Via Marcotte at Salon, here’s some polling data that contradicts the notion that all enthusiasm in the Democratic primary is on Sanders’ side and that Clinton supporters are performing the electoral equivalent of dutifully eating their vegetables:
Sanders is no slouch in the voter enthusiasm rankings either, though according to the poll, Trump’s Orc Army puts both Clinton and Sanders in the shade with 37% “extremely enthusiastic” and 28% “very enthusiastic.”
Kasich is the boiled cauliflower candidate, with 51% his supporters describing themselves as “not too enthusiastic” or “not at all enthusiastic.” I wish there were an “actively repelled” category to see how Cruz would have scored — maybe next time.
Anyway, the poll results probably don’t signify much in terms of the outcome, but it’s interesting in the context of the coverage. If you find yourself just a teensy bit excited about the prospect of voting for that tired old retread Hillary, apparently you’re not alone, the yawns from the Beltway boys notwithstanding.
AEKH
Hey remember when democrats had to settle for two old White people of which the favorite had Baggage, Troubling Investigations and Enthusiasm/Likability Problems while the GOP had a wondrous roster of hip and diverse personalities?
redshirt
I was quite lukewarm towards Clinton to start but I’ve become more and more excited as we’ve gone along.
I think I’ll be gung ho once Trump is the R nominee and that potential horror looms before us.
joel hanes
I think the most under-rated factor in this election is that Sec. Clinton will be the first woman President. I’d love to see the crosstabs by gender for this enthusiasm question.
Fearless prediction : women will come out to vote for Clinton, and her margin in the general will outstrip the polls.
Betty Cracker
@joel hanes: I couldn’t agree more.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
You can’t judge actual enthusiasm by the internet posts or crowd size otherwise we would have had President Dean and President Edwards.
RaflW
I remain completely unexcited about voting for that tired old retread Hillary. But will do it. 100% for sure.
Major Major Major Major
I’m about as excited to vote for Hillary (and, with a little luck, join her data team in June) as I am to visit the eye doctor tomorrow.
Very.
I want new glasses.
Adam L Silverman
@joel hanes: Here’s the link to the poll. Poke around at Gallup and you should be able to find it.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/190343/trump-clinton-supporters-lead-enthusiasm.aspx
father pussbucket
Sorry, OT:
WTF, Obama?
Warren 2020?
WarMunchkin
You take back that insult against boiled cauliflower!
Cacti
Everybody knows that voters are most enthusiastic about The Bern.
Despite 2.5 million fewer people voting for him thus far.
different-church-lady
@father pussbucket: Yeah, I know, it’s always shocking when people don’t hate the demon du jour the way you do.
Mike R
@RaflW: That is all most of can do, meaning vote to keep the wheels on the rails and the lunatics out of the White House. Though I might be excited about voting against whoever the R’s nominate because whoever will probably scare the crap right out of me.
Parmenides
Enthusiasm is only so important as the amount needed to get someone to vote. Also it appears that of the very enthusiastic, Sanders supporters are superduper enthusiastic (in so far as caucus results matter) while Clinton supporters are just very enthusiastic. Won’t mean much in the end. I stand once again by my one month ago prediction that sometime in April a deal will be made with Sanders, who will keep campaigning as long as the money holds out, that he will walk into the convention screaming Hillary is the only one that can keep wall street from crushing us. And that he will have a cabinet position.
different-church-lady
Yeah, well, there’s no category on there for “rabidly enthusiastic” so that poll is worthless.
? Martin
‘Orc army’? This is a Fallout year – ‘Supermutant suiciders’ is far more appropriate.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Lewandowski better call Saul
StellaB
I was all Obama all the way, even before he announced his exploratory committee, but I was sad when Hillary lost in 2008 anyway. I stopped reading Hullabaloo and Kos and never returned because they were so negative about Hillz, but I didn’t hesitate to vote for BHO. I think that I might even be a little sad to see Bernie go, although good riddance to the ‘bros.
Autocorrect changed “bros” to bris which amused me.
Chip Daniels
I am extremely ecstatic about blocking any future Scalias from the Court, overjoyed at the prospect of not blundering stupidly into whatever war Bill Kristol dreams up, delirious about better appointments to the NLRB and every other federal regulatory body, delighted about retaking the Senate and diminishing the majority in the House.
I have eaten boiled cauliflower, and trust me, it feels nothing like this.
RaflW
I am cognizant of the potential historic tremors if we follow up an African American prez with a woman prez. I am excited about that.
I’ve been wondering, but not getting off my ass about finding the answer, how many countries have had more than one woman Prez/P.M./elected top cat? Thatcher for example, seems to have intimidated the British glass ceiling into stepping aside temporarily, so as to avoid shattering.
Major Major Major Major
@father pussbucket: Now, I’m far from a DWS superfan, but um, this is how political parties… work…
Now, I know that a lot of the Bernie people are unfamiliar with the idea, but them’s the breaks. Maybe they should get involved with their local party!
Cacti
Speaking of enthusiastic supporters…
Susan Sarandon has confirmed that she’s still a toxic, Naderite, fucking idiot.
Expresses her hope that Trump would beat Clinton to hasten the proletariat revolution.
The kind of whimsy you can afford to have while living in a 50 million dollar cocoon of privilege.
Is she still one of the good kind of 1-percenters, Bernfeelers?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: surprises me because the story has been for years that Obama disliked DWS personally and professionally.
I don’t know what party chairs do, but it strikes me that neither one is doing a real bang up job these days. Makes me wonder if part of the reason Reince and DeWaS are still around is that nobody else– who wouldn’t be even worse– wants the job. Also how many times a day Michael Steele reads or hears something about Preibus and says, “Are you fucking kidding me?”
Iowa Old Lady
@RaflW: That’s a good question. It’s like Kennedy was the first Catholic president, and so far the only.
different-church-lady
@StellaB:
Exactement!
Miss Bianca
@joel hanes:
yeah, I don’t get this supposed “gotta eat my peas now” reaction to voting for HRC. I am quietly thrilled at the prospect of getting to vote for the first woman President of my lifetime. “About damn time”. I’d love to see a President Clinton inspire a whole generation of girls to aspire to run for office.
Now if we can just get the misogynistic hellhounds who insist on baying at the heels of prominent women just BECAUSE they are prominent women, we might stand an even better chance of Making It So.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Cauliflower should be roasted.
RaflW
Maybe DNC chair is a crappy, thankless job. Reince, following Steele, seems to suggest that RNC chairdom attracts less than the best.
My casual viewing of occasional DWS appearances on TV make me think she is an extremely conventional, corporatist, 1990s-ish Democrat. I would like to see a DNC that funds more base building in future swing states. Abandoning Texas after Ann Richards loss (my perception, might be wrong) seems to have been an epic failure of imagination, strategy and outreach. But maybe also a financial necessity at the time (and certainly predates DWS as chair).
My point is, the DNC needs someone more visionary as chair. We are in a fight of a lifetime, and Wasserman Shultz seems like a functionary-level apparatchik.
RaflW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Steamed, then curried is nice, too.
jl
I am equally excited about electing either the first woman president or the first Jewish democratic socialist president, while realizing that either one will come with their own distinct sets of advantages and disadvantages.
I hope that the very enthusiastic Trump Orc Army is much smaller part of the general election voting population than the nuthouse that is the GOP primary voting base.
I also realize that the news actors employed by the US corporate media would prefer to chew their own fingers off on live TV than to actually, accurately and fairly discuss the many issues of actual importance to average ‘lesser’ person. So, I have no expectations, and dismiss the crap they pump out (including most of what they blather about the Democratic candidates and the Democratic primaries).
Bill E Pilgrim
Hmm, “Somewhat Enthusiastic”, “Very Enthusiastic” … kind of lukewarm, they need to add “Fightin mad and ready to punch someone!” to those choices. Then add a box for “Check this if you are the campaign manager for one of the candidates”
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’ve boiled cauliflower, then shredded it and used it as a substitute for rice.
ETA: Makes really good spanish rice.
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
So should Kasich, nyck nyck nyck…
BillinGlendaleCA
@RaflW: As I’ve said before and will continue repeating, the party chair jobs are FULL TIME positions.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’ve concluded that unless you’re doing something extra-fancy to them, most vegetables should be roasted — cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, parsnips, broccoli, carrots, etc.
Bill E Pilgrim
@BillinGlendaleCA: If you can reverse the process, then I’ll be impressed.
jl
I think of Kasich as more like the stewed prune candidate.
But, then I like cauliflower, properly prepared and am sensitive to cauliflower slander.
Stewed prune slander is a problem too, but they are tough and can fend for themselves, so it don’t bother me much.
Edit: though, if by ‘boiled cauliflower’ you mean that you put it in a gallon of water and boil it until it is a beautiful translucent gray, then I guess that fits Kasich. Question is, are there enough wrinkles, and how much gas is eventually emitted? So, see? Safer to go with stewed prunes.
Bobby Thomson
The Sanders rejoinder, which may have merit, is that people were asked how they felt about voting in November. Sanders voters are less keen about voting for Clinton than Clinton voters, and Kasich voters aren’t looking forward to voting for Trump.
Applejinx
Since more arguing about Hillary is boring:
This guy’s lecture is really interesting.
It’s “Douglas Rushkoff: Throwing Rocks at the Google Bus—How Growth Became the Enemy of Prosperity” and he has a really interesting take on what’s happened to capitalism and the velocity (or lack of same) of money.
Davebo
@different-church-lady:
So we’ll just put you down as pro predatory lending practices.
Check.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@BillinGlendaleCA: Ah, thanks, I keep seeing the cauliflower rice as a low-carb option and wasn’t sure how to do it.
KS in MA
@Chip Daniels: Well said!
jl
If Lady Cracker offers us a caricature of Kasich as a well and thoroughly boiled head of cauliflower, I think that would help settle the issue.
Roger Moore
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Cauliflower should be turned into aloo gobi.
Steve in the ATL
@Iowa Old Lady:
But they run the Supreme Court!
jl
@Roger Moore: I don’t think Star Wars references are appropriate in this thread.
A Ghost To Most
Cauliflower is also good cooked and mashed with potatoes, preferably with some roasted garlic. Such a versatile vegetable.
Please don’t compare it to that rotten cabbage head Kasich.
Sad_Dem
Speaking of women running for president, I’m old enough to remember Shirley Chisholm.
AkaDad
I’m so enthuiastic about voting for Trump I could punch a protester!
JMG
A party chairperson has three possible responsibilities
1. Party spokesman. DWS sure stinks there
2. Organizational skills. Doesn’t seem like that’s her forte either.
3. Rainmaker. She’s got to be good at shaking the money tree, because that’s all that’s left.
Kathleen
@BillinGlendaleCA: Also, too, eaten mashed cauliflower prepared with butter and it’s pretty good in lieu of mashed potatoes. Argh. Posted before reading the entire thread.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore:
Yeessssssss. *googles Indian near me*
Boo, can’t fit it in my schedule. Später.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Indeed. And I don’t think she’s done a bang-up job either. But you don’t just turn on your loyal apparatchiks like that, it discourages people from getting involved and sticking their necks out. Just sorta how it goes, y’know? Shrug.
Kathleen
@Sad_Dem: @Sad_Dem: Yup. I saw a documentary about her on oh heck I don’t remember channel. Evidently she and George Wallace became friends before he died. Very interesting woman.
J R in WV
I started out happy enough with Hillary, but have quietly moved from willing way over to going to do anything I can do to aid her success.
She did so well in front of Gowdy’s stinking committee to harass a Clinton, even while just sitting there listening to the Republicans froth falsehood after falsehood, keeping her calm, making the appropriate response and always having the calm answer. That shows a very real ability to cope with pressure.
She knew she could end her career – all the things she wanted to do for current young women and girls, to help average folks – with a single mis-step. Yet she was as calm and collected as anyone could be.
And I’m so sick of people giving the Clinton family a hard time over fictitious BS.
I think she’s going to be a great President. Hoping hard.
Kathleen
@Major Major Major Major: Good point.
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: Gobi is cabbage not cauliflower. Cauliflower is phoolgobi.
phool==flower
ETA: Please no aloo in either cabbage or cauliflower.
smith
It’s interesting how little attention has been paid (so far) to Hillary’s gender. I certainly think Trump will play it for all it’s worth, though, and the general will be oozing with misogyny. Unfortunately, Hillary is in the same no-win situation all powerful women face — there is nothing she can do that will make her appear at the same time strong enough to be president and weak enough to satisfy gender expectations. This article describes research that suggests she may lose even more due to her gender than Obama did due to his race. I have no doubt she can handle it, since she’s done it for a long, long time, but still it makes me tired just to think of what’s coming up.
Iowa Old Lady
@Steve in the ATL: To our sorrow.
Mnemosyne
@joel hanes:
It’s potentially even better than that: not only do women like Hillary, they LOATHE Trump. Crawl-over-broken-glass loathing. And we haven’t even started the general election portion of the festivities where they’re going to be going head-to-head.
Invest in popcorn futures now.
SiubhanDuinne
@Miss Bianca:
That’s how I felt when I cast my vote for her in the Super Tuesday primary, and I expect to feel it in November by orders of magnitude more.
Elizabelle
@J R in WV: Yes.
I’m excited to vote for Hillary, and smiled when I voted in the Virginia primary. Even though I like and wish Bernie well too. He’s done amazing work, putting inequality and economic opportunity front and center. The middle class is past hollowed out.
In some ways, Bernie puts the lie to why Trumpmaroons are supporting Trump. If they’re primarily concerned about economic obsolescence and having been sold out (which they were), why are they lining up for a billionaire reality show guy? They need to be smart in addition to being mad. Their bad. Tribal.
Keith G
@different-church-lady:
@Davebo:
Rep Debbie Wasserman Schultz is a member The New Democrat Coalition and has been one of the most prodigious rainmakers for House Democrats – probably was a factor in her DNC position.
She is in the pocket of the payday loan scum, which (among other considerations) in my mind makes her scum as well. She is a part of the composite image of corporatist Democrats that have given aid and comfort to the insurgent forces raising a ruckus in both parties.
Citizen Alan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Which is why Kasich is the boiled cauliflower candidate.:)
ThresherK
So, who in the mainstream press is going to go all Jill Abramson going and write a “Guess what (you’ll never believe because we’ve conditioned you)? A significant number of voters really like Hillary”
frosty
@Sad_Dem:
Well, thanks to Shirley in ’72, Barack wasn’t the first African- American and Hillary won’t be the first woman I’ll have voted for.
Elizabelle
Also, it’s great to be able to vote for a tough woman, not just a mean girl, as the Repubs serve up. (You get mean with a side of crazy over there.)
singfoom
@schrodinger’s cat: You’ll have to pry the aloo gobi from my cold dead hands. Preferably after I have consumed the potato and cauliflower dish.
dogwood
@Major Major Major Major:
Exactly. If he doesn’t endorce her then that’s a big story in the horse race narrative for a few news cycles. He shouldn’t do anything to feed the beast. Not that he’s ever been so inclined anyway.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
I couldn’t agree more.
SiubhanDuinne
@Sad_Dem:
I have probably mentioned this in a previous discussion of Shirley Chisholm, but when she was first running in 1972 she came to Tampa and my women’s consciousness-raising group at USF hosted a meet-‘n’-greet coffee for her, and guess where it was held?
That’s right, in my apartment!! Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm drank my coffee and ate my cookies and spoke with about 18-20 women for the better part of an hour. I loved her.
singfoom
@Keith G: @Davebo: @Major Major Major Major: @different-church-lady:
It’s reasonable to dislike the fact that Obama endorsed DWS while realizing that that’s how political parties work. It’s also reasonable to look at her legislative priorities in regards to payday loans and want her to not hold elected office. It’s also reasonable to think she’s a shitty DNC chair.
Steve in the ATL
@SiubhanDuinne:
Man, I never get invited to stuff like this.
Baud
@singfoom: Whoa. Four links!?
Major Major Major Major
@singfoom: I’d be willing to put a small amount of money down that that’s exactly what all five of us think.
@Baud: Your SuperPAC was lobbying Alain hard for adding a fourth link and you know it.
singfoom
@Baud: Threatened by my coalition building over here? I’m tired of you taking the BJ electorate!
dr. bloor
@SiubhanDuinne:
Ah, the seventies. Did she like your avocado appliances?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
The Obama coalition is a thing, and Hillary is its natural inheritor. This is what the Democratic Party is and does. Thanks for playing Bernie, but maybe you could have learned a thing or too before setting out on this mission.
Ultraviolet Thunder
I was excited about HRC eight years ago and I’ve just become more excited since. She’ll be great, and I’m delighted to have such a qualified candidate.
dogwood
@singfoom:
I wouldn’t be surprized in the least if Obama agrees with most of what you said. There doesn’t seem to be much evidence that endorsements mean much. They’re simply part of the election game that cable news, Twitter warriors and Facebook activists like to blow out of proportion because talking about trivia is what they do best.
JPL
@Cacti: Yup.. Ask Kansas how that worked out.
Betty Cracker
@SiubhanDuinne: Wow! My mom was a huge Chisholm fan too. When Geraldine Ferraro got nominated as Mondale’s VP, Mom was all, BFD, Shirley Chisholm ran for president!
Baud
@singfoom: 100% of Baudhisattvas! are extremely enthusiastic about the election.
singfoom
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: HRC may be the inheritor, but it was totally Bernie’s right to run for the nomination. I’m glad he ran and he’s making the party better. Your mileage may vary.
After the rightward move of the party, him as a counterweight is a good thing. Again, YMMV.
NR
The options in that poll are weird. What does it mean to be “somewhat enthusiastic” about something? I understand the “very enthusiastic” and “not too enthusiastic” options, but “somewhat enthusiastic” is a very specific temperature of porridge.
Bill Arnold
As Chico Marx said in Duck Soup, loosely paraphrased, “Who you gonna believe, the narrative or the lying numbers?”. (Or was that Richard Prior? I forget.)
MomSense
More evidence that MSM narratives are fiction.
I started this process desperately hoping for an alternative to Clinton but I’ve become an enthusiastic supporter. Watching the first debate, it was clear that she is the best prepared and most Presidential of the Dem candidates. Her embrace of the Obama legacy and her commitment to listening and learning has been impressive. I’ve gone from Hill no to Hill curious to Hillzilla.
Also too, I am not going to be a part of any movement or campaign that is not multiracial.
SiubhanDuinne
@dr. bloor:
You laugh, but in fact they were. With touches of Harvest Gold* here and there.
*aka Baby Poop Yellow
John S.
@Cacti:
Who really gives a shit what Susan Sarandon thinks?
She’ll remain in her cocoon of privilege, I’ll still happily vote for Hillary (even though I voted for Bernie in the FL primary), and you’ll still be an asshole desperately trolling every thread between now and November.
eemom
@Elizabelle:
And Pathological Liar Brûlée for dessert.
Citizen_X
@Major Major Major Major:
It is still an awesome sight to behold.
dmsilev
The writers for The Onion have been having a fair amount of fun with the concept of Ted Cruz. Today’s entry (Ted Cruz Opens Up To Town Hall Audience About Early Days As Larva Feeding On Porcupine Carcass) isn’t bad, but my favorite so far is still Brutal Anti-Cruz Attack Ad Just 30 Seconds Of Candidate’s Photo Displayed Without Any Text, Voiceover, Music.
Elizabelle
Dang. Economist Lester Thurow has died. Aged 77. I liked him. He wrote understandably for non-economists, which is an art.
Had forgotten he was from MIT. Wonder if Tom Levenson knew him. Thurow has got to have been one of their crown jewels.
NY Times:
So K-Thug found him “simplistic.” Ah well. For the layman, Thurow was a gift.
Another person from that era who’s pretty much disappeared, apparently still alive but also prescient: Graef Crystal. He warned about the implications of excessive executive compensation, and has been proven right about 300:1 by now.
Went looking for Crystal and it appears his website has been hacked, so caution there.
Elizabelle
@eemom: Yeah. It sets its own hair on fire.
Sad_Dem
@SiubhanDuinne: Amazing story! Did you save a plate?
MomSense
@Steve in the ATL:
Ha! My son and I were watching a special on the American Ballet Theater over the weekend and he was shaking his head with regret that he gave up ballet. I tried to tell him how good it would be when he got older but he wouldn’t listen.
Elizabelle
@MomSense: We are Hillzillas and HillJuicers.
SiubhanDuinne
@Betty Cracker:
It was very cool. I was a few years older than most of the other women, and I think the only one who was married and living in a “nice” apartment as opposed to kind of scruffy student quarters — although I have no doubt Rep. Chisholm would have been just as smart, elegant, gracious and warm in whatever setting she found herself. I enjoyed it a lot, but I think it was many years before the historic “Wow!” factor fully kicked in and I realized what a moment that truly was.
Shana
@Elizabelle: re: Hillary vs. Bernie voting in the Virginia primary, my husband came home that night and said “Well I voted for the jewish guy in the primary and will happily vote for the woman in the general.” He’s jewish (as am I) and is the father of two women.
MomSense
@Elizabelle:
Yes! I like Hilljuicers. My criteria for choosing is pretty simple. I look for the smartest and most inclusive candidate.
Davebo
@singfoom: @singfoom: Agreed on all counts.
Roger Moore
@smith:
I think you’re underestimating the extent to which Trump’s misogyny will hurt him. He’s already at something like a -50% favorability rating among women, and that’s likely to hurt him badly in the election. Women make up more than 50% of the electorate, so making yourself widely loathed among women is not a very smart electoral strategy.
Elizabelle
I was really happy to learn today of Roy Cooper, NC Attorney General since 2000. Democrat. Challenging Pat McCrory for governor this fall.
That’s a wonderful additional reason to get North Carolinians to the polls. The idjits in the legislature might have just helped him immeasurably with their latrine madness.
Another issue Hillary and Bernie and everyone has to drum in: Democrats and their supporters MUST VOTE EVERY TWO YEARS. It’s foolish to think just voting presidential can go it alone.
Although I kind of wish we got rid of the midterms and just did 4 year and 8 year terms for the House and Senate. Too much fundraising already; give them some time to do their jobs between recesses.
ETA: Sorry to yell. But the nonvoting in off years is a real problem.
SiubhanDuinne
@Sad_Dem:
Wish I had! I don’t think I even had the presence of mind to ask for an autograph, which is most unlike me — but I must have felt a bit flustered with my hostessing duties :-(
Brachiator
@joel hanes:
I’m not so sure. In 2008, some California tracking of political contributions showed some Republican women donating to Clinton. I have not seen this happening to the same degree in 2016.
But it will be interesting to see what develops here. Political ideology still seems to matter for a lot of people, male and female.
On the other hand, I’m not seeing anything about increased voter registration except for articles related to Trump.
Neither my mother nor my college age niece are Hillary supporters. My sister is a big Clinton booster.
By the way, I am curious how this Enthusiasm Measure looks if you look at the age of the respondents.
Germy
I’ve been hearing grumblings from RW commenters on faceb00k about a new movie coming out: “Mena” which tells the story of Barry Seal, who is somehow connected with the “Clinton crime family”.
Elizabelle
@Shana: I think that’s wonderful. Think it happens a lot, too.
Not what you’d hear from the MSM, but Dems are kind of pleased they’re not looking at a clown car and deeeep bench.
@jl: And jl nailed it re the broadcast media.
Seanly
What what what? Salon didn’t have a Camille Paglia-approved post reporting on how Vampyr Hillary had murdered the Lindbergh baby while causing the Great Depression, the sinking of the Titanic, & the Hindenburg Crash? I dropped them from my favorites a couple of weeks ago after yet another day of 5 top posts each about how Hillary is worse than the love child of Satan, Pol Pot, and Genghis Khan or else can’t beat Paglia’s boyfriend Trump in the general.
Germy
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Shirley Chisholm. That is so cool.
smith
@Roger Moore: I think you’re right — it’s the same phenomenon as his attraction for white bigots being balanced by the revulsion for people of color.
Even though it may ultimately redound to Hillary’s favor, I still dread having to watch it all go down. Just today, apparently Trump has started claiming that the Breitbart reporter was trying to grab him, and her bruises were probably preexisting, and the bitch be crazy, ammirite? It’s just so predictable and disheartening.
Heliopause
Now I’m confused. If Hillary supporters are more enthusiastic than Bernie supporters, and caucus results are largely a function of supporter enthusiasm, then how did we get last Saturday’s caucus results?
Steve in the ATL
@Germy:
With right wingers you can always count on (1) lies, and (2) projection.
Robert Sneddon
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: DWS is the DNC chair during the run-up to a historic election in November where the Democrats will hold the White House by putting a woman in the Oval Office with a landslide electoral college vote, retake the Senate and possibly even take the House if the dominos fall right and her work as rainmaker keeps the downticket funding coming. That’s an impressive result for a “dumb broad”.
As for endorsements, don’t forget Senator Obama supported Lieberman in 2006 before he lost his primary in Connecticut. It wasn’t much of an endorsement but it was out there.
Elizabelle
@Heliopause: Because they are caucuses. Which are highly self-selecting and actually pretty unrepresentative.
Maybe you would have had a different result with a primary with early voting, and maybe not. I’m glad Bernie did as well as he did.
Roger Moore
@Elizabelle:
And more often than that in some places. Some states and many localities have their state elections in odd years*, so there’s something potentially important to vote for every year. Not to mention the importance of voting in primaries. Being a good citizen requires effort.
*This is apparently a hold-over from the Progressive era. Progressives thought that holding state and local elections at different times from national elections would help to free them from partisan politics.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@Heliopause: Surprisingly, the state of the $15 minimum wage and legalized marijuana went heavily in favor of the socialist.
Gian
@singfoom:
So how did Obama treat Joe Lieberman?
Better than he deserved if you ask most of us. Same with DWS.
It’s who Obama is.
joel hanes
@? Martin:
This is a Fallout year
You too, huh ?
Are you enjoying parts of Diamond City Radio as much as I am ?
The Ella Fitzgerald songs are both fscking wonderful.
And Johnny Mercer’s “Personality” has become an unshakeable earworm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKYari2aMSo&list=RDxKYari2aMSo
Jim, Foolish Literalist
What should he have done?
dogwood
@Heliopause:
Caucus goers probably are more enthusiastic in general. But the number attending is overall pretty small. I wouldn’t assume that people voting for Hillary in primaries can’t be as enthusiastic as some of Bernie’s voters.
Miss Bianca
@SiubhanDuinne:
Remind me whenever we meet, so I can ooh and ahh all over again. : )
patroclus
I have never in my life been invited to a women’s consciousness raising forum with Shirley Chisholm. Life is so unfair.:-(
Heliopause
@Elizabelle:
Based on what criteria?
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
The state minimum wage is not $15, and Bernie has won even bigger in states without legal pot.
Gian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m just saying what he did, an that’s how he tends to treat less than perfect loyalty.
snipped from Wikipedia:
Many Democrats wanted Lieberman to be stripped of his chairmanship of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs due to his support for John McCain which went against the party’s wishes.[84] Republican Minority Leader Mitch McConnell reached out to Lieberman, asking him to caucus with the Republicans.[85] Ultimately, the Senate Democratic Caucus voted 42 to 13 to allow Lieberman to keep chairmanship (although he did lose his membership for the Environment and Public Works Committee). Subsequently, Lieberman announced that he will continue to caucus with the Democrats.[9] Lieberman credited President-elect Barack Obama for helping him keep his chairmanship. Obama had privately urged Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid not to remove Lieberman from his position. Reid stated that Lieberman’s criticism of Obama during the election angered him, but that “if you look at the problems we face as a nation, is this a time we walk out of here saying, ‘Boy did we get even’?” Senator Tom Carper of Delaware also credited the Democrats’ decision on Lieberman to Obama’s support, stating that “If Barack can move on, so can we.”[86][87]
SiubhanDuinne
@Miss Bianca:
Retrospectively, it is indeed to ooh and ahh over. At the time, it was more that we needed a place to meet and I seemed to be the only viable hostess. But indeed, we can and will talk about it when we meet :-)
dogwood
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Obama treated Joe respectfully because he treats everyone that way in general. He also knew that Joe would be one of the crucial point men running the repeal of DADT in the Senate.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Gian: What bills would “punishing” Joe Lieberman have passed? What cause would be advanced? What issue resonate more strongly with the electorate?
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
Those were crazy good days, when I was finding my feminist chops and my own values rather than my husband’s (not denying my own responsibility for the shit I espoused previously, but happy to have come out the other side more-or-less intact).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dogwood: He was also in a position to fuck with the stimulus, health care reform more than he did, I don’t know what other less headline-grabbing bills he could have stalled, weakened or killed. I wish the voters of Connecticut had “punished” him. They didn’t want to.
Gian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
what fight are you trying to pick?
Heliopause
@dogwood:
Turnout for Washington’s caucus was estimated at 230,000, which I’m going to guess was a little bit bigger than whatever sample size they used in the Gallup poll.
I can’t tell if you’re endorsing the conventional wisdom here or not.
singfoom
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: @Gian: After Lieberman’s endorsement of McCain? Had him shipped to Guantanamo?
Pressured the Senate leadership to strip him of his seniority and committee assignments?
As Gian said, he treated him better than he deserved.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@MomSense:
This is the thing that has bothered me about Bernie and his supporters from the beginning. How on earth can you call something a revolution that doesn’t set out, as an organizing principle, to emphasize the inclusion of the most marginalized in this racist as fuck country? I told anyone who would listen that without the AA community’s votes, a “revolution” was dead in its cradle, but no, I was told that somehow Bernie’s revolution was “different” than what we saw in 2008. From white people, of course.
dogwood
@singfoom:
He treated him better than he deserved, but he treated him the way the American people needed him to be treated at that time if any agenda were to advance in the Senate. I doubt that Obama really cared all that much that Joe endorced McCain. It dominated a few news cycles and had no effect on the electoral outcome. I will note however, that during the campaign Joe made some veiled comments about Obama being a Muslim. A few days later, Obama took Joe off the Senate floor and when they returned Leiberman was ashen. Frat parties on the Straight Talk Express are fine, but if you want to go with the Muslim shit it will be game on.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Gian:
Obama is smarter than you, and everyone else here. It’s OK to admit it, and learn from the master’s ability to look beyond the obvious and eschew the personal. We have the best politician in our lifetimes, right under our nose. Our mission, should you choose to accept it, is to pay attention to what he’s accomplished, given what he had to work with. Hillary has. Bernie hasn’t, and he chose… poorly.
Cacti
@John S.:
1. You, who took the time to tell how much you don’t care (wink, wink).
2. And people other than you, since it was said on a nationally syndicated television program.
So, GFY. But I mean that in the nicest way. ;-)
father pussbucket
@different-church-lady:
I don’t hate DWS; this just seems particularly perverse to me.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@MomSense: Her recent speech on Race where she acknowledged White Privilege and the need for White people to do actual work on themselves in order to fight racism, was an excellent example of her listening/learning. She recently hired a couple of Black women advisors to help her on this stuff. I can’t remember their names but per Imani Gandy, HRC’s speech showed the influence of these women very clearly. Which is exactly how a candidate should grow/learn/listen etc. to better understand members of their constituency who have more expertise on the matter than the candidate does. Hopefully it’s a real sign that she wasn’t simply pandering to the Obama coalition and actually intends to try to make a real difference on these issues once she is in office.
Tripod
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s been a long time since party positions wielded serious power. I think some of that is party reform, and a whole lot of it is societal shift.
Matt McIrvin
Someone just posted a picture of the Clintons as young newlyweds in my G+ feed, asking what the odds are that both of these people would become President. Led to a discussion of how rigged American politics is, with foreigners opining that Americans should be embarrassed and appalled.
I think the guy who posted the original picture was someone who liked to talk about how worthless voting was until Bernie came along. Oh well.
Steve in the ATL
@Matt McIrvin: That’s why I’m voting for Laura Bush
Elie
@dogwood:
Everything you say…. yes, Everything
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Ditto
Elie
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Time will tell but I am warming up real nice to Ms. Hillary the learner and becoming the open wide to the world leader. She is twice, maybe three or more times more of a complete person than her old man. Maybe he is afraid that HE will just be the footnote in history after her presidency? Obama aint a tool or a fool. There is a reason that he chose Hillary not just for SOS but now as candidate for President. These two have had many many conversations about a whole lot of shit is my guess. They grok each other and grok what is needed to be president. HE, not Bill — will be her mentor.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elie: Why does she need a mentor?
Elie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Good point. Maybe friend and advisor? I don’t think you ever stop needing to talk with someone that you particularly trust or respect their point of view? What do you call that person? Sure — at the end its just YOU. But she, as all presidents, have advisors on their team. Obama is not and will not be on her team — but he might be a person she talks to from time to time
Gian
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
OK. Cool. Did I argue that he’s not smart? To steal his off used phrase let me be clear he treated Joe Lieberman better than Joe Lieberman deserved after campaigning for the other party’s candidate.
Its actually a Christian kinda thing in the prodigal son type of tradition. Apparently several of you think Lieberman deserved the kind treatment.
I disagree. I think he was treated with forgiveness even though he didn’t really deserve it. I don’t claim to read minds. It could be bare knuckle politics or Christian charity.
I’m done arguing it. We disagree on what campaigning against the candidate who supported your election after you lost your primary deserves.
That or you agree that Lieberman was treated better than he deserved.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dogwood:
President Obama has always been scanning the horizon. He’s been the steady hand at the rudder, every day, of this crazy ship of state. He has such a stable mind. I haven’t accomplished one millionth of what he has, and neither has anyone else. He’s President Black Ninja.
Svoboda for all
I can’t wait to vote for Hillary again.
Also, several of the Bernie fans I know eerily remind me of the Naderites. But now with 24/7 social media. Fortunately, I don’t think Bernie has any interest in a third party run.
different-church-lady
@Cacti:
Oh. So in other words, nobody important.
redshirt
@Gian: Obama’s better than all of us. Probably put together.
different-church-lady
@Steve in the ATL:
Could she really be worse than the rest of the options on the current Republican menu?
John S.
@Cacti:
I can always spare 10 seconds to see the pile of shit, walk around it, and then think “boy am I glad I didn’t step in that“.
The Jerry Springer Show was nationally syndicated too, but I don’t put much stock in what the people who watch that think either.
dogwood
@different-church-lady:
Do you even have to ask that question? She might not be as classy as Donald Trump or as likeable as Ted Cruz, but being fairly reserved, she’d crank the volume of this shit show down significantly. That alone would calm my nerves.
redshirt
@different-church-lady: Not even joking, I’m sure she’d be better then all the clowns that ran this year, and four years ago, and four years before that.
Boatman1776
@Heliopause:
Because the Gallup poll wasn’t measuring enthusiasm for the candidates, it was measuring enthusiasm for voting in the fall. (I know, right? That’s kinda pointless.) Since Hillary is the presumptive nominee, the real takeaway is the (yawn) observation that Sanders’s supporters are not excited by the prospect of having to vote for Hillary, or at least, not as excited as Hillary’s supporters are.
Makes me wonder why Gallup bothered doing the poll. The only use it has is to be spun as “Hillary’s voters are more excited about Hillary than Sanders’s voters are excited about Sanders.” But that would be dishonest and fraudulent. No political operative would EVER do such a thing to fix a perception that their candidate isn’t generating much enthusiasm. Would they?
Robert Sneddon
@Gian: Thing is, at that time Lieberman was a sitting Senator who could support the President or throw spanners and clogs into the machinery. He started to play up, was treated “nice” and the PPACA passed eventually. A number of Blue Dog Democrats did throw spanners and they also got the “nice” treatment for the same reasons.
Sure it would have been great for the soul to see him treated badly because he was being a dick, but no PPACA or even no GBLT enabling legislation for the US military. It’s politics.
Cacti
@John S.:
The front pagers apparently didn’t read the John S. authoritative guide on what people really care about.
Laughing at you, not with you. ;-)
Pat
Clinton is clearly the most qualified candidate, based upon resume…just as Rubio said at the very first Republican debate, regardless of whether anyone lkes the personality profile media has helped Republicans cultivate. How easily Americans are led makes one understand why Congress ignores what kind of democracy Americans want. Lobbyists and Special Interest groups are like ballasts, sandbags on Democracy. How can anyone be free buried in sandbags!
Heliopause
@Boatman1776:
One problem, though, the linked article doesn’t exactly say that, it doesn’t give the exact wording of the question and instead just vaguely says, “enthusiasm for voting in 2016.” But if what you suggest is the case…
…then it starts to make more sense. Since the question isn’t measuring what Marcotte claims it is then her whole premise is whacked. This would come as no surprise, given her dismal record of interpreting poll data this cycle.