it ever been legally determined how much responsibility a blogger would bear if one of their readers ever was incited enough to do harm?
Pb
Krista,
…are entirely non-specific. How much of that is just her regular hate/fan mail?
Mac Buckets
If not “tizzy,” how about “drama-queeny?”
Klein: “A skilled and experienced rhetorical warrior, she saw the pale, white flesh of their throats and lunged. The vicious always seek out the weak…If any of these students are hurt by a crazed Malkinite, the blood will drip from her hands, the guilt will burden her shoulders. But forgive her just the same, for there is nought else she can do.”
Pb
Gold Star for Robot Boy,
I don’t know, but I think in general people are responsible for their own actions–even stupid irresponsible people, whether or not they’re listening to their stupid irresponsible friends.
Krista
pb – And that’s why I would never, ever run a blog. Too many seriously frightening people out there.
Steve
Ok, but you are really saying the only thing she did was link to the students’ own press release?
After the students changed their press release to take out the personal information, she included a link to the cached version. There’s no reason to do that unless you want to specifically help people find the personal information.
Later, she posted that the cached version had been “wiped,” and so she presented a screenshot of the contact information, which you can still see on her site.
Still later, she posted links to four other sites which still had the original press release with the contact information.
I think this qualifies as a little more than “linking to the students’ own press release.”
You could argue about her culpability for posting the original link. But once you find out that people are receiving death threats as a result of your link, it’s pretty fucked up to say “I don’t condone death threats, but by the way, here are 10 other ways you can find that contact information.”
DougJ
Look, you jack asses, Malkin does “not condone death threats.” So you can’t blame her.
Mac Buckets
Come on, anyone who has been on the intertrons for two seconds knows that this was written by a spotty-faced fifteen-year-old.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
So, it’s not a threat then?
Not sure if that would stand up in court…
Gold Star for Robot Boy
In general, sure. But in situations like this, IF something were to happen could the original blogger (O.B.?) use the defense of, “Hey, not my fault they read what I wrote?”
Davebo
John,
I’m staring now at your contact info page on the UWV website. It is, as you know, public information readily available to anyone interested.
Now imagine if I were to say, post a comment on the Freeper site during the Schiavo affair including one of your posts on the matter, a link to your post, and a link to your UWV contact page.
That would be a pretty crappy thing for me to do. And I would never think of turning those wackos loose on you.
I’m guessing that had I do so, you might have gone into a “tizzy” though probably not near as reasoned and eloquent as Ezra did.
DougJ
Sounds like pre-911 thinking to me. Nowadays, the press is responsible for anything that goes wrong in the country.
capelza
Okay, that IS evil and spiteful and just plain, well, c**ty.
Pb
DougJ,
That’s true, Malkin is much more humane. I don’t think she’d really want to kill anyone–she’d rather just lock massive amounts of people up without cause or due process and throw away the key (you know, like we’ve already done in Gitmo, but much bigger). And maybe some of those people would die as a result, one way or another, but it’s not like she *wanted* them to die–just to rot in a hellhole, denied their inalienable rights by force, for an indeterminate period of time, possibly up to and including the rest of their lives.
Steve
Women sure can be catty. I don’t know why you’re being so bashful about it, though!
I do find it ironic that left-wing bloggers have singlehandedly sapped the morale of our troops, emboldened the terrorists, and cost us the war in Iraq, according to the same right-wing bloggers who bear no responsibility whatsoever for any consequences from their postings.
Punchy
To deliberately RE-publish the names and numbers AFTER she was asked by–I’m guessing–scared and freaked-out students to remove those numbers makes her an evil “person” to a degree I’ve never seen before. Imagine asking someone to stop endangering yourself and your friends, only to have that person endanger them further. On purpose. With glee. And impunity.
One sick bitch, she is.
gringoman
The Victimfest is invited to take it to Tehran. New cartoon, “Nanny Man & Mullah Man.”
capelza
Catty, yeah, yeah,,,that’s what I said. LOL
Steve, very good point. The “loser” left is responsible for everything. Though how we can be losers and still be responsible for everything still confuses me. Either we have the “power” or we don’t. Malkin and her ilk are never responsible for consequences, only the left.
The Other Steve
More proof that Michelle Malkin is an evil doer.
Pb
Well, I’d like to know what the law is on this. There are laws against stalking and “cyber-stalking”, and death threats aren’t protected speech, no matter what David Horowitz and the David Horowitzes of the right might think. But past that, I don’t know what the law is here–maybe someone should ask Homeland Security, or see if Malkin’s ISP has a policy one way or the other.
Pb
Punchy,
And that might also constitute harassment. Any lawyers in the house?
fwiffo
Pfft, shows what you know. Clearly it’s a 14-year-old. A 15-year-old would have named a specific branch of the military and tried to include a semicolon to sound adultish. Also, you can tell it’s not a 13-year-old because they made sure to check the spelling of “seditious” and because they used “the royal ‘we’.”
Pooh
Not a chance – overt inducement to violent lawlessness plus ‘imminent’ possibility of said lawlessness. There are about a billion cases on the klansmen and/or commies saying stuff like “somebody should do something”.
Speculating, but REPOSTING the information may be civilly tortious as harrassment. At the very least, it’s uncouth, and frankly John, your attempt at moral equivalence on this one is wearisome. Malkin is clearly in the wrong here, but if you are contractually obligated to stick up for a fellow pajaman, so be it.
Krista
Glad you guys find it amusing, but if I were 19-20 years old and got a message like that in my personal e-mail, I’d be freaking the hell out. I wouldn’t necessarily believe every word about the alleged writer, but I’d definitely worry about the sentiment being genuine.
Mac Buckets
I’m sorry, since when did posting someone’s press release with their email address or phone number in the text become tantamount to throwing them naked to the Mongol hordes? Overreact much?
These students aren’t protesting in secret. Anyone who would want to harm them could just come to their little groupthink rally. Are these protesters such cowards that they’ll pose for smiley pictures with their “Fuck the Military” signs and they’ll scream down our soldiers, but they don’t want anyone to know who they are so they won’t get mail?
To their credit, it appears that the people who named themselves in the press release haven’t complained to Malkin — why should anyone else be whining?
KC
If these people released their personal information in a press release, well, didn’t they release it? By linking to it, I don’t think Malkin did anything wrong. On the other hand, if they asked Malkin to take it down because they were being harrassed, I think she should. It just seems like the decent thing to do.
All in all, I think John’s got the “victimhood” thing right.
Tim F.
Heh, that was me, before joining the front-page staff I believe.
I disagree that internet discourse has gotten worse over time, or politics for that matter. Usenet boards would singe your eyebrows off your face and the old-fashioned way to settle a political disagreement was to form rival gangs and hack each other to pieces. The Homestead strike sure wasn’t settled by arbitration.
We had a period of nice-nice going for awhile where people had a basic faith in government and the Democratic process to settle differences. I would agree that we’re trending away from that now, but discourse-wise the floor is a long ways down yet.
DougJ
Should we even be discussing any of this? We’re at war now, lest you forget. The Islamofascists are laughing at us. They’re plotting our destruction while we bicker over nothing.
You can bet your ass Osama bin Laden isn’t on a blog right now whining all the death threats he gets. He knows that goes with the territory — you mess with the US, you get death threats. That goes for student protesters as well as international terrorists. If you can’t take the heat, get the fuck out of the kitchen.
Punchy
BINGO. We once had a faith that we had a “Democratic process”. Many of us no longer believe that process is still in effect. The vitriol you see spewed so egregiously is utter dispair of losing power from those on the Right and utter dispair of never being able to get that power back from those on the Left.
The more this country polarizes along these thoughts, the worse the discourse will be. It’s a spiral, and it’s going downwards.
DougJ
You forgot the porn.
LITBMueller
What I learned today: left wing bloggers drag their knuckles. Right wing bloggers are merely “pundits.”
Okie dokie.
Also, just wanted to point out: those who issue press releases place contact information on them for use by the press, not to invite comments from the general public. The press is free to use the information from the release, but never ever release the contact information unless asked to do so.
Since we are dealing with a bunch of students here, it should be a surprise to no one that they used their own personal contact info, unless they have their own organization which they can refer the press to.
Not blacking out the personal contact info was a malicious act by Malkin, plain and simple. She knew exactly what she was doing, and what the response would be from her…ahem…knuckle-dragging readers.
Pooh
Why don’t we ever hear the good news about internet discussions? How come the media never reports in the threads that aren’t flamewars?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Same issue, different variable: Remember when Jenna Bush got caught trying to pass off a fake ID at an Austin bar, and the Freepers posted the bar manager’s personal information? That was fun.
As the manager is a private citizen, MacB, is publishing her personal info fair game?
Mac Buckets
Spot the irony.
People who forcibly blocked a military recruiters’ stall at a campus job fair, who wouldn’t let interested students even talk to recruiters, who brought “Fuck the Military” signs and shouted down soldiers, who stole the recruiters’ pamphlets and DVDs, who threw a rock at the soldiers’ car as they drove away…
…now expect everyone to do whatever it takes so they won’t be harrassed.
Where are those big bad protesters now?
The Other Steve
But Malkin isn’t a decent person.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
I, for one, forgot, as I had been enlisted into the deathmatches against gay marriage and illegal immigration.
Bagh-where?
Steve
I’ll go over it again, since we seem to have come full circle back to wondering if Malkin did anything worse than simply link to a press release. This is why I nudged Mac to correct his false statement in the first place.
It seems like some people don’t even understand the concept of a press release. The reason you include contact information is so the press can contact you for additional information, not because you intend for the press to republish your information to the whole world. Sure, I wouldn’t include my home phone number on a press release, but these people are college students. I doubt they have any other contact information to provide.
Let’s look back at Malkin’s original post:
This is not just a “link to a press release.” This is a deliberate publishing of contact information, with a link to a press release included in order to cover herself.
DougJ
And both sides are to blame. Whether it’s White House officials outting secret agents to get back at its critics or Democratic presidential candidates who cravenly scream at political rallies, both sides are engaging in shameful tactics.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
MacB, from where are getting the stuff about throwing rocks? Because I’m not reading that in the article posted by John.
Blue Neponset
Tacitus has a better read on this:
Mac Buckets
Of course not — that bar manager didn’t organize a public protest or send out a press release. Duh.
jaime
Ann Coulter also released someone’s personal information.
Pooh
You, see by wearing that
short-skirtprotest shirt, they were asking for it, right?1. Linking to the press release, even reposting it? Probably fine, fair game, etc.
2. Once they say “hey, I’m getting death threats and they say they’re coming from your site. Please take it down” is the best answer really “sorry kid, that’s what you get. That’ll learn you to speak out?”
Mac Buckets
One of the Santa Cruz sites from John’s Malkin link.
John Cole
A.) It is WVU.
B.) That isn’t what Malkin did. If, for example, Michelle had looked their info up and posted it, then your comparison would be correct.
C.) Regardless, this has been done to me several times already- everytime I tangle with the fringe left someone does that- go check the comments at firedoglake. They tried to post my info here in the comments (including a letter writing campaign to my employers), but I just deleted them. It happened during he Ann Althouse/Dennis the Menace PJ Media crap.
D.) I didn’t make any noise about it because I hate this victim crap and because it isn’t that big of a deal to me. Regardless, my job is secure, so if ssome ignorant twat does get out my personal info, I am fine.
Steve
Here’s a principled conservative who has apparently taken Malkin off the blogroll over this.
Andrew
What does Baghdad have to do with the War on Christmas?
jaime
Yeah, pussy ass liberals. They should be able to handle calls like ‘I’m gonna effin stab you and murder your family if you don’t shut up.’ What a bunch of babies. Waaa.
Mac Buckets
Why do you think this happened? Malkin says the three students who published their info haven’t complained to her.
Mac Buckets
Exactly. I get worse that that every week, and I don’t even brag about how tough I was when I took on The Man at a Uni protest!
Nikki
She’s splitting hairs. Members of the organization SAW asked her to take it down and she refused.
Historical Wit
Why can we all just get along?
Krista
Glad to see it, Don. You’re definitely racked up some good karma with me.
(If you could just lose that stonewashed denim dress shirt in your blog profile photo, though…it makes my optical nerves bleed.)
don surber
Krista:
It’s my Cleveland Indians shirt. You will take it from my back when you pry it from Charlton Heston’s dead cold fingas
capelza
Sometimes it does feel like an adult version of Myspace…
Krista
Duly noted. Although I still think a nice charcoal dress shirt would be much more becoming. Just don’t wear that denim thing on a first date, okay? (A bit of unsolicited advice from someone who once went on a blind date with a fellow who showed up in head-to-toe San Jose Sharks regalia.)
Worrisome question: why are Charlton Heston’s dead cold fingas clutching the denim shirt on your back? Is it just his fingas, or are his hands dangling off of your sleeves or something? How does one launder a shirt that is accessorized with Charlton Heston’s dead cold fingas?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
But with worse music and far less hipness.
Pb
I assume that by ‘adult’ you’re just talking about age, not maturity. It’s like talking about the parents in My Super Sweet 16 instead of the kids–still idiotic spoiled brats, but older.
DougJ
What does Baghdad have to do with the War on Christmas?
Iraq is now the central battlefield in the War on Christmas.
jg
I know a few former military dudes in their thirties who talk like that pretty often.
The Other Steve
I don’t know, when I was a trusted user over at dailyKos, we’d routinely troll rate comments containing personal info into oblivion. So I find it hard to believe it’s something that occurs frequently amongst liberals.
This posting personal info for revenge, seems to be a particularly conservative phenomena having to do with the most vile of conservative commentators… i.e. the Rush Limbaugh conservatives. Malkin, Coulter, O’Reilly and such being part of that club.
I doubt it’s something you would have ever seen William F. Buckley, Jr. doing. by comparison. Back then conservatives felt that if they couldn’t win on ideas, then maybe they were wrong and didn’t resort to such underhanded tactics.
Punchy
I’m assuming that means we’ve won the war in Iraq, the war in Af-gone-istan, and the War on Toilet-Seat-Left-Downers.
On a side note, after seeing Maul-kin in one of those ubiquitous photos of her with a crazed maniacal look on her face, does anyone else have such huge choppers? I mean, holy grillwork. Her incisors alone could win us Tikrit.
DougJ
does anyone else have such huge choppers?
Nancy Kerrigan.
Krista
Gary Busey (et fils)
John Cole
I have just told you that it happens, that it has happened to me, and will happen to me again if I somehow piss off the angry left again. You can either believe me or call me a liar- you don’t get to say “I don’t think it happens.”
It does, and this inability to recognize that both sides have their jackasses is a real blind spot for many, and that it is not just the “Coulter’s and the Limbaugh’s” who do this sort of crap. There are probably a great number on the right who are upset at what Malkin has been called, yet fail to realize when those on the right do it.
Ask Erick Erickson. Ask Ben Domenech.
jg
It goes higher than that. Plame?
Mac Buckets
John Elway.
Tony Robbins.
Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
Josh Trevino
Ask Erick Erickson. Ask Ben Domenech.
Ask their families, too.
DougJ
I’d forgotten about John Elway — he takes the cake. I read that they were the only human body parts visible from space.
Mac Buckets
John Elway.
Tony Robbins.
Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
Cooncidentally, or not, that’s also my list of “People Who Look Like Horses.”
Steve
I think it’s the difference between being a widely-read blogger and syndicated columnist, and being a random commentor at firedoglake. I agree that both sides have a lowest common denominator but I see that as kind of a cheap distinction in this case.
Punchy
I got a barn full of equines who want to pick a fight with you over that comment. Comparing Elway to Zippy Chippy is an insult to everything Kentucky and thoroughbred.
Krista
Heh. Go here and scroll down to the fourth row of pictures.
Pb
As a trusted user on Daily Kos, I agree, that’s about the size of it–posting personal info is a no-no.
John Cole,
Fortunately, he didn’t say that at all. I will say that your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, though.
jg
The Coulters and Limbaughs’ have power. The lowly commenters at Firedoglake don’t. Someone like me printing your address is petty. Malkin doing it is a whole different story. Do you not see that?
Pb
jg,
Watch yourself, you don’t want to get a call from Fox Security… :)
Zifnab
The problem is the maliciousness. Just like when FOX News released Tucker Carlson’s personal info as a revenge smear, Malkin basically asked her audience to harass people.
Of course, the problem lies not so much with Malkin as with the knuckle draggers themselves. Let’s face it, if these people didn’t exist, neither would Malkin. FOX News, right wing radio, and the fuckwad Republican elite aren’t the problem, they’re merely the symptoms.
There are alot of stupid, cruel, hateful, petty, mean-spirited individuals out there, on both sides of the aisle – although the right side does seem to make them more visible and more welcome. But the bottom line is that you don’t see this sort of shit cropping up on more moderate blogs. Certainly, I would hope this site doesn’t ever dip to those levels, because I would hope John and Tim have the integerity not to play those dirty games. And would hope you guys on the forums would cry foul to high heaven if they did, rather than taking the info and spouting off on the targets like rabid monkeys like Malkin’s flock seems to love doing.
John Cole
Another snotty swipe at my reading comprehension, simply because I disagree. He said:
It happens with the same frequency on the left as on the right- each side seems to ignore what their side is doing. Unless you can find a psych study that shows that ‘jackass’ is unevenly distributed in the general population, weighted towards conservative, I will stick to my personal experiences and what I have observed.
If you want to argue there is a disparate effect when Limbaugh does something than when commenters at a website do, I would not disagree. But just because Limbaugh has power and the commenter doesn’t does not mean it is happening more often on the right than the left.
How is my reading comprehension now?
DougJ
Okay, John, we get it — both sides are bad, here as everywhere.
Mac Buckets
And what’s wrong with harrassing people? Certainly, the protesters don’t mind harrassing people (or theft, or throwing rocks at cars…),
Jim Allen
I’d wondered how long it would take John Cole to post his “move along, nothing to see here” apologia for Malkin. Did it come directly from Pajamas Media headquarters, do you think, or did he do it on his own initiative?
capelza
So tit for tat. Whoever published Erick’s info was very wrong, Ben I can’t feel too bad for, but it was still wrong. And Malkin and her mouthbreather’s were right to castigate anyone who would do such a thing (if they did, I can’t believe she would miss those OUTRAGES!!!!).
So, leading by example, she has shown that she and her mouthbreather’s are above that, the moral high ground, etc.
Uh no. Not only did she post the information, but reposted it from a cache and then from a screenshot? Yeah, that’s some serious moral high ground there.
Pooh
Why the long face?
John Cole
Wow. What an asshole.
Michelle Malkin
Hey, it beat’s workin.
Pooh
In seriousness, I think this incident goes a ways towards illustrating the difference between “can” and “should” if that makes sense. The protesters have every right to protest, you have every right to call them idiots. You can even make it easier for your readership to join you in calling them idiots. However, I don’t think you should do so, especially after it is clear that some of your followers are going rather further than simply saying “idiots”.
I am a bit mystified as to how Ezra’s post came to symbolize a “tizzy” (still cheesed about his misreading of your immigration posts, perhaps?)
Brian in Oakland
Malkins comments are awaiting moderation, I think they will be “awaiting” along time.
Josh Trevino
Whoever published Erick’s info was very wrong….
I believe that person goes by “Atrios.” I look forward to the hordes of online lefties and their sense of righteous indignation at the malfeasance of one of their own.
Ben I can’t feel too bad for, but it was still wrong.
First time I’ve heard that unsolicited from the left. Progress.
John Cole
You know, in order for blogs to work, the reader has to make an attempt to understand what the writer is saying. Just a little one.
I did not say “look here for an example of the hysterical commentary,” I said the left wing of the blogosphere is in a tizzy, and linked to a summation post by Ezra. Parts of his post were over the top, but I was referring to his discussion of the left-wing reaction- which was to fly into a tizzy.
I simply do not know what to do with you all- I recognize that I am unclear at times, but there are a few of you who should be pictured under the dictionary definition of pedantic, and others who I am convinced ACTIVELY attempt to misinterpret everything I write.
Steve
I think it was pretty cheap and pointless for Atrios to publish Erick’s AOL IM screen-name, but I hardly think it compares to publishing phone numbers, considering all you have to do is check one box to turn off unsolicited IMs (which many of us have already done to avoid spam)…
Pooh
OH COME ON JOHN. When something says tizzy it doesn’t give the implication that you think that the linked piece is a tizzy?
You’re telling me that it is an intentional misreading to say that this
means that you think the linked piece is a tizzy?
The tizzies of the Ezra Klein are neither tizzies nor are the written by Ezra?
Krista
Ah shit, here we go again…
nyrev
You’re confusing the Ezras of the Left with the Ezra of the Left again. Just because someone links to a source while referring to the tizzies of the Leftern Blogosphere, that in no way indicates that said source is indicative of said tizzies.
This is a frequent problem with leftists. It’s not President Bush’s fault if you willfully confused the Iraqs’ WMD with actual WMD in Iraq.
Pooh
Ok, sorry, that was a little more heated than it should have been. Let me just say that ambiguity is more often the fault of the writer. Even if I was looking for a fight (perhaps…) I didn’t have to stretch your words very far if at all.
capelza
Josh, thank you. Though I have to say that I must be part of the “left” that doesn’t hang on every post Atrios makes. I was going to post that it was him, but I wasn’t sure. I guess I missed the marching orders when he put them out.
There’s hordes on either side, neither of which seems to be able to see that they are a reflection of each other more than anything.
Jim Allen
No, John, assholes are people who link to college students’ personal contact info on a widely-read blog, who post from the cache when the students remove the info from the web and then repost it. Assholes are also the people who think, “yawn, ho-hum, I think I’ll go find something interesting somewhere”.
Yeah, the kids were stupid to put that kind of info on a press release. But I sincerely hope that not all college professors are as uncaring about the death threats being sent to college students as a direct result of what your good buddy Malkin is doing.
Pooh
Josh, if that’s true it does suck, and especially from someone with a commentariat as er roiling as Atrios’s it’s unacceptable.
I’ve personally posted on places asking them to take down other people’s information. Like I’ve said, I can largely give her a pass for posting the info the first time – on the press release = fair game. The REPOSTING is the inexcusable act to me.
Mac Buckets
John — regarding Ezra, I think we all agreed that you shouldn’t have said “sent in a tizzy” and should’ve said “got all drama-queeny.”
Krista
Exactly. It was vicious.
DougJ
Krista, not to have reposted them would have made her — and by extensions all Americans — look weak to the terrorists.
Pooh
Yeah Mac, that would have been much better(?) And certainly much less DRAMA than
Oh, drat and bebother! My ankles are bitten again. Alas.
Krista
Hm. Do I play along, and act like you’re right? Or do I humour you, by vehemently protesting your statement? Or do I gently chide you for using such a weak snark on me?
Decisions, decisions…
Mac Buckets
It was hardball. These kids want to play “rough and tough student activists?” Spitting in the face of free speech and the military isn’t child’s play. Here endeth the lesson.
Pb
John Cole,
Wrong again. Work on that reading comprehension.
Even worse. Here’s a hint–do you know what the word ‘frequently’ means, and how it might differ from words like ‘always’ or ‘never’? Because so far, you’ve shown me that you don’t.
Jesse
Michelle Malkin = Random commenter at firedoglake or some other random liberal site.
Gotcha’.
So, is this going to be of John’s defenses for voting for GOP in November? Cindy Sheehan, stupid college protestors, and the _____ of the Left who actually didn’t say anything?
Steve
Just so we’re clear, Mac, do you think Erick Erickson had it coming too?
capelza
It was hardball? Exactly what lesson did they learn? That they could have Michelle Malkin deliberately sick her hounds on them? The same Michelle Malkin that whines if someone calls her a c*nt? The same Michelle Malkin that screams OUTRAGE of the smallest thing?
So you’ll be okay with someone posting the contact info of an anti-abortion protester who threw blood on someone minding their own business…repeatedly posting it, after death threats and all? It’s all about the lessons right? And the cuntarded revenge more like.
Pooh
Oh delicious irony…
Krista
And if one of them gets killed over it, oh well?
Mac, I have long since agreed that the students behaved stupidly. They had to deal with the death threats when Michelle first posted that contact information. I think that was more than enough “lesson” for them, thank you very much. Malkin was then informed about the death threats. She was asked to take the contact info down, and not only refused, but re-posted it. That’s not hardball. That’s being a vicious asshole.
Krista
cuntarded?
capelza
Is that a bad word Krista?
Pooh
You say tomato,
Mac Buckets
Don’t know Erick — fill me in. Did he lead public, borderline-seditious protests, send a proud press release with his personal information on it, and then try to hide from the inevitable opposition, too?
Steve
Right, just as I thought. Only one’s own team is permitted to play “hardball.”
Blue Neponset
He is a RedState.org editor and not too long ago he called Cindy Sheehan a ‘media whore’. He is also a pretty good guy despite his political beliefs, and he didn’t deserve the harrassment he received as a result of his Sheehan comment.
Mac Buckets
Take a guess — one has something to do with personal info on press releases (they’ve already learned this one, obviously, as most — not all — of the other sites which had the press release posted have now changed the contact information). The other has to do with the public attitudes towards students carrying signs that say “Fuck the Military” and shouting down, stealing from, and throwing rocks at American soldiers — don’t expect candy and flowers!
Pb
Mac Buckets,
More like the bloggy version of that–he just said (and says) really stupid stuff on Red State (where his contact information is posted), libeling Cindy Sheehan and all manner of other idiocy–you’d love him!
Pooh
Ah, they asked for it glad you cleared that up, Mac.
jg
Is it just me or is the word ‘sedition’ getting used a lot more often by right wingers lately?
Pb
Blue Neponset,
Well I don’t see how a pretty good guy could have said any of that, politics or no, so I’ll have to disagree. And yes, he said a lot more than just ‘media whore’–I thought that was one of the less offensive portions of his hateful diatribe du jour.
Of course as despicable as that was, at the time, he and his pals weren’t even nearly as crazy as the lunatics over at Free Republic, but I think they’ve managed to step it up since then. Heckuva job, Erick.
Steve
It’s like a polite man’s version of “treason.” Or, another cute ploy, you can just say “they’re on the other side,” and just smile when they ask you to explain what you mean by that.
Mac Buckets
Krista, if anyone was unbalanced enough to try to harm one of these delicate flowers, they wouldn’t need a phone number to do it. They could just go to one of the public SAW pep rallies, or go to the UCSC message boards, where these people post under their own names (oops, now I’ve enabled the wackos!) and discuss their next protests. These aren’t secret, private protests now, are they?
But of course, no one will get hurt. These protesters will rally again, and Malkin will remain ubiquitous. It’s the internet — threats are cheap as day-old chips, but nothing ever happens.
I still haven’t seen anything indicating that she was made aware of threats, or that she was asked to take anything down. If you have anything, please post a link.
According to her site, the only reason she re-posted was to answer “lies” that SAW was telling in radio interviews that indicated that Malkin had dug up the contact info herself. She re-posted the release to show that the contact info came from the original, unscrubbed release, and that she had not gathered it herself. If SAW was saying such things, I don’t see Malkin’s re-post as anything but defending herself from lies.
Don’t get me wrong — I gather that Malkin has a personal loathing for these protesters and regards them as seditious and dangerous for their overt opposition to the military. If they asked her to take it down, or made her aware of threats, I’m betting it’s only 50-50 she would do it.
Pb
Conservatives have always talked about sedition, and today’s Republicans are no different. They talk about
small governmentmoral values and sedition. Or was that tradition. Oh well, probably not much difference anyhow, maybe no one will notice…Steve
Mac, for the love of God, just read her site. In this post, she makes reference to the “death threats that SAW organizers allegedly received,” and then proceeds to supply four new links to sites where the contact information is available. Nor did she, after learning of the “alleged” death threats, go back and edit the phone numbers out of her prior posts.
And you STILL haven’t admitted you were completely, 100% wrong that “all she did was link to a press release.”
Pb
Pay attention, Mr. Mac-y:
From the link you missed upthread.
Cyrus
You can give a lesson about what’s likely or practical or predictable if you want, but expect to get ignored if you’re lucky. More likely, misinterpreted.
We know death threats from hateful wackos would be the likely result of including your personal contact information in something like this. If the students didn’t know it, they must have been pretty naive. But that doesn’t make it any more moral for Malkin to do what she did. Examples abound; to choose one that’s not emotionally charged, burglary doesn’t become legal or ethical if the homeowner didn’t lock his door when he left in the morning.
I know atrios, kos diarists, and other people post the office contact information of established politicians, pundits or other media figures, but if you think that’s equivalent to this, I beg you to explain it to me. In simple terms. As if I were eight years old. If atrios posted the personal contact information of a private citizen in this way, then he was being a big asshole too.
Also, I’ll have to ask for an explanation of what happened to Erick Erickson and Ben Domenech. I know who the latter is but not the former, and I guess I just completely missed when and how their phone numbers (AIM screen names?) were given out.
The Other Steve
I do get to say that, because I know that when I was at dKos we policed the boards and prevented this sort of thing.
But now you’re sitting here defending Michelle Malkin.
I guess that’s the thing I find odd. If it’s ok, then it’s ok for the left to do it too. You don’t get to say it’s wrong for the left, but ok for the right.
You need to look in the mirror…
Again, I’m telling you. At dKos this is not an accepted form of protest. We would troll rate such posts. I don’t recall ever seeing Ben Domenech’s personal info posted, and if it had been it would have been troll rated.
Yet you are sitting here defending Michelle Malkin. That’s the discrepancy that you wish to willfully ignore. You’re just completely utterly blind to the implications of this.
This isn’t the first time this has happened. I first came to this blog when Tawanda Goldstein was complaining about a UNI professor calling the advisors of another student, claiming that was wrong.. and then proceeded to post the personal contact info of the professor urging everybody to send him nasty messages.
You get a choice. You can either claim it’s wrong, or you can claim it’s acceptable. You don’t get to say IOKIYAR.
The Other Steve
Ok is this a DougJ spoof? I know he’s been running around claiming equivalency between right and left.
I told you, and Pb confirmed. Posting personal information is a definate no-no at dKos and will get posts banned.
I’m not saying it never happens.
But all of your examples are about comments. What about front page bloggers with the number of hits as Malkin has?
Can you provide examples of kos, atrios, kevin drum, josh marshall providing this level of detail on their front page? Just curious. They just don’t seem to be as mean spirited to resort to such lowball tactics.
Mac Buckets
She only made it possible for people to express their displeasure at what she no doubt considers to be a seditious, anti-American protest. That the SAW team published their own personal information as their only contact info was stupid, but that’s the feedback line that Malkin had available, so she published it. She also included the Chancellor and Asst. Chancellor of the University’s contact info (note that it’s their office info, not personal).
Again, no harm will come to the students or Malkin. It’s the ten millionth case of internet threats (I’m 6’4″, 260 lbs., and I’ll kick yer ass!) which amount to nothing.
Pb
Incidentally, while Erick was busy libeling Cindy Sheehan and bawling about how he was being harrassed, what did Daily Kos firebrand and then front-page poster Armando have to say about it?
Yeah, John. The left and the right are exactly the same here, that must be the lesson. Also, the word ‘frequently’ doesn’t qualify anything when you disagree with the person using it. Thanks for informing us all.
Mac Buckets
Because I was 100% right, that’s why. She didn’t dig up any personal info on anyone. She only published what was made available by the protesters themselves. I’m sorry you don’t like that she re-linked to the cached version and the screenshot, but as I explained before, she says she was responding to what she perceived as “lies” coming from SAW that said she dug up the contact information.
Again, these people are not working in secret. They post on their message boards under their own names. They publish when and where they are going to protest. Santa Cruz’s email address format is such that anyone can figure out their email addresses just by knowing their names. If any nut wanted to do the students harm, SAW provides more “helpful” information themselves than Malkin ever did.
Mac Buckets
I forget: Is Armando the very embodiment of the Left today, or is he just one commenter of many? You guys pull that switch so often, I never know which way it stands.
Mac Buckets
“This kind of thing?” Was there another case of people being so dumb as to post their private information in a press release about a controversial protest? I sincerely doubt that. Again, the info in the press release was the only contact info available to express displeasure at what the students were doing, and it was published many places on the ‘net. Should the protesters have gotten a free pass on feedback because they were stupid? That’s a hard one to sell — good luck.
Steve
Do you understand that a screenshot is not just a link?
Do you understand that cutting-and-pasting the students’ contact information onto your website is not just a link?
Do you understand that the ONLY part of the press release she posted on her website was the contact information?
Your statement was that “Malkin only linked to the students own press release.” That is simply false. I wish you were honest enough to admit it.
jg
How many times are you going to say seditious today? Protesting is seditious now?
Jim Allen
I can’t think of one time I’ve agreed with anything Don Surber has posted, either here or the (admittedly) few times I’ve checked out his own blog.
Until now.
He gets it.
It’s too damn bad that Cole doesn’t.
Mac Buckets
Sigh…Of course not, you hopeless simpleton. The goal of the protest is what would make it seditious.
Pooh
You’re going to have to do much better than that, or be willing to go all the way and agree that the SAW members should be strung from a yardarm.
Slide.
are we all in agreement that MacBuckets is one of the fucking dumbest guys on the planet ? Notwithstanding Douglas Feith.
Mac Buckets
What’s the effective difference, Steve? No one had to actually click on the link to see it? That’s called an excerpt, and it happens all the time, everywhere. Would it make you feel better if all of us would refrain from posting excerpts when we link now — how would slide survive? Come on, being a pedant is just going to muddle the issue.
The point was that she didn’t post anything that wasn’t stated clearly on SAW’s own virtual letterhead. That she excerpted or later took a screenshot (under circumstances which she explained) doesn’t change that fact.
Mac Buckets
Why? Because you say so? No thanks. I’lll speak for myself.
I only said that Malkin felt the protests were seditious — I think it’s a borderline call at best (“Fuck the Military” comes pretty close on first glance), but I’m not a lawyer.
Mac Buckets
A witless, third-grade, adds-nothing slur from Joe? At least we know it’s not a spoofer!
Pooh
Ok, sorry for the misreading, Mac. That said, it comes nowhere near “Sedition” on any glance. “Indecency”, perhaps, but doubtful. The bar for ‘treason’ is set pretty high because people figured out pretty quick that it’s a powerful political club that Malkin, for one is not afraid to swing.
Slide.
bucket boy:
bucket boy:
just playing by your rules bucketboy, don’t cry.
Mac Buckets
Actively impeding the US military would seem a serious act. Quotes like “In order to stop the war, you have to make it more difficult to wage war” are not helping their case.
Slide.
bucketboy opining on sedition:
We’re fighting for democracy over there so we don’t have to have to exercise it here.
Steve
The Supreme Court long ago ruled that the First Amendment protects your right to walk around a courthouse with a jacket reading “Fuck the Draft.” So no, protesting against military recruiters doesn’t come anywhere close to treasonous behavior. You are, of course, free to engage in all the pro-military counterspeech you like.
Krista
Yay, Don! That actually makes up for the denim shirt. I shall never mention it again.
Steve
Let’s consider two scenarios so you can tell us if you really believe them to be the exact same thing.
1. Malkin posts a link to the students’ press release. Some people click through, notice that the students’ phone numbers and email addresses are at the bottom of the press release, and harass them.
2. Malkin copies the names, phone numbers and email addresses from the press release and puts them on the front of her website, in bold type, together with a link to the press release. Note that she did not “excerpt” one word from the press release other than the contact information. After the students change their press release, she goes on to post a link to the cached version, a screenshot, and several more links to other places where the information can be found.
And yet, even though the second scenario is the real one, you insist on claiming that it’s effectively the same thing as the first scenario. She “only linked to the students’ own press release.” Good God.
Pooh
Yes, actively impeding the military would do the trick…As Steve points out printing nasty signs on placards doesn’t quite qualify.
DougJ
If you’d asked me a few years ago, I would have been dead set against sending death threats to protesters. But 911 changed everything. We learned that oceans cannot protect us. As far as I’m concerned, we can’t afford not to send death threats to anti-military protesters.
Mac Buckets
Of course not. The only pertinent part of the press release to her was the contact info.
I passed along her reasons for re-posting (to refute SAW’s “lies” about her), and you have all chosen to ignore it, probably since it goes against your “Everything Malkin does is motivated by pure evil” narrative. But go ahead, keep ignoring the explanation and I’ll keep correcting you.
Yes, they are effectively the same thing — she just saved some people the clickthrough by exerpting…just like everyone else does.
Mac Buckets
Only printing nasty signs is not all the protesters did. They actively impeded the military from giving recruiting information to interested students. They blocked their booth, stole their materials, threw a rock at their car, and last year they slashed their tires.
As you say, that would do the trick, or at least come close.
Mac Buckets
You flatter yourself (since no one will do it for you).
The Other Steve
BTW, Erick Erickson’s personal information is available if you look at the contact info for his website. Address and phone #. So he’s essentially stamping his blog with his contact info. And no, I’m not telling you how to find it, but it is relatively easy and anybody with any technical background would know it as the first place to go look.
So the question to Buckets and Cole is it still wrong to harass Erick despite him giving out his contact info and encouraging people to contact him?
BTW, to Josh Trevino’s claim… I googled it, and atrios only gave out Erickson’s IM address. link here
Doesn’t seem quite comparable to Michelle Malkin.
You guys want to try again? I’m looking for some nice links.
As Cole said, but ignored for himself. I’m tired of people overlooking the whackos in their midst.
t. jasper parnell
Nonsense this whole contremps is nonsense. Ms. Malkin is a dope and a nictitator; however, the SAW folks necessarily faced a rapid and negative response from those who disagree with their actions and utterances regardless of her decision to grease the skids for those to dang dumb to use google. The arguments pro and con re the posting are garbage. It is not like lies are being told or innocents, in the sense of individuals unrelated to the event, are drawn into the fray. Mr. Cole is correct if one publically weighs in on issues of substance and importance expect the worst.
Speech is free. But negative, violent stupid response as well as intelligent one (of which I have yet to see a one in this particular incident) are par for the course.
I seem to recall, although I may be wrong — I often am, but there was some coach of some football team somewhere or another who made a stupid and uniformed comment on the need for more speed which he associated with the need for more men of a particular phenotype. In that case, as I recall but I may be incorrect, the legitimacy of the responses were somewhat other than these here today.
Is respect for responding to speech or other acts a matter of prinicpal or a matter of policy?
Pooh
Not there yet. You might be able to see the stadium with the finish line from here, but you aren’t inside yet.
Jess
IF “they” did indeed do these things (although how “they” managed to throw ONE alleged rock is puzzling), then those individuals who chose to do that are breaking the law and the local law officials should deal with it. But clearly the bulk of the protest was no more “seditious” than wingnuts saying “fuck the lefties”, and was certainly more legal and civilized than wingnuts saying “kill the lefties.”
MacBuckets, explain why Malkin would post that contact information in the first place, in your opinion, if not to allow her angry followers a target for their rage? (Bear in mind that we have absolutely no evidence that any of the people listed had anything to do with a rock being thrown, if one was actually thrown.) Do you really think its appropriate to harass and intimidate people with whom you disagree? If they wanted to voice their disagreement publicly, wouldn’t it be better to do so on a left-leaning website, or in a letter to the editor, or in a counter-protest? The fact that you keep calling the protesters “seditous” suggests that the goal was to shut them up, rather than to simply voice disagreement.
The attitudes you appear to be supporting are absolutely counter to the law and the first amendment, so it seems that you, sir, are the one being seditious, and if Malkin is encouraging some sort of vigilante behaviour, then she is as well.
Let me put this simply:
Protesting military recruitment = legal = not seditious
Vigilante violence and harassment = illegal = seditious
Pb
The Other Steve,
Actually, Atrios only reposted some of Erick’s contact information from Red State–excerpted it, if you will. And as we all know now thanks to Mac Buckets, excerpts or screen shots are really no different from links–and more convenient too! So really, what he did is no different from linking to Red State, and he didn’t even have to go digging around in Google’s cache. What’s all the fuss about again, Mac?
Randolph Fritz
“If you’d asked me a few years ago, I would have been dead set against sending death threats to protesters. But 911 changed everything. We learned that oceans cannot protect us. As far as I’m concerned, we can’t afford not to send death threats to anti-military protesters.”
Gee, and here I thought we learned that lesson back in 1941. If this isn’t parody, it’s cowardice and folly.
Jim Allen
Or the fourth option — DougJ.
John S.
MacBuckets gives up a day of his precious freedom-loving time to repel the barbarian lefty horde.
John Cole is willfully and objectively misunderstood by the barbarian lefty horde.
Another day at Balloon Juice. Film at 11.
Steve
Are we following along, folks? Malkin is definitely not responsible for any death threats that result from posting that contact information. But the leftie protest organizers are totally responsible if anyone throws a rock! There you have it.
The Other Steve
What if it was a righty syncophant who threw a rock, and then pointed at the leftie and said “he did it!”?
Mr Furious
Um, Mac, “actively impeding the military” is interfering with a military operation a little further down the line than recruiting at a fucking college job fair
Sweet Jesus.
Jim Allen
The leftie shouldn’t have been there in the first place; thus, the leftie is still responsible.
BIRDZILLA
These stupid knuckle draggers have,nt become one bit civilized still a bunch of jerks and frankly they all should lose their money and be forced to get off their fat lazy butts sitting in front of their TV stuffing their fat worthless pieholes and get a jobs and screw their dignanty
Blue Neponset
Pb,
Sometimes people go too far when the comment on political blogs. I have written things that I have later regretted writing, but I can assure you that I am an all around good guy. IMO, Erick just went too far, but he later apologized for his choice of words.
Jim Allen
Apparently it doesn’t take quite an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriters, after all. You can get something barely readable with just one of each.
Mac Buckets
Because you say so?
Pb
Blue Neponset,
That I’ll concede. :)
No, he grudgingly apologized for his choice of those two particular words, without ever coming close to understanding how entirely despicable the rest of his post was. And then, you know, going on to attack unnamed lefties for being such hypocrites themselves for being angry at him when they’re such meanies and all.
Now, as a (named) ‘lefty’, I’ll just say that I’m a relatively peaceful person, and I don’t know Erick or Erick’s mother or Cindy Sheehan or Cindy Sheehan’s dead son personally, but I certainly would never attack Erick’s mother the way Erick attacked Cindy Sheehan, whether or not Erick had died in combat, and if he had attacked mine like that, he’d definitely have a fight on his hands, and deservedly so–and it’d take a hell of a lot more than his idiotic non-apology apology which amounted to “I’m sorry I called your mom a media whore, but I stand by my remark that she was ‘using the body of a dead solider’ (the ‘dead soldier’ in question of course being her own dead son) ‘to get her fifteen minutes of fame’, etc., etc.” to cut it.
Mac Buckets
You say “target their rage” — I say “express their displeasure.” Why must there be another reason? That’s a perfectly legitimate one. The idiots just left only their personal info instead of the smart thing, which would’ve been a group email (a change they have since made).
You mean like blocking a job-fair booth with a couple hundred bodies, stealing their materials so they can’t give them to interested students, throwing a rock at a car, slashing tires? That kind of harassment and intimidation? No, that is entirely inappropriate, unacceptable, and brutish — the clear mark of inferior minds.
Jess, no offense, but that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. None of it makes a whit of sense. Try again to explain how shutting Malkin up is a defense of the First Amendment, but her publishing a press release is against the law. I can’t wait. By the way, saying Malkin might be involved in vigilante behavior isn’t exactly covering you in glory.
Yeah, that was simple, in every sense of the word. Harrassment = sedition… PRICELESS!
Krista
Well, there must be some sort of legal clarification indicated somewhere. I can’t see something like sedition being left open to interpretation. And I’m inclined to agree with Mr. Furious, in that impeding the military at a college job fair is a very different kettle of fish than impeding them in an actual military operation. Hell, my friends and I have actively impeded the military’s progress through various Halifax watering holes, but I certainly wouldn’t have called that sedition.
Webster’s defines sedition as “incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority” Once again, that’s open to interpretation. Is the military representative of lawful authority when recruiting at a career fair? They were not going to this job fair with any sort of authoritative intent, one would presume. They were going in solely to recruit. That’s why I don’t think that those protests count as sedition. They were not impeding the military from performing any sort of authoritative or military duties.
Any lawyers or experts in this field, please feel free to enlighten me if I’m incorrect on this.
Mac Buckets
Warming up for the Strawgrasping Olympics this summer?
Steve
For about the twentieth time, she didn’t publish a press release. She still hasn’t published the press release. She published their contact information, period.
The fact that she got it from a press release, as opposed to the phone book or a Google search, means zero, although you seem to think that when you put your contact information in a press release you’re intending to display it to the whole world rather than just to the media, in case the media wants to contact them. You are wrong.
I personally kind of find this stuff abhorrent and way beyond free speech. On the other hand, it seems to be getting increasinly embellished, kind of like the story of Michael Steele’s Oreos. If one person throws a rock at a car I don’t think that warrants harassing the organizers of the protest. But blocking access, that’s not free speech.
Basically, I want to make a list of all the people who are outraged by that behavior, and also a list of all the people who are just as outraged when the same or worse behavior occurs at abortion clinics across the nation. And unless your name appears on both lists, you have zero credibility and need to shut the fuck up.
Tony Alva
You guys are unbelievable… Here’s how I see it. A bunch of ignorant college kids ruined a couple of enlisted guys cars, chased them off campus, perhaps threatening their safety for doing nothing but what was asked of them by their superiors, and all you relativists want to do is talk about Malkin being a pot stirring Hannity fellatio queen and make light of the outrage everyone should be feeling.
I’m calling bullshit on all of you. Death threats and hubris not withstanding, these kids fucked up and someone should call them on it. If the administration or their weak ass parents don’t, than the law should. The law is clear on recruiting and ROTC activity at institutions that accept fed funds. THAT’S the story.
Bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. In an age where their generation is a hundred times more technically savvy than anyone commenting on this blog is, they should have known that cowardly hiding amongst the crowd is not as easy as it used to be.
Malkin did the administration a favor. Now they have a chance to do the right thing by locating these kids, and bounce them out on their ear. What makes their acts any different than asshat frat boys force feeding a pledge vodka? The organizers ARE responsible. The law is clear. Peaceful protest is one thing, endangering lives and property is another. How ‘bout going to freakin class? I’m sure John would appreciate seeing more fannies in the seats.
That’s what you all should be discussing, not who posted what. Who gives a shit about that. I sure don’t.
Pb
Tony Alva,
Then call the cops. Call the alleged enlisted guys and encourage them to make a federal case out of it. Knock yourself out.
Like when people receive death threats? Tell it to Malkin.
Mac Buckets
If you publish your personal contact information for everyone to see, then you must expect personal contacts, and that’s your stupid mistake. That being said, anyone who is moronic enough to threaten someone on their phone or email or a message board is a loser (and likely an impotent coward) and is entirely, 100% to blame for what they said or wrote.
Jim Allen
Well, gee, Tony, now that I know what actually happened, my eyes are wide open. These students are nothing but rampaging berserkers! They’re so powerful, they’re able to drive the United States Army away with nothing more than a rock! Death threats mean nothing to them! We must make sure that the Michelle Malkins of the Internets are protected! To the parapets, all! We’ll hang every last one of them!
Jeebus, what an asshat.
Tony Alva
Pb,
Again, BULLSHIT. Malkin’s a big girl, she knows what she’s doing. I’m sure she can handle herself just fine. It’s the game she’s in.
These bratty kids need to know what CONSEQUENCES are. The admin of the school should know what their responsibilities are and see to it that this crap doesn’t happen again.
I sincerely hope the local authorities make arrests for those responsible. How can you not be disgusted by this incident? This isn’t an act of free speech, it an act of censorship by the few. They are the best example of what they’re protesting against. A couple E4 recruiters sitting at a table peacably handing out pamphlets one minute and being chased out by a frenzied gang of misfits?
Don’t want to join the service? Fine, move on the next booth.
It’s funny, I called one of the numbers listed to see if they checked out, and on one of them I got a message from some chicklet thanking all those who called in support for their actions. Didn’t sound like they were in fear of their lives to me.
I’ll ask you again, what makes the actions of these organizers any different than the leadership of a Fraternity who condones and promotes forced drinking, hazing, etc…?
There is no difference. The next thing these kids ought to hear is, “Welcome to N. Cali Juco…”
Mac Buckets
Obviously, you should be complaining to the media outlets themselves about this, as many printed the whole release, with the contact information, on their websites. I guess they don’t know those rules.
Opponents are more likely contacting the organizers because they think their cause is anti-American and their methods are goonish, not just because someone threw a rock.
It is certainly harassment and intimidation, though, which is what we were talking about in that instance. Whether forcing recruiters off-campus (recruiters who show remarkable restraint, by the way) so they can’t talk to interested students shows respect for free speech or fear of free speech, I’ll let you decide for yourself.
Sorry, but US soldiers get special dispensation from me against being publicly derided by people whose lives the soldiers would die to protect. After all, everyone, even the lefties, supports the troops, right (or are we finding out that was all bullshit)? So you can protest abortion clinics, you can protest the cosmetics factory, you can protest the local Hooters…but if you shout down our soldiers, or throw rocks at them, you are a special form of scum.
Steve
Blocking access to abortion clinics is just fine, but blocking access to military recruiters makes you special scum. About the level of intellectual honesty I expected from Mac.
Jim Allen
And helping increase the number of death threats against protesters makes you an out and out hero.
McNulty
Which is why liberals have zero credibility when they scream about Diebold or Florida 2000, since they do not and have never cared about election fraud when it’s Democrats in Philly or Chicago or Milwaukee or St Louis engaging in fraud and intimidation.
So, shut the fuck up about that.
Pb
Tony Alva,
Well, you would know; I bow to your superior wisdom in matters of bullshit.
Yep, I agree. And if she gets sued for harassment, then that should make the case against her even more airtight.
[deranged ranting and stalking deleted]
Even more airtight.
Steve
Actually, it was kind of humorous to watch conservatives make the exact same arguments in Washington in 2004 that they had ridiculed over and over just four years previously.
Mac Buckets
I clearly explained my reasoning. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make me dishonest. Open your mind a bit.
Mac Buckets
Strawman! Get your red-hot strawman!
jg
Isn’t there a famous quote about you can tell you’re in a dictatorship when the military is given preferential treatment over citizens?
Jess
Exactly–it is the job of local law enforcement to handle any illegal behavior in a situation like this. It is not the job, or the right, of Malkin et al to encourage potentially illegal actions (death threats, harassment, violence, etc.) against protesters whose cause they disagree with. This is what you and Mac Buckets just don’t seem to understand. If those protesters encourage their followers to call Malkin on her home phone and threaten her life, then I’ll say the same thing to them. They have no power or right to shut her up, but they have every right to point out what a prick she is for her un-American attitude.
As Krista pointed out above, sedition is “incitement or resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority.” Certain kinds of harassment, and all kinds of death threats, are illegal, even when inflicted on those you disagree with. Therefore, encouraging those sorts of things as a form of vigilante social control undermines legal authority and is a form of sedition. Critique those despicable students all you like–just do so appropriately and legally, and encourage your readers to do the same. Why is this fundamental American concept so difficult for you guys to understand?
ppGaz
I agree with Mac. You cannot ask people to risk their lives and then interfere with the work of the military.
Mac Buckets
So anytime anyone publishes an email address, they are “encouraging potentially illegal actions?” How about if I just tell you to write your congressperson — I’m clearly encouraging you to make death threats, right?
That’s a ridiculous standard of responsibility, and no one in their right mind would agree with it.
Nope, sorry, that’s still dumb. A lawyer would have a real laugh. Posting a publicly-available email address is not vigilantism, nor is it sedition, no matter how silly an argument you care to make.
Steve
Oh, now she only published an email address, not even the phone numbers!
The Other Steve
So making obscene phone calls and death threats is going to show them.
Interesting how both actions are against the law.
Some Other Brian Guy
No, it was a copy of a copy of a link to the email address.
Not at all the same as those evil lefties who publish email info!
WHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Jess
You are still sidestepping the issue of WHY Malkin would publish the home phone numbers of private individuals even after they asked her to stop because of the ILLEGAL threats and harassment they were subjected to. And don’t try to claim those were the numbers of the people who allegedly acted illegally at the protest–you have absolutely no evidence of that, and that’s what the local law officials are there to determine.
What do you think a responsible host should have done in her position? What do you think a left-wing site should do in a similar position? I would say that anyone protesting against any other group in a society such as ours should encourage people to speak out, but discourage harassment, threats, intimidation tactics, etc. Did Malkin do this? I don’t think so.
As for the laughing lawyers, I’m not making a point about the letter of the law, but the spirit of the first amendment. If you support intimidation tactics then you do not support free speech. If you support free speech, then you cannot support what Malkin has done. If you don’t want to live in a society predicated on individual rights and freedom, then what the hell are you doing here?
(and for the record, no I’m not a big fan of protests against the military, but that’s beside the point.)
Jess
Okay, I see in this update that Malkin did at least give lip service to the notion that one should not threaten fellow Americans merely because one disagrees with them, but I think it should be obvious to any adult that taking responsibility for one’s actions means understanding and taking responsibility for the real-world consequences of those actions–and Malkin was told quite clearly what the consequences of her actions were, and yet she posted the information AGAIN. The only logical conclusion is that these intimidation tactics by her readers were exactly what she intended. And this is wrong, whether it’s done by someone on the left or the right.
Mac Buckets, do you have any sense of ethics and personal responsibility? Are you morally opposed to the notion of individual rights and free speech, or do you just want to reserve those rights for the people who think just like you?
the Internet
Even the Internet needs a break once in a while, but it seems, despite the moderate disposition of this site’s proprietor, there’s no rest for the weary here. Same obnoxious volume in the comments, just less people shouting.
ppGaz
You’re the modern day version of the character we used to see downtown on a streetcorner every day, with a “Repent!” sign.
Wonder whatever happened to him?
Mac Buckets
Learn to read, Steve. I never said that.
Jim Allen
I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Makes no sense in this context, anyway.
Steve
Learn to be honest, Mac.
Mac Buckets
I’ll give you one last chance at cogency, Jess.
Side-stepping? Moi? If you would read the thread, you’d see I noted that she answered this question about her re-posting of the numbers from cache multiple times above. I don’t feel like re-re-re-repeating my self, but it has to do with Malkin refuting what she perceived as SAW’s lies about her.
Of course, you are wrong, but I will predict that even if you were made aware that Malkin discouraged threats and such, you’d slough it off as “lip service” because it doesn’t fit the lefty narrative of “Everything Rightwing Pundits Do Is Motivated By Pure Evil.”
“What Malkin has done?” Don’t you mean “what SAW has done?” The only people supporting intimidation tactics (besides the only truly responsible people — those who perpetrated the intimidation) were the organizers of these ongoing recruitment protests, which have historically resulted in violent, hostile actions against the military recruiters. The organizers knew what would happen, and they wanted it. Malkin, in stark contrast, never asked anyone to intimidate anyone. I can’t be more clear.
The only people suppressing free speech in this case were the students who forced the military off-campus. Their sole intent was to stifle the recruiters’ ability to give information to interested students at the job fair (and why in the world are these muppets so afraid of a job fair booth, anyway?). Malkin didn’t restrict free speech — frankly, it would have been impossible to do so from her blog even if she had wanted.
This isn’t about free speech. This is about students who thought they were bigshots who knew everything, then found out abruptly that, to the real, off-campus world, they were only stupid kids. Now they want everyone to offer them shelter from the storm they stupidly created. We’ve all gone through similar stuff growing up — they’ll survive, and they’ll be smarter for it.
Mac Buckets
OK, I admit, I cheated on that one…
What tripe you can spew! On this page I’ve slammed anyone on either side who is moronic and cowardly enough to threaten or to infringe on the rights or property of another person just because they don’t agree politically. Have you likewise on this page condemned as idiots the rock-throwers, and tire-slashers, the thieves, and the speech-stiflers who organized and attended this protest against our soldiers?
Tell me some more about ethics.
Mac Buckets
You were arguing against a position I never took (“helping increase the number of death threats against protesters makes you an out and out hero.”). Pretty much the dictionary definition of a strawman, Jim.
Mac Buckets
Come on, it should be easy to pull the blockquote where I said it! It should be on this page! You got nothing and just can’t admit it. Weak.
Jim Allen
Don’t see where I ever said that was your position, Mac. For that matter, I wasn’t arguing against any position at all, merely making my own comment (which you are welcome to take or leave).
Positing that I was making an arguement, so you could knock it down — now that’s a straw man (which is two words, by the way).
Steve
Mac, you responded to the claim that “It is not the job, or the right, of Malkin et al to encourage potentially illegal actions (death threats, harassment, violence, etc.) against protesters whose cause they disagree with” by saying
And now you’re trying to say “oh, I never tried to imply the only thing she did was publish an email address.” Like hell.
jg
Not everytime. But this time…? What the hell was her intent if not to give her angry readers an outlet for their anger? And how stupid do you have to be to not realize some knuckle draggers might go over the line with the info you provided?
Mac Buckets
That was a hypothetical which never even mentioned Malkin, did it? I’ve stated over and over again on this page that the phone numbers were also published — I’ve got no reason to hide anything.
Mac Buckets
Yes, that’s called feedback, like when you write your Congressperson or a letter to the editor. Is feedback illegal or immoral now? Is the left into crushing dissent now?
Correction: With the info they themselves provided — info which can still be gathered on lefty sites on the web, as unbelievable as that sounds.
Look, the small %age of knuckle-draggers on both sides are responsible for their own actions. No one else is culpable, especially since Malkin clearly stated that anyone contacting the students should be civil.
In short, if I tell you to write your Congressperson, I’m not responsible if you send anthrax. You are.
Mac Buckets
Then it was a very curious thing to post just after your blockquote referring to me. But whatever…
Sure, you were merely commenting snarkily about a pro-Malkin position of your own invention.
Mac Buckets
A post by commenter Vinteuil at Armando and Trevino’s new place reminds us that dKos and the lefty newspapers aren’t above digging up (no press release required!) and publishing the most personal info on those who dare to oppose their electoral goals:
(Emphasis mine)
Steve
Let’s have a look at the exact thing you responded to.
Enough, please.
Mac Buckets
Steve, I get it — you don’t understand hypotheticals. Again, I have nothing to hide, and my posts are all over this page noting the phone numbers. Do you even know what your point is anymore?
Catrina
I’ll make the point, Malkin is a troublemaker, the primary purpose of her blog and her blogging is to whine and bitch with the intentions to incite a riot throughout the blogosphere.
She’s horrible, common, has no manners and is a knuckle-dragging polemicist trapped by her own self invovement and internalized self hatred.
Let’s face it, she is a tortured monster that hasn’t had a good night’s sleep since somewhere between the wheel and fire…some day she will “get it”, but not anytime soon, she has allot of emotional growing up to do. And the fact that Jesse writes most of that blog and influences her is even scarier. He eggs her on…
She’s like the type that only changes after something drastic happens and either someone gets hurt due to her careless actions or she herself suffers a near-death experience to make her wise up and mend her ways.