I’m not sure if you all caught it or not, but Larry O’Donnell just wrecked Franklin Graham, who apparently thought God would save him from looking like a first class clown regarding his birther nonsense and whether or not Obama is a Christian. By the end of the interview, Graham was nearly babbling incoherently. Graham basically did for Christianity as a whole tonight what decades of child rape did to the Catholic church.
I’ll post the video when I have it.
I’ll go OT here – partyontheinternet – live video feed of ben folds, amanda palmer, damian kulash and neil gaiman recording a record in 8 hours.
And yeah, Graham is a tool.
I’ll run out to the store now and get a pack of ciggies. Sounds as if I might have the perfect excuse to take up the habit.
I can’t wait to see the video.
The bitch slapping O’Donnell gave Limbaugh was also very good. But, yeah, Graham was handed his head,
That does sound like something worth watching. I haven’t added The Last Word as a regular podcast after Olbermann was kicked because O’Donnell irritates me a bit too much, but when he’s at the top of his game he can be devastating.
Ugh. I changed channels because I didn’t want to see that douchebag Graham. Sorry I missed it live.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Oh Cole, you’re such a cock tease. Don’t tell us about that shit and then make us wait for the video.
Thanks. Wouldn’t know where to get random cable tv clips without you.
It was incredibly painful to watch, I almost had to look away. But it was a thing of beauty. And the bible reading he did for el-Rushbo was priceless. Hypocrites to the max.
@arguingwithsignposts: Damn, that’s a seriously awesome line-up.
Please, please post this ASAP.
Imagine if, say, Wal-Mart was proved to have facilitated child rape.
Would anyone be willing to be seen buying from or selling to such a moral abomination of an enterprise?
I have that tivo thing on! Yay.
And so as not to disappoint my loyal fans…
Obama just explained why you shouldn’t get too worked up about things like Guantanamo:
I agree with John’s summation (and I say this as someone who attends a wonderful Episcopal church fairly regularly). It’s people like him that give the people in my diocese nausea.
Meanwhile, read this Digby piece recommended a few threads back (sorry for the lack of h/t here). Also, see this and this. The State Dept. is proposing a new, incredibly intrusive questionnaire for getting or renewing a passport. Like prima facie absurdly intrusive.
Do you know who was present at your birth? Where and when religious services where held around your birth? What your mother’s addresses and jobs where in the year leading up to your birth? The dates of your mothers’ prenatal doctors appointments? The name, address, and phone number of your supervisor at your first job in high school? No?! Then you either get no passport, have to hire a private detective to figure these things out, or commit perjury on your application. It really is quite fucked up and confusing. It’s hard to tell if this is meant to be for everyone, or if it is constructing arbitrary burdens for suspect applications (i.e., brown applications).
Regardless, the most ridiculous aspect is the claim it should only take 45 minutes on average to fill out that form.
Watching Graham made my skin crawl. Disgusting.
Then watching Lawrence’s Rewrite slamming Limbaugh was fantastic and also reaffirmed that Jesus seems like a righteous soshulistick dude who was more Shakespearean that Shakespeare.
Franklin Graham video.
@Joe Beese: Narrowing religious abominations to the last few decades of child rape is more than generous.
Well, religions have proven to be remarkably resilient to the asshattery of those who proclaim to speak authoritatively on their behalf. Nothing will change here, not even Grahams reputation.
I saw it and man was it good.
Cigarettes might be necessary for y’all.
Didn’t his father, Billy Graham, steer clear of politics?
I know he advised Presidents, but from what little I’ve read, I believe he paid a visit to all of them from Eisenhower to Bush, Jr., whether Democrat or Republican.
From what I remember of Rev. Billy Graham, he wasn’t running around Sunday news shows and other programs talking about any particular politician.
Franklin Graham’s only famous because of his daddy. I don’t see why people take him so seriously or give him his own platform. He’s managing the huge religious enterprise his father created. That is all. I don’t think it warrants making him a big shot.
@stuckinred: No, no, no – that’s the 2012 GOP Convention.
@stuckinred: Hah– I can’t even listen to Prokofiev without thinking of that movie.
Probably more appropriate for a pic of Arizona’s legislature, though…
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Joe Beese: Fan. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
Alright. Rev. Graham didn’t do much to bring me closer to God, I’ll say that first. But I’m not so sure O’Donnell did any damage to him, unless the viewer were already disposed toward reason and fair-mindedness.
@gene108: It’s pretty much religious wingnut welfare.
@Loneoak: Actually, they;re not. The requirement is if you don’t have a state issued certificate of live birth, you have to do something else to prove you;re a citizen. This is much as it has ever been.
If you don’t have a birth certificate, how do you prove your citizenship? Baptismal records are good, or hospital birth certs, but one of these on their own isn’t enough. Sounds plenty fine to me.
Really, what’s the problem with that other than Obama being Near?
@gene108: He said he did but he really didn’t.
I guess it must be me, and not being able to get past O’Donnell’s smug “know it all” demeanor, but I don’t think his dismemberment of Graham was all that devastating… it came out as more an attack on religion than in getting Graham to admit he’s wrong on O’s birth certificate and his questioning O’s faith…
@gene108: Sadly, no.
Yes, on the First Monday After Easter, O’Donnell handed Graham his ass. And it was good.
Russian gentleman: So who is to say what is moral?
Sonja: Morality is subjective.
Russian gentleman: Subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Moral notions imply attributes to substances which exist only in relational duality.
Russian gentleman: Not as an essential extension of ontological existence.
Sonja: Can we not talk about sex so much?
Thanks Lawrence. It was the Christian thing to do…
Whenever the interviewee says “you’re twisting my words”, it’s over.
Graham’s positions were indefensible.
@stuckinred: Now I’m laughing — that scene was made all the better by the fact that Diane Keaton was beautiful and her nobleman friend was uh, not exactly a looker.
This was one of those movies that my husband and I watched with our eldest and rolled on the floor laughing while she looked at us like we were insane. She’s older now, maybe time to try again!
@sukabi: I have no idea about O’Donnell’s religious views. But using the words of Jesus against a self proclamed Christian is pretty devastating. Graham was left sputtering, spouting nonsense. It was not Dr. Graham’s finest moment.
Horseshit. I am no fan of Christianity, much less Franklin Mini-Cracker, but he doesn’t speak for all Christians, much less represent more than a fraction of American Christians. Sure, he made his variant of the right-wing hijacking of Christianity look hateful and ignorant, but you could crush him in debate every week for a year and it wouldn’t touch the value of Christianity per se, any more than defenestrating Joe Lieberman would achieve the ruin of the Democratic party.
Godbotting and theobabble =/= criminal rape and systematic coverup by one of the Wealthiest institutions on the planet.
The flogging of Rush at the end was quite nice, too.
ETA: Annnnd – I should read through comments before posting to see if a half-dozen people have already said the same thing.
First rule of Christianity: Don’t talk about Christianity.
No, not really. The “rule” you cite is about not parading your faith hypocritically. It has nothing to do with not bearing witness/preaching/debating with opponents.
Funny you should put it that way…
I could say that one reason the Democratic Party is irredeemable as an enterprise is that it reliably gives rise to and empowers specimens of contemptibility like Joseph Lieberman. (Who, as my grandparents would have put it, may he get the cholera and drop dead.)
Whether it intends to or not, American Christianity has inflicted a great deal of obnoxious bullshit on our cultural and political lives. If you believe that it’s outweighed by its nobler qualities, I hope you’ll at least admit that there’s considerable outweighing to be done.
@fhtagn: Really? That’s an interesting interpretation of
Great let’s have another internecine fight over religion: good, tolerable, horrible, silly, worst thing ever? Did I miss any of the choices?
I gotta tell you, I just read that and you’re right. It seems completely open and shut. It could not more obviously be saying not to flaunt how religious you are, because that suggests you’re only in it for the pride.
Doesn’t have a damn thing to do with discussing the religion in general. Of course, it has everything to do with assholes like the Grahams.
EDIT – @Omnes Omnibus:
@Omnes Omnibus: Nope — you got them.
This is simple, Graham presents himself as a “man of God” who professes to revere Jesus Christ and thus, his goal should be to embody and reflect Christ’s teachings. Somehow he got confused along the way and forgot to read the Bible. Unfortunately for everyone else, he has yet to realize his blunder and in the way of most of these assholes, thinks that all he has to do is yell louder so we will all listen to him.
Here’s the video.
I googled for the video and Gawker (Mediaite) had the exact opposite interpretation…
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Have said it elsewhere, will say it here:
There is a kind of evangelical Christian for whom only the evangelical reading of the Christian Bible is considered accurate and, in fact, literal, and anyone who doesn’t hew to that reading — hasn’t “accepted Christ” and made Jesus their “Lord and Savior” in atonement for original sin (with which we are all, according to this reading, equally stained) — is a) not a Christian and b) will go to hell.
So, saying Obama may not be a Christian is not the same as saying he’s Muslim, for people like Graham. It’s saying “Dude may think, like half of America, that he’s a Christian, but he’s not, and he’s going to hell.”
The birther thing is something else, but doubting Obama’s Christianity is an active, functioning piece of the faith that this man and many people like him see as reality in the lives of the unsaved all around them.
@gene108: Just to clarify, Gene, Franklin Graham’s org (Samaritan’s Purse) has little or nothing to do with Billy Graham’s. Samaritan’s Purse does some really lovely things, but they also collude with tax evaders, violate boundaries on religious freedom, and undermine diplomatic efforts all over the world. Franklin Graham is the proverbial bull in the china shop. And he built that organization on his own, with the help of his father’s formidable name and contacts.
Sorry, but you are imposing a reading on the text which is nonsensical. It’s very clearly not an injunction not to discuss Christianity. The whole point of the passage is not to avoid talking about Christianity at all. That would make no sense for any religion that seeks converts, and would guarantee the extinction of the faith in question. The passage is very clearly saying that some people – who are going to be smacked down for it – pray publicly as a way of parading their virtue, rather than communicating with God. This isn’t what prayer should be, and that’s why the writer emphasizes making it a private matter, and not show-boating. There is precisely NOTHING in the passage about not discussing Christianity. Look at what precedes the passage you cite:
Matthew isn’t saying don’t give to the needy – what he is telling Christians to do here is give to the needy, but not make a production of it. The same point is made about prayer immediately afterwards. This is why you can’t just cherry-pick passages and force an interpretation on them. You have to look at the overall context, and that context, in this case, is very clearly about not parading your religion to look good, but practicing it sincerely and without expectation of worldly praise/reward. There is nothing whatsoever in that passage about not talking about Christianity.
When a post goes up on DailyKos with a similar thought, I know the last thing I should expect is to see destruction. Guess that is true here. That was a mild inconvenience at best for Graham. He is not going to lose any sleep.
Jay in Oregon
Wow, Franklin Graham is an asshole right out of the gate on this.
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
But based on his comments in the video, how can Graham make this call? Frankly, it seems rather “convenient” for Graham (and others of his ilk) to hide behind this — smacks of the “get out of jail” card Huckabee used to release criminals.
Not to mention the fact that Obama could recite “Jesus is my lord and savior” for an hour straight on primetime TV and they would still doubt his word because it fits their odious narrative that Obama is one of the “others”.
And Graham is on record saying repugnant things about the Islamic faith — this coupled with his “questions” about Obama, tends to get him grouped with the “Obama is a Muslim” nutcases.
Bottom line is that there may be evangelicals who truly “live the life” but Franklin is not one of them.
On the subject of religious abominations, I just submitted a paper today on the Magdalene laundries in Ireland from 1920 to 1996 for my European history class.
Some pretty bad stuff. If anybody wants a copy, give me an email and I will send it over.
@fhtagn: your bible quotes have absolutely nothing to with modern form political christianity as practiced in contemporary america.
One of the main political parties in America is 99% conservative christian and has the medieval religious doctrine of ensoulment as part of the party platform.
Franklin Graham says the Sheriff is near.
C Nelson Reilly
There’s a big difference between babbling incoherently and speaking in tongues.
Hey Cole, your sister blog is mainstreaming islamophobia.
Tim Kowal ia a raving islamophobe and EDK is mainstreaming him as a front pager.
Conservatives and libertarians are very good at mainstreaming, legitimizing horrible socon “values” like homophobia and racism, like AGW denialism and birtherism and IDT/creationism.
They have been doing it for 50 years.
And im saying if they get to goin’ on legitimizing islamophobia it will work like a charm.
America just got PUBLICALLY HUMILIATED in Iraq. Maliki told Mullen to fuck off. And we are gettin’ our asses handed to us in Af-Pak.
Who is bubba going to pick for a scapegoat here?
Just saw the rerun on MSNBC, and while I don’t think it was the most epic of smackdowns that John described, it was a very good pushback against Graham’s contradictions.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@JCT: I think the most salient piece of the interview is that opening salvo, and his final salvo in which he talks about getting down on his knees at age 22, where he boils the evangelical version of the gospels down to a few lines. That’s what means “Christian” to him, and he doesn’t believe it to be true – he knows it to be true.
Now, how someone for whom that is the prism through which all the world is seen could POSSIBLY vote for Donald Trump for ANYTHING is beyond me, but it’s amazing what people will convince themselves is acceptable in the effort to achieve one’s personal utopia.
I just watched Graham blather and spew a bunch of mess without ever answering Matthews’ question.
I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist home. Graham’s notions wouldn’t pass muster there.
Okay, I just watched the video.
Sorry, but Lawrence did not land a knock out blow. I grew up in an Evangelical household, and I could see they were talking past each other. Any conservative Christians watching the video would come away thinking that Franklin Grahm mopped the floor with O’Donnell. This was not as effective as Cole and some others here would like to think.
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Graham is a conservative christian, a sort of fundamentalist. Obama is a liberal christian.
Joe Carter had some tedious posts about how Obama is not a “real” christian at First Things a while back.
Yes…but at the same time, I believe that partisans for Grahm would have exactly the same reaction for their guy after watching the same video.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Exactly.
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: I agree re: his definition of a “Christian” — it’s just that I find it facile given his statement that he “cannot” know if anyone else is Christian – this would seem to argue that he should take people at their word otherwise he is surrounded by non-believers. Hard to imagine that this is his reality. I guess the exclusionary nature of the “true” conservative Christian evangelicals just doesn’t compute with me. Probably not too different than the haredi – modern orthodox situation on some level.
Yes and the Trump/Birther nonsense coupled to his anti-Islam stance doesn’t do wonders for his overall credibility.
I was also raised evangelical.
What I saw was not even a discussion. It was two monologues that took place simultaneously. I didn’t see winners and losers because they did not engage.
Some Evangelical and Charismatic types do not care for mainstream liberal Protestant denominations…and some of them don’t like Catholics either. Some Catholics return the favor with feeling. You are over-simplifying the matter rather badly.
BTW, my opinion of Franklin Graham is not very high, but in this context I don’t think that is pertinent.
I’m 1:30 into the clip, and what I’m taking away from it so far is that O’Donnell’s delivery is unbearable.
@celticdragonchick: She always oversimplifies things. It is what she does.
I think O’Donnell missed the boat on this one. Why get into a pissing match over definitions of who is or is not a True Christian? The question he should have asked is why Graham wasn’t going around casting doubts on whether George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan was a True Christian, the way he’s doing with Obama. Surely he didn’t know what was in their hearts either, right?
Graham Cracker the lesser was just filibustering with evasive preacher-speak. “Aw shucks, I’m just a man o’gawd…blah blah blah”.
The whole thing was fairly tedious.
Larry spanked upon the Ditto King about Jesus too. Very good. Although, I get the impression that Larry assumes that when Limbaugh speaks of Jesus, he is speaking of the Biblical Jesus of Nazareth*. He isn’t. Limbaugh’s speaking of Jesus of Galt, the Ayn Christ. The messiah that disdains and mocks the poor and the sick and the weak. The Christ that worships the wealthy and the strong – the producers.
This would be a good video segment to consider posting, also, too.
*presumably the one Graham has some kind of relation with.
Kind of telling that on the holiest day of the year for Christians the fine Rev Graham was busy prattling on the Sunday morning galleys instead of tending to his flock. when lying to millions is more important then God that is very telling.
@TooManyJens: I think he was trying to do that when he mentioned the folks who attend his sermons — I agree with you, he should have asked the direct question.
Graham’s combover has a crush on Trump’s combover.
Ah, see? That’s where you start pissing people off. Don’t care if it’s the Hare Krishnas, Mormons, or Evangelicals.
My relationship between me and God/The Universe/Whatever is between me and God/The Universe/Whatever.
Don’t need a middle-man. Fuck off.
@Nethead Jay: I didn’t add it for a more fundamental reason: they don’t seem to have a podcast for it. Is that wrong?
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Christ. Now you’re stalking that entire blog? What the fuck is wrong with you? Nobody cares.
You don’t ‘mainstream’ something by introducing it to people through a medium that 99.99999999% of them will never become aware of. That’s leaving aside where the claim in question is probably just more of your delusional bullshit, which frankly I’m not going to even humor enough to double-check.
Anne laurie decided to zap my comment perhaps because I don’t believe her friend’s I got my nik from a comic nonsense.
That’s rich coming from someone who decided that the PIRATES were right.
And why are you still posting here?
By the end? He babbled mightily and incoherently right from the start. I wouldn’t want to be in any Heaven that would let that clown in.
Yep. me too. I was cringing.
Paul in KY
@Joe Beese: Man, I saw some other non-Obama-sucks comments from you and I thought ‘Wow, Joe is growing’.
Then, I see this…Well, you did say it was for your fans.
Paul in KY
@Uloborus: Hit them hard on all the stuff Jesus said about the Pharisees, because your modern right-wing holier-than-thou asswipe is a modern representation of a Pharisee.
They will soon see the analogy themselves & it pisses them off (because in their hearts they know it is true).
Paul in KY
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Sometimes they try & twist Jesus’ admonition to ‘render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s’ to mean that politics is the secular & thus you can vote for evil assholes who embody non-Christian sentiments, because that is Caesar’s bailiwick (secular politics).
It is a stupid theory & doesn’t hold up when you closely examine it, but they are tieing themselves in knots to justify voting for evil people (IMO).
Paul in KY
@junebug: What the Hell does: ‘Anne laurie decided to zap my comment perhaps because I don’t believe her friend’s I got my nik from a comic nonsense.’ mean?
Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
@celticdragonchick: [email protected]. Thank you.
@kdaug: Yes but you can’t take this guy Jesus at face value because, you know, he wasn’t a Christian. Much better to listen to your local televangelist.
I think O’Donnell missed even a more devastating response.
When Graham was going on about not believing someone was a Christian when they said they were a Christian, O’Donnell could have said, “You say you’re a Christian, but I don’t know what’s in your heart. You could be a false prophet.”
He also let Graham dance around the “give up everything you have” line. He also let Graham proselytize for way too long. But at least he didn’t let the so-called “religious” leaders completely off the hook, like most in the so-called liberal media do.