Zimmerman trial juror B29 is muddying the waters for those who claimed the proceedings should have never happened in the first place since Zimmerman was clearly justified in shooting Trayvon Martin. B29’s comments reveal her own conflicts about the case, but more importantly, they make plain the fundamental flaw with Florida’s version of “Stand Your Ground” — that it shifts the burden of proof from the living to the dead and leaves jurors who clearly perceive an injustice no remedy under the law to address it.
Via valued commenter Rikyrah, here’s a link to a piece published this week by Joy-Ann Reid, current MSNBC analyst and former Miami Herald reporter, about why she’s avoiding Florida because of the “Stand Your Ground” law. The whole thing is worth reading, but here are a few excerpts:
But right now, I’m giving Florida a rest. I’m not joining a mass boycott, just a personal one. And it’s not because I simply don’t like the outcome of a particular second-degree murder trial… I’m quitting Florida tourism for now, because my conscience won’t let me travel to a state that I love, but where it’s not safe for my sons to walk the streets…
In Florida, and 22 other states with similar laws, but particularly in Florida because of how Stand Your Ground was written, anyone who finds you threatening has a license to shoot you, based solely on the perception in their mind that you were threatening to hurt them. You don’t even have to actually hurt them. As long as a jury of as few as six people believe it was reasonable for them to fear you, they will walk…
Since the law passed, the number of “justifiable homicides” in Florida has tripled, and the number of concealed-carry permits has ballooned to 1.5 million people. That’s one in 17 adults. Police organizations vociferously opposed the law, but their voices were nothing compared with Pistol-Packing Marion [Hammer, NRA lobbyist] and her bottomless pocket full of ideas for laws that make carrying guns less legally risky for gun owners, and more risky for anyone unfortunate enough to freak them out…
That last line demonstrates how a stupid law like SYG cheapens and degrades the quality of life in a very real way. Zimmerman has already rearmed himself, and the state is crawling with paranoid gun-toters who now have even less incentive to allow the cops to handle “suspicious” persons or avoid or deescalate confrontations.
But nothing will change. As Reid notes, the politicians down here are too cowardly to stand up to the NRA, which makes them a lot like the US Congress. The crooked greed-head who purchased the Florida governorship for $77 million in 2010 has refused to call a special session of the wingnut-majority legislature to review SYG, and even if they did, they’d reaffirm it.
It is delivering on its original objective, after all: It is generating profits for gun manufacturers.
[X-posted at Rumproast]
Gex
I think there are two different goals. The profit one, which you note. But also the fact that the system will play this policy out differentially is also part of the goal for some supporters. There’s no question in my mind that this is yet another area of the criminal justice system that will go easier on white people who defend themselves than for black people who defend themselves. The money boys get their win, the base gets their win.
Eric U.
I suspect that the Zimmerman trial will serve to increase the murder rate.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Ah, the Buckeye Firearms Foundation and its fundraising success makes so many Ohioans proud. It’s important to be sure trigger happy murderers have the means to shoot again. It seems the $12K may go to O’Mara, however. I’ll miss the FL Gulf Coast for its fantastic shelling beaches – the warm water makes for prettier pickings. I doubt I’ll wander back there, ever, as I suspect the reigning nuts won’t leave in my lifetime.
Violet
I really think a boycott of Florida would have an effect. People say “it won’t work”, but it could. It would have to involve a significant number of people, include entertainers, athletes and other high profile people, and be sustained. When people talk about boycotting Florida, they say, “People who work in the tourism industry will suffer.” Well, yeah, boycotts cause suffering for some people. The Montgomery bus boycott lasted for over a year and was hard on the protesters as they had to walk or arrange other modes of transportation. The city also lost money. If people are serious about boycotting, it will cause suffering of various kinds.
I really do think that an organized, sustained boycott of Florida by a strong coalition of people who are against the SYG law would have an effect. Large entertainment companies like Disney would definitely not want to be associated with that sort of environment and would end up putting pressure on the Florida government to change things.
Betty Cracker
@Violet: Maybe you’re right. I’d support it, even though it might affect my family’s business. I just despair of ever seeing any law or regulation having anything to do with guns being moved in the direction of sanity. Ever.
Violet
@Betty Cracker: The only way it won’t change is if people are too afraid to speak up about it. Squeaky wheels get the grease and all. If people actually did boycott, for instance, and there were enough of them and it was sustained and advertised and supported by celebrities, you better believe it would change. Companies like Disney, cruise companies, tourism organizations and so forth would NOT be happy about it. They’d put pressure on the state government. But you have to make them sweat first.
Eric U.
I’ve pretty much stayed out of Florida since SYG was put into law. Not sure we would have gone there anyway
flukebucket
As I have already told anybody that would listen to me here in Georgia, if 20 dead first graders and 4 dead school officials at an elementary school in Connecticut won’t get you universal background checks one dead hoodie wearing teenage in Florida ain’t gonna get you shit.
I am beginning to wonder why we even continue to get our blood pressure up about this kind of thing.
NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE!
PIGL
@Betty Cracker: It will happen some places, when Teh Union is dissolved. I don’t any better outcome.
Mnemosyne
@Eric U.:
It won’t increase the murder rate, because all of the killings will be judged “lawful.” So what you’ll see is the death rate zoom up and the murder rate not budge, because all of those shooting/stabbings won’t be classified as murder.
boatboy_srq
Boycotting Florida will do about as much as the SBC’s irregular boycotts of Disney: a couple headlines, and a .0001% variance in attendance which can as easily be attributed to weather events as political ones.
Dunno who remembers this, but about 20 years ago there was an uproar about some gun-toting wingnut in FL’s panhandle who, sick of all the “illegal immigrants” mucking up his little world, went out to a rest area on I-10 and shot up a harmless British couple on holiday. FL’s response? Why, the obvious: armed guards at all FL’s rest areas (they started out as FHP troopers but quickly devolved to Wackenhut rentacops as state budgets got more “difficult”). Nothing to make you feel secure like a gun-and-badge-toting old coot everywhere you go. So SYG there isn’t exactly a surprise.
This is the piece that worries me: for SYG to work, the victim (that is, the person who gets shot) has to be deceased, not merely wounded or frightened off. Something tells me that while FL’s assault rate will drop, its homicide rate will skyrocket. THAT is going to cause more economic damage than any boycott: if Orlando starts looking less safe than Detroit or East Palo Alto, then there’ll be a lot few folks at the Magic Kingdom’s turnstiles.
El Caganer
My only reason for visiting Florida is that my GF moved to Sarasota (which seems like a pretty nice place, but then, I’m an old). I didn’t have any interest in going there even before SYG.
Villago Delenda Est
I’m glad I live in a sane state, where such a law would be laughed out of the legislature if anyone tried to introduce it.
aimai
What everyone else said. But also this: the further problem with SYG and specifically the TM case is that in exculpating Zimmerman Martin and all black youths and their families (because his family was smeared too) and their communities are also smeared, defamed and libeled. Why does this matter? Because an increasing number of proto-paranoids and racists are encouraged to go out and get guns not because they “know” or believe that they will get off if it came to a trial but because they now believe they know that Zimmerman was really in fear for his life, really at risk from this dangerous teen.
There’s a vicious circle here, a spiral downwards. The more they had to defame Martin in the trial, the more hardened certain people become in their attitudes towards the imgainarily dangerous public space, home defense, and self defense. This goes far, far, beyond the mere gun lobby and its interests. They have created a situation in which even wrongful shootings become a cause for greater gun ownership. In the future, if a future TM were himself armed, it would just feed white/legislative/flordians belief that from now on everyone must be armed.
Xenos
@boatboy_srq: Also — a lot of urEopeans travel to Miami and Orlando. Zimmerman and SYG have not been in the news here, but if it becomes well known, watch out.
gene108
Slightly off topic but I think Betty’s art work is awesome!
I hope to see it one day in the Louvre or Met.
Eric U.
@Mnemosyne: the fact that these murders are not counted as murders is why the murder rate going up so much with SYG has not gained any national attention, and most people don’t know that the rate goes up almost 10% in states that implements SYG.
Doesn’t stop me from adding the two numbers together
Ocotillo
I think one of the best ways to change gun laws in this country will be a high profile campaign to legally arm the African American community with concealed weapons. All of a sudden non-gun nut wingnuts might be open to “reasonable” gun laws.
Mandalay
That would be the same Joy Reid who earlier this week defended Anthony Weiner on Laurence O’Donnell by blaming the media for its double standards on morality and marriage? She needs to look at her own attitude about the way Weiner treats women. Fuck her until she manages to go after Weiner for his conduct.
If she never comes down here again it’s too soon.
LittlePig
@boatboy_srq: if Orlando starts looking less safe than Detroit or East Palo Alto, then there’ll be a lot few folks at the Magic Kingdom’s turnstiles.
That’s the thing. If The Mouse decides it wants gun laws, then a real player has come to the table, and suddenly these fine self-protecting citizens have quit preaching and gone to meddling. Should It’s ire be aroused, watch the media pivot on a dime.
dianne
Could B-29 have ignored the jury instructions and voted her conscience even if it meant a hung jury? Do the instructions override the free will of a juror? What is the point of a jury in the first place if they have to follow the judge’s orders no matter how they might feel. Just don’t get it. Maybe some knowledgeble commentor will know.
I won’t be going back to Florida, either. Wouldn’t want to take a chance of someone not liking my looks. The only way for SYG to be equal for everyone is for everone to be required by law to be armed at all times. Can you imagine loaner guns given out at the border along with the orange juice? Or in the glove compartments of the rental cars?
Ronnie Pudding
Should we boycott NYC over stop-and-frisk?
CanadaGoose
Back when I was living in NYC, I’d sometimes have a a bad day and console myself with “Well, at least I’m not in Florida.” That was 30+ years ago and I’ve had no reason to change my opinion.
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: I don’t watch LO’D, so I don’t know if you’re accurately describing Reid’s position. But even if she’s wrong about that, she’s right about this.
Ronnie Pudding
@Mandalay:
Jesus, Mandalay. If you want to criticize her, fine. But the “fuck her” attitude is way too strong.
NotMax
Expecting a bill to be floated rechristening Spring Break to Duck Season any time now.
Yatsuno
@Betty Cracker: Nope. Once someone is wrong they are wrong always. Don’t you know the rules to firebagger Calvinball yet?
AliceBlue
@dianne:
Google “Jury Nullification.” You’ll find a better explanation than I could provide.
scav
@Yatsuno: ‘zactly. No allies but the more perfect of angels, and only those that have proven their perfect conformity on all issues, past, present and future are suitable for their graces.
Omnes Omnibus
@dianne: Jury instructions from a judge tell the jurors what the law is. They define terms and things like that. The jury is supposed to decide what the facts are in the case and then come to a verdict based on those facts and the law as described by the judge. For example, a jury instruction on reasonable doubt sets the standard very high. One must be 95+% sure or thereabouts to convict. If a juror thinks the person did it but is only 75% sure, the juror should vote to acquit.
Jury instructions are not orders to the jurors as to what the end result should be; they are explanations of the law and how it should be applied.
raven
Ok lawyers. I was on a jury 30+ years ago and we ruled in opposition to the law as stated by the judge. I thought THAT was the idea. The law in question was, in our opinion, wrong and we decided that was the case. The jurors may not have known it but they had the power to do what they thought was right.
Villago Delenda Est
Betty’s final sentence sums up what this (and all “2nd Amendment” nonsense) is actually about.
The NRA has always, from its inception, been a marketing arm of the merchants of death.
Villago Delenda Est
@NotMax:
Wabbit Season!
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: Thank you.
I, Floridian
@Violet:
Just ask the Stoli CEO whether he thinks a boycott would work.
(hoping this shows up as a clickable link)
Davis X. Machina
That would be the ideal. The collective imposition of violent atomistic individualism.
The proliferation of concealed-carry and of SYG laws another example of privatizing, via badly trained, un- or lightly supervised and regulated private contractors, something that used to be a monopoly function of the state — in this case, the legitimate use of lethal force.
It’s all of a piece with a hundred other initiatives, all designed to drive home, and institutionalize, the notion that there is no such thing as society. There is no ‘us’ in their world.
mclaren
The first part of your sentence is clearly correct — the FL Stand Your Ground law clearly and provably does shift the burden of proof from the living to the dead, or, to put it more bluntly, from the perpetrator to the victim.
But the second part of your sentence is factually incorrect.
Jurors who clearly perceive an injustice always have a remedy under the law to address it. They can use jury nullification.
Ever since the John Peter Zenger case in 1735, it has been recognized as a matter of law that jurors have the prerogative to judge both the facts and the law. Jurors who perceive an unjust law have the duty to acquit the defendant regardless of the probitive nature of the evidence.
This has always been the most fundamental remedy under the law for American citizens. In fact, jury nullification has played an essential part in huge social movements in recent memory. Prohibition ended in large part because juries systematically practiced nullification to the point where prosecutors by the late 1920s could no longer find twelve jurors who were willing to put a thirteenth citizen in prison for the “crime” of making bathtub gin.
The fact that the ignorant incompetent tax evasion lawyer burnspbesq hasn’t spoken up to cite the Zimmerman case as a perfect example of the need for and practical utility of jury nullification tells us what we already knew — namely, that burnsie has as little knowledge of the law as he has of politics or the military or the rest of the subjects he gibbers about.
Arguably, the solution to two of our biggest current problems in America involves jury nullification. If juries started acquitting all drug defendants regardless of the evidence, the War on Drugs would end tomorrow. And if juries began acquitting accused whistleblowers like Bradley Manning irrespective of the evidence, by nullifying the anti-constitutional laws on which they were accused, America’s slide into a totalitarian police state would grind to a screeching halt.
gian
@LittlePig:
The mouse is the media. ABC. ESPN…
El Caganer
@mclaren: I’m not a lawyer, but I have heard of nullification as far as juries acquitting people. I’ve never heard of it in connection with convicting people; not only does that practice sound like a disaster waiting to happen, any conviction via nullification would certainly be thrown out on appeal.
MaryJane
@Mandalay:
Right. The two issues are exactly the same.
Ms. Reid specifically said she’s boycotting FL because she fears for her sons. Anthony’s sexting isn’t going to kill them.
aimai
I don’t think we can count on foreign tourists making the difference because a whole lot of foreign tourists aren’t coming to the US at all, voluntarily, since customs/immigration have become so brutal and insulting.
If we want to see corporations swing to our side on SYG it will only happen when insurance companies refuse to insure, for example, meetings and trade shows or hotels because of the danger of shootings. And that will only occur if insurance companies take a hit, which they may not under SYG laws as decided. My spouse has to attend trade shows in Florida occasionally. Its the only reason he would ever go there. If it became too expensive or uninsurable for companies to send their workers to FL they would choose a different state and all those exhibition halls and conference centers would go begging. That would have an effect. But I’m not sure that insurance works that way.
mclaren
@El Caganer:
Why? A jury is not obliged to explain why it reached the verdict it did.
The Moar You Know
No offense, Betty, but I used to visit Florida every summer as a child, I occasionally have to go there for work, and I find it, well…vile. Shitty climate and mean, mean people. Over the years, I’ve seen nothing that would change my mind abut that, as far as making it a desirable place to visit, never mind live.
That I can be shot because some asswipe thinks I look scary takes it to a whole different level, though. Next time work sends me there, I plan to refuse and will inform them why.
dianne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t believe much of what GZ said in the police interviews – but I don’t remember if the jury saw what we saw. If they did see him with barely a scratch saying Martin pounded his head on the sidewalk then they were willfully obtuse. Since he never testified, we only have what he said to the police to go by and that alone would have made me go for manslaughter.
His story of what happened just doesn’t add up. I would have hung that jury.
Davis X. Machina
@aimai: In another 20 years, everyone flying into South Florida, or coming south of Okeechobee on the Interstate, will be required to bring one full sandbag in with them anyways.
El Caganer
@mclaren: If the jury verdict contradicted the law, why would an appeals court uphold that verdict? I really, really don’t like the idea of convicting somebody via nullification – don’t you think it would throw the whole presumption of innocence idea right out the window?
Ed Drone
@Villago Delenda Est:
Duck Season!
Ed
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Because an appellate court has the power to say that no reasonable jury could have convicted on the evidence presented.
Also, juries have the ability to ignore the law and acquit, lawyers are not allowed to argue for nullification.
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: None taken, but it’s a big state and very diverse. I believe it’s true that we have more than our share of assholes, possibly due to the transient nature of the population. The climate sucks in the summer, but the rest of the year, it’s nice. In my opinion. That said, I wouldn’t have chosen to live here if I were picking my birthplace from a catalog.I choose to stay because I have ties that keep me here.
Yatsuno
@Ed Drone: AHA!!!
(pronoun trouble)
mclaren
@The Moar You Know:
Instead, just buy a kevlar flak jacket and wear it under your shirt. If you want even more protection, pick up a shirt of chain mail at your local renaissance faire. The mail will protect against knife attacks.
That’s life in Shithole America: to be safe, ya gotta return to the practices of the middle ages…
Svensker
@raven:
That is jury nullification. Whether it should be done or is legal is debatable. Should a jury be able to ignore a law it doesn’t like? In the TM case, I’d personally say yes, but what if it were a bigoted jury ignoring a liberal law? How would you (or I) feel about that?
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
An appellate court that threw our a verdict on the grounds that no reasonable jury could have convicted under the evidence presented itself would be vulnerable to appeal on the grounds that it constitutes a directed verdict after the fact. That’s wholly against the law. Judges can’t tell juries retroactively how to vote. If we start doing that, we might as well just toss the jury out and go with Star Chambers or Stalinist show trials where the prosecutor is also the judge and jury.
Sadly, we’re headed in that direction anyway.
In fact, I give America about ten years before the role of judge, jury and prosecutor gets collapsed into a single person — and I’m willing to bet it will be a political appointee. Instead of a prosecutor, we’ll have a Grand Inquisitor who is not only charged with presenting the evidence, but with rendering a verdict. It’ll greatly streamline America’s “justice” system.
Omnes Omnibus
@dianne: Based on what I know of the facts, I agree that manslaughter was probably appropriate. But you and I know things that probably were not presented to the jury because of evidentiary rules, etc. My problem with what happened is much more related to FL law than it is to this jury.
Yatsuno
@Betty Cracker: Miami is pink. And flat. When I saw what they consider a hill there, I about died laughing. It’s not too atrocious because of the food.
Orlando is Disney and theme parks and that’s it. Otherwise I have zero reason to set foot in your fair state again.
handsmile
@Davis X. Machina:
Well-played, sir! Was thinking much the same thing: in Florida, climate change may accomplish more, and more expeditiously, than progressive campaigns or free market calculations.
The Wikipedia entry, “Jury Nullification in the United States,” is very informative in addressing one theme of this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification_in_the_United_States
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Nevertheless courts work that way. A jury’s vote to convict can be appealed on those grounds. Also, a court can direct a jury to vote not guilty.
mclaren
@Yatsuno:
Before Disneyworld, Orlando used to be a dismal swamp. That’s what 90% of Florida is: swamp with sawgrass. And mosquitoes. And palmetto bugs. AKA flying cockroaches.
Betty Cracker
@mclaren: Stop reading The Blaze.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: To be fair, when a court acquits without a jury verdict, it is generally called a judgment as a matter of law. It normally indicates that the prosecution has failed to present competent evidence of some element of the crime.
WereBear
I moved to Florida as a child, in the mid-1960’s. It truly was a paradise then; miles of untouched beach, and lots of artists and writers who contributed to thriving communities. It was a place on the ends of the earth; and those who lived there were glad of it.
The transformation into armed fortresses full of paranoid gun-nuts and strip malls on a endless loop is shocking. The last time I went down was several years ago on a family emergency. Growing up, I remembered everyone, even in the heat, sat deep in the shaded porches and sipped sweet tea with lots of ice.
Now, the town looked like the set of Omega Man. No one in sight.
Mandalay
@Ronnie Pudding:
I don’t think so. Judge for yourself – here’s the link. If Republicans had taken the same position as Reid then BJ would have been all over them
Reid is guffawing and laughing along with O’Donnell throughout the discussion about Weiner, and Reid had this to say:
Jesus Christ.
Hayes and Wagner were almost as bad, agreeing that it is a bad thing to do if you want to get elected, but rationalizing everything, and failing to condemn Weiner’s behavior directly. Implicitly defending the indefensible.
Thanks goodness at least Pelosi and Maddow have the balls to directly go after Weiner.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, a judge can step in and give a directed verdict of acquittal because it deems the prosecution not to have presented evidence of a crime. Although in practical terms this is more common in civil suits, where the judge occasionally hands down a directed verdict of acquittal or sometimes dismisses the case after hearing the evidence presented by the plaintiff and concluding that there’s not sufficient evidence to support a cause of action.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Go read FRCrimP 29.
mclaren
@WereBear:
There. Fixed that for ya.
Mandalay
@MaryJane:
Ms. Reid thought Weiner’s conduct was a laughing matter, and no big deal. Given that bizarre view, her opinion on anything else is pretty worthless and irrelevant to me, but YMMV.
raven
@Svensker: I’m telling you what the jury I was on did. The prosecutor knew who I was and I ran into him on the street. He asked me how we could have rendered the verdict we did and I asked him how he could have put on such a shitty case. Are you telling me that we should have been prosecuted because of our verdict?
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: I know that. That is what I said. Why are you trying to argue this. Appellate courts can overturn a conviction on the same grounds.
It cannot go the other way. A court cannot direct a jury to convict or take that decision out of the jury’s hands.
mclaren
@Svensker:
As a matter of black-letter law, ever since the defense successfully argued that that the jury should act as judges of the law in the John Peter Zenger case in 1735, the answer is “yes” if we go by legal precedents. There’s a lot of precedent for it.
As for bigoted juries ignoring progressive laws, that’s the flip side of that coin. At a certain point you have to have faith in the average citizen. I do. If the average citizen in America ever becomes so reactionary and so deluded that they start doing things like ruling in favor of giant corporations because they don’t think ordinary people should have the right to sue them for defective products, this country is over with.
Personally, I don’t think that’s going to happen. Read the polls. If anything, the American people have aligned themselves much more with Democratic liberal principles today than when I was a kid. I don’t think we have a lot to fear from the American people. It’s the reactionary billionaires and the cloistered elites in the Beltway who are the problem.
Kay
So this is what I find offensive and an intrusion on my rights. The expansion of this “defending from intruders in the home” idea to “any place” (basically, unless the armed person is trespassing).
I just think if we combine the Castle Doctrine expansion (no duty to retreat, HUGE coverage area) AND millions of people carrying concealed weapons it is just a recipe for cases like Zimmerman, where he believes he has some “right” to essentially patrol any area, and if things go bad and someone resists or objects, well, he’s armed!
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
Trouble is, judges keep trying to do exactly that. Did you hear how long the judge’s instructions to the jury in the Zimmerman case were? 27 pages.
Twenty fucking seven pages!
If I’d been on that jury, first thing I’d have done when deliberations began is, I’d have shitcanned those 27 pages. “This judge is trying to tell us how to vote. He can’t do that. I urge everyone to immediately tear up and thrown in this wastecan those twenty seven pages and render a verdict on the basis of both the facts and the law, as precedent requires.”
It ought to be unconstitutional for a judge to deliver a 27-page-long goddamn laundry list directing the jury how to render a verdict.
mclaren
@Kay:
What’s especially scary about this whole expansion of the “castle” doctrine is that it basically opens a loophole up for legalized murder.
Just figure out when somebody you hate goes walking alone at night, sneak up with a gun, shoot him five times in the head, then bang yourself in the head with a rock and call 911. “He attacked me. I was standing my ground.” Bingo. License to commit murder.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Does the jury know what the law is? Does it know instinctively what “beyond a reasonable doubt” means? Jury instructions tell the jury the law.
The lawyers on both sides of a case spend hours working the JIs out with the judge. It isn’t a judge just telling a jury what to do.
Mandalay
@Kay:
That is exactly what will be tested in the Michael Dunn case in September, where Dunn will be using the SYG defense.
There is no good outcome for that trial. If he is found guilty then Florida lawmakers will claim they are vindicated and nothing needs to change, and if he gets off I think there will (justifiably) be riots.
Svensker
@raven:
No, of course I’m not saying you should have been prosecuted. Read the Wiki on “Jury Nullification”. It’s an interesting legal problem with both benefits and big pitfalls.
But it’s not surprising that someone would decide NOT to go the route of jury nullification, as in the jurors on the TM trial. It’s a scary step.
Yatsuno
@mclaren: I’m just curious: how long SHOULD a jury instruction be? Murder cases are very complex matters and often the instructions include the relevant texts of the law the jury will consider in their deliberations. I’m not saying the Zimmerman instructions were good (they were crap) but the length is not a relevant point.
@Omnes Omnibus: You can yell at me for poking the hornet’s nest later. :P
Svensker
@mclaren:
Really? You can’t imagine a jury of bigoted whites finding against a black person in a jury nullification situation? I can imagine all kinds of times when j.n. could be dangerous.
You, of all people, saying “trust the herd” is pretty weird.
raven
@Svensker: I guess I read “whether it is legal or illegal” to mean if it were illegal we would have broken the law.
Kay
@Mandalay:
I wanted to see more focus on the location aspect, because that’s what’s been gradually expanded. Combine that with concealed weapons, and it’s a disaster, because “we” can’t avoid a George Zimmerman. He’s everywhere.
It matters, a lot, to peoples perceptions of their own safety and liberty if they are NOT armed.
The reason we’re hearing people say again and again “he was just walking!” (Martin) is because (I think) they recognize how BROAD this is, as far as space.
There isn’t a person in this country who would be this upset if Zimmerman had shot Martin when Martin unlawfully entered Zimmerman’s home. It’s that Zimmerman is out in “our” space that makes it an intrusion on us.
Aimai
@Betty Cracker: heh. Indeedy.
ruemara
@Mandalay: It’s amusing, your attitude. Especially considering what you’ve said about Snowden and Assange.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Yup. Rule 29 is a legal judgment of evidence insufficient to sustain a conviction of the charged offense(s).
Well, not without a document titled “waiver of trial by jury” it can’t. But why should we be so pedantic, some ask?
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: Good point about the downside of Dunn’s potential conviction — “nothing to see here; move along.” From what I’ve read about that case, I’ll be astonished if Dunn gets off. If he was smarter, he would have called 911 to bolster his “I was in fear of my life” claim. But instead he went back to his hotel and ordered a pizza.
@Kay: Exactly. The NRA sold SYG as a remedy for a disease that didn’t really exist: It’s not like innocent homeowners were being thrown in the clink right and left for shooting home invaders.
liberal
@Kay:
I argued somewhere that handguns ought to be banned—only long guns allowed, and not concealed. That way I’ll be able to steer clear of any nutjobs who think they need to carry.
A gun nutjob replied “How would I carry a carbine on a date?” and “What about when I’m hunting and a wild pig charges me—a long gun takes too long to point in that situation.”
Jesus, these people are f*cking sick.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Yatsuno: Hell, I’ll yell at you now. : – )
Actually 27 pages really isn’t that many. I’ve tried misdemeanors with 20+. Granted, multiple counts, but still. And, jurors are sworn for a reason – to apply the law as contained in the jury instructions.
liberal
@Betty Cracker:
A disease exists, but it was labeled wrong: it should be “greedy gun and ammo makers aren’t satisfied with current revenue levels.”
Ted & Hellen
Bitter Betty Boop’s patented dishonesty on display again.
SYG was very much NOT a part of the defense team’s strategy.
The words “stand his ground” were used once in 27 pages of jury instructions.
People who dissemble and misdirect while writing front page posts are generally not reliable sources of information.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): With a jury waiver, the defendant puts the case in the judge’s hands. A judge does not take it from a jury. Two can play at pedantry.
Ted & Hellen
@Eric U.:
That’s some powerful boycott you got going there.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I think I responded so strongly to the dual argument many AA people were using (including Obama) because I was partway there anyway. It’s a burden to me to have armed (random) people “protecting” me. I don’t want it and I didn’t ask for it.
When AA said “well, we have two burdens, we have profiling, which affects us every day, 24/7, and now we have this possible deadly encounter that is “justified” just as part of normal life”, I completely get that. It limits their freedom, their peace of mind, their right to just “be” in the world, and sure CRIME (in general) does that too, but this is”justified!” It’s legal, even encouraged!
That’s damn hard to take.
Ted & Hellen
@Omnes Omnibus:
Bingo. Exactly. This.
Davis X. Machina
@liberal: We ran that as a debate case, ban everything under 26″ total length — the present minimum length for shotguns — and 100 years in age that isn’t single shot and muzzle loaded, and removable stocks. Legalize shotguns down to 22″, on the grounds that they’re just the ticket for real home defense.
Won a lot of cases with it… loved watching the neg. trying to come up with a public-policy justification for handguns in the first place.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: My pedantry was actually not aimed at you, but was shop snark at the comment to which you were responding.
Hell, I think I confused myself with that sentence – I hope you can excavate the idea. Time for lunch. How you doing on commas? I’ve got a surfeit at the moment.
Omnes Omnibus
I am trying to cut back. Commas can be fattening
tesslibrarian
We are going on a family-required trip to Disney World next month. It has been in the works for a year, and while we aren’t staying the whole time the rest of my inlaws are, we still have to make an appearance (and be pleasant, the harder part).
I went to see what the rules inside the Disney properties were about concealed weapons; their site simply says “no weapons of any kind,” but I wanted to see what the various gun law sites had to say. HolyFuck. I have never encountered more terrified, jumpy, just genuinely frightened of anything that moves people in my life than on some of these boards–all of which discuss the various ways to sneak both guns and knives into the parks.
I have some real issues with anxiety, but cannot imagine living a life where I was so entirely frightened of everything outside my own door. At the same time they seem to believe their lightweight pistol (hey, man, it’s hot and a long day) and bravado will make all the difference in the world of “thugs.” It doesn’t help that the mere ability to sneak these weapons into the park makes them more paranoid that “an incident” will happen where their weapon will be needed. Lots of bitching about how they don’t care if it is Disney’s private property–they’ll do what they want. Fear leads to irrational thoughts indeed; so glad these jumpy pseudo-men are armed.
geg6
@Mandalay:
Are you for real? Ms. Reid has a perfectly well-founded fear for her child’s life and has decided she’s not going to Florida any more and is not calling in any for others to do the same. And you think some asshole sending his dick pics is a bigger travesty and issue than SYG, the apparently legal murder of a child because he was the wrong color, and the proliferation of guns in the hands of crazy people in this country? Really?
You need to grow up and get a life. Get out of whatever hole you live in and circulate among real humans who live real lives. You obviously haven’t done so in eons.
Ted & Hellen
@Mandalay:
Wow.
When did you start with the panty sniffing? I wouldn’t have expected that.
Are you the new Church Lady in town?
J R in WV
@El Caganer:
Once a jury has acquited a defendant, that’s the end of the case. Prosecutors in the US are not allowed to appeal a jury verdict in an attempt to get a conviction, that’s how the jury system works. Only a jury of your peers can convict you.
Petorado
This played a big part in the Zimmerman case: that a person’s emotions (which an opposing attorney could never be able to disprove) legitimize the use of deadly force against another. When you take away the fact that logic should have caused a different action to have occurred, the jury is left shrugging their shoulders because the law says a person’s feelings, however unreasonable they may have been, are the determining factor for innocence of a violent crime. It’s like legitimizing rape because the victim caused too powerful a sense of desire in the perpetrator.
geg6
@handsmile:
Sadly, that would just wipe out most the best parts of Florida, Miami and south to Key West.
The rest of the vile place will probably still be there, making most other states look good like it always has since at least 2000.
El Caganer
@J R in WV: I know acquittals are final. My concern was with juries nullifying the law in order to convict somebody; I think that would be a really, really bad thing.
Southern Beale
This is why I don’t go to Florida, either. I haven’t been there in 10 years. But it’s not just about all the cray-cray down there, it really is NOT a safe place, not for anyone. Especially not for people of color (and I’m white), but anyone can say they found you threatening and if there aren’t any witnesses and you’re dead, well … it’s their word against nobody’s!
Some guy could jump me in a parking lot and if I try to fight him off, he could kill me and claim I attacked him.
It’s so insane. So hell no I’m not going to Florida. If I’m going to live life that dangerously I might as well go to Syria or some place that has some interesting ruins to look at.
geg6
@Mandalay:
Please explain to me why dick pics make Weiner incapable of competently or even successfully fulfilling the duties of mayor of New York. For all the pearl clutching and fainting on couches I’ve seen about this, I still don’t give a shit about it. I didn’t care about it during the Clenis years and I still don’t. If I lived in New York, I wouldn’t give a shit about his dick pics. I’d give more of a shit about whether or not he’s the best candidate to be my mayor. From what I’ve read, there is at least one better candidate, Bill DeBlasio. And if DeBlasio has dick pics, that wouldn’t matter to me either.
Are you twelve or something? Do you seriously think politicians are upstanding moral characters or that they should be some sort of poster persons for such? If so, you’re going to be perpetually disappointed and never have anyone to vote for ever. No one, absolutely no one, goes into politics who isn’t egotistical and blind to their every fault. Personal faults go with the territory. As long as those faults don’t encroach on the public’s business, I don’t give a shit if he or she fucks goats in their spare time.
geg6
@Mandalay:
Why is it such a big deal? Is your name Huma Abedin? If not, it’s not a big deal.
Mnemosyne
@Petorado:
It seems as though Florida has removed the “reasonable person” standard from SYG cases, which is compounding the problem. Would a reasonable person have followed a teenager in his car? Would a reasonable person have decided that he needed to use deadly force?
Once you decide that the verdict should be based on how the defendant claimed he personally felt rather than what you would expect a reasonable person to do, you’re basically allowing people to act out their id with no consequences.
rikyrah
this juror wants someone to cleanse her conscience.
may she burn in hell.
may she hear Trayvon’s screams everytime she closes her eyes.
fuck this heifer talking about how much ‘ pain ‘ she’s in.
and she better keep Trayvon’s Mother’s name out her filthy mouth.
she didn’t even hold out 24 hours..
so, fuck this weak ass bitch.
J R in WV
@El Caganer:
I can’t see how that could happen, really. Not a lawyer, but a favorite jury sitter in my rural county, where they have a hard time putting together 14 jurors who can stay awake for a felony trial.
The whole point of nullification is that the jury rejects the law as used by the prosecutor in bringing the case, so I can’t see how that turns around to convicting.
Pointy-headed lawyer friends, have there ever been cases of jury nullification into conviction of someone who was innocent as a matter of law?
Betty Cracker
@Petorado: Here’s the actual change in the jury instructions as a result of SYG. The pre-SYG version:
Here is what the Zimmerman jury got post-SYG:
Emphasis mine. Anyone who says SYG wasn’t a factor in this verdict is a liar, a fool or both: One of the two jurors who has spoken out about it directly cited SYG as a key factor.
The jury does have to find that the perpetrator “reasonably believed” the use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm, but as the TBT analysis of SYG cases cited in Reid’s piece demonstrates, that can be a pretty easy sell. By removing the duty to retreat, the law has turned what might have been minor scuffles into homicides.
Tone in DC
@rikyrah:
I made the mistake of listening to part of juror B37’s interview with Anderson Cooper this morning on WPFW. It was equal parts revolting and bewildering; suffice to say that a couple of trolls on this blog aren’t the only ones who really need to walk around and interact with actual people, outside of their microscopic comfort zones.
Ted & Hellen
@rikyrah:
Your reasoned perspective is a model for us all.
Orson
You apparently don’t realize that Floridas SYG laws played no role in the Zimmerman trial.
MaryJane
@rikyrah:
Agree. She says the Invisible Sky Daddy will sort it out. No, that was her job. And she failed, miserably.
Betty Cracker
@Orson: You’re wrong.
Mandalay
@geg6: @Ted & Hellen:
The problems are:
– Weiner is sending this stuff unsolicited to women who weren’t expecting it, so anyone arguing that this is solely between him and his wife are wrong.
– Weiner blatantly lied that his online behavior was a thing of the past while he was actively engaged in it.
– Weiner obviously has a very serious compulsion that could prove very damaging if he became mayor.
It’s nothing to do with panty sniffing.
Ted & Hellen
@Mandalay:
You’re wrong.
According to Betty, the above is a reasoned argument.
Ruckus
@geg6:
Normally I’d agree with you about politicians and their sex lives.
But in the Wiener case it seems he was sending dick pics to women whom he did not know. I consider that stepping quite a bit over the line. Now what I consider to be the major problem is that he seems to lack judgement about social limitations. I do ask a politician to at least have reasonable social, financial and criminal judgement. They don’t have to be perfect, as none of us are but I don’t like scrapping the bottom of the barrel either. For example, Bill Clinton was having consensual relations, none of my business, Larry Craig was attempting to have consensual relations, same, AW was sending dick pics to people he didn’t know? Not so much OK.
It’s a line, like Tim Minchin humor.
NonyNony
@Ted & Hellen:
Betty included a link to a well-sourced piece of evidence.
The only thing I see in your post calling Betty out is that you’re an asshole.
But then the preponderance of evidence of that has been available for all of us to see for a while now.
Patricia Kayden
I cannot say that I would boycott Florida since I have family members there (was there in March for a wedding), but I’m glad to see artists supporting Stevie Wonders’ boycott.
I would advise Black men who live in Florida to arm themselves since it’s obviously open season on all “suspicious” Black men (otherwise known as every last one of them).
Patricia Kayden
@MaryJane: Perhaps she felt pressured by the 5 White female jurors and couldn’t take the pressure. I would have stood my ground and hung the jury, but everyone is not that strong. I’m glad she’s speaking out though. And I like that she clearly said that Zimmerman is a murderer and got away with it.
Ruckus
@NonyNony:
Cleeks bakery is wonderful for reducing your blood pressure and lessening the idea that everyone else is an asshole. I highly recommend stopping in for pie for the major assholes. If they ever say anything worthwhile, someone will paste it but otherwise I just don’t have to deal with everyday assholes.
I consider visiting Cleek’s bakery to be boycotting assholes.
Svensker
@Patricia Kayden:
I think she also clearly felt that within the law as it is written she could not find Zimmerman guilty even though she wanted to and thought he was. I would not want to be in that situation. I don’t think the jurors are to blame here — it’s the law and the assholes who wrote that law and passed it.
A Humble Lurker
@Mandalay:
Still not seeing why we should care. The most it tells us is that he’s stupid. I mean, how stupid do you have to be to send dick pics to people when you’re in politics and you have the name Weiner? And to keep doing it after you get caught?
Other than that, why is it even an issue to the point where you want to dismiss what a woman has to say about a situation wherein there are actual dead people because she didn’t take your hobby-horse seriously?
robuzo
I think the irony of the Zimmerman case is that carrying a pistol arguably made him less safe because it made him more bold and more likely to become involved in a violent situation that he was clearly not capable of dealing with. If Martin had been a hardened thug as portrayed by those who put him on trial after his death, Zimmerman never would have been able to pull out his gun once the beatdown started (a beatdown that quite possibly never happened, but let’s go with Zimmerman’s own Swiss-cheeslike story for purposes of argument). Based on his own account, Zimmerman was fortunate not to have A) lost his gun or B) faced a lengthy stretch for manslaughter (saved by what looks like it could have been a jury’s misunderstanding of the judge’s instructions re manslaughter). It might be difficult to persuade people that carrying a pistol doesn’t really make one safer in most instances, but those considering conceal-carry might pause if they also consider that, for example, if the pistol-packer doesn’t manage to get his/her weapon before the adversary’s is draw or before they get clobbered (Zimmerman was lucky not to have been punched by someone who knew how and where to hit), the pistol is pretty much useless, not to mention quite a prize for a mugger. Even cops have their weapons taken from them from time to time. Until the SYG law is rewritten- and in a place like Florida full of deeply fearful people that might be difficult- maybe the best we can hope for is to change some minds through education.
Parrotlover77
It makes me sad that the asshole politics of my home state turn people off to the state as a whole. Florida has so much going for it. I only moved away for work. I would go back in a heartbeat. And it will never change if liberals avoid it. In fact it will only get worse. Liberals need to stop retreating into the liberal havens if we plan to change this country. Move to a southern state, vote, and make a difference.
Ted & Hellen
@NonyNony:
Piss off, douche.
Mjaum
@Ted & Hellen:
I am but a humble lurker, but I have to say this: Reading a thread in which you have inserted yourself is much like trying to eat a baked good in which someone has replaced the raisins with soggy rat-droppings.
Please take this under consideration and take appropriate action.
Ted & Hellen
@Mjaum:
Feel free to tongue bathe my perineum, fool.