Since John is sharing his love for the often maligned and misunderstood pit bull, I thought I’d share my experiences with that harmless breed.
We have a bichon that wouldn’t hurt a fly, has never bitten anyone, and loves to play with other dogs. One of my neighbors likes pit bulls, and his daughter is a friend of my daughter. When that pit was about 2 months old, weighed maybe 25 pounds, and still had its milk teeth, this girl brought the dog over for a visit. It seemed like a happy little pup, and when it first met our dog, they did the usual dog butt sniffing. But a minute or two after they met, that little fucker had our dog on the floor, on its back, by the neck. If I hadn’t seen it happen, I wouldn’t have believed it.
That dog now spends its days in a high walled pen in my neighbor’s back yard. It never goes anywhere, and in the winter when the leaves are off the trees, I can see it pacing back and forth in its cage. You might say my neighbor is a bad dog owner, but this is a neighborhood with a lot of well-socialized dogs that get frequent walks. He realizes that he can’t safely walk that unstable, dangerous-from-birth animal among the rest of the dogs here. I think that makes him a good pit bull owner.
Another neighbor has a pit bull that his kid calls an “am staff”, for “American Staffordshire Terrier”, because “pit bull” has such a terrible connotation that their owners use euphemisms. This dog does get an occasional walk around my neighbor’s yard. I’ve witnessed a few of those joyless occasions, because that dog basically pulls its owner around, who can barely control it. That dog spends most of its life in the neighbor’s house.
That’s just two data points, but it’s telling that a neighborhood where about 1/3 of us are dog owners, only the pits are under house arrest. By the way, both of those owners are macho men. One is a city cop, the other has a huge gun collection and always has a concealed carry gun tucked in his waistband.
Elizabelle
Pit Bulls. Or “Am Staff.”
When your own dick is not big enough.
WayneL
Forget the dogs. Worry about the owners!
Punchy
The usual suspects will be shortly to throw invectives at you, tell you all breeds can rip an adult’s limbs off, and excoriate you for anecdotal data. Feel free to laugh it off.
In 3….2…..1….
killer
Owning a pit is like owning an automatic weapon that can go off at random ties and is self-aiming. I owned a 3/4 pit and 1/4 dingo. She was a protective and playful (very dangerous weapon) dog. These animals require constant vigilance.
killer
Owning a pit is like owning an automatic weapon that can go off at random ties and is self-aiming. I owned a 3/4 pit and 1/4 dingo. She was a protective and playful (very dangerous weapon) dog. These animals require constant vigilance.
Lee
My wife is a veterinarian. This is something she likes to share.
If you had 10 exam rooms each with a dog in it and only had the breed labeled on the door, she would go the Pit Bull room first every time. Every vet she knows would make the same decision.
In addition to her regular clinic she also works some emergency shifts. Given a choice on which case to see she’ll always go to the put bull case.
Elizabelle
And look — I don’t doubt that Cassidy and Suzanne are responsible dog owners, delightful people, and valued commenters. I like them both tremendously and am always interested in their views.
They have dogs that cannot be left alone with small children, and no owner can be present 24/7, no matter how responsible.
My family had a miniature poodle that bit small children. It freelanced, biting a Boy Scout in a park that was just trying to pet it. My sister’s kids abhor poodles. I cannot blame them.
The poodle, however, was not lethal.
Were it a bigger dog, it would have been euthanized. Period. It was smart as a whip, the smartest dog we ever had, and unreliable around small kids.
End of story.
NotMax
This time of year has historically been referred to as the dog days, but this is getting ridiculous.
Linda
My brother’s terrier got attacked by a pit bull and required several stitches. Some breeds have a predisposition to aggression, and need to be owned by people who know what they are doing, and kept away from other animals if they can’t be socialized not to attack. My sis’s American bulldog sees all smaller animals as prey, (loves people, though), and she needs to control her with this in mind.
Elizabelle
@Lee:
That’s great.
Would your wife put smaller client pets in with the pit bulls, behind those doors?
Does she run up to them in parks or on wooded paths, especially if she has smaller animals in tow?
(That makes for a good cardio workout.)
I have known lovable pit bulls, sweet as can be.
I never, ever let them around my smaller (RIP) dogs, because I didn’t want one of my dogs to snap or go after the pit’s food, and have a tragic result. Just from instinct.
brendancalling
This piece is one massive generalization. My parentsowned pitbulls for years. They raised two of their cats from kittens -the dogs, that is-and one of them was large enough that my nephew, when he was a baby, would ride around on the thing like a pony. Can they be aggressive dogs? Yes they are. But they’re also maligned and misunderstood, often due the behavior of that owners,or do the steaks from people that don’t understand the breed.
Keith P.
Well, I’ll add my own data point about pits: I had a blue pit bull that was completely lazy, completely docile, with muscles on top of muscles. He never growled, roamed the house during the day with my 3 cats, never harming them. When I walked him, every dog he passed got him super-excited at the prospect of playing. When he would visit with people who had puppies, he would lie down on his back and let the dogs tug on his ears and legs. When I would bring him to a house with a poodle, they would compete for toys until exhaustion or the poodle would spend the time dry humping my pit. The vet loved my dog both because her assistants had rescued pits, and mine was particularly friendly even in comparison to those.
For those who want to say my dog was a loaded gun, give me a friggin’ break – the dog never even growled. Never around dogs, cats, people, or kids. The *only* problem I ever had with him was that he liked to get in the garbage…a lot.
For all of these second-hand bad pit experiences I read about here, and for every newspaper article claiming a pit bull attack in the headline (only to be revised to be some other breed), they don’t diminish the breed in my eyes because my *first-hand* experience was nothing like that. There are pit lines out there that have had aggression bred out, and mine was from a line of that kind of dog. You say I was lucky the “gun didn’t go off”, and I’ll say that it’s not luck when I chose a dog from a line I knew.
ixnay
All righty. I am a veterinarian (the vast majority of my practice is low-cost spay/neuter). I have watched with alarm the rise in popularity of pit bulls, mostly because of the people who have them. Here’s what I know, as a person who has professional dealings with pit bulls on a very frequent basis:
Pit bulls are total sweethearts … right up until the moment they are not. They have anxiety issues, and can destroy most of a home’s furniture and woodwork faster than you can imagine, if left alone. If that anxiety is triggered for any other reason, the nearest living thing is likely to suffer grievously.
Sensible owners know this. Sensible owners do something to keep this tendency under control. That said, sensible owners are not omniscient, and cannot be counted on to predict/prevent collateral damage, and most owners of “pibbles” (don’t you love the cutesy locution?) do not fall into the category of “sensible.”
Also, to Lee, whose wife is a veterinarian: people who take their pits to veterinarians are likely in the minority of pit owners. Again, I speak as a (female) vet whose main practice is low-cost spay/neuter. Be aware that pits may behave very differently when in the presence of an owner than when on their own.
Athenae
Since we’re doing doggy anecdotes:
A friend had two pit bulls, and pet ferrets. The ferrets would ride around on the dogs like a horsey. It was hysterical.
That being said, large dogs scare me a bit (bad kid experience with a bitey, vicious German Shepherd that attacked my mom) and while I recognize it’s unfair, I inherently don’t trust any pet that is bigger and stronger and taller on its hind legs than you.
A.
ant
I have only had the experience of knowing the two pitts that live next door of my duplex.
One is kind of mutt like, but is obviously at least 80% pitt. She is very sweet. Including to my cat, other people and mostly other dogs. As she got older though, she will get nasty with the other neighbors rotty over toys in the back yard. They must be supervised, and things escalate VERY quickly. They rotty doesn’t start shit, but is perfectly willing to end it. This dog is special in how sweet and cuddly she is.
The other pitt is a “blue”, and is more a “pure breed” type. A younger dog, and has a fuck ton of energy. This one is also very sweet to my cat. She likes to lick other dogs in the face, and just wont stop. The rotty puts up with this with infinite patience. This one has never been aggressive to any of the other dogs as far as growling or biting goes.
Both dogs are very easy to train, and are very in tune with the wants of humans.
They both have had rather expensive histories at the vet. One of them has an inverted whohaw, and gets an infected vajayjay every once in a while. She also just got some tumors that had to be removed. She also has a really sensitive digestive track, and cant eat like most dogs. The other one just got a very nasty injury to her back leg. The vet fears that they may have to amputate if it doesn’t heal properly.
I prefer the Boxer breed myself, but could understand why someone would like the pitt breed.
I would never rescue one however, and I would be very careful about picking a breeder that has the goal of low aggression in their line of pitts. I wonder if such a breeder could even be found.
Anyway, that’s my experience.
NobodySpecial
Someone was talking about Dobermans in the other thread, about how they were portrayed as vicious killers in the ’80s and ’90s and now you hardly hear about them.
That’s because a lot of them moved on to pit bulls, from what I can see.
My anecdote only consists about reading a story about the ferocity of pit bulls and their great strength and how badass they were in dog fights.
I read that story in Latin class senior year, from the original text, written while they still owned half of England. No, I can’t trust a breed known for several hundred years for their specialized fighting skills.
Lee
@Elizabelle:
Yes. 2 of the 3 vets that we socialize with have a rescue pit along with other pets.
@ixnay:
You can say that about almost any dog regardless of breed. Our Aussie is actually more protective when my wife & daughters are around than when it is just me.
cmorenc
@Keith P.:
Two questions:
1) Why did you feel compelled to get a Pit Bull at all, when so many people (with good reason) are terrified of the breed’s potential for spontaneous, unpredictable violence? Oh, of course; you purportedly got one with a “good temperament” bloodline. This still doesn’t answer the question of why you chose *this* breed that scares the Hell out of so many people when they encounter one, or there’s one in their neighborhood, because of all the Pit Bulls out there from “bad” lines?
2) Nevertheless, even giving you the benefit of the doubt for the moment that you’re correct, why should the rest of us trust you on that one if we or our children or pets are in your dog’s vicinity, when there are so many instances of pit bull owners being abruptly proven wrong? If I was a neighbor with small children, I’d resent the Hell out of having to trust you 24/7 that your put bull was both benign and always contained under your control, and that there was no ugly surprise waiting to happen someday.
Michael J.
My chiropractor broke both her wrists in June due to a pit bull attack. Big, big bummer.
http://www.vnews.com/news/7653563-95/saving-the-hands-that-heal
Ramalama
@Lee:
I read this a few times over and still have to ask: what does this mean? That vets would go to the pit bull first to get them out as soon as possible? Or that they are good patients so go to them first? I don’t follow.
Hawes
We have a lab-pit mix rescue. She is very aggressive from a distance, roaring up to people, barking a deep throaty bark.
Then she gets up next to you and turns into a lab and starts licking your hand and wagging her whole body.
Certainly better than the reverse.
ixnay
@Lee:
True enough. It’s just that pits’ jaws are intended to produce major damage.
Also, while your description of “protective” rings true, in many cases “protective” actually means “fear-biter.” Sounds like your Aussie knows that you are in charge.
Betty Cracker
My father hunts wild hogs and used to have a couple of pit bulls as pets and hunting dogs. They were sweet, goofy and lovable pets, but they were bred to aggressively pursue, grab and hold prey and disregard pain in a fight. I can see where these qualities would be unsuitable in a suburban dog park.
In the last couple of threads on this topic, many comparisons were made between pit bulls and guns. There’s a cultural aspect to guns that I think most of us appreciate, wherein going around armed in a forest to hunt or protect yourself from grizzly bears might be perfectly rational while carrying that same firearm around Times Square is a species of terrorism and rightly banned.
We had a dog (boxer) who bit a child once — no stitches were required, but he drew blood and bruised her. On that fact alone, some people might think we had a duty to put him down.
But here’s what happened: A crowd of us were watching a football game, and the dog was lying on his side on the floor. The kids were chasing each other around, and one little girl jumped over the dog and accidentally stomped on his dick when she landed. He instinctively snapped at her.
Luckily, the kid’s dad and all of us were right there when it happened and saw what transpired. The dad is a dog person and didn’t blame the dog or insist that we punish him, let alone put him down.
We had that dog for 12 years, and he was the sweetest creature I’ve ever known. But I’m sure there are some who think he should have been euthanized at age three because of that one incident, which was never repeated. I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance.
PurpleGirl
@NobodySpecial: Doberman pinscher breeders made a conscious decision to breed the dogs smaller and not so heavy. Tim F’s Max puppeh is more of an older style larger animal. My friends’ dog, Hugo, was also an older style large Doberman pinscher.
the Conster
Huskies need to pull, retrievers love to fetch, labs love to swim, collies love to herd and pit bulls love to use their strong jaws to rip tracheas out. Why on earth would anyone want a dog with that particular quality?
J.D. Rhoades
@WayneL:
Forget the dogs. Worry about the owners!
This. Pit Bulls are physically powerful and they realize that. They’re also willful, and energetic. They can be socialized, but you’ve got to be willing to put in the time and the work, and too many owners either don’t realize this or don’t have the time. The comparison to a weapon is apt, but not, I believe, in the way that the poster who used it intended.
Emma
With deference to ixnay who as a vet knows what she’s talking about, I do have a piece of info I got from an English vet. He told me pit bulls are high energy animals and need space — lots of it — to dissipate it. Putting a pit bull in a small suburban yard, to him, was like putting a nervous person in an insane asylum. The odds were not good. He also said they required a strong pack leader to take control.
Years later I experienced that first hand. We lived in an area where the houses looked a bit like shotgun houses — long and narrow, with a small yard in the back and a strip big enough for an exterior corridor running alonside. The next door neighbor decided to get two pit bulls because he was afraid of thieves. Those poor things paced up and down that corridor every blessed hour of the day and sometimes night. The neighbor couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t behave “properly.” It didn’t help that his wife was terrified of them and started screaming if they as much as sniffed at her ankles.
It ended badly. Both animals put down and the wife with stitches on her leg.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Our neighbors have two pit bulls and both look like the stereotypical ‘I can rip your ass to shreds in a heartbeat’ dogs. The dogs live in their back yard surrounded by an electric fence since they kept escaping from the regular chain link fence that surrounds it. The other neighbors don’t care for the dogs, especially when they were getting loose constantly, but everyone is polite to the owners. They have a cat that lives indoors and their dogs are kept away from it at all times. When the dogs come inside (rare, foul weather only), the cat is caged until the dogs are back out. They never walk the dogs or take them anywhere, they just exist in the back yard for the male owner to care for. The woman never interacts with the dogs and the dude is rarely seen out there with them other than to feed them.
I have no idea why they have the dogs because it seems to me that they have lost the use of a nice back yard and couldn’t care less about the dogs (other than keeping them alive). The dogs are well cared for but bored out of their minds.
jharp
The only good pit bull is a dead pit bull.
Fuck every last one of them.
Birthmarker
I only chime in to say, how can anyone monitor any dog and children in their home 24/7? I couldn’t have an animal inside my home that I couldn’t trust while I cleaned, cooked, did laundry, showered, etc. Parents don’t stare at their children all day long. It is impossible.
Linda
@Betty Cracker:
I was bitten by a dog as a five year old, and my parents explained that I had set the dog off, and how not to go that again. Nobody got put down, or scared of dogs. As your family realized, sometimes stuff just happens.
WereBear
That was the “scary dog” of the 1970’s, and for the same reason as pits. A German tax collector bred them to protect him from people who didn’t want to pay taxes. So you can just imagine how good they are at certain things.
I agree that humans are the problem, and there’s a reason paranoid assholes don’t acquire and torment Goldens. But equally bad are the people who acquire a powerful breed with tricky instincts, and act like they have a Golden.
I had a collie/malamute mix who was over a hundred pounds, smart as a whip, and once taught a tiny kitten not to eat his food by gently holding the kitten’s head in his mouth for a few seconds.
He also bit a delivery person who yanked open our screen door and charged into the house in a stupid attempt to “make schedule.” He got nipped on the thigh.
If I had screamed and acted scared, the dog might have done a lot worse. I was cognizant of my dog’s personality and potential, and we discussed with every subsequent delivery person the importance of one of US letting them in to show the dog they were welcome. And they were glad to oblige.
I think the analogy with guns is a good one. We license cars with a great deal of fussiness. Why can’t we do the same thing with guns and dogs?
Yes, it would mean a lot of sweet dogs won’t get adopted. But a lot of sweet dogs would; and cause no further harm.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker:
Betty, in all honesty, this sounds like a straw man (dog) argument. Entirely different circumstances.
greennotGreen
@NobodySpecial: This. Pits and Rotties are both powerful dogs with big, big jaws, and they can be great dogs, but right now the pit bull is the weapon of choice of “macho men” (see the original post,) and that demand is being met by breeders who are either breeding *for* aggression or simply don’t care. Big, powerful dogs need owners who are firm and confident and know what they’re doing, and there simply aren’t enough owners like that to match the profusion of pit bulls.
ANY big dog is a loaded gun, and anyone who leaves a small child unattended around a big dog is taking a risk. Any DOG is a loaded gun; it’s just that my pack of toys are like BB guns and my coonhound is like a blunderbuss.
In a way, the gun rights people are correct. If all gun owners were “responsible,” we’d have very few shootings, accidental or otherwise. But gun owners are human, and most of us are not perfectly responsible, so having a lot of guns in circulation means having a lot of tragic gun-related deaths. The same is true for pit bulls.
At some point, “macho men” will turn to another breed to prop up their masculinity, the demand for pits will decrease and years after that (because the kind of people who are irresponsibly breeding pits now are probably not going to go out and have their stock spayed and neutered) we won’t hear about humans and other animals being chewed up by pits. Maybe the clock will turn back to German Shepherds. A few years later, the GSDs we see will be larger and more unstable after having been bred by puppy mills and “macho men.” Meanwhile, pits, now in the hands of only a few aficionados, will acquire the reputation of the English bulldog.
J.D. Rhoades
@Emma:
He told me pit bulls are high energy animals and need space — lots of it — to dissipate it. Putting a pit bull in a small suburban yard, to him, was like putting a nervous person in an insane asylum. The odds were not good. He also said they required a strong pack leader to take control.
Exactly.
Citizen_X
My domesticated carnivore is sweet and loving. Your domesticated carnivore is a psychotic killer.
I don’t have–heh heh–a dog in this fight. I own neither a domesticated wolf, nor a domesticated nocturnal bird-hunter. But I would like to see some actual numbers showing pit bulls to be inherently more dangerous than other dogs of similar size before I join the calls for pit bull genocide.
greennotGreen
There is a caveat to my comment. Probably one of the reason pits were/are popular in the dog fighting ring is their short hair so the sick, sick fuckers who watch dog fights can see the damage. GSDs won’t take the place of pits in the ring. Totally eliminating dog fighting would help a lot toward the goal of decreasing aggression in large dogs.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@WereBear:
Dafuq?
That delivery guy wouldn’t have a job once I got done with him.
Or the delivery company would be bankrupt.
You just don’t do that. Your dog was absolutely right to react as he did.
J.D. Rhoades
@WereBear:
He also bit a delivery person who yanked open our screen door and charged into the house in a stupid attempt to “make schedule.” He got nipped on the thigh.
Biting strangers who charge into my house uninvited is one of the things I WANT my dog to do.
WereBear
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: We had the man removed from our route; he certainly should have known better.
We had the adjuster for the homeowner’s insurance come by. She came in, met Roscoe, sat down, petted him sensibly, complimented me on his impeccable manners, and asked, “So, where’s the dog who bit?”
Informing her that she was petting him was a very enjoyable moment. We don’t know what she wrote up, but we heard no further from the insurance company, the delivery company, or the police.
I guess my point is that if we’d had a pit bull or a Rotty or a GSD it probably would have gone much worse. That is because a collie is bred to protect and herd sheep and a malamute is bred to protect and pull sleds, so my Roscoe did not have any instincts that said “now rip his throat out.”
And it’s an inescapable fact that some dogs, do.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: Well, maybe. But people have been throwing a lot of absolutes around in the last couple of threads on this topic. My point is simply that individual circumstances require unique responses.
Robert Sneddon
It’s telling that a strong powerful breed of dog like the pit or Stafford terrier isn’t used in police or security guard dog-team roles.
J.D. Rhoades
@greennotGreen:
Probably one of the reason pits were/are popular in the dog fighting ring is their short hair so the sick, sick fuckers who watch dog fights can see the damage.
Not exactly. The short hair leaves less to grab onto and is easier to take care of. This from a friend who’s an animal control officer and a dog breeder (Rottweilers) and who’ll talk your ear off about dogs and the dog-fighting he’s busted. (Fascinating guy. Former cop from Frankfurt, Germany. LOVES to talk).
Robert Sneddon
@J.D. Rhoades: You mean like firemen or EMTs?
Svensker
A cousin does pit rescue. She’s passionate about the dogs and has two of her own, along with numerous cats and a young kid.
Her dogs seem very sweet. That said, I’m afraid of big, strong dogs to a certain extant. Scariest moment of my life was when a German Shepard was stalking me and the hub on a country lane at night. Since our young son was home alone, we decided that we’d let the dog get my husband first while I tried to get to safety, so at least our son would have a mother. It was not a bullshit decision, we really thought it was going to happen. The relief was intense when the very nasty, suspicious farmer came out and called off his dog, grudgingly.
And when I was little I was attacked by a friend’s collie who apparently thought I was doing something to her family (I was getting out of a car). Fortunately, friend’s dad was there and was able to get the dog off me but I ended up with stitches. Don’t know what would have happened if the dad hadn’t been there.
So, yeah, careful around big strong dogs.
JoyceH
@cmorenc:
My question as well. What trait is a pit bull buyer looking for that can’t be found in some other breed that isn’t notorious for unpredictable violence? I can’t help but feel that people who get pit bulls, even the ones who talk about how gentle and well-behaved their dog is, secretly get a kick out of owning a dog that scares people.
I always get a kick out of people’s reaction to my dog, but it’s a positive reaction to a dog who’s ultra-sweet and amazingly beautiful.
Linda
@J.D. Rhoades: One day, a Jehovah’s Witness missionary knocked, but then stepped in my sister’s house through a side door while she was dozing in a chair. Her American Bulldog, who loves everybody, stared at him with every hair on her body standing straight up. He laid a tract on the table and backed out fast. For my money, that’s when Cheri paid for her rescue adoption fee.
shelly
So your neighbor doesn’t walk his dog cause it pulls too hard on the leash. And that makes him a bad dog, under house arrest?
***********
I know John is still grieving hard over the horrific attack on Tunch. But last night he said shoot me and shoot Katie, my loving pit mix. Fuck this shit. Goodbye.
burnspbesq
@Keith P.:
Every breed has outliers.
J.D. Rhoades
@Robert Sneddon:
@J.D. Rhoades: You mean like firemen or EMTs?
No, I mean like burglars or home invaders. See “uninvited” above.
Mudge
Interesting conversation. I have never had a pit bull, nor known any that I am aware, but what I see here from these anecdotes is that pit bulls can be quite nice, but can become quite un-nice without having their dicks stepped on. I see articles in the newspaper about pit bulls attacking the children of a family, but seldom see other breeds so honored. I see above that they require 24/7 observation in certain situations and are often isolated and/or caged. I have yet to see mention of other breeds routinely being treated this way (noting that hunting dogs are often caged, but they are not usually pets and most are pointers or retrievers, not killers. Foxhounds may be an exception.) When I sadly see reports of dog-fighting the dogs are mostly pit bulls.
It seems very reasonable to indict the breed on principle and revel in the stories of individual cuddly pitbulls. Pitbull outliers seem to be the gentle ones. Outliers for most other breeds are the vicious ones.
J.D. Rhoades
I see articles in the newspaper about pit bulls attacking the children of a family, but seldom see other breeds so honored
This says as much if not more about the press’ laziness and willingness to buy into narratives (something that’s been discussed here at length in other contexts) as it does about the breed.
Tokyokie
@PurpleGirl: I’ve read on more than one occasion (and no, I don’t have a link) that Dobermans have the lowest rate of reported biting of humans of any dog breed. Now I assume when they bite an intruder, that goes unreported, but I think it’s an indication that the breed is intelligent and highly trainable, and that their aggression is a conditioned behavior more than an instinct. But I still wouldn’t have one. I have cats, not dogs, thank you very much.
WereBear
Home protection is a completely understandable and admirable reason to have a dog, and even to choose certain breeds. I got the above-mentioned Roscoe from a shelter where he was doomed, even as a sweet puppy, because of his size and appearance.
He was the strongest minded dog I’d ever trained and I adored him and he was an incredible experience. But he could have been a disaster.
If someone adopted him who just wanted to spoil a cute loving doggie they would not have taught him the manners and boundaries he needed. In the absence of a Pack Leader he would have tried to take over and become neurotic and those protective instincts could have turned dangerous.
Best case scenario he would have wound up back at the shelter as “uncontrollable” and they would have killed him. Worst case; it would have been the police who destroyed him.
I made a specialty of adopting the big puppies because no one wanted them. I also got a Newfie/Chow mix who I believe would only have bit anyone accidentally; he would have charged into a burning building to rescue a baby. That was the Newf in him; they were bred to be companions.
Different dog breeds are different; anyone who says otherwise is someone who knows nothing about dogs.
Tim F.
It seems like you buried the lede here. Assholes who know dogs from the teevee prefer pits because it looks tough. Therefore pits bite a lot of people. There are a lot of assholes and poor judges of temperament out there. Don’t think that I am advocating for people to buy pits because I’m not. Three reasons (okay, four) why:
* The asshole sector has the market for pits/staffs just about cornered, so it takes some work and research to find a dog that has been responsibly bred for health and temperament. Look up the AKC breed standard for amstaffs; jerks don’t want that.
* Most rescue pits come from a troubled past, so you should take more care than most pele will to select the tight temperament. The five or six people I know who went that way chose carefully and could jot possibly be happier. However, a lot of the dogs that they didn’t choose were incidents waiting to happen.
* The bigger and stronger the dog the greater the burden on the dog owner to know what he is doing. This is true for shepherds, which tend to get mouthy, dobermans and the irresponsible owners of the lab that put my dad in the hospital.
* Seriously, terriers and small prey animals. I know a lot of pits that live with cats and love them to death (no, not literally), but know your damn animal.
However, someone has to point out the large number of myths and bullshit out there.
* “pits make up 5% of dogs and 50% of attacks”. The pits that make up 5% of dogs are verifiably bred staffordshire etc. The ‘pits’ that make up 50% of attacks are staffordshires plus staff mixes plus dogs that have a short coat and maybe a shortish muzzle plus the large percentage of dogs that get away and only get described in vague terms. I live on a street with a lot of city cops. They tell me when someone gets bit by something with a short coat they usually write ‘pit’ or ‘pit mix’ because, seriously, are you going to call CSI? Rescue shelters do the same thing. Just call it a pit mix and move on.
* They are not unusually aggressive. Again, the AKC standard stipulates just the opposite, and puppies that failed to conform were either not bred or simply drowned. Nowadays every bubba has a litter in his backyard so the whole concept of ‘staffordshire terrier’ is getting fuzzier. Just call them very muscular dogs bred and raised by jerks and I will agree with you: neuter them and keep em away from the general pop.
* In fact the reverse is true: actual staffs (see above) rank near the bottom of canine aggressiveness scores. Security pros won’t train them to defend the house because they are too friendly to strangers. To protect a junkyard you are better off with a golden retriever. To get a mean one you either go to a backyard bubba for a wildly off-standard dog or abuse the one you have, in which case congrats! It now dangerous to you as well.
* The jaws are not unusually strong. They do like to hold on to things, but ripping off parts of the body really is not in the breed’s natural instincts.
* Anecdata. I live in the city surrounded by pits and pit mixes. I love most of them and have not encountered or even heard of any problems. Then again I run with pretty responsible owners. Pencildick tough guys like mistermix’s neighbor seem to live in some other part of town.
my 2c, as always worth exactly what you paid for it.
WereBear
Also, I had friends with an Irish Wolfhound. They were bred to corner wolves and did so with such talent there are no more wolves in Ireland. But they were not bred to kill them.
So they are known for the way they handle home intruders, even without training. They corner a burglar and keep him there until the householders come home. My friends asked many questions of the breeder because they had two small children. They got Maggie without the slightest qualm because they are not even fear-biters.
That’s their genetics, which shape their brains, which shape their behavior.
Linda
@J.D. Rhoades: Did some internets digging around, and in fact lots of breeds bite, but some obviously do a lot more damage when they bite, hence the bad p.r. Like an 18 wheeler flattening a car will get more news ink than a fender bender. FWIW, here’s a list of breeds that insurance companies consider the biggest insurance risks.
Robert Sneddon
@J.D. Rhoades: So when you’re clutching your chest on the bathroom floor or your house is on fire you’ll be sure to invite in the nice men and women who are going to save your life and/or your property because otherwise the dog might get upset and bite someone. Right.
greennotGreen
@Tim F.: You are absolutely right about what “pit” has become – any large, stout short-muzzled dog with short hair. I volunteer for a rescue and have worked with others, and they routinely assign breed names like “Am Staff mix” to dogs when they have no idea. I understand that they want to give potential adopters an idea of what the dog is like, but it’s just a guess.
Gindy51
@Linda: If he had done that at my house, there would have been an arm on the floor. Of course I have 3 watch dogs. They are gentle breeds but their house is verboten to anyone not invited in by the pack leaders (me, husband, and daughter). Any dipshit that invades my home, no matter who they are, is fair game. I can shoot them too, here in IN, so they better watch out.
Most people are smart enough not to go into a house with 400 pounds of dogs on the other side of the door. Mine make noise if anyone so much as drives by let alone walks up and opens anything.
Hazel
Pit bull attacks are much more likely to be fatal/cause serious injury.
http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html
The article links to lots of studies, mostly pubished in medical journals, that show that a majority of all hospital-related dog attacks come from pit bulls (and rottweilers, who seem to be second place in these lists).
So they’re more dangerous because even in incidents like the ones commenters described above, where a dog correctly/understandably reacts with a nip, a pit bull can really do a lot of damage.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker:
And now we see the problem.
This requires WORK. ATTENTION. The use of REASON.
The assembly line approach to these things drives more problems than it creates. This applies not only to dog-human interactions, but human-human interactions as well.
When you have a lot of interactions to manage, you tend to the assembly line approach.
Hence our “justice” system.
SiubhanDuinne
@Betty Cracker:
In countless recent threads on this topic, this one sentence is the single most intelligent comment. Thank you for your snappy common sense, Betty.
Villago Delenda Est
@Tim F.:
Which is, in fact, the allure of the AR-15. It looks BAD.
Tim F.
@greennotGreen: it reminds me of a reporter in 2008 asking Obama whether he considers himself black since he has a white parent. He said that id he robbed a liquor store then the news would describe him as black, so he’s black.
ixnay
Lost the comment, but an important thing to know about ANY dog (in reasonable shape, anyway) is that a half-hour run is only a warm-up to a dog. They have specialized circulation to the brain that prevents cerebral overheating. They are MADE for lots and lots of aerobic exercise.
Our son’s mixed martial arts instructor has, and trains, pits and similar dogs. He has a “mountain scooter” that he apparently uses to exercise his dogs – they pull him, off-road.
JenJen
Good morning everyone,
Just wanted to thank the good people in last night’s threads who sent good wishes to me and Lord Stanley. And I certainly appreciate Cole’s sentiments too; wait until your beloved pet is viciously attacked by a ruthless killer and you’ll feel the same white-hot anger. I’m sorting out my emotions.
It hurts to relive the incident, but here is what happened, best to my recollection because it happened so fast and furiously that my head is still spinning. Yesterday evening, just before sundown, I took Lord Stanley and Rocco, my Australian Shepherd, on our usual long walk through our neighborhood. We were close to home and on the street behind my house when it happened. I didn’t see the animal, because there was an SUV in the driveway that obscured him, but in a flash, as we came around the car, I saw a large white pit bull (I’d never seen him before and I know every dog within six blocks) chained to one of those stakes you put in the yard. He raised his head up and before I knew it, that beast tore at us, pulling the stake out of the yard and dragging it and the chain when he attacked us. Not just my dogs, but me. He leapt at Stanley, literally flew through the air, and landed on his back, with his jaws around Stan’s shoulders. I dropped the leashes and with all my might tried to pull the pit bull (easily an 80-pounder) off my dog when he started shaking and thrashing Stan. I heard a car come to a screeching halt and luckily for me, a man jumped out of it and came to our assistance. He was able to get the pit bull to let go but then he thrashed around and got me but good on the leg and began to pull me, I fell down, the dog let go for a split second, spun around and the man who was helping me kicked him repeatedly in the gut, I think he may have tried to beat him with the yard pole, until he finally ended his attack. At this point Stan is yelping and bleeding horribly when the police show up; neighbors across the street who witnessed the attack but were too terrified to leave the house had called them. One of the officers, an absolute angel if you ask me, scooped up Stan and raced him to the animal hospital thankfully just one exit down from me. Next, an ambulance shows up and it was at this point that the owner decided to come out of her house and grabbed her pit and screamed at the man who kicked him. I’m bleeding from puncture wounds, my Aussie is barking furiously, and my smaller dog is being raced to an animal hospital clinging to life, but this woman is furious at us. She’s yelling at all of us that he’s a good dog and the sweetest boy and had never done anything like this before; the remaining officers ordered the woman back on her porch and went to deal with her while the paramedics tended to me.
I had to go to the ER and get stitches and tetanus shots, I’ve got scratches all over me, and I’m fine, but traumatized. The police then took me to the animal hospital to be with Stan. Stan had to go into surgery to sew up the lacerations he received; the vets told me he was lucky that the pit didn’t get him in the neck or chest (when he first arrived they were concerned he had a punctured or collapsed lung but he was fine), the lacerations are mostly superficial, I think he has a torn muscle of some sort (sorry, my head is still spinning) and these drainage thingies were installed in the puncture wounds to help fight off infection. He’s still at the animal hospital and after I get some sleep I’ll go back to be with him. He should be released tomorrow and I’ll have to do a lot of wound care and some hefty vet bills but he’s going to be fine.
I’m not sure I’m going to be fine.
For all the pit bull defenders out there who I’m certain will say that animal just had a bad owner and should never have been chained in the front yard to begin with and lots of dogs can be aggressive, I agree with you. But I could’ve gotten a JRT or a Scottish Terrier or what have you off my dog and off my leg. I had no chance against that pit bull and had the good Samaritan not jumped out of his car, I think I’d have a dead Lord Stanley at best and at worst, I wouldn’t have survived the attack because once I was down, there is no telling what would have happened to me had I been completely alone. I’m actually shocked and terribly disappointed that none of my neighbors came to my aid, but I can understand that they were terrified, too. There are only a handful of pit bulls and pit mixes in my neighborhood, and I avoid those homes on my walks, the same way Stan and I leave the dog park when a pit shows up. This wasn’t my first scrap with that breed but it was most definitely my most potentially deadly encounter. Defend the breed if you must, but I steer clear of them, keep my dogs away from them, and wish to God I’d have never taken the path I did yesterday and come across that killer.
The animal (a three year old unaltered male) was seized and police tell me he will most certainly be euthanized.
Thanks again for your sweet words in last night’s threads.
JoyfulA
My sister had a purebred Afghan hound who was shown by the breeder and was said to be the biggest of the breed anyone had ever seen. Said hound was laidback and unaggressive, never bit or growled or even looked at any person cross-eyed. His hair was beautiful, and he was very friendly.
Still, this dog was huge, taller than I am when he put his friendly paws on my shoulders to greet me. I am not a dog person, and I do not like being greeted that way. He was much taller than my late partly paralyzed husband in his wheelchair, who understandably felt threatened in this friendly dog’s embrace.
This dog was a fine work of art, seen from 10 feet away, but why would anyone want such a big pet? And now that I’ve read here that any supposedly docile dog can snap, I’m grateful that hound never decided to bite my throat as part of his greeting.
ranchandsyrup
Cole can’t control his pet troll on the blog either. C’est la vie.
the Conster
@JenJen:
Jeebus. Holy shit. I can’t even imagine the horror. Good luck and hugs to you and Lord Stanley.
maya
I have a male pitbull rescue. Hasn’t had balls since he was 6 months old, therefor, no testosterone problems. He is a sweet, playful, fun loving coward. Not a watchdog, rarely barks, and not the brightest dog I’ve ever had either. But he is charming to people and other dogs. The cat terrorizes him sometimes but he would never think of hurting her.
Two summers ago took Buddy down to the river to swim. Met my next door neighbor who also has a female pitbull. The first thing she says to me is, “My dog attacks other dogs.” Well, both dogs were already loose and cavorting about. Buddy worked his charm on the female and it looked like they would be all right, though I did notice that the female was ‘marking’ Buddy by running along his right side looking directly at his throat. Buddy is taller than her. I didn’t like the look of that marking routine.
We weren’t at the river 5 minutes when that dog was on Buddy’s throat. The female pit’s owner was right there and was trying to pull Buddy away from her dog in the water. That wasn’t going to work and it was apparent that this woman doesn’t understand the first thing about the breed she owns – they don’t let go. All she was doing was helping her dog rip my dogs throat. I immediately jumped into the water and grabbed a.hold of her dog’s neck and butt and pushed her down under the water. Buddy went down too but that couldn’t be helped. The female let go of Buddy and he was able to rise to the surface and swim away where he sat in the shallows shaking. I proceeded to waterboard that damn dog just to take the fight out of her. The dog’s owner thought I was trying to drown her and started screeming in my ear to “STOP, STOP STOP!!!
Just to get the noise factor out of my ears and to check on Buddy I turned the dog over to it’s owner’s custody.
Fortunately, Buddy was OK. The female had bitten into his 2” nylon collar that was studded with his metal name tags and the hasp and he does have a strong neck and the whole attack probably didn’t last longer than 30 seconds due to my quick action. There was no broken skin on Buddy and he and I exited the river and were walking away when that dumb bitch, the neighbor, not the dog, let go of here dog’s collar for some inexplicable reason and the dog immediately went after Buddy from behind and bit into the right side of his throat again. That seemed to be the dog’s MO and was the side that she was previously marking up on the road.
I was standing right there when the second attack occured and threw both dogs into the river and dove in after. I then proceeded to water board that dog again and this time the neighbor bitch had the good sense to keep her fucking mouth shut.
Buddy and I then just left. I was in shock myself because in the 35 years I have been taking my dogs to the river I have never so much as witnessed a dog attacking another dog. I waited a few days expecting my neighbor to call with at least an inquiry as to how I and my dog were doing. I banged up my knees pretty good on the rocks during the melee but didn’t notice that till the next AM when my knees swelled up and I had difficulty walking for several; days. Buddy was traumatized. He didn’t eat for two days. He never had a dog go after him like that before. He always liked playing with other dogs.
My biggest mistake was not notifying the county Animal Control Dept and making a formal complaint about it. Again, I thought my so-called neighbor would do the right thing. She didn’t. She’s just another “It’s all about me girl.” gen Xer.
Buddy and I were lucky that the incident happened in the water. If she had attacked him up on dry land I would have probably had to get a rock and bash that fucking dog’s skull in. A prospect I wouldn’t have relished.
So, yeah, owners of pitbulls are the real problem and you can’t say that enough.
ranchandsyrup
@JenJen: wow that is horrifying. So sorry.
WereBear
That’s quite a bit over the top, really.
For instance, I’m slow to anger and not violent and don’t have any training (armed forces) or breeding (had a mostly happy, non-abusive home growing up) that would lead to trouble.
Yet, put me in a bad situation and I could be convinced, in scary short order, to do a lot of violence to someone. All you have to do is convince me some part of my life is at stake.
I love the big dogs; this is why I adopted so many of them. They have incredible personalities and I was careful to choose mixes whose breeds I felt familiar with, and was confident of my ability to handle.
Large dogs make many people uncomfortable. For that matter, my cats, spoiled little love bunnies all, make many people uncomfortable. But that’s you.
It’s not the pet.
So the proper way to think of it is that any dog can “turn bad” but won’t happen unless you have a owner who doesn’t understand what they are dealing with. Which is, sadly, way too many of them.
Violet
@JenJen: Oh, my goodness, JenJen. How very scary. So glad you are all relatively okay and that Stanley came through his surgery. Sending lots of healing thoughts your way.
MomSense
I acknowledge fully that I am not objective about this because a pit bull almost killed my previous lab. He survived the attack after 3 men and a police officer pulled, and maced the pit bull off of him. The police officer even rushed our dog to the vet who brought him in for emergency surgery. Our dog never fully recovered but I will tell you that our dog was a hero. I know that he probably saved our children and my niece and nephew.
My sister and her kids were visiting and we had photos taken for the grandparents. After we finished the photos the adults were enjoying coffee and the kids went outside to play on the swingset. My mellow lab all of a sudden went nuts–he was going from door to door–jumped on the sofa to look out the back window and was making the craziest sound I have ever heard. He went to the back door and looked at me like “let me fucking out now” so I opened the door and watched him run out in front of the swingset just as a pitbull (ribs showing) dragging a big chain came into the yard and just attacked our dog. The pit bull went right for his throat. My dog didn’t even bark or do anything aggressive. He just put himself between the pitbull and the kids.
And the pitbull was obviously mistreated. It was kept outside chained up all the time. The owner was a jerk of a guy. Many of us had complained to animal control long before this happened because we were concerned for the dog.
It wasn’t that dog’s fault that he was treated that way but I do not think that dog could have been rescued. I don’t think pitbulls are inherently bad as a breed but I’m not sure we see many examples of that breed in truth anymore. I think there are a lot of wannabe tough guys who get these dogs from disreputable sources and don’t care for them adequately or appropriately.
I love border collies but I would never get one because I don’t have room enough for them to run and do the things they need to do to be a happy and good pet. I have a young son who has friends over and they run around and a border collie would be constantly chasing and nipping. It just isn’t the right breed for us. We need a dog who is mellow, happy with a couple daily walks, likes cats and who is willing to be loved to death by kids. Labs have been perfect for us especially since we live near the ocean and they do love to swim.
I blame people for this but I don’t think that rescuing pitbulls who already have behavior issues makes any sense at all. A breed that is prone to anxiety coming out of anxiety producing circumstances is just too much risk in my opinion. And I think that we should crack down on the “breeders” as well. I also have a problem with some animal shelters who label dogs as “lab mixes” when they are clearly part pit bull. I have known people who have adopted these dogs thinking lab lifestyle and ended up with big problems.
WereBear
I am so glad you were able to get away and for the good news about Stanley.
Thanks for stating the details; such dogs are loaded weapons. And anyone can get one, given away outside the local grocery store.
SiubhanDuinne
@JenJen:
I didn’t see any of this story (and the ensuing multi-thread brouhaha) until I woke up this morning, so have not posted to you until now. I am just horribly sorry you and Lord Stanley had to go through such a horrifying experience, but vastly relieved that he’s pulling through. Please keep us posted. You will continue to be in my thoughts.
And, not to be inappropriate, but these vet bills are going to bring their own pain and suffering. If you need help with them, please let one of the FPs know so we can pass the hat.
Betty Cracker
@JenJen: Jesus, how scary. Glad you and Stan will be okay.
schrodinger's cat
I have no dog in this fight, pit bulls do have that hound of Baskerville, scary quality to them.
MomSense
@JenJen:
I am so sorry. I don’t know what to say except please be very gentle with yourself.
Maude
@SiubhanDuinne:
What you said.
TrishB
@JenJen: I am so sorry for what happened to you and Lord Stanley. If you need ANY assistance from someone in the area, please do not hesitate to contact me at trish b at gmail dot com. I have a 13 year old doggie who is very familiar with all the emergency/24 hour vet services in the Cinci area.
NickT
@ranchandsyrup:
When it comes to feral trolls, I favor the trap, neuter and do not return policy.
greennotGreen
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes, I”m sure the BJ community will step up, but the aggressor dog’s owner should be responsible for all vet and medical bills.
Elizabelle
@JenJen:
Sue the pit bull owner’s ass. Seriously. You’ve got numerous witnesses, including cops. Plus the asshole didn’t come out of her house to help protect you or your pets. She let if happen, or was unaware.
If she’s responsible enough to have homeowner’s insurance, you might get money for Lord Stanley’s vet bills.
So glad Stanley survived, but he’s likely to have dog PTSD after this.
My sympathies. Terrible experience. So glad the motorist intervened.
Mandalay
@ixnay:
On Cole’s earlier thread someone posted persuasively (to me at least) that the problem isn’t pit bulls per se, or any other “bad” breed. Rather, the problem is dogs which have not been neutered.
What is your informed view on that argument?
NickT
@JenJen:
What you’ve described is precisely why I would never have a pit bull, allow a pit bull owner anywhere near my house, or associate with anyone who possessed such a danger to society. I’ve seen far too many accounts of how much damage those creatures can do to children, animals – and even adults on occasion. The pit bull is a dangerous breed – which is precisely what it was engineered to be – and those who refuse to recognize the fact are irresponsible and a danger to society. The breed should be illegal and anyone perpetuating it or making it available to the public should be prosecuted and face a substantial prison term. I am so sorry you had to go through that hideous experience and all my best wishes and thoughts go to you and Lord Stanley.
schrodinger's cat
@JenJen: I hope both you and Lord Stanley have a speedy recovery.
Suzanne
I’ve already defended my dog on these threads and I’m done with that, but I would like to point out that here in Phoenix and southern AZ, pits/crosses are enormously popular. Many, many people own them, and they are commonly seen everywhere one would typically see dogs. I adopted mine from the shelter, and when I got her, probably 3/4 of the large-breed dogs there were pits/crosses. That’s a lot of dogs to euthanize. Also, we do not have more per capita dog bite incidents/fatalities in this part of the country than the average, AFAIK, despite pits being very popular out here.
Dick Woodcock
Over the last 5 years, we’ve owned a Golden Retreiver and a Pit/Boxer mix. Guess which one we had to have put down because it bit my kid in the face twice?
Yup, the Retreiver was the aggresive dog. We still own the Boxer/Pit.
I firmly beleive with pits, it is all about the dog’s lineage.
These assholes who fight dogs, always pick the most aggresive ones to breed & fight. I would never knowingly adopt a former fighting dog, or any kin of one. They are the ones who you have to be afraid of snapping at any moment, as aggresion is bred into them. Not every pit has that ultra aggression in their genes.
If you do own one of these dogs, you’d better be the best pet owner ever, and most of the time owners of these dogs are not.
JenJen
@TrishB: Oh, Trish, thank you so much.
@SiubhanDuinne: That is so very sweet. I haven’t seen the bill yet but I imagine it’s going to a few thousand. I have just enough in savings to cover it, but, as GreennotGreen noted, my vet and ER bills should be the responsibility of the owners of that horrific dog, and if necessary I will sue that rotten woman and her husband (who wasn’t home when the attack happened) to within an inch of their lives.
JoyceH
You know, this is the third thread about pit bills in twelve hours, and I haven’t yet seen any info on what happened about John’s sister’s dog. Does anyone know? Is it a touchy subject? Is she keeping the dog and that’s why he’s so angry?
WereBear
That is an excellent idea, and one for which torts were invented.
JoyfulA
@WereBear: But does anybody besides the owner like being greeted by a friendly large dog with its paws on their shoulders?
I’ve had some unusually people-friendly cats who want to be adored by any visitor. One even headed for the door if she heard a knock. If a visitor moves toward the cat to make friends, pet her, or lift her, I smile. Otherwise, I pick up the cat and hug her and keep her away from the visitor. (Yes, the socially forward cats have been female; my only male cat saw visitors as to be avoided and other cats as invaders to be repulsed. I won’t draw any conclusions from my small N.)
Josie
@JenJen:
Thanks for letting us know how you and Lord Stanley are doing. It is good to know that he will be ok, relatively speaking. It must have been so scary to see that happen. You are exactly right that it affects your perspective when your beloved pet is attacked. My grandpuppy, a loveable little pug, was attacked by a pit bull in a dog park, and almost killed. She spent many days at the vet and weeks with drains in the bite marks and months wearing the “cone of shame” while her wounds healed. It took her a longer time to recover emotionally, but she finally did. I have stayed off of the dog threads because I feel so strongly about this, but I had to tell you how much I have been thinking of you and Stanley. I hope things continue to improve for both of you.
Violet
@JoyceH: We the Balloon-Juice commentariat have not been told what John’s sister decided to do with the dog. Don’t really think it’s our business unless one of them decides to make it our business by letting us know. It has to be a very difficult family issue for all of them.
Suzanne
@JenJen: Hugs to you, and I’m so glad to hear that Stanley will be OK. I hope that both of your emotional wounds heal quickly, too, as best they can.
Absolutely sue the owners.
WereBear
An excellent point; I discouraged my dogs even from “goosing” because I know not everyone enjoys such contact.
We should always keep our dogs under control. I once put Roscoe in a “down stay” and got called away… I came back 20 minutes later to find he was still there, wagging his tail. He got a big cooked burger from the fridge for that one!
I knew he was over 100 pounds of focus. It was my responsibility to keep him, and others, safe and comfortable.
Citizen_X
@maya:
And this idiot is letting it loose?
You should have filed charges. Or at least broken that bitch’s nose (the owner’s, not the dog’s).
ETA: Or filed suit.
JPL
@JenJen: You have to be traumatized so take care of yourself.
Two muzzled pit bulls were at the Vet the same time as Miss Moxie once and she jumped into the air, knowing I’d catch her. The vet assistant laughed at her reaction and then said smart dog. At that point I’d realize that I’d have to protect her, because there was no way she was going to protect me.
Ksmiami
@the Conster: as a mi resident I adopted a rescue (but not abused) pure sibe and he gets 4-5 hikes per day and is the goofiest strongest dog I’ve ever loved… But the breed is especially affable with humans and with all the kids in the neighborhood I could never imagine owning a potential aggressive dog. Especially pit bulls
ixnay
@Mandalay:
While hormones are definitely part of the picture, this is by no means the entire story. I have seen plenty of neutered animals who, whether through nature or nurture, are potential (and actual) biters. There is no such thing as a “pleasant” bite experience. When my reaction time slows, or when I become insufficiently skeptical of an owner’s assurance that “Boopsie never REALLY bites,” I will be forced to retire.
Cassidy
Glad I slept in today. Seems I didn’t miss much. Kinda hard to call yourse;f an animal lover when you’re wanting a breed to be eradicated. Ooh, ooh, ooh, we should all email that shelter and tell them we want the Tunch funds used for
genocideforced euthanasia. We using ovens or gas pellets, cuz you know those undesirables gotta go.NickT
@Cassidy:
Good idea. Start with yourself.
Villago Delenda Est
@NickT:
Also, take away their keyboards.
Suzanne
@Ksmiami: I had three pure Sibes. One accidentally killed my mother’s Bichon Frise while they were playing. (My mother and I both saw it happen, there really was no aggressive behavior.) Nevertheless, my dog was never allowed around dogs again and when we found out she had a neuro disorder, I put her down.
Cassidy
@NickT: So I guess you’re in the camp of killing things for the sin of existing?
Percysowner
Admittedly I’ve only had 2 dogs, but my 9.5 pound Rat Terrier MIGHT feel that way, but my daughter’s 11 pound Dachshund/Rat Terrier mix would definitely disagree. Her short little legs go for about a half hour and then she starts to flag. My best friend’s now deceased Greyhound would have disagreed as well. Ten to twenty minutes running around the yard full speed and he was done for the day.
NickT
@Villago Delenda Est:
Maybe we could stage a cage death match between T & H and Cassidy. They can bludgeon each other with their disconnected keyboards.
nancydarling
This blog has become an orgy of name calling and strong, sometimes irrational opinions. I haven’t had time to read all the threads, so this may have been written already.
Here’s the thing. ANY dog is capable of biting—even the lovely Lily, John. The difference is the result. Pits don’t stop at one bite or a nip. My sister’s yard man’s granddaughter was killed by the family pit. Another friend’s 3 Rotties attacked the family friend who was dog-sitting them. They knew her very well.
I have a 90 pound dog. He loves everybody, but I watch him like a hawk. New neighbors have moved in across the road and he loves their kids. The little one is just the right height for face-licking made easy. I had to get out the shock collar again to stop him from crossing the road when he sees them in their yard. The purpose is two-fold. I don’t want him crossing the road and risk getting hit and I don’t want him around those precious kids unsupervised.
I’ve heard all the wonderful stories about pits and pit mixes and I still would not own one. The risk is not worth it. Same with Rottweilers. I boarded my dog in SoCal at a place that also bred Rottweilers. They trained them in German because they said it is a more “commanding” language. My sweet Mijo knows I am the alpha bitch and I speak to him in plain English plus the rarely used shock. Almost always the warning beep is enough to bring him to heel. Now, before all you dog lovers get your knickers in a twist, which is worse?—the occasional shock or getting hit by a car?
Jen-Jen, I am so sorry for the nightmare you and your pups endured. I hope all is well with the three of you.
It is raining here in my part of the Ozarks, which is a good thing. It monkey-wrenches my plans to mow my garden paths though. Yesterday, my daughter made lots of pesto with my abundance of basil. Today, I am making summer squash soup and tomato soup for freezing. Both recipes are from Alice Waters’ “The Art of Simple Food” and they are dynamite.
NickT
@Cassidy:
No, just dangerous animals and slimy troll vermin.
MomSense
@Suzanne:
I just think people should know that it is a pit mix so they can honestly evaluate whether the dog is a good match for them or not.
Elizabelle
@Violet:
I was wondering that too. Have missed a lot of threads.
=========
What motivates me to avoid pits: Fear.
I don’t have dogs now (do walk several neighbors’, for the exercise and canine companionship).
I never wanted to see my smallish (beagle sized) dogs attacked by another dog, and feared that I would not be strong enough to protect them if something like that happened. I don’t know that I could have saved my dog’s eye from the neighbor’s aggressive Lab. (We had a dog attack in my neighborhood.)
This is not to say that I have not petted pit bulls, or that I have never told their owners that they are beautiful dogs, because they frequently are beautiful, well mannered, lovely dogs while their owners are there.
I am afraid of running into a mean pit bull not under his/her owner’s control, or solo. I am afraid of seeing a pet I love, or any animal, maimed or destroyed before my eyes.
That is not unreasonable.
Who wants to have “fear” accompany on a meander through a park or neighborhood?
And the “anecdotes” here show it’s not unfounded.
Cassidy
@NickT: So we should kill all animals then as they are all dangerous under the correct circumstances?
Suzanne
@Percysowner: My pit mix can’t run that long, either. A half hour is about the max. During the summer here, a ten-minute walk is about all she can handle. I have an ex-boyfriend with four pits who has a treadmill to exercise his dogs when it’s too hot.
NickT
@Cassidy:
Nope. Just the dangerous ones and the worthless troll scum. Why, are you getting frightened of your neighbor’s pet hamster? Is poor ickle Cassidy quivering and quaking every time that two pound rodent of mass destruction looks at him funny?
RobNYNY1957
According to the Centers for Disease Control, between 1979 and 1999, pit bull terriers and pit bull mixes were responsible for 32% of human deaths related to dog bites. Rottweilers and rottweiler mixes were responsible for another 18%. So those two breed and their mixes were responsible for half of all deaths caused by dogs in that period.
I apologize for injecting facts.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf
Suzanne
@MomSense: Concur. But two dogs labeled “pit mix” are almost always going to be very different in temperament. There really is nothing like having them tested professionally, and then just getting to know them. Mine is a pit/Lab mix (we think)….pit face but slender Lab body. And she behaves more like the stereotypical Lab. A big, clumsy doofus, with a tail that wags so hard her entire back half shakes. Our vet complimented us on her sweet nature.
Cassidy
@NickT: Are you going to keep avoiding my question? Again, all animals are dangerous under the right circumstances. I’m just trying to gauge how much you’ve thought this through. Clearly, it’s not much and you can be put in the camp of uneducated dumbasses who’ll believe anything someone throws up on FB.
Personally, I don’t fear pit bulls; I never have. If you want to wet your pants every time one looks at you, that’s fine. Carry extra diapers. I also don’t blame others for any mistakes I make as a pet owner.
Elizabelle
@Cassidy:
What is your take on the Burmese pythons in the Everglades?
They are destroying the local ecology, and they don’t belong there. They were introduced through human interference.
Pits did not breed themselves for fighting; humans did that.
But they’re powerful and sometimes unpredictable, and why can’t we express a desire to see fewer of them, particularly in irresponsible hands?
It’s not like there aren’t a zillion other dogs that need homes.
Betty Cracker’s right that it’s insane to talk in absolutes — it’s a dialogue of the deaf — but there is a lot of grey area here.
Moe Gamble
It’s not lineage for dogs any more than it is for humans. Are people of “superior breeding” intrinsically better or more trustworthy than people born in slums? I remember when Nick the Greek said African Americans were better athletes because of slaveholders’ breeding priorities. That’s how ignorant a lot of the comments in this thread sound to me.
So, it’s environment, but the overwhelming majority of humans aren’t suited to creating a proper environment for any dog. They make no effort whatsoever to learn about the animal’s nature. Dogs are just possessions to them, not separate sentient beings with needs.
At this point, I’m with PETA. Virtually no one in America except John Cole and a handful of others should have the right to live with any animal. A dog license should require ten years of training and should cost a hundred thousand dollars.
travis
I’m a pit rescuer and trainer. Any dog can be socialized if you get to them early enough. If you don’t bother to socialize the pet then they may become aggressive to pets or people. A unsocialized german shepherd, husky, or any large breed could kill a small dog. To point to two examples and then condemn an entire breed is stupid and cruel.
Cassidy
Jack Russell Terriers have killed babies. We should put them all down. Rescue mutts have killed people too. We should put them all down. Who wants to volunteer for Rosie and Lily? You never know when they’re gonna snap like the others. TICKING TIME BOMBS! WHY WON’T YOU ALL PROTECT THE CHILDREN!
Suzanne
@Elizabelle: I would be okay with eliminating the pit bull as a breed by spay/neuter and then just having them mate only with other breeds to water the bloodlines out. I am not invested in the breed. I am deeply invested in my dog.
But it will take responsible owners to do that, so I don’t see why we shouldn’t encourage responsible pit bull ownership.
Cassidy
@Elizabelle: Absolutely, there is tons of gray area. My stance is to blame people for what people do. Eradicating a breed of dog for “viciousness” is eradicating the wrong species of animal. I see no issue with regulation and stated as such in the previous threads, but I won’t accept as reasonable the notion that they should all be killed because people here believe the myths and legends of suburbia.
Ahh says fywp
Fuck the ignorant jerks who said breeding dogs for aggression is like talking about Black people in the ante brllum South. Not only are tgese hysterical comments insanely offensive but factually wrong. Genetic variance between dog breeds is far greater than between people from anywhere in the world. Dogs have ‘races’, people don’t. Full stop.
NickT
@Cassidy:
I’ve thought it through enough to know that you are a singularly tedious troll with a small mind, minimal capacity for rational argument – and no sense of decency whatsoever. You’ve got nothing to contribute to this or any other conversation between functioning adults. Now, why don’t you go back to calling the SWAT team on your neighbor’s “dangerous” hamster?
RobNYNY1957
@Cassidy:
The difference is likelihood. See the CDC study above. In terms of killing humans, pit bull terriers and their mixes are by far the most dangerous.
It’s also interesting to note in the CDC study that once a PBT is crossed with another breed, the likelihood that it will kill a human being drops considerably. That seems significant to me.
Suzanne
@Elizabelle: And as I noted up thread, pits/crosses are a huge proportion of the adoptable pet population here. If you want a large-breed dog and you go to a shelter, odds are that your dog will have some pit in there. If people didn’t adopt them, thousands of adoptable dogs would be slaughtered.
Daffodil's Mom
JenJen, I am so sorry you and Stanley had to go through that. And yes, it’s not something either of you will likely forget. Daffodil was a purebred chow puppy abandoned in our neighborhood and when we called the pound assuming someone had lost her, they promised to euthanize her within 24 hours because chows are used as pit bull bait since they’ll hold on till they die. Well, this pup was adorable, and sweet, and the rest is history — we’re sighthound people but she was absolutely the best dog we’ve ever had. That said, training her required infinite patience and it would have been a whole lot easier to turn her mean — and despite the fact that she utterly adored babies, we never allowed her alone with any child, or too many adults. And I do think that’s the crux of it: you have a breed, bred for whatever, and that “whatever” is in there and it’s your responsibility as the owner to do whatever you need to do to keep it from coming out. We did, all responsible dog owners do (dogs correct their pups by nipping their faces, ergo you supervise ALL dogs around small children, etc.), but the real issue is owners who don’t, and they’re the ones to get the currently “macho” breed. They can be neighbors, in which case you pretty much know, or strangers. And that’s the scary part. We now have two large, strong sighthound crosses and there are places my husband won’t walk them because, although the dogs are smaller than ours, their owners are jerks and won’t even try to control them. We used to have that problem with Daff too — dogs would attack her savagely while their owners would watch and not even care: she smiled uncomprehendingly the first two times but after that if we’d let her, she would have killed them. But again, you can’t control anyone else’s dog, only your own. Not sure if you can still get it, but I do recommend pepper spray for anyone in an area where any dogs have owners like that. And, having had a “dangerous” dog who was the most wonderful pet EVAH (with many, many very strong contenders), you know, I’d never willingly get another — too many sweeter, less-risky ones out there who just require fewer precautions and life is just too short.
Elizabelle
@Suzanne:
I bet your dog is a doll. Seriously.
And I agree with the neutering/breed out the aggression.
Fighting is fine among mixed martial fighters, but not as a “go to” response in a dog with an unknown trigger.
I wonder what we would be saying if pit bulls were no larger than pugs. It would be less of a problem, but still a problem.
And let’s not even discuss Presa Canarios.
Betty Cracker
@Moe Gamble: So you’re saying any notion of breed-specific traits in dogs is bogus, and it’s 100% about individual dog training and socialization?
ETA: I urge anyone who is curious about nature, nurture, how dogs interact with humans, etc., to watch “Dogs Decoded,” a NOVA program that is available on Netflix (or was last time I looked). Fascinating program.
Cassidy
@NickT: You’re funny. “Rawr, rawr, raw, blah, blah, blah”, lol. You remind me of all those pants wetting conservatives who think we should kill all the Muslims because some are terrorists. Stupid, simple ideas appeal to you apparently. So, yeah, when you grow up a little bit and can actually discuss this with reason instead of your Facebook memes, let me know.
Robert Sneddon
@JenJen: If you plan to get civil or criminal law involved I heartily recommend you stop posting about the incident and what you think about the other parties involved as what you are saying could well be used to your detriment in front of a judge or jury. It might make you feel better, but…
simple
Can someone explain to me why the pit breed is necessary? If every pit could be made sterile right now, what would be lost other than a breed that is really good at killing things? Anything else the breed does can be done better by another breed. I am not advocating killing every pit, but I certainly don’t see the need to breed any more of them. Anyone that has a pit has a dangerous animal whether they want to admit it or not. Their dog might be the sweetest, mildest dog ever known, but it still has the physical capability to kill. If JRTs grew to the size of pits, I would absolutely be against anyone owning one as a house pet, just like I think a Tiger would make a terrible house pet.
RobNYNY1957
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah. I have a terrier, and the first time he saw a mouse, he tracked it, killed it, and presented it to me as a gift. I’m sure that’s because I trained him by rubbing his tummy and making him beg for treats.
Suzanne
@Elizabelle: Concur. Fighting is never OK.
My mother’s Chihuahua mix will jump up and bite onto my Luna’s lips and hang there while they play. My dog has never done anything other than look confused. Luna is spayed, and I routinely stick my hand in her mouth to make sure she won’t bite. I figure I’d rather she bite me, if she ever were to bite. All I’ve ever gotten is slobber.
TheronWare
Long live the bully breeds and all of Canis lupus as they are truly gifts from the gods!
Moe Gamble
@Ahh says fywp:
No, dogs don’t have races, and neither do people.
Dogs are all genetically wolves, except for little teeny tiny differences. They all have a prey drive, they all have a different natural dominance level based on their positions in their original litters. They have amazing senses of smell. They all have some herding instinct.
Everything after that is what people have done to each individual dog.
And since people are stupid, lazy, selfish, cruel and just generally untrustworthy, they should not be allowed to have any animals.
Joel
Dogs are not people. Breeds, which are heavily inbred, definitely have associated personalities.
Karen in GA
@JenJen: I’m glad you and Stanley are recovering; I’m so sorry you had to go through that.
And yeah, it’s your fault — you should never have put your dog in the pit bull’s mouth. Of course.
Christ.
kc
Attaboy. Never let it die.
Let’s have 6 or 7 more pit bull FP posts.
Cassidy
So where is the link for the “Tunch Memorial Fund to kill all the animals we denizens of BJ deem not cute and floofy enough”? Because, you know, if you can’t take a cute picture, link to it in a comments section, and make a meme of it for the internet, the animal could be dangerous and deserves to die.
Anyway, shit yeah! Let’s go kill some dogs for the sin of existing. Which one of you is first? Step right up.
Elizabelle
@Suzanne:
Yeah, I saw your earlier comment, and that is a heartbreaking situation.
I guess one could adopt from another source, like a few states over, but how practical is that for most people? (Although it might be a great strategy for a rescue group from out of state with too many non-pit dogs and reliable transportation — do road trip adoption fairs. I think California groups have done that when they’re overrun with (example) Chihuahuas. And yes — they can be biters!!)
Although, you know that your local dogs are not getting a chance. And that a lot of those pit mixes would make fab pets — in the right circumstances.
I am a beagle fan and know that they are euthanized frequently after being abandoned by hunters and/or too prevalent in the local pounds.
Beagles can be noisy, hard to housetrain (some), and some roam, but they rarely end up as Cujos.
WereBear
Actually, dogs are far more like people than you think.
I’ve got genetic tendencies to be picky and precise… my husband has a volcanic, though short-lived, temper. These are both prejudices, and predispositions, based on our gene pool.
Humans are not exempt. Frankly, we are not that special.
NickT
@Cassidy:
You forgot to mention the Holocaust. Why keep the poutrage at 11? Turn that dial up all the way!
Or you could think about how your poisonous nonsense would look to the people who have had children or pets killed or maimed by pit bulls and their hybrid kin. But that would probably take a truckload more commonsense and decency than you’ve ever possessed.
Moe Gamble
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah, I’m saying all dogs are wolves. Yorkies and shih tzus are wolves bred very small. The best herding dogs herd well because of their strong prey drive–they use that to frighten the herded animal back into the herd. The reason they don’t kill the animal is not that they don’t want to, but because of their loyalty and love to the person who trained them.
Dogs literally choose to restrain their own nature out of love and respect and loyalty to specific humans.
John’s Rosie wants to kill Steve as much as any pit bull could ever want to kill Steve, but she never will because Rosie loves John and respects him and chooses to be loyal to him and his love for Steve.
Most humans want to see dogs as little humans or as fashion accessories or signifiers of masculinity. They never take the time to learn about the animal’s nature because they don’t give a damn about its nature or the nature of anything but themselves, so they can never become capable of leading the dog in a direction that will make it a good member of an overcrowded, obnoxious, dangerous human society.
I agree that pit bull breeding should stop, and that it is irresponsible for shelters to pass out pit bulls like candy to any human who thinks he wants one, because 999 out of a thousand humans are not capable of handling a pit bull, and it’s even worse when it comes to a damaged pit bull, which is any pit bull that has managed to get dumped in a shelter.
But all dogs are wolves.
Cassidy
@NickT: WHY DO YOU HATE CHILDREN!? JRT’S HAVE KILLED BABIES! YOU HAVE NO DECENCY. WHY WON’T YOU THINK ABOUT HOW THAT SOUNDS TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD BABIES KILLED BY JRT’S!?
Elizabelle
It’s too pretty here in Northern Virginia. Going out for a long walk in the woods.
Will report back on any mishaps. Expect none.
WereBear
Yes, and all cats are jaguars. But those tendencies can be moderated, depending on what got emphasized.
Maine Coons are incredibly social, because they were ship’s cats from northern climes; long haired and eager to please.
My mother’s Papillon is a charming clown who wouldn’t rip out anyone’s throat; it’s not in him. It got left behind.
Suzanne
We adopted Luna in 2010, at the height of the local foreclosure debacle. The shelters here were literally overrun, to the point of giving the dogs away for free. The shelter told us that pits and Chihuahuas are the two breeds most popular with the (large) local Latino community, and so, when people fell on hard times, those were the breeds looking for homes. My husband and I both grew up with working breeds and we like to run, so we just wanted to bring someone home who would run with us and have that awesome working-dog nature. I was also sick of vacuuming up Sibe undercoat. We had no specific breed in mind. We met Luna and she’s been everything we wanted in a dog. And since we don’t own guns, we don’t mind having a dog that “looks” scary, as long as we know she isn’t.
Moe Gamble
@Joel:
I have five German Shepherds, all rescues. (People from the nearby city dump their dogs “in the wild” out where I live.)
Their personalities are each completely different. One male is so submissive, he rolls over on his back to allow my male cat to dominate him. This dog wasn’t neutered until he was 4 years old.
One dog is calm and watchful. Another is hyper but super intelligent. One is just happy go lucky. All she wants in life is to be petted all day.
Which one represents the breed?
Cassidy
@Moe Gamble: If one could be dangerous we should eradicate the whole breed.
Joel
@WereBear: I’m not disputing that humans have inherited personality traits. I’m sure there are many, although the subject isn’t exactly fleshed out.
My contention is that humans are genetically heterogeneous in a way that dogs are not. If you were to subject people to generations-long sibling-sibling and sibling-parent selective breeding programs, you would have some pretty distinct physical, mental, and emotional characteristics (many of them bad). Just ask the Hapsburgs.
Moe Gamble
@WereBear:
It’s not left behind. Your mother’s dog is a totally contented Papillon living in an environment created by an older woman who was a mother.
In high school I worked for a breeder of Japanese spaniels–little teeny friendly lap dogs like Papillons. She had 40 of them living loose in the house with her. I helped groom them and feed them and clean up after them.
One of them was a great rat killer.
Suzanne
@Cassidy: I concur that it is horrible to expect a breed of mostly innocent creatures to pay for human hubris quite literally with their lives. I expected better from a lot of people who purport to be animal lovers.
different-church-lady
@kc: “Came for the Snowden flame wars, stayed for the pit bull flame wars!”
JR
Any large breed could have been responsible for what happened. A chained and unneutered pit isn’t going to be any different from a chained and unneutered husky, shar pei, doberman, German shepherd, St. Bernard, or Boxer. The reason attacks by those dogs aren’t as common (which was small comfort for me when one mauled me when I was a kid) is because those are generally more expensive breeds, while pits are common shelter animals because of idiot humans who make a lot of them and realize they don’t actually have much of a market.
It’s not the breed’s fault.
We used to have to keep my pit inside because the next-door neighbors had two German Shepherds (ironically named Angel and Noble) who would snarl and lunge at her through the fence, try to dig under it to attack her, and go off anytime anyone walked nearby. They were un-neutered and un-socialized. And my dog was scared to death of walking out our back door for years.
The dog that attacked JenJen needed to be put down. The dog that attacked Tunch probably does as well. My dog (who is currently sleeping at the foot of the bed because my wife is still upstairs) doesn’t, and anyone saying otherwise can go to hell.
Or maybe the AKC, AVMA, ASPCA, National Animal Control Association, American Humane Association, HSUS, the CDC and I have it all wrong.
But let me offer two actual policy proposals other than indiscriminate genocide:
First, let’s impose strict liability for all dog bites, period. If your dog harms a person or another animal, it’s on you, regardless of that dog’s past history and temperament.
Second, let’s actually invest in spay/neuter programs and capacity. The high-end estimate from the Humane Society is that 8 million dogs and cats enter shelters each year. Assuming an average cost for fixing each animal is $75 (which is high: female dogs usually cost around $95 to have fixed, male dogs and cats are much cheaper), that would be $600,000,000/year. Many shelters (including the Humane Society one where I adopted my dog) include spay/neuter costs in their adoption fee and require every animal leaving the shelter to be altered, so they’re already covering their portion of the $600,000,000 (which, again, is a high-end estimate). An additional fee can be imposed on adopters who go to shelters that don’t already include fixing in their fees. For less than half a billion dollars (about the IT budget at the GSA), we can alter every shelter animal–dog and cat alike–in the US, reducing the pet population and burdens on local animal control agencies while providing steady employment for veterinary professionals at the same time.
Yatsuno
@JenJen: OMG dear, I am so sorry you and Lord Stanley’s Tableware are having to go through this. I can only imagine what you and the EARZ!!! are going through. And yes sue the bastards. The fact that you have the money is irrelevant, if not for their callous negligence you wouldn’t have to be spending it in the first place.
Moe Gamble
@Suzanne:
It’s because people are frightened and don’t understand dogs and there are genuine horrors occurring.
We are so cut off from nature the only species we understand is other humans exactly like ourselves.
WereBear
Don’t you see what you did in the space of one paragraph?
We have Hapsburgs. We have Einsteins. All in the same geographic area, all from overlapping gene pools.
The point is that genetics and environment are a seamless interaction. We can have genes that never get activated. We can have environments which neutralize the strongest of genetic tendencies.
Yeah, dogs come from wolves. And we humans came from apes. We can breed serial killers; we combine genetics which suppress empathetic structures in the brain with a coercive environment, and bingo! (It’s essentially unknown in small, close-knit, social structures. It appears in coercive structures. Look up Ed Gein and then talk to me.)
We combine idiot dog owners who don’t train or neuter with predatory dog lines and tragedies ensue.
But it’s not that dogs are different. We’re just lucky, that’s all. What do you think breeds antisocial humans? Antisocial environments.
We are not that different from our pets. Do not flatter yourself.
PhoenixRising
@Elizabelle:
Because all the dogs available in our local pound were pits or mixes, this is exactly what we did. We’re part of the Big Dogs Huge Paws rescue network now; based in Denver, with enough volunteers they can reach throughout the inter-mountain West.
Cudos to Suzanne for her bravery with a pit, but we had an incident eerily similar to JenJen’s description last spring. Rescued pit form the pound pulled up the stake and came for me and the dog I was walking.
When the lady of the house came off the porch, as I was attempting to kick her pit bull to death or until he unlocked his jaws off my 11 year old’s 16 pound poodle mix, she was yelling at me. To stop hurting her dog.
I told her what I tell you all: All dogs bite. Staking or chaining out a dog bred to defend its turf is not negligent, it’s moronic. And when the men from the pound come to take away your little Fluffy, be an adult and recognize that your choice to chain out this breed is what caused his death. Not my call to animal control.
They moved before we got around to suing for the vet bills, but sue the fuckers. You have to. Before their dog kills someone’s pet. This was 100 percent the fault of the idiots who chained out a bully breed.
kc
@JenJen:
Jesus, that’s just awful. I’m so sorry. I wish you and Stanley a speedy recovery.
That other woman sounds like someone who should not own any dog, let alone a pit.
Ted & Hellen
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
The husband is acting out unhealthy psychological issues. Imagine the constant fear/tension/ill ease of living in such an environment as a human. I’d feel sorry for the wife but she enables it, so she’s part of the problem too.
So many freaks.
Botsplainer
I attended some dog rescue event yesterday involving mostly pits, and brought my puppy with me in order to socialize him with large, aggressive dogs who would ostensibly be leashed.
Those pit people are nuts. I struck up a conversation with one woman who dog was straining some on a leash – and he was wearing a choker collar! She was waxing eloquently on how sweet her rescue pit is.
Citizen_X
@different-church-lady: Begun, the Pit Bull wars have.
Ted & Hellen
@Birthmarker:
This also.
Ted & Hellen
@shelly:
It’s hilarious reading all these GBCW to BJ comments from butt hurt killer loving commenters. I enjoy it!
Suzanne
@PhoenixRising: Chaining/staking a pit is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Mine gets a backyard with a 6′ fence made of CMU, with continuous footings. No digging under that shit. Though I will note that when the exterminator comes in the backyard and she’s out there, all she’s ever done is greet him with an overly enthusiastic tail wag.
The dog’s tail is more dangerous than her mouth.
Ted & Hellen
@JenJen:
Glad you’re OK, JenJen.
The Pibble lovers here will now explain how the attack was all just an unfortunate misunderstanding.
lojasmo
Guy down the street has two pits. The elder walks off leash, ahead of the owner, and the owner’s two children. He stops and waits when the family falls too far behind…never looking back, just aware of the situation.
The younger pit is kept on leash, as I don’t believe the owner knows his proclivities as well. I’m pretty sure the younger one is a sweetheart.
I would never own one, as I don’t have time to train it as it should be, and because I’m scared to death of them.
Angela
@JenJen: JenJen – How terrifying, I can’t imagine going through something like that and I have had dogs all of my life.
I’m so sorry this has happened, I’m so glad you and Lord Stanley will be okay.
Thank you for the update, and the details. As you continue to recover, I will be holding you and your dogs in the Light.
lojasmo
@Ted & Hellen:
Says the appologist for child rapists and killers of unarmed teens.
PhoenixRising
@Suzanne: Yeah, it’s dumb. But part of the problem with a no-kill approach to rescue, in a culture that just outlawed cockfighting, is that the pound has to take any home it can get for the two dozen pit mixes a DAY they get in. (My neighbor was the vet for awhile.)
So discerning which people are going to provide an appropriate home for a dog that needs special handling, vs staking him out in the front yard (!) because he’s never caused anyone a problem (!!) and if we’d all stop our little dogs from marking the edge of his sidewalk (!!!) he’d be fine…isn’t work anyone is doing.
Which is why we went to giant breed rescue when we wanted a big dog. I just didn’t have it in me to explain to my child that the new dog had to be in a therapeutic environment designed to keep everyone safe. Tip of the hat to anyone who can, and can we agree that re-homing every dog that comes into the pound is not a proper goal for community health?
Citizen_X
@WereBear: House cats are not jaguars, they have a common ancestor, but are two different species. Humans are not of the Great Apes; we have a common root, yes, but we are different species.
Dogs are a sub-species of wolves; they can produce fertile offspring together. Pleas stop confusing the fundamental difference in the genetic relationships.
Lee
@ixnay:
‘Protective’ means ‘on patrol’ (as we refer to it). When the girls are home he wanders around the house looking out the windows and what not. When not wandering he finds a central location in the house and lays down (top of the stairs which overlook most of the house and direct access to both their rooms). If the girl’s doors are open occasionally he’ll jump on their bed and look out their second floor windows. I’ve got some great pics of him standing/sitting on them while looking out the window ‘on patrol’.
When I’m home alone he is snoring on the couch. I find it a bit insulting :)
@Tim F.:
You should change that to “50% of reported attacks”. Rarely does someone report a bite from a Yorkie.
matt K
I’ve avoided these threads, as an owner of a neutered, female, super-wussy pitbull (who my wife and I adopted as a puppy from the local shelter not to seem ‘badass’ – ha – but because she happened to be the sweetest, friendliest dog there), but christ. Pretty depressing reminder that lazy use of statistics and mob mentality wiling out is something that can easily happen among a buncha good, smart, libruls (like myself) too. Seriously, I’d like one of the rabidly anti pit people to show me how many cases of a pit biting someone were done by neutered dogs that weren’t chained up in yards or otherwise maltreated – pits are as dangerous as any other strong dog that weighs 50-70 pounds, but they don’t have magical superjaws or anything. and I’m shocked that no-one has linked to one of the few actually researched, intelligent articles on pitbulls (and racial profiling) around – here’s malcolm gladwell’s 2006 article from the New Yorker: ‘Troublemakers’ Honestly, I don’t care if the breed is neutered en masse, but I do bristle at the stupidity and stereotyping of claiming that every pitbull is a ‘potential murderer’ (news flash, so is every big dog) and that their owners all have little-dick syndrome – christ, I forget how dumb people are on the internet.
RobNYNY1957
That’s why the CDC study linking pit bull terriers and their mixes to 32% of human dog bite deaths is so important. It’s a nice objective standard. Few people shrug off getting bitten to death.
gelfling545
@the Conster: This is what I wonder. What traits does a pit bull possess other than the bred for fighting ones that cannot be had in another breed? I live in a medium size city where pit bulls are frequently bought “for protection” which strikes me as a phenomenally bad idea.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cassidy: Were you born this obtuse, or have you worked to perfect it?
matt K
Oh and while the pearl clutching from the commenter above about kicking the blog out of his/her RSS feed may have seemed a bit much, I’m honestly doing the same thing. Really the only thing that i enjoy about this blog is (most of) the commenters/guest posters – this was just the final straw that made me realize that I rarely get anything interesting/intelligent/useful from John’s posts, and the novelty of an angry liberal Andrew Sullivan ranter has gotten pretty old. Christ man. Read Ta-Nehesi Coates or something, and learn how to think/write without seeming like a reactionary dingus.
WereBear
@Citizen_X: So what? We’re not “animals”? We’re special? What are you getting at?
Tour some high security prison and tell me what we are capable of, and what we’re not.
matt K
D’oh! My previous link to the New Yorker article (which addresses much of the debate going on right now in the comments re: statistics, inbred agression, etc) doesn’t seem to work. Here it is again – seriously worth reading, whatever side you’re on on this fight: http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html
RobNYNY1957
@matt K:
I remember reading that article and thinking how odd it was that Gladwell relies on anecdotal evidence and never mentions the CDC study. I guess it didn’t fit the narrative.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cassidy: Jesoh Pete, Cassidy. Give it a fucking rest.
Citizen_X
@WereBear:
Where did you imagine I said that? We’re a different species of primate than the Great Apes, house cats are a different species of cats than jaguars, and dogs are the same species as wolves. That’s all I said.
Cassidy
@SiubhanDuinne: Give what a rest? Showing how uneducated you all sound?
WereBear
You don’t understand genetics. There’s an unbroken line from wolves; and some dogs will kill. Without a lot of training.
There’s another “line,” and these are dogs who won’t. Despite a lot of provocation.
I base this on discussion with Schutzhund trainers. They will take pups from the same litter. Some will defend to the death… and to the death.
The similar pups, from the same litter, will not.
And what this means to humans is, some of us will have that same unthinking reflex. Some, do not.
And in this, we are not at all different from “animals.”
Freemark
True pitbulls, aka American Staffordshire Terriers, are actually MORE docile than most other breeds. The real problems are the fact that every muscular short haired dog that bites someone is automatically called a ‘pit mix’ no matter what the breeds involved actually are. Now because of that, these type, not breed, of dogs are considered the meanest dogs around. Because they are the ‘meanest, most vicious’ dogs the meanest most vicious humans want to own them which of course makes those particular dogs actually mean and vicious.
Now let us make the assumption that it is a good idea to make this type of dog illegal, just how do you do that? You could kill every AKC registered AST, but that wouldn’t be very effective since those are only a small minority of the dogs referred to as ‘pitbulls’ and aren’t much of a threat anyway as AKC breeders aren’t generally breeding them for aggressiveness. So what criteria do you use, DNA tests, size vs weight, body fat index, the fact that it looks ‘pittish’. If you use DNA what does it have to have to be executed full, 1/2, 1/32. It is an important question since most vicious pitbulls aren’t pure bred and many have no AST in them at all. It could actually be a Cane Corso, a Dogo Argentino, an American Bulldog, a Bullmastiff, or even a Boxer. All of these breeds have been referred to as ‘pitbulls’ after dog attacks.. All of these breeds have similar genetic backgrounds and all give similar physical characteristics when bred with other dogs.
Of course the other issue is that the problem isn’t the breed, at least according to the ASPCA, the Humane Society, and the Center for Disease Control. If somehow, by some miracle, we eliminate ‘pitbull’ style dogs the asshole owners who want a mean dog would just go to the next dog du jour and then we would need to make that breed illegal. It seems to me holding owners and individual dogs responsible is much more effective, and reality and statistics agree, which is why countries like The Netherlands reversed their ban of pitbulls after they found that removing pitbulls had no effect on the number or severity of dog attacks. Breed has not been found to be a significant factor in dog attacks but the type of owner has been. Matter of fact in a Canadian study
Those who say we should kill all pitbulls are very similar to the people who say there is no global warming because of snow, or that all Muslims are terrorists because all of the terrorists they have heard about are Muslim. They are basing their feelings on ‘truthiness’, not reality.
I do not own a pitbull, but I researched this from studies done by the CDC, the study above, and several others, I read what Cesar Milan, Victoria Stilwell, and other dog behavior experts had to say and its a simple and real conclusion to say that pitbulls, as a breed, are no more dangerous than any other similar sized breed. But as the Canadian and other studies have indicated I would have a tendency to be more leery of a pitbull until I know its owner well. Not because of a problem with the breed but of the type of people who want to own them now as the vicious dog du jour.
RobNYNY1957
I think it’s so funny that pit bull terriers are allegedly the only breed of dog that don’t do what they are bred to do. I lived at different points of my life around working dogs, and the beagle would hunt but wouldn’t herd, the shepherd would herd but wouldn’t hunt, and the retriever would retrieve but wouldn’t guard.
Suzanne
@PhoenixRising: Absolutely. Some dogs should not be re-homed. But I think it is impossible to say whether or not a dog is a lost cause because it had the wrong parents or the wrong owner, and so should be done on a case-by-case basis, rather than eradication of innocent animals that have never hurt anyone.
Josie
@RobNYNY1957:
This. I’ve had several different types of dogs through the years, and they all pretty much knew how to do what they were bred to do without a lot of coaching, including hunting, herding, guarding and lap sitting. Maybe humans teach them some of the finer points, but instincts handed to them by genetics are pretty strong.
RobNYNY1957
@Josie:
Exactly what I said above. My terrier saw a mouse (he’s a ratter) for the first time in his life when he was 10 years old, and knew exactly how to stalk it and kill it. I’ve never seen another dog of any breed hunt a mouse.
Ruckus
@JenJen:
Good luck to the both of you. I hope both the physical and mental injuries heal soon.
Ruckus
@RobNYNY1957:
This.
Mirrors my experiences as well.
elmo
I have rescued pits. I love them. But I don’t rescue them anymore, and I think at this point it would be best if they were quietly neutered to extinction. Because the population of owners with the skill and temperament to handle a modern pit – and mind, I say “modern pit” advisedly and for a reason – is just too small.
But this:
is just 100% weapons-grade stupidity and ignorance. Am Staff is an actual breed. Staffordshire Terrier is an actual breed. American Pit Bull Terrier is an actual breed. “Pit bull” is the euphemism, used as a catch-all for all three. Also used for lots of other dogs that happen to have large, square jaws and heavy domed heads.
That’s why the bite and fatality stats are suspect, to my mind, because they include “pit mixes,” which isn’t anything other than a dog of indeterminate parentage that has a big head. There’s also a lot of selection bias going on – a gentle mutt with a big square head is a boxer mix, or lab mix, whereas a vicious mutt with a big square head is a pit mix.
It’s all nonsense. Most people would identify a Cane Corso, a Presa Canario, or even a Dogo de Argentina as a pit. Those are truly, truly dangerous dogs in unskilled hands, but they’re no more “pit bulls” than Lily is.
But for the most part, I still won’t do any more pit rescue. Finding the right home is just too difficult, and there are too many other animals in need who are a more efficient investment of resources.
RobNYNY1957
I also defy anyone to make a terrier into a seeing-eye dog. In fact, I went to a Halloween party once with me in dark glasses and him in an improvised guide-dog harness. It was pretty comical watching him pull me all over the room as he darted around. In addition to the fact that he is eight inches tall at the shoulder.
Botsplainer
@Suzanne:
About 15 years ago, I has to put down a nasty terrier mix that we’d rescued. She was shitty on a leash, defiantly not housebroken (she would actually hold it in so she could crap inside) vicious to other dogs, nasty to the kids, an escape artist which could dart out and climb fences.
She hadn’t been socialized at all, and was a year and a half old when we got her. She was about 3 when I put her down, and I hated doing that (I was the only member of the family she hadn’t snarled at, and I could tell my day was coming) but we were her second chance. I wasn’t going to let her be reformed again – she was 30 pounds of awful.
Rescue people need to understand that “love” isn’t going to fix some dogs.
jr
@RobNYNY1957: The study’s authors also concluded that this wasn’t cause for breed-specific legislation or for scapegoating all dogs of those breeds. From the CDC study I’m pretty sure you’re citing:
Josie
@RobNYNY1957:
I have a one year old corgi. From the time Duncan arrived in our house at six weeks old, he has attempted, with varying degrees of success, to herd our older dog, our two cats, and us. The fact that we don’t want to be herded discourages him not a bit. His favorite part of the day is when the older dog doesn’t want to come back in the house, and we tell Duncan, “Go get Mitzi.” He takes his job quite seriously.
RobNYNY1957
There’s also the issue of inbreeding. When I was a kid in the upper midwest, St. Bernard’s were a gentle, sweet breed. But the one regional breeder kept breeding them like Hapburgs, and within 20 years they were incredibly vicious and unpredictable, attacking people and killing sheep and calves. They seemed to decline nationally in numbers over many years to zero, though I recently saw one.
The same could be true of PBT’s.
As for the Hapsburgs, Don Carlos, Prince of Asturia, had four great grandparents instead of the more typical eight. Two of them were sisters and all were cousins.
RobNYNY1957
@jr:
Yes, that is their stated conclusion, but when one purebred breed is responsible for 44% of all the the human deaths cause by purebred dogs, I think another conclusion is possible.
simple
@elmo: Your first and last paragraphs pretty much nail the topic.
Laura Burchard
Sure, every kind of dog bites, and you can even find examples death or major injury from just about any of them — I seem to recall there’s even one chihuahua death, when someone left them alone with an infant. But when it comes to killing full-grown adults, pit bull fans seem to have a real problem confronting the reality of the statistics — it’s overwhelming dominated by pit bulls and mixes, and most of the rest are similar fighting or guard dogs like rotties. And therefore, the fear of them is entirely rational.
I’m sympathetic with the fact that most of them will never hurt anyone, but they are in fact, a dangerous breed of dog. And some of the excuse the fans make are just bizarre — even in this thread, you had people spinning the line about how they attack because they are confused about their place in their pack. If an animal kills someone because they are ‘confused about their place’, they aren’t a domesticated animal, they are a wild one. So I just find it bizarre that is thrown out as an *excuse*, instead of the deadly condemnation of the breed that it is.
Laura Burchard
Hmm, just got dumped into moderation, and no medication names in sight — can I get dug out?
jr
@RobNYNY1957: I don’t think they accept the idea of PBTs as “purebred,” either, which is why they call them “pit bull-type dogs.”
The rate of false positives for pits might be higher than you’d think (as Dexter can attest). This online quiz is a good illustration of the problem.
And, again, the percentage you’re citing comes from a specific window in time. The CDC authors point out that the “dangerous breed” title changes as time passes and different breeds become more prevalent. Please don’t just glide over that part, because they made a real effort to highlight it.
RobNYNY1957
JR:
Also have a look at this:
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/dog-bites/dogbite-factsheet.html
It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic.
Obviously, the report at the link does in fact identify breeds that are most likely to kill. I suspect the conclusion you cite was an editor’s choice.
RobNYNY1957
@jr:
OK, cut the number in half, and assume that there is no similar problem with any other breed. That would still make them the second most likely breed to kill. In fact, you can reduce the number by 3/4, and they are still tied (17 vs. 16.5) for second deadliest.
dance around in your bones
These pit bull threads have really depressed me. I think I’ll go re-read All Creatures Great and Small by James Herriot just to restore my faith in creatures.
I’ve known great pit bulls and a couple of dubious ones, but then – I’ve known a bunch of great dogs and a few dubious ones, too.
I think John Cole and JenJen are totally justified in being angry/upset at the trauma that they have suffered by a couple of dubious dogs. I was just as pissed at the coyote who killed one of my dogs and the rattlesnake that almost killed another. Both of them were just acting according to their nature, but it didn’t make it any easier for me.
Shit happens, and is complicated. So sorry for Cole and JenJen.
jr
@RobNYNY1957: Okay, if you want to play with the numbers, then what percentage of pit bulls would be involved in fatal attacks? Because the point that Cole and others are ignorantly trying to make is that the dogs are all ticking time-bombs. What percentage of those are ever actually going to “go off,” as it were? And what’s the threshold that has to be reached before it becomes okay in your view to exterminate the breed?
ixnay
The problem is not the dogs, the problem is:
(ya gotta watch the entire thing. Really.)
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dan-savage-makes-mahers-gop-guests-squirm-hard-with-talk-about-inseminating-his-husband-for-god/
Comrade Luke
I sit here reading this thread, and a girl walks up to the coffee shop with a dog in a baby stroller. She takes the dog out of the stroller and ties it to a pole (on the hot bricks) so she can get her coffee. She no more walks in the cafe than she has to run out again, because the dog has almost strangled itself trying to take the shit that it was no doubt holding in because IT WAS IN A FUCKING BABY STROLLER.
I think we can all agree on euthanasia at this point, and yes, I’m talking about the owner, not the dog.
Comrade Luke
Looks like the dog has a problem with its back legs, which is why it’s in the stroller. So I guess that makes me the terrible person. Have a nice day!
RobNYNY1957
Plus, any dog removed from pit bull type would probably just be added to pit bull mix in the lower half of the table. The total purebred and mix would remain about the same, well above any other breed or mix.
Freemark
Unfortunately my well thought out and cited post has disappeared and I did not think to keep a copy. So I will write this. I looked at the CDC study, a couple of Canadian studies, information from the Netherlands after they passed a Pitbull ban, and fatal dog attacks prior to 1980, and what expert dog behaviorists have to say. After all of that research it is very clear that ‘pitbulls’ as a breed are no more dangerous than any other similar sized breed
Between 1960 and 1980 German Shepherds were the ‘pitbull’ of that era. They caused the majority of human deaths, attacks by pitbulls were fairly rare in comparison. The pure bred pitbull was popular at that time but didn’t have very many fatal attacks to its record. After 1980 pitbulls became the vicious dog du jour among vicious asshole owners and that is when fatal attacks by pitbulls went up and ones by German shepherds went down. But one thing Canadian studies have found a correlation with is anti-social tendencies owners. Their studies strongly indicate that it is who owns the dog is a much more accurate correlation with attacks than what breed it is. Which is probably why the pitbull ban in The Netherlands had no affect on the number of dog attacks and fatalities. They banned pitbulls and not the people who owned the dogs who just went to a different breed and did the same thing to them.
Moe Gamble
Dogs and wolves are so genetically similar, scientists couldn’t figure out why wolves remain wild while dogs seek out people. Then scientists at UMass Amherst showed that the difference is very early sensory experiences (first few weeks of life) and a critical period of socialization: http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/umass-amherst-study-may-explain-why-wolves-are-forever-wild-dogs-can-be-tamed
Daffodil's Mom
The bottom line is, dogs from breeds bred to be aggressive (towards whatever) require a lot more work, and precaution, from their owners. And people unwilling or unable to do that Should. Not. Have. Them. So, the question becomes, recognizing that it isn’t the dog’s fault but that there is still a problem, what can other people do? Our only answers so far are, a) avoid the situation; and b) carry pepper spray. Anyone else?
RobNYNY1957
@jr:
That’s an interesting question, and I don’t know the answer. That’s why death statistics are especially interesting. They are almost always reported, no one is faking it, and the standard is objective.
But I still think you are asking the wrong question. Compared to the number of PBT’s in the whole population of dogs, are PBT’s disproportionately likely to kill or or cause serious injury? We can see from this study that they are disproportionately likely to kill.
Daffodil's Mom
One more thing: Daffodil was exquisitely sensitive to other people being afraid of her. I think ultimately it frightened her — not a good thing — but she was a different dog around people who felt no fear and/or genuinely liked her. I am wondering if pit bulls also sense (smell?) people’s unease if not fear, and that might not be a part of what might set one off. Not all of it, but maybe part?
RobNYNY1957
There has also been an interesting experiment going on in the USSR/Russia to breed dog-like domesticated animals from foxes, with mixed results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
One of the big genetic differences between wolves and dogs seems to be that dogs have a mutation that allows them to digest starch.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=dog-evolution-included-getting-the-13-01-31
Although my dog, who loves corn, can’t seem to digest it at all, and it comes out looking like a Green Giant commercial.
Moe Gamble
@RobNYNY1957:
Oh come on. My German Shepherds herd, hunt, retrieve and sit on laps. When I had a Yorkie it hunted, retrieved, sat on laps, and tried to herd but nobody noticed.
All of these abilities are related to innate social behaviors and the prey drive, and they are shared by all dogs and wolves. The only reason anyone thinks that certain behaviors are stronger in some dogs than others is because they see what they expect to see.
Don’t you remember all those studies that show that a job recruiter will tend to underrate the resume of an applicant with an African-American sounding name, and give the exact same resume a higher rating when it carries a WASPy sounding name? People see what they want and expect to see.
Also too, to quote John, have you seen all those studies that show that people tend to respond to others by delivering the behavior expected of them? So if you have a teacher who believes that little girls can’t learn math, the little girls in his classroom tend not to learn math.
It’s the same with dogs. If you’re walking around afraid of big dogs, the big dogs you encounter feel it, and it tends to bring out their dominant behaviors if the dog isn’t accustomed to a wide variety of human types.
RobNYNY1957
@Moe Gamble:
I guess that explains why there are so many Jack Russell Terriers as seeing eye dogs.
Suzanne
@Daffodil’s Mom: What we should do is encourage good pet owners to adopt gentle pits, spay and neuter, mix them with other gentle breeds to breed out aggressive tendencies, and make pet owners liable for any injury or damage they cause. And everyone who doesn’t own a pit should recognize that all animals are animals, capable of animal behavior, and be diligent.
RobNYNY1957
And I don’t disagree with your basic point that some dogs handle multiple tasks, but I think it’s close to indisputable that some dogs do things by instinct (AKA breeding) that other dogs won’t do at all (and probably can’t even be taught to do). Back on the farm, we had an amazing multitasking mutt, the best dog ever. Later, I had a Portuguese water dog for a while, and he loved retrieving and swimming (and did not need to be taught). My terrier has never even had a bath because I like having 10 fingers. He hates the rain so much that he will go for two days without pooping rather than walk in drizzle.
Moe Gamble
@WereBear:
Schutzhund trainers aren’t scientists. In fact, the ones I’ve known have tended to have very Nazi-like beliefs about breeding that have nothing to do with the genetic science. The science on the genetics is very clear. All dogs are wolves. They all have a predatory instinct and a pack or social instinct.
A great deal of what makes one dog a great Schutzhund candidate and another a good candidate for visiting the aged and infirm is position in the litter, which is basically established by size at birth, which is basically established by position in the uterus.
The rest of the difference comes from socialization experiences in the first few weeks of life, not the genes.
jr
@simple: Everyone that has a baby might have a psychopathic killer, too. Jonathan Swift FTW!
WereBear
Well, I have to agree with you there.
Fact is, and all I was trying to establish, is that I approach a dog park with a “back of the head” assessment which depends on the dogs I see in the park at that time.
If I see a bunch of goofy mixes, and Goldens, and Labs, and Great Pyrs, and even Beagles, I’ll relax and join the group.
If I see Pits, and/or Rottys, and/or GSDs with the low slung hindquarters; I’m seeing a bunch of un-nuetered male egos and rotten breeding (human and canine) and I’ll steer clear.
Moe Gamble
@matt K:
To quote John, whose posts I love, please eat a bag of salted dicks.
RobNYNY1957
And to complete my point, some dogs do things by instinct (AKA breeding) that it is very hard to stop them from doing. Hence, this whole thread.
Moe Gamble
@Freemark:
Great comments, Freemark.
Moe Gamble
@WereBear:
I understand.
Daffodil's Mom
@Suzanne: With all due respect, I disagree. Your dog is a cross, and/or may not ever come into a situation where its aggression could be triggered. We were privileged to have Daff for 15-1/2 years and did everything we could to give her a good life — for which she repaid us in spades — but it took A LOT of work in a lot of areas. And that is despite the fact that she was sweet, gentle, exceedingly caring and never came near biting a person. It’s way more than most people want to do, and it’s soooo easy to get lulled into negligence based on the dog’s really terrific characteristics. As John said in his original post, there are so many other equally-deserving dogs that just don’t come with quite that baggage. That Dutch study made sense — the dogs are the victims too and it’s the breeders and horrible owners who are the problem, but my real concern is for the truly innocent victims of any attack — and how, besides pepper spray, to avoid one.
jr
@RobNYNY1957: The problem there is you’re assuming that the statistics as to how many of those dogs were actually “pit bull-type” are accurate. There’s very good anecdotal evidence to believe they aren’t. Dogs with certain physical characteristics are often mistyped as pit bulls by people who simply don’t know any better.
And as the CDC study (and, really, just about every other study in the universe) has noted, fatal dog attacks are very rare. If we consider all reported dog attacks against people, then the PBT-types don’t have a disproportionally high attack rate (and let’s keep in mind that most dog attacks are probably unreported: we never called the authorities about the dog that attacked me as a kid, for example, even though it turned my white turtleneck into a red one).
I’m much more concerned with the correlation between how a dog is treated–whether it’s been fixed, whether it’s chained outdoors, whether it’s had training and socialization, etc.–and its propensity to attack people and animals. I don’t approach tethered dogs, and I wouldn’t think of owning an unaltered dog. (And as to the story upthread about the owner who knew her dog would attack other dogs but let her off-leash anyway: that owner was incredibly negligent, but her negligence wasn’t in owning that type of dog, it was in how she acted with that specific dog.)
Again, to me, the best answer seems to be a breed-neutral policy of strict liability. It drastically increases the incentives for owners who have dangerous dogs to either put them down or get them appropriate training and take extra precautions. And it doesn’t unfairly punish good dogs or the vast majority of pit owners whose dogs are well behaved, well trained, gentle and submissive.
Pogonip
@Josie: My grandmother had a frustrated corgi. Nobody noticed her attempts to herd. When I went to visit I would always let Corky herd me around the house and into the bathroom. Grandma mentioned once that Corky would get excited hearing me pull into the driveway.
Moe Gamble
@RobNYNY1957:
I believe your terrier doesn’t like water, but I can introduce you to terriers who love water, and I can introduce you to a Labrador Retriever who’s frightened of water.
When people get a Lab, they have visions of throwing sticks into the surf for the dog to retrieve, and the dog learns to love water and retrieving sticks from the surf.
When people get a Yorkie, they have visions of cuddling the dog in their laps, and the dog learns to love cuddling in laps.
RobNYNY1957
@jr:
See above. Reduce the number by 75% and they are still the second deadliest breed. Or move them to pit bull mix, and the numbers stay the same as the deadliest breed/mix.
Elizabelle
@Comrade Luke:
You made me laugh. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
HelloRochester
Many dog owners suck. I have family with a collie mix who has left permanent scratch scars on my wife and both of my kids. She is a sweet dog with bad manners and gets zero point zero correction because she is treated as a child substitute. Some people are clueless, some people are obtuse, and some people have fucked up priorities.
Are you a childless person with lots of time, sufficient property to keep them contained, interest in taking care of an abused animal, and responsible with training collars and muzzles? Get yourself 20 pit bulls. I could give a fuck. 100lb big-hearted but delusional animal lover who thinks every pit bull can be as sweet as your average mutt and you walk them on a lead appropriate for a 20lb cat? You’re nuts and I demand to be protected from you.
jr
@RobNYNY1957: And that still comes back to the initial question: what percentage of those dogs are we talking about? If we’re using that CDC report’s figures, which are based off of 238 fatal attacks in total between 1979 and 1998, then you’re talking about damning an entire breed off of 76-118 dogs, depending on the methodology and assuming zero misidentifications (which is unreasonable as an assumption except for the sake of argument).
Assuming there were only 1,000,000 pit bull-type dogs in the US during the period of the study (which is certainly lower than the real number), that would come out to a worst-case estimate that 99.9882% of PBLs were innocent. Again, that’s using numbers we know skew against the dogs.
That’s why people citing anecdotes to justify hysteria sets so many of us off, and why I berated Cole last night for going after my dog.
Pogonip
I don’t understand why some people seem so upset at the idea of no more pits. The world has got along just fine without turnspit dogs now that they’ve died off. Or, suppose there are no more beagles. (Perhaps rabbits have gone extinct.). All the beagles lived out their lives and died, and no new generations were bred. So what? Wouldn’t I still have hundreds of other breeds, and an infinite variety of mutts, to choose from? Why are pits in and of themselves so important to some?
Moe Gamble
@RobNYNY1957:
Seeing-eye dogs have to be big enough to pull a person around.
Cassidy
@Pogonip: going extinct is one thing and sad enough. Exterminating a whole breed of dig because people suck is wrong.
Suzanne
@Pogonip: I said before that I have no investment in the breed. I do, however, have an investment in my dog, and hearing that lots of people would like to take her from my home to euthanize her raises the same sort of protective instinct in me that John felt for Tunch.
Daffodil's Mom
@Suzanne: But you’re asking other people to preferentially make that investment as opposed to other breeds traditionally bred to be less aggressive. Look, everyone ought to be held liable for any real damage their dog does, but that still won’t stop the jerks who oughtn’t be owning them in the first place. And it’s unfortunately appropriate to at least wonder, if not be ready to take precautions, when you spy an unfamiliar dog of an aggressive breed, or a familiar one with a jerky owner. Not fair to the dog or the breed, but based on a lot more actual data than any ethnic profiling in NYC or FL. Plus, people here are supposed to have equal rights: dogs, sadly, are still considered property.
Suzanne
@Daffodil’s Mom: Yes, I believe that human hubris is responsible for creating breeds that are more dangerous, and therefore humans are responsible for fixing it. Yes, I believe that that means genuine dog lovers are charged with adopting and training sane, healthy pits and breeding out aggressive tendencies and/or spay/neuter. Doberman Pinscher lovers and breeders did this with their breed, recognizing that they had a responsibility to make the animals they love fit for human companionship.
The reason that people feel so defensively about this is because the vast majority of pits can make really great pets. They have some overarching breed characteristics that can be wonderful. So it’s our responsibility to do our best to encourage those while suppressing the aggression. Are some pit bull owners shitty? Yeah, they are, and that makes me sad, and if I knew anyone who treated their pit poorly, I would be just as vehement to them that they needed to fucking stop their shitty behavior and that their animals were unsafe. But saying that my dog, WHO HAS HURT ANYONE MORE THAN WAGGING HER TAIL TOO VIGOROUSLY ON THEM AND SMACKING THEM IN THE KNEES, should be killed because she has the wrong DNA is pretty fucked up.
Pogonip
@Suzanne: No, I’m not talking about confiscating any pits and killing them. I understand you love your dog and she’s the world’s best dog because she’s YOUR dog, and that’s as it should be. What puzzled me was the commenters who seemed to feel that a world without pits would be a lesser place.
Tunchine, as I call the calico, just let out a loud angry yowl; seems to be getting more and more territorial about my porch. Can’t figure out what attracts her so, but she’s welcome to hang out as long as she doesn’t poop there. (No, she’s svelte, I just call her Tunchine in a salute to His Floofiness.)
simple
@jr: Why bother responding if the best you can do is a lame throwaway comparison? If I am looking for a house pet, I see no reason to go with a large, aggressive breed. There are tons of small, harmless mutts put down all the time. I don’t get the desire to instead save dogs capable of such destruction. Notice I am not saying anything about their dispositions or propensity to attack. The mere fact that they are capable of such destruction makes them unsuitable as house pets, especially when there are so many more suitable dogs readily available that will be put down in their place.
wonkie
Hey Master Mix, in Zimmerman’s neighborhood it was really telling that the only kid out after dark was black. Which is why he deserved to get shot.
I really expected better of liberals and progressive than for people to believe in “born-in” characteristics based on anecdotes.
Yes Anstaffs are a breed and African americans aren’t. but people who are goig to form an opinion about a breed have the same due diligence as people who are going to form an opinion about an ethnic group: know wha tthe hell you are talking about. And that means more than anecdotes.
The American Kennel Club does temperment testing on pure bread dogs every years. Am Staffs and American Pitbull Terriers routinely score the same as golend retreivers for people socialability.
All fo the terriers were bred to kill small animals. Pitbulls are big terriers.
People who engage i the “born to kill” , “loaeded gun” type prejudice are responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of dogs every year. Directly repsonsible. I expect better of liberals and progressives than that.
Dogs are animals, They very accordig to individual character. They very accordin to houw they are treated. They also very according to hw they are bred. It is jst as wroong to assume based on anecdotes about dogs asi it is to belive in stories about welfare queens.
JR
@simple: notice where you call them “aggressive” and yet say you’re “not saying anything about their dispositions or propensity to attack”? That’s the part where I stopped.
simple
@JR: If you like, take out the word “aggressive.” I don’t see the need to own a house pet that is capable of killing an adult human. What is it that pit bulls, rottweilers, german shepherds and the like give people as house pets that smaller, more easily controlled dogs can’t? I don’t get the need to save the potentially dangerous breeds when we can’t save all the dogs. Save the ones that are not potentially dangerous. Now give me another clever one-liner.
MikeInSewickely
@elmo: One of the better comments on the whole subject and shows understanding of both sides.
I suggest another solution. Pit bull owners say it is almost always bad owners.
What about exotic animals? A lion is a lion is a lion. No matter how trained and compassionate the owner, society and the law place very strict limits on ownership and maintenance of such animals. They are considered undomesticated at worse and semi-domesticated at best. Strict rules of ownership, maintenance are demanded. Any infractions are severely dealt with.
Until someone can show me that the majority of pit bull breeders are diligently working to try and breed out some of the aggressive nature, pit bulls should be considered an exotic animal. That would probably mean insurance on the breed would be required.
You love the breed? Fine – a couple of dollars a month in a national group insurance plan should be welcomed.
The dog (any dog) that did what comes naturally and you do not want to euthanize (which I agree with to a point)? The animal is now labeled an exotic with all the responsibilities that brings. That should apply to particular dog or cat that causes serious injury or death of animals or humans.
Just my $0.02.
Daffodil's Mom
@Suzanne,
OK then, I thought you were advising anyone looking for a dog to preferentially rescue pibbles. Daff was truly wonderful — that’s why I chose her name rather than any of the other, really terrific dogs I’ve had or have. But we were NEVER not aware of what could possibly set her off, and I’ve sure gotten the sense from a lot of the people here that their possibly even equally wonderful dogs (though, ok I’m biased, I doubt it!) could ever do any harm. And that’s a bias that strikes me as very foolish and very dangerous, despite however wonderful the dog is.
We seem to be developing a situation with our Borzoi cross, who is the cutest thing you’ve ever seen, but now needs to be muzzled outside and crated whenever we leave because just in the last week he bounded after two of our cats — who love him and whom he utterly adores back, as long as they’re not in motion. Never happened before, but it’s our responsibility now because going after anything that moves is built into the breed and he just started showing it. Any dog will, and if you get a dog from a breed bred specifically to do something, it’s your responsibility to ensure that no harm will come from that one occasion where it does what it’s never done before.
reality-based
@wonkie:
OK; leaving aside the compelling CDC statistics: (which you ignore) lets look at some of your “anecdotes”
In the first 5 months of 2013, pit bulls inflicted 93 percent of all dog bite fatalities. This is well above the average of 60 percent from 2005 to 2012.
As the pit bull population rises, more human fatalities ensue. During the last eight-year period (1991-98) that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied fatal attacks by breed, pit bulls were estimated at 1 percent of the U.S. dog population. Pit bulls killed an average of three people per year.
The pit bull population has since grown to 4 percent. During the most recent eight-year period (2005-12), pit bulls killed an average of 19 people per year.
http://www.causes.com/actions/1753697-fatal-pit-bull-attacks-sharply-rise-in-2013
If the current rate of fatalities inflicted by pit bulls continues, 33 Americans will lose their lives to pit bulls by the end of 2013.
And a 2011 study from the Annals of Surgery revealed that “attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs.”
The authors of that 2011 study go on to say, “Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the U.S. mortality rates related to dog bites.”
My personal acquaintances include
* three people who have had their dogs attacked (one killed, one now with only three legs, one with horrible scars and fears. )
* one family whose 3-year old daughter was attacked on a public park playground. Damn near killed. Mom couldn’t pull it off, a passerby grabbed a big branch and whaled on the dog to get it to let go. Little girl is now 8. A total of 6 plastic surgeries so far.
That’s four completely unprovoked attacks. And EVERY ONE of the attacking dogs was a pit bull or a pit mix. That’s not “anecdotes”. That’s data. (and yes, I DO understand the difference. )
So I don’t CARE if your feelings are hurt, or you think I’m not being a good liberal because I’m not a damn fool. I’m too busy feeling sorry for a horribly disfigured little girl, and a maimed dog, and a broken-hearted former-owner-of-the-murdered-spaniel mutt) – not to mention John and JenJen -to care.
Spay and neuter every damn one of em, don’t adopt them out. & I don’t give a shit what you and the other idiot pitlovers think.
Ever seen a 3 year old little girl with her face and arms all stitched up? From one of your damn pit bulls?
No? Then shut up.
wonkie
Piutbulls don’t have an aggressive nature. Doon’t you evfer bother to acquaint yourself with facts before drawing a conclusion. Thinking like a Teabagger! And just as with the Teabaggers that fear-based irratioality is tremendously harmful.
Once again, on professional temeprament testing of Am Staffs and Am Pits done annually, both breeds teasst for people socialablity the same as golden retreivers. Anyoone who is knowledgeable about dogs kows that they can tell the difference between people and other animals; after, all there are thousands of years od domestication behind every breed. All perriers were bred to kill small animals, so it is smart to keep the pure bred pit breed away from small beasties., But guess what? All of the big dogs have the protential for killing small aimals, ans so do a lot of cats! But just as Teatards only get hysterical about input that reinforces their prejudices, people prejudiced against pits act like being bred to hunt small critters is an original sin in pits but pay no attention when German shepards, coon hounds, akitas, ridgebacks, all of the other terriers, and, well, lots and lots of dogs do the same thing!
Millions of dogs are euthanized in shelters each year. Pitbull type dogs (meaning smooth coat, floopy ears–actual pit genes are not necessary to trigger the prejudice) are the second most commonly killed due partly to being so common but also because people like you are irresponisble enough to indulge i prejudicial thinking.
About a dog, for chrissake. Where on earth did humans get the idea that they are ratioal creatures? And this thrad has been an educatio for me because I had a high impression of the basically reality based and rationa approach to life that I though t was the basis of progressinve thinking. And here’s all these people making negative assertions based on anecdotes , while ignorig all other incoming info.
Shameful.
BTW I don’t have a pitbull Ihave the dog that was the boogey dog of the middle class imagination in the fifties: a German Shepard. And she in not good with cats. And my neighbors GS isn;t good with cats or people. And a GS adopted out by a local rescue killed a small dog. So that proves it! German Shepards are dangerous! They all are loaded guns, born to kill!
simple
German Shepherds are dangerous. I hate how many inexperienced and indifferent dog owners get them. I don’t think GSDs or pit bulls should be house pets in general.
wonkie
About dog bite incidents. A great Dane nearly bit a woman’s head off here so that’s datat that proves Great Danes are dangerous.
According to the Center for DiseaseControl, about forty breeds are responsiblie for the dog bites reported at emergency roomsw each year. About half are “mixed breed” . Of remaining bite incidents the following breeds bare most of the responsiblity: Great Danes, akita, German shepards , huskies, Dobermans, Rotties, shar peis, pitbulls, and Ican’t remember the other two.
However none of the breeds occur often enough to indicate anything about the breed: there’s no statistical significance. For example, there’s about three million pitbul type dogs in the US, but pitbulls cause only a fraction of half of the reported dog bites
Accrding to the Humane Society there is a “biting breed”: an unsocialized chained up dog.
The typical dog bite victim is a child bitten by the chained up outdoor dog owned by the child’s family. The secon most common senario is that the child is betten by the neighbor’s chaied up outdoor dog.
The news media is not interested in educating the public; I thought those of us who didn’t fall for the Iraq War hype knew that. News is entertainment. A dog bite story, particularly one that reinforces a prejudice, sells news. For example out hwere I live there were tow dog bite incidents that happened the same week. Oe got a weeks’ worth of play and one didn’t make the news at all.
Two pitbull type dogs attacked a golden retriever and in the fight the retrieer’s owner got a non-serious bite on the arm. That got a weeks’ worth of airplay.
Meanwhile a woman came home drunk and fell over a chained up Great Dane. the Dane nearly bit her head off. She got eleven inches of stitches after being air lifted around the Sound to a hospital. That incident never made the news.
Anecdotes are not data. They reinforce prejudice. For some reason American culoture needs to have a boogey dog of the imagination, some dog to hate and fear. Shortly after WW2 it was GSD. The Dobies, then rotties, The prejudixce against pits started about twnety years ago and will burn out soooner of later.
But not until a lot of harm has been done.
Btw, breed bans don’t work. All that happens in areas with a breed ban is kids get bit by a non-banned breed. Spain had a breed ban, but recinded it when they learned the hard way that bannig pits just meant people got bit by German Shepards.
Anne Laurie
@Keith P.:
This, times ten thousand. There are wonderful Pits out there, owned by people who know what they’re doing, and more power to all parties. But they’re not “all purpose push-button dogs” — most modern Americans just aren’t qualified to give them the training, exercise & social support they need.
I look forward to a day when every pitbull is a carefully chosen, loved & trained family member. And when that day comes, there will be very few pitbulls, just as there are not many otterhounds or foxhounds running around the neighborhood or being dumped at shelters.
But then, I feel the same way about border collies!
Anne Laurie
@RobNYNY1957: Actually, many of the early prototypes for the professional ‘seeing eye dogs’ were little terriers — small enough to be easy to pick up & carry, determined enough to yank their person hard if they were heading in a dangerous direction. The Americans who decided to create a “special line” of branded Seeing-Eye Dogs decided the dogs should be big enough to force their handlers out of danger, but that choice was & is still debated.
Obviously a helper dog who needs to help pull a wheelchair, or protect an adult with balance issues from falls, needs to be a big dog. But lots of hearing-ear dogs & ‘mobility assistance’ dogs whose handlers just want a dog to fetch & carry (& icebreak!) are lapdog-sized.
Johnny Coelacanth
I’ve been bitten by dogs three times in my life. Each time it was a German Shepherd. As a young coelacanth, I spent a few years working as a kennel tech. Never, not once, did I ever have a problem with “pit bulls.” Dobermans, German Shepherds, Dachshunds (nasty little fuckers): assholes. Pit bulls? Not so much.
Jebediah
@wonkie:
The fucking problem is the fucking owners. From mistermix’s post:
Right in your own fucking post you have the answer. 100% of your two points of anecdata involve problematical owners. It has been pointed out repeatedly that periodically, the assholes’ dog of choice changes. I am old enough to remember it going from German Shepherd, to doberman, to rottweiler, to pit bull. The dogs that are owned and mistreated by assholes are the dogs that are dangerous. It has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread alone that AKC American Staffordshires test very, very high for docility. My own amstaff, Otto, has been attacked by other dogs before and his vicious response has been to look confused and bleed.
Look, I understand that people who have been through trauma can’t always be completely rational about it. Tunch’s death, the attack on Stanley – these are horrible experiences that I wouldn’t wish on anybody. But if every time I come here I am told what an asshole I am, and that my dog should be shot… maybe I just need to find something else to do with my spare time.
Anne Laurie
@Ramalama:
It means people who care enough about their pitbulls to get them expensive veterinary care also care enough to give the dogs the training & exercise to keep them sane members of the community.
Same impulse, I know a lot of groomers who would rather work with ‘petshop’ purebreds than expensive purpose-bred animals. Because an impulse-purchase petshop puppy doesn’t get unlimited chances to attack groomers (or other dogs), while someone who’s invested in a “show dog” is all too liable to blame the dog’s bad behavior on anyone but their poor, misunderstood, highly-strung Ladeedah’s Pookie of Scamsuxxors Hall.
Johnny Coelacanth
@Ted & Hellen: “I enjoy it!” That’s because you’re a bitter old queen with no joy in his life.
Recall
@wonkie: Tell us more about how black people are analogous to dogs.
mclaren
Free the pit bulls and put the city cop and the gun collector in cages.
Anne Laurie
@mclaren: That’s not fair to the pit bulls. Too many crazies & paranoids out there for an unsupervised dog to be safe!
wonkie
@RecallDon’t try that crap on me. You know what I said. If you had a reasoned rebuttal, you would give it instead of pulling a Teabagger-style distortion.:
Ted & Hellen
@Johnny Coelacanth:
No, that’s not it!
Annamal
Ok here’s the thing, I have no investment in pitbulls at all but all of the arguments that have been made here about pits and attacking other dogs are currently being made in NZ about cats and wildlife ( or more specifically native birds).
There are people who seriously wish to exterminate cats here and cat-owners react pretty much exactly as you would expect.
The pro-extermination crowd have a point (and I say this as an adoring cat owner) but they’re not going to get their way by suggesting that other people kill off beloved family members.
Mike Jones
@Ksmiami: @Ksmiami: Don’t be fooled. I love all the sled dog breeds (I’m currently on my fourth Samoyed), but they *all* have a strong prey drive. Any small animal or baby human can trigger it, and a Siberian is certainly strong enough to kill a cat or even a one year old baby easily. Don’t think “my dog isn’t like that”, because there are circumstances where he/she might very well be.
Mike Jones
@RobNYNY1957: It’s important to get context with your facts, though. How much of that is the result of people getting pits and Rotties because they *want* them to be aggressive? My anecdotal evidence: my first Samoyed took his Canine Good Citizen test at a local Rottweiler club event. There were about 50 Rotties there. I’ve never felt safer in my life.
Johnny Coelacanth
As a general observation, when Corner Stain and TeddenHellen are on your side, you may not be on the most solid ground, no matter the topic. Just sayin.’
robnyny1957
@Mike Jones:
Yes, and if I were presenting anecdotal evidence, your anecdotal evidency might somehow be relevant.
robnyny1957
@Anne Laurie:
And today? None.
Johnny Coelacanth
Also, my preferred breed of dog is objectively superior to all others. Coincidentally enough, the same is true for my taste in music. Also too, my sartorial choices mark me as a unique individual with real taste, whereas you dress funny.
robnyny1957
@reality-based:
You have discovered the great limitations of rational arguments: Rational arguments are powerless against irrational beliefs. No amount of facts, evidence, facts, data, statistics will deter an irrational person from irrational beliefs.
John Rogers
I will say this until this sinks in.
The plural. Of Anecdote. Is not Data.
For every anecdote you have of a pit attack, no matter how traumatic, I can produce one from personal experience of a non-pit attack.
The people whose data disagrees with you about pits being particularly vicious are:
The American Humane Society
The American Veterinary Medial Association
The Canine Research Council
The CDC
all of whom argue against breed-based legislation. The American Veterinary Medical Association has done control experiments and found pits and pit mixes no more aggressive in their tests. They point out that LARGER dogs in general are the problem, and that MANY breeds would then fall into a prophylactic legislation program.
The CDC numbers you all blithely quote are derived from media reports, and the CDC itself cautions not to take them as statistically significant — and SPECIFICALLY argues against breed based legislation.
The real issue is that 94% of fatal dog attacks — and from that lets assume we can extrapolate downward to non-fatal attacks — are by non-neutered dogs. Those are dogs owned by particularly shitty owners who are also the ones most likely to not be responsible pet owners.
There’s an excellent paper called “The Bad Dog Placebo” which traces 50 years of dog attack statistics, pointing out that WHATEVER dog was being used for guard duties most is the villainous “killer breed” of the time. This is a recurring phenomenom used to force attention and responsibility away from bad owners to specific breeds.
Tell whatever stories you want. I will side with, again, the American Human Society, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Canine Research Council.
All dogs — EVERY DOG — can be triggered in the right circumstances.
robnyny1957
@Mike Jones:
My context is a 20-year study.
Recall
@wonkie: You compared dogs to black people. That’s pretty fucking racist.
robnyny1957
@John Rogers:
You are confusing my statistics with your anecdotes.
http://www.causes.com/actions/1753697-fatal-pit-bull-attacks-sharply-rise-in-2013
In the first 5 months of 2013, pit bulls inflicted 93 percent of all dog bite fatalities. This is well above the average of 60 percent from 2005 to 2012.
http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html
But do pit bulls deserve their reputation as vicious “attack” dogs? An overwhelming amount of evidence suggests they do.
A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.
Leslie
When I go to my local shelter [which is one of the most depressing places on earth], they have one entire kennel occupied solely by pits and pit mixes. It’s always full. The dogs in the other kennels, regardless of breed, tend to be quiet when you walk by, either watching you silently or not even bothering to look. The pits? They go crazy, and I don’t mean in an aggressive way. I mean they start crying and jumping up against the chain-link fencing, desperately eager for someone’s, anyone’s, attention. They start as soon as they notice you, and they don’t stop until you’re well away from them. It’s utterly heartbreaking. None of them seem dangerous; all of them seem like hugely affectionate animals.
That said, selfish people have been breeding pit bulls for aggression for decades now; that’s a lot of generations in dog years, a lot of reinforcement of negative traits. Yes, the AST breed standard is more docile than average, but how many pits these days actually conform to the breed standard? I have met some lovely pit bulls, and I’m thankful for the people who rescue them and act as responsible owners. But all the sweetness in the world doesn’t change the damage they’re capable of doing. And yes, all dogs are capable of doing damage, but the CDC statistics [ETA: and the livescience report] suggest pretty strongly that pit bull attacks do more damage than most.
I’m with JR; we need to seriously invest in spaying and neutering the dog and cat populations in the US. If we could get the pit population under control, then people who understand the breed could work on restoring it to its standard [not that that isn’t already going on, but it seems to be a losing battle]. I would also like to see some sort of screening of would-be pit owners, to keep them away from the dogfighters and the criminals and the assholes, but that would be difficult to implement.
robnyny1957
I’m waiting for more anecdotal testimony from people who know PBT’s who didn’t kill any people. Any takers?
simple
@Annamal: Domesticated cats as house pets should be strictly indoors animals and should be spayed or neutered. If they threaten the indigenous animal populations, feral cats need to be put down.
Loneoak
For all the invective that you fuckers throw at Michael Vick, you have the same opinion of pit bulls as he does. I, on the other hand, am with BadRap, and with my rescue pit mix who is a goddamned angel with my infant child. Eat a dick for saying her life is forfeit. Seriously, eat a giant bag of half-rotten dicks.
JR
@simple: I’m curious if you’ve ever owned a dog before. The reason I wonder is because you don’t seem to grasp a very simple concept: different dogs have different personalities.
The first dog I ever had, Snowy, was a little Alaskan terrier who had a brain the size of a walnut and, while sweet, wasn’t exactly smart (she never did get the hang of that whole “housebreaking” thing).
My second dog, Charlotte, was a fairly mix of black lab and red bone coon hound, which meant she had a beautiful coat and fantastic ears (and also that she was around 60 pounds, substantially heavier than my pit), but she also had a terrifying fear of thunder (a pretty common occurrence in Georgia around seven months out of the year) and a tendency to destroy stuff around the house and yard. She didn’t really like us all that much, but was tolerant enough.
The Wonder Twins, Proctor and Gamble, were presumably some mix of black lab and golden retriever. Combined, they might have been able to beat a sack of hammers at Trivial Pursuit. They both spent most of their time causing trouble. They learned to climb a five foot-tall chain link fence, meaning most of their outdoor time had to be spent in a kennel, and they had to have proximity shock collars. We ended up re-homing them.
About six years later, my then-fiancee and I adopted Abby and Murphy, our cat, on the same day (July 4th weekend, 2006). They were both about 18 months old, and Abby (then named “Freckles”) had spent the past year at the Humane Society shelter in Bradenton, Florida. We had walked by her kennel and thought she was cute, but we didn’t want a pit bull. We looked at all the dogs at the shelter, and spent some time in a dog run with 3 of them. None of them seemed to be that interested in us.
I was just about ready to pack it in when my wife mentioned Freckles, and asked to have her brought out. We sat in some chairs as the staff brought her into the space. Freckles walked over to my wife immediately, sniffed for a few seconds, then set her chin right on my wife’s knee and looked at her with the classic “puppy dog eyes.” Abby’s adorably cute, with a heart-shaped patch on her side and a little spot on the top of her head that she liked having scratched, and she won us over pretty quickly. We spent a few more minutes with her–she was scared of me, but with my wife she wagged her still-tucked tail against her own belly–and cat-tested her with Murphy’s litter-mate (they got along fine, without any indication that Murphy would someday prove the clearly dominant of the two).
And you know what comes next: Abby has been the calmest, sweetest dog I’ve ever known, much less owned. She sleeps in the bed with us, nestling herself so that her back touches my shin and her head touches my wife’s. She and the cat share the loveseat with each other. She isn’t food aggressive, she housebroke quickly, submits with a tucked tail to every dog at the park, and has never even playfully nipped at me. I can count on both hands the number of times she’s even barked in the seven years we’ve had her. She was easy to train, to the degree that she wipes her paws when she comes inside from the yard (not even joking: my wife taught her that trick in about three days). She responds to snaps and hand signals in addition to verbal commands. And she is even more responsive to praise than treats. I wish she could catch a frisbee and wasn’t gun shy, but other than that, I can’t complain.
While some personality traits are more common in certain breeds, there’s no universal rule that pits are difficult to train or control (most of the ones I know are neither), or that they’re aggressive (again, most of the ones I know are energetic, but not aggressive). Take your blinders off for two seconds and try to understand that pit bulls are popular for reasons that don’t even come close to your prejudices.
Recall
@Loneoak: Bad Rap would be a lot more convincing if they stopped getting mauled to death by pit bulls:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2027286/Darla-Napora-Pregnant-woman-dies-mauled-pet-dog-living-room.html
Just saying.
Patricia Kayden
@Recall: Wow. Advocating for a dog that killed you.
Corner Stone
@Loneoak: and with my rescue pit mix who is a goddamned angel with my infant child
Corner Stone
So what I’m hearing from pibbles owners here is that every one of them goes to great lengths to deprogram their dog, secure their environments, and watches them like a hawk virtually all the time.
Kind of like living with a crack junkie in your house. But by choice.
simple
@JR: You have never addressed my question: why do people feel the need for a house pet that is capable of such destruction? Put another way, what does a pit bull offer as a house pet that a smaller dog, that is not capable of the destruction a pit bull is capable of, cannot offer? And I extend this to other breeds as well. I certainly understand why police would want a GSD as a working dog. I don’t understand why someone would want a GSD as a house pet. I think they are very unsuitable as house pets for most of the people that get them for such. I have seen too many indifferent and unskilled dog owners with out of control GSDs that are threats to others pets and potentially to other people. I just want to try to understand what it is that these potentially dangerous (if nothing else, simply as a result of their size and strength) dogs offer that other dogs don’t. Since we cannot save all the dogs that come to shelters, I think we should first focus on saving the ones that are not potential threats to humans.
And to answer your question: yes, I have had in the past and currently now have dogs. I understand that dog personalities differ widely. I also understand that despite what some people are trying to claim on here, there are some broad generalities that are true in general about certain breeds. Anyone that has ever had a JRT understands that they are very inquisitive, aggressive toward small rodents, and highly energetic. If they were not small dogs I would think them wholly unsuitable as house pets for most dog owners (as it is, I think they are still unsuitable for many inexperienced dog owners, and I love JRTs). But really, my problem with what I am referring to as potentially dangerous breeds has more to do with their basic physical capabilities than their personalities. Yeah, any dog from any breed can be a jerk. But when a large, strong dog is a jerk the potential consequences are much more severe than when a small dog is a jerk. To focus specifically on pits, many are physically capable of killing an adult human. Why save them instead of (for example) some yorkie mix when we can’t save both? If the yorkie mix freaks out you end up with at worst a small bite. If a pit freaks out you end up with at worst someone dead or maimed.
Btw, I am not advocating killing every pit or rottie or whatever. I simply do not understand the current popularity of rescuing pits when there are tons of other dogs that need homes that they don’t get. I think we should focus our efforts on first saving the ones that are not potential dangers. My “blinders and prejudices” really can be summed up by saying that most people should not own pit bulls as house pets as they would be better off with some other breed (and so would all the people and animals around them). Again, pit bulls are the focus of this thread and so I am referring to them frequently, but as an example I also think most people should not own GSDs as house pets as they are not capable of training or controlling them safely and reliably. At least with GSDs I see the other legitimate uses there are for the breed. I honestly don’t see any legitimate uses in our society that the pit bull breed offers that other breeds don’t fill equally well or even better. I would be fine if the breed simply stopped being bred and went out of existence although I am not advocating any sort of forced program; I am simply stating my feelings on the breed. I don’t think our society or human culture in general would be the worse if pit bulls ceased to be bred. There would still be really sweet dogs in the world but there would be fewer ones that are capable of vast destruction. Of course I feel that way about many breeds (the ones Elmo referenced are great examples).
Paul in KY
@Lee: Because she gets more money from the owners?
Paul in KY
@Robert Sneddon: Good point.
Paul in KY
@shelly: I don’t think he said to shoot you, the human. Now the dog, not so much…
Paul in KY
@Hazel: Pit bulls generally do not ‘nip’.
Paul in KY
@ixnay: This is true only in cold climates. Dogs are made for cold weather & do not have the cooling system that people & other animals who developed in very hot climates have.
You run a dog for an hour in Houston (for example), you’re going to kill that dog.
Paul in KY
@JoyceH: Am begining to think sister is keeping the animal.
Paul in KY
@JoyfulA: I’ve had an African ion do that to me. Quite a weird feeling. Was glad when I was out of animal’s cage.
JR
@simple: Some of my best friends love their toy poodles and shih tzus. I prefer dogs with larger brains. My experience with smaller dogs is that they’re hyperactive, temperamental, and destructive. My experience with larger dogs is that they’re better attuned to people’s personalities, cause less mess, stay calmer, and keep the bed warmer. I’d rather have a dog that doesn’t irritate me, given the choice.
@Corner Stone: If by that you mean we train our dogs, don’t leave doors and gates open, and keep them on leashes when they’re not in enclosed spaces, then guilty as charged, I suppose. But that’s what every dog owner should do as a matter of course: it’s responsible pet ownership 101. The only difference is you have this weird presumption that if we didn’t act responsibly then our pets would be out slaughtering the innocent instead of, you know, getting hit by cars.
Paul in KY
@Citizen_X: If you go back far enough, we are members of the great apes (say 5 million years or so).
Paul in KY
@Daffodil’s Mom: All dogs can/do so that.
moderateindy
@Keith P.: I think this is the key. The problem I have with pits is that many lines have been bred for fighting. If you don’t know where the dog came from, it is truly a crapshoot, with the results often being very tragic. On the other hand if you do know the bloodline, and it hasn’t been bred for aggression, pits are great dogs.
Personally, although my current pup is a border collie, I prefer mutts.
Paul in KY
@Mike Jones: A siberian is capable of killing you, if it got you good in the neck on a sneak attack or something like that.
simple
@JR: So while we can’t use anecdotal evidence to condemn a breed, we can use it to determine personality traits based on size? That seems inconsistent. Also, it brings to mind the line you tried to deride me with earlier (I assumed you found it important since you bolded it): different dogs have different personalities. Or does that hold only for large breeds?
LiberalTarian
Well, I love my Pearl. But, here you go.
http://Www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/breedinfo.html
Basically a call to never trust your dog not to fight and to understand that it’s always going to be your fault if anything happens.
I never wanted a pit mix. But she was given away in a grocery store parking lot and the kids were told to dump her by the road side at 10 weeks.
She’s my dog. I love her. I’m not putting her down for no reason. I’m prepared to put her down if a reason is there, but I’m going to do my best to protect her from … What? Provocation? Boredom? She’s already fixed. All her shots. Well mannered on her leash. Trained to do simple commands and to come when she is called, every time. But she’s not going the way of the neglected dangerous pits and the oblivious owners I’ve seen described here. For her own sake.
I am going to get her typed though. How much pit DNA is too much?
Billy Ripken
The story of the pitbull isn’t a tale of a vicious breed of dog, its a story about poverty and inner-city culture in America.
If you’ve ever spent any time in the not-so-nice parts of an American city – you’ll see that pitbull owners are not a particularly diverse bunch. In downtown Atlanta, Baltimore, DC, Newark, Bridgeport – you’ll see pitbulls tied out in tiny yards, trained to be aggressive toward unfamiliar faces as “guard dogs”, beaten when disobedient, pulling their owners around on the leash, turned loose if an owner gets tired of caring for one, NEVER neutered, and bred indiscriminately for income or just because a female dog wasn’t properly kept indoors when she was in heat. This doesn’t even mention dog fighting, which I’d like to think is a rarity these days.
When you look at the dog bite statistics this is your ground zero. Urban environment where people and their animals are packed tightly together – check. Un-neutered male pitbulls – check. What the studies can’t talk about or control for is the owners. These aren’t responsible dog owners betrayed by some genetic aspect of their otherwise lovable pooch. These are irresponsible owners training dogs (not breeding dogs) to be menacing and tough, mistreating and abusing them, who happen to like pitbulls.
To the commenters who wondered why people would choose to rescue pitbulls when “so many other loving dogs that aren’t killers need adoption” – you legitimately have no idea what you are talking about and I encourage you to learn more about animal shelters outside of your suburban or rural bubble. Pitbull rescues have (thankfully) grown in recent years because for a VERY long time there was an abundance of pitbulls and pitbull mixes at shelters that would be put down because a) these types of dogs are popular in parts of the country where animal life is cheap, and b) nobody wanted to adopt a breed that had that kind of stigma attached.
When I volunteered at a shelter in Baltimore – they used to joke about the fact that it was damn near impossible to find a mutt in this city that didn’t have some portion of pitbull in him or her. So, 90% of the dogs in your shelter are pitbulls or pit mixes – but “there are so many other loveable, non-dangerous dogs that need homes too.” Bullshit, if you live anywhere near a major U.S. city.