I just called Comcast and attempted to cancel my subscription to Showtime. I was flipping through the channels a few minutes ago, and noticed that Showtime had a comedy special. I’m a big sucker for comedy- love Patton Oswalt, Louis CK, Mitch Hedberg, and many many others. I’m the kind of person who, when a comedy special comes on, and I notice it, I watch.
Tonight, Showtime’s “comedian” was some degenerate scumbag named Corey Holcomb. When I flipped through and caught his show in mid-stream, the first “joke” was about domestic abuse laws. Apparently, he finds it very, very irritating that police enforce domestic abuse laws, because it makes it “hard to discipline your woman.” You see, these new laws are all the result of “some brothers taking it too far and using a closed fist.” If they had only used an open faced palm to slap their woman, it would be like “resetting a tv. See. Your antenna is on right now.” Later, Holcomb informed us that “date rape is just an opinion.”
Showtime is promoting this vile bullshit in the following manner- “Standup comedian and “love doctor” Corey Holcomb provides a rib-tickling dose of romantic reality with this hilarious, hour-long concert special that zeroes in on relationships gone awry.” I don’t know what Showtime execs are thinking, but if they think this is “rib-tickling romantic reality,” there is something very seriously wrong with them.
I don’t have patience for this shit. I called, tried to cancel (I was on hold while writing this and learned the office is closed, but I will do this first thing in the AM) and will tomorrow morning, and I intend to make sure they know why. Please, if you subscribe to Showtime, I ask you to do the same. And if anyone knows how to contact the Color of Change folks to help get them on board, please let me know.
lahke
Thanks, John.
Can’t join you, though. I pulled the plug on all of them during the O.J. shenanigans. Frees up a lot of time–how else do you think I can keep up with this blog?
khead
Get a grip. Comcast doesn’t give a shit what you think John.
If you want good comedians on Showtime, I suggest Gary Owen.
Search it.
Trentrunner
If you’re cancelling subscriptions based on rampant misogyny, you’ll be cable-free in a matter of days.
fasteddie9318
Well, Game of Thrones, if you’re into that sort of thing. But I do think the bulk of quality cable TV has shifted from the pay channels to places like FX and AMC.
befuggled
@khead: I don’t see the problem with cancelling a cable channel because they piss you off.
Jeff Spender
I’m watching all of the Stargate shows on Netflix.
I am very happy.
A moocher
@befuggled: neither do I.
burnspbesq
Like it or not, there’s an audience for that stuff, and the audience for it is far larger than the universe of cable subscribers that find it offensive. You do what you think is right, but don’t have any illusions about it having a larger impact than the $5/month they won’t be getting from you. That programming isn’t going away any time soon.
Ella in New Mexico
John, he’s a COMEDIAN. Ironically, the discomfort he creates by joking about this subject may actually enhance people’s sensitivity to this topic.
As a woman who worked for almost 15 years in the field of helping domestic violence victims I promise: It’s ok to keep your Showtime subscription.
Most normal people now get that it’s not cool to beat your loved ones up–they don’t need a comedian to change their minds. The ones who still do have a problem that will not be changed by any tv show, much less scientific or rational evidence. We’ve actually made great strides in teaching victims that they deserve better than that.
If A-holes choose to be “wife beaters”, then the cold, hard hand of the justice system will be the only thing that will change their attitude. You going without decent cable tv entertainment won’t make a dent in the problem.
JC
Corey Holcomb is fucking funny as shit. Yes, it’s irreverent and wrong, but so is most of Comedy.
He is also the voice of the boyfriend of Cleveland’s X-Wife on “The Cleveland Show”
Seriously, he is not actually advocating beating women.
It’s a fucking comedy routine.
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: No, it probably isn’t going anywhere, but he isn’t supporting it. And who knows, he could start a boycott that brings down the network. Stranger things have happened.
khead
@befuggled:
@A moocher:
Showtime broadcasts all kinds of shit that can piss a man off.
Mr. Cole is free to cancel Showtime if it pisses him off. I am free to make fun of him if he does….
See comments 11-15.
John Cole
@JC: There was nothing, and I repeat, nothing, funny about anything I saw.
Violet
I didn’t know who he was, so googled him and checked out his Twitter feed. He definitely seems like an asshat. He’s not just misogynistic, he’s an equal opportunity offender:
Bago
There are people out there that don’t a la cartè through their Xbox? Weird. It must suck to be old.
lahke
Think how long it took MADD to change people’s minds about drunk driving–years of lobbying and education campaigns. As a result, I find movies about happy drunks driving a car just intolerable–films like Arthur and Harvey are just unwatchable. So you keep protesting and boycotting, John–it all adds up.
Vinnie
I agree. There’s absolutely no reason to beat a woman, open or closed fist. As long as she does as she’s told.
hitchhiker
Sorry, but JC is right. Slapping women isn’t funny . . . unless you’re the sort of person who laughs at everything, including raping children.
It’s not a meaningless gesture to say so, either. There’s an audience for that stuff, yep. There’s also a market for snuff films and teen prostitutes. Should we put the 1-800 numbers up on Showtime to demonstrate our cool acceptance of all things?
FlipYrWhig
This is a staple of the form, actually, along with “back in my day you could beat your kids, and it’s too bad we can’t have that anymore.”
Jon
Libruls hate fun.
Dennis
There’s a difference between blue humor, which is often actually funny, and simply being an asshole. Guys like Anthony Jeselnik, Louis CK, and Greg Giraldo know how to walk the very fine line between the two. This Corey Holcomb character doesn’t sound funny at all.
MikeJ
@Bago: There are people out there who don’t use TPB?
Omnes Omnibus
@Jon: Drop down a thread.
John O
Way to vote with your wallet, John. But this is a tough one for me, being a near absolutist free speech advocate.
I have a dear friend that did a lot of work for the domestically abused, and I used to torture her with the argument that they’re responsible for their own dipshit decisions about whom to get romantically involved with. There is truth to that.
*sigh* I’m not sure anything matters anymore…Romney is going to get close to being POTUS. We’re a nation of morons. Again, though, way to do what you think is right.
MattR
@Omnes Omnibus: He said fun, not infantile
@Special One: On DVD.
Special One
@Bago: They probably pay for porn too.
Omnes Omnibus
@John O: Nah, free speech isn’t implicated here. Cole isn’t saying that they can’t put the stuff on the air; he is saying he won’t be a part of it. Free speech that people can say what they want; it doesn’t mean that they can do absent consequences.
John O
@Omnes Omnibus:
Totally agree. That’s why I applaud JC for canceling his service, and telling them why.
The “free market” of speech, I guess.
lahke
@John O: This would be a little more convincing in a culture that didn’t glorify stalker porn like the Twilight movies.
Omnes Omnibus
@MattR: Infantile fun?
khead
Do any folks here know which cable channels run those awful Chris Rock shows?
julian
Yeah, Holcomb is a sexist asshole. I followed him for a bit (his jokes on growing up in “the ghetto” were pretty good) but the blatant misogyny is just to much to put up with for the occasional insightful joke.
And yes, he is indifferent to spousal abuse. He is indifferent to most forms of misogyny. Don’t let people like Ella guilt you into putting up with this shit. Holcomb is a sexist. Everything about the man screams it.
Jeff Spender
@lahke:
I was at the Science Fiction Research Association meetup this year in Detroit, and one academic presented a paper about how the relationships depicted in Twilight had all of the signifiers of pederasty. It was entirely convincing.
stormhit
@efgoldman:
That is an incredibly untrue statement, but only watching one episode in the middle of a series usually isn’t the best way to judge something.
On the Corey Holcomb subject, I was inclined to think it’s just comedy and to loosen up…but after looking at his twitter feed the guy might actually be a legitimate degenerate scumbag. Or he’s just so pathetically one note that he doesn’t even know what he originally set out to joke about anymore.
John O
@lahke:
I’ve never seen a Twilight movie, a full episode of Law and Order, or any CSI.
But I stand by what I said: People are responsible for their own relationship decisions. Men and women alike.
Will e
Wow, a comedian offended somebody… LETS ALL GO HYPERVENTILATE!!!
lahke
@John O: Right. Men and women alike. Because all of those guys are brave enough to leave bad relationships when their spouse/partner threatens to kill them. You’ve got a little Anatole France thing going here, JohnO. Feel free to sleep under the bridge.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
I’m all for voting with your wallet. Good for you, Cole. And I’m glad know I’m not missing a thing not having Showtime.
John O
@lahke:
Oh, for Christ’s sake. Here again I find myself too stupid for the BJ commentariat. I don’t know who Anatole France is, nor do I care after a quick Wikipedia scan.
Most men won’t ever threaten to kill their loved ones, lahke. Like, WAY most. And it doesn’t matter that women do it far less frequently; that’s simply a matter of degree.
Thanks for the kind sentiment.
amk
@John O:
Do you even see the connection here ?
throwaway
@John O: Victim blaming. You call everyone in the US morons but you will blame the victims of abuse for being abused in a situation that you know piss-all about. Perhaps a dose of your cynicism will be a cathartic moment for you one day.
Bill Cole
I must have missed the bit where John said he was magically getting a law passed to shut down Showtime and execute the scumbag comedian.
Free speech surely can’t mean that we all have a right to be paidby a random unwilling audience for whatever stupid shit escapes our mouths. If you’re that sort of free speech absolutist, I’d be happy to start billing you monthly and sending you my “jokes.”
hamletta
Ex-cable employee here: Do register your disapproval. Call in and tell them how offensive it was.
But don’t take up too much time; they need to get on to the next caller, who might buy something, bless their hearts. Be kind.
It’ll fall on deaf ears, because SHO is a premium channel.
They don’t program these channels, so all they can do is register your disapproval on a form. But your cable company has data analysts who look at this stuff, so if a bunch of people are offended by a certain program, they track that — for your market.
Do write in online to Showtime, too. (https://sho.custhelp.com/app/ask/)
Far more effective: Showtime put this guy on the cable-waves.
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: I don’t. Care to explain?
whetstone
My wife is a domestic violence lawyer, so I get to hear stories about the victim’s perspective of these jokes every day. Thanks for doing this.
John O
LOL. Well, here we go!
Let me get this straight, lahke and amk: Society is responsible for individuals making individually poor relationship decisions. Is that about right?
I don’t even have a serious problem with that POV. I even get it, and have supported the abused with MY wallet. Philosophically, though, I have some issues with it. People DO have some goddamn responsibility for their own decisions, NO?
So continue the abuse! It’s been so damn hot I slept all day and am ready to take it.
lahke
@John O:
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
It’s all about differential impact. At the risk of starting down another tangent, it’s like the Republicans saying that voter fraud laws apply to everyone, while knowing full well that the impact will be on Democratic voters.
We live in a culture where women are not only encouraged to be romantically passive, but called sluts or ball-breaking bitches when they aren’t. And then are blamed for finding themselves in a situation that requires strength, persistence, and luck to emerge from. So when John C. wants to throw down a marker to say that accepting that situation isn’t acceptable, I’m with him.
sfinny
O/T My co-worker was just diagnosed with a ruptured disk between 6 and 7 and recommended surgery. Just looking for any recommendations or advice.
angler
Along with DougJ, this post is one of the things that keeps me coming back to BJ. Cole got so pissed at a comedy special that he got on the horn on a Friday night to cancel the sub. Well done, and nuts! I defy Josh Marshall or Kos to have that much passion about what really matters.
throwaway
@John O: & @John O: Women are simply not in a place of power to get out of that situation where a man is looming over every aspect of her life.
Essentially what it boils down to is that victimhood is not a two-way street. You wouldn’t say “How dare that woman put herself in that position of getting abused and ruining that poor man’s life”, or would you? Why aren’t you condemning the abusers?
David Koch
Just Words.
ABL 2.0
*blink*
John O
@lahke:
I agree! If you could read, you would’ve noticed! I said, “Way to vote with your wallet,” or something like that.
But it’s gotten a LOT better in the 53 years I’ve been on the planet, and I expect it to continue to improve. You’re still avoiding who is responsible for individually HORRIBLE relationship decisions. Is it the rest of us, or the person making the decision? C’mon, oh-quoter-of-poets, take a stand!
Amanda in the South Bay
Why do people have to be so damn contrarian? If Cole finds it offensive (and I think a lot of decent minded people would to), why the fuck should he support it? Jesus, so white upper class men don’t find it offensive, geez, what a surprise?
amk
@Omnes Omnibus:
Absolutist free-speech crap wrought CU, limpaugh and other rwnj shock-jocks, pox news et.al. The very enablers of mittbot presidency.
David Koch
Maybe we can get Tipper Gore to start a PMRC on comedy.
I’m convinced Reich Marshall Tripper killed Frank Zappa.
Omnes Omnibus
@John O: Of course individuals bear responsibility for their decisions. Now, let’s say someone makes a bad decision, then what? Fuck ’em? Let someone beat them? Ignore what is happening? Or try to help?
John O
@amk:
Oh, bullshit. The money = speech argument is one of the most logically stupid positions of all time. Ridiculously inept reasoning. If money equals free speech, how come Bill Gates has so much more of something “free” than I do?
As for Limbaugh and FOX and the rest, me thinks me sniffs some desire for censorship! Great idea, because it will never work against you some day!
Let me guess: Some poet from the past said it best.
pseudonymous in nc
I generally give a certain amount of latitude to comics, because there’s a lot of uncomfortable subversion in good comedy. (Americans who don’t know Stewart Lee, because comedy doesn’t travel: acquaint yourself.) This one doesn’t pass the test.
RareSanity
I’ve seen Corey Holcomb more than a few times on various shows, including when he was on Last Comic Standing, and like JC said…he is funny as hell.
HOWEVER, I’ve not seen him do any bits on domestic violence…I wouldn’t find that very funny, especially if he just kept going on and on about it, as it seems he did here. It’s funny to bring up uncomfortable subjects, in order to satirize the ridiculous/irrational aspects of them, I think that this is what he was attempting to do.
Unless he’s going straight “shock comic”, something like this is very different from anything else I’ve seen of his. I seriously think that this may have just been a bit that may have sounded funny to him, but ends up pushing the wrong buttons of some in the audience. I remember saying a couple of times, to myself, that I like the non “in your face” style he had.
Just my opinion, I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
John O
@Omnes Omnibus:
Easy one. We should try to help. And by that I especially mean the family and friends of the abused.
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: Which speech would you ban? Who gets to choose? What happens when people who disagree with you get the power to decide what can and cannot be said? Nah, it is a bad idea. BTW Citizens United is based on the idea that money equals speech, something I happen to think is absurd.
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
– John Milton
Corner Stone
Oh FSM, if you’ve ever loved your poor servant you will divinely get this thread to where it needs to be, post haste.
redheadedfemme
@JC: And why would you think that beating women is an appropriate subject for comedy?
CW in LA
I don’t see how a person declining to pay for a network that airs shit he doesn’t like is controversial.
And while I’ve never paid for Showtime, I gotta say the shit John C. describes does indeed sound pretty damn unlikeable.
amk
@Omnes Omnibus: There are other developed, aka ‘western’, countries that think it’s not a bad idea and they are doing just fine.
BTW, CU happened whether you disagree or not, hallelujah “free speech”.
@John O: You’re just rambling.
lahke
@John O: Not every ogre looks it. Hopefully, more folks know enough to dodge the obvious abusers, but what do you do when you’re already in it? A huge proportion of abusers start when the partner is pregnant, for example. You’re saying that the right thing to do is to walk right then, but that can meant that you not only give up your home, but the health insurance, family support, etc. So the apologies and promises and even therapy solutions start looking acceptable compared to the alternative. My objection to what you are saying is that you have a bright line and anyone who can’t toe it is a loser–there’s no recognition of peoples’ real lives, or their gradual willingness to move away from a big emotional investment.
in edit–whoa, that moved fast. Now I have to catch up.
John O
Just for the record, I think CU will go down in less than 50 years as the Dred Scott decision of our day. Worst one of my lifetime, and one that killed any respect for the SCOTUS I had left.
Just another bunch of insulated, over-educated, isolated pricks without a clue, it seems obvious to me. David Brooks with actual power.
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: Okay, where do you draw your lines? What can and can’t be said? I know CU happened. Many things happen that I don’t think are right. But, back on point, the fact that CU is offered as a free speech decision shows not that free speech is a bad idea but that the idea the money equals speech is fucked up.
Odie Hugh Manatee
OT:
;)
Jess
@John O: Yes, ideally people should be held responsible for their stupid decisions. But in reality, people are vulnerable to brain-washing, learned helplessness, and the paralyzing fear and depression that results from the slow build-up of abuse and manipulation. Abusers who are able to control their victims for years do so by hiding their true nature until their victims are too enmeshed in the relationship to see the dynamic clearly and escape easily. Some people are naturally more resistant to the process of subjugation, but everybody is susceptible to some degree to the destruction of self that happens in such a situation. It can literally make you crazy. Eventually, the victims do need to take responsibility for their choices in order to avoid falling into the clutches of the wrong person again, but they generally need help getting to that point. It’s like recovering from a disease, I suppose.
freelancer
@hamletta:
This times a thousand. The phone-monkey at Comcast is going to maybe leave a note to maybe pass along to maybe someone at CBS corporate who is going to be a poor mailroom sap or thankless intern who is going to ignore it. Contact someone at Showtime directly.
You might want to try this link and select “Other – Not Listed”
http://www.cbs.com/info/user_services/fb_global_form.php
redheadedfemme
@Corner Stone: Well, you could always, you know, STOP READING IT instead of petitioning a nonexistent deity.
John O
@lahke:
I have drawn NO such line! I get that sometimes people look nice and turn out to be serial killers! I’m willing to cough up a few tax dollars to help these (mostly) women out!
I just don’t necessarily think it’s everyone’s goddamn responsibility to make sure everyone else makes good relationship decisions!
Ash Can
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Seriously. I can’t believe that anyone is taking issue with what John is doing.
Splitting Image
I don’t have a subscription to cancel unfortunately, I’m well into my eleventh year of having no cable at all.
I spend my TV allotment of time watching DVDs. Most of this week was spent with Muppets. I have no regrets to report.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryEjm3k6uY0
Omnes Omnibus
@Jess: When I was in law school, I had a real hard time wrapping my head around the “battered woman” defense, the idea that a woman was so beaten down that she could not leave and felt her only option was to kill her abuser while he was asleep or otherwise helpless. Now this would not have stopped me from using the defense on behalf of a client, or course. The thing is, as I became more knowledgeable, I found out that shit that an upper-middle class white guy can’t imagine actually takes place.
John O
@Jess:
Thank you. Well put, and I agree.
NotMax
Premature reincarnation of Andrew Dice Clay?
While canceling the subscription is your right to choose, I think a letter (snail mail, not e-mail) to Showtime (with a copy also sent to your cable provider) would garner more attention and have a greater chance of impact.
Corner Stone
@redheadedfemme: Fuck off moron.
Yutsano
@sfinny: As a recent back surgery
victimrecipient, if the surgeon thinks s/he can repair the damage and restore normal function it’s worth it. The recovery takes a VERY long time though.suzanne
@John O:
Oh goodie, another person who conflates disapproval of the content of one’s speech with elimination of the legal right to utter that speech.
God.
I’m sad that this extreme logic fail happens on our side, too. It’s just so Prejean.
redheadedfemme
@Corner Stone: Oh hey. Struck a nerve did we? (Snicker snicker)
sfinny
@Yutsano: I was thinking of you when I posted. You seem to have benefited from the surgery. I guess the question is is it worth it?
Corner Stone
@redheadedfemme: Don’t you claim to have me pied or some shit? As usual, just a liar.
But really, why don’t you catch a clue train here? Try and keep up dearie.
Waaaambulance
LMAO! What a little pussy, the OP is.
OP, this is a COMEDY special. He’s not actually advocating the beating of fucking women. No one is up in arma when any other comedian say shit like that.In the words of Lisa Lampanelli, “My feeling is, this is a comedy club, if you can’t take a joke, leave”.
MattR
@suzanne: Being a free speech advocate can be broader than just being an ardent supporter of the First Ammendment. It can mean that you oppose non-governmental efforts to censor unpopular opinions, even if that censorship is technically legal.
redheadedfemme
@Corner Stone: There isn’t a pie filter for Opera. (At least, the last I heard.) So since you make about as much sense as Mitt Romney, why don’t you explain whatever the hell you were trying to say?
John O
@suzanne:
*sigh* You’re right, I could’ve put that better. I guess, “Way to go, John,” and praising him for voting with his wallet was insufficient.
I feel like I’m commenting at Pandagon. *duck/cover*
Comedians sometimes piss people off. And those people who are pissed off should do exactly what John did.
It’s really not complicated.
Yutsano
@sfinny: There are actually several steps before surgery. My ortho put it as the final resort if physical therapy and pain control wasn’t successful. But my result was I’m glad I did it. Research the ortho thoroughly before the final decision, you want someone who has a lot of experience and good trackable outcomes. And good luck to your friend, no matter what it’s a tough road ahead.
Arclite
@efgoldman: But, but, but BOOOOBIES!
Oh, and head chopping.
sfinny
@Yutsano: Thanks.
hilzoy
@Ella in New Mexico: Hmm: I only worked in domestic violence for five years, but I think John is right, and I also think it’s great when the people getting annoyed about this stuff aren’t all women. So: thanks. ;)
Corner Stone
@redheadedfemme: I’ve got a better idea. How about you eat some more lead paint chips and raise your mental abilities a little bit closer to room temp.
dead existentialist
phone-monkey
Gawd, we’ve become a dismissive culture. Before anybody smacks somebody else (wives, husbands, political foes) figuratively or literally, could we all just breathe deeply for a second. I know it’s hot out there, but “we are living in a society.”
freelancer
@John O:
Carlin pissed people off regular. And his argument was that any topic could be made to be funny. Even Rape. I don’t know Holcomb and have never heard his material, but from the sound of it, he sounds like he’s taking the Adam Corolla tactic of not being funny and covering up for it with misogyny and sexism for shock value laughs and claiming that the naysayers “just don’t get it”.
redheadedfemme
@Corner Stone: So you’d rather just throw out meaningless, childish insults than engage in an actual conversation. Gotcha.
Obviously you didn’t say anything intelligent, since you can’t even explain it.
freelancer
@dead existentialist:
I say that as a guy you might talk to when you call customer service.
Perhaps I should have included that disclaimer.
John O
@freelancer:
Never heard of the guy until tonight; don’t care about him, doesn’t sound like I would think he was funny. But I may if I bothered, and I might still think he’s an ass. I’m hard to offend.
Carlin, however, was IMHO a genius.
Corner Stone
@redheadedfemme: You’re really on a roll, Sweetie.
MattMinus
ZOMGZ! When did comedy become transgressive?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?
dead existentialist
@freelancer: I thought it was rather strange coming from you since you once lived in the phone answering capital of the universe (-India) and would probably know such monkeys. I’m always grateful to those/you people whom I call and whine to and am thankful that I am not one of them.
This thread has a surly tone. (Or maybe it’s me; this heat needs to go away.)
redheadedfemme
@Corner Stone: Yes, and your point is? I’m still waiting.
Instead of spewing out all this condescending nonsense, you could have explained what you meant by now. (Unless you’ve already forgotten, of course.)
trollhattan
We all have those lines that must not be crossed and I suspect from day to day, they change. I certainly respect JC for recognizing his and having the wherewithal to respond. Having a bride and daughter I might well have the same reaction. Same response? Maybe.
Wanted to nuke HBO during the entire run of Sex In the City. It’s finally killed off while the republic struggles on.
freelancer
@dead existentialist:
My company is better than most at what they call “reducing customer pain points”, but I still have a couple calls everyday where the first thing I hear after introducing myself is “OH THANK GOD! An American!”
The reason this happens and I’m dismissive of our outsourced help is that they obviously could care less about the issue, because the contract company we paid cares about stats like volume, whereas I work direct for the company they are speaking to, and it comes straight down from on high: “Fix the problem, and make the customer into someone they will brag about to their friends, and bend the rules if you have to”. I’m really good at what I do, but interacting with the lower level people we get from the Philippines, it’s hard not to be peeved that they just don’t listen and end up pissing the caller off only to hand them off to me. I know that might sound xenophobic, but I get a sense of what they’re working with, but I know I work for a company that gives me a lot of leeway to make sure Customer Experience is a top priority. So I know when I’m talking to someone that knows what the job is, and I also know when I’m talking to somebody internally that is just a seat-warmer somewhere out there in the world.
FlipYrWhig
This post should have been called “Showtime at the Appalling.”
ShadeTail
@redheadedfemme:
My vote is for “already forgotten”. After all, Corner Stone is incredibly stupid (not to mention an admitted white supremacist, so poking fun at his/her/its stupidity is very much a worthwhile pastime).
T.R. Donoghue
Does Chris Rock know that this guy stole his bit?
Peregrinus
@Omnes Omnibus:
I never had too many problems believing this, mostly because being raised in Puerto Rico domestic abuse was something you heard about repeatedly. I am, for all intents and purposes, a tan white upper class guy, but I remember that really touched me when I first heard about the issue, and it’s one of the reasons that to this day I can’t watch local news – reminds me too much of hearing those cases back home.
The one difference is that I never heard of Puerto Rican comedians thinking that was funny. For something that seemed so incredibly prevalent, the idealized machismo didn’t include it – it almost seemed like it unmanned you to hit a woman, and yet it kept happening. I also think there was a little more understanding and a little more support for women who chose to leave a situation like that, but I unfortunately haven’t lived full-time on the island since I really started getting an understanding of this and related issues.
redheadedfemme
@ShadeTail: Heh. Very true. However, if it won’t explain what it meant, there’s nothing to poke fun at!
(Hey, that’s the entire point of the obfuscation, isn’t it?)
RadioOne
Is stand up even really popular? In the sense that I grew up watching stand up routines obsessively on Comedy Central and HBO for decades. but nobody I know has really been interested in stand up comedy for the past ten years. I still like and watch Louis CK and Patton Oswalt’s standup routines. But even people who loved Carrot Top at his peak don’t watch stand up now.
freelancer
@RadioOne:
Yes. It is. There was a stand up boom as far as clubs centered around the art that started in the 80s and retracted in the early to mid 90s, but interest in comedy never really waned. The plural of anecdote is not data.
ruemara
I like comedy, I enjoy watching standup. This guy is an ass and I heartily commend you for taking action. Not sure if it isn’t the ready, fire, aim, sort of action, but if you send your complaint to Showtime, I think it will have more traction.
Raincitygirl
I’m a little tipsy right now after a night out, but I get so DAMN happy when a GUY actually takes this shit seriously. My father was abusive towards my mother, and it took her 15 years of marriage before she managed to get herself and her kids the hell away from him for good. The best chance we have of breaking the cycle is for other men to stand up and get pissed off when someone is making “jokes” like that.
Shalimar
Time to enter Corey in the “Win A Date With Lorena Bobbitt” contest. I hope he wins.
Peanut Butter Blues
John, stop embarrassing yourself. Just turn your hearing aid off.
David Koch
Hey, at least this isn’t has offensive as an Adam Sandler movie.
Seriously, can’t one of Obummer’s Sandler on the kill list?! Even glenn would approve of that one.
karen
I just saw “Mr Universe” on Netflix, with Jim Gaffigan and I laughed so hard that I nearly peed. It’s been so long since I’ve done that. He’s mostly clean, not blue and he manages to be hilarious anyway. I recommend and I’m glad I no longer have Showtime so I don’t watch this Corey Holcomb.
Q.Q. Moar
“the rest is just another medieval sword and sorcery drama.”
You are out
“Merlin, which my wife watched, is better.”
of your fucking mind.
Scott S.
I’ve got some suspicion that this is about to turn into a very broad problem in the entertainment industries. Computer games and comics have had some serious issues with demented sexism and racism, and it’s been hard for anyone to make much headway because the sexists tend to get screamy when called out.
blahblah
It’s not vile bullshit in this case, it’s art.
If someone else said it it would be vile bullshit, so cancel away.
I do honestly believe that comedians are artists and I support their right to say vile bullshit without too much judgement. I will judge the people who laugh at this like crazy, though.
I am a pretty hardcore feminist but I still believe that artists need to be free to make awful art for terrible people.
blahblah
@Scott S.: Awesome way to denounce sexism by calling the, presumably female, offended parties ‘screamy’.
Sounds a little like they’re shrill and bitchy, huh?
Go to a gender studies class some time. I am too impatient to help you.
Scott S.
@blahblah: No, actually, the screamy ones have been the sexist males. Every time someone says, hey, maybe you should try not to presume that only men play video games, you hear a massive, screaming butthurt of sexist guys. Usually this leads to spectacular levels of assholery from the sexist schmucks, but on the bright side, there is at least growing acknowledgement that women are extremely important as creators, characters, and fans, and that sexist mookery needs to be shown the door quickly.
Scott S.
@Scott S.: And the outcry from non-sexist fans, both women and men, is helping drag the gaming and comics industries a bit more onto the right side of things, so I think John has the right idea with cancelling Showtime and telling them why.
Allen
@karen: Agree with you completely about Jim Gaffigan. One of my favorite comedians, and I saw him at the DC Improv about six years ago–before he got so big that a show there sells out in seconds.
But: “I’m glad I no longer have Showtime so I don’t watch this Corey Holcomb.” Wow, I was unaware that paying for a premium channel requires me to watch everything they have on! ;-)
Definitely NOT canceling Showtime. They don’t have Game of Thrones (that would be HBO), but they do have Dexter, which I like a lot, and they have Homeland, easily one of the best shows on TV.
Lori
@khead: Comcast cares about money. Cancel a subscription, they lose money. Tell them why, then they care about what caused them to lose money. Especially if you convince other people to do the same thing.
Ash
@John O: I wonder what John O would feel like if he had a daughter (provided a woman could stand him long enough to procreate), who got into a relationship with a seemingly very nice young man, who all of a sudden started to beat the crap out of her, and she was too scared to tell anyone, lest the guy actually beat the LIFE out of her if he found out.
I’m guessing he would lecture her on how stupid she was.
Robin G.
Am I the only one more upset about Showtime’s description of the stand-up than the stand-up itself?
Lots of stand-up comedians go for shock value. I think this was gross, but in the grand scheme of things there’s so much stuff to be upset about in life that a guy telling vicious jokes to get some attention just doesn’t register. But Showtime calling it a “rib-tickling dose of romantic reality”? No. Cancel based on that description alone. Either they believe it (disgusting) or they falsely labeled to try and get more people to watch (disgusting). Ick.
blahblah
If you’re so goddam fired up about this John then get off your ass and do a little more organizing than this.
You are setting yourself up for failure. Get some outrage going.
I thought you used to be a Republican?
Carl Nyberg
@John O:
Bush v. Gore was transparently awful.
Most of the War on Terror rulings will shame the court, I assume.
Not allowing the father to challenge Obama’s assassination order looks bad.
And protecting military rapists with the Feres Doctrine is also going to look disgusting in hindsight.
Basically, the Supreme Court sucks.
And Roe v. Wade was a shitty ruling. The ruling should have been based on the 13th & 14th Amendments.
quannlace
I was gonna cancel cause I only got it for their original series, (The Big C, Nurse Jackie, etc) and they’re over for the season. Glad I’ve got another reason to show it the door.
gelfling545
@sfinny: I know a few people who’ve had the surgery. They all say it didn’t help. Get second or even third opinions.
Anna
This isn’t harmless. Sexist jokes favor the mental mechanisms that justify violence against women.
Also, it isn’t “transgressive” for the powerful to shit on the powerless, it’s the status quo. It doesn’t make you brave or daring to joke about exploiting the weak, it just makes you an asshole.
300baud
@John O:
You misunderstand the nature of responsibility. It’s not zero sum.
Yesterday I was hanging out by the pool with my nephew and the rest of the fam. He’s 6. Who’s responsible for his safety? Him? His parents? Me? His grandparents?
My answer: we all are. Because we are all harmed if he’s hurt, and we all have power to make things better or worse.
Domestic abusers are the only ones culpable for their abuse. But who’s responsible? Abusers, victims, cops, neighbors, judges, politicians, voters. Everybody. Because it’s our city, our state, our country, our world.
Omnes Omnibus
@300baud: Well said.
300baud
@Anna:
That is very well put. I agree completely on it being the status quo, and that reinforcing exploitation does make you an asshole. But I’m not so comfortable generalizing about topics like that; some comedians are very good at working with material like that in ways that undermines the status quo.
Do you have a link for the actual study? I didn’t see a paper title or author names, but I’d like to read more about how they measured things.
300baud
@blahblah: @blahblah:
Who says the artists shouldn’t be free to do it? I only see people wanting to be equally free to not pay them, to call them out, and to call out the people paying them.
Being an artist gives you the right to create art, not to demand an audience or a paycheck. The freedom of the artist doesn’t trump other people’s freedom of speech, association, or commerce.
Omnes Omnibus
@300baud: I think for sexist jokes to work, the comedian actually has to the one being laughed at. If he tells the “joke” in such a way that it is clear that he (his character) is an asshole and is ultimately the butt of a larger joke, it can work. I also think that this is enormously difficult to do successfully.
InternetDragons
300baud: Here’s the info for you.
If you go here you should be able download the entire article free as a .pdf:
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/25/12/2339
First author: Monica Romero-Sanchez
“Exposure to sexist humor and rape proclivity: The moderator effect of aversiveness ratings”.
Journal of Interpersonal Violence. July 12 2012 issue (vol. 25(12) 2339-2350).
And Ella in New Mexico – I’ve worked with D.V. survivors as long as you have, and I think you maybe need to take a break from the work. It looks like you’ve either gotten jaded/numb or have lost your perspective around the realities of D.V. within the greater social context. I am not saying that to poke at you…it’s tough work, and you have to step away from it sometimes.
MattMinus
Once folks start saying “Why can’t he be like that nice,alabaster Jim Gaffigan?” it starts to sound like a bunch of square old white people that can’t process black room standup.
blahblah
@300baud: Awesome, thanks for your input. You’ll notice I didn’t actually disagree with any of that.
Now put your money where your mouth is and cancel your stuff if you haven’t already, and more importantly post about it on Facebook and start a group and get some real outrage brewing. Otherwise this is stupid.
@Anna: Take it out on the consumers and the providers, not the artists. Because unfortunately it’s not some asshole telling jokes in the office, it’s a professional artist with a reputation for this kind of awful shit.
See: Piss Christ and the Christians
I hate to put this guy in the same league as Andres Serrano, but controversial art is controversial art. Don’t listen to me though, there is a huge amount of debate about stuff like this within the feminist community.
300baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Another way I’ve seen it work is in the taking-it-too-far vein. Start with something mildly sexist, then walk the audience father along by degrees until it’s obviously creepy and wrong. Akin to A Modest Proposal.
I agree that working with sexism, racism, classism, and the like are very hard to do. But I think the results can be incredible when it is done well. Not just incredible in the sense of getting people to laugh. But in the sense of waking people up, getting them to see something that they normally can’t (or won’t) see.
300baud
@InternetDragons:
Thanks for the link. The paper is on its way to my Kindle. I look forward to reading it.
Haydnseek
@karen: Uh, Karen? The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. You can have Showtime, and choose not to watch something you don’t care for on Showtime AT THE SAME TIME! Do I have Showtime? Yes. Do I like everything on it? No. Just like EVERY OTHER CHANNEL ON TELEVISION.
Haydnseek
@MattMinus: No shit. The next time Jim Gaffigan is funny will be the first time.
eyelessgame
One of the most important positive feedback mechanisms for an abuser is validation.
If the abuser is racist, he gets validation when someone tells a racist joke and someone else laughs, and no one has the balls to stand up and say “That’s not funny, that’s racist.”
Because the racist – or abuser – knows their position is “unpopular”, but they deep-down believe that most people agree with them. The racist thinks most white people are really racist. The abusive man thinks most men are abusive.
And the damage potentially done by this kind of humor – and everything depends on context, so of course there’s ways to do it that avoid the damage – is that it provides cover to the abusers out there. They see it on Showtime, they think “See? This is popular enough with enough people – there’s a lot of people like me, doing what I do. Which means what I do is not so bad. It’s acceptable.”
It gives them cover. By standing up and speaking out, you deny them the fantasy of cover.
Good on you, John.
Tim in SF
CANCEL Showtime.
Download everything. That’s what torrent is for.
Seanly
@John O:
John’s not advocating that Showtime can’t air the show or that the comedian can’t say what he wants. John doesn’t want his money going to support it. The comedian, Showtime & John are all exercising their rights fully & freely.
Hypatia's Momma
@freelancer:
It’s nice that George Carlin was able to make light of his own rape but that doesn’t give him the authority to speak for the rest of us.
John M. Burt
Sounds like Corey needs an attitude adjustment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwlm9cxbY_M
Just Some Fuckhead
@Peanut Butter Blues:
lolz
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@MattMinus: Hahahaha, look at her! Her husband just beat her bloody and she’s crying in the corner! Oh wow! That was hilarious, did you see that? Oh damn, he just full on socked her again and knocked out one of her teeth and a few cc’s of blood because her crying annoyed him. Oh man, that is the funny shit.
What, you don’t think that’s funny? Obviously you’re just an old fuddy-duddy who can’t handle the blue stuff.
blahblah
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: What you just showed there is a perfect example of why the jerk on Showtime is an artist and you aren’t.
There are no depths to what you wrote, and granted there aren’t many to his stuff from what I’ve heard, but it is not just a blow-by-blow depiction of physical violence.
His stuff may have very little deeper meaning, but there is something to be gained from it even if it’s just being horrified at what the audience is laughing at.
There is a reflection of a deeper truth is his stuff, I guess, in the same way that there is in Jeff Dunham’s at least. It’s a dim, twisted, awful reflection if you ask me, but it’s something. There is nothing but violence in what you just said.
Everyone should be allowed to pursue art freely. And no, I don’t think it’s funny, I think you’re a shithead for typing that.
Ecks
A thought experiment for the people who say: “it’s comedy, crossing lines is what they do, get over it”:
What if instead of being about women this guys jokes had been about hitting N*ggers, and how it people get all upset when you string them up just a little bit, even if you let them down later.
There is absolutely a line, and it’s basically this: It is ok to send up people who are powerful, annoying, clueless, precious, damaging, self-absorbed, what have you. What isn’t cool is taking the side of the overdogs to beat up on people who are powerless and genuinely victimized.
One of the great things about comedy is that it takes its target down a peg, and that’s generally a great thing, most people can use a dose of that much of the time. But there are some relationships in which a person is so beaten and abused that by piling on all you are doing is siding with the abuser. That’s where it’s not cool any more.
blahblah
I really hope some of you guys caught the last episode of Louie on FX so you can see my point writ large.
Louis CK is obviously a way better comic. In the final scene of the last episode he showed a scene we’ve all heard of and probably some of us have done.
He showed one person try to talk another person into giving them oral sex, but he reversed the gender roles, in my opinion, perfectly. It wasn’t a hot woman cajoling Louie to eat her out, it was a powerful, strong woman who completely dominated Louie. The way the scene was done there was no question that the woman was in charge and the man was passive.
She smashed his head into a car window, breaking it, and nearly snapped his finger to get her way. It was uncomfortable to watch, and not funny at all. It was rape, and way worse than anything on any of the videos that I’ve seen in reading this thread.
But it was done in such a way that it provided clarity and enlightenment to the subject of men begging/forcing women to go down on them after a date. The tables were perfectly turned, and I’m sure a few men watching felt like shit.
At it’s best, that’s what art like this can provide. I will always defend everyone’s ability to make controversial art, because you never know where the gems will come from or how much they will enlighten us.
blahblah
@Ecks: To add on to the above to make it apply more to your points, at least Louie had the sense to reverse the gender roles to make it more palatable.
I don’t know that it is necessary though. Watch the Singing in the Rain scene in A Clockwork Orange and think about it. It made its’ point and crossed way, way over any line you could imagine.
I think that the YouTube videos I watched showed this comic to be not especially talented, and they showed him crossing lines. I don’t think, unless we can ask the man directly, that they necessarily promoted abuse against women any more than A Clockwork Orange did.
I think he was trying to make a point. Like all bad art trying to find his point is difficult.
Caz
Are you also going to call and complain about HBO because of Bill Maher’s vile bullshit? I suspect not. It’s not that this Holcomb guy is a scumbag, it’s just that he’s not YOUR type of scumbag. And you should look in the mirror sometime. You have any idea how much vile bullshit you spew out on a regular basis? You’re no better than any of the scumbags you bitch about. At least this dude was doing it via comedy and not with a sincere tone like you do all the time. You must be drowning in hypocrisy over there.
Caz
And stop acting all holier-than-thou. You have absolutely no respect or class toward anyone that simply disagrees with you. You pull out every name in the book, call for violence against people, and wish painful deaths on people…simply because they disagree with you.
Your arrogant attitude and shitty mouth are far more offensive than any comedian on Showtime.
And instead of thinking up a rationalization or excuse why Bill Maher is different, try realizing for a second that if you agree with someone, you cut them slack all the way, but when you don’t, they are vile scumbags and you wish them a slow, painful death.
This might explain why your date nights involve dogs and cats, lol. They are too dumb to know any better than to be loyal to a hateful bastard like you, lol. Have a nice day! :-)
blahblah
Dude, you’re terrible.
Ecks
@blahblah: The Louis CK bit you describe does not cross the line, because it is not siding with the strong against the badly victimized. It dramatized some of our assumptions about rape in a way that threw them back in our face, so it was siding AGAINST the victimizer. That’s fine.
Hopefully some men got the point, though for a determined bigot any dramatization can always be twisted to their own ends, Fox style (“OMG, look at that domineering bitch, they’ll do taht to us, that’s why you gotta be the man around your woman. That guy was a weak librul getting p*ssy whipped”).
Clockwork Orange was shocking, but again, it wasn’t empathizing with the attacker against a group that is heavily victimized in real life. It’s set up so that you don’t really like Alex, and his ultraviolence seems inexplicable and horrifying.
The line isn’t “thou shalt never portray uncomfortable things”. It’s “when there’s a real world dynamic of one group horrifically abusing another, thou shalt not side with the horrific abuser.”
blahblah
I agree that Alex was not easy to empathize with, but the scene showed the absolute domination of the powerful over the weak. It showed his friends laughing and enjoying themselves.
In the awful comic’s showcase all of them men were laughing too. Is it at least possible that he is highlighting how awful the abuse is by letting us see the abusers for what they are? Idiots laughing about slapping women like a TV set?
And Louis, in his typically female role, agreed to another date, don’t forget, and that was the laugh.
I think a better comic could make some of the same material work on one level for the jerks laughing and on another for the women who would dump them all after they got home. And that would be interesting at least.
Your points are well-made and taken and if this guy was better at what he did I would feel comfortable calling him a sexist. He’s for-sure dancing on a dangerous line for such an awful artist. But I still believe that line can be crossed and produce exceptional, usually heartbreaking, art.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
Y’know Cole, I’m so used to being disgusted by this stuff and having men tell me it’s all in good fun. It’s a pleasure and a relief to run across a guy who gets it, and didn’t even need a woman to point it out to him. It gives me hope.
MacKenna
@JC: I have the impression John Cole is smart enough to know the difference between an Andrew Dice Clay type and Louis C.K.
With Louis, you gasp at the horror of what he says but know perfectly well he’s taking down the douchebags.
With Andrew you just thought “what a douchebag this guy is…”
Ecks
@blahblah: No, I think it is not good to indulge the guys who believe that beating on their woman is ever something that is justified. The fact that there are people who really seriously honestly believe that sometimes the manly proper thing to do is to slap their partner is depressing and should never be even implicitly endorsed, ever.
Maybe he intended the routine to be a send up of these kind of people, I haven’t seen it so I can’t judge. Going purely by Cole’s description, though, it sounds like that wasn’t it. It sounds like he was inviting the audience to empathize with the slappers, not to mock them. I generally don’t think it’s a good idea to tell people who they can and can’t empathise with, but wife beating is one of those places. It’s just bad, and it continues hurting a lot of people really badly in the real world, on an ongoing basis. That overrides a lot of artistic license in my book.
Even if his intentions were good, that still makes this an extremely ill-judged swing and a miss. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but people who make mistakes like this more than once (and don’t recognize them as mistakes) are maybe not the best people to be putting on national TV until they can get their shit sorted out.
blahblah
I need to go and cook dinner, but I don’t disagree with a lot of what you said for the average guy on the street. If you’re making these same jokes in the workplace you deserve to be fired.
But I don’t think there is right or wrong in art, only good and bad art. This is clearly bad art.
You are all welcome to protest but I’m afraid I won’t be joining in. And those that protest and shout inside of the club itself always, always get thrown out for disrupting the artist, even if he is a misogynist. There is no taking a stand, only raising a fuss, because the club owners see it my way.
You’re a lot of fun to talk with, Ecks!
Ecks
@blahblah: Thanks. And yeah, this sort of thing is very frustrating and difficult to fight against. It tends to have no payoff for a long long time, and then all of a sudden attitudes hit a tipping point and nobody could imagine how it would ever have been acceptable to, frinstance, play a banjo in black face. Till then we struggle through. Fight the power ‘n all that.
blahblah
http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/n6xdxv/the-sarah-silverman-program-blackface
Sarah Silverman, on basic cable not Showtime, wears blackface. The whole piece is brilliant and it escalates from white people being disgusted at her for being in blackface, which she misunderstands, to standing in front of a black congregation and singing “Victory is mine”.
When this shit is good it’s subversive and hilarious and deep. When it’s bad it’s awful. But comedy is about a lot more than the words on the surface and I can’t judge this guy without knowing his intent.
Not for misogyny at least. I can judge his comedy and after a couple of minutes watching him perform it’s clear he’s not very good. But being a shitty comedian just doesn’t make you a misogynist any more than Sarah Silverman would have been a racist if that bit had flopped.
We just can’t impose arbitrary rules on art, especially if they are the rules that the rest of society plays by without a second thought.
Ecks
@blahblah: I couldn’t care less if this guy is a misogynist or not, and I wouldn’t dream of imposing arbitrary rules on anyone’s art.
All I’m saying is that there’s a point at which your performance crosses a line from being art and entertainment into something that hurts real people. And at that point it’s not cool.
There are some pretty good guidelines about where that line is (see my posts above), but establishing whether a given performance crosses it often requires a somewhat fine-grained and nuanced decision… Often, as you say, it can come down to execution, and even things like tone of voice.
But in the real world of humans, those things matter. If I tell you that I’m going to kill you, that can be a criminal threat or it can be a joke. The fact that in order to tell them apart we have to look carefully at the situation, the personalities involved, etc, doesn’t mean that it’s too hard to tell, and so we should never prosecute people for making threats.
Social harms are real, but they often occur in nuanced ways, and that means that we have to pay attention to nuance in order to know when to oppose them.
blahblah
Haha, awesome. Well now we’re well into philosophy, I think, about the limits of art and the beginning of obscenity.
I think it’s easiest just to say that art cannot be obscene, but I’m not prepared to go any deeper until I can get a few classes under my belt ;)
I’ll see you in this thread in like 2 years, give or take a semester.
blahblah
Part of the definition of obscenity in the US is that it can’t have artistic value. I would say that’s the difference between Corey’s awful standup, which is art and @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire‘s shitpost which is obscenity.
But I don’t know why, and I don’t see much artistic value in Corey’s standup, but it clearly does have something Baron Jrod’s post doesn’t have. Or maybe I do know why, and it just takes us back through the loop of our discussion to return to here?
More schoolin’ for sure. Done digging now.
blahblah
Ecks gives me a debate boner.
Beezus
Check this out… another rape joke comedian…
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/1026758/comedian%27s_rape_joke_causes_furor/#paragraph5
Beezus
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/1026758/comedian%27s_rape_joke_causes_furor/#paragraph5