I know that I’ve been even more than usually AWOL around here lately — and that’s not going to change very much for the next while, given the awesome comprehensiveness of the ass-kicking my day job is giving me these days. It’s hard, really, because the more or less total collapse of the GOP primary field is turning some of my favorite media star-hacks into clattering, gibbering, addled parodies of what were pretty much cartoons to begin with. What we might call a target-rich environment. (A singularly poor choice of image, as you will read in a moment.)
But there you go. Astonishingly, those who pay me daily expect me to respond daily. The nerve!
And thus it is that I drop in just to offer up this, which isn’t funny at all.
ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. – Authorities say the daughter of a pastor was accidentally shot in the head at a church in St. Petersburg.
The Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office was called to the Grace Connection Church Sunday at about 12:24 p.m. Sunday.
Investigators say Moises Zambrana was showing his gun in a small closet to another church member – the victim’s boyfriend, according to CBS affiliate WTSP – who was interested in buying a firearm. Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Reuger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber. …
The gun went off and fired through a wall, striking 20-year-old Hannah Kelley. She was transported to Bayfront Medical Center to undergo surgery and remained in critical condition late Sunday.
“There is a big level of concern ’cause she may or may not survive. But we’re all praying for her and, right now, I guess that’s the best we can do,” church member Tony Diehl told WTSP.
Deputies said Zambrana has a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
No charges have been filed. [CBS/AP via th]
Y’all may recall that I’m no fan of guns — I think a gun is a damn stupid thing to have around the house, and I especially disdain the notion that a more heavily armed society is safer than one less well strapped…
….Still, I wouldn’t say that no one should have a gun.
I’ve shot at targets before and enjoyed it, and I come from a couple of generations of career gunners in the Royal Artillery, so it would be hypocritical (as well as insufficiently filial) to suggest otherwise.
But I do think we are lax in the demand of absolute responsibility of those who choose to own guns. I’m a strict liability kind of guy in this area. If you decide to own a gun, you own all of it. It’s your job to secure it — if someone steals it and uses it to cause harm, that’s at least in part your problem. You fail as utterly Mr. Zambrana did, you should have criminal and civil liability to deal with…and so on. A gun is a tool that is designed to apply deadly force at a distance. Owning such a tool should carry the most rigorous obligations with it. Anything less is disrespectful of the machine itself.
Your mileage may vary. Have at it (and me).
Image: Antonia de Pereda y Salgado, Allegory, c. 1654
Raven
That’s why mine are unloaded and the ammo is nowhere near the weapons.
Villago Delenda Est
“I didn’t know the gun was loaded”
This, right here, is a disqualifier from ever owning a firearm.
You check EVERY SINGLE TIME you take the firearm out of storage, check the chamber, make sure it’s empty.
EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Elementary firearm safety.
The cretinous stupid. IT KILLS.
WereBear
I can agree to that.
My husband comes from a rugged rural culture; shooting a deer in the fall meant they ate all winter. I don’t have a problem with that. And the gun safety rules both his grandparents drilled into him is a thing of beauty.
If the NRA was to support nature, conservation, and strict gun safety; along with the recognition that a machine gun is not a sporting weapon, I think anyone sensible would gladly meet in this middle.
Even this “Bambi lover.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: All firearms are loaded. Even if you checked five minutes ago. It might have loaded itself. Always assume it is loaded and always clear the fucking chamber.
Kathy
I recognize that there are plenty of people who are responsible owners, however there must be some massive consequences if you are not. I was robbed at gun point while out for a walk with my two year old daughter and the one year old son of a friend. We were very lucky no one was hurt and all I lost was my wallet and wedding ring. I don’t know how the thug got his gun, but whoever supplied it whether they sold it to him or were careless about securing it bears responsibility as well.
Schlemizel
Jay-zuz, if BJ is short of money please just ask for donations. I’d rather send in $5 than to sit through the shit-storm this issue will cause. 8-{D
Schlemizel
@Kathy:
When our house was burgled they took my gun, all long guns. The police said guns were easy to fence so they are always taken. They said most of the hand guns end up on the street, cheap and disposable.
The NRA has created a perfect market. Spread fear to sell guns & then the easy access to guns makes owning a gun for protection more important, which makes more guns available for criminals which means its more important to own a gun for protection . . . rinse and repeat.
If you want a model for how a non-profit organization with a limited goal can be taken over for political and industrial ends skip SGK and study what happened to the NRA in the 70s.
RossInDetroit
When my apartment was burgled 20 years ago the first thing I looked for was my Ruger 9mm. Plenty else was stolen but the gun was still there. I locked it in the trunk of the car in case the robbers came back. They did. I sold it immediately and haven’t owned a gun since.
If my gun had been used in a crime I would have considered myself partially responsible.
Ben Cisco
Sometimes when you do something dumb, you don’t always DIRECTLY feel the consequences. I’m guessing he’s rethinking his positions today.
__
Also, a gun in church? Seriously?
RossInDetroit
Just before this post went up I was thinking over the gun deaths in my extended family. Three in 5 years. Two suicides and one stupid accident. At least one of those lives was needlessly lost. And that’s just people I know.
I come from a long line of hunters and guns in my family outnumber people at least 3:1. But you’d need a plasma cutter to get your hands on them and that’s the way it should be.
joes527
No argument here.
My son thinks I’m nuts when I insist (on threat of losing it) that he treat his airsoft gun as being loaded even when “he knows” it isn’t. We aren’t gunny people, so airsoft is probably the closest we will get to the real thing, but to avoid putting an eye out, the same rules apply.
but ..
Something tells me that there is more to this story
Decided Fence Sitter
I’m a strong gun ownership advocate, and I’d be mostly okay with a strict liability law. Mostly okay being is that my last law for non-lawyers class that involved strict liability was a wile ago, and I’m not sure how it works in cases of theft where all reasonable precautions were taken, the crime reported, etc.
But then again, even in a strictest of liability world, I’d still plan on owning mine, because it isn’t a home invasion I’m concerned about.
Raven
@Schlemizel: You catch my note about “Stolen Valor”? Try “Patriots” by Chris Appy.
FlyingToaster
I’ve always wondered why gun ownership wasn’t like car ownership. I’m required by the Commonwealth to carry insurance on my car, but gun-owners aren’t required to carry commensurate insurance on their weapons. And they really, really ought to be.
Of course, I live in a local-option area, where you have to convince the police department that a) you’re not insane and b) you have a shooting range membership or equivalent and c) you can secure your weapons. One guy who was out of work dropped his membership, and the following month got a visit to make sure his weapons were gone. (They were.)
DanielX
Let’s see here:
1. Pulling out a piece to show it off. (Look how big my dick is!)
2. At church.
3. In a closet.
4. Without clearing the chamber.
5. With the safety off – going way out on a limb here.
5. Resulting in a critically injured 20 year old woman.
Gun safety is not that hard, and this man had to really work at folding that many safety violations into such a short period of time.
As noted, you never ever handle a weapon without removing the magazine and clearing the chamber. If you haven’t unloaded the weapon completely (magazine and chamber), yourself, right that instant, assume it’s loaded and keep your finger away from the trigger. Criminal negligence doesn’t quite cover this and unfortunately criminally gross stupidity isn’t a felony offense. Mr. Zambrana is such a fucking cretin that it’s really difficult to believe he’s the end product of millions of years of evolution.
Raven
I’m not so sure I get what this insurance angle is? It would make things right if there was a payment after someone got killed by an idiot with a piece?
strict liability
That right there would solve a lot of problems.
Strict liability for gun ownership would lead to accident insurance as a norm. Otherwise, financial disaster would be a significant possibility. Insurance as a norm would lead to discounts for ‘safe users,’ training, proper storage, surcharges for idiotic behavior. As the insurance companies would have to pay out for each ‘accident,’ they would inexorably find ways to reduce the number of ‘accidents.’
carolus
For the life of me, I can’t understand why Zambrana wasn’t charged with something. If I’m fooling around with my car in a parking lot and accidentally hit someone, I can expect to be charged with something. And let’s face it–a car has much more business in a parking lot than a gun in a church.
Gunnutz make a lot of noise about being responsible but when it comes to senseless tragedies like this, they dismiss any accountability.
kdaug
The most dangerous gun is the unloaded one.
Patricia Kayden
So now we are selling guns in church? Interesting.
RossInDetroit
Speaking of stupid, Bobo’s doubling down on his Murray-based Poors = immoral theme after getting slapped around for a week by anyone who’s given the subject more than the cursory glance he’s invested. I can’t wait to see Pierce tee him up and knock him down the fairway.
FlyingToaster
@Raven: Does insurance prevent car accidents — well, maybe. Because people who are more prone to accidents pay more, or don’t have a car.
I was in a fender-bender a few weeks ago (my fault, since the animal I avoided and thereby hit my neighbor’s truck doesn’t have car insurance), and my insurance will go up. Which I absolutely accept. If I had a gun, I’d want to have insurance against accidents (since I live in a neighborhood of about 10K/sq.mi. people and at least as many pets). I don’t have a gun because unlike HerrDoktor, I don’t know how to shoot, and I have a four year old.
Personal responsibility and accountablity starts with things like insurance and gun safety and all of that jazz. The lack of charges just freaks me out.
Tom Levenson
@Raven: It’s not that payment after the fact changes tragedy. It is that embedding gun ownership in explicit obligations — legally binding ones — is good for both gun culture and society at large. IMHO, of course.
Tom Levenson
@RossInDetroit: That’s what I mean about a target rich environment.
Emma
Ditto. I like guns as art pieces; there’s a pair of Scottish dueling pistols I’d give an eyeteeth for if they weren’t already in a museum. I also like to eat what a hunter brings home (ducks a l’orange, yum yum), so I’m not going to ban the damn things. But so many idiots seem to think they’re some sort of toy…
goethean
@Raven: I’m not so sure I get what this insurance angle is?
It would cut the number of gun owners, and thus cut the number of gun deaths.
Bill ORLY
I am a “gun guy.” My grandfather worked for Remington for 30 years and I grew up in a gun town. I shoot competitively, carry regularly. I loath the NRA and would never give them a dime. My righty gun friends are CONVINCED that there will be a massive crackdown on guns if Obama is elected to a second term (the complete lack of action on enacting gun laws in the first term is a guarantee of laws in term 2. Rope-a-dope, I suppose), even though surveys of the legislature show absolutely no interest in enacting any restrictions.
The NRA has the gun community completely cowed, and convinced that any action on guns will lead to a slippery slope effect, and in no time we’ll be like England.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Raven: Exactly this, and same here. Only a fool would do otherwise.
Mutt
As a lifelong firearms owner/shooter, Is say everyone in that world I consider serious agrees with you completely. I know of zero serious gun owners who don’t think there should be a lot more facilities to shoot and provide safety training. So….you argument from this quarter.
Skepticat
I grew up with a healthy respect for guns, well-taught by my duck-hunting father, and did some target shooting. At one point (long ago, the very early seventies) I was living in a secluded rural area and having trouble with a persistent prowler, so my flying instructor loaned me a small handgun. One day I started wondering what would happen if the intruder got to it before I did (unlikely given where I had it stowed, but still … ), so I returned it. Not two weeks later another woman in the area came home from working a late shift, surprised a burglar, and was shot with her own gun. She survived, but just barely.
When volunteering as a call EMT, I saw and treated some horrendous results of stupidity with firearms, some of the “I didn’t know it was loaded” variety and a few where the person had a gun at hand while having a temper tantrum.
I don’t know how to deal with the problem, but I do know that there are too many fools with too many guns. And no one but an active duty soldier should have an assault rifle.
Kirk Spencer
I mostly agree. I disagree with the comprehensive “strict liability law” you suggest, at least on one aspect.
If someone steals my car and uses it to commit a crime, I have no liability.
If someone steals any of my property, for that matter, I am not liable for commission of crimes that involve that property.
No.
I think that if it can be shown the owner didn’t take proper precautions he can be punished under the same principles as people who do not properly secure hazardous materials. But the owner should not be punished because the thief used the stolen goods to commit a crime.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Skepticat: How do you define “assault rifle?”
anthony
“and in no time we’ll be like England.”
Playing darts, growing marrows – commendable alternatives.
Face
One doesn’t dare file gun-related charges stemming from an accident in St. Pete. Not if one wants to keep their county/city prosecutor job. Wingnut Mecca in St. Pete. NRA stronghold if there ever is one.
I’m surprised they haven’t charged the 20yr old for interferring with the flight of an innocent bullet.
joe1347
Ask Al Gore what he thinks about (supporting) Gun Control now? In the very close election of 2000 – if Al Gore would have not mentioned Gun Control prominently in the 2000 presidential election campaign – then in all probability we would have not been saddled with 8 years of George Bush. Think about it – wouldn’t progressives have voted for Al Gore anyway? Why did he need to even mention Gun Control?
If you want to understand why Gun Control is such electral poison – simply look back to 1994 and the electoral effects of Bill Clintons gun control legislation – especially the high capacity magazine ban. It’s not talked about in progressive circles – but the high cap mag ban pretty may have one of the major factors that given us the Republican congress of 1994.
So ANY gun control simply equals more elected Republicans and likely put in power Newt and George Bush.
Still want it?
Kirk Spencer
oh, and a snippet:
from An Old Song — Kipling
Linda Featheringill
So the dude was gunrunning at church? And the boyfriend was engaged in shopping for a gun instead of praising the Lord?
Oy.
GVG
I live in Florida and I used to live next door to an NRA member who taught gun safety classes for them in the community. From him I heard plenty about legal responsibility and the need to secure your guns etc. Its been a few years-maybe 6? But I don’t think Florida’s laws are going to leave this idiot unpunished. I think you should assume that there have not been charges YET. I’m pretty sure there will be although I have noticed that it never seems to happen instantly. I guess the police like to investigate and wait for test results etc but other such cases did have charges after awhile. My neighbor didn’t seem anything like the national NRA spokespeople by the way.
honus
@Villago Delenda Est: Not just when you take it put of storage. Every time it comes into your hand. I was taught that when you pick up a gun the first thing you do is check to see if it is loaded. If you hand it to someone, you check it again when they hand it back, even if it never left your sight. This may seem extreme, but the consequences of being wrong so grave and the ease of checking the chamber of any firearm make it as mandatory as unplugging the table saw when you change the blade.
honus
@WereBear:
The NRA used to do that, back when I was a kid. Now I tell people that it should be called the National Handgun Association, because that’s it’s main concern these days.
keestadoll
“—if someone steals it and uses it to cause harm, that’s at least in part your problem.”
I’m going to part company with you here. Let’s say you live alone. You own a legally purchased/papered/permitted gun. A thief breaks into your home,steals your gun and whatever else the thief wants, and then later uses your legally purchased weapon in a crime. According to this logic, you are partially responsible for this thief’s use of the gun stolen from me? No. The fact that the weapon was stolen from you realeases you from responsibility. It’s an entirely different thing if the weapon was not stolen but either given or sold by you to another and proper change of ownership protocols weren’t followed.
RossInDetroit
@honus:
The NRA has changed a lot. It used to be primarily outdoorsmen and hunters as recently as 30 years ago. many of those have dropped out and quite a number of Lifetime Members have quit in distress over the organization’s hard right swing toward activist 2nd Amendment absolutism. They’re still a big organization but the bulk of recent membership consists of those primarily concerned with gun rights over all.
It’s not the same group by any means.
Schlemizel
@joe1347:
Yeah, its not like there was someone else running that could have siphoned votes away from the left by saying something stupid like “there is no difference between Bush and Gore”
Bill ORLY
@honus: I never hand a gun to someone else without opening and locking the action.
When I took my CCW class, about 80% of the curriculum was focused on gun safety and legal issues. Now, you don’t need a permit to carry concealed. 6 months ago I walked into a gun shop for an evening shoot and was told that the two people who were hurriedly leaving as we came in just fired a shot through two aisle walls and into the wall over the door to the range. The moron pulled his Springfield and (for reasons which escape me) tried demonstrating how to remove the magazine. With his finger on the trigger.
100% of my gun friends disagree with the removal of a permit requirement. It seems to be part of the Wingnut Code… If there is a reasonable government restriction on ANYTHING, do away with it.
Skepticat
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko: High-capacity automatic or semiautomatic weapons–basically combat weapons, not for obliterating game or people
Schlemizel
@keestadoll:
morally yes you do bear some responsibility. Not legally but on some level you do have a bit of culpability.
@RossInDetroit:
The NRA is the trade association for the gun manufacturers now and an adjunct to the RNC. The NRA has supported gun neutral GOP candidates over pro-gun Dems.
As I said earlier, if you want a case-study for how a the wingnuts can take over a decent activist organization and make it a political and industrial tool skip for the cure & read up on what has become of the NRA.
Soonergrunt
I agree with this 100% Unlike a car, guns are designed to destroy objects and materials. Just like people have to be licensed to legally handle certain classes of drugs or other chemicals, and have to carry special bonds or insurance, I don’t see the problem with requiring the same of people who want to own a firearm. That these special bonds and insurance require certain facilities for the safe storage and operation of firearms is perfectly OK with me too.
Somebody on here asked how does one define an assault weapon?
I would define an assault weapon as any firearm that automatically loads and chambers a round as part of the firing action of the proceeding round, irrespective of whether or not the trigger must be depressed between rounds to continue firing, when that weapon is designed to draw ammunition from a removable, replaceable, reloadable magazine of a capacity greater than five rounds.
It’s the magazine capacity, and the capability for rapid reloading of a self-operating (automatic or semi-automatic) firearm that makes a firearm an assault weapon. Barrel length, caliber, overall length, and external features and components are all immaterial.
@honus: The NRA now stands for the National Republican Addendum. It is, for all intents and purposes, a wholly owned subsidiary of the republican national committee.
PTirebiter
Perhaps we should consider pushing for mandatory gun ownership. It would finally take the issue off the table with the added bonus of providing every adult with a red state acceptable voter I.D.
Ronzoni Rigatoni
Dear Ol’ Dad would beat the sh1t out of me if I so much as pointed a CAP GUN at anyone. Took all the fun out of playing Cowboys & Injuns. My 9 mm is hidden away. There is no ammo anywhere in the house. But as far as I am concerned, the goddam thing is still loaded.
Odie Hugh Manatee
The first thing I learned as a kid was that you treat all weapons as if they are loaded. If he had done that then nobody would have been shot. This is what happens when people who lack proper training are allowed to handle a weapon. Too many people think they are a ‘natural’ with weapons when they are actually a hazard to those around them when handling said weapons.
Sad story about yet another victim of the second amendment.
Face
Wait…gunners are always telling me they must have all 28 loaded pieces in their house to prevent robberies. Your house cant be robbed if you own a gun….that’s why you own a gun, I’m told. To shoot the robber and shit.
Soonergrunt
@Face: Yeah, I know, right? It’s not like people break into houses specifically to steal the fucking guns ever, either.
Dave
Does anyone else think that a man showing another man his gun in a closet (at Church, no less) is rather fraught in all sorts of Freudian ways?
honus
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko: “assault rifle” is like Jeff Cooper’s “Scout rifle.” It can be defined by certain parameters, but total precision is difficult.
Schlemizel
@PTirebiter:
You sir are a genius & should be running things at the DNC. This is a fabulous idea, right up there with the “every sperm is sacred act”. We need more of this!
JCT
@Bill ORLY: Hmmmm, sounds like you live in my state.
I also target shoot and own 2 handguns — I did not buy them until my children were grown and out of the house (well, OK, and I moved to AZ). Like Raven, the guns are kept unloaded on one end of the house and the magazines and ammo on the other. They only “meet” at the range. The stupidity of this tragic event is mind-boggling, I was always taught (MANY years ago) that it takes 2 people to check if a gun is loaded as in “never trust what someone tells you”. And not checking the chamber? WTF?
My experiences mirror Bill Orly’s exactly. A local gun range here went on record as saying that removing the CCW permit requirement was a bad idea. Holy crap, you would have thought they had endorsed Obama. Threats of boycotts, horrible phone messages, letters to the editors. And TRUST me, the owners are to the right of Atilla the Hun. It’s just fucking nuts. I took my CCW last weekend for the training aspect — it was actually a nice experience and the other guys were just there to learn about the laws and gun safety. Again, the crazies are loud and, heaven help us, heavily armed. But oh no, being “forced” to learn basic safety is “bad”. It’s like a parallel universe and the amazing thing is that they have little insight as to how they marginalize themselves.
And hah about the NRA, a few of the web sites I buy supplies from allow you to “top off” your purchase and send the difference to those psychos. I am probably one of 10 people who doesn’t… My favorite is that right after Obama was elected the NRA and the ammo makers stoked the fears that he would come and get their guns — ammo and components either disappeared or the prices skyrocketed. Every once in awhile you will see posting where someone admits they were worked over by the industry and NRA. But what is the NRA saying now? If he’s re-elected, THIS TIME he’s coming for your guns.
Sigh. Stupid and crazy, what a great mix.
Schlemizel
@honus:
I work with some very nice guys, decent human beings. Two of them are at least ‘strong-leaning Dem’ voters. Three of them own AR15s(one owns 4 of them) They had several mods on them including ones to facilitate “bump-firing” which makes your semi-auto AR into a full-auto M – legally. None of them hunts, none of them shoot sporting targets. I think the one with 4 of them believes he is preparing for the end times (despite the fact he is not religious & would deny that he is preparing).
I really like them all but this fixation with weapons of no sporting value scares the shit out of me.
honus
@Bill ORLY:On handgun I see people advising as a matter of course to carry an automatic “cocked and locked” with a round in the chamber. They are talking about housewives with their Sig P228s in their purses going to PTA meetings. Because, you know, you could be gunned down in the time it takes you to rack the slide.
If hand grenades were legal they’d be advising them to be carried by stringing them through their pins on your belt.
Schlemizel
@JCT:
My moran, ditto-sheep, BIL got goaded into buying a cheap Chinese knock-off AK47 when Clinton was coming for our guns.
He spent $800 (he could not afford) on the POS and could not sell it for that today. While he is still sure Obama is coming for his gun he seems to have learned his, very expensive, lesson and is not interested in further armament.
Schlemizel
@honus:
What good is the gun if it is not ready to rock-n-roll when needed? The bad guy is not going to give you a 2-minute warning. If you really think you are going to go all John Wayne on the bad guy you had better keep the gun loaded, with a round in the chamber at all times. Probably shouldn’t have the safety on either.
Most people with carry permits have not thought this through completely. They are not ready for armed combat and more likely to kill themselves than a bad guy.
mike in dc
Strict civil liability PLUS chain-of-custody criminal liability–dependent on the presence or absence of due diligence: if your gun was stolen, did you promptly report it? If your gun is recovered in the possession of a friend, associate or family member, is it more likely than not that you had foreknowledge of the intended use of the weapon? If you conduct a private sale, did you actually do a criminal background check? If you don’t show proper due diligence, you should face not just civil but also criminal liability for it. You have to get at the middlemen who are helping to distribute guns to criminals–through straw purchases, corrupt or negligent FFLs, and illegal back-of-trunk dealers who buy in bulk and resell on the street. The only ways to measure success are if 1) fewer firearms-involved crimes are committed per capita and 2) it becomes more expensive to acquire a gun through black market channels.
RossInDetroit
@Schlemizel:
I’ve fired a Chinese AK47. That example was actually very accurate out of the box. No idea if it would hold up, though. And I absolutely would not own one.
Pococurante
@FlyingToaster:
Back in high school I was driving down a neighborhood street in the rain when a squirrel ran out in front of me. I swerved to miss it, went into a slide and up into a yard, skidding to a halt just a few feet short of plate glass window.
I don’t swerve for squirrels anymore.
RAM
I guess I’m a little unclear on the concept of an armed guard at a church. What the hell kind of churches they running down there?
chopper
@Face:
if somebody breaks into your house and steals your gun, it means you did a shit job securing it, which makes you at least partly responsible for what happens afterwards.
likewise, if your little kid finds your gun and accidentally blows his brains out, you’ve got some serious trouble. it’s your responsibility to reasonably secure your firearm at home.
captnkurt
And we’ll ask the Lord to forgive for all our sins
As we look at the latest in gold-plated firing pins
Well, my two main men are Jesus and Ol’ John Birch
So we’re goin’ on down to the gun sale at the church
runt
I do like guns, enough so that I’m thinking of joining a pistol shooting club in order to get a permit to buy myself a flintlock weapon (I live in Norway, and you need a police permit for that here; we’re funny that way). So I say this as someone with no particular bias against guns or those who buy guns: What the hell is wrong with these people?
If I had a gun, I wouldn’t take it to church (not that I go to church, but you get my meaning). I certainly wouldn’t take a loaded gun to church. Indeed, I wouldn’t keep a loaded gun in my house. And if I took my gun out of the locker to show it to someone, I would make damn sure to check if it was loaded first. That’s supposed to be standard procedure. You should do it without even thinking, the moment you pick up a weapon, or when someone hands it to you. There is simply no excuse for not knowing it was loaded.
Guns don’t kill people. But idiots with guns do.
Villago Delenda Est
@honus:
If it’s not in your hand, under your observation, it’s been in storage. If it’s been in a holster, it’s been in storage.
Check it every time. No exceptions.
kindness
I agree with Tom here. Last time out I pretty much crapped the thread but I believe Tom is right on this one. Yea I own a few firearms but I do think the NRA is teh nutzoid and way too many people are given concealed carry permits. It stems from why people have guns I think. Some of my militia/teabagger friends (old college friends that I still love even though they are delusional & wrong) all seem to have the ego reasons covered. Wrong reason, sorry. Some of them have concealed carry permits even though they never carry money or anything I would feel that justifies a permit. No, they are scared of the ‘others’ and think those ‘others’ want what they have so bad they will need to defend themselves with their guns at any moment of the day. Nutzoid. Crazy talk. What can I say?
NCSteve
Ditto everyone who said “if you’re too fucking stupid to a) know ever gun should be treated as loaded, at all times, in every case, at every moment you hold it and b) every time you pull the clip from an automatic, you always, always, always, clear the chamber. And then treat it as if it’s loaded anyway is too fucking stupid to have any right to own a gun.”
But I have to add a third one. Even people who think they’re being careful have an amazing tendency to believe that sheetrock and plywood are bullet proof and/or that anyone they can’t see because they’re in another room doesn’t exist.
If we suddenly came down with a mass case of sanity and required extensive training, an examination and continuing education as a precondition to gun ownership–and adopted that as a cultural norm so that owning a gun without keeping up with the training is frowned upon the way, say, driving drunk and without a license is now frowned upon, we would . . . still only reduce the number of people who are accidentally killed by a gun that “wasn’t loaded.” Because, statistically speaking, people are inherently stupid.
J R in WVa
My Grandma taught me about guns. And all my cousins, using her .22 rifle, which was a bolt-action clip-fed rifle. Tho, the clip-fed part didn’t work too well, so we used it asd a single shot rifle, shooting many many tin cans to pieces.
Back then a box of 50 .22 rounds cost between $0.50 and 0.75 cents, and half or more of my allowance in the summer went that way. When Grandma and I went to the grocery, I would go downstairs and fetch my box of ammo for the weekend.
Not long after I got back home to W. Va. after my draftee service, I went with a friend to the home of one of his friends, Pete. Pete had a new 12 gauge shotgun, and he instantly pulled it from under the living room couch to show it to us, with much pointing at imaginary ducks and such, in the sky or up a tree.
When they handed it to me, I eased the slide back, only to see with dismay that the guys were pointing a loaded shotgun at the upstairs bedrooms… I handed it to the owner, saying, it’s loaded, you better unload it as I’m not expert with this model of shotgun. A close call I will never forget.
I was the least experienced hinter in the room, but thanks to my Grandma, I was the safest shooter.
My Grandma kept a tiny country store, one gas pump, a lamp oil tank, 50 lb. sacks of flour, corn meal, etc. canned good, and so on. She always wore the kind of apron that went behind her neck and covered most all of her front, to keep the lamp oil off her dress. It had two big pockets at her waist, one she used for change, and the other for her store pistol, a little .32 caliber automatic.
Everyone knew she carried a gun, as she emptied it most Sunday afternoons after church, shooting a tin can to bits. Then she reloaded it, and put it away until she went to open the store Monday morning. She was never held up in 35 years of store-keeping.
I live some 30 or 40 minutes from the nearest police station, assuming there is an officer there prepared to take off instantly, which isn’t the case most of the time. Everyone in the neighborhood owns guns. Even the hippies keep a gun, mostly to shoot deer in the fall and early winter.
When I took a concealed carry class, it was taught by a deputy who was a self described gun nut, in the sense that he loved guns, worked on and with them, taught about them, knew a lot about them, and enjoyed sharing his hobby with others. He spent far more time on safety and the laws and regulations about CCW permits than on how to shoot.
There was an hour spent on what to do if you are carrying and are stopped by police. There is a specific way to behave when pulled over to avoid either party getting hurt, involving keeping your hands on the steering and informing the officer you have a CCW permit, where your gun is, offering to provide your permit, etc.
After the class was over, we all caravaned to a country road with a big wide spot and a hill to shoot against, where he put up targets so we could show him we knew enough about handling guns safely to be trusted with a carry permit.
In W. Va. the sheriff issues permits, and if you are a qualified (non-felon, safe and able to handle a gun properly, non-crazy) person you will get a permit. The county is rural, such that the sheriff can ascertain the crazy risk pretty easily.
I have carried a pistol around some, traveling mostly. They are uncomfortable, heavy, awkward, jam against the seatbelt, etc. But on the road for a long drive, you can put it in a door pocket or other storage place easily reached.
I’m strongly in favor of required gun safety classes prior to being allowed to own a gun, and of permits before able to carry a concealed weapon. I think people should be strictly responsible for a gun in their possession, but if one is stolen, I don’t know how the victim of theft could be held responsible for that crime, and follow on crimes.
In rural parts of the country, guns are pretty much a necessary tool. If a stray, vicious dog enters your barnyard, you have a duty to protect your family members and livestock. If a badly injured wild animal shows up in your yard, you have a duty to contact your Department of Natural Resources (or whatever they call the game wardens in your area, report the injured animal, and volunteer to put the animal down in a humane way.
Technically, the laws requires the game warden to do the dirty job, but if you volunteer and he’s a two hour drive away, he will authorize you to do the job yourself.
I know that there are places where these circumstances are rare, but my cousin had her cocker spaniel taken in the front yard by a lion. I have had both feral dogs in the yard and a gutted deer in the back yard, what a joy. So I shot an severely injured 8-point buck with a snub-nosed .38 revolver at a range of about 8 feet, and then used my tractor to bury him in a field on the farm. I believe the buck was glad his agony was over.
One more thing, over the 50 years my Grandma lived in her farmhouse, she twice held would-be burglers at gun point waiting for the sheriff to show up. No one was harmed, they were found guilty of attempted breaking and entering, trespass, etc. and became unable to acquire a CCW permit ever again.
A long screed, I’ll stop now.
Rafer Janders
When I was a child I learned a useful little poem called “A Father’s Advice”, written by Mark Beaufoy:
Never, never let your gun
Pointed be at anyone.
That it may unloaded be
Matters not the least to me.
When a hedge or fence you cross
Though of time it cause a loss
From your gun the cartridge take
For the greater safety’s sake.
If twixt you and neighboring gun
Bird shall fly or beast may run
Let this maxim ere be thine
“Follow not across the line.”
Stops and beaters oft unseen
Lurk behind some leafy screen.
Calm and steady always be
“Never shoot where you can’t see.”
You may kill or you may miss
But at all times think this:
“All the pheasants ever bred
Won’t repay for one man dead.”
negative 1
@Mutt: I agree. The sad thing is the NRA would be perfect to push for that kind of safety and education if they weren’t so busy being the zipper to the GOP’s fly every time a rethug wanted to whip it out for the cameras.
JCT
@NCSteve:
Not to mention one of the other basic rules (right after don’t point the firearm at anything you don’t plan to destroy) is to KNOW what is behind whatever you’re pointing that firearm at. As the guys said upthread, the STUPID it burns.
El Cid
I am afraid that our Kenyonesian overlord will use this as yet another excuse to attack both our 2nd Amendment rights and our religious liberties, probably by threatening to take away our cherished right to exhibit and sell firearms in our houses of Christian worship.
And the way you’ll know this is going to happen — and I’m indebted to Wayne LaPierre for this insight — is that there is no sign that Obama’s doing any such thing, which means he’s trying to lure us all into letting our guard down.
Next thing you know, it’s 2013 and suddenly jack-booted IRS thugs will be nosing around our megachurches demanding that they commit to filling in a form declaring whether or not this is a gun-selling or non-gun-selling church.
honus
@Rafer Janders: Yeah, tell that to the guys who blamed a woman who shot dead in her yard during here deer season a few years back because she was wearing white gloves “that could be mistaken for a deer’s tail.”
Anybody that can’t tell a woman’s hand in glove from a deer’s ass has no business being anywhere near a high powered rifle.
Schlemizel
@RossInDetroit:
I have fired AKs, including full-auto and they are amazing bits of technology. I told my boy when he got to Afghanistan to pick one up for his personal use, he did as did most of the guys in his unit – he paid $25US for it, another guy got one for 5 or 6 porn magazines. They appear cheap and flimsy but are actually very durable and dependable. But the cheap knock-off one was very low quality, my guess is the Pakistani manufactured in the alley build better stuff. BILs is a poor counterfeit he got ripped off by wise-guys playing on his stupidity and irrational fear.
tjmn
I went with my hubby and son to the NRA gun museum. Son is really into military history. I intensely disliked being in the same building as nra headquarters. It’s like I was instantly paranoid. I did drink the water there.
honus
@RAM: Wasn’t Dr.Tiller shot to death at church?
Schlemizel
@J R in WVa:
The most careful guy I know unloaded a cheap .22 auto rifle, stuck his little finger in to feel for a casing, worked the action again & pulled the trigger – nothing. Worked the action again, went in the house & before putting it in a case pulled the trigger & made a 22/100s inch hole in his floor. Sure rim-fire rounds are funny that way but I have seen other accidents where people were not as careful. Guns are ALWAYS loaded.
@JCT:
But sheetrock always stops bullets on TV! Seriously, if you have a rifled gun for home defense you probably will kill a relative or neighbor before a burglar.
El Cid
By the way, our “enforce existing gun laws!” friends at the NRA were screaming against the jackbooted thugs of the ATF when they asked gun shops to please fill in a form if someone made large, repeated purchases of high powered firearms — like the big FBI / ATF raid a few years ago showing how one guy bought 60 AK-47s from a single gun shop in Arizona over a period of 4 months.
But it wasn’t just standing up for FREEDOM; at the time the poor benighted small bidnessmen valiantly supplying weapons to someone so clearly trans-selling them to Mexican narco-paramilitaries was that by filling in yet another form, they were just all so incredibly, terribly burdened and it would impose a hardship.
So, small businessmen have plenty of time to shop around health plans and continually monitor all their health treatment options on the market-value model, but they just don’t have the time and staff to fill in one fucking form when some dude buys five dozen assault rifles in one quarter from the same store.
Cris (without an H)
How do you pronounce “Moises?”
Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!
Three words you never hear from constitutional literalists:
—–“well-regulated militia”.
*********
Seriously, I’ve got no problem with a farmer having a long gun to shoot coyotes, or a hunter shooting deer or rabbits, etc.
But a handgun has no other use except to shoot other human beings. You like to aim at targets? Buy a BB gun or go play darts at the local pub.
The fact that you choose to own a handgun demonstrates your conscious or unconscious desire to shoot, hurt or kill other human beings.
Sociopathy or mental illness are words that spring to mind.
That’s why conservatives are more likely to own handguns than liberals: they are more likely to be mentally ill or sociopathic.
This is the truth that dares not speak its name in the US of A.
Think about it, handgun owners… what would you think about me if I insisted on my ‘right’ to have a torture chamber in my basement?
You’d think I was one fucked-up fool, wouldn’t you?
Well, that’s pretty much what I think about you, Mr. or Ms. Handgun Owner.
Think about it.
IrishGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: Amen!
Schlemizel
@Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!:
Add, if you want to be a strict constructionist than “arms” are muzzle-loaded smooth-bore muskets, Just as the founders intended.
FlyingToaster
@Pococurante:
It wasn’t a squirrel, but one of the cats from down my side street, deciding to run up the hill along the main drag. Normally an indoor cat (I know the owners), who clearly escaped again. WarriorGirl calls it “that dumb cat”, as opposed to the 4 smart cats who live next door and like to roll in our nepeta, or the across-the-side-street orange cat who likes to sun himself on the front steps.
If it was really unlucky, it made it all the way to Gore Place and was eaten by the coyotes.
carolus
In the abstract, gun education/training is an excellent idea.
In practice, however, many gun safety courses are taught by people who probably shouldn’t be allowed near butter knives. Courtland Milloy took a CCW class and found the instructor was much more interested in promoting the NRA and the rightwing than teaching gun safety.
I’ve never heard of anyone failing an NRA course; many of these people go on to become paid instructors and trainers.
Moises
@Cris (without an H):
Moy-zaysh
Janus Daniels
“… Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Reuger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber. … Deputies said Zambrana has a permit to carry a concealed weapon.”
Then, whoever gave that damn fool any kind of weapons permit also needs prosecuting.
pragmatism
Down in San Diego, a youngster who had just graduated from BUD/S (SEAL training–note, he was not yet a SEAL although the media ran with asserting that he was) was out at a bar, brought a young lady home who had misgivings about his firearm. To demonstrate that it was not loaded and her concerns were misplaced, he placed it to his head and fired. Even with his recent 3rd phase weapons training, he made a fatal mistake. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57354566/navy-seal-dies-after-accidentally-shooting-self/
Viperbuck
Bill ORLY
@Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!:
I have thought about it. Strawman histrionics don’t sway me. You are the prime example of why the NRA is as successful as they are. I shoot competitive pistol. I also hike in mountain lion country. Would I feel more comfortable with my 870 loaded with buckshot? Sure, but that’s a bit much for me.
I’m also reasonably certain that there are people with torture chambers in their houses, for sexual reasons you may consider deviant. Let’s not start frothing at the mouth here.
rea
After all, the 2nd amendment talks about “well-regulated.” What possible argument could there be against the constitutionality of any gun safety regulation?
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
off topic but “strapped” got me thinking, ahem, outside the box.
lil wayne endorses condoms, no doubt there must be a market, but i would guess that market would be reticent to purchase something marketed brazenly by “lil wayne”
PIGL
@Raven: in the long run, I suppose would go the argument, insurance would make it less likely that idiots would be holding a legal piece, because the couldn’t pay the rates. And nobody’s precious 2nd ammendment rights would be infringed.
At least we are on BJ where most people are somewhat sensible. There are two fucking purity lunatics policing the diaries at GOS with their gun fetish…they say it simplt for electoral strategy, but they are simply lying.
slippy
Something very similar happened to one of my classmates in junior HS, lo these 30+ years ago.
Young Brian was visiting his friend Mike. Mike’s dad had a revolver. Mike and Brian thought it would be fun to play with Dad’s gun. Brian held the “unloaded” gun to his head, and fired it. And Brian has spent the last 30 years in a hole in the ground, never even finishing puberty, because he and his buddy thought guns were toys.
I don’t know if anything ever happened to Mike’s dad, but I do remember it was very hard to look at Mike the next few weeks at school. It’s rough wishing pariah status on such a young kid, but fuck me they should have known better. They weren’t mentally deficient as I recall. Just not very damn careful.
Honestly, I don’t think anyone had to pay any penalty for that act of supreme stupid. And I mean leaving a gun around the house for 12-year-old boys to play with, as well as getting said gun out and playing with it.
At any rate, Brian is why I never have allowed a gun in my house, ever. Four kids. Not putting them in harm’s way for a false sense of “home security.”
Svensker
@Viperbuck:
That always irritates the crap out of me. Is Arizona a politer place than Paris? Or Toronto for that matter. They didn’t use to call it the “polite West”, now did they?
slippy
@Viperbuck:
We ARE an armed society. There’s no “coulda” in it. Anyone can have a gun.
We are obviously not more polite. Said argument is an example of magical thinking.
BigSouthern
It’s nice to see the “well-regulated” argument making the rounds, as it is often left out of the discussion entirely for the preferred NRA binary.
The Virginia General Assembly is in the process of making it easier to run guns up and down the East coast again. I think at this point both chambers have passed resolutions to repeal the state’s “one handgun a month” restrictions.
They argue explicitly that the reason we can do this is because crime now isn’t as bad as it was in the 80s/90s when the provision was initially put in place. So now we don’t need to worry about guns from Virginia making their way up the coast to NYC, which means it’s cool to buy as many guns as you want with absolutely minimum restrictions. This is after the governor voiced his support for doing away with the state’s screening process for buyers and just leaving it to the federal system.
Then they turn around and want to pass legislation affirming castle doctrine, making it okay for professors to arm themselves before heading to campus, and a host of other provisions all with the implicit argument that if you don’t the criminal are gonna get you.
It’s insane, and I would really just like some training provisions. If I have to get trained and licensed to use my car then I really don’t understand not doing the same thing for using a gun. Especially when for the past month there’s been about a story a week of kids getting shot accidentally by guns, and that’s just the LOCAL news.
Just set them up the same way you have driving academies, only allow experienced professionals who have gun training as part of their job (ex-cops, military, etc.), and have some followup provisions to make sure they keep their training fresh.
liberal
@Bill ORLY:
There’s no strawmen here, but rather a simple cost/benefit question: what would the costs and benefits be to various regulation regimes on handguns, including near-total bans?
somegayname
@Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!: So much failure in your post. Long guns can – and will – be cut down for illegal uses. Owning a handgun demonstrates my conscious resolution to defend myself and family against an assailant. There is little probability of this happening, I know. I also know housefires are relatively rare but I still have an extinguisher on every floor and the kids know the escape plan. I also own handguns that have no practical use but are of historical interest. I would never use a Tokarev for self defense.
Can't...Help...Commenting...
@Schlemizel:
Yet – you have made over half a dozen comments on this “s***tstorm” that you dread sitting through….
;-)
HyperIon
I read that article in the orginal as I am in Florida now dealing with the wheels coming off in the lives of my aging parents.
I grew up here so I should have been prepared for the suffocatingly religious atmosphere. God is invoked about every 15 minutes here…in the paper, on the radio, in conversations overheard. Today the front page of the Tampa Tribune had a long article about two people with previously failed marriages who wrote letters to God asking him to send someone decent, etc. And it worked!
I think greater than 95% of the obits say something like: x went to live with God…, y joined God in heaven…, Jesus took z …
I have been exposed to more CNN and NBC news in the last month than ever before in my life. how can anybody watch that cretin brian williams? the copy he reads with difficulty SUCKS. CNN is so bad in so many ways that the fact that it has any viewers left is a horrible commentary on the state of american citizenry.
wenchacha
@RossInDetroit: On Sunday, my 20 yr old son and I attended the funeral services for his best friend of many years. First really close death, first open casket my son has seen. These boys grew up in our home, and the friend was a regular fixture in our home. We live in a quiet suburb; we can walk through our neighborhoods at night and not be fearful.
His friend just turned 21 on New Years Day; my son was home from college and celebrated the holidays with him. I think he spent the night here once or twice when the guys had been out late. They had a wide circle of mutual friends I came to know over time.
Last week my son’s buddy returned to a house he once shared with two other guys. He wanted to pick up some items he had left behind when his housemate/landlord kicked him out. They had a falling out; my son thinks a threat had been made. The housemate/landlord shot our friend; I’m guessing his chest. My son said somebody told him there were two gunshots. Probably in the space of a small living room or the like. The police found his body outside on the ground.
I am heartbroken: for me, for my son, my husband, this dead boy’s Mom and Dad and a long list of brothers and extended/blended families. Some fucking impulsive asshole pointed his fucking shotgun at our friend and shot him dead, like he had threatened. My son called his Dad in tears; it took him a while to say the words.
My husband told me the news when I woke in the morning. I had seen the 11PM news story that a man shot another man dead at the address. I even googled the address, because I knew it was near where CJ had lived for a while. Instead of waking my husband about it, I dismissed it and went to sleep. My mind was trying to do some kind of scramble where I could turn the world back by 24 hours and make it all better. Still trying to do that, trying to solve what went wrong, how to fix it and unshoot the fucking gun.
We have hunting rifles. I grew up with hunting rifles, and even had an aunt who hunted. We got my son a rifle at Christmas. My husband shoots trap.
I’m writing this in something of a haze. For someone prone to depression, this is a challenge. I am trying not to get low, and trying to help my husband with it, too. Hoping that school will keep our boy occupied with classes and reading and activities. Our best advice to him was to take it a day at a time.
I don’t see Americans giving up guns, and no big reason to aside from the dead people stuff. This death was so terrible, so pointless. Alleged killer is in custody. Nothing will bring back CJ. This will hurt for a long time.
Chris T.
@Raven: Insurance won’t fix the injured or dead, but it would at least cover some or all of the medical costs for treating someone to prevent permanent disability and/or death.
There are currently three possible outcomes for the girl who was shot: full recovery, disability, death. In the first case, the medical expenses incurred today will probably run between $10,000 and $100,000. In the second, the medical expenses today plus all the lost potential will probably run somewhere between $500,000 and $3,000,000. In the last, the direct and indirect medical expenses will probably most similar to the first case, but the lost potential is huge: 6 to 9 million dollars as of various estimates a year ago.
One can claim that it’s impossible to put a price on human life, but the fact is that we do it implicitly all the time, through things like deciding for or against smog control on cars for instance. Money won’t bring back a severed limb either, but we still have insurance that covers such things. Extending this to guns and their consequences seems logical, at least.
somegayname
I support strict liability for negligent discharges. I joined a private range because I had been muzzle swept by too many idiots (really, one is too many) at the public range. There is an element of macho bravado many gun owners (particularly older guys) which includes disregard for the 4 rules.
For theft, I disagree. Would you charge the owner of a stolen car that was used in a hit and run?
I love the deference to cops and military with respect to gun training and legislation. This after Cole posted that video where the cop muzzle swept his own foot to kick at a window, and pragmatism linked to the SEAL shooting himself to impress a lady. Same standards need to apply to all, particularly cops who open carry in public.
carolus
@somegayname-
I think the issue concerning firearm theft concerns the mandatory reporting of such thefts. The gunnutz oppose it because they see it as a form of registration. At least that’s the argument.
Quite frankly, I believe they’re opposed to mandatory reporting of such thefts because it would likely point out ownership of proscribed weapons and/or possible ineligibility to own such firearms.
The deference to police and military may or may not be justified. But, I’d say they’re certainly a better bet that most who have never been screened for mental illness, criminal records, substance abuse and the like.
Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!
Well, rooty-toot for you, you great big manly man. Wouldn’t Jesus be proud!
Well, not too bright, are ya? But hey, it’s probably a great excuse to carry your gun around and be a great big manly man.
‘Boogeyman’ paranoia. Stop watching so much TV. You might even consider growing up and becoming an adult.
Are you really going to shoot some asshole who broke into your house to steal your tv set?
If the asshole brought along his gun with him, are you really going to get into a shooting match with him?
Liz
As long as there are stupid and/or angry people in the world, guns will always be dangerous, regardless of safety courses, gun safes, etc. It’s pretty simple.
portlander
As has been reminded to me recently, people who are 2nd amendment aficionados are not bothered by this sort of thing. This is the kind of thing that “just happens” if you have guns around; it’s part of their reality. So it seems strange to those of us who do not have guns around, “why keep guns around if you know the likelihood of someone being accidentally shot is high?” But that question never occurs to them no matter how many people in their immediate or extended family have been shot with guns accidentally (and I’m not talking about deaths which are much more rare, but getting shot which is surprisingly common).
Bill ORLY
@Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!: Any reason you chose to quote a line in your reply which I did not state? Trollish idiocy may be more your line, but making it appear that I said something I didn’t is a bit much.
I suppose it would be better if I followed your lead and sat in the finest leather bar in The Castro sipping Cosmos rather than being outside. I’m sorry if I’m not the manly dart player you’d like me to be. I’m assuming anyway, which is what you seem to be doing about me. Who the fuck said anything about Jesus? Yet another strawman sighting. Do you get a free T-shirt for entering so many rhetorical inconsistencies? I’m sure I’m not progressive enough for you, and that keeps me up nights.
Chuck Butcher
We could always deal with some realities here. There are several charges they guy could face, the prosecutor decides, not the NRA or any of us. I’d be asking some serious questions if it was in my area.
Most states wildlife programs are heavily or mostly funded by the sale of licenses. Yes, the NRA’s politics blow, they also are a primary source of hunter ed, gun safety courses, and concealed carry courses (where applicable, like OR). I was an NRA member until it became clear that their mission as a 2nd A org had been subsumed into a right wing GOP agenda.
Owning a gun does not somehow magically remove your ordinary responsibilities under law. It also pays to know just what your state laws have to say about self-defense and legal carry methods, the penalties can be real serious.
Facts are what they are, imagination is something else. There has been a fair amount of imagination on display.
Chuck Butcher
@Chuck Butcher:
Since WP won’t let me edit…
I can’t speak to NRA programs I haven’t been involved in, I do know of a CCW class member who failed on the spot for unsafe handling and I know of a pretty fair number of youth failures in hunter ed in my area. What happens with an individual instructor isn’t what the programs are and they are not designed to be lackadaisical.
Rafer Janders
Owning a handgun demonstrates my conscious resolution to defend myself and family against an assailant.
Well, statistics indicate that that gun is far more likely to kill you or a member of your family than it is an assailant.
And, assuming you keep your gun unloaded and in a locked safe, as proper safety precautions indicate you should, you had better hope that the assailant gives you time to unlock the case and calmly load.
Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!
Um, because I was talking to another big manly man handgun owner…?
rea
I also hike in mountain lion country.
I did that a lot in my teen years, and had several close encounters. Unprovoked attacks on humans are extremely rare–something like 20 fatal attacks since they started keeping track of such things in the 19th Century, almost all of which involved mountain lions who had become habituated to humans. If you think hiking in mountain lion country is a reason to carry a gun, you’re a loon.
Ruckus
@kindness:
I used to carry $10,000 to $35,000 at a time(fully legal!) returning from events in my last job. Fairly regularly. Had to live on the road with the money for 24-48 hours every time. Did this for several years. And I never worried about being robbed. I certainly didn’t need a gun, or any other weapon for that matter.
Ruckus
@Schlemizel:
OK best round fired unintentionally story.
Customer came into my bicycle shop with a hole in his tire and wheel. He had run over a 22 round which went into the tire. When the wheel rotated back around the rim hit the pavement and fired. Missed him but ruined his several hundred dollar wheel.
marie
Isn’t dry-firing supposed to be terrible for the pin? I was taught to carefully avoid pulling the trigger without a round chambered. I always think of that when I hear stories of people being injured by pulling the trigger on a weapon they believed was unloaded.
libarbarian
I own two guns and I am with you.
somegayname
@Rafer Janders: Statistics also show crime increases when ice cream sales increase. Further analysis suggests that both are independently driven by seasons/temperature rather than a direct correlation. When guns are available they are used in crime, this does not mean that if guns are unavailable the crimes will not occur. Particularly when dealing with domestic violence and the assailant is bigger than the kids or spouse, can poison them or just set the damn house on fire.
Gun is either on me or in the safe. I have a separate safe in the bedroom for access, and the gun is loaded in the safe. The first rule of gun safety is ‘every gun is always loaded’, and far too many idiots shoot family/friends with unloaded guns.
somegayname
@Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!: You’re adorable.
What would you do? The guy is crazy enough to get into a gunfight, I don’t think hugs would work against him. You need to grow up and stop obsessing about other peoples dumb hobbies. Guns are like gay marriage or abortions: if you don’t like them, don’t get one.
debbie
The NRA has changed a lot.
The NRA robo-called me in December for some reason. It was Wayne LaPierre, spitting out his words, railing that Obama had joined China, Russia, and the UN to take away my guns.
I don’t know how I get on some of these lists, but it was pretty funny.
rdale
Here in Utah, where guns are almost as sacred as the Book of Mormon, we laughed when a CCW instructor drops his piece in the bathroom of a local Arbys and blasts the toilet; or when another one, in a CCW class, was showing the eager students to handle a gun which turned out to be loaded and he shot himself in the leg. But we don’t laugh, when some kid is showing off daddy’s new gun and kills himself/another kid/mom accidentally. It happens all the time here.
somegayname
@marie: snap caps are great, but most modern semiautos are safe to dryfire.
Don
The gun went off
What crap writing and blame-avoiding. It just went off, huh? Magic! No, AP, someone discharged it. They may have done so accidentally or believing it was not loaded, but it did not “go off.”
Recall
It would be nice if guns were held to the same safety standards as food processors and microwaves. Removing the magazine should lock the trigger mechanism.
Paul in KY
@Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!: If someone breaks into my house while I am there, I automatically assume thay are there to murder me & act accordingly.
Paul in KY
@marie: Depends on the weapon. Some are more forgiving. Sorta depends how powerful the spring that sends the pin forward is. The pin is set up to hit something (the back of the bullet), so when it doesn’t, it can place undue strain on some of the parts.
Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!
Don’t worry, I wont.
Guns are for assholes.
And you can quote me on that.