There’s an interesting article by Dara Lind at Vox alleging that Bernie Sanders’ appeal to progressives is limited to economic inequality-focused progressives rather than social justice liberals who are animated more by racial inequality. Here’s an excerpt:
For other progressives — many of them black or Latino — economic inequality is important, but so is racial inequality. They’re extremely concerned about racial bias in policing, and about ending mass incarceration. They’re concerned about the treatment of unauthorized immigrants, and about protecting voting rights… And Bernie Sanders doesn’t speak to those concerns. He didn’t mention those issues in his campaign launch yesterday, or in his email announcement to his supporters last month, and they’re not on the issues page of his website.
This isn’t an accidental oversight. These simply aren’t issues Sanders is passionate about in the way he’s passionate about economic injustice. When my colleague Andrew Prokop profiled Sanders last year, he pointed out astutely that Sanders’s career has been “laser-focused on checking the power of the wealthy above all else.” Sanders believes in racial equality, sure, but he believes it will only come as the result of economic equality. To him, focusing on racial issues first is merely treating the symptom, not the disease.
The article goes on to mention that Hillary Clinton is aware of this gap, which is why she’s specifically addressing social justice issues in addition to economic inequality, as is Martin O’Malley. (Lind also mentions the deficits those two candidates might have to overcome to make the sale — past baggage for Clinton and fallout from Baltimore for O’Malley.)
I’m not sure it’s fair to imply that social justice issues are not that important to Sanders. His personal history (SNCC member, March on Washington participant, etc.) seems to indicate he cares a lot about racial inequality. He said the SCOTUS “turned back the clock on equality” when it overturned the Voting Rights Act provisions a couple of years back. More recently, Sanders was in Selma with John Lewis for the march anniversary, and he made the following statement:
“The election of the first African-American president is a sign of the nation’s progress in the past half century,” Sanders said. “But we also know that much more needs to be done. Today, African American unemployment is double the national average while African American household income is $17,000 less. The struggle for racial and economic justice continues.”
That last sentence above is the nut of the matter, and it goes to a point Lind made in the article: Sanders probably does see social injustice as a symptom rather than a cause. I don’t think he’s wrong about that either, but I’m aware that many folks disagree on that point and believe that white supremacy is an end rather than a means.
Do you think this is as big a problem for Sanders as Lind says it is? What can he do to reassure social justice-focused progressives that he shares their concerns?
JMG
Democratic candidates can’t win no matter how left they are. Some lefty purist will always say they’re not the right kind of progressive.
May I suggest that if Sanders stresses economic injustice rather than race relations, it’s because he’s always run for election in a state with a population about 99-plus percent white? He’s using the themes that have worked for him before, as all pols do.
Tree With Water
My advice to Sanders vis a vis Clinton mirrors the advice I’d give the democratic partisans about the republican party. It is encapsulated in this historically accurate utterance of Ulysses Grant during the battle of the Wilderness:
“Oh, I am heartily sick of hearing what Lee is going to do. Some of you always seem to think that he is going to turn a double somersault, and land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. Go back to your command, and try to think what we are going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do.”
Lolis
I will support him strongly in the primary. I’m excited about his candidacy because I think it will make Hillary take more liberal stances. I also think his ideas will be proven to appeal to large groups of Americans, not just lefties.
NotMax
No one seems to mention the inherent obstacle of Sanders being Jewish.
(Not to me, nor to others here I’m sure, but to ignore that it is an obstacle in many quarters is to deny the unfortunate reality.)
Betty Cracker
@JMG: Could be as simple as that, but now that he’s appealing to a more diverse electorate, it might make sense to speak to social justice issues. It’s not like there aren’t plenty of teachable moments on that score in the headlines daily, and I do think Sanders’ heart is in the right place, as much as it is possible for an observer to know such a thing.
JMG
Further rant. Vox is a very good thing for we readers. But Lind’s take shows the abiding weakness of the form, the need for daily click-bait hot takes. A day or so of reflection might have led to the author or editors seeing the essential silliness of the article’s premise.
srv
All your other pet single-issues are pretty meaningless if the best your kids can look forward to is the basement or a trailer park.
c u n d gulag
MLK Jr. was concerned about both racial and economic justice.
It’s not too late for Bernie to go back, take a look at King’s speeches, and incorporate some of them in his appearances.
I wish Bernie was 10 years younger, because I think that’s going to become an issue. Even Reagan was younger when facing reelection, than Bernie will be standing for election.
It won’t bother me. But I’m sure it’s a concern.
A Sanders/Warren or Sherrod Brown or Ron Wyden ticket, would sure be appealing to me!
But, it won’t happen.
I wish it could. But I sincerely doubt it.
Jeffro
Disagree that this is a problem for Sanders…he is fighting the right fight at the right time. He won’t win the nom of course but having him in there in lieu of Warren will help keep the discussion focused where it should be.
Linnaeus
Perception is reality in politics (as it is in a lot of other things too), so while I do think that Sanders does view racial equality as significant, I do think it would be wise for him to speak more explicitly about those issues.
Cacti
This is probably the biggest limitation I see in candidate Sanders’ ability to appeal the Democratic big tent.
As Senator from a state that is 49th in total population, and 96.7% non-hispanic white, issues of racial injustice are barely a blip on the radar.
In that sense, I think Martin O’Malley starts in a much stronger position as the alternative to Hillary candidate.
Linnaeus
@NotMax:
Do you think antisemitism would be a problem for Sanders in the Democratic primary? I could see it being an obstacle in the general, were he to be the Democratic nominee.
Chris
Can’t really say, so I’ll be interested to read the responses on this thread from anyone who’s not white or male. I’m both (also straight, cis, Christian and native-born). So I can relate to Bernie Sanders, in that economics is the bottom line of Why I’m A Democrat for me – I can relate to people who have trouble paying bills, finding work, or just keeping their heads above the water, but I can’t say I relate to being a second-class citizen on account of skin color, or having politicians trying to control my sex life, or being terrified that half my family’s going to be deported if the cops stumble across them. But I absolutely think we need politicians who can, and who say so loudly and often, because focusing on economics alone doesn’t do it anymore, both on practical and moral grounds.
Really, focusing on economics alone hasn’t cut it for at least half a century. Obama’s electoral successes show the way forward. I think a huge part of his success is that he was widely seen as a guy who “got it” on the social issues that these nonwhite communities care about, obviously because he was nonwhite himself, but equally because of his years as a community organizer. Democrats need to keep the parts of the base that turned out for him energized.
jl
If Sanders thinks all the woes of racism, and bigotry of many kinds, are caused solely by economic inequality, then I disagree with Sanders on that issue. But I do think that economic inequality, lack of opportunity, and economic progress greatly exacerbates underlying racism and bigotry. I think the corporate and GOP strategy of divide and conquer the ‘lesser’ people of all races, ethnicities, religions, and geographies (I’m thinking rural, suburban, urban groups) is real, and it works.
I also think that one of the principal failings (or maybe better, symptoms of corruption) of our corporate news media, and pundit class, is that they ignore this source of social tension. So, I think more emphasis on economic deprivation as one of the causes of social tensions and racial/ethnic injustice is a good idea, since it has been so ignored in public debate. Or dismissed as softy liberal coddling of criminals.
I don’t think BC’s question is the only way to look at it. I have no argument right now why any social-justice focused progressive should support Sanders other than the argument above. We will have to see how well Sanders can make the case. Having a vision and trying to convince people of your vision is one of the main reasons that I can see that would make the ordeal of running for office worthwhile. That viewpoint is almost extinct in public discussion of politics, because I believe almost none of the miserable cynical corporate hacks with minds all of an a millimeter wide can understand it.
Let’s see how Sanders does. I think most people will give Sanders a chance. Sanders has to show understanding and empathy, and agree that there are important social-justice issues to solve. He can;t go Nader on race, ethnicity, environment, etc. But unless Sanders shows himself to be oblivious or dismissive, I think most people, not only self identified progressives, will be interested in hearing Sanders make his case.
If people are tired of personal, nepotistic and clubby dynasties, Sanders is about the the only interesting thing going on right now, other than the GOP freak show.
Tree With Water
@NotMax: Then again, wouldn’t his election portend the day of Armageddon (“but with a happy ending”) that republican party faithful are always braying about? I’d think they’d welcome Bernie with open arms…
JGabriel
Betty Cracker:
I think it’s problem for Sanders in the primaries, but not as big a problem as Lind thinks – primarily because Clinton carries some racial baggage from the 2008 primary against Obama.
I don’t think it will be a problem in the general election though, if Sanders makes it that far. Bernie’s civil rights record is so far beyond any Republican that it would be hilarious – if the consequences of GOP intransigence weren’t so tragic.
Cacti
@Jeffro:
I couldn’t disagree with the above assessment more.
Unless Sanders shows an ability to connect with a group besides passionate, middle to upper middle class, white liberals, his discussion of economic issues will go as far as similar discussions from Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich. Two candidates with similar messages, and zero support outside of the same group.
catclub
@NotMax: Do you mean he might not win the Presidency because of this?!
And here I was making reservations for the Inaugural Ball.
trollhattan
In other campaign news, this time from the Extreme Douche Faction: Rih returneth.
Nothing more uplifting than being scolded by a Republican, and nobody scolds more better than Rih.
CaseyL
I think Bernie Sanders should play to his strengths and keep talking about what he knows best and is most enthusiastic about. His unfeigned, uncrafted, un-focus grouped talks are a big advantage.
If would be foolish of him to throw away that realness by trying to become all things to all Democrats and/or lefties.
JGabriel
@NotMax:
So Republicans will call Bernie Sanders “commie socialist Jew”? Maybe it’s an obstacle, but certainly less so than being a “commie socialist foreign-born gun-hating Islamic crypto-terrorist” named Barack Hussein Obama.
jl
@JGabriel: Something more along the lines of ‘rootless cosmopolitan’. Or they could get really nasty and call him a Swede.
Betty Cracker
@jl:
Sanders can speak for himself, but my guess is he believes racism, bigotry, misogyny, etc., are very real issues that need to be addressed on their own terms but that they exist primarily to facilitate theft and enable power grabs. In other words, they are instruments in the plutocrats’ toolkit.
Chris
@JGabriel:
Knowing Republicans, I suspect their solution to Sanders’ Jewishness will be having Bibi make loud and disappointed pronouncements about how he’s a bad/false Jew (not a friend to Israel, etc).
Citizen Alan
@NotMax:
I’m embarrassed to say that I never knew before now that he was Jewish. I never thought of Sanders being a Jewish name (which, I know, is a sign of passive bigotry — obviously, not all Jews are named Lieberman or Feinstein).
Tree With Water
@catclub: You can stay home that night instead, and watch the movie, Mr Smith Goes To Washington. What was it Jimmy Stewart said towards the end of his filibuster? Is it, “It’s the hopeless causes that you should fight for the hardest”?
Disclaimer: for the first time since donating to John ‘At Least He Alluded To Poverty’ Edwards, I have donated to a presidential candidate. In homage to a mentor, should Sanders win I will apply for the post of ambassador to American Samoa.
Villago Delenda Est
Economic justice and social justice should go hand in hand. I don’t see a problem here, really. It’s just more idiotic mainstream media bullshit designed to advance the old “Democrats in disarray” narrative.
Cacti
@CaseyL:
So keeping it real consists of ignoring the vital interests of non-white voters who are essential to Dem electoral success?
Jay C
@NotMax:
And who, then is going to bring that up? If the political structure of the USA could deal with having Joe Lieberman (a far more “Jewish” Jew than Bernie Sanders) on a national ticket in 2000 – without sparking any pogroms, AFAICT – I think it can deal with Sanders’ religion. Of course, given the Senator’s long history of unabashed leftism (by American standards), I think his religion would be WAY down the list of opposition talking-points.
Kay
I think people make this division too stark. On economic issue after economic issue, AA and Latinos are hit harder under policies that benefit only the top 10%:
The same is true for minimum wage workers. “contingent” workers (temps and wrongly classified ‘contractors’)- it doesn’t matter where you look, there’s always a disproportionate harm. That’s the connection.
“Middle class” wages don’t just benefit one generation. They ripple to the next generation, who have the benefit of growing up middle class and sometimes receive actual assets from middle class parents. This is a compounding disproportionate harm- it gets worse over time, not better.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris: “Self-hating” Jew for failure to give a full-throated endorsement of Likud racism and militarism.
David Koch
3,400 words in yesterday’s speech and not one time did Sanders mention immigration, gay rights, pay equity, mass incarceration (which he voted for), and out of control cops murdering Blacks.
Living in rural vermont for 50 years has isolated him from the rest of the country.
Blacks, Latinos, Women, Gays won’t vote for you if ignore them and don’t ask for their votes.
Citizen Alan
@jl:
I dunno. I’ve always been drawn to the aphorism that “Racism is just another trick the aristocracy came up with to keep the house servants and the field slaves fighting instead of uniting.”
askew
I think Sanders was tone deaf at best yesterday for giving an announcement speech full of policy without even mentioning criminal justice or immigration issues. It was made worse by the fact that he gave his speech to an almost entirely white audience. I think he is going to struggle with appealing to minority voters.
O’Malley won all of his races in Maryland with a coalition very similar to the Obama coalition. He got significant African-American support in his races including primaries against African-American candidates. He also has the best record of any of the three on criminal justice and immigration issues. He has to be able to cut through the noise in the media about Baltimore to be able to talk about his record though. It was supported by minorities in Baltimore time and time again. And he has a great narrative to run on.
Hillary’s actual record on criminal justice issues is to the right of O’Malley. She supported the the death penalty, 3 strikes laws, etc. And Hillary supported zero tolerance and went even further than O’Malley did as First Lady supporting Bill’s crime bill. Plus, O’Malley repealed death penalty, decriminalized marijuana, restored voting rights for ex-felons, etc. as Governor. Hillary didn’t do anything in the Senate to try to change her tough on crime positions.
The biggest problem for Hillary is on immigration. She has flip-flopped on most of the big issues and is on record with some ugly rhetoric about immigration. Immigration is probably O’Malley’s strongest issue. He is passionate about it and has been pro-immigration for years.
If O’Malley can get some traction and a fair shake in the media, he is going to cause serious issue for Hillary with immigration and criminal justice issues.
Linnaeus
@CaseyL:
I don’t think it’s a matter of being all things to all people, but rather that there are certain core issues and core values that any serious Democratic candidate should be able to speak to. Certainly a candidate is going to be stronger on some things compared to others, but she or he should have at least clear stances on each of the core issues.
Chris
@jl:
Yeah, I agree. I certainly don’t think a Sanders campaign will be bad for the Democrats, just that it shouldn’t just be about economics.
(My thing with the Clintons isn’t “nepotism” so much as their proximity to the DLC/Third Way wing of the party – hell, Bill practically invented that, or at least he sanctified it with his “the era of small government is over” line – which really, really needs to die in a fire. Hillary isn’t Bill and politicians often change their spots as the Overton Window shifts, but it never hurts to have someone who, if nothing else, is forcing them to articulate their changes).
askew
@c u n d gulag:
Dems aren’t going to run two white guys on a ticket. If Sanders or O’Malley wins the nod, the VP will be a woman or a minority.
Bobby Thomson
Marxism-Leninism always exhorted that race and religion were lines that divided the working class and that class solidarity would eventually blur and obliterate those lines.
the Conster
As someone on twitter pointed out, there are 19 GOP candidates, and they’re all opposed to gay marriage. Over 60% of the country supports it, and about half the states already allow it. All the Dem candidates are starting from a base in reality and will be discussing real, important, and relevant issues to most people. The media has it in for Clinton which worries me a little, but since the clown car keeps honking and squealing and making all the clown noises, let them out stupid each other for the next year. Hillary has nothing to lose by laying low.
Citizen Alan
@Jay C:
Lieberman’s Jewishness was offset by his Republicanism.
Linnaeus
@Kay:
I agree with this, and I think this is a good way to make the connection explicit. “Social justice” issues and “economic issues” are often intertwined.
Cacti
@Linnaeus:
African-Americans voted 94% for the Democratic candidate in 2012. Hispanic Americans voted for them at 71%.
Any Dem candidate who ignores issues of systemic racial injustice does so at their own peril.
c u n d gulag
@askew:
True.
David Koch
It’s also really weird how Sanders is a NRA gun nut.
After the Sand Hook massacre, he opposed an assault weapons ban, saying, “there’s an elitism in the anti-gun movement.”
Does anyone think keeping combat weapons off streets and playgrounds makes you “elitist”?
maya
@NotMax:
As we all know by now, that was the primary reason why 5 SCOTUSes gave the election to Bush in 2000 – to keep a Jew from being a heart beat away from the presidency.
Citizen Alan
@askew:
I find it incredible to think that O’Malley can gain traction on civil rights and police brutality issues when it was his adoption of the “broken windows” theory in Baltimore that laid the groundwork for the recent social upheaval there.
Bobby Thomson
@trollhattan: they misspelled Virginia.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
Well, yeah, definitely that.
The best liberal reform movements do both. The New Deal era might’ve been mostly about economics, but I think it also served as sort of a de facto civil rights movement for a lot of the big city immigrants (Italian, Polish, Greek, Jewish) who made up the union base of the New Deal coalition, and became fully integrated into society in the thirty years or so following the Depression (“became white.”) The sixties is remembered as the civil rights era, but Johnson’s other big achievements besides the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act were Medicare and Medicaid. Etc.
Kay
@Linnaeus:
You tell me- social justice or economic justice:
http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17982/chicago_armored_truck_employees_say_they_were_fired_for_participating_in_fi
She actually got a double whammy. They fired her for legally protected organizing activity and they were stealing from her anyway- she’s probably wrongly classified so they don’t have to pay her overtime. She’s a single mother. How does that affect her son’s prospects? I would say it does-directly.
It ripples. It’s connected.
Benw
BERNIE/MICHELLE 2016. Social justice perception problems SOLVED.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: I agree with you that it is difficult for those of us who being lampooned by “Stuff Whitr People Like” (Shut up, it’s actually pretty cool stuff. I like a lot of it) to opine on BCs question. That being said, issues like raising wages affect people across the board – it’s not a white issue.
Linnaeus
@Kay:
Again, I agree. Economic justice is social justice.
Tree With Water
@Jay C: Millions of Americans cast their votes for a man who professes belief that an angel that introduced itself as Moroni brought the word of God to Joesph Smith.
In 1829.
Bernie’s pedigree is impeccable in comparison. I discount his being Jewish as an major impediment in his race for the presidency, if indeed it’s one at all.
ThresherK
@Chris: Ah, but what is the equivalent of “Bad Dem Catholic!No wafer for you!” going to be?
Betty Cracker
@Kay: That’s pretty much my take as well. Sanders has always been focused on economic inequality, and it’s very much a message that resonates with minority groups, who are the most screwed by galloping plutocracy. But he’ll need to make that clearer to broaden his appeal, I think. He can do it. He has a history on social justice issues too.
msdc
Yes, he did such a bang-up job in Baltimore.
askew
@Citizen Alan:
His policies in Baltimore brought crime down significantly, were backed by the AA population in Baltimore time and time again. And his zero tolerance policy is absolutely not what triggered the riots in Baltimore alone. Police brutality in Baltimore is what triggered the riots along with economic issues. Under O’Malley as Mayor, police brutality fell significantly and he was praised by civil rights leaders for his work in this area as well as increasing drug rehab in and out of prison and for reducing crime. Baltimore was a crime-ridden shithole when he took it over. When he left in 2007, crime was reduced and economics were improving. To solely blame O’Malley for Baltimore riots when he hasn’t been mayor there since 2007 is patently absurd.
Cacti
@David Koch:
I’m fine with giving candidates grief where they’ve supported something that they should really hang their heads in shame. In Hillary’s case, she’s deserved all the jeers she got for voting for the IWR.
In Bernie’s case, his vote against the Brady bill is indefensible.
Jeffro
@Cacti: Times have changed. Economic inequality is much a bigger issue, being discussed much more openly & frequently, than it has been in the past couple of decades. Even the Republicans know this. You noted it yourself:
Unless Sanders shows an ability to connect with a group besides passionate, middle to upper middle class, white liberals, his discussion of economic issues will go as far as similar discussions from Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich. Two candidates with similar messages, and zero support outside of the same group.
Wouldn’t that ‘group’ include working class people of all colors, young people, and women – all disproportionately impacted by inequality? It’s not a hard connection for voters to make, and it broadens the party’s appeal. No reason why the “Obama coalition” wouldn’t stay with this message and possibly even appeal to others who have been left behind these past 35 years.
It’s also not really important in regards to Sanders: he’s not going to win the nom. It’s just important that someone in the party makes the argument for more income and wealth fairness, and that Dems in general are seen as the party fighting for that fairness.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Fucking typing on a fucking phone.
Brachiator
The key problem here is that focusing on checking the power of the wealthy is not quite the same thing as helping the poor and the middle class. And even though yes, we all know that almost all wealthy people are vomitous cretins, some not poor people not only want to do well, they wouldn’t mind being, well, you know, wealthy, if the opportunity arose.
This will also not do anything to excite most non-voters, who don’t think that any political party gives a damn about them.
Like James Carville once said, “it’s the economy, stupid.” People who don’t have jobs, want jobs. People in crappy jobs want better jobs. People with stagnant wages want a chance to improve them.
If he truly believes this, his candidacy is deader than a door nail.
This reminds me of the worst of some of the white communists (deftly skewered in the works or Richard Wright and Ralph Ellison) who would condescend to “explain” racism and exploitation to blacks and Latinos.
Kay
Here’s the “contingent worker” analysis from the GAO- temps, fake ‘contractors’, people with absolutely no benefits and no labor protections, not even those protectionscontained in the “employee” designation. The worst work in the country, and it’s growing:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/669766.pdf
They aren’t old white college-educated hippies. They aren’t Chris Mattews “lunchbucket” white men from 1974. They’re young and they’re more black and brown than Vermont is.
askew
@msdc:
He did. Under O’Malley, crime fell significantly, police brutality also fell to decade lows, open-air drug markets were closed and the city was safer.
It’s really easy to look at Baltimore’s recent problems and blame it on a policy enacted in 1999 that has long been stopped. It’s a lot harder to actually look at what Baltimore was like in 1999 and what it was like when O’Malley left in 2007. He was praised by civil rights and minority leaders in Baltimore for improving the city and even his harshest critics will say they don’t want to go back to a Baltimore that existed before O’Malley’s tenure as Mayor.
And he is better than Hillary and Bernie on criminal justice issues. All three of them backed zero tolerance laws. Bernie and Hillary both voted for the 1994 crime bill which is worse than what O’Malley did in Baltimore. O’Malley also repealed the death penalty and commuted remaining death row prisoners to life sentences. He decriminalized marijuana. He restored voting rights for ex-felons. All of these things are stuff Hillary and Bernie never did.
At the end of the day, O’Malley can vote to real accomplishments on immigration and criminal justice issues. Bernie and Hillary have rhetoric. They didn’t have to lead on these issues.
Bobby Thomson
@Citizen Alan: people weren’t sure he would sign marijuana decriminalization because of his tough on crime reputation.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
The really best example of it is the Fight for Fifteen movement. Best of all, it’s effective
They got that on the front page and they did it by showing up. They are a very diverse crowd. When that started people were jeering at 15. Sanders is now up to what, 20? :)
The best info I could find was it cost 20 million dollars to run that campaign- a labor union reported funding it. That’s a small amount of money for such a big impact. Aging hippies won’t benefit from that. Younger people will.
askew
@Kay:
That’s nice. But, that doesn’t give Bernie a pass to ignore civil justice or immigration issues.
O’Malley has already been talking about executive orders for changing overtime rules. He’s talked about increasing the minimum wage to $15. Both have talked about expanding Social Security. One key difference – O’Malley’s talked about investing in urban areas and a jobs program for urban areas. Sanders hasn’t been talking about that.
Sanders and O’Malley are both going to say the right things on economic issues. O’Malley has the record of accomplishments to go with most of that rhetoric. Sanders has the votes in Congress. But, in order to appeal to the base, they are going to need to understand criminal justice, civil rights and immigration issues. I know O’Malley understands those issues and is passionate about them. I am not sure Sanders does.
David Koch
Even Chris Hayes, perhaps Sander’s strongest supporter in the media, said Sanders made a big mistake yesterday with his narrow speech.
Bobby Thomson
@askew: O’Malley didn’t have to and couldn’t lead on immigration under the US Constitution. And he didn’t repeal capital punishment. The Maryland legislature did.
Woodrow/Asim
Economic Justice is part of Social Justice. You can be privileged economically, and still get your black ass pulled over, just this time in a BMW instead of a beater.
For all that Clinton spent a lot of ’08 pissing off people of African decent, she seems to get what to say, this time ’round. Having spent time in Western Mass for college, I’m not sanguine that Sanders’ll get how to speak to these issues, anytime soon. There’s an utterly wrong-headed ideal ’round those parts (and many others) that everyone in America getting a living wage’ll magically solve issues around ethnic identity and discrimination.
It won’t, no moreso that closing the gender wage gap auto-magically solves gender discrimination, or that homosexual marriage is solving all LBGT issues.
Unless Sanders speaks to those points in a strong voice, he’s going to lose key portions of the Democratic coalition. And that loses him any chance at getting a voice in the process — much less actually winning the nomination.
Elizabelle
OT: Applause, applause, applause for Nebraska.
Which has just abolished the death penalty. Its legislature overrode its Republican governor’s veto.
WTG Nebraska!
Phoebe
All I have is anecdotal evidence, but my anecdotal evidence says this is an attempt to manufacture a narrative that either doesn’t exist on the ground or that only exists among a tiny fraction of the social justice activists to whom it’s attributed. The ones I work with are universally Sanders supporters, and as best I can tell each and every one of them arrived there independently of one another.
Brachiator
@Jeffro:
“Inequality” is an abstraction, and at best a result of complex forces.
Ask the average man or woman, “Do you want to be more equal to the wealthy?” and they will rightfully look at you like you’re a fool. How, exactly, does “relieving the impact of inequality” get a guy a job, get a woman a house for her family, put bread on the table or get someone to work?
Should I really give a crap that the head of google and Apple or Lebron James are worth millions?
The issue of inequality is important at a macroeconomic level, but as a concept to the average man or woman, it is as meaningful as quantitative easing.
Cacti
Bernie seems like a decent and well-intentioned fellow, so I think his omission boils down to one thing.
He’s never had to speak to issues affecting minorities, because he’s never had to work for their votes in any meaningful way. Vermont is 1% black and 1.5% Hispanic, and for most his political career were less than 1% each of the state population.
askew
@Bobby Thomson:
O’Malley has been pushing for a death penalty appeal for over a decade. He was the driving force behind the legislature taking it up again when they didn’t want to. He also commuted the remaining death row prisoners as his last act as Governor. This is an issue he is passionate on and even his detractors give him credit for it.
And yes, O’Malley led on immigration in his state. As Governor, he signed the state DREAM Act. He spoke up against the Obama admin when they wanted to send child refugees back to Central America without due process. He convened a council of social service and faith groups to provide a plan to give these refugees foster homes and support. Maryland ended up taking in more refugees per capita than any state. He gave driver’s licenses to undocumented Americans. He ordered Baltimore jail to stop holding immigrants without criminal charges in jail until ICE could take custody of them. A move applauded by ACLU. Immigration groups called O’Malley the most pro-immigration governor in the country for his actions.
different-church-lady
Well, I just knew something would be wrong with Sanders!
It’s amazing — he doesn’t even get 24 hours before the “progressives” get their cues about how he’s inadequate.
ruemara
@srv: fuck you. Alive in a trailer versus dead for existing is what POCs are dealing with. Moron.
askew
@Woodrow/Asim:
I think Hillary’s rhetoric is fine this time around but she is going to have problems if she ever has to face real questions about her positions on criminal justice or immigration. I’d love to hear what she thinks about 3 strike laws, decriminalizing marijuana and the death penalty now. She’s taking on the easy positions right now. Let’s see if her leftward shift exists on more controversial topics.
Also, she has said some awful things on immigrants in her Senate campaigns, she voted to build that stupid wall on the U.S./Mexico border, and her rhetoric in the 2008 campaign wasn’t much better.
Jay C
@Elizabelle:
Yep: even if Gov. Ricketts’ veto had the distinctive odor of political theater about it: the repeal bill had passed the Lege by a veto-proof margin three times : whatever his own beliefs, the veto HAD to be pretty much pro forma. Doesn’t take away from the positives, though: WTG indeed!!
Cacti
@ruemara:
Ding ding ding ding ding!
Spoken like someone who’s never had to worry whether a random encounter with the police could cost the lives of them or their family members.
Goblue72
All voters have a self-interest in getting ahead economically.
Only a portion of voters have a self-interest in advancing civil rights protections.
Put another way, an African-American lesbian has a self-interest in policies that provide her a raise at her job or access to a better job.
A straight white male doesn’t have a self-interest in racial profiling by police.
I’m not saying it’s right – I’m just saying what is. Politics isn’t church or the means to achieve some Platonic ideal of ourselves. Politics is the acquisition of power without the use of force of arms.
Elizabelle
@different-church-lady: Yup. I’m staying away from the circular firing squad.
Whenever I hear a Villager concern trolling about a Dem candidate’s “inadequacy”, I think “but most persuadable voters realize the Republican side is lunatics.”
We seem to have more GOP lunatics in the race than original colonies.
Mr. Santorum is announcing today, I think. No word on how many crying children may attend.
And that nice Carly Fiorina is traveling around, trolling Hillary.
Kay
@Linnaeus:
One of the things I loved about Coates’ “reperations” piece was how tangible it was. It was about property. Who gets to own it, how it increases in value. how that value pays benefits to the next generation. He looked at what happened over time, how the original economic system was racially biased and that inequity compounded each and every year, because that’s how money works.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@different-church-lady:
Please take your condensation elsewhere.
Mike in NC
Perhaps Sanders is pro-gun because rural Vermont attracts lots of hunters.
At any rate, his chances of being elected are exactly zero. Republicans aren’t the only ones who launch vanity campaigns.
Betty Cracker
@Woodrow/Asim:
Does anyone really believe that?
Tree With Water
Can Hillary win over social progressives?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_b0obdnXfqg
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: I am pretty that the politicians who are talking about inequality are also getting behind specific measures such as raising the minimum wage. OTOH while discussing shit on a blog using the term inequality conveys meaning while avoiding people having to type out tedious lists. One could also say social justice is just a meaningless term absent some anchoring actions. But people don’t do that either because people generally aren’t douchecanoes.
Betty Cracker
@Steeplejack (tablet): What you did there. It was seen.
Cacti
@Mike in NC:
Rural Vermont?
Isn’t that redundant?
Brachiator
@Kay:
74 pages. Quite a report. But I was looking for something like this, and am glad that I ran across your post. Thanks for the link.
I’d throw in that these jobs are not always the worst work. But employers look for ways to get workers at the lowest possible cost, and categorizing them (often falsely) as contract workers rather than as regular employees saves a lot of payroll costs.
different-church-lady
@Tree With Water:
No. Nobody can win over social progressives. The moment anyone announces a candidacy they become unacceptable.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh you kidder you!
lol
Sanders and Clinton were in the Senate together for 2 years and differed on 31 votes.
Some votes Sanders is better, other votes Clinton is better. Kind of a wash.
Kay
@askew:
I don’t know why you think Clinton has such a tough road on immigration. Jeb Bush supports reform and so do half the CEO’s in the country. I don’t know why she’d shy away from it.
Immigration activists were furious with Obama beginning in 2009 and continuing to his executive order. They’re still mad at the deportions. If it;s this giant deal-breaker you’d think they would have made that clear in 2012.
Kay
@Brachiator:
I think it’s sometimes portrayed as “fresh out of college, just doing this work until my real career starts!” and really it’s much bigger (and worse) than that. It’s trending, too.
lol
@Mike in NC:
I think there’s a lot of constructive value in Sanders running, and I say this as someone completely in the tank for Clinton. The press hates her so they’re going to feel compelled to talk about her opponent… which means his core issues are going to get play and that’s only a good thing.
Elizabelle
OT again: efgoldman’s brilliant daughter is on Jeopardy tonight. May we have a thread to root for her, later on?
FWIW, Jeopardy’s on in DC at 7:30 p.
Tree With Water
@different-church-lady: I disagree. Think back to LBJ and his arch enemy RFK, both confronting poverty and declaring it a cancer to be vanquished. People- especially those who fight the good fight- responded en masse. And that was in 1968, when the economy was flush, and the war on the middle class still 12 years down the road.
different-church-lady
@Tree With Water: “Progressives” have changed a great deal since then.
different-church-lady
@Steeplejack (tablet): I will… fax… my cadenza… to… Cole…
Baud
This is shaping up to be the most liberal Democratic primary in recent history.
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sadly, this is not the case. And even discussions about minimum wage get bogged down into nonsense discussions about whether raising the minimum wage will kill jobs (there was a vote to raise the minimum wage in Los Angeles to $15 an hour, and to mandate 12 paid leave days for all workers).
As much as I like Obama, I have not seen much direction in his ability to push a bold job building economic policy. There has been the warmed over sauce of infrastructure investment and making some tax credits permanent. One manifesto I’ve seen attributed to Bernie Sanders is not much better.
“Income inequality” has become an almost meaningless buzz word that at best separates one group from another on the political divide.
People understand you real well when you talk about throwing some motherfvckng murdering cops in jail for killing black people. Much better than bland BS about “social justice,” which as you note, is best reserved for polite blogging.
Bobby Thomson
@lol: yep.
David Koch
if we raised the general economic standards for everyone, unarmed blacks sitting in a cars won’t have to worry about being shot 137 times in Cleveland, gays in the south won’t have to worry about getting fired for being gay, latinos won’t have live in fear of their parents being deported, moms will no longer have to worry about their kindergartners being machine gunned during nap time, and Lilly Leddbetter won’t have to worry about women on making 73 cents on the dollar.
They should turn this into an ad. I know, it could start like this: “I like to buy the world a coke and live in harmony.”
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Thanks for the reminder. I almost forgot.
askew
@Kay:
After Obama/Dems not doing enough on immigration while they held Congress and his delays in issuing executive orders, I think Latinos are going to be looking for more than empty rhetoric. And that’s all Hillary has to offer. As Senator, she never pushed hard for immigration reform. She voted for it but it wasn’t an issue she led on. She voted for funding that stupid US/Mexico border wall. She opposed driver’s licenses for undocumented Americans.
In 2003, she even went so far as to attack immigrants saying:
She callously wanted to send child refugees back to Central America. Since many were fleeing the Honduras government she helped put into place as SoS, her position was really repugnant.
She is now saying the right things, but Latino leaders have to see if they can trust her. In 2008, they called her out for being mostly silent on immigration or wish-washy.
O’Malley, on the other hand, has been a strong advocate for immigration for years as Mayor and Governor. He has been credited by multiple Latino organizations as being the most pro-immigrant Governor and for really understanding Latino issues. He has real accomplishments to run on and not just empty campaign rhetoric.
Now, that isn’t going to matter unless he can survive long enough to get to the Nevada caucus and if he gets a fair hearing. With Univision president going all in for Hillary, that is pretty questionable unfortunately.
Brachiator
@Kay:
Classifying workers incorrectly is a big source of small business tax fraud. And depending more on contingent workers is a big way of exploiting labor, and as you note, it’s not “fresh out of college” workers that are affected here.
different-church-lady
Came for the Sanders bashing, stayed for the Hillary bashing.
goblue72
@Mike in NC: I wouldn’t describe it as Vermont attracting hunters per se. Its more that Vermont is REALLY rural, from top to bottom. Hunting to put food on the table as a supplement to whatever meager earnings you’ve cobbled together from farming and your second and third odd-jobs is kind of a way of life in the Green Mountain State. Vermont isn’t a state filled with gun nuts with action hero fetishes like Texas. Its filled with a LOT of gun owners for whom gun = food and gun = keep that wildlife from eating my crops.
If you’ve ever driven through the Northeast Kingdom in Vermont, you know what I mean in terms of feeling really really far from anything that could be labeled urban, suburban or even exurban. Its just farm, farm, farm, tiny little village green, farm, farm, farm, tiny little village green, farm, farm farm…and whole lot of tiny country roads with really old looking wooden bridges crossing the periodic stream.
Kay
@David Koch:
Well, David, Bernie Sanders and every other Democrat who is running in ’16 would have a stronger hand on a whole range of issues if Democrats weren’t defending another crappy trade deal for the next 6 months.
At some point someone is going to have to explain to me why we veered off into “let’s redefine Mitch McConnell’s trade deal as progressive!” or how that’s a laser-like focus on social justice or economic justice or any other kind of justice.
Maybe they could work on that overtime rule we were promised 4 years ago, or sick leave, or student loan relief, since tying the trade deal to “jobs!” doesn’t seem to be working.
askew
@Kay:
This is one area I agree with you on. I don’t know what Obama was thinking in pushing the TPA/TPP now except he wants it done on his watch. Instead of talking about jobs, infrastructure, education or quite frankly anything else we are debating a shitty trade deal that is splitting our coalition in 1/2.
Kay
@Brachiator:
I think it has to be addressed too, because tax fraud affects the safety net for working people- and THOSE working people are more likely to need a safety net.
Don’t even get me started on workers comp. They’re gutting that too. It’s a state issue, but come on- we all know where injured workers are going if they can’t rely on workers comp- they’re going to social safety net programs. It’s just one more way to shift risk from business to the public.
Keith G
Ah hell….I’m a just gonna wait ’til the ol guy actually revs up a campaign until I wonder about such things.
Elizabelle
@Baud: I think it would be fun to watch it together, for those who are available.
JPL
@askew:
Hillary was in no position to vote for that bill.
also.. sorry if it has been mentioned.. I am just now reading the comments
Kay
@askew:
That’s what Keith Ellison said. It’s not so much the trade deal it’s the lost focus on what he believes voters care about. I think that comes across to voters as “they’re not listening to us” and that’s bad for Democrats, social justice or otherwise.
Elizabelle
@Kay: I almost wonder if the TPP should wait until 2017, when it’s very possible we’ll have a better congress as well as a Dem in the White House.
It’s good to see Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren helping to reorient the Democratic debate.
fuckwit
Sanders is right: economic issues are the cause not the symptom. However, it’s complex in the USA becuse ever since the Southern Strategy and Atwater, the right wing has been using economic violence to accomplish racist ends. In other words, they don’t attack black people, they attack “welfare”. But , you know, who “those people” are. It’s unsaid and understood.
So, in that case, the cause of the economic violence, for some, is racism.
Sanders, of course, can turn this around, perhaps by specifically calling the right wing out. WHY does the right wing attack the poor so viciously? Is it because they are of color? I think if he presses hard on his economic issues, the racism of his opponents will become clear as day.
trollhattan
Can’t help but pasting in Pierce’s happy dance over Rih entering the race. Forgive me, but here goes….
ShadeTail
Economic and social injustice are tied together in complex and twisted ways, and addressing only one can get you a lot of mileage on the other. But thinking that either is just a symptom of the other is a huge over-simplification, and that attitude just won’t solve the entire problem. I really hope that Sanders isn’t so simple-minded on this matter as the article implies he is.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
I think he wants it because he thinks he’ll negotiate a better deal than the next President, and business interests want the deal, so there will be one.
I just don’t think that justification helps Democrats, and I resent the way they framed it- as if anyone who is opposed to it is some kind of ill-informed dolt or self-interested.
I don’t believe that. I think Trumpka and Sherrod Brown know a hell of a lot about trade deals. I’m baffled by why they would go after the Democratic Senator from Ohio and labor leaders on trade. WTF? The only thing I can think of is it helps to firm up GOP support (which is what they really need- they don’t need a lot of Democrats) and that’s a bad reason.
jl
My big fear is that, with almost 24 whole hours, and one whole announcement speech into his campaign, may not be enough time to turn ‘it’ (that is, opinion on one Vox blog post) around.
Brachiator
Here’s a little tidbit from the Guardian on the butcher’s bill for trying to get TPP passed:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/27/corporations-paid-us-senators-fast-track-tpp
askew
@Kay:
Ellison isn’t wrong here unlike his comments about how great Rand Paul is where he was dead wrong.
Tree With Water
@different-church-lady: One thing has certainly changed, and it is the political narrative that poverty is an enemy of all the people. It was put to death by those democrats who adhere to the dictum, “The era of big government is over”. If nothing else, Sanders offers up refreshing alternatives to the dead-end realities imposed on the rank and file by that disgraceful capitulation.
Baud
@Brachiator:
That sounds like a click-bait analysis. Although money in the system is a problem, I’m skeptical that the timing of the contributions matches up that directly with the timing of the debate.
Chris T.
Does A cause B, or does B cause A? Neither: A reinforces B and B reinforces A.
Specifically, racial injustice causes economic injustice which causes racial injustice which, etc. You must treat both.
Kay
@Brachiator:
It’s kind of a big thing at the Department of Labor. It has all kinds of implications for regulation and taxes and (probably!) a stronger social safety net because it’s truly economic insecurity.
Kay
@Chris T.:
I agree. I think it’s really complicated. I’m sure Sanders does too.
different-church-lady
@Kay: Personal experience tells me that when a company falls under certain conditions, they are already obligated to treat their “on demand” workers as payroll workers.
At the end of a year, my taxes are a thick bouillabaisse of W-2 withholding and 1099 statements. Paperwork-wise it’s hell to work through, but the advantage is that even though all my income is done “freelance”, I don’t end up paying self-employment taxes on roughly half of it.
As I understand it, these rules were put in place to prevent companies from making up their entire workforce out of freelancers, thus getting out of paying their share of payroll taxes.
Bill
I don’t know how anyone can look at the campaign Clinton ran against Obama in 08 and think she’s better than Sanders on racial issues.
Bernie is the best choice on both racial and economic equality.
Baud
@Bill: Most people are going to focus on what she says in this campaign. If she talks about these issues, and Sanders doesn’t, she’ll have the advantage.
Kay
@different-church-lady:
What they’re looking at though is “misclassification” so deliberately not following the rules, or skating really close.
Labor laws and rules are outdated. They need to be updated. I think the fear is for Democrats that it’s never a good time to update them, because Republicans are so extreme now any protections for workers will be portrayed as job killing. The patchy old ones are better than any new GOP version.
I have people here who literally do not know who they work for. They’ll tell me the name of the place and then if we get into details they work for a contractor “out of” an employer- they’re temps. They don’t know they don’t have the legal protections that “employees” have.
I kind of rank local employers on levels of asshole-ishness and greed depending on how few people they actually “employ” versus how many people work for them.
rikyrah
if you are a Democrat and don’t bring up:
1. The school to prison pipeline
2. The Prison Industrial Complex
then you are just talking noise.
David Koch
@Kay: Kay, the thesis of the thread asks if Sanders made a mistake by ignoring social justice.
And even fellow proud socialist Chris Hayes (Sanders’s biggest supporter) says Sander’s blew it by ignoring immigration, pay equity, gun violence, gay rights, criminal cops, and mass incarceration.
As to paid leave and overtime: there are plenty of articles on the efforts on google all the time. Here’s one from yesterday. You can act as if there is no news, but that is not true.
There was a big article last week on the new overtime rules coming
and he did paid leave 4 months ago.
Elizabelle
New thread up.
Jeopardy with efgoldman’s daughter as contestant. Come root with us!
rikyrah
@Kay:
Kay for the win. As always on these issues.
David Koch
The response on this thread has been interesting.
BernieBots who can’t abide a critical word against Sanders dismiss the message and attack the messenger. Same old same old.
rikyrah
@David Koch:
Absolutely on point.
Kathleen
@rikyrah: Thank you.
Kay
@David Koch:
Overtime rules have been “coming” for 4 years. The longer they let lobbyists take a crack at them the weaker they will be.
The (actual) push for minimum wage increases didn’t come from DC. It came from 20,000 minimum wage workers going out into the street.
It’s pretty ridiculous to give DC Democrats credit, but I guess it’s more socially acceptable than crediting labor unions (who funded it) and the actual people who walked off (who took all the risk).
They couldn’t get pre-k thru in the new NCLB bill out of the senate so they’re doing the same thing- they’re taking credit for every local and state initiative on pre-k. Sorry. Not buying it.
David Koch
@Kay I’m sure when Obummer saved the auto industry and millions of union jobs, when only a meager 17% of the country supported the bailout and republicans were saying “let it go bankrupt”, it had something to do with putting labor in a favorable position to fund those activities. But nobody remembers that, for that would be an inconvenient fact.
You say Obummer doesn’t do anything, but I will remain in a realty based community, where article after article have proven such charges to be incorrect.
Now that the facts are out of the way, let the emotional obama bashing resume.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: Wow. What will you do from January 20, 2016 forward? Walk the earth and tend shrines?
nellcote
L.A. labor leaders seek minimum wage exemption for firms with union workers
Labor leaders, who were among the strongest supporters of the citywide minimum wage increase approved last week by the Los Angeles City Council, are advocating last-minute changes to the law that could create an exemption for companies with unionized workforces.
The push to include an exception to the mandated wage increase for companies that let their employees collectively bargain was the latest unexpected detour as the city nears approval of its landmark legislation to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2020.
For much of the past eight months, labor activists have argued against special considerations for business owners, such as restaurateurs, who said they would have trouble complying with the mandated pay increase.
But Rusty Hicks, who heads the county Federation of Labor and helps lead the Raise the Wage coalition, said Tuesday night that companies with workers represented by unions should have leeway to negotiate a wage below that mandated by the law.
“With a collective bargaining agreement, a business owner and the employees negotiate an agreement that works for them both. The agreement allows each party to prioritize what is important to them,” Hicks said in a statement. “This provision gives the parties the option, the freedom, to negotiate that agreement. And that is a good thing.”…
Jeffro
@Brachiator: It’s not a real hard concept to grasp for most…ymmv…
Jeffro
@fuckwit: Seconded on all points.
David Koch
@Betty Cracker: on jan 20 2016 I’ll be watching college basketball and prepping for the NFL playoffs. on jan 20 2017 I’ll be at a party celebrating and laughing at the republicans for losing their 3rd straight landslide election and for losing the popular vote in 6 of the 7 elections.
Tripod
Inequality-focused progressives ≠ organized labor.
Socialist Grandpa is a bit too wacky for the unions. They’ll line up behind the most middle of the road, boring, Democratic party loyalist. Bring on Hillary!
Full metal Wingnut
@JMG: I remember reading that a former friend of Sanders’ stopped speaking to him after he stumped for Mondale in ’84. Like, I get that Mondale didn’t exactly run as a socialist but still, would he not have been better than 4 more years of Reagan?
It seems to me that quitting the Liberty Union party in the late 70s (which I believe he had earlier helped found or was at least an early member of) was probably one of the most important turning points in Sanders’ career, and what separates him from most other people he worked with in his socialist/leftist agitating days. That is, Bernie discovered pragmatism. And it’s gotten him this far, and most importantly, a larger forum for his views. Compare Bernie’s accomplishments to those of his purity police friends who abandoned him for campaigning for Mondale (or any number of other trivial purity reasons savvy people realize are inevitable and not important). Who has done more to advance left causes? Hell, whose name do you actually know?
Sanders lost 4 straight elections and won his first mayoral term by 10 votes. He learned the hard way that you can do more by actually getting into office than by policing your friends’ purity and remaining content with marginalization.
hidflect
Hillary’s mechanical claw is scrabbling around blindly in the cellar looking for policy positions she can latch onto by the ankle and drag back to her pod to devour for more political strength. Does she really believe she’s going to have any credibility with the peon class (voters) after decades of silence? What’s she gonna do? Bling bling her jewelry up a notch and rap some rhymes about inner city blight? FFS.