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You are here: Home / Economics / Free Markets Solve Everything / Deutschland Uber…if not Alles, Then Us

Deutschland Uber…if not Alles, Then Us

by Tom Levenson|  June 7, 201110:12 pm| 82 Comments

This post is in: Free Markets Solve Everything, Decline and Fall, Our Failed Political Establishment

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David Leonhardt is sounding mighty shrill these days:

After performing worse than the American economy for years, the Germany economy has grown faster since the middle of last decade. (It did better than our economy before the crisis and has endured the crisis about equally). Just as important, most Germans have fared much better than most Americans, because the bounty of their growth has not been concentrated among a small slice of the affluent…

…Unlike what happened here, German laws and regulators have also prevented the decimation of their labor unions. The clout of German unions, at individual companies and in the political system, is one reason the middle class there has fared decently in recent decades. In fact, middle-class pay has risen at roughly the same rate as top incomes.

The top 1 percent of German households earns about 11 percent of all income, virtually unchanged relative to 1970, according to recent estimates. In the United States, the top 1 percent makes more than 20 percent of all income, up from 9 percent in 1970. That’s right: only 40 years ago, Germany was more unequal than this country.

Read the whole piece. Leonhardt points to German benefit reforms that he thinks we should pay attention to, and to the role of government in creating the conditions for economic and social success.

How about the United States?  Well, Leonhardt tries to paint a optimistic picture at the end of his column, but this penultimate thought kind of dashes any foolish hopes:

And us? Well, lobbyists for the mortgage bankers and the N.A.A.C.P. have recently started pushing for less stringent standards for down payments. Wall Street is trying to water down other financial regulation, too.

Some Democrats say Social Security and Medicare must remain unchanged. Most Republicans refuse to consider returning tax rates even to their 1990s levels. Republican leaders also want to make deep cuts in the sort of antipoverty programs that have helped Germany withstand the recession even in the absence of big new stimulus legislation.

Some days, it seems like the only thing to do is stock up on canned goods.  But I’ve got a kid, and I just can’t quite bring myself to abandon all hope. This bit of Leonhardt’s message does stick:  if the Germans can do it, we can’t be wholly without a chance.

Right?

Image:  Rembrandt van Rijn, The Sampling Officials, 1662.

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Reader Interactions

82Comments

  1. 1.

    Svensker

    June 7, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    No German painters?

  2. 2.

    Snayke

    June 7, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    I’ve run out of snarky comments to describe how awful our policies are. Something, something Job Creators.

    There.

  3. 3.

    Xecky Gilchrist

    June 7, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    The Times printed that? Can they do that?

  4. 4.

    OzoneR

    June 7, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    Sure, just give us 12 years of a mass murdering fascist dictator, a war that decimates the whole country, a few years of foreign occupation and we’re all set.

    Germany’s ideas are nice and all, but reading this, all I see are my fellow Americans putting down the article after the first utterance of “unions.” This is the antithesis to the American “pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop looking at me to take of you” attitude. The American ideals of “don’t give that homeless girl a nickel, he’s probably a drug addict” and “Bob’s uncle’s neighbor’s cousin’s girlfriend’s brother is on unemployment and isn’t looking for a job, therefore we should stop wasting our tax money on unemployment, because it would force Bob’s uncle’s neighbor’s cousin’s girlfriend’s brother to get a job, and the other 15 million people too, as well”

    What we need in this country is a god old ass kicking. If we are like Germany in 1945, realizing we’ve been too badly decimated to “pull ourselves up by our bootstraps” maybe that’ll change the mentality of Americans.

    ETA: but more likely that would just cause us to turn on each other in an ugly civil war.

  5. 5.

    jwb

    June 7, 2011 at 10:25 pm

    @Xecky Gilchrist: The guy won a Pulitzer, so, like Krugman, the Times is now stuck with him.

  6. 6.

    cat48

    June 7, 2011 at 10:26 pm

    I noticed there was a “David Leonhardt” on the State Dinner list tonite. Wonder if it was this David? There’s more than one when googled.

    Maybe the prez could kidnap him & let Dave stay at the WH for a while since Austan is leaving. The Commerce Secy he nominated last week is already blocked by Inhofe b/c he supported the Cap & Trade Bill that did not become law. He actually buys that global warming crap. Inhofe is appalled!

  7. 7.

    OzoneR

    June 7, 2011 at 10:28 pm

    @cat48:

    The Commerce Secy he nominated last week is already blocked by Inhofe b/c he supported the Cap & Trade Bill that did not become law. He actually buys that global warming crap. Inhofe is appalled!

    Well certainly the good people of Oklahoma will rain fire on Inhofe for doing such a thing.

    No?

  8. 8.

    Tom Levenson

    June 7, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    @Svensker: I looked at a couple, but just liked this one…always have.

  9. 9.

    Bill Murray

    June 7, 2011 at 10:34 pm

    @Svensker: Really some August Macke (perhaps Farewell) or maybe Franz Marc (piggies) would have worked nicely. But then I like expressionism

  10. 10.

    cat48

    June 7, 2011 at 10:36 pm

    @OzoneR:

    I’m always grateful I’m not a gun owner. Some days, I feel like I could actually use one on the Senate. Not a good thought.

  11. 11.

    cleek

    June 7, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    @OzoneR:

    What we need in this country is a god old ass kicking.

    count me out. i have no interest in creative destruction.

  12. 12.

    Cliff in NH

    June 7, 2011 at 10:42 pm

    Lovely email from FreeDumbWorks today:

    FreedomWorks
    __
    Dear xxxxxxxxx,
    __
    There is an effort underway to revisit costly price controls that Congress pushed through last year that threaten the everyday convenience of debit cards.
    __
    TAKE ACTION!
    __
    Unless the law is changed, new Federal Reserve regulations will impose price controls on “interchange fees,” the price retailers pay for the ability to use debit cards. These price controls are yet another example of unnecessary government intervention that will likely result in higher fees and new restrictions on debit cards to include the end of banks issuing free debit cards and debit card reward programs.
    __
    Government bureaucrats should never be in the business of trying to set prices. The market should be allowed to operate free from government intervention in setting interchange fees.
    __
    Contact your legislators today and urge them to take a stand against these interchange fee price controls on debit cards. Tell them that these burdensome regulations ultimately hurt consumers who use debit cards and regularly rely on them to make everyday transactions.

    Cause More Fees, mean More FeeDumb!

  13. 13.

    robertdsc-PowerBook

    June 7, 2011 at 10:46 pm

    Diagnoses like these don’t matter much to me any more. What matters more is how we can get more Democrats elected to change the policies that need to be changed.

  14. 14.

    Lesley

    June 7, 2011 at 10:46 pm

    Time to learn German and move! To Germany.

  15. 15.

    Suffern ACE

    June 7, 2011 at 10:47 pm

    @cat48: I’m assuming at some point in the near future, the cabinet is going to be made up of acting secretaries.

  16. 16.

    Lesley

    June 7, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    P.S. Since the end of WWII Germany has not been a war economy. Ditto for Japan. This has been beneficial to both.

  17. 17.

    Kyle

    June 7, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    @jwb:

    The guy won a Pulitzer

    On hearing this, Richard Shelby (R-HeeHaw) declared Leonhardt was “unqualified to write newspaper articles” and “I could rite betterer mahself.”

  18. 18.

    Cliff in NH

    June 7, 2011 at 10:55 pm

    @Cliff in NH:

    SEC. 1075. REASONABLE FEES AND RULES FOR PAYMENT CARD TRANSACTIONS.
    (a) IN GENERAL.—The Electronic Fund Transfer Act (15 U.S.C.
    1693 et seq.) is amended—
    (1) by redesignating sections 920 and 921 as sections 921
    and 922, respectively; and
    (2) by inserting after section 919 the following:
    ‘‘SEC. 920. REASONABLE FEES AND RULES FOR PAYMENT CARD TRANSACTIONS.

    blah blah, starts on page 694 of this
    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ203/pdf/PLAW-111publ203.pdf

  19. 19.

    Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal

    June 7, 2011 at 10:57 pm

    it wouldn’t work that way, america would never 100% renounce its previous fascist regime, and there would be a host of people who would apologize for the loyalists, america might move on and rebuild, but the fascism would simply be another group of true believers, who only see the good in their legacy, like confederates.

  20. 20.

    jl

    June 7, 2011 at 10:57 pm

    @Tom Levenson:

    For those who want German pics, there are some that might have lessons for us here in today’s USA:

    Georg Grosz
    http://www.abcgallery.com/G/grosz/grosz26.html

    Otto Dix
    http://www.ottodix.org/index/catalog-item/129.002.html

  21. 21.

    Cliff in NH

    June 7, 2011 at 10:57 pm

    @Cliff in NH:

    This is the Key text:

    ‘‘SEC. 920. REASONABLE FEES AND RULES FOR PAYMENT CARD TRANSACTIONS.
    ‘‘(a) REASONABLE INTERCHANGE TRANSACTION FEES FOR ELECTRONIC
    DEBIT TRANSACTIONS.—
    ‘‘(1) REGULATORY AUTHORITY OVER INTERCHANGE TRANSACTION
    FEES.—The Board may prescribe regulations, pursuant
    to section 553 of title 5, United States Code, regarding any
    interchange transaction fee that an issuer may receive or charge
    with respect to an electronic debit transaction, to implement
    this subsection (including related definitions), and to prevent
    circumvention or evasion of this subsection.
    ‘‘(2) REASONABLE INTERCHANGE TRANSACTION FEES.—The
    amount of any interchange transaction fee that an issuer may
    receive or charge with respect to an electronic debit transaction
    shall be reasonable and proportional to the cost incurred by
    the issuer with respect to the transaction.

  22. 22.

    Davis X. Machina

    June 7, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    Oh, sure, their economy is doing better, and more people have jobs, but what about their Freedom™, huh? Huh?

    (Freedom™ is a registered trademark of the Republican National Committee. Used with permission, all rights reserved.)

  23. 23.

    cat48

    June 7, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    @Suffern ACE:

    I was wondering how many “special assistant to the President” he can hire? That’s what he did w/Warren to get around them. Of course, Fox would call them all Czars.

  24. 24.

    Cliff in NH

    June 7, 2011 at 11:01 pm

    @Cliff in NH:

    See the Lie?

    These price controls are yet another example of unnecessary government intervention that will likely result in higher fees and new restrictions on debit cards to include the end of banks issuing free debit cards and debit card reward programs.

  25. 25.

    kdaug

    June 7, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    In Germany, unions have a seat at the table. The Big Table – the board. By law. It’s called Mitbestimmungsgesetz, or Co-Determination.

  26. 26.

    OzoneR

    June 7, 2011 at 11:05 pm

    @Cliff in NH: the fact that they feel confident actually emailing that to people shows how stupid this fucking country is.

  27. 27.

    jl

    June 7, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    I forgot about Beckmann Max!

    http://www.nationalgalleries.org/index.php/collection/online_az/4:322/results/0/15360

    Edit: boo hoo. Cant make the Beckmann Max link work. It is the page of Max Beckmann’s print series ‘Hell’ at the national galleries of Scotland.

  28. 28.

    El Cid

    June 7, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    Krugman (per Wolff) points out why there’s this hysteria about the dangers of inflation which doesn’t exist and has been way way down but which will soon kill us all.

    Financial securities are overwhelmingly held by the rich — more than 60 percent by just one percent of the population, more than 98 percent by the top 10 percent.
    __
    It’s true that middle-class Americans own significant shares of deposits, and that some part of their pension accounts would be in bonds. On the other hand, middle-class Americans owe the lion’s share of debt; relatively speaking, the wealthy have hardly any.

    The piece links to the newest research by Edward Wolff on the funny, crazy, wacky distribution of income and wealth in this country which approaches ever more closely to the best in the Universe, in which everything is in the hands of a tiny super minority and the vast majority hold their wealth via investments in bleak stares.

    It’s also a complete coincidence that focusing on paying off deficits much more rapidly may help make billionaire anti-irresponsible spending hero Pete Peterson richer via getting more for his investments in our commie Chinese-owned pyramid scheme Treasury bonds and such.

  29. 29.

    Xenos

    June 7, 2011 at 11:14 pm

    If you google the board of directors at major German manufacturers you can check out the names and cv.s of the union board members. You often find these guys on the audit committees or other critical roles in the board, so when the company is negotiating with the union there is already tremendous transparency. The books are open to the union.

    When companies need to cut back on union wages or benefits as part of a larger austerity for the health of the company, they do not have problems with the union. Presumably there are no corporate insiders sweeping up all the cash while telling workers that they need to cut back.

  30. 30.

    Cliff in NH

    June 7, 2011 at 11:16 pm

    @OzoneR:

    I’m so Angry that Molly just Firmly stuck her head in my lap (I’ve been silently fuming, Yes, she Is that good) and told me to Stop reading this slop.

    So I’m out for a few hours at least.

    Good Doggie!

    http://mollymaesden.blogspot.com/2011/06/molly.html

  31. 31.

    Martin

    June 7, 2011 at 11:26 pm

    You know who else thought Germany was better than America?

  32. 32.

    Ken

    June 7, 2011 at 11:37 pm

    That is so European of Germany.

  33. 33.

    Sly

    June 7, 2011 at 11:38 pm

    In fairness, Germany has simply been exporting its misery to the rest of the Eurozone via policy at the ECB. They’re the region’s principle creditor, and they’ll put the whole of Europe into an austerity death spiral before they allow for the slightest hint of inflation.

  34. 34.

    Xenos

    June 7, 2011 at 11:45 pm

    @Sly: Then they are going to get flat-out default for their troubles. The more likely scenario is that the political deadlock extends out for enough years until the Deutschebank executives are past the statute of limitations for the claw-backs on their bonuses. Just like what we are seeing in Washington. Extend-and-pretend makes no sense unless you keep in mind the slowly ticking clocks for the insiders at the surviving banks.

  35. 35.

    Mike in NC

    June 7, 2011 at 11:51 pm

    Deutschland Uber…Roger Ailes?

  36. 36.

    gene108

    June 7, 2011 at 11:53 pm

    @Xenos:

    If you google the board of directors at major German manufacturers you can check out the names and cv.s of the union board members. You often find these guys on the audit committees or other critical roles in the board, so when the company is negotiating with the union there is already tremendous transparency. The books are open to the union.

    When companies need to cut back on union wages or benefits as part of a larger austerity for the health of the company, they do not have problems with the union. Presumably there are no corporate insiders sweeping up all the cash while telling workers that they need to cut back.

    That’s UNAMERICAN!

  37. 37.

    danimal

    June 8, 2011 at 12:02 am

    Help me, I’m confused. Is Germany part of the good Europe that brings us austerity and xenophobia or is Germany part of the bad Europe full of soshalized medicine and excessive regulation? I can’t keep it all straight–are we supposed to emulate Europe or sneer at it with condescension. Mitt, where are you when I need you?

  38. 38.

    gene108

    June 8, 2011 at 12:04 am

    You know what’s a piece of cognitive dissonance by right-wingers: most of them don’t really like big corporations, when push comes to shove, yet they support politicians who have decided to increase the power of big corporations over the rest of us.

    For example, I was reading one conservative commentator on another blog, celebrate the Florida couple, who forelosed on a local BoA branch, when BoA mistakenly tried foreclosing on their house, which had no mortgage and lost in court, when they tried to enforce the foreclosure and had to pay damages to the couple.

    The right-wingers really like the fact someone stuck it to BoA, who they view as a bad bank because of the fees and lack of service.

    And yet, as I stated above, they blindly support Republicans, who would make it easier for BoA to gouge consumers.

    I have no idea, why these folks seem to be immune to facts.

    Maybe it’s cultural and they don’t identify with New Englanders (Barney Frank, John Kerry), west coast types (Pelosi, Wyden), Northeasteners (Kucinich, Sherrod Brown, etc.), because they don’t have the right type of Midwestern twang or Southern drawl, which they consider to be part of their cultural identity.

    Shelby, would tell people in Alabama how great “freedom” is, even those guys hate BoA and then vote to allow BoA to charge more fees, but because he talks like them, versus say Sherrod Brown, who they figure sounds shrill, they’ll believe Shelby, despite the facts.

  39. 39.

    El Cid

    June 8, 2011 at 12:27 am

    @danimal: There’s also Old Europe which didn’t understand that Saddam Hussein was going to kill us all with a nuclear bin Laden fueled by yellowcake Scuds and so didn’t back our Freedom Invasion. For a good while Germany was mostly Old Europe. Apparently it got better.

  40. 40.

    slag

    June 8, 2011 at 12:30 am

    @jl: Thanks for those! Good choices.

  41. 41.

    Cliff in NH

    June 8, 2011 at 12:30 am

    @danimal:

    Help me, I’m confused. Is Germany part of the good Europe that brings us austerity and xenophobia or is Germany part of the bad Europe full of soshalized medicine and excessive regulation?

    Maybe this excellent Publicly funded documentary will help clear it up.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/synopsis.html

    Reid’s journey then takes him to Germany, the country that invented the concept of a national health care system. For its 80 million people, Germany offers universal health care, including medical, dental, mental health, homeopathy and spa treatment. Professor Karl Lauterbach, a member of the German parliament, describes it as “a system where the rich pay for the poor and where the ill are covered by the healthy.” As they do in Japan, medical providers must charge standard prices. This keeps costs down, but it also means physicians in Germany earn between half and two-thirds as much as their U.S. counterparts.

  42. 42.

    MikeJ

    June 8, 2011 at 12:30 am

    @El Cid: 45 minutes away in a remote controlled plane!!

  43. 43.

    Cliff in NH

    June 8, 2011 at 12:33 am

    @gene108:

    Dunno where this goes in the argument, But It’s a fantastic sign of sanity to me.

    ……………………

    http://rdlxweb.co.guilford.nc.us/newsletter/201106/ROBOPress2.pdf

    ..snip..
    Register O’Brien is completing an internal investigation into
    robo-signed documents and
    expects to release a full report on the number of robo-signed
    documents recorded in his
    office shortly. In May, Register of Deeds Jeff Thigpen in Greensboro,
    NC sent state and
    federal regulators over 4,500 robo-signed documents submitted by DocX.
    DocX is owned by
    Lender Processing Services which is used by Wells Fargo, Bank of
    America, and MERS
    amongst others. Those documents included 1,947 signed by Linda Green
    with 15 different
    signature variations and 373 documents signed by Korell Harp with 4
    signature variations.
    Thigpen joins O’Brien’s effort saying “The basic question here is
    whether we as Recorders
    are going to sit on our hands, in the face of what appears to be clear
    fraud or are we going to
    stand up for 400 years of integrity in land records? John is on the
    right side of this question
    and these are reasonable actions that he is taking.”
    Register O’Brien said, “knowing what I now know, it would be a
    dereliction of my duties as
    the keeper of the records to record these documents and any other
    documents that contain
    questionable signatures. To do so, would make me a willing participant
    in a continuing
    scheme which has corrupted the chain of title of thousands of Essex
    County property owners.
    I have decided to put a stop to this reckless behavior and hold these
    lenders and their agents
    accountable for the authenticity of what they are attempting to record
    in my Registry. I do
    not believe this to be unreasonable.”

    ..snip..

  44. 44.

    Calouste

    June 8, 2011 at 1:01 am

    @Cliff in NH:

    it also means physicians in Germany earn between half and two-thirds as much as their U.S. counterparts.

    Physicians in Germany don’t leave university with $100,000’s in student debt. And in any case, doctors in Europe are pretty well off. Maybe they only afford one Merc instead of two Lexusses like their American counterparts, but there are very few people in Europe who think doctors are underpaid for what they do.

  45. 45.

    GregB

    June 8, 2011 at 1:05 am

    Our forefathers didn’t go to war so that Germany could have universal health care and a better economy.

    -Rick Santorum

  46. 46.

    James E. Powell

    June 8, 2011 at 1:41 am

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:

    it wouldn’t work that way, america would never 100% renounce its previous fascist regime

    Exactly. Ronald Reagan would have given a speech declaring that the previous fascists served a ‘noble cause.’ The Texas State Board of Education would be requiring high school history books that reflect that view. No one running for office could ever bring up what a horrible idea fascism was, or suggest that maybe we should avoid doing it again.

  47. 47.

    James E. Powell

    June 8, 2011 at 2:11 am

    @Calouste:

    Physicians in Germany don’t leave university with $100,000’s in student debt.

    That’s an easy problem to take care of in a national health care system. You identify areas where the need for physicians is great. New doctors who locate there get their loans paid by the USGov.

  48. 48.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 8, 2011 at 2:15 am

    One of the reasons why Germany is doing well is that over the past 10 years it’s been coming out of the shadow of the absorption of the DDR, starting in 1990, which they knew would put them into a period of slower growth for about a decade.

    This was a major drag on the overall economy as they sought to bring the former DDR up to speed with the BRD’s economic standards.

    So Germany “looked sluggish” because it was burdened for around a decade with cleaning up after the Cold War in a very profound way.

    Also, as noted in a comment above, Germany doesn’t have a perpetual war economy to sustain like the US does with its global network of bases and conflicts and otherwise butting into everyone else’s business.

  49. 49.

    Calouste

    June 8, 2011 at 2:38 am

    @James E. Powell:

    The Texas State Board of Education would be requiring high school history books that reflect that view.

    I think we can kind of guess what Texas State Board of Education approved high school history books have to say about the Confederacy, am I right?

  50. 50.

    Cliff in NH

    June 8, 2011 at 3:23 am

    @Calouste:

    I’d forgotten they actually voted for that.

  51. 51.

    greenergood

    June 8, 2011 at 5:58 am

    Also, too: 60% of Germans rent their homes, and there’s no stigma about not being a homeowner. And mortgage candidates are very seriously scrutinized, as are the mortgage lenders.

  52. 52.

    gene108

    June 8, 2011 at 6:00 am

    @James E. Powell:

    No one running for office could ever bring up what a horrible idea fascism was, or suggest that maybe we should avoid doing it again.

    Don’t forget several state capitols would fly the fascist flag on their state capitol buildings, as a way to preserve their heritage.

  53. 53.

    Xenos

    June 8, 2011 at 6:35 am

    @greenergood: I live in Luxembourg, land of easy money and high real estate prices. A house costing 400,000 Euros in Germany fetches at least twice that just over the border. There was never a significant run-up in the German real estate market.

  54. 54.

    jayackroyd

    June 8, 2011 at 7:47 am

    A twitterer calls attention to this graf of Leonhardt’s

    But the Social Security disability program, which is one reason nearly 20 percent of working-age American men are not working, would benefit from some German-like reforms. So would those public sector pensions that encourage people to retire at 55 or 60.

    That might make you think 20 percent of the male work force is on SS disability. This is not so. 60 million in the workforce (http://bit.ly/khczyw) 4 million on disability (http://1.usa.gov/jeDlVK)

  55. 55.

    jayackroyd

    June 8, 2011 at 7:49 am

    @James E. Powell:

    We do that now. My brother spent his first few years in practice in an underserved area in Philadelphia, in return for loan payments.

  56. 56.

    Chris

    June 8, 2011 at 8:00 am

    @OzoneR:

    What we need in this country is a god old ass kicking. If we are like Germany in 1945, realizing we’ve been too badly decimated to “pull ourselves up by our bootstraps” maybe that’ll change the mentality of Americans.

    That’s more or less what happened in the Great Depression, with so many Americans poor or jobless or knowing people who were poor and jobless that it finally occurred to them that no, those people really aren’t that way because of laziness or evilness or curses from God.

    Like you said, though, it’s as likely to bring about a hyper-nationalist revival.

  57. 57.

    Chris

    June 8, 2011 at 8:08 am

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:

    it wouldn’t work that way, america would never 100% renounce its previous fascist regime, and there would be a host of people who would apologize for the loyalists, america might move on and rebuild, but the fascism would simply be another group of true believers, who only see the good in their legacy, like confederates.

    Sadly, yes.

    I’ve always been fascinated to know what it is that made the German people go through such a total and sincere repentance and repudiation for the Nazis. Most other countries when faced with their past crimes have a huge population going “oh come on that was so long ago,” or “it’s divisive and mean and it perpetuates the conflict when you bring it up,” or “you know, that regime did good things too,” or “you’re not being fair because the alternative was even worse,” or “you know the victims weren’t totally innocent either,” or… you know the drill.

    And yeah, I realize the magnitude of the Nazis’ crimes, but as activists of both left and right keep reminding us, it’s hardly the only time in history that crimes of that magnitude were committed. For some reason, the Germans, pretty universally, have been able to confront and repent for their past. I’d like to know what it is that made that happen, and how to repeat it elsewhere.

  58. 58.

    arguingwithsignposts

    June 8, 2011 at 8:12 am

    @Chris: Perhaps one thing is their geographic location? The fact that, by the end, a significant majority of the german people were suffering so much that it caused their remorese, also too?

  59. 59.

    Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937

    June 8, 2011 at 8:20 am

    @jayackroyd: I was going to comment on that sentence. I found it hard to believe especially with no attribution. I’m sick of people desiring a ‘serious’ discussion then distorting reality and making stuff up.

  60. 60.

    OzoneR

    June 8, 2011 at 8:26 am

    @Chris:

    I’ve always been fascinated to know what it is that made the German people go through such a total and sincere repentance and repudiation for the Nazis.

    Dresden.

  61. 61.

    Marc

    June 8, 2011 at 8:48 am

    Germany has a social system that looks an awful lot like the French or Scandinavian systems. I don’t think that the Nazi legacy per se is responsible – except for discrediting their right wing decisively.

  62. 62.

    Dino

    June 8, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Aren’t those the “Dutch Masters” cigar makers?

  63. 63.

    Chris

    June 8, 2011 at 9:19 am

    @OzoneR:

    Desden might be it, but if memory serves, we did similar trials in Japan, and from what I’ve been told, there isn’t nearly the same degree of regret and guilt over there.

    @Marc:

    I don’t think that the Nazi legacy per se is responsible – except for discrediting their right wing decisively.

    Well it wasn’t just “their” right wing, the Nazi legacy discredited the right wing all over the continent. That’s because collaborationist regimes like Vichy were largely founded in the hard right of their respective countries. Kind of hard to claim that you represent patriotism and “real” France (or wherever) when you turn out to’ve been the biggest traitors since the guy who burned Joan of Arc.

    (IMO, that’s also a major factor in why far right parties like the Front National are held in such broad contempt, even by people who might share their prejudices and their fears).

  64. 64.

    MarkJ

    June 8, 2011 at 9:25 am

    @Lesley: Exactly. My ancestors came to America from Sweden and Germany for a better life when those regions were poverty wracked. If things get much worse in the US I’m thinking of asking them to return the favor and take me back.

  65. 65.

    Xenos

    June 8, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Per Wikipedia, the German health care system (essentially ‘medicaid’ for all, with a highly regulated private system for supplemental insurance) was instituted by that notorious leftist, Otto von Bismark.

    Cost controls have been central to the system since the seventies – imagine the AMA allowing this:

    The steep rise in health expenditures in the first half of the 1970s prompted the passage of the Health Insurance Cost Containment Act of 1977. The law established an advisory board, the Concerted Action in Health Care, to suggest nonbinding guidelines for health care costs. Chaired by the federal minister for health, its sixty members represent the most important interest groups having a stake in health care. The board has contributed to slowing the growth of health care costs, but further legislation has been necessary.

    The communist government that put this death panel in place was run by notorious leftist Helmut Schmidt. Ok, he was a social democrat, so we can call this a death panel, right? We can gloss over the conservatives in his cabinet as a part of his coalition government, right?

  66. 66.

    DZ

    June 8, 2011 at 9:59 am

    @Xenos:

    Exactly, Bismarck set up the social insurance system in the 1880s. His was not a humanitarian impulse, but something based on analysis of the causes of social unrest. His plan worked – imperial Germany was peaceful and stable until 1914.

    BTW, Germany was no more responsible for the outbreak of WWI than France and Russia. My specialty many years ago in college.

  67. 67.

    Stefan

    June 8, 2011 at 10:42 am

    Reid’s journey then takes him to Germany, the country that invented the concept of a national health care system. For its 80 million people, Germany offers universal health care, including medical, dental, mental health, homeopathy and spa treatment. Professor Karl Lauterbach, a member of the German parliament, describes it as “a system where the rich pay for the poor and where the ill are covered by the healthy.”

    Dear god, that’s un-Christian!

  68. 68.

    Stefan

    June 8, 2011 at 10:46 am

    Also, too: 60% of Germans rent their homes, and there’s no stigma about not being a homeowner.

    The types of homes available for rental in Germany are also far superior to the average rental base in the US. In America many, many people (outside of major metropolitan areas like NY, LA, etc.) have to buy homes because there’s simply no comparable type residence to rent. But in Germany, people can rent fully-equipped houses in great neighborhoods with lawns, etc. in a way that’s simply not possible in the US. The lease protections for renters are also much stronger.

  69. 69.

    daveNYC

    June 8, 2011 at 10:46 am

    @Chris:

    Desden might be it, but if memory serves, we did similar trials in Japan, and from what I’ve been told, there isn’t nearly the same degree of regret and guilt over there.

    You’re confusing ‘trial’ with ‘firebombing’.

  70. 70.

    arguingwithsignposts

    June 8, 2011 at 10:48 am

    @Chris:

    Desden might be it, but if memory serves, we did similar trials in Japan, and from what I’ve been told, there isn’t nearly the same degree of regret and guilt over there.

    Which was my point about geography. Japan is an island nation. Germany is surrounded by the people they pissed all over.

  71. 71.

    arguingwithsignposts

    June 8, 2011 at 10:48 am

    @daveNYC: We did firebomb Tokyo, and there were a couple of other bombs we dropped there as well, if memory serves. Big bombs.

  72. 72.

    Stefan

    June 8, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Germany has a social system that looks an awful lot like the French or Scandinavian systems. I don’t think that the Nazi legacy per se is responsible – except for discrediting their right wing decisively.

    Germany, as Leonhardt points out, was actually the father of the modern state welfare system, with many of the first major reforms being introduced during the Bismarck/Wilhelmine Second Reich.

  73. 73.

    Stefan

    June 8, 2011 at 10:58 am

    Which was my point about geography. Japan is an island nation. Germany is surrounded by the people they pissed all over.

    Hmmm…interesting. I’ve never thought about that before as a factor, but of course it’s true. And Germany isn’t merely surrounded by those other countries, it’s a major crossroads and thoroughfare for most of Europe.

  74. 74.

    Glen Tomkins

    June 8, 2011 at 11:00 am

    @Svensker: Don’t be anachronistic.

    There was no “Germany” in Rembrandt’s time as a political unit. Insofar as political units are relevant, I don’t see that it was particularly more or less likely in Rembrandt’s time that what is now the Netherlands would have wound up in or out of some future homeland of Germanic-speaking peoples than all sorts of other places where Germanic languages were spoken that are now in or out of the Germany that did eventually emerge.

    And culturally… well, at that time who was more Deutsch than the Dutch? Is High German more authentically German than Low German? It might seem so today, but would it have in Rembrandt’s day?

  75. 75.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    June 8, 2011 at 11:00 am

    But Dey won’t allow Germans to own guns, so they don’y haf feedumb and dey have alot of welfare. plus dey allow all dose illegals from Turkey to sponge off so we Americans can’t allow dat, besides we need to keep dose bases derr so we can keep an eye on them, we kicked dere asses in ’18 and we kicked dere asses in ’45, Me tinks we need to do it again to there uppity asses. GOD COUNTRY AND SARAH PALIN IN 2012 WAAAAAAAAHOOOOO!!!!
    (Ohy and dem Turks look Mexican except they worship Allah)
    (Snark advisory)

  76. 76.

    Stefan

    June 8, 2011 at 11:04 am

    And yeah, I realize the magnitude of the Nazis’ crimes, but as activists of both left and right keep reminding us, it’s hardly the only time in history that crimes of that magnitude were committed. For some reason, the Germans, pretty universally, have been able to confront and repent for their past.

    Which is why I always find it so annoying when I hear “world domination” jokes about Germans. In the Western world for the last 60 plus years, there’s only been one country that’s engaged in an active empire-building program of worldwide military and economic domination, that routinely attacks, invades and occupies other countries, and that tortures prisoners.

    First hint: that country’s main language is English, not German. Second hint: it ain’t Canada.

  77. 77.

    arguingwithsignposts

    June 8, 2011 at 11:09 am

    @Stefan: Is it England? ;)

  78. 78.

    Stefan

    June 8, 2011 at 11:10 am

    Ooooh! So close! No, it’s New Zealand.

  79. 79.

    _PK_

    June 8, 2011 at 11:42 am

    I’d be interested in the data from 1980 on. I thought the 70’s were actually pretty good for the middle class. A 1980 start point allows for a cleaner evaluation of conservative policies.

  80. 80.

    negative 1

    June 8, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    The reason to get depressed about this is the difference in attitude about labor between the countries. In Germany, unions get a seat on the board because people believe that a company is at least partially comprised of its workers. Would anyone describe that as being true in this country? Our attitude seems to be “you’re lucky to have a job, now kneel down and kiss the glorious producer’s a**”.

  81. 81.

    Steaming Pile

    June 8, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Gotteswillen! America wird Scheisse, und die Idioten und Verrueckten fueheren alles. I kann gut Deutsch, und meine Vorfaeter waren auch Deutscher. Kann ich meine Deutsche Pass haben?

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