(Jeff Danziger’s website)
First, the earnest truth from Mr. Charles P. Pierce…
… This is an act of armed sedition against lawful authority. That is all that it is, and that is quite enough. This is not “an expression of anti-government sentiment.” Flipping off the governor as he drives by is “an expression of anti-government sentiment.” What Alex Jones does every day is “an expression of anti-government sentiment,” and god bless them all for it. That’s what the Founders had in mind. This is not an “occupation” following “a peaceful protest.” That would be all those folks who got bludgeoned and pepper-sprayed out of Zuccotti Park a couple of years back. (And when exactly did ABC News decide it wasn’t a news organization anymore?) These are men with guns who have declared themselves outside the law. These are men with guns who have taken something that belongs to all of us. These are traitors and thieves who got away with this dangerous nonsense once, and have been encouraged to get away with it again, and they draw their inspiration not solely from the wilder fringes of our politics, either. Ammon Bundy and his brothers should have been thrown in jail after they gathered themselves in rebellion the first time.
This is another step down the road that leads to the broken shell of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. There are respectable people in our respectable politics who have been shamefully silent on the subject, and there are respectable people in our respectable media who seem terrified of calling this what it is. You want an example of the deadening effect of “political correctness” in our politics? Watch what the people running for president have to say about this episode. Look at how it is being framed already—or ignored entirely—by the elite political media. There is a constituency for armed rebellion in this country that is larger than any of our respectable political and social institutions want to admit. It is fueled by reckless, ambitious people who engage in reckless, ambitious rhetoric…
There is no actual tyranny in this country against which to take up arms. There is bureaucratic inertia. There is pigheaded bureaucracy. There even is political chicanery. But there is no actual tyranny in the Endangered Species Act, or in the Bureau of Land Management, or in the Environmental Protection Agency, or in the Affordable Care Act, or in IRS dumbassery, or even in whatever it is that the president plans to say about guns in the next week or so. Anyone who argues that actual tyranny exists is a dangerous charlatan who should be mocked from the public square. Anyone who argues that there is out of political ambition, or for their own personal profit, should be shunned by decent people until they regain whatever moral compass they once had…
But still… Albert Burneko, in the Concourse, on “Those Jamokes in Oregon”:
The American political lexicon has an appropriate word for the armed men conspicuously loitering in part of Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge instead of going home. It is not terrorist or militia or occupation or revolution or movement or front or army or resistance. The word is jamoke. “Get a load of these sad jamokes!” is the thing you say about them…
Imagine the grade of sad, stunted halfwit who decks himself out in paramilitary regalia and lethal weaponry to stage a sit-in at what is for all intents and purposes a remote wildlife park’s visitor’s center. Okay, men, when I kick in the door, you three move on the 74-year-old v0lunteer who shows the birdwatching slideshow to elementary-school field trip groups; if she makes a move, be ready to take her down with force. The rest of us will establish a defensive position behind the cardboard beaver. If bigger goobers than these exist on our planet, you identify them by the bruises from where they poked themselves in the eye while trying to pick their noses…
Here is the thing. These men are not frightening. They are jamokes. They are exactly jamokes. Their guns, on the other hand, are very frightening—for precisely and entirely the same reason and to absolutely the same degree that those same guns would be frightening in the hands of toddlers. Not because the people holding those guns are serious, but because the people holding those guns are not serious.
This, my good buddies, is the entire American pro-gun argument made (embarrassing, oh my God so fucking embarrassing) flesh. A big scary gun lends a degree of real power even to the variety of sad, corny-ass loser who invades and occupies what is essentially a fancy birdhouse in the name of ending tyranny. That is the whole reason to have a big scary gun. Not as a safeguard against home invaders or the totalitarian state, but as a safeguard against a clear-eyed reckoning with plain reality. A gun is—or at least these jamokes hope it is—a Get Out Of Getting Laughed At Free card. When you call these horse’s asses “terrorists,” you are not only dignifying their ridiculous, impotent actions, you are doing them the biggest favor for which they can hope…
Matt Taibbi, on “The Dumb and the Restless”:
…The Bundy militiamen are like a Black September version of an Iron John forest retreat: a bunch of weepy middle-aged guys who dressed up in crisply pressed outdoorswear and took over a bird sanctuary so they could play outlaw for a few days while they “worked on themselves.”.
They gathered around a bonfire (there really was a bonfire) and presumably engaged in Robert Bly-style mythopoetic healing, getting back to their manly roots by stroking their rifles, wearing camo undies, and complaining about all the wrongs done to them by women/the federal government/wild birds/whoever…
There’s no doubt that these people are dangerous, but their ridiculousness is a huge part of who they are. Incidentally, this is true of groups like the actual al-Qaeda, too, led as they are by men in beards and Rick-Perry-style “smart glasses” who play at being religious scholars and intellectuals when in fact they are the kind of people who are afraid of cartoons and lie awake at night wondering if it’s permissible to play chess with a menstruating woman. Just because a person is dangerous does not mean he’s not also absurd.
The Bundy militiamen are an extreme example of a type that’s become common in America. Like the Tea Partiers, they seem to not only believe that they’re the only people in history who’ve ever paid taxes, but that they’re the only people who were ever sad about it. What they call tyranny on the part of the federal government just means putting up with the same irritating bills and regulations and other crap that we all put up with, only the rest of us don’t whine about it in the front seats of our cars while posing in front of tripods.
Again, these people may be dangerous, but their boundless self-pity, their outrageous sense of entitlement and their slapstick incompetence as rebels and terrorists are absolutely ridiculous. Sure, it may not help, but how can we not laugh?
Turns out a dozen pocket constitution wavers in a bird sanctuary are NOT endlessly fascinating.
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) January 7, 2016
But there are casualties, of a sort. According to the Oregonian, yesterday:
BURNS — Violence broke out at the Bundy compound Wednesday night between its militant occupants and members of an outside group whose leader says he wants to get women and children out of the compound.
Lewis Arthur, who leads a group called Veterans on Patrol and calls himself an anti-violence patriot, arrived Wednesday afternoon with a small crew.
By Wednesday night, one of Arthur’s three-person crew was in the hospital, his eye blackened from a punch to the face…
Arthur and his group erected a military-style camo tent across the street from the compound, symbolizing sympathy with the militants’ complaints against the federal government and dissent to the group’s standoff.
Payne made it clear he had no plans to leave. At that point, Arthur said, his goal became removing women and children from the compound. It’s not clear who is actually staying in the occupied refuge headquarters — media estimates put the number at about 20 protesters, but all who have appeared publicly have been adults.
Arther and his group entered the compound Wednesday night, hoping to convince a female acquaintance to abandon the standoff.
That’s when the trouble started…
By Thursday morning, the counter-protesters were back at their post across the street. Animosity from last night’s fight remained intense. Conservative radio host Pete Santilli, arguing the outside group “escalated” things, traded harsh words with Arthur…
Whoa, their very own shock jock “embed”, come all the way from Cincinnati! As the old proverb goes: Manure draws flies.
(Threadkiller – Reposted)
This has great material for another Eastwood “Any Which Way…” movie.
I look forward to Philo Beddoe, Clyde and the “Black Widows” interacting with the protesters.
Everyone wants to believe that the things that annoy them are the sort of things they write operas about. If the gods are hurling lightning bolts at you personally, you must be a pretty important person. Hence the Bundys and the Trump followers.
You know that snowy owl picture taken by a red light camera that’s going around? I saw one nitwit on twitter referring to the device that got the picture as a “surveillance robot”.
And why aren’t comments confined to the center column? Is the TSA working with the ATF to undermine the readability of the site, just to get me?
Another Holocene Human
Lol, Berniebros cryin’ on Jezebel about the PP Hilary endorsement. “Old white women doing their thing”, picked her “because she has a vagina” followed with lots of assertions without proof that Bernie is actually better on issues of access to reproductive healthcare and fantasies about Bernie taking money from banks and giving it to PP. Well, as long as we’re fantasizing, I believe I was promised a pony. With rainbow sparkles.
What color is the sky in your world, Berniebots?
Another Holocene Human
@Mike J: Looks like a CSS broken kind of problem. There must be a css file being loaded or the browser would default with its own margins. So there is a css file but whatever herds the text inwards isn’t working or is missing.
I have been making the point several places online, just because they are loonies, just because we point and laugh at their stupidity they are still dangerous. It would be rediculous to give a 3 year olg a gun, it would be so stupid as to be laughable but that does not mean someone couldn’t very easily end up dead. These are dangerous idiots and should be treated as such.
@Another Holocene Human: I thought it was me!
When I first saw the story about the guys leaving the reservation — so to speak — to get drunk, I thought it was a parody. But no, they’re having their own Whiskey Rebellion.
@Another Holocene Human
Shall be occupying this thread until the demands for margins – any margins – are met.
Send Omaha steaks and merlot.
things got awkward when Hewitt pressed Bush to say whether he would support Trump if he is the Republican nominee.
“If Donald Trump is the nominee, will Jeb Bush support him and campaign for him?” Hewitt asked.
Bush responded, “Donald Trump will not be the nominee, because of the reasons we’re discussing right now.”
Hewitt asked him again, and Bush repeated the same point.
“Okay, I’ll try three times. Just go with me, because he’s ahead in New Hampshire, he’s ahead everywhere. Would Jeb Bush do the loyal Republican thing and support the nominee?” Hewitt asked.
“I have been a loyal Republican my entire adult life. I have supported and voted for every Republican candidate since Richard Nixon. That should give you some indication of my loyalty to the conservative cause,” Bush responded.
“So is that a yes, governor?” Hewitt questioned.
“That’s not a yes, it’s not a no. I’m just telling you, I don’t think it matters. I have been a loyal Republican, and if past is prologue, then I’m confident I’ll be supporting the Republican nominee,” Bush said still avoiding a definite answer.
Brian “Booda” Cavalier, an Arizona tattoo artist who served as a bodyguard for the Bundys during the previous standoff, has left the nature preserve after the Daily Mail reported he had been lying about serving as a U.S. Marine in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Some of the militants also suspect Cavalier might be working as a federal informant.
Just as I was getting around finish tapping out a response inspired by a thoughtful comment by Another Holocene Human on the previous page, AL posted this new thread. Since the topics are related and I want to be sure AHH sees my build off the original, I’ve carried this over:
We are staggering through an economic realignment that is comparable to nothing else that this society has been through.
At prior times of vast change, no matter how distressing the change was thought to be, we always had a a safety valve, a way out. For 300 and some years that way out was territorial expansion and resource discovery and exploitation. At the end of the last century, what pulled our fat out of the fire was our initial near monopoly of certain technologies during the tech boom. Ironically, that boom has helped to speed up the death of the cushion of intellectual/techno advantages over many other societies which also was a safety valve against economic distress.
As an entire society, we have to get better at acknowledging this vast economic change so then we can get on to dealing with this in a way that can diffuse some of the social-psychological currents that lead to the increase of socially harmful movements such as fascism.
When a politician implies that educating our young’uns for the high skill/high pay jobs of the future is our way out, that is a dodge since the very nature of this new high tech economy is that fewer worker are needed than ever before. Some of the newly better-educated will scoop up the new jobs. Most will not. They will be better educated counter staff until they are replaces by a bot.
I am not optimistic, since no current politician (including Obama) has the guts to say truthful things about this galaxy of complications. Bernie comes closest which is why there is a hint of gut-level support of him in areas one might not have thought likely. But I do not see Bernie’s best use as the nominee, but in a Warren-like position.
Our society is not ready to elect the leadership we need for this type of challenge and probably will not be until further trouble developed.
@Schlemazel: Very true. I am stunned we allow these people to own guns. I am also kind of coming totally around. I don’t want any harm to come to anybody. But if we need to take back this building by force, then so be it.
Donald Trump was finally asked late Wednesday about the standoff, where he joined most other Republican candidates in calling for the militants to stand down.
“You have to maintain law and order, no matter what,” the Republican frontrunner said.
“I have no doubts a President Trump would seek a rational resolution to the situation, while carefully finding and dealing with the root cause,” Dan Tamburello, a Veterans for Trump co-chair and also a New Hampshire state representative. “Donald Trump is the world’s greatest negotiator; he would be fully capable of bringing things to a just conclusion considering all parties and the law.”
7 years ago we were losing 800,000 jobs per month. The grand ole party was doing everything they could to sabotage the economy and create a scorched earth.
Today’s job numbers may see the unemployment number fall below 5%
What’s with tRumps ryes? Are they covered with those little cups while the spray tan is applied? Or does he use a tanning bed? Or is is white face make up like clowns use? Just askin’.
The problem with that is it could easily lead to another Murrah Building disaster. I want these guys all taken alive. Sadly, my guess is that the laws they have broken would only result in short prison terms but it would be something. I think we need to starve them out & jail them.
@Schlemazel: Look I am with you. I want no harm to come to anybody. But we can’t allow this to happen.
So, why did the feds not take any action when daddy bundy pulled his version of terrorism last time around? FBI and AG couldn’t find any reasons at all since 2014 to put those cowards behind bars?
@Keith G: Great points! It’s a fine line for the Democratic nominee to walk; he or she has to acknowledge PBO’s success in pulling the country out of the deep hole GWB left in his wake while not engaging in so much happy talk that the people who are really suffering from unemployment, underemployment and diminished prospects feel forgotten.
Maybe the inaction is due to all those sympathetic DLC – “Third Way” privatizers in the administration.
@Keith G: Neither bernie nor trump could do jacksquat any more about the tech advancements that are replacing hands-on-jobs. World over unemployment/under employment is a problem and I don’t see how america alone, however greatest and bestest it may be, can buck that fate.
@Betty Cracker: “We’re a lot better off than we were, but we can do better, and that includes taking care of those who didn’t recover as fast as the others.” Boilerplate for anyone running on the economy, unless you’re a Republican, and then everything SUCKS because of the Ni-CLANG.
@Gimlet: feds were privatized ?
@Schlemazel: I would prefer charges along the lines of “Trespassing” and “Malicious Destruction of Property” etc etc, you know, the kinds of charges that you inflict upon a child with a can of spray paint? However there would be the addendum of “while flourishing a firearm”. Ideal sentences of 5-10 years probation with community service, 4 months shock time, AND….
The forfeiture of all fire arms and stripping of 2nd amendment rights for the duration of probation. Failure to fulfill all requirements of probation would make the loss of 2nd Amendment rights permanent.
You imply Hillary has a plan. Could you elaborate?
And you know it’s not the feds but federal lands that are eyed for privatizing.
@Gimlet: Nope, I didn’t imply no such thing. None of the world leaders do. I put their names out there since they are the ones promising utopia.
How does proposed/already happening fed lands privatization affect the enforcement of present laws?
If officials are sympathetic to the cause, they would subtly support it by not dealing harshly with the protesters.
@Gimlet: Is Booda the guy who identified himself as Fluffy Unicorn?
I can’t tell from what I’ve read.
Again, a great name for a character in the proposed Eastwood flick.
@Mustang Bobby: That’s a good start, and I believe Hillary and Bernie have both weaved some version of that message into their economic pitches. Good for them. It would be great if we could see some bold thinking on how the job market has changed and what can be done to address it, but that’s probably too much to ask in a U.S. presidential election / reality show.
The economy would have bounced back faster and stronger if we engaged in massive deficit spending to stimulate employment as occurred during World War II (On Dec 7, 1941 the unemployment rate was 9.9%. By 1943 it had fallen to 1.9%)
But the people who would have benefited the most from massive new spending, angered and panicked over culture change, and fearing deficits the way homo heidelbergensis feared fire, decided to form a Know-nothing Party and engaged in Brown Shirt tactics at town hall meetings, successfully intimidating congress from underwriting further spending, which in turn doomed their own people to a delayed recovery.
Now instead of accepting responsibility for their acts, and changing their ways and calling for bigger government, they instead scapegoat Latinos, muslims, the war on Christmas and gays.
In the end it’s natures new way of natural selection.
I’m seeing Eastwood, out of “Grand Torino,” standing there and giving that growl that old men are wont to do.
ETA: Is someone going to fix the spreading of the comments section? This isn’t happening in previous threads.
fearing deficits the way homo heidelbergensis feared fire
If they feared deficits, they would not have passed a huge tax cut with the end of year budget.
A massive draft also helped.
Agree. They don’t care about deficits.
I dunno about you guys, but it is sounding more and more likely that the 3 IQ crowd occupying Malheur will not be charged at all. I understand that there is really no need for a violent confrontation [there usually never is] between LEOs and the camo clown squad, but some token charge that forces these guys into court and admitting they broke the law is the minimum that should be done IMO.
I don’t think it is any stretch of the imagination to see that if they walk free [again] after waving their dicks around and threatening violence against federal officers, that they will believe they were right in what they did and that there will continue to be no consequences if/when they do it again.
And to the occupiers I say,….”GET A JOB, YOU BUMS!!!”
@Baud: They also don’t care about “Big Government” as long as that govt is doing what they want.
My husband is upset too. It just feels really unfair if you’re on the defense side of the criminal justice system. They arrest everyone for anything and everything, or that’s what it feels like up close. He’s pissed. He wants to know why they’re getting this kid glove treatment. I think someone in authority there has to explain why this group are permitted to meet with and negotiate terms with law enforcement and no one else gets that elaborate deference and “respect”.
@Baud: chart shows: they don’t mind republican deficits, but freak out and rampage congressional town halls when Dems need to spend.
Really, under Cleek’s Law, they really only care about pissing off liberals.
@Another Holocene Human:
It looks like someone messed with the css file. We should complain about this, but all the site maintenance threads have been closed to comments for some time.
@David Koch: They don’t like the people that Dem spending help. They pitch it in terms of deficits because “let them die” sounds less religiously moral.
@Kay: I agree. I’m getting impatient also. I think the real difference is that local communities in the west hate the Feds more. If cities in the east hated the cops more, maybe there would be fewer arrests.
Fuck ’em. I want these guys either shot up, blown up or strung up. They said they were willing to die, so let’s oblige them.
@Baud: true, but the unemployment rate during 1946-1949 (after demobilization) averaged a groovy 4.1%. A far improvement from 1940 unemployment rate of 14.6%.
I don’t even care if they hold them- arguably it’s not worth the cost to the local people. I do think they should arrest them for trespassing or using property that doesn’t belong to them and order them out of there, because that would happen to anyone else. We just had a group of kids climb a fence around a county water facility and run around in there all night and they were all charged.
They’re hilarious idiots until someone gets killed. Then we will all stop laughing and start to take domestic terrorism more seriously.
@Baud: They succeed.
He was amazed they’re setting up meetings with the county. He’s like “hey- can I do that? Get a meeting to avoid an arrest?” The answer is “no”. Not under any circumstances.
The problem is that BLM and Forest Service workers have been receiving threats since the Bundy ranch thing started. These are good people doing important work and I don’t think we should do anything to endanger their lives even more. I think we have to be patient because this is a safety issue for A lot of federal employees whose jobs often have them alone in the middle of nowhere. Besides, these fools are discrediting themselves without any intervention. I’m confident they will face charges.
Iowa Old Lady
@Baud: They also don’t like the Kenyan Usurper who proposed whatever policy we’re talking about at the time. FOX viewers don’t know what the proposal was, wouldn’t understand how the proposal worked if they did know, and believe that if they engage in symbolic action, they’re doing something. Repeal Obamacare for the 60th time? A big day for their side. Occupy a bird sanctuary? Fighting tyranny. After all, what are they gonna do? A black guy is on the TV claiming to be president.
@David Koch: The GI bill played a fair hand in that.
@Kay: Well, has your husband ever even tried to arm himself and occupy a park building? Ninety percent of the battle is just showing up.
Yeah, I don’t want anyone killed, just arrested. At least the top dogs.
But if they’re still there when I’m sworn in, I know where my first drone strike will be.
That’s what I thought during the Great Bundy Ranch Standoff. I even thought “This time they have to charge them with something.” I am not so sure now. They have done not even the minimum (other than shut off the power) in dealing with these assholes.
@Iowa Old Lady: It’s really amazing how easy it has been for them.
If their argument is local and state people should manage public lands, I think we’re getting a preview of what that looks like. Some special people get to use them and others do not? We go kayaking every year on federally managed riverways. You have to plan and buy permits. Next year I’ll just seize the river, and to hell with everyone else who wants to use it.
Charges have been filed against some of the wahoos. I think it is mostly when they leave and go back home. It’s frustrating and unfair but we also need to have fire prevention workers out in the field.
@MomSense: The kid-glove treatment was arguably a good strategy during the original Bundy standoff. But nearly two years later, Papa Bundy has seemingly gotten away with running the feds off his welfare ranch at gunpoint, which has undoubtedly emboldened the latest band of yahoos. At some point, the hands-off approach endangers federal workers more than it protects them. I think we’re at that point.
Another Holocene Human, please put up direct links to these comments you are “quoting”.
I’d hate to think you’re just slandering 1/5th to 1/3rd of the Democratic Party in order to help Clinton.
For my part, if any of those are actual quotes from Bernie supporters, I condemn them and their rhetoric.
I’m especially looking forward to Another Holocene Human comporting themselves in the future as they expect others to comport themselves and even more, I’m looking forward to Another Holocene Human future condemnations of the nastier Clinton supporters on this blog.
@Kay: I’m thinking of seizing Maui. It’s beautiful there.
@Another Holocene Human: From downstairs you asked, How did the US defeat fascism last time?
Of course there are differences, but I remember reading a textbook which opined that Fascism took hold in the post-WWI era only in places with a large radical left. Germany and Italy were more so than England, for example, even though they had some adherents like Oswald Mosley. England’s muddle-through spirit and caste system was too much to overcome.
My nose tells me that the radical left didn’t have enough strength in 1920s USA to provoke the radical right to such heights of acceptance among the unaffiliated in the middle.
“There is no actual tyranny in this country …”
Mr. Pierce is not correct on this point. What snyder in Michigan has done qualifies as tyranny. Inserting appointed cronies over elected governments of various cities in Michigan is tyranny. And now it has led to life-long impairment of thousands of Flint children through poisoning of their drinking water.
In the name of religious freedom would you reactivate Pihana and allow nondenominational offerings to the one true god?
Last night’s dead thread had outstanding info and needs more visibility. How about reposting it today?
I had not read that. Mostly because I can’t get past the first few paragraphs, up to the point where they start quoting the idiots like they have something intelligent to say. What charges?
“The economy would have bounced back faster and stronger if we engaged in massive deficit spending to stimulate employment as occurred during World War II (On Dec 7, 1941 the unemployment rate was 9.9%. By 1943 it had fallen to 1.9%)”
But Barack Obama didn’t suggest doing that, instead he ignored the advice of many good economists (does anyone remember the name of the woman in Barack’s administration who was the strongest advocate of a larger stimulus?)
Barack, instead, reportedly listened to Rahm Emanuel tell him that the stimulus that the economists were saying was required was the equivalent of a political “pony”.
Corporate Dems won the argument, Obama asked for a weaker stimulus than was required to fix the problem, and we’ve had one of the slower economic recoveries in a century.
Some of them seemed pretty random. One of them had called in threats and was arrested and I believe plead guilty in PA. I think Ryan Bundy was arrested a year ago when he was in court on another charge. The Bundy boys have been in and out of court for 20 years now.
No, but offerings to the one true Baud are welcome (and will be rewarded).
Oh, for the record, I want Ammon Bundy dead. As in “bullet in his crazy fucking forehead” dead. I want every Brokeback Bundy to look upon his broken corpse as they walk out sobbing, the video mass blasted as a lesson to white fucknuts who feel free to engage in this stupid shit.
Maybe the local sheriff can do that today when he meets him – can’t imagine that any local grand jury will return an indictment, and the DOJ is, well, unlikely to be real interested in prosecuting it. Plus, it would be in the grand tradition of Westerns, the courageous sheriff confronting lawlessness.
It’s not like ihis death would be any loss to the world.
Soon. (damned offering keeps wriggling off the altar)
@Botsplainer: You just want someone else to do it.
@MomSense: Sounds completely inadequate to me. In my POV, telling federal officials you will shoot them if they try to enforce a lawful court order while holding a firearm means you should at the very least get to spend the next few years of your completely pointless existence in the bighouse (not to mention losing the right to vote for a period of time, the right to own a gun forever). But then I always thought that laws were supposed to apply equally to every one. Silly me.
I’m not there and hate cold weather, so I’m not going to a counter protest.
Call it my stamp of approval if it fits better.
@OzarkHillbilly: Right. Although I would still disagree with their political views, if they had simply staged an unarmed, peaceful sit-in, it would be a whole different story.
Laws only apply absolutely to brown or black. Poor get law applied harshly to them for the most part, with some exceptions applied to Redneck-Americans if they’re supporting RWNJ principles with their lawbreaking.
Does Sheriff Ward meet with all trespassers, or just this one?
It has to be APPLIED TO EVERYONE to have any credibility. That’s where the sheriff’s legitimacy and credibility comes from. It often isn’t applied equitably, but they have to TRY.
@OzarkHillbilly: They finally shut off the power? When did that happen?
It seems inadequate to me, too but I’m not trying to prevent forest fires all by myself with gun shooting wahoos following me everywhere on their ATVs. It’s not my call and my life isn’t on the line in this. Given the way the Trump rallies are going and the approval I hear from neighbors (which freaks me out) I am really concerned that the response would be violent and widespread. I really don’t want another Murrow building to happen.
@Baud: That would be called “civil disobedience” and comes with the requirement of being arrested and charged for whatever illegal actions one makes. Seems to be a foreign concept to these bozos. In fact, I think as a part of their probation they should be required to read “Civil Disobedience”, partake in a group discussion on it’s meaning and uses, and then pass a test on it.
@MomSense: I’m afraid to even talk to most of my neighbors right now. I don’t need to know how truly stupid and hateful which ones are, but I already have a fairly good idea.
Sheriff Ward better get busy setting up meetings with everyone who’s been charged with unauthorized use, trespassing or petty theft in that county, or he’s got some ‘splainin to do to the locals. He’s going to be very busy negotiating terms with their “leaders”. I think mediating minor crimes is a great idea. Can we all get that?
I’m starting to feel like some flashpoint somewhere is inevitable, especially if the Dems retain the White House.
What do you envision the 2016 presidential debates looking like if Sanders is the nominee? Two white men competing to denounce Obummer the loudest?
@opiejeanne: I had read, in multiple locations, that it would be shut off on Monday. I made the assumption that they had followed through Could be that only made an ass out of me.
My middle son took his little brother to buy an ice cream cone over the summer and some men in a pick up truck yelled some scary things out the window at them because of the Obama t shirt he was wearing. They then circled back and drove slowly past them again. The way our gun laws have been changed recently, you have to figure people have guns on their person at all times. So here’s my question. Should I tell him to wear his Obama shirt if he wants to or do I tell him to leave it at home next time?
@MomSense: How horrible.
@Thoughtful Today: Wow. Still locked in that bubble? Guess sanders could ask and get a trillion or two just like that. Let’s see.
Yes it is. Do you really think the only people they are threatening are the ones who work out there? They are threatening every single person who disagrees with their pov on what govt should or should not do. That is the whole point of protesting with a gun. “Agree with me or I will shoot your pasty liberal ass.” Allowing this kind of behavior only encourages more of it and until there is a price attached they will continue with it.
At the very least, they should have their arsenals seized and sold off with the proceeds going to the local schools, they should get probation with community service requirements (they seem to have lost the concept of ‘community’), and they should lose their gun rights for at the very least the duration of their probation. I am going to change my mind on their right to vote, I think they should retain that because
Ballots, not bullets.
I saw elsewhere that two local ranches would be affected if power is shut down the easy way.
@Baud: That has me worried too. I have some super neighbors who are lefty liberals, like me, but some of the others have shown themselves to be fairly hateful, and they are armed. We have rarely put a political sign in our yard and never on our cars, old habit from being a public employee that has lasted all these years since it stopped being against the rules. Now we don’t display because of vandalism.
@MomSense: Damn. Just damn. It is at that point I put it on. Not because I am big and bad (I am certainly not) but because they are that gutless. I am still driving around out here with Black Lives Matter and still nobody has said a damn word to me or flipped me off or *smashed my glass* or shot my truck. Every time I start to think about changing it to some other Commie/Liberal idea, something else happens that makes me think, “Not yet.”
* I actually half expected something like this but figured it would be worth it
@MomSense: Yowie. I haven’t seen anything like that, but I know it’s out there and has been for a very long time. I don’t know the answer to whether he should wear the t-shirt but I’ll tell you that it worries me. I’ve had people approach me in an aggressive manner because they didn’t understand a t-shirt’s message, and they seemed angry. It was a Discworld Convention tee, and it said “The turtle moves”; they asked if I was making fun of people who are slow.
@OzarkHillbilly: I think that was the plan, to shut off the power on Monday, but as of Wednesday it had not yet happened.
For “happy warriors” who think the welfare queens are all metrosexual lads in onesies, check out any day at Walmart. Witness the bearded lads in camo buying Hot Pockets with their Oregon Trail cards.
I’m grateful that Obama has held the line against many of the Republican’s horrific policies.
The specific argument you’re replying to, however, is about Obama’s rejection of a larger stimulus.
Obama rejected the serious economic math of very knowledgeable economists because he feared it would sound like he was asking for a political “pony”.
Think about that.
@MomSense: The problem is that BLM and Forest Service workers have been receiving threats since the Bundy ranch thing started.
Yeah, all those who want to starve them of attention instead of starving them of food . . . .
Your plan’s not working.
If I understand this all correctly, even though a property crime has been committed it is a property crime against the government of the United States. If I commandeered one of the pieces of federal property in my area, I would expect the first responders to be the local law enforcement but if I were to “dig in” and act in a threatening manner I would also expect federal law enforcement to be the ones calling the shots (so to speak).
So while it’s not unlikely that the local sheriff might have some explaining to do, it seems to me that there are decisions being made by the executive branch headed by a certain building at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in DC that also might want to eventually be open on the reasons for this process being implemented the way it has been.
Those of you calling for blood don’t work in a federal building in Oregon, as I do. Most of these guys are harmless cosplayers, but if they are martyred, somebody in their addlebrained community will be seeking vengeance. I want them charged, of course, but quietly, separately, and after they have gone home.
The American Society of Civil Engineers calculates that $3.6 trillion dollars is needed to bring up our American infrastructure up to speed.
There’s only one Presidential candidate that even comes _close_ to offering a solution to that problem.
@Keith G: Yep.
Those of you calling for blood don’t work in a federal building in Oregon, as I do. Most of these guys are harmless cosplayers, but if they are martyred, somebody in their addlebrained community will be seeking vengeance. I want them charged, of course, but quietly, separately, and after they have gone home.
(reposted to get out of broken-comment-window moderation)
They shut off the power to a fire station 30 miles away. Why I have no idea.
The Sheriff has no blame in this fiasco, it’s not his job. Obviously the Feds have chosen to just ignore this which is not exactly a new tactic for them.
If you hit the RWNJs where they live (swagger and jingoism), ask what would John Wayne or Dirty Harry do?
What about Randolph Scott?
Going back to real personages, Wyatt Earp comes to mind, too.
@Soylent Green: Agree with everything but the “quietly” part. It is time to stop the stupidity with guns.
@MomSense: Isn’t shooting these goobers before they can draw their guns simply self defense at this point?
(I don’t know if I’m kidding anymore. The reality event horizon on right-wingers and violence in pursuit of what they’ve failed to acquire at the ballot box was passed long ago.)
As a career federal employee, I want these people to serve long, long prison terms. I am actually gobsmacked that FBI didn’t take this as an opportunity to head down to Bundy ranch in NV, while the yahoo brigade are up in Oregon, and arrest the racist asshole Cliven “Let me tell you one thing I know about the Negro” Bundy, seize his assets, put a fence and concertina wire around his property, and then pick them off one by one (as in, capture them) as they eventually leave Burns area and start driving back to whatever white trash trailer in Hickville they came from.
When I worked for the EPA in the mid 90s, out of region IV in Atlanta, I’d go inspect violating permittees on occasion. Was down in northern Florida inspecting an alligator farm of all things (their pit berm failed, sending all the nasty water into the adjacent river). The anti-govt type answered the door pointing a shotgun at me and my colleague. We called in the US Marshalls, and the guy went to prison for a long time. These people deserve WAY more prison time than that clown got.
@Botsplainer: Wyatt Earp was a sworn lawman who enforced bans on the carrying of guns. Not sure they agree with that.
You can probably hunt them down with a little effort. It’s not much different from expecting people to hunt down whichever comment you are replying to because you can’t be bothered to perform one mouse click.
@Thoughtful Today: And unless Bernie Sanders is a magical elf, he won’t get it either, because it is a lot of money and at least half the Democrats in the Senate don’t like spending a lot of money under any circumstances. Which is why it didn’t happen the last time, not because Obama forgot to ask properly, perhaps by cleverly demanding $56 trillion so that they’d settle in the middle for a piddly $28.
Progressive-sphere: We want to see cops beating on hippies!
Slow walking the incident suffocates the issue, and exposes the freedom fighters as isolated kooks.
@Thoughtful Today: Ok, assuming those numbers are true, how is bernie going to get them? Is he campaigning to get back congress and senate super majorities?
That ASCE number is like asking Lockheed Martin how much we should spend on defense.
Steeplejack (phone), I have NoScript, that means the “Reply” button is disabled.
AHH referred to commenters on a completely different blog without even a link to the blog, let alone the comments.
It’s an odd habit of some of the Clinton supporters on this blog, they refer to unnamed commenters on other blogs only to trash Sander’s supporters.
Not sure how old your kids are, but I would be telling him to call 911 and explain that some men [or better a man] in a truck are following them and saying nasty/threatening things to him and his little brother.
Based on your story, that may only be a slight exaggeration. What the hell is wrong with these jamokes anyways?
Just a few lines before I go off to work…
I live out here in Malheur County, just to the east of Harney. Our local sheriff is out there assisting their people. I’m a little embedded into the local infrastructure so to speak, so I have some first hand knowledge of how the justice and enforcement systems work. This is typically how our systems in this part of Oregon handle situations with the potential of violence. There is a great deal of emphasis placed on deescalation at any price. The ideal is that everyone gets to live, everyone gets to go home safe and there is always the possibility of redemption. It’s not surprising that the sheriff would go out to meet with those guys on neutral ground; this kind of thing is done gently in nearly all instances. We don’t profile minorities here, don’t use brutal force until nothing else will work and there is truly imminent threat to lives. The cops out here have all attended Crisis Intervention trainings where they learn how to work with people who are having a tough time mentally and deescalate things before people and property get hurt. I have seen them work with people who are in extreme states and who could be considered dangerous and I am really very impressed with how they handle themselves; they really are remarkably careful. It’s one of the few things we get right in this part of the country. If Tamir Rice had lived here he’d be going back to school this morning, I’m sure. Micheal Brown would probably be getting ready to graduate from the diversion program. Eric Garner would probably be working in a smoke shop in Idaho.
While I am horrified at the thought that a bunch of essentially armed fundamentalist Mormons have seized a federal facility (especially that one for these particular reasons), I have some respect for the idea that removing these people needs to be done with some finesse. What happens if you cut power to the place in winter? No heat and no water. You lose plumbing, and if that bursts you lose exhibits and people set fires trying to keep warm and then things get burned that shouldn’t be. These guys have complete run of the place and if things get out of hand you could potentially lose the entire facility. There are many buildings and a lot of valuable machinery out there. I have to agree with their response as frustrating as it is to see this bunch out there prattling on about how they are going to be there for “years”. I do think it is time to have some high profile trials and property seizures and these folks need to go to jail for a long fucking time. But it’s going to have to be done carefully. They have to be held accountable, but no one needs to die.
I hope this helps people understand parts of the seemingly lenient local reaction to all this…
Clinton LOST Congress in 1994 in large part because of his right-wing policies like NAFTA and MFN for China.
Hillary hasn’t learned any lessons from that. It took years of constant criticism before she _temporarily_ concluded that supporting the TPP is a bad _political_ idea. She still hasn’t learned that her and her husband’s right-wing economic policies HURT working Americans.
Worse, Hillary will push far too many right-wing policies as President and that will alienate far more American voters than are needed in 2018 and 2022 to get Dems to take over Congress.
Bernie, on the other hand, would advocate for policies (Universal health care, free State college education, a _serious_ investment in infrastructure) that will excite voter turnout in 2018 and 2022.
1. Does NoScript prevent you from citing a comment number?
2. I found the story on the Jezebel website easily. Here it is.
3. It’s an odd habit of one particular Bernista on this blog to make absurd insinuations about other commenters who don’t feel the Bern as passionately as he.
First of all, I don’t see how bernie will excite the voter turnout by dissing the two recent most popular dem presidents. It may be unpleasant to berniites (?) but both of them have a consistent, high approval rating from the dem base. So, your wishful thinking the voter turn-out due to bernie mania will sweep in a dem majority is just that.
Second, you still haven’t answered the question whether bernie is doing campaigning/gotv/fund raising for the house and senate races?
I joke that we should form a group of pissed off moms called Posse Commie TaTas to counter these fools. There may be safety in numbers. Unfortunately women who say anything about g uns end up being harassed. Calling 911 can lead to major harassment as a woman in TX IIRC found out.
I don’t know what the solution is anymore.
Thank you for the link, Amir, I wasn’t going to comment on Planned Parenthood’s endorsement of Hillary, but you’re always an inspiration.
Do any of the Clinton supporters here recognize it’s odd that a medical outlet would reject the candidate who’s talking about Universal Healthcare?
Planned Parenthood’s endorsement clearly runs counter to their primary mission of providing medical treatment for the least amongst us.
I’ve known women who have relied on Planned Parenthood and everyone of them would have been better served by some type of Universal healthcare (Medicare for Everyone, Single Payer, pick your flavor).
@Thoughtful Today: It doesn’t matter how much Bernie Sanders “advocates for” anything if politicians IN HIS PARTY don’t support it. And they won’t. We have seen this many, many times. You’d need to elect 60 Bernies in the Senate and 219 Bernies in the House. Otherwise he’ll have to, gasp, compromise, because non-Bernies have this thing where they don’t subscribe to Bernie Stuff and don’t want to go along with it and draw lines they won’t cross about how much they’re willing to support. Imagine if that had happened to a previous president, maybe sometime around 2009-2010!
@Thoughtful Today: I’ve known women who have rotten cars and every one of them would have been better served by free unicorns with rainbow butterfly wings. BUT WHERES THE ADVOCACY FOR THAT
@Thoughtful Today: Dood, PP endorsement happened. Deal with it. With grace.
Anon A. Mous
Shocked to learn that the violent anti-American rabble supporting Cliven Bundy was never arrested and charged. Like in the comment here: @Bobby D just pointing a gun at a federal employee is way illegal felony. Disappointed too! Once they went home, armored up swat teams should have visited those guys a 3 am and taken them into custody.
Same thing should happen to this bunch, either on site where their crimes are being committed or on the road after they leave heading home. None of this bullshite is good for America and the working class which supports the whole shebang.
Does the Bernista recognise that Planned Parenthood might be the best judge of which candidate it should endorse?
Yeah, sorry Keith. If he doesn’t have jurisdiction why is he mediating their dispute? No one else gets to pick which law enforcement entity they deal with. Some of them go to motels to spend the night and then return to what they’re calling “the compound”. They’re not even camping at this point.
Meanwhile Republicans in the House are drafting laws to turn federal lands over to their political donors. It looks like more bullshit astroturf to me.
Congress was lost due to the repeal of the fairness doctrine and the wingnut Wurlitzer consistently spinning tails of D fecklessness and corruption.
Or we could just send in a squad from any mid-sized to large American city to clear them out like they do any other kind of protester. It seems to be acceptable in the eyes of the media and the public, so maybe some NYPD treatment will be good for these guys.
Far more people support Bernie’s _POLICIES_ than feel Bern. Often by large majorities that cross Party lines.
But much of the political leadership of the Democratic Party regularly rejects what even it’s _members_ support.
_DONORS_ and their money are served quite well.
The Clintons have been masterful servants of money, they’re so embarrassingly good at it that they _never_ want to talk about how their right-wing economic policies helped Billionaire outsource’rs increase wealth inequality and crush the middle class.
That will never happen. Bernistas know better than those people what is good for them, doncha know? And this particular Bernista isn’t even the brightest among the magical unicorn crowd. Because he/she has no clue how much his/her comments here have turned off those of us who may have been Bernie-curious but now will never vote for him in the primary simply because they don’t want to be associated with such stupid people. All the Bernistas I’ve come across (and, honestly, there aren’t that many around here) are essentially the left version of Paulites. Ron, that is.
@Kay: The only thing that I can think of, and this is obviously pure speculation, is that both the sheriff and the federal law enforcement agencies are in agreement as to carefully proceed in a way that does not create a type of escalation resulting in the type of armed confrontation that the federal government and the Obama administration seemed to wish to avoid. I do not see the sense in laying blame on the local sheriff when it is quite possibly the case that he is operating in a way that is consistent with what the federal authorities want at this time.
@Kay: Bingo. Sadly, there’s almost no media coverage about the bullshit astroturf angle.
Clinton supporter geg6 explains that Bernie supporters are “the magical unicorn crowd” and “stupid people”.
Well, one side is looking like idiots, anyway.
To sum up: they can come and go as they please, they’ve got food, power and shelter and there’s no sign it’s going away soon, the sheriff is politely asking them to leave and even offering to escort them out of state with no word of consequences, the government whose property was seized by an armed gang is “monitoring”, and the media are literally tripping over one another to broadcast the militia’s every word to the world. As I said before, my working assumption has been that the Feds really have some sort of plan to deal with this and they’re just keeping it opaque for now, and I sure hope that assumption is correct.
At the time I was really angry that the President didn’t ask for a larger stimulus. But, fact is, there are political realities to his job. And if I’ve learned anything from seven years of observing this President, it’s that his political instincts are excellent. He’s played a long game with a recalcitrant congress, and it’s benefited all of us. While I would’ve liked more stimulus, I’m not going to complain about how well President Obama handled this.
I think the Sheriff is trying to get these morons to pack up and go home ASAP and without anyone firing a shot. The bigger question is why the federal authorities aren’t arresting some of these guys if they are leaving the sanctuary and going into Burns for more beer and pretzels or to sleep overnight. Have they even set up a command post or a perimeter? I don’t blame the Sheriff for wanting this to go away, but the Feds actions here seem to be questionable.
It’s all very well to say that Bernie espouses all the bestest and most progressive policies, and anyone who doesn’t support him is therefore a big old doody-head who doesn’t know what’s good for them or a Republican. But consider the point FlipYrWhig raises #123: Can Bernie make that wonderful policy agenda happen, in the likely political climate of 2017? Do enough elected Democrats agree with him? Does he have the resources to help the Democratic party win the Congressional majorities it needs?
@Thoughtful Today: I feel that Bernie Sanders is providing a splendid service to the Democratic Party by raising important issues that many folks including Hillary Clinton and our current president don’t feel a large investment in.
As far as the argument stated above that what Sanders wants can’t happen, most of what Barack Obama was calling for in a speech three days ago can’t happen either but that does not mean it should not be forcefully argued for. As other great politicians have noted, our reach should always exceed our grasp. And yes, at times the Bernie bashing around here has gotten a bit thick. It reminds me so much of the Hillary/Obama conflict 7 years ago when statements of supporters both famous and unknown would be used to vilify an entire campaign. I mean really, who the fuck cares?
Let’s grow up a little bit and know that campaigns have a lot of shit going on which is rather bizarre and arbitrary. One would hope at this time in our history we have gotten a bit better at separating the noise from the signal.
At this point my reasons for voting for Hillary are much greater than reasons for voting for Sanders.
Nonetheless, I value what Sanders has brought to the table and I don’t see anything wrong with the enthusiasm added to the discourse by energetic Sanders supporters as they are pretty common in our history of campaigning.
I think someone has to explain why these people are getting such extraordinary treatment, and it can’t be “well, they prefer to deal with local law enforcement” or “they said they have a lot of guns”.
There’s a lot of tense spots and a lot of contentious issues in this country. Here’s one:
I guess they could have said “it’s very tense after we murdered this 12 year old, so we’ll hold off on all law enforcement in case the Tamir Rice protestors get mad”
@Soylent Green: I have not called for blood because of this and also because I don’t believe it’s warranted. Unless they go on a killing spree and shooting the only way to stop it, I agree with you. We don’t need another Oklahoma City.
There’s all kinds of orders to protect property or people that can be entered with an affidavit from a police officer. People are ordered to do or not do things on an ex parte emergency basis all the time. If they violate one in this county they go to jail. They later get a hearing. They can sit up there locked up for 15 days, conceivably, under one of the ordinary, garden variety processes . I haven’t encountered a whole lot of sympathy and understanding or concerns about their welfare. A lot of them are very upset and certainly potentially violent.
The anger you direct toward those who don’t support Bernie, or won’t endorse him, says a lot about you.
@opiejeanne: Tim McVeigh missed my mom by three days. She lives in OKC and on the previous Friday had business in the Murrah Building. At the time of the bombing, my brother’s girlfriend was Judge Murrah’s granddaughter.
Because I work in the Portland federal building, I think about what could happen. We are better protected than OKC was, but you never know.
but sour grapes make such nice whine!
“Woman Lay Dying In Parking Lot For 18 Minutes After Being Forced Out Of Hospital.”
In America. Four days before Christmas.
^ Things like this make me angry, Amir.
Corporatism has a very high death toll.
Corporate Dems celebrate Corporate insurance as the ‘new liberalism’ while life-saving solutions (Universal Healthcare) used in civilized countries all around the world are sneered at as ‘ponies’ and ‘unicorns’ wanted by ‘whiners’.
That says a lot about _them_, Amir.
@Heliopause: You’re making an ass out of Uma Thurman. The Fed strategy is to hope they get bored and leave. There is no plan B. Meanwhile people who showed up without supplies are being allowed to fix their mistakes because no one gives a shit.
These yahoos have contributed a lot to Republican congressmen, by the way.
@amk: No. No, he isn’t.
that’s the big problem. unless bernie can bring a congressional democratic majority with him, his policies have no chance in hell. he’d be a lame duck on day one. and this would do more damage to the democratic socialism movement, more damage to his ‘revolution’, than even the most humiliating loss in the primary to hilz. if you like bernie in the slightest this should scare the hell out of you.
think about how hard it was to get the ACA passed, back when democrats had both the house and the senate. now imagine getting universal healthcare passed with today’s congress.
given that bernie’s base is disaffected progressives who are just as sick and tired of the democratic party as he is, and given that he basically has zero history of helping get democrats elected to any office at all, he’s not going to be making congress any less red than it already is compared to clinton. it’s just not going to happen.
i’m voting for him in the primary (FWIW, our primary is so late he’ll probably already have dropped out), in spite of the fact that his campaign and supporters are such a shitshow, because i want the party to take his proposals seriously.
but, like bernie himself, i’ll be voting for hilz in the general.
That’s not corporatism. That’s racism. The hospital decided that a black woman who said she was in pain was a drug addict, so they called the cops on her rather than treating her.
A single payer healthcare system will not end racism.
Arguably a factor, Mnemosyne. However…
Had health care been free, the woman would have been treated with more respect and dignity.