I was pretty sure I was going to vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary, but establishment media’s anti-Hillary jihad (detailed well here and here) is making me want to become a die-hard Hillary supporter.
Is anyone else experiencing this feeling?
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[…] week, Doug asked if any other Hillary skeptics were being pulled in her direction by the non-stop absurdity and […]
guachi
Yes. Tribalism at its best/worst.
Clinton winning would drive the right wing crazy and that makes me happy.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Oh hell yes. NOBODY has gotten this level of abuse from the MSM this early on, which means they are scared shitless of her.
catclub
Political Animal just had a post pointing out that many think a Sanders nomination would be great if he won the presidency, but a disaster if he did not. Then mentioned not liking to play with matches in an armory.
It then looked at polling and electibility. At present he polls 8% below Walker. Unknown factor? 28% undecided.
I think it would be a tough slog to elect him president.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Not yet, but I always figured the feeling would eventually (ETA) take hold.
Ed Kilgore cites the only general election poll he’s seen that includes Sanders
Yatsuno
If Bernie wants to run in the Democratic primary he should at least do the courtesy of registering as a Democrat. Regardless of how you feel about the two parties, the fact is many people work very hard to put that system into place. To come in and use that structure just to further your own ego (which is all I think this is) is ridiculous.
Mr. Prosser
I agree. It seems that HRC does some things that don’t help her (private e-mails) but the arrogant dips just ride roughshod.
Betty Cracker
Did anyone see HRC’s CNN interview? I didn’t, but die-hard PUMA fangrrrl Taylor Marsh seems to think it was a disaster.
Barry
@Mr. Prosser: “I agree. It seems that HRC does some things that don’t help her (private e-mails) but the arrogant dips just ride roughshod.”
They *all* do stuff like that. People here can post a far more – well, evil – list of deeds performed by any of the leading GOP Klowns, off of the top of their heads.
catclub
@CONGRATULATIONS!: in “The Hunting of the President”, the first movers were opposed to Clinton, but later on, it was an employment project for Arkansas storytellers. Some may be scared, others may see continuing jobs, since every wackaloon claim has to be reported on.
Bill
No.
p.a.
@catclub: well he is a Sociallist. Most ‘Murcans don’t know what it is, but they know they don’t like it.
Wonder what his name recognition is outside the blogopolitical complex?
dubo
I do, but then I remind myself HRC surrounds herself with the likes if Mark Penn and Lanny Davis and it passed
Belafon
Do like I’m doing: Pick the candidate you would like to win (which happens to be Clinton for me), and then, which ever candidate is chosen, become a die-hard supporter in the general election.
It’s annoying that the press treats them differently, but I’m not sure there’s much you can do except make sure a Republican doesn’t end up winning.
MattF
I got to know some Washington media types back in the ’90’s, and as a consequence, I’ve always been presumptively pro-Clinton– for both him and her. I also took it as given that the favorable press she got while SoS was an outlier, and that primal OCD instincts would prevail when a Presidential campaign was in the offing.
Origuy
@Yatsuno: There’s no party registration in Vermont. How would he do that? You can’t join a party like you can join AAA.
bg
Getting there.
Love Bernie, but “socialist”
Valdivia
Yep. She has also earned my respect because she is running a smart campaign. The leaks have stopped which is driving the press mad (see the article today about her echo chamber, because even local people will not get off the reservation and dish like they used to). Her positions are also much closer to mine this time around than last time (ie her focus on voting rights which is close to #1 for me)
The lengths to which the Village will go and the ridiculous articles about how she is dooooomed! and certain to lose the primary now have me cheering hard for her.
different-church-lady
Aaron, if she picke five reporters at random an kicked them in the shins she’d probably gain 10 approval points.
Belafon
@Betty Cracker: This person liked it, and the event associated with it: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/07/1400130/-Hillary-s-Great-Day.
cmorenc
Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, between them, represent the heart and soul of the progressive wing of the democratic party, and the passionate support he’s receiving is helping strongly influence Hillary Clinton in that direction. However, he will not, in the end, win the democratic nomination, unless Hillary screws it all up, which won’t…um, probably won’t happen this time, even though it certainly did back in 2008. As popular as many of Bernie’s actual positions are with the American electorate, he might be able to beat one of the more extreme, nutty GOP nominees, but if the GOP ends up nominating Jeb! after all, they are so locked into the longstanding (and false) notion that Bush is a mainstream moderate, that they’d happily facilitate painting Sanders as a grey-haired American Che Guevara by fall 2016.
Clinton’s going to be the nominee – but in the end, Sanders and Warren do the democratic party a huge favor by holding her feet to the progressive fire (reinforced by the fact that she seems to realize she needs to attract and hold as much of the coalition that turned out for Obama twice as possible) – and fortunately she has several months left to ramp up her learning curve on how to connect with them.
Sanders running is terrific for the democratic party – Sanders being the nominee – probably the country isn’t ready to elect him, even though they like quite a few of his policies, so long as they don’t come with an overt “socialist” label.
? Martin
@Yatsuno: He can’t. There are no party registrations in Vermont. From the SOS website:
Bernie is what he calls himself. That’s as official as it gets in Vermont.
AdamK
I’ll wait and see what seems more strategic by the time the Ohio primary comes around. Hillary needs to learn to fake sincerity pretty soon. She just comes off as phony and noncommittal with Sanders out there talkin straight.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Barry: The email thing bothers me because it suggests she’s still letting her paranoid (and not unjustified) resentment lead her to listen to the lesser angels of her nature and circle (vote for the war, hire Mark Penn, get mad!), but I’d love to hear one of EvenTheLiberal pundits tut-tutting about it explain to me what there is to it beyond optics and appearances and feeding a narrative.
OzarkHillbilly
Anybody else notice how completely apesh!t they went over the Clinton charities but never mentioned a peep about the Bush family charities? Now, I happen to think questions needed to be asked, and answered, but should not the press be demanding the Bush’s release a list of their donors?
Belafon
@dubo:
Neither of which are with her campaign. As I was telling my kids last night when we were talking about Clinton and Sanders, some people can’t seem to get over the fact thiat it’s not 2008.
geg6
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Yup. I agree.
And yes, Doug, I feel ya. I love Bernie’s policies and was never a Hillbot. But they (the media, mostly) are making me one. Whoever wrote the article I read yesterday (I think it was in Politico?!?!?!?!) about the five rules for covering the Clintons is my newest hero, which means he’ll probably lose his job any minute now.
Princess
Yup. It helps that the Hillary people are playing this the smart way — being respectful of Bernie’s candidacy and saying they expected a hard-fought race.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
That must mean it was awesome.
Karmus
For me, it’s Sanders all the way in the primary. Once that’s over, it’s the Democratic winner all the way, assuming it isn’t Kang or Kodos.
I have nothing at all against H. Clinton, but the democratic socialist has me actually somewhat excited.
JMG
She’s going to be the nominee. My guess is she’ll receive Sanders’ enthusiastic endorsement sometime after the South Carolina primary. I was a newspaper reporter and columnist for 30 years, and if I’d ever operated in the way Allen describes in his Vox piece I’d have hung myself in shame. Why don’t media outlets take the reporters off beats where you have to know something to do your job (foreign, police, local government, even sports) and -put them on the campaign beat once every four years to replace the venal narcissistic ignorami they currently employ there.
geg6
@dubo:
Give her credit for learning. She’s currently got pretty much every Obot hired on this time.
different-church-lady
@catclub:
Fuckin’ things that aren’t rocket science: how do they work?
NCSteve
Don’t want to, no. But that’s exactly what’s happening to me.
SP
Vote however you want based on whatever policy/personal motivations you have- want to see a woman president, want more liberal policies, whatever. Don’t vote on “electability” because you have no fucking clue who is electable. That was the argument for Kerry over all his opponents, that turned out great, didn’t it? (I had no problem supporting Kerry in the general but the idea that you vote for someone because you think you know whether other people will vote for him/her is stupid.)
kindness
Of course most of us would prefer Sanders. It’s a ‘Duh!’ question. However while I am confident Hillary would cream any Republican in a presidential race, I do not have that same confidence with Sanders. In fact I am pretty sure Sanders would lose a general election. Many factors involve Sanders refusal to go negative on opposition candidates, Sanders past statements are easily taken out of context, Sanders is a (moderate) Socialist. All reasons I like him for but see that it would hurt him in a general election.
If he’s nominated I will vote for him. If Hillary is nominated I will vote for her. That’s where I’m at.
catclub
@Origuy: Then how come is Patrick Leahy a Democrat from Vermont? Or how was Jim Jeffords a Republican until he switched to independent?
different-church-lady
@p.a.:
Oh, like those people matter?
/nutroots
Bobby B.
As a highly paid pundit I predict that Team Hillary will have neutralized the Sanders Anomaly by the end of the Kali Yuga cycle.
Mike J
@? Martin:
And he won’t call himself a member of the party he wants to lead.
different-church-lady
@kindness: You left out “the general electorate does not consist solely of progressive base.”
geg6
@geg6:
I was wrong. It wasn’t in Politico, it was in Vox. Which is kinda like six of one and a half dozen of the other. Sorry not-so-young-anymore Ezra. You’re just another bloviator now.
Another Holocene Human
@Barry: *cough* jeb! *hack*
raven
New York Stock Exchange has halted trading in all stocks. NYSE says it’s ‘temporary’ and more information to come.
catclub
@geg6:
I read an extract from the WaPo that very nearly put the words “Treason in defense of Slavery” all together. I had been waiting to see that. (It was not the person who had the five rules.)
dedc79
As the last few weeks have again reminded us, probably the single most important thing that President does is appoint Supreme Court justices. While my expectations for Clinton are decidedly low, I am very confident she won’t disappoint us with her Supreme Court appointments.
Were any of the 57 republican candidates to win the presidency, SCOTUS would move even further to the right, jeopardizing every progressive advancement from the past 80 or so years.
I want Sanders to stick around and hold Clinton’s feet to the fire a bit. But eventually we’ll all have little choice but to rally around Clinton.
Bex
A friend’s FB page is loaded with “Bernie’s winning, Hillary’s scared yada yada” every day. There’s a survey out that matches your agreement with various candidates both R and D. Most of this person’s friends agree 98-99% with Bernie. I admit I wasn’t that far behind. However, and I’ve explained this in the comments a couple thousand times, that doesn’t translate into a winning presidential candidate. Bernie might squeak out a win against Satan (the guy in the red suit, not the clown car wannabes) but I doubt it.
Another Holocene Human
@geg6: Nope, Vox, thankfully.
different-church-lady
@? Martin: The hell? Anyone can join a political party in any state. They just won’t get recognized as such for the purpose of voting in Vermont.
Things that aren’t rocket science are hard, apparently.
catclub
@raven: Huh? no mention in google news. google business
KG
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: for me, the email issue is not a big deal but it does show a lack of judgment on Clinton’s part. In the modern professional world, everyone knows you have at least two emails – you have a work email and a personal one. You try not to mix the two. Either she doesn’t understand this (which is crazy in and of itself) or she simply decided not to do what millions of people do on a regular basis. And if she didn’t understand it and nobody told her that it should be done that way, then things are really fucked up
But I’m also not a fan of Clinton and haven’t ever really been a fan of her’s.
rita forsyth
going to vote for Hillary if I have to crawl to the polls there is no on no one on the republican side who I can or would vote for, will not help defeat her in any way not now not ever!!!!!
Lavocat
No.
EconWatcher
Not a fan. Don’t worry, I know what the other side’s selling, and I’ll do my duty. But you can’t make me like it.
By the way, I’ll knock on wood right after I type this, but the Republican clown car this year is so laughable, I just can’t picture any of them as a serious threat. Yeah, they’ll pull the automatic 45% or so, but beyond that, I’m just not seeing it.
Valdivia
Hey is this the day the computer overlords were scheduled to take over? Because the NYSE is down after the United grounding, both computer issues.
pete
@Yatsuno: I think it’s unfair to say that Bernie is just in it for ego. Like Warren, who is not running, he’s pushing a policy agenda, and the interesting part right now is that (as far as Hillary goes) he’s pushing on a door that’s opening. Put bluntly, thanks to Sanders, Clinton can tack left and still present herself as the sensible centrist alternative, which is pretty smart politics. It could all go wrong, it’s way too early, but right now I feel pretty hopeful about the Presidential race, so the Senate becomes the top priority.
Goblue72
I’m a socialist, so…no.
kbuttle
The only feeling I experience around this is hopeful joy every time I see a DougJ byline on a post.
I see Republicans doing and saying crazy sh*t and try to extract delicious pleasure from it the DougJ way . . . but sometimes a guy needs that guidance from the master. Particularly when the ‘doing and saying crazy sh*t’ is so relentless.
burnspbesq
If Bernie is on the ballot for the CA primary, i will absolutely vote for him. But yes, the shameful treatment that HRC is getting from the media pisses me off. If she is the nominee, i will bust my ass helping get her elected.
Just remember this, emoprogs: sitting out 2016 is, in effect, a vote to put Janice Rogers Brown in RBG’s seat on the Supreme Court. Is your purity worth that?
OzarkHillbilly
@geg6: Vox: Confessions of a Clinton reporter: The media’s 5 unspoken rules for covering Hillary
Betty Cracker
@raven: Sounds ominous, no?
Bex
@catclub: Looks like the Chinese bubble burst.
Valdivia
Apparently WSJ is down as well. This must be some hyper coordinated sort of denial of service attack no?
aimai
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: How can it be paranoid resentment when, if it exists, its grounded in reality? I really don’t see HRC as at all resentful. She and Clinton and Obama and Michelle have managed to work really hard at what they do without letting the ankle biters in the press and the incredibly harsh attacks by republicans faze them in the least. I just don’t see Clinton as particularly resentful or paranoid at all. She’s cautious, and she knows she is under attack, but that’s just a pretty good estimate of the situation.
Snarki, child of Loki
Strategic primary voting: Write in JEB BUSH.
Establish his ‘RINO’ creds.
Another Holocene Human
@JMG: I hate these journalists who think they can make or break an election. Fuck. Off.
Another Holocene Human
@geg6:
Best news I’ve heard all week.
catclub
@Valdivia: Ok, now I see it.
And he market values are continuing to adjust – because NYSE does not dominate trading. I _think_ it is less than 30%,
and all those dark pools are the rest.
different-church-lady
@Valdivia: We’re still here, so how coordinated could it possibly be?
Walker
You can tell that the media is not treating Bernie seriously, because they are not covering his wife’s Burlington College scandal. That college will probably go under because of that land deal, and many people believe it benefited the (lawsuit-plagued) Catholic diocese over the college.
Another Holocene Human
@SP: Very good point. The GOP has fucked themselves voting for the “electable” one as well.
We are going through quite a demographic shift in this country and the conventional wisdom about elections is just plain wrong. You need numbers to win; pulling shit out of your ass doesn’t work any more, if it ever did.
catclub
@aimai:
Hurrah for NOT psychoanalyzing from afar!
Percysowner
@SP: Kerry was electable right until he decided that all he had to do was stand on his record and his legitimately earned war medals and the media would see through the Swiftboaters. If he had the Clinton mentality he would have fired back and fired back hard and quite possibly pulled it out. You have to factor electability in somewhere.
EconWatcher
@Bex:
China is melting down, but I think the NYSE thing is just an unrelated technical blip.
I’ve been watching the China financial markets with interest for 20 years (though I’m no expert), and I have never seen the Chinese authorities appear as panicky as they have in the last week. They have done crazy, crazy stuff that I don’t believe they’d do unless they thought they were facing a 1929-style meltdown.
Fasten you seatbelts–the ride is about to get interesting…
geg6
@pete:
I honestly think that is the real reason he’s running. Many months ago, I either saw or read an interview with him in which he sorta/kinda admitted as such. He just wants to make sure that progressive policy, specifically economic policy, was front and center in the race this time around. He said he would have no problem voting himself for whomever the Dems put up but that person had to be pushed to get the right policy promises and outcomes. If this is what he’s doing, I enthusiastically endorse the strategy. Even if it isn’t, I still heartily endorse the strategy.
Valdivia
@different-church-lady: :)
Maybe we are all bots.
Gin & Tonic
@catclub: Here.
jnfr
I had exactly that feeling this morning when I started reading the morning news and saw so many articles back-handing her. The media bias is so obvious that it just pisses me off.
And I’m a Bernie backer myself, though not a Hillary hater like some of my friends. The coverage definitely gets my dander up.
Another Holocene Human
@EconWatcher: Can’t wait for the 24/7 lie-spin about JEB Bush and his record.
I guess we’ll see how in the bag for the GOP the media really is. Based on the last few cycles, a lot.
J C
Hillary campaigned on NAFTA for her husband then lied about it, voted for the Iraq War, gives speeches to Wall Street allaying their fears she won’t really cut into their profits and worked HARD on the TPP. Bernie is against all that. Every democrat on the planet that has a brain should be for Bernie at this point. If he doesn’t pull it off then go with Hillary. She doesn’t need to be attacked during the primary, but she definitely needs to be moved a lot to the left.
It just amazes me that an ALMOST PERFECT DEMOCRATIC candidate comes along, inspires huge crowds, and you people still want a basically blue dog democrat.
It’s just mind blowing to me.
Joel
@Betty Cracker: maybe the PUMAs aren’t all that genuine?
Another Holocene Human
@burnspbesq:
You’ll find the emoprogs on the FacePlace, that way ======>
different-church-lady
@J C: Gosh, we’re so lucky only Democrats are allowed to vote in the general.
Another Holocene Human
@Valdivia: Actually, could be people slamming the mobile site trying to get info on what happened to NYSE.
DDOS or “farking” as it was once known.
geg6
@EconWatcher:
Yeah, my John and I were talking about this just this morning. He doesn’t spend the amount of time on the internet that I do and today was the first he’d heard about the possible bursting of the Chinese bubble. Told him I’d been reading hints and slightly panicky stuff online for at least a week now, if not longer.
Should be interesting. And another hit on the Donald, who has been in full panic mode that the Chinese are going to buy the entire country and enslave us all.
Elie
@Yatsuno:
I agree. Bernie is ok, but if he is using the Democratic system, he needs to become one.
SatanicPanic
I was always on board with Hillary. I’ll be honest, I don’t care that much about her personal policy positions, I think it’s more important that we have someone that can win. YMMV.
qwerty42
DougJ asks (re: HRC): “Is anyone else experiencing this feeling?”
Yes, this nutty horse race they think they are covering is really getting under my skin. I *like* Bernie, but if there is anything less than a huge win by HRC, they will spin it as a “loss” for her. They all seem to imagine they are the sage observers of the national scene, but it does not seem they actually know what they are writing. Do any of them understand surveys of voter behavior? Maybe if more had started in sports journalism, they would have *some* grasp of stats. Instead we get this bs you could get from a bunch of drunk undergraduates. And I won’t even get into their fear of offending the so-called “conservatives” (a bunch of radical nuts).
samiam
At least DougJ isn’t drinking the media koolaid like wonderboy Cole.
Is there ANYONE here that doesn’t believe Cole could be persuaded to vote for one of the Republican clowns over Hillary? I can almost guarantee you he would vote for the Fat Bastard Christie over Hillary. Not that the Fat Bastard has a chance. He could probably be persuaded to vote for Walker or even Jeb. Once a Republican always a Republican always a Republican.
Anyone who to voted for G Dubya twice could be talked into just about anything. His “I was young and dumb” then excuse is total horseshit. I don’t know how old he is now but he was probably near 30something then. People are not that young and dumb at that age so if he was dumb then he is still dumb now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@catclub: I don’t think you have to be a psychic or a psychiatrist to see resentment in, for instance, the way Hillary conducted herself in 2008, and while her resentment/dislike of what she correctly called the vast right-wing conspiracy is perfectly justified, it’s still there. And I haven’t wallowed in the email story, my understanding is that she has more or less said she didn’t use gov’t email because she didn’t want Congress pawing around in her correspondence.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
And neither does the GOP congress that she, or Bernie Sanders, will be dealing with for at least two years, and that’s a very optimistic scenario.
trollhattan
I’m guessing unless Bernie gets himself a campaign/media party bus and tireswing the village will tire of his prickly demeanor and temper. The first dozen times it’s “refreshing candor” but eventually they’ll decide it’s something else.
I’ll say this for Hillary, she’s demonstrated the ability to both evolve and grow. I think she’ll do just fine. (And for the love of god, just look at her competition.)
Another Holocene Human
@J C: Now that I’ve been lectured by J C, I’ve seen the light!
I was going to vote for Sanders in the primary to keep Hilary honest, but fake-progs like you are making me reconsider that.
I call you fake because you obviously don’t do shit to make the world a better place–because that is tough and difficult and painful and requires listening to other peoples’ points of view which you are clearly incapable of–you just wank about purity. What the world doesn’t need now, another emo-prog, singing la la la la la la la la la la.
cokane
Vox.com is hardly a news outlet at this point, let’s be honest.
EconWatcher
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The Clintons and Obama both get treated unfairly by the media.
The difference? Obama gives them virtually no genuine material to work with, so they just have to make s#!t up, and so it tends to get deflated quickly in the MSM.
But the Clintons? They play it close to the line, and feed their enemies just enough authentic grist to keep the chewing going forever.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
How many electoral votes do those huge crowds deliver?
Once again, the awesome power of the Balloon Juice Commentariat is all that stands athwart the great Kucinich-Dean-Warren-Sanders-Grayson Age of Progressivism!
JPL
Because of the media, I’ll vote for Hillary in the primary.
Another Holocene Human
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sanders had bad votes on a number of issues in the Senate yet none of these people wanking to him image seem to realize that. For purity voters, YOU SUCK. At least find out what you’re worshipping, damn!
Omnes Omnibus
@KG: She didn’t use her gmail account.
Kropadope
It’s not so much the media as my libertarian roommate who is making me consider her for the general.
Then this shit makes me reconsider. God knows that Hillary isn’t doing anything to change my mind.
RandomMonster
I consider myself a socialist, and love Bernie’s positions on most everything, but I’m supporting Hillary for electability reasons. With the Republicans making gains in the House and Senate, it’s too freaking important to hold the White House.
Another Holocene Human
Don’t forget John Edwards. Some Obama haters were in luuuuuuuurve with that guy.
SatanicPanic
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: True. I’m kind of fine with Hillary being a placeholder. Our history of presidents is full of those, and the country survived.
J.D. Rhoades
As I’ve said before, I’m not pro-Clinton so much as I am anti-stupid. It is rather amusing to see the wingnuts who loathe the “lamestream media” crying crocodile tears over the way Clinton is allegedly being mean to them.
Gin & Tonic
@J C: It just amazes me that an ALMOST PERFECT DEMOCRATIC candidate comes along
Pray tell, which part of him is shy of perfection? His support of guns? His racist dog-whistling about how gun ownership in Vermont is not at all like gun ownership in Chicago? the fact that he is *not actually a Democrat?*
Origuy
@catclub: My point is that he cannot “register” as a Democratic voter in Vermont. He can, and should, register as a Democratic candidate in the primaries. He could start calling himself a Democrat instead of a Socialist, but would that change anything? He still caucuses with the Democrats in Congress.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@samiam: You’re an idiot.
Archon
@EconWatcher:
I don’t think so, I think Wall Street pulled the plug on trading over fears on what’s happening in China right now.
Trinity
I feel the same way Doug. I am donating to HRC for the first time when I get my next paycheck.
Jade
@Yatsuno: Nope,
We accepted him in the caucus all of these years. He has been more loyal than a lot of DINO’s. RUN BERNIE RUN. The only candidate for the people.
We all know Hilary is an out of touch warmonger who will champion Corporations. Democrats have Stockholm syndrome.
We used to point and laugh at the Teabaggers because they voted against Obama rather than for policies that were in their interest.
Now you are advocating that we do the same thing.
Splitting Image
I’m more sympathetic to Clinton this time out, but I don’t think it’s because of anything the pundit class is doing. Clinton staffed her operation with incompetent cronies in 2008 and desperately needed some smartening up. She seems to be doing better this time out (no Mark Penns so far), so I’m happy to see her campaign play out.
I think that the main reason the pundits have the knives out for Clinton now is that she seems all but certain to be the Democratic nominee, but I don’t think that is a good reason to support her. They will happily transfer all of that hate to Sanders if he succeeds in bringing her down. Or to any other Democrat, with the possible exception of Andrew Cuomo.
The basic problem that the Democratic party has is that it is a coalition of people that the pundits don’t really think should be trusted with the levers of power: women, blacks, Hispanics, women, Jews, socialists, women, gays and lesbians and so forth. Anyone who rises to be the standard-bearer of the party will inevitably represent one or more of these groups (even white male Democrats are elected by the wrong people) and meet a wall of opposition from the pundits, who will wring their hands and pretend to worry that the party should have nominated someone else. Their goal is always to divide and conquer.
rikyrah
I don’t feel Bernie, because he doesn’t seem to be reaching out to me – the base of the Democratic Party. He’s made some decisions -particularly with regards to guns – that offend me, and he doubles down on the stupid to justify his actions.
He has not seen fit to campaign for the votes of the non-Whites of this party.
Say what you want about Hillary, and I don’t even like her, but at least she’s going through the motions.
Bernie has never had to campaign for non-White voters, and it shows.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
I like Bernie Sanders and agree with him on most everything but he will not be receiving my vote in the primary. I’ve learned enough over the years to know that the media will do anything they can to help elect a Republican because it’s better for their business. Republicans fuck shit up and start fights and that is content gold.
I’ve seen tons of stories about how strong Sanders is and how much he’s gaining on Clinton and they’re all written with one purpose – to elect a Republican.
Don’t fuck around with this. No one is getting any ponies. Vote for Hillary Clinton and defeat the crazies on the right because Dog help us if they have control of everything come Jan 20 2016.
BBA
@raven: These things happen. All of the exchanges and dark pools can trade all stocks listed on any exchange. If NYSE is down it matters to exchanges and stockbrokers but not so much to the outside world.
(Full disclosure: I work for one of NYSE’s competitors.)
Elie
I like Hillary much more than in the past and agree she is getting shit treatment from the media. She still sometimes makes my skin crawl with the tone of how she expresses herself, (kinda smug) and her thinking, but she has gotten better and a little looser. I will work my tail off for her because, as someone said upstring, I know what the other side is selling and that must not win. I am so-so on Bernie. He is running a low risk candidacy since I think even he knows he has no chance. That frees him up to be just himself. I like “himself” and his plain talk. I hope Hillary is able to use some of it to shape her positions more to my liking and with the right tone.
Elie
@rikyrah:
This also.
Rob
FWIW the Wall Street Journal’s website is having problems right now.
“WSJ.com is having technical difficulties. The full site will return shortly.”
Mike J
@Origuy:
I want him to stand up in public and say, “I am a Democrat.” That is literally the least he could do. No adjectives, no qualifications. Just tell me that he actually considers himself a member of my political party.
If he won’t do even that, fuck him.
SiubhanDuinne
@qwerty42:
Whereas Dubya’s 50.7 in 2004 was portrayed as a “mandate.”
catclub
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I also saw this in JC’s message:
and remembered what Adlai Stevenson said when told that every thinking person is for him.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus: nor did she bother to get a state.gov email. Had she done that, which seems like a pretty straight forward and obvious approach, it wouldn’t have ever been an issue
chopper
@J C:
there, i fixed that for you.
Keith G
I am not looking to vote for a friend or an ideological soul mate.
Which of the 20 some candidates who are running for the office of President of the United States in 2016 is the person best able to give me and my communities the policy planning and results that we need to be successful now and in the future?
Which of those individuals is the person who seems the best at not only addressing the policy needs I am interested in, but also has shown ability to handle the extraodinarily complicated administrative tasks of running one of the most complex human organization in the world?
By any measure I could comprehend, Hillary Clinton is that individual.
chopper
@catclub:
that’s president adlai stevenson, friend.
catclub
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
I would qualify this. 1)Many _think_ it will be better for business. 2)I am pretty sure that Roger Ailes knows that having a Democrat in the Whitehouse is far better for HIS business. 3) He still wants to elect a Republican.
Omnes Omnibus
@KG: Right, the fact that she did what every SoS in the email era had done marks her behavior as suspect. Kerry is the first SoS to have a .gov email address.
askew
No, that is a moronic reason to vote for anyone. But, it is truly amazing how much the Clintons and their supporters love playing the victim and blame-shifting to anyone else for their troubles.
A Ghost To Most
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
Love Bernie, but this is too important.
pamelabrown53
@Trinity: I donated to Hillary first time yesterday. Not only is she pilloried by the press but too many of the emoprog persuasion use the right wing memes to boost Bernie.
At least Hillary is working to sustain Obama’s winning coalition. That goes to electability in my book.
Kropadope
@Keith G:
Despite all the offices she has held and even opportunities to effect public policy while not holding public office, I can’t think of a single accomplishment. Care to point me in the right direction?
different-church-lady
@askew: How’s your man O’Malley doing?
wasabi gasp
Which is the more outlandish expectation? A Bernie win or a Hillary second term.
askew
@Betty Cracker:
Lordy, there is an unwelcome blast from the past. I am not the most impartial person when it comes to Hillary but I think the interview is about average for her. Hillary isn’t a very good politician and it showed in the interview. But, she wasn’t worse than usual. The interviewer didn’t help any by giving her such stupid questions to answer.
She did lie in the interview though when she said she only used the 1 device reason for why she used personal e-mail. There have already been emails released that showed she used an iPad to send e-mail. That is in addition to her Blackberry that she used. I have no idea why she’d tell such a stupid lie, but she did.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
Before she was SoS was an administration that was way too poorly run to institute professional standards. Let’s not hold our candidates to that standard.
She’s so much like the Republicans in many, many regards, yet everyone assures me she’ll be better than them.
dedc79
@Mike J:
Why does this matter? I could frankly care less about the Democratic Party as an institution. It just happens, for the time being at least, to (1) do an ok job of embracing progressive policies, and (2) be the only viable alternative to horrifyingly deranged Republican Party. So I guess I’m not so much a Democrat as someone who supports the Democratic Party until something better comes along. If things changed and a better party came along (or the Republican Party somehow evolved into a party that better reflected progressive ideals), I’d ditch the Democrats in a second.
I won’t vote for him for reasons discussed above, but Sanders strikes me as someone who far better represents and advocates progressive reforms than Clinton. And he’s a far better distillation of what the democratic party should stand for. His decision not to be beholden to the party as an institution strikes me as one of his more admirable qualities.
askew
@different-church-lady:
He’s polling at like 3% so not good. He just released the most progressive student loan/higher ed plan this morning and environmentalists have called his recently released climate change platform the gold standard. He’s also been the only one speaking up on the racist eviction of citizens in the Dominican Republic and led the way in pushing for allowing Puerto Rico to go through bankruptcy like any other state. Now, all he has to do is get some media attention and maybe voters might start listening.
But, at least he is talking about issues that matter and putting forth great progressive plans. Still a proud supporter.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus: Albright didn’t use email. Powell used a personal account during his tenure and under old rules (which was stupid), Rice had a state.gov email account that she used but apparently wasn’t a big email user. Again, this is just a common sense thing in this day and age. As I said, it’s not a big issue, but it does show a lack of judgment
Kropadope
@wasabi gasp:
A Democrat within 20 years after a Hillary presidency would be a surprise.
JPL
The President has been briefed on the NYSE halt. They said it was a systems issue, not a hack. United Airlines had a computer glitch this morning. hmmm
EconWatcher
@Keith G:
No disrespect, but I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
What extraordinarily complex human organization has she run? If you’re referring to the U.S. State Department, it’s well known that all administrative functions were devolved to a Deputy; she did essentially none of that. She was the front person, flying around (which is mostly what you’d expect the SOS to do, to be sure).
The largest, most complex, and most well-funded organization she’s ever actually run was her 2008 campaign. And her personnel decisions, planning, and ability to make adjustments did not appear impressive.
More: What did she actually achieve in the U.S. Senate, and as SOS?
She’s plainly not very deft in public speaking, or quick on her feet in reframing issues and questions, or other classic political skills.
I’ve said it before: She’s a policy wonk. DC is full of them, on congressional staffs and in agencies. They don’t end up heading presidential tickets.
dogwood
@rikyrah:
As a middle-aged white female Democrat, I would never vote for Bernie Sanders. Non-white voters are the backbone of the Party, and I’m not interested in any candidate who doesn’t seem to care about these groups. The stunt he pulled in Charleston the day after the massacre showed how out of touch he is. Hell, even morons like Trump and Bush cancelled events in SC.
Stillwater
I was pretty sure I was going to vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary, but establishment media’s anti-Hillary jihad (detailed well here and here) is making me want to become a die-hard Hillary supporter.
To accomplish what, exactly? This is like Cleeks Law applied to the MSM. DougJ supports whatever the MSM opposes, updated daily.
Go get em Doug!
askew
@Kropadope:
I asked a supporter or hers on twitter that same question after they mocked Sanders for a lack of accomplishment. They gave me a list of bills she led on in the Senate. One was a congressional resolution. The other 3 named a post office, a section of a highway and a park. That response has been retweeted multiple times by Hillary supporters as proof of her accomplishments. It’s kind of sad actually.
BruceFromOhio
@JMG:
This just screams for inclusion in the rotating tag lines for this site. Please consider it stolen.
Patricia Kayden
“Is anyone else experiencing this feeling?”
I’ve always been behind Secretary Clinton. I want another Dem in the WH. Secretary Clinton fits that bill so she’s got my vote. I love Senator Sanders but I’m not sure he’d win the general, which is all that matters.
SatanicPanic
@Kropadope: Nonsense. A Republican win at the WH in the next 20 years will be a surprise.
Cacti
The only person I’d feel good about casting a vote for in the primary would be Joe Biden, and he’s not even hinted at throwing his hat in the ring.
Pragmatically speaking, Hillary gives the party the best chance to hold the White House out of her, Sanders, O’Malley, and Webb.
Keith G
@Kropadope: The easy short answer is to have you focus on my word choice. “Most able to”…. If she were running against, say Joe Biden, that title would by rights go to him. She is not. Alas, Joe is not in the race.
I’m not picking Hillary Clinton as the perfect candidate, someone who can win over the strongest and best leadership we’ve ever had in this country. Her journey through life has shown me lots of toughness and lots of mistakes, and in the end I do respect that journey if not all of the choices therein.
If that is saying she’s the best of an imperfect collection, so be it.That’s often times good enough to become president United States.
askew
@geg6:
Not the ones that matter. The top Obama people aren’t in her campaign – Axelrod and Plouffe. I don’t think Cutler is either.
They also pushed the Obama people out already at her PAC and put in the old Clinton crew.
Another Holocene Human
@Splitting Image: This is so right. They are a case study in unconscious bias (and oh, so offended when called out on it).
Twitter is here, MSM. I will laugh at your umpteen meltdowns.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@dedc79:
And the Senate has to approve them.
We HAVE to flip the Senate back, otherwise it won’t matter who’s President. FIipping the House would be good, but we need a Democratic senate.
The Presidential race is important, yes, but Congressional races matter more. We can’t lose sight of that.
Mike J
@dedc79:
Bernie wants our money and our support.
Imagine if you wanted to buy a house and you went to the teacher’s credit union. “Are you a teacher?” “Education is the most important thing in the world!” “But are you a teacher?” “Our nation needs to invest in our children!” “But are you a teacher?” “I’m not one to argue about labels or ideology!”
pat
Let’s just hope that Bernie doesn’t decide to do a Nader and run as a third party candidate.
Another Holocene Human
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Au contraire, if Obama succeeds in moving the threshold for exempt workers out of the poverty wages level that is a lot of fucking ponies!!!
Omnes Omnibus
@pat: Do you think that Sanders would prefer a GOP win over a HRC win? Neither do I.
SatanicPanic
@EconWatcher:
But one is going to! I don’t get how people can be saying things like “no one likes her, she’s wooden, she sucks at relating to people” but all the while she’s in the lead. How can this be? Even if we accept that it’s all nostalgia for Bill Clinton… fine. Either way, she’s in the lead.
dogwood
@pat:
I don’t think he will do that. Nader is a narcissist, while Bernie’s just an angry old white guy.
Another Holocene Human
@dogwood: I missed that, please dish.
Keith G
@EconWatcher: Dude, I know that quickly blog writing all over lunch means I have to take shortcuts, but follow the words. I said “She has shown an ability to….” what I was getting at is that prospectively she can run an organization as complex as United States government …..more than anybody else in the current field I can think of.
And being as SoS is no small matter.
Kropadope
@Keith G: Decades of service with no discernible accomplishments? Doesn’t sound very able to me.
@SatanicPanic: Hillary, who has never moved the ball forward in her life, who embraces the Republican-MSM comfortable false narratives precisely when they cause the most harm, yet still never gets the benefit of the doubt from the propagandists she is propping up. With Hillary, both sides will actually do it an the Democrats can’t afford that.
pamelabrown53
: @Patricia Kayden: Sorta, kinda. But I do see her as killer smart and trying to hold together the Obama coalition. Frankly, it bugs me that Sanders has thus far not reached out to non-white constituents. It smacks of white privilege and condescension to decide for everyone that tackling income inequality solves everything. Non-whites have always experienced income inequality. This is not new news.
EconWatcher
@SatanicPanic:
We’re stuck with her, so we’ll make the best of it. But she plainly has the ability to blow an overwhelming lead through sheer ineptitude, inattention, and inablity to make adjustments, as we have all seen. That’s my problem and my worry.
Look, Obama is a phenomenon, but she would have beaten him if her personnel had actually gamed out the importance of the caucuses in amassing delegates. That’s unforgivable. And it’s on her.
Kropadope
@pat:
He has explicitly ruled that out, he will only run as a Democrat.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: You know, nobody in New Yawk seemed unhappy with Hilary when she left office there, and New Yawkers aren’t exactly shy about voicing their hate and contempt for politicians (see: Pataki, Cuomo fils, etc)
Whereas O’Malley’s Lt Gov got roundly rejected by the voters in MD. Now it could be they’re on a decade long racist, neo-confederate rager (I mean it IS MD, slave state and racist as fuck even though they declined to join the Confederacy, which makes the flag-humpers there look even stupider and that ugly cross’ status as a symbol of white supremacy more naked), or it could be that MD voters were really really pissed at O’Malley. Huh.
Cacti
@pamelabrown53:
The best comment I’ve seen about Bernie’s campaign approach to racial issues is “In Bernie’s world, Trayvon could have had an even bigger bag of Skittles.”
Emma
@samiam: He still won’t date you. Try the girl with the pigtails in the next desk.
SatanicPanic
@EconWatcher: Her campaign wasn’t that bad. She kept it competitive with Barack Obama. I know he started as an underdog, but that’s just because we weren’t aware of what a great politician he is. If BO hadn’t shown up she’d be president today.
Omnes Omnibus
@EconWatcher:
Or she lost to the most talented politician I have seen in my lifetime. Another way of framing it. She isn’t Obama. No one is.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: Didn’t Axelrod leave electoral politics to do something bipartisany and gross?
Oh my bad, wikipedia says he has been overcharging for questionable consulting in European political campaigns.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@pat: Sanders doesn’t strike me as the type who wants to burn the village (as opposed to the Village) in order to save it.
gf120581
@pat: He won’t do that. Bernie’s not an egoist like Nader is.
Another Holocene Human
@Kropadope: Give me a break. The fact that we can go into long debates about Hilary vs Obama during her tenure at State speaks to her involvement, influence, and political skills. You know who sucked as SoS? Condaleeza Rice. Although I’m sure other SoS’ historically have sucked more. Hilary Clinton was a very good SoS. I’m sure some people here like Kerry better. We can have that debate but one can hardly dismiss her tenure as unaccomplished. That’s fucking ridic.
Oh, and go ahead and compare every candidate to Obama, but you’re going to be disappointed forever. We could go 50 years without another like him.
Cacti
@Kropadope:
“The children’s health program wouldn’t be in existence today if we didn’t have Hillary pushing for it from the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue.”
-Ted Kennedy
October 6, 2007
Nope, never moved the ball forward.
gf120581
@Omnes Omnibus: Not to mention that Obama still only won by the skin of his teeth. Even with her campaign’s problems, she still almost won.
And Bernie is not Obama. Some of Bernie’s supporters think he is, but some of Bernie’s supporters have left reality far behind.
Another Holocene Human
Duh, there’s Henry Kissinger as SoS, canny at amassing power for himself, and turning around and fellating power if necessary, being of pure evil whose evil had horrible consequences at home and abroad.
Hard to beat the Cambodian Genocide in terms of anti-accomplishments. What does Hilary got? Fucking up in Honduras?
EconWatcher
@Another Holocene Human:
Kerry may bag the Iran deal, which would be an historic game changer in the Middle East.
You say Hillary was a good SOS. There’s a blank you need to fill in: __________________ (accomplishments)
Omnes Omnibus
@gf120581: On that, I disagree. She closed up the delegate count during garbage time, but there was a point when Obama pretty clearly had it wrapped up.
Another Holocene Human
@gf120581: Some of Bernie’s supporters have only ever had a passing acquaintance with reality, to be fair.
“I reject your reality, and substitute my own.”
Emma
So my take after reading the whole thread is that Hillary haters will be Hillary haters to the end and nothing — even the future of the country — matters more than their hatred. Let’s just stop trying to convince them and move on.
Another Holocene Human
@EconWatcher: Repairing relationships with some of our biggest allies, for one thing!
Just her being appointed evinced a giant sigh of relief.
Are you forgetting what a hole GWB left us in or is this just convenient rhetoric because you hate the Hilzbeast just that much?
I don’t like how hawkish she is but where’s the serious alternative?
She also massively improved morale at State, which says a lot. I run into some old political activists from the Clinton years. They are fanatically loyal to Hilary Clinton. Apparently she does have the touch with people, if not with the press. It might not make sense to underestimate her.
askew
@Another Holocene Human:
Not sure that matters. Hillary supporters keep saying that Hillary has learned from 2008 and the only reason she lost was because her staff sucked. Now, she’s hired Obama’s people. But, the two people who crafted Obama’s strategy (along with Obama who is a master politician unlike Hillary) were Axelrod and Plouffe. Neither one of them have anything to do with Hillary’s campaign.
sharl
@Emma:
Hahaha, +1
Cacti
@gf120581:
Another item that gets overlooked from the 2008 primary.
Hillary won the Hispanic vote by almost a 2-1 margin over Obama. The Obama campaign’s consistent outreach to that group is what ensured their loyalty in the general.
dogwood
@Omnes Omnibus:
If you want to look at how more subtle racism works in the Age of Obama, you only have to read the nonsense about Hillary’s ’08 campaign. You see the Black guy only won because she was incompetent. And Obama didn’t really give us healthcare reform; the Supreme Court gave it to us. And repealing DADT, refusing to enforce DOMA, and advocating for marriage equality were nothing burgers; we owe everything to white guys like Anthomy Kennedy.
pamelabrown53
@Omnes Omnibus:
“She isn’t Obama. No one is”. is how I see it. The fact he’s black further attests to his amazing political skills and charisma.
I haven’t agreed with all his decisions but I respect that he thought them through and I am also to the left of the majority of Americans. I can honestly say I’ve felt less anxiety with Obama at the helm than in the dubya years.
Another Holocene Human
@pamelabrown53: If income inequality were everything then Southern Black men wouldn’t be dying of heart attacks at 50 and big city Black youth wouldn’t be dying of AIDS and bullets in their late 20s.
askew
@EconWatcher:
If Kerry gets the Iran deal in place, he goes down as one of the best SoS in the past 50 years easily. China climate deal, Cuba, Iran, getting Syrians to eliminate or stop using chemical weapons.
Hillary was an average SoS. Like her time in the Senate. She didn’t piss people off but she doesn’t have any real accomplishments that she can run on from that time. There’s a reason she ran in 2008 by taking credit for other people’s work and got called out for it from Kennedy, Rockefeller, Dodd, etc.
Cacti
@dogwood:
Yesterday, I read some emoprog saying that Howard Dean is the reason that Obama became President.
askew
@dogwood:
Yep, exactly. Tom Harkin actually introduced Hillary at his last steak fry by saying she was the reason ACA exists today. Hillary didn’t do a damn thing to get ACA passed, yet Harkin easily credits her while ignoring Obama’s hard work. Lots of that BS in the Dem Party establishment unfortunately.
guachi
I’m rather saddened by the multiple people in the thread dismissing white support in the Democratic party. White voters are the largest single block of voters in the Democratic party. There are multiple states that have almost no non-white people and have sent and continue to send Democrats to national and state offices.
It reeks of racism, frankly.
Another Holocene Human
@pamelabrown53:
And for me, less than during the Clinton years as well. Although the GOP Congressional brinkmanship did freak me out. And there’s the Roberts SCOTUS. Big O gave the turtle a hell of a black eye, though. Back to Bill, I felt like some of the stuff he did through executive agencies during Term II was pretty shady. I bring up Bill because GWB was so incredibly awful that you could have had Ficus in the Oval Office (to steal a gag from Michael Moore) and I would have experienced less anxiety. “Well, at least Ficus isn’t dreaming up new countries to invade.”
dogwood
@askew:
And Axelrod and Plouffe don’t have anything to do with the campaigns of O’Malley, Sanders, Webb, or Chaffe either. So what is your point?
Another Holocene Human
@guachi: I’m concerned about your concern.
Kropadope
@Cacti: I must say that that’s the closest I got to a response from a Hillary supporter about her accomplishments and…..it only took 8 years. Even stands up to research. Still, that’s one thng and nothing compared to the damage she has inflicted while in the Senate. Last time she ran, she was impressively dishonest. Way more harm than good coming from HRC’s corner.
wasabi gasp
@SatanicPanic:
Then the hill to climb is Hillary alone.
Omnes Omnibus
@dogwood:
Same as it is every day for askew. The Hildebeast sucks.
Berto
“Purity voters” (LOL) is an awesome name for those who were against the Iraq War.
Also, didn’t they learn their lesson when they wouldn’t vote for Joe Fucking Lieberman for Vice President?
Kropadope
@Emma:
No, you don’t understand. It’s not about hatred, it’s about protecting the future of the country from the horrendously overrated Hillary Clinton.
askew
@Another Holocene Human:
I forgot about Honduras. That alone puts her below average. Honduras’ murder rate has skyrocketed since that coup. Plus, she callously said we send the child refugees who fled to the U.S. from Honduras back there. Considering her State Dept is largely responsible for the current Honduras government, her statements were horrifying.
Another Holocene Human
@dogwood:
Barack Obama was firmly in our camp for gay rights from the beginning of his campaign. He met with community leaders and discussed effecting change that would not just be reversed by the next shift in the political winds. He learned from Bill Clinton’s mistakes.
As soon as BO tried to do anything the usual crybabies in social media started flopping around on the ground and “calling out” the President for not just issuing an executive order, exactly the kind of thing he said he would NOT do!!
But having accomplished all that apparently it’s all inevitable and no big deal. Of course that’s how it goes when you actually succeed at something in politics. It’s a lot easier to see and feast over a failure.
But there is a subtle racism too, all the folks that just never trusted the guy (despite his progressive bonafides on the issue), who cried and screamed while he was manipulating events for their benefit, and snubbing his efforts when the race was won.
I think that rainbow WH was damn good PR. A lot of younger people saw that who never knew about the DADT tantrums.
askew
@dogwood:
My point is that hiring some lower level Obama campaign staff isn’t going to magically make Hillary run a competent campaign. That’s what her supporters are saying. It’s a moronic argument, but not surprising because there is so little positive you can say about her.
pamelabrown53
@Another Holocene Human:
True dat: dubya an extremely low bar. But his lowliness brought this country to our knees. A deep hole which Obama’s leadership has brought us to the rim!
I’m unaware of the shady stuff Bill did through executive agencies during his second term. Would like to hear. Still, Hillary is her own person and should be judged on her own merits. Not that I think you’re saying otherwise.
Keith G
@Kropadope:
catclub
@Another Holocene Human:
Just the fact that she has been in the business for 25 years, at the very top, and has not fizzled out, or fallen away, is a big deal to me. Ted Kennedy’s greatest achievements were saying no to Nixon on healthcare, making sure that Carter did not get re-elected, and NCLB, but he was also in the game for 40+ years. The Clintons have been mercilessly attacked for almost 25 years and are more popular now (Bill never got a majority of the electorate) than they have ever been.
Keith G
@Kropadope:
From the site addictinginfo.org
And I do apologize for the long block quotes, most unfortunate.
Kropadope
@Keith G: Offices held are not accomplishments. Holding offices with few positive accomplishments is a sign of being an ill-suited office holder. That she spoke up for SCHIP as FLOTUS has nothing on the Iraq war vote or her persistent advocacy for greater foreign intervention in the Obama administration (I suppose on this last one, we should be glad she didn’t get too far).
Patricia Kayden
@Keith G: Seems like she has more than enough accomplishments (or attempted accomplishments). Hope the same question will be asked of all the candidates — including the Clowns on the other side.
J R in WV
@catclub:
“better for their business…” – they being the media. Not just business. Anyone who can read should know that Democratic leadership is better for business. The numbers prove this beyond any doubt. Both wages and business income, as well as stock prices all rise more during any Democratic administration than during any Republican leadership.
So you don’t believe that? Look it up stupid! Google or Yahoo finance will do it the hard way, with your knowledge of when which party was in power. Or look at political documents, the Dems show that data all the time everywhere, because it’s good or them! Republicans not so much.
But the media is a special business that flourishes in times of disaster. How many people are looking at the news today, compared to any given day last week? This is because scary shit has hit the ceiling!!\\
OT – that guy in WV with the deer, they aren’t “captive” – they’re free to wander around his place. He found then with severe injuries and took them in temporarily to treat those injuries, and they follow him around like Mom. “When the rut comes, they’ll be outta here…” he said, which is the truth.
Very typical WV move, to help the helpless. Not crazy “FloridaMan” or Maineiac either one. I hope he gets help with his defense. It is illegal to house a wild animal without a permit from DNR, which does not grant those permits – deer hunting licenses are their budget, and they will never endanger a single sale, ever.
dogwood
@askew:
So anyone other than Axelrod and Plouffe is just a low level worker bee with no significant responsibility?
Why don’t you enlighten us about O’Malley’s campaign organization. Who’s in charge? How many field offices have they opened in Iowa? What kind of track record do they have in actually electing someone to high office? My guess is he doesn’t have anyone of the caliber of those “low level” Obama people.
Keith G
By the way, even though I’ll probably catch holy shit for this, is it possible that to my observation is correct that Hillary has a longer list of accomplishments then did Senator Barack Obama in 2007?
different-church-lady
@dedc79:
a) You could?
b) It matters because he is running for the presidential nomination of that party.
c) Using the party structure and resources to attain the presidency rather makes a person beholden to that party, by definition, no?
different-church-lady
@JPL: Suppose you’re thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, “plate,” or “shrimp,” or “plate of shrimp.” Out of the blue. No explanation. No point in looking for one, either.
different-church-lady
@EconWatcher: That’s good. Now do Bernie.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Keith G: if the criteria are as vague as “helped to”, “played a leading role in”, and “was instrumental in the development of” and even her biggest failure is counted as a success, I’d be willing to bet that someone with the time and inclination (i.e., not me) could put together a list as long or longer for Obama’s career up to 2008.
different-church-lady
@askew:
Then it’s established: neither one is qualified to be president! Everyone enjoy your Walker administration!
Keith G
@Kropadope: I think holding positions of responsibility are accomplishments. They certainly seem to be in other aspects of our public and economic.
In the case of Hilary, yes she was not elected to the position of First Lady. The question is did she do important things while she held at office. Seems to me she did. So not only did she hold a ceremonial position which gave her a very important to set of working experiences in how our executive branch operates but she did important things with that position.
Please go ahead and give me the list of the experiences and accomplishments that other candidates in this cycle have had which make them better situated to be the leader of this country than is Hillary Rodham Clinton.
I’m not married to Hillary (god forbid… I’m a homo) and there are no blood oaths, so if someone were to point to me a better candidate I would more than happily look at those accomplishments and abilities and consider them in my decision making.
different-church-lady
@BruceFromOhio: We’ve been nominating rotating tag lines at such a rapid clip lately that we’re going to have to do something like rotate them.
dogwood
@Keith G:
She did which is why this all such nonsense. Voters decide whether or not a candidate is qualified to be Preaident. You assess their intellect, engagement in public policy, experience in government, world view, temperament and character. When people start listing “accomplishments” as a reason to vote for or dismiss a candidate, they are simply grasping at straws. Nothing is accomplished in government single handedly.
askew
@Patricia Kayden:
That’s not going to a comparison that Hillary or her fans should want. She has been in politics a long time with very little to show for it. All of the Governors running on both sides have way more accomplishments and examples of their successful leadership they can run on. Hillary having to talk about what she did in college or as First Lady because those are her only real accomplishments is pretty bad.
different-church-lady
@pat:
My gut tells me one of the reasons he’s running for the Dem nomination is to avoid a Nader-esque scorching of the earth.
Keith G
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Go for it.
different-church-lady
@Cacti: I doubt I’m going to feel more guilty about laughing at something all year.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Keith G: I just said, I don’t really want to. But if you don’t want people to point out how silly your arguments are, don’t follow them up with your smarmy contrari-trolling.
Kathleen
@aimai: Excellent point. One of the things I admire about Hilary is the fact she is not in denial and had the guts to call out the “vast right wing conspiracy” (a clip of which Matt Lauer snarked and smirked over with Chuck Todd this morning, after they expressed hurt indignation that she would try to paint the GOP Clown Car with the Donald Trump brush).
different-church-lady
@Emma: Amen, as long as we don’t carelessly dump the folks who are genuinely stoked about Bernie into that pit.
askew
@dogwood:
O’Malley’s never run a campaign as dysfunctional as Hillary’s 2008 campaign. There are real concerns about Hillary’s ability to manage a campaign after she shit the bed in 2008. Personally, I think it doesn’t matter how many people you surround Hillary with, she’s the problem. But, her supporters have tried to blame everyone else for Hillary’s messes.
Not sure why you keep dragging O’Malley into this. His doing horribly in polls isn’t going to change Hillary’s growing negatives.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kathleen: I was just watching a particularly odious panel of talking heads (Chuck Todd and Ed Rendell? There oughta be a law!), and they were talking about “will Latino voters remember Donald Trump?”, I just want someone to ask, “Will the Village remember John Boehner?” the guy who turned immigration reform over to Steve King?
dogwood
@askew:
Why would I compare the accomplishments of a governor with a compliant legislature to a First Lady, Senator, or Cabinet Secretary? It’s apples and oranges in terms of the processes by which progress is made. Are you really serious?
different-church-lady
@wasabi gasp:
Because
it’sshe’s there?Emma
@Kropadope: Then shouldn’t we be trying to convert the “undecideds?” Oh wait. There really aren’t any of them around.
Kropadope
@Keith G: I’m gonna go over these, but the first one doesn’t pass the smell test:
The plan that was passed into law is a version of a Heritage Foundation proposal that arose in opposition to HRC’s proposal, but no one really intended to pass into law either. Because HRC pushed a plan that was developed at the White House, with Congress losing its opportunity to churn out the sausage; as Constitutionally proscribed, the healthcare plan failed and no one tried again until MA 12 years later.
Fast forward to 2008, a version of the Heritage Foundation proposal had been passed and successfully implemented on a bipartisan basis. Because healthcare reform was such a major ambition of the Democrats, every serious candidate had to have a plan. All those plans were based around the MA plan, Obama’s was not as far reaching. HRC again chose the command and control approach, admonishing Obama to get with the program rather than debating the material differences between their plans.
At no stage of her public life has she appeared to learn the lessons of the past, look at her record of agitating for war and arming rebels in the Obama administration. Despite it all, I’m still half willing to give her a chance, just because of the horrorshow of her opponents. But her record is truly not all that strong and regardless of agreements on policy, I want the government administered competently.
different-church-lady
@askew:
So what you’re saying here is that O’Malley is going to be the favorite at some point but not blow it?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Because you spent several months flogging him as the Great and Only Progressive Hope. I was wondering if you’d bailed on him yet.
dogwood
@askew:
Oh stop it. A successful governor running so low in the polls is the definition of a dysfunctional campaign.
different-church-lady
@dogwood:
It’s far worse than serious — it’s earnest.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Origuy:
None of which gives me any confidence that he’ll be able to coat-tail a Congress willing to pass legislation he’ll want to pass.
askew
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
As I said, no I still support him. He’s the most progressive, the most accomplished and has the best policy platforms so far. He’s the most serious candidate of the Dems. I’ve always said he has a huge uphill climb to win, but I am backing the best candidate before holding my nose in the general.
Suzanne
@SatanicPanic: I’m with you 110% here. To advance our agenda long-term, we need a long succession of wins, in a country where we’re still arguing about the fucking Confederate flag. FFS.
Unfortunately, that means Bernie is not a realistic option. He will not win a general election. HRC can win (I didn’t say “will win”) a general. Therefore she’s my pick at this point. A 60% chance at 60% of what I want is more valuable to me than a 20% chance of 90% of what I want.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Kropadope:
Would you rather have JEB!? How ’bout Scott Walker? Rubio? Trump?
Look, I like Bernie (so far), we match up on almost all issues, and I really want to vote for him in the primary if he’s still in the race by the time it’s Texas’ turn. Having said all that, I am not confident that he will wind up being the nominee, and I am definitely not confident that he would beat the Republican nominee. You overestimate his support among the population at large, and you severely overestimate the influence progressives have on Democratic voters (who, it must be said, are just as lazy, uninformed, and tribal as our Republican-voting brethren). If he pulls Hillary to the left, yay. Despite her flaws (which are real and legion), I would much rather win with Hillary than lose with Bernie. If that’s too much of a compromise for you, tough shit.
But again, all of this is academic if Congress remains in Republican hands. It simply won’t matter who gets the Big Chair if the Turtle is still running the Senate. WE MUST FLIP THE SENATE. That’s actually more important than the Presidential race. No Supreme Court nominees get appointed without Senate approval.
I would much rather Bernie keep his seat in the Senate to provide a bulwark on that end and elect Hillary as President.
Just to drive the point home:
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
CONGRESS RUNS THE SHOW.
It will not matter who’s President if we do not reclaim the Senate (House would be nice, but the Senate is necessary). If we can’t do it in 2016 we had better goddamned well do it in 2018, or everything that we’ve won over the last 7 years will be destroyed.
the Conster
Beau Biden implored his father to run before he died, so I think Joe is seriously considering it. That would put an entirely new wrinkle into things – he obviously would run as Obama’s third term. There’s a big opening there to appeal to the Obama coalition, and he would be the natural inheritor of Obama’s organizational structure. I wish he were younger, but he’s got that endearing smile, some goofy charm, and that ability to communicate. That speech he gave a couple of years ago to the military families was on par with Obama. He’s been there through all the policy discussions too, so, he’d be my first choice.
Emma
@different-church-lady: A lot of the people stoked about Bernie have said — as most of us have said — “I will vote for him in the primary but when it comes to the general election, I’ll vote for Hillary if she’s the democratic candidate” which is IMO, a sane way of looking at politics. The people who, when it comes to Hillary, forget how the heck the Senate works (no, you don’t pass a bill on your own; you have to create coalitions and sometimes your name doesn’t end up at the top of the list but the bill got passed) are the ones that would rather return this country to Republican rule than vote for her.
I am sick and tired of the idiots. This country isn’t liberal. It has liberal attitudes, sure, but a sizable percentage of them still think in terms of labels and outmoded tropes. Nothing in the world would tempt them to vote for a “socialist.” Jesus, they still think Hillary is a “liberal Democrat!” And those are the people that will decide the election. The rest of us have already taken sides.
askew
@dogwood:
No it is the definition of a long shot running against a candidate with an ex-President as a spouse and 100% name recognition. Hillary’s campaign was incredibly dysfunctional according to everyone who worked in it. It was an ugly mess made worse due to Hillary’s complete ineptitude. If O’Malley loses it won’t be due to his incompetence. It will be due to the same the reason Biden, Dodd, and other long shots lost. They didn’t have the money, the resources, the institutional support to help their runs and didn’t connect with the general public. No shame in that.
Kropadope
@Grumpy Code Monkey: Well, 2016 Senate races are on supposedly friendly ground. The seats that are up were last contested in 2010, so there are a lot of competitive seats currently held by Republicans. The presidential-year electorate is famously more friendly to Democrats and it’s not the 2016 election I’m worried about her blowing. So the odds of A Democratic Senate are pretty good.
Kathleen
@pamelabrown53: I think it can benefit the party to have a candidate like Sanders. To me the ideal outcome is to keep his supporters engaged to ensure Clinton is addressing their concerns. My problem with Sanders is his tone deafness regarding Obama’s supporters. I felt he was attacking PBO administration’s job numbers and my reaction was 1) is he running against Barack Obama? and 2) does he realize he may be alienating PBO’s supporters?
askew
@the Conster:
Boy, do I hope Biden runs. He is a much better option over Hillary if we have to go with an establishment pick and he would at least make it a race between the two of them. He might even force Hillary to do more than a “listening” tour. She might have to release real detail policy positions and we could have a real debate.
different-church-lady
@askew: A perfectly competent campaign that wins 3% of the vote, the respect of your staff, and $4.50 will get you soy mocha latte at Starbucks. But no shame. Certainly no shame.
the Conster
@askew:
I agree – I think he would be the automatic front runner. Frankly I think he’d make a much better president than Hillary. I think he has much better instincts, and has better relationships with people that matter in and out of government. Not that I care, but it was rather refreshing to hear Lady Lindsay gush over how Joe Biden is really the finest person he’s ever met, blah blah. I know, who fucking cares about anything Graham thinks, but, still, there’s some good will he’s built up over his many many years of service. And, how great would Jill Biden be as FLOTUS?
dogwood
@Kathleen:
Yeah, Republicans are quoting Bernie’s anti-Obama stuff.
Kropadope
@Kathleen:
I don’t think he was attacking Obama’s numbers. I’m pretty sure he was pointing out, as is published alongside the top-line number, which is now 5.3%, that there are a contingent of discouraged job-seekers that the top-line number doesn’t count. The Obama administration isn’t trying to hide this, it’s in the published numbers, so I don’t see what the controversy is.
Bernie is simply pointing out that while a lot of the healing is done, a lot of people are still suffering. Is that wrong?
Keith G
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You said it was silly, I was just waiting for the proof that it was silly. I’m sure you’re a very smart human being. Therefore, I’m sure you can gather the evidence.
I don’t like being in the wrong, but it happens. Because I do not like being wrong when I am shown that I am, I am very grateful and willing to adapt to the new set of information. You can tell me that your interpretation of this is better than mine. Fine, but, it’s important that you take the next step and find some way to show me.
eemom
Way late, but…..I’m gonna maaaaaaake you love me, yes I will, yes I will…..
Kathleen
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Isn’t it amazing how those odious talking heads just kind of blend into a giant blob of Noxious Vapor Stew? (BTW, Odious Talking Heads would be a great name for an Indie Prog group).
Anyway, no, of course not. Everyone knows Both Sides of the Democrats are the real problem.
Haydnseek
@Cacti: Yeah, but George Zimmer would have had much nicer gun, so it all evens out.
Kathleen
@Kropadope: My understanding is that the “not available for work” numbers were attributed to wholesale retirements by Baby Boomers. I think he could have expressed his concerns about jobs more diplomatically or in another context without appearing to attack PBO.
Kathleen
@eemom: I’m gonna use every trick in the book, I’ll try my best to get you hooked….
Kropadope
@Kathleen: Or we could avoid accepting media framing at face value?
dogwood
I don’t know if Biden will run, but if Hillary is elected I hope she names him Secretary of State. Other than the Presidency, that’s the job he’s always wanted.
Phoebe
Christ, this electability argument.
Look, there’s no question but that the way the media cover Hillary is shameful. It makes me angry on her behalf; she and we all deserve better. It does make me want her to win resoundingly, if only to watch the heads explode.
But. She was MIA on fast-tracking the Trans-Pacific Partnership, no doubt because she approves of it. The same will apply to the other ugly international trade deals in the pipeline. She’s had a bunch of bad calls over the years on critically important issues, and legitimate questions about her policy judgement remain. I’ll certainly vote for her if she’s the nominee, which is a good thing, because realistically I expect her to be the nominee.
But I won’t be supporting her for the nomination, and it’s not just because I think Sanders’ core policies and instincts are overwhelmingly better for the country. It’s also because I do think it’s important to win the damn election, and I’m not sure he isn’t better placed to do it than she is. I know he can appeal to POC and women, because I’m in a poor, majority-minority city and that’s who my allies are. I suspect he can appeal to those elusive middle-class white dudes, too, because actualfax Republicans have started to tell me they’re impressed with the way he’s making sense and standing up for the little guy. No, it’s not a slam dunk, but I think he can win the general more easily than he can win the nomination.
And . . . well, look, I’m in Massachusetts. I’ve worked through two Martha Coakley campaigns, and watched Hillary 2008, which makes three runs by candidates who were inevitable and unbeatable until they suddenly weren’t in only a few short years. Hillary is substantially better than Coakley as a campaigner, but the ways they approach issues are similar, and their self-presentation is similar — as is their cautious hedging around controversial issues. It’s enough of a pattern to make me very nervous about the 2016 election, and bloody grateful that so far the GOP field looks unusually weak.
InternetDragons
DougJ says:
No. Establishment media hasn’t been much more than a lapdog to sensationalism for a very long time. Their antics spark my disgust, but they sure don’t influence my opinion of any candidate. Hilary has a very long way to go before I’ll be able to do anything more than force myself to hold my nose and vote for her. I’d vote for roadkill before voting for a Republican, and I don’t believe in refusing to vote. So I’d vote for her if she’s the candidate. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, and I’m certainly not shedding any tears over media coverage. Mainstream media is a blight on our country at this point, and that bothers me way more than their treatment of any individual candidate.
PJ
@dogwood: Apparently, he’s said he’ll make a decision by the end of August, so send your cards in to the VP’s office now!
Betty Cracker
@Kathleen: Did you watch the video in which Sanders supposedly “attacked” Obama’s job numbers? I finally got around to it, and IMO, the wingnut media framing was 100% bullshit.
This came up in a thread yesterday, and people were saying — quoting outlets like the Daily Fucking Caller! — that Sanders accused Obama of hiding the “real” unemployment numbers or lying about unemployment. It’s not true.
I don’t think Sanders is going to win. I like his economic views and believe his focus on wealth inequality is good for the party. But it is sort of alarming how easily Republican trolls can get Democrats to do their ratfucking for them.
Jimgod
@Kropadope: Apparently, it’s very wrong if you don’t insulate your words from being used to attack Obama, which the Republicans are going to do regardless.
Perusing this thread, it amazes that some people are still obsessed with Sanders’ party ID when Obama himself is not a registered Democrat. I think 26 states do not have partisan registration, most Democrats are not registered in the party…. not to mention the irony of someone on the left refusing to be a third-party spoiler and getting criticized for it. If he did go third party, these same people would be screaming the word splitter at him. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Oh well.
Kropadope
@Jimgod:
Truth
Betty Cracker
@askew: Biden is 72. I thought you said HRC, who is 67, was too old to run? Am I confusing you with another commenter? Anyway, I like Biden a lot, but I don’t think he’s going to run, and I’m not sure he’d be such a great candidate if he did, although he’s a fine human being. There’s a reason his previous presidential runs never really took off.
Jimgod
@PJ: The problem with Biden is his support for the bankruptcy bill in the 2000s that hurt consumers.
http://www.propublica.org/article/bidens-cozy-relations-with-bank-industry-825
For that reason alone, he should not be in the Oval Office. Let him go be Foreign Minister/SOS and stay out of domestic economic policy entirely.
Fair Economist
@KG:
Actually, since it turned out the State department servers were insecure, it was very GOOD judgement. If she’d been using a .gov all her emails would have been leaked.
Kropadope
@Fair Economist: A good end result doesn’t negate poor professional ethics.
Fair Economist
@Kropadope: No ethics issues. She’s turned over emails when requested and appropriate. She absolutely made the right call and it would have been a catastrophe if she’d followed this arbitrary “professional ethics” rule (sourced from – nowhere!)
I know lots of people who mix up personal and professional email.
Keith G
@Jimgod:
I think there can be a bit of unintended danger in having “one strike” purity rules.
Daulnay
What the media does is not nearly as important as what Hillary does:
Hillary’s effort in Iowa is led by Jerry Crawford, a Monsanto ally and lobbyist.
From Alternet:
She has other ties to Monsanto. No matter how good it would be to have a woman as President, a corporate stalking horse is an unacceptable candidate. The Clinton DLC Democrats supported and have been essential to passing laws favoring corporations over the rest of us, why do we even pretend they might be ok in the future?
Fair Economist
@Betty Cracker:
Your memory is flawless, Betty! From 6 weeks ago:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Nope.
PJ
@Jimgod: Nobody’s perfect! Clinton certainly has supported things I very much opposed (like the Iraq war, as did Biden, though he admitted it was a mistake long before Clinton), and it should be noted that Clinton was the only senator to refrain from voting on that bankruptcy bill. Overall, I think Biden is more to the left of Clinton, and would definitely be much less of a hawk on foreign policy.
Kropadope
@Fair Economist: Mixing work and private emails has been unacceptable everywhere I work for years. And, even though they still didn’t find any smoking guns on them, they still managed to turn up emails she hadn’t provided. It’s like she’s trying to appear to be up to no good.
Davis X. Machina
@Betty Cracker:
Eventually he [i.e Sanders] will have to. His core supporters will require it. It’s an article of faith with them that Obama sold them out. Any hint of him being a third Obama term must be squashed.
gogol's wife
Oh yes.
Fair Economist
@Kropadope: Policies where you’ve worked don’t define professional ethics. My experience is that it’s mostly shadier companies that demand that, so it’s easier for them to erase paper trails with records retention policies.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Keith G: You thought your list of rooms Hillary has stood in as “accomplishments” was a good argument? So good you would top it off with a bit of trollery? Poor Keith.
Betty Cracker
@Davis X. Machina: Maybe, but I don’t think it HAS to be that way. The narrative can be something along the lines of: “The GOP screwed the country but good. Obama pulled us out of the ditch part way against unprecedented and borderline treasonous opposition, but we still have a long way to go and many issues to address.” This would have the advantage of being true.
Jimgod
@Gin & Tonic: How is it racist to point out that gun ownership is different in a rural state as opposed to urban areas, where population patterns are extremely different? People in rural areas hunt, people living in urban and even suburban areas don’t. Not everything is based on race. And I’ll also add that Sanders isn’t the first politician of the left to argue this point; Howard Dean made the exact same argument in his 2004 Presidential run.
Jimgod
@Keith G: In the primary, one strike is all one needs, especially for someone who hasn’t even declared yet.
Cacti
@Davis X. Machina:
Yep.
To them, the Obama Presidency failed in 2009 with the lack of a public option. Anything but a full-throated repudiation from Sanders will be unacceptable to the purity police.
LanceThruster
“I wouldn’t lend my car to Hillary Clinton and I regard the Democratic Party as betraying not only the American people but its very own heritage from the New Deal and Great Society. But even with this burden, absent some revolutionary change between now and then, I shall go the polls and cast my national vote based not on anger and disgust but on a bitter assessment of which party will do the least damage to the least number of Americans and which will provide the most favorable environment for those seeking real change.”
~ Sam Smith
Jimgod
@Cacti: Funny, I support Sanders and do not hold those views. A great many others don’t as well. The obsession on this blog with the “emoprogs” is getting rather old. They do exist, but their numbers are so small as to be inconsequential. They did NOT throw either the 2010 or 2014 midterms so why those zombie lies keep getting repeated here are beyond me. There are other things to be concerned about, worrying about “emoprogs”, who are more likely to be third party voters anyway, shouldn’t be one of them.
HumboldtBlue
No. Fuck Clinton.
Irony Abounds
Since Sanders would lose to any of the Republican candidates, with the possible exception of Trump, the biggest problem I have is that Sanders’ notoriety probably has reduced O’Malley to an asterisk, and realistically he is the only other Democrat who seems interested in running that could beat the Republican nominee. I only wish Hillary had chosen not to run, which might have induced Gillibrand to run. I’ve had it with political dynasties, we don’t need another Bush or Clinton anywhere near the White House.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Kropadope: From your fingers to $DIETY’S ears. I’m not as sanguine.
Kathleen
@Betty Cracker: I did not see the video. But too many “progressives” have been just as savage with Obama as the right has been, so in most cases the left is accommodating the right.
Keith G
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Trollery. If you say so.
Standing in rooms? That is a interesting formulation for a life full of unique experiences in a myriad of governmental activities from being a staff attorney for the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate investigation, an interesting formulation for a woman that the New York Times (1965) credited with, “Speaking more forcefully on human rights than any American dignitary has on Chinese soil.”
But you have your points etched in concrete and covered with molasses, so why go on.
Are my thoughts solidified? In 2006, I assumed that I would be voting for Hillary Clinton in 2008. Then in 2007, a one-term Senator who was, “a relative newcomer on the political scene” (Daily Kos 2008) having a once-in-a-generation collection of skills convinced me he was worth a gamble.
I am open to any Democratic candidate who shows me the she or he can go to war with the GOP and not only protect Obama’s accomplishment, but be the strong hand giving our government a future focus. I believe Hillary can do this.
If you are sure this is not HRC, then go off and find your candidate, work hard, and be happy.
rikyrah
@Omnes Omnibus:
That point was the night of the Wisconsin primary.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Keith G: I don’t dislike Hillary, I dislike you. That’s why I usually ignore you, even your silly first post, but then you couldn’t resist following that nonsense up with such a snotty, useless and gratuitously antagonistic post– kinda the definition of trollery (and about 75% of what you type here). So just for fun, I decided to point it out. Amusing that such a pompous douche as yourself is so thin-skinned.
Kropadope
@Fair Economist:
No, quite the opposite. These are healthcare companies and are subject to strict record-keeping laws. You can’t appropriately account for all work-related correspondence and its security if you have people working on private e-mail accounts.
Keith G
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I didn’t think asking about support for an assertion was snotty. I will have to take some time to consider the ramifications of someone on the internet not liking me.
different-church-lady
@Keith G:
Wait, what do you suppose is unintended about it?
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker:
For the sake of that other commenter, I hope not.
different-church-lady
@Jimgod:
And look how that turned out.
different-church-lady
@Cacti:
Any candidate who actually wins the presidency is corrupt.
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: Yeah, Dean was unfairly maligned for being anti-minority too.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: Well, in the end it doesn’t seem to have affected his presidency.
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: It’s shameful how the media can just decide to sink a candidate and be generally dishonest with no repercussions.
Jimgod
@different-church-lady: He served 4 years as Chairman of the National Committee, the highest level in the party organization. So unless some commentators on this post are willing to admit a racist ran the Democratic party organization at the national level for 4 straight years, I think this whole “racist dog-whistle” garbage can be laid to rest, no?
Goblue72
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Like Hillary will? She’ll be facing a GOP House & Senate. Which means she’ll get nothing progressive passed & focus on Third Way shite like “free trade” agreements, tax cuts and deregulation. I’d rather have a Socialist who wouldn’t do any of that & spend two years railing against big business and maybe by some fluke getting enough voters pissed enough to dump the GOP Congress.
Susan D.
No. I am not feeling that. Her top 10 donors are banks, Wall Street firms and corporations. Now that we just learned that Holder didn’t prosecute bankers for a reason, I will take my next president without the ties to banks and Wall Street, thank you very much. I don’t think that is too much to ask considering I am a Democrat.
Barry
@OzarkHillbilly: “Anybody else notice how completely apesh!t they went over the Clinton charities but never mentioned a peep about the Bush family charities? Now, I happen to think questions needed to be asked, and answered, but should not the press be demanding the Bush’s release a list of their donors?”
We are now seeing the press working on their second or third decade of investigating everything about the Clintons, while also ignoring everything about the Bushes.
Barry
@trollhattan: “I’m guessing unless Bernie gets himself a campaign/media party bus and tireswing the village will tire of his prickly demeanor and temper. The first dozen times it’s “refreshing candor” but eventually they’ll decide it’s something else.”
He probably doesn’t have the budget to keep the press living in the style to which they’ve become accustomed to :)
Also, sooner or later the editors and publishers (and 90% of the reporters themselves) will realize that Saunders’ ideas are really, really economically liberal.
When that happens the sh*tstorm will hit him.
Barry
@Grumpy Code Monkey: (re – the President appointing SCOTUS Justices)
“And the Senate has to approve them.”
Yes, and we’ve got lots of data on that. The Senate can block the occasional nomination for SCOTUS, but only the occasional.
Barry
@Another Holocene Human:
“Repairing relationships with some of our biggest allies, for one thing!”
And note that after losing to Obama, she immediately accepted that job, and worked very well for him.