Via Bloomberg, Trump, who once described himself as “very pro-choice” but now claims to be “very pro-life,” said women who have illegal abortions should be punished in a manner to be determined later:
At a taping of an MSNBC town hall to be aired later, host Chris Matthews pressed Trump on his anti-abortion position, repeatedly asking him whether abortion should be punished if it is outlawed. “This is not something you can dodge.”
“Look, people in certain parts of the Republican Party, conservative Republicans, would say, ‘Yes, it should,’” Trump answered. “How about you?” Matthews asked.
“I would say it’s a very serious problem and it’s a problem we have to decide on. Are you going to send them to jail?” Trump said. “I’m asking you,” Matthews said.
“I am pro-life,” Trump said. Asked how a ban would actually work, Trump said, “Well, you go back to a position like they had where they would perhaps go to illegal places but we have to ban it,” Trump said.
Matthews then pressed Trump on whether he believes there should be punishment for abortion if it were illegal.
“There has to be some form of punishment,” Trump said. “For the woman?” Matthews asked. “Yeah,” Trump said, nodding. Trump said the punishment would “have to be determined.”
As discussed this morning, there’s no logic or coherence to this or any other position Trump espouses because it’s not grounded in anything other than his ardent desire to make Lady Liberty his next trophy wife.
Will the Republican primary voters figure this shit out before Trump secures the nomination and choose a real forced birther over the fake one? Does it even matter?
EDITED TO ADD:
Per a tweet from The Guardian’s Ben Jacobs, the Trump campaign issued a statement walking back the earlier call for punishing abortion sluts:
"My position has not changed" pic.twitter.com/gzMVcNmqD4
— Ben Jacobs (@Bencjacobs) March 30, 2016
Also, to clarify: Some of y’all made a good point (as Cole did on Twitter) when you noted that it’s morally consistent for people who run around shrieking that abortion is murder to want to hold the woman who is complicit in infanticide (as the forced birthers see it) accountable. But it’s politically stupid to say that out loud, which is why most candidates aren’t dumb enough to go there. And it’s inconsistent with Trump’s other positions on abortion, i.e., exceptions for rape, incest, etc.
A Ghost To Most
He really doesn’t want to actually be president, does he?
goblue72
@A Ghost To Most: Only if it gets good ratings.
Jay C
I wouldn’t worry so much about The Donald’s latest brainfart eruption about abortion: I’m sure that he’ll have another viewpoint to express in a day or so (if he doesn’t walk it back/correct his opinion/ whine about the Mean Nasty Media “unfairly” quoting him before then – maybe by this evening)…
Bill
I suspect this is an attempt to make up ground he’s losing to Cruz. Marquette poll this morning has Trump down 10 points to Cruz in Wisconsin, and woman hating Christofascists are Cruz’s bread and butter.
He’s tossing a bone to Waukesha and Ozaukee county conservative in the Badger State. “See! I’m as hateful as Ted!”
dmsilev
@A Ghost To Most: I think he wants all of the trappings of the President, the
WhiteGold House, the tricked-out 747, the theme music, etc., but not any of the responsibilities that actually come with the job. In other words, he’d probably be content to be a figurehead President and pass off most of the hard work on whatever Dick Cheney equivalent he ends up with.A Ghost To Most
@Jay C:
True. Trump is the walking embodiment of Cleek’s Law.
piratedan
I have to say that the imperfectly stated position mimics a genuinely heartfelt number of god-botherers in the GOP. While we may think it’s absolutely crazy, that is exactly what a good many of them want. They want to criminalize sex between anyone not married and sad to say, it appears that there are a good number of women out there that support this “position”. This is the desire out in the open, not couched in terms of safety for the child, or maintaining women’s health in the effective deniability of care.
theBuhjaysus
@A Ghost To Most:
He really doesn’t want to have to think too hard. He’s good at firing off the cuff tweets and insults. He’s great at making emotional appeals, but all that “detail” stuff isn’t his thing.
He’s a Big Picture-Guy.
Luthe
Right, cause this works just fine in those states where they can’t tell a miscarriage from an illegal abortion.
Also, I would think the complications from a back-alley abortion would be bad enough without adding extra punishment on top of it. But what do I know? I’m just one of those sluts the Christianists want to punish.
goblue72
Criticizing Trump on his lack of “logic” or “consistency” isn’t going to do anyone any good. Its a pencil-necked response and he eats that for breakfast. You don’t beat the bully by whining “that’s not FAAAAAAIIRRR!!!!” or pointing out that his socks don’t match. You beat him by punching him hard straight in the face.
As for his voters – Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. We already know that conservative voters tend to be less informed than other voters. Regular watchers of Fox News are less informed than people who don’t watch any news at all. We know all this. The machers that control the Republican Party have been self-selecting for the dumbest voters to vote for them for decades – “Tax cuts for the rich will get you more money!” “It snows in winter – there’s no global warming!” “Government is the problem!” “Free trade will get you good jobs!” (Sorry, that last one was a DLC catch phrase).
So the GOP already counted amongst its base, a sizable pool of morons. And Trump is just the candidate that best targeted those morons. His IS the moron candidate. His voters are like the population of Idiocracy.
Breezeblock
The best part was that he said the man (I’m thinking that’s the role of sexy baby making partner) involved in this would NOT be punished.
Amir Khalid
@A Ghost To Most:
He might not have a choice in the matter. I can imagine a nightmare scenario (if an unlikely one) where Trump tries his damndest to sabotage his own campaign and gets elected anyway.
AnotherBruce
I don’t think his viewpoints are outside the norm of the rest of the GOP. The only difference is he overtly states that he wants to inflict punishment for abortion. Which is exactly the intent of the recent anti abortion laws that certain states are passing.
Iowa Old Lady
The man is an ignorant, misogynist, fascist fool.
Nemo_N
Someone better ask Teddy if he disagrees.
dogwood
This is what happens when you ratchet up the rhetoric and call abortion “murder”. You have to weasel around about the punishment. If you really believe it’s murder then you should want it to be adjudicated as such. Trump is definitely soft on crime.
BR
Sad to say but I’m happy to see someone, even Chris Matthews, hold him to answering a question. That needs to be done far more.
Princess (now General) Leia
Didn’t he also say men shouldn’t be punished?
MazeDancer
Kasich was asked and replied no punishment for women having abortions.
Will be interesting to hear what Cruz says. Because you know he would love some punishment for women.
Gotta hand it to Tweety, he would not let Trump dodge.
Mary G
I am so outraged that we’re still having this fight so many years since Roe v. Wade . Don’t believe in abortion? Don’t have one and leave the rest of us alone.
? Martin
@Luthe:
Look, if God doesn’t want those women in prison, then He can full well prevent those miscarriages.
Cat48
I just don’t think the Gop can afford to let him be the nominee. He seems to get worse, not better on a daily basis. Just one gaffe after another! Jesus
A Ghost To Most
MSNBC chyron:
Randy P
Thinking ahead to the general, I’ve been “reminiscing” (meaning gnashing my teeth at the memory, being a curmudgeon who remembers old anger) about the Carter-Reagan debates.
Particularly how Carter would crush Reagan’s arguments with cold, hard facts.
And how Reagan would put on his “aw shucks” grin and say ” there ya go again” and shrug.
And how the media announced that Reagan had won.
So I wonder what strategies Hillary has in her back pocket to debate people (Trump especially but any Republican) who don’t care what comes out of their mouth, supported by a media who also doesn’t.
I trust that she is a smart lady who has this covered. But I still wonder.
smintheus
“his ardent desire to make Lady Liberty his next trophy wife”
By contrast, Trump’s supporters just want to pepper spray Lady Liberty in her face.
feebog
Can’t believe that Tweety actually pushed him on this issue. I wasn’t going to watch the Tweety/Trump Townhall tonight, but I might change my mind.
schrodinger's cat
I read in the NYT that one Trump supporter sprayed a 15 year old teen with pepper spray in the face and sexually assaulted her at a rally in Wisconsin.
Betty Cracker
On the Twitter feed, I see Cole has made the point that it doesn’t make a lot of sense for wingnuts to exempt women who get an abortion from punishment after running around screaming about abortion being murder. True, but most Republican politicians aren’t dumb enough to say that out loud.
liberal
I think this is mainly evidence that Trump is just stupid, since “jail the woman” is going to turn off lots of squishy “independents”.
But consider…the right-wing strategy of criminalizing doctors and not women is actually very clever (albeit nefarious). Trump talking about punishing women themselves deviates from all that. So it’s evidence (weak, yes) that he’s really just a plant trying to destabilize the GOP!
(No, I don’t really believe he is, but it has to be considered.)
AnotherBruce
@A Ghost To Most: To which I say, Bullshit!
JPL
A Tennessee woman tried a home abortion, the old coat hangar trick, at twenty-four weeks. The 1.5 pound baby survived but has lifelong damage to lungs and other injuries. She was charged with attempted murder.
link
This is your republican party.
liberal
@Betty Cracker: I doesn’t make any moral sense, but it sure makes political sense. The abortion providers (and the abortion facilities) are the weak link.
Miss Bianca
@Amir Khalid:
“I picked the wrong positions. The wrong things to say. The wrong campaign manager. The wrong followers. WHERE DID I GO RIGHT?”
h/t Mel Brooks
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah, but if *just once* more “reporters” would press these asshats to the wall – “so, do you agree with Donald Trump? Do you think that women who seek abortions should be tried for murder and, if convicted, go to jail?” – it would be a very, very interesting experience. I would say “amusing” but, considering the stakes, not so much.
Chyron HR
Yes, but once he has the nomination he’ll suddenly adopt all of Bernie Sanders’ positions and be elected in a landslide as our new progressive savior.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Iowa Old Lady:
And racist, and of course classist. He is what happens when an 8th grade bully clearly tending toward sociopathy grows up without going to prison.
I suggested to a coffee companion Monday that a public service could have been performed decades ago. He agreed and well, made some predictions about what could happen after a hypothetical election.
BillinGlendaleCA
@MazeDancer:
Tweety’s actually been pretty good at this for awhile. Most Republicans would come on his show and say abortion is murder and the doctor(not the woman) should be charged with murder. He’d always press them on why the woman gets off and the doc rots in prison.
burnspbesq
@Iowa Old Lady:
And somewhere around 60 million of your fellow Americans are going to vote for him in November.
Mike in NC
Drumpf will build dozens of yoooouge and classy jails to lock up the sluts seeking abortions. Lots of construction jobs, followed by lots of law enforcement and corrections officer jobs. Win-win.
Gravenstone
Actually, with his endless sniping at Megyn Kelly, I almost feel like we’re witnessing the Trump mating ritual, for public consumption. To me, he comes across like a pre-pubescent boy who can’t reconcile his attraction with those “icky girl cooties” thoughts for Megyn. Maybe he’s thinking of trading in Melania for trophy wife #4?
A Ghost To Most
@Miss Bianca:
I have often wondered if tRump and the Big Dog have a $1 bet that he could corner the market on wingnuts, ala Trading Places.
liberal
@BillinGlendaleCA:
IIRC he’s one of the few MSM folks who was against the invasion of Iraq.
Not that I think he’s a net positive.
Hungry Joe
@Randy P: Reagan got away with that because he had a remarkable gift: He could, at will, make one of his eyes twinkle. It was uncanny. I’ve long believed that it put him in the White House twice.
This punishment-for-women-who-have-abortions, and/or their doctors, has to be pounded home again and again, and then again. If no moderator brings it up in the debates, Bernie or Hillary has to pluck it out of the air and lay it on the lectern. It’s worth millions of votes.
Librarian
@A Ghost To Most: It’s not even Cleek’s Law- he just says whatever pops into his head at any given moment, and whether it might or might not piss off Democrats seems to be irrelevant.
Heliopause
Why is this a controversy? If you believe abortion is wrong and should be illegal then of course people who do it should be punished in some fashion. It would be goddamned stupid to have a law with no punishment for breaking it. Unless you work on Wall Street, of course.
So Trump’s position is internally consistent and this is another ginned up media nontroversy. People who take the position that abortion should be illegal but not punished are the ones being logically incoherent, just another example of politicians trying to pander to the mythical center on this issue.
SFAW
@MazeDancer:
He won’t say it — at least, not anywhere he could be taped saying it — but what he really wants is Gilead. That way the slatternly slutty-sluts can still have sexy-time, just not when THEY want to. Problem solved!
Ridnik Chrome
@AnotherBruce: Don’t forget that writer for the National Review who thinks that women who have abortions should he hanged. Someone should ask Trump if that’s what kind of punishment he has in mind…
CONGRATULATIONS!
Trump won’t be the nominee. That’s very clear now. The GOP will throw the convention if they have to and appoint a nominee. Yeah, they’ll lose the election but at this point that’s one of the least damaging possible outcomes.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m waiting to see how that turns out after investigation. An older (grown ass man) got in her face and pointed at her (from the long view shot) and she tells him not to touch her. From the closer view shot they are arguing about whether the touched her and he insists he didn’t (in a rather smug way). they are surrounded, and her crew seems to try to move her away. Older dude seems to cord back in and she punches him ( in a pretty inept fashion that embarrassed me). Immediately some younger guy pepper sprays her at close range.
The crowd sheers. Pepperspray dude (perhaps?) kind of slinks away. People continue to cheer. In the short range video I was struck by the end where a woman talks to older “I never touched you” man – leaning right into his ear (it appears they know one another) and she does not look particularly pleased. A couple different people can be heard saying “not good.” I closed the tabs to the videos I watched or I’d link them.
bemused
@BR:
Chris drives me batty but he is the only tv media head that I’ve ever heard ask that question of a pro-lifer and Trump isn’t the only one he has grilled hard to answer.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Hungry Joe: He sure could. I used to get so pissed at that fucking fraud when he’d pull that shit. That and the gravitas on demand shit. I’d run around my house screaming “why don’t you fuckers understand he’s acting?”
Few ever caught on. I guess he was a better actor than he was ever given credit for.
schrodinger's cat
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Didn’t see the videos, just read the news.
trollhattan
The hell’s up with this?
That any 21st century would back any Republican ever, is mind-boggling.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@trollhattan: Easy to explain. Can you imagine how much money they’d get?
Border Patrol’s been the bottom bitch of the Fed LE empire for a long time. The equivalent of the Coast Guard. What Trump proposes is like taking the Coast Guard and giving them the Air Force’s money. They wouldn’t even know what to do with it all.
Oh and this:
“He has also pledged to triple the number of Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents who enforce immigration law.”
Yeah, that’d get the union peeing their pants with joy.
trollhattan
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Only Phil Hartman figured out the Real Reagan.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
A woman president is looking pretty good right now. This is the perfect storm of hateful dangerous misogyny for Hillary, what with Bernie’s dismissive finger wagging and Trump’s daily outbursts, like the market crash was for PBO. If the market stays steady, she could win 45 states.
Elie
Trump has some sort of organic and/or personality disorder. What is the most troubling is that people and groups keep signing on to his demented view of the world. We seem to be having a mass dementia event… As I have said previously, its not whether Trump will be elected but what the clean up after all this is gonna require…
MattF
Trump knows that he’s in the process of losing evangelical/christianist voters to Cruz, so he has to say ‘XYZ’ in order to hold on to some of them. What does he actually think? First, tell me what ‘actually’ and ‘think’ mean in the preceding sentence.
trollhattan
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Can you just imagine? They’re already the government’s largest law enforcement force.
Matt McIrvin
@Amir Khalid: There have already been a bunch of jokes and satirical stories describing the Trump campaign as a Producers scenario, right down to “Springtime For Hitler”.
Tom Q
I agree with the few people above who say Trump is doing what he does with many of his positions — taking what’s the standard GOP position, removing the Frank Luntz-concocted softening, and carrying it to its logical conclusion. That he’s done this so consistently and recklessly throughout the past year makes me still maintain a sliver of doubt as to whether he’s seriously campaigning for president, or actually running a performance art scam to expose the party’s true heart for all to undeniably see.
It’s hilarious how the right-to-life people have jumped to disavow this. They’ve been almost the Luntz baseline group — obfuscating their actual positions for decades in an attempt to coat regressive policies with reasonableness. Trump giving away their con is lethal to their brand.
scav
I’m beginning to womder why his “Make America Great Again” hats aren’t constructed of tin foil from the get go. It’s like he’s tryong to collect them all — along with the MRAs, KKKs, no-go zone-fans and lawn-chair patriot legions, has he spoken out on Area 51 or the yeti as yet? Coalition of the loonies. Coaloonition. (In this nation, it could be a formidable base.)
Elie
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Yes, I agree — though I think she has to break through in her messaging to separate herself from Bill a lot more. She has embraced Obama’s policies but what hurts her as much or more is how she gets necklaced with her husbands shit.
GregB
@Elie: It’s largely in line with the same mania that overtook much of the nation after 9/11.
Fear erases logic from many minds and they have been amped on the Fox/Drudge-anti-Obama nectar long enough to shut die any sense of reason.
-Greg
trollhattan
@Tom Q:
Bypassing Luntz to drill directly into Lee Atwater’s corpse? Seems like a plan.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Elie:
Don’t forget who’s sidelined now, waiting to come to bat for her in the late innings.
Anoniminous
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
More that journalists are really, really, lazy and very, very, stupid.
Amir Khalid
@Matt McIrvin:
A lot of us may be wondering if this is the one time it actually happens.
Richard Shindledecker
Maybe he’ll just have one of his trolls slap them around a bit.
Elie
@Tom Q:
It would take enormous energy for him to “make up” such an approach to expose the idiocracy at the heart of the Republican Party. I don’t think his behavior is intended to do that. I think he is just effed up in the head, but not yet screwed up enough to completely leave no doubt that he is unmoored. I think that there is a pretty good chance that that will happen. I think he is struggling and that the struggle is real — not an act or purposeful strategy. Time will reveal all…. I am interested in how long it will take the MSM and public to finally accept that he is mentally incompetent when that becomes virtually undeniable.
rk
I’m not sure what the problem is with this position? If you believe abortion is murder then the doctor performing it and the woman getting it are both murderers. Both have to be punished. It’s an honest position and I despise republicans who say they don’t believe that the woman should not be punished. I really like Trump in a way. He’s just out there exposing the evil that’s conservatism and it’s about time the country got a good look at what republicans really are all about. In fact I’d appreciate it even more if they say that the woman should be stoned to death. Because that’s really what their religion says. Since their opposition to abortion is religion based, then the punishment should also be religion based
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@schrodinger’s cat: Close angle. At 0:50 the woman wearing sunglasses appears to be speaking to the gray haired guy as if she is not happy with him.
This is a longer video where you can see the pepper sprayer moving into position and clearly spraying. Stipulating that she shouldn’t have punched him (again, it’s an embarrassment to call it a punch, but she’s young), but Douchebro PepperSpray shouldn’t have sprayed, and that was the actual injurious conduct.
@Elie: Stipulating the Trump seems to exhibit some pretty classic personality disorder behaviors, I wonder if there is additionally some dementing in evidence as well. His cognitive functional ability is remarkably weak.
Full disclosure: IANAMD
rikyrah
Once again, I ask what is the POLICY difference between what Trump is saying and what the GOP is doing on the state level when it comes to reproductive rights?
I will continue to ask this…because nobody has shown me any difference.
bemused
When Trump can’t get away with saying how fantastic he is, he is totally unable to answer even the simplest question with any coherence.
Booman is speculating if Trump is just waiting to take the best exit ramp out of the campaign trail.
chopper
and he wants to be our latex salesman.
gratuitous
Next time I get into it with some Trump supporter, I think I’ll ask “So, what’s Trump’s position on Issue X?” Should be good for a laugh or two.
gene108
People are already going to jail for “illegal” abortions.
In state, after state, after state.
I’m not sure why Trump’s gun shy about saying he’d jail the sluts, ’cause it’s not like he’d be breaking new ground or introducing new punishments. The status quo’s already sending women to jail for abortions.
Cermet
@rk: problem: the bible doesn’t condemn abortions;hence stoning isn’t allowed nor any biblical punishment. Abortion is, in fact, condoned by the babel …I mean bible. Pregnant woman who break some such and such law can be put to death for that crime and the fetus dies with her (the woman, no matter how late in term is not allowed to give birth first.)
MazeDancer
No surprise – Trump has changed his position already. The full interview hasn’t even aired yet and he’s put out a statement. Punish the doctors/providers not the women.
Here’s a copy of new Trump position from Twitter
rikyrah
@Tom Q:
BOOM.
That’s what he’s doing. But, there is NO POLICY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Elie: Unlike Raygun, Trump can’t be carefully controlled (as if at all, LOL) to disguise the unmoored cognition. St. Ronaldus Maximus could be stage managed to keep his sub rosa, if you will. But ain’t nobody gonna tell the Donald what to do.
Which is why I believe we will see an implosion; the question is when. The next question is how long after that will the media actually report it.
Miss Bianca
@Heliopause:
Are you really asking why this is a controversy? Why the anti-choicers are so adamant about trying to punish *doctors* but not the women seeking abortions (except by making them illegal, of course, but that’s another issue)?
It’s because each of them, whether they would ever cop to it or not – whether they are even aware of it or not – knows a woman who has had an abortion. It may be their mothers, or their sisters, or their daughters, or their girlfriends or wives. And it’s all very well to force these *other* sluts to have babies – or punish them for trying to get rid of them – but not their special snowflakes. So if you press them on the matter, they’re going to go a little squishy.
I had to deal with people like this when I worked in the family planning trade. It’s weird, and maybe hypocritical, but I actually take it as a hopeful sign. Anti-choicers may be hypocrites – and some are even monsters – but on this issue they will squirm, because whether they know or not…they know.
ETA: Of course, things can change, and as another comenter pointed out upthread, there is some movement toward jail time for women who get abortions. But the optics of it are highly distasteful for a variety of reasons, and so I’m not at all surprised to hear that even hard-core Republicans are tut-tutting over Trump’s position (which he is apparently already walking back).
Anoniminous
At the beginning of the month I thought Trump would have it locked by this time. Nope. Blew that one.
Looking at the standings, Trump needs 501 delegates, Cruz needs 774, and Kasich 1,094 delegates to get to a first round nomination out of the 943 still available. Its doable for Trump, possible and highly unlikely for Cruz, and Kasich can’t do it. However Trump needs 53% of the outstanding delegates going forward and so far he’s gotten 48% (roughly his current polling support) of allocated delegates, not good. The earliest Trump can clinch is May 24th and that’s if he wins every single delegate between now and then. Won’t happen. So we’re looking at the GOP nominating race not being decided until the last primaries on June 7th.
The only realistic winning strategy for Cruz and Kasich is to stay in the race, keep Trump from a first round nomination, and then work to get the nod during the convention.
Brachiator
@goblue72:
What does this mean in the context of a political campaign?
And Trump is not just a bully. He is a canny rhetorical counter puncher. He strikes back when attacked. So what, exactly, do you propose to bring him down?
Trump supporters have rejected box Fox News and the National Review, and other official propaganda organs of the GOP. His supporters are not organized around misinformation, but on hot button issues of immigration and defense. How are you going to counter the man who brags that he is going to give the people exactly what they want?
So are you hoping that there are more idiot Democrats than idiot Republicans?
I don’t think you have sized Trump up correctly. But the best hope might be that he alienates more religious Republicans by being inconsistent about abortion. This may push more Republicans toward Cruz, the fanatic, as opposed to Trump, the idiot.
Amir Khalid
@Elie:
Short of running as Hillary Diane Rodham (no Clinton), can she really separate herself that much from Bill? And remember, the last Democratic nominee who tried distancing himself from Bill didn’t quite manage to win the election. Al Something, I think his name was.
smith
@Miss Bianca:
Might get even squishier if you point out that such laws would require a criminal investigation every time a woman has a miscarriage.
JPL
@JPL: I’m linking back to my link, because this is what the candidates should be asked. Trump is backtracking but a woman in Tennessee has already been charged with attempted murder. Ask each and every candidate how they feel about this. Abortion was legal but not available.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Amir Khalid: Al Something is Fat – is that the guy you mean?
Amir Khalid
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Yeah, that guy.
patroclus
I agree with what’s been said – Trump is deliberately trying to outflank all of the other Republicans to the right on every single issue, with much more inflammatory rhetoric than they ever use and, so far, it has worked. It’s what Cruz did in Texas, it’s what Romney tried (with his self-deportation stance), and it’s what generally works in Republican primaries all the time. By taking every “conservative” position to its logical extreme, he has cleverly undermined their attempts to seem reasonable while advocating ridiculous positions. But he finally has reached a point where doing so sounds too ridiculous and he’s getting some “moderate” pushback. In the long run, this might begin the process of moving the Republicans off their extreme positions, but in the short run, I have no idea how it’ll turn out.
I can remember when Reagan said something like that and Jim Baker immediately went out and walked back the “punish the women” implication. Since then, even extreme anti-women’s freedom advocates have maintained this subterfuge. Trump just ripped the mask off.
Elie
@Amir Khalid:
Of course, she is MARRIED to Bill so her degrees of freedom are small. Still, in some of her responses to questions she could somehow tweak her position a little to say where she might differ. She already has to some extent and she and Bill have said they regret the prison/jail policy (three strikes?). I just think she gets a lot of the Bill blowback and was trying to think how she could finesse a little space. May not be possible though.
gogol's wife
@trollhattan:
THAT IS THE GREATEST COMEDY SKETCH IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. I’ll never forget the first time I saw it.
Miss Bianca
@smith:
Yes. In fact, since this shit has been going on for a long time now, that issue has come up before now. I remember one of Planned Parenthood’s most striking ad campaigns in the 90s was an image of a white Jane Everybody standing on her doorstep facing down a couple guys in trenchcoats. The caption being something like: “How would you like it if the police came to question you about your miscarriage?”
Brachiator
@Miss Bianca:
I appreciate your perspective on this. Maybe it really will create an opening where something actually meaningful can happen.
hamletta
@smith: In ~2004, Virginia tried passing a law that would require women to report a miscarriage within 48 hours or face criminal charges, and the cops raised holy hell. They didn’t want the hassle, not to mention the heartbreak.
Who doesn’t know someone who’s had a miscarriage?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Amir Khalid: Did he have a LOCKBOX?
Gelfling545
@Randy P: this has concerning me for a bit. I don’t see how Clinton or Sanders or any rational being can actually do anything that could be considered debate with the likes of Trump. Trump doesn’t do debate. He just blathers.
smith
@gogol’s wife:
When I first glanced at your comment I thought you were referring to the 2016 campaign. Works either way, I guess.
Betty Cracker
@Amir Khalid: Another thing she can and is doing is pointing out that it’s 2016 and things have changed.
JPL
@Gelfling545: W won his debates also. I do think that there is a chance Trump will call Hillary a fat ass. That could be a game changer.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Betty Cracker: Yup, Bill came into office after 12 years of Raygun/Bush, and the issues in the 90’s were much different, and we have the advantage of hindsight of what did and didn’t work.
patroclus
@trollhattan: I’d be willing to bet that Al Franken wrote that.
dogwood
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I never saw Reagan as being controlled. He was a major part of movement conservativism for years. He got elected, filled his cabinet and government agencies with like-minded foot soldiers, and became the front man of the operation. No one had to control Reagan because he wasn’t trying to control very much.
AkaDad
Trump’s economic policy just got more amazing. Jailing women for having an abortion will create jobs for men and women who aren’t whores.
dogwood
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Presidential debates are not as important as the media and and political junkies think they are. There aren’t many votes on the table when they occur.
Miss Bianca
@Brachiator:
Yeah, you keep hoping. I remember a time when a woman I recognized from the picket lines at another clinic brought in her granddaughter to the clinic I worked at for a “procedure”. A girl of about 15. Took me a while to realize why the older woman’s face was familiar. She was nervous as hell about it, too. But we were all cool about it, the kid had the procedure done, and I found myself wondering whether this was going to change the other woman’s perspective. Nope. I saw her back on the picket lines just a couple weeks later, like it had never happened.
Sometimes I found myself wishing I could just break confidentiality in cases like that, to make a point. But you can’t. You just can’t. You just suck it up and hope.
Elie
What would Trump have to do or say to let you know he was not just a shrewd strategist using off the chain approaches versus just unglued/unmoored ( like in dementia)? Is there something that would catch your attention and move you? Right now the media types seem to be chuckling dryly but casting sidelong glances to each other without giving in to certainty that Trump is off the chain permanently. Problem with that is that their is a tendency to “normalize deviance” — that is — “get used to” the behavior abnormality and set the threshold of acceptability lower and lower. Again, I believe his manifestations will continue to increase in number and bizarreness. To me, his speech patterns and scrambled thinking are already major indicators that he is unfit to be a candidate, much less a president. The guy has to go but it might take a while and not sure how he will be removed.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Throwing women in jail proves Susan Sarandon is right – a Trump presidency would be good for America.
Sure, a little pain would be involved, but no pain no gain, and besides only the little people feel pain.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Miss Bianca: That was such a great image.
OT, you said something witty and wonderful in a post yesterday that I meant to comment on. You say so many such things it’s always hard but we also had lots of Lewandowski discussions that in the end I sort of gave up trying to even read things. But I think I had a witty rejoinder and I wanted to thank you for that specific comment.
@dogwood: I think my image is that he was a manipulated cog in movement conservatism for many years, becuase I have a potted plants that are brighter than he was even in his youth. Other than that minor quibble, your statement is one I agree with entirely. I just can’t imagine him having an actual original idea. My failure of imagination, perhaps.
JPL
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I agree with your sentiments.
delphinium
@Miss Bianca: Yeah I typically don’t engage the uterine-coveting death cultists that picket. I had stopped at a light one time outside a clinic and one of them threw a pamphlet in my window and started talking to me. She claimed to be a nurse but when I said one of the best ways to reduce the abortion rate is to provide healthcare and education all she could do was get angry and scream “No” at me over and over. So much for trying to have a rational discussion about the subject. Don’t think we can ever reach people like that even if they know people who have gone thru the experience.
Cermet
@Miss Bianca: Hypocrisy is the standard currency of 99.9999+% of believers in religion.
Jay C
@Jay C: @A Ghost To Most:
I think we were too pessimistic: apparently Trump walked back his abortion remarks in three hours: which has to be some sort of record, even for The Donald. Except, of course, when he contradicts himself in a single speech….
Betty Cracker
@Miss Bianca: Were you able to give her a little wink or something so she would know that you knew? What a contemptible hypocrite!
SiubhanDuinne
@Amir Khalid:
Sounds like a movie. A comedy movie. A Mel Brooks comedy movie.
Miss Bianca
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
aw, shucks. I’m blushing now.
Gotta bug out for the hunt’s “falling off party” – since I got unseated twice this season, I owe two bottles of wine to the company! But if any Bundy updates come in tonight, well…
(Terminator Voice): I’LL BE BACK.
mclaren
Secret twins?
Trump 2016.
Invaders From Mars (1953)
I knew I’d seen that face somewhere before!
Grumpy Code Monkey
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Oh, there will be shenanigans at the convention designed to deny Trump the nomination. “Okay you plebs, you’ve had your fun, but
RomneyRyan is going to be the nominee and you will like it.”Question is how badly it will backfire.
Of course, I still want to believe that the Trump campaign is an elaborate troll on the GOP orchestrated by Bill Clinton. I want to believe that at the end of the day, he and Hillary look at each other and laugh until they pass out.
@scav:
That reminds me, at the county convention the Stonewall Democrats (the LGBT caucus) had hats with the message “Make America Gay Again.”
Brachiator
@Elie:
I’m not sure that I see a problem here for Clinton.
She is married to Bill, but she has never been co-governor or co-president. She may have supported his policies, but she did not hold any elective office, was not a member of his cabinet, and was not in any way beholden to any of his positions.
Now, she has cannily said that she wants to continue the Obama Administration, but this is different since she is an officer of that administration.
Otherwise, Clinton is her own person. She can be bold or cagey about this in terms of expectations, but she can shrug off any attack that seeks to strongly attach her to the Bill Clinton Administration easily.
Detractors can say, “unfair, she said she approved of his policies at the time!” Tough cookies.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Betty Cracker: I might lack the self control to have avoided saying “it’s nice to see you.” But I also once observed a woman with a young relative(?) heading into such an establishment. I recognized her from her appearance as a criminal trespass defendant a few months previously. I suspect she recognized me as well, since she was in a group of 67 and there was only 1 of me.
I was much younger and kinder then, so I simply stood between the signholders and them. I’m much less tolerant now.
@Miss Bianca: Ooh, have so much fun. I miss it so; I was a semi-regular guest. Happy sipping.
Origuy
@efgoldman:
No, but the granddaughter is. IANAL, but HIPPA is pretty tight about things like this.
Kathleen
@A Ghost To Most: I really don’t think the MSNBC chyron knows what the hell it’s talking about.
Heliopause
@Miss Bianca:
It’s true that this was something of a rhetorical question on my part.
That’s the logically incoherent position on their side and, frankly, it’s their problem to deal with. Knock yourselves out, conservatives.
The incoherent position on our side is (1) “safe, legal, and rare,” and (2) that the question was posed to Trump in the first place. It’s another example of an idiot centrist implying and conceding that there is a mythical compromise on this issue, which the other side always uses to chip away endlessly at this fundamental right. Doing this might gain the centrist politician short term benefit, long term the fundamental right has now been eroded to the point that it is de facto impossible to exercise it in large parts of the country.
Elie
Made a comment which is in moderation — not sure why it would need to be, but there it is….
WarMunchkin
Looking at polls here, I think Cruz might actually pull this out and force a brokered convention, easily. Trump looks like he’s not going to keep winning winner-take-all states anymore, especially with Kasich falling. I don’t see how Trump ends up winning a brokered convention.
smith
@Origuy: And I’m pretty sure the clinic would have very strict confidentiality policies considering all the serious blowback some of their patients could face if information about them got out.
jl
@Kathleen: Clearly, Trump has put just a whole bunch of the classiest, best, most terrific and fabulous thought into his reproductive health policy. You can tell from the detailed plans and careful consideration of costs and benefits of alternative policies.
If his callous BS has pissed off both the reproductive rights and the pro-life side its a win win.
Cermet
@Origuy: Let us not forget that 1) if she suddenly stopped appearing, there’d surely be difficult questions to answer and lead to the daughter’s abuse at the church or 2) such an “outing” might convince other people not to allow a young girl in need of one from getting one due to that danger or 3) Note the mother didn’t take the daughter but the apparently the grandmother(?) did, which means she might have circumvented the parents and the legal ramifications would be serve; outing her might very well scare off others who might try and help their grandchildren.
Who knows – in the words of that person involved in that christian thingy is supposed to follow “Judge not least thee be judged … “
Kathleen
@Elie: I will say this. My totally apolitical daughter who has said in the past “it doesn’t make a difference who you vote for” was horrified enough to vote in the Florida primary (bad news is I found out she’s a registered Republican and have had a series of “where have I gone wrong” moments.) My point being she, as an apolitical upper middle class suburbanite who was motivated to vote in a primary election, night be a bellwether.
Villago Delenda Est
“My position has not changed”
Missionary, cowgirl, reverse cowgirl, doggy style. What?
Kathleen
@Anoniminous: Well said. Also, too, sycophantic.
Kathleen
@rikyrah: I believe in my heart of hearts there is no difference.
Villago Delenda Est
@Heliopause: If you just realize that the entire controversy over abortion has nothing to do with “life” at all…but with “fucking”, then everything falls into place. It’s all about controlling women. Period. Nothing else at all really concerns the forced birthers. The “life of the child” is not a concern of theirs once the bun is out of the oven. If the act of abortion were so heinous, they’d be in favor of contraception, but they’re not.
This is, and always has been, about fucking, and about removing agency from women. Period. End of discussion.
A Ghost To Most
@Kathleen:
Oh, it knew exactly what was up; the tRump walkback happened within 15 minutes of that appearing.
Mike J
drdavechemist
@Heliopause: Why do you think that “safe, legal, and rare” is incoherent? In my opinion, there are times when abortion is medically necessary, other times when it is highly advisable, and still others when it may the best choice among several bad choices, which is why safe and legal are what I want. On the other hand, I would love to eliminate abortion as the result of birth control not being available or not being used when it should have been–that’s what I mean by rare, and I suspect that I’m not alone in that position. Can you explain why you think my position is “incoherent”?
goblue72
@Brachiator: Trump’s supporters wouldn’t know what National Review was if you wiped their asses with it. Nor would most GOP voters. As for Fox News – I’m pretty sure the majority of his supporters are regular watchers of Fox News. I’m sure there’s some rando Trump supporter who claimed “Fox News is the enemy” based on some random thing a Fox News bimbo said – which they got pissed off about while watching Fox News – but the core of his support comes from the same Fox News watching core that forms a big part of the GOP base at this point.
And yes, it is entirely possible to attack Donald Trump in a general election in a way that the clown car cavalcade of GOP candidates could not. If you are fighting to win the nomination of “most rabid right winger” in the Republican primary, then its pretty hard to fight a guy who is willing to say anything no matter how extreme. The GOP has boxed itself in so bad that the things which make it a powerhouse for winning House seats and state leg seats is the same reason they keep flopping in the GE for President. McCain, Romney, and now Trump? That’s Mondale / Dukakis levels of bad. This is a party that actually featured a stroke victim as a candidate and who actually secured votes (Ben Carson). Trump is tracking to quite possibly fail to achieve a majority of delegates. He cannot even command a majority of his own party.
So, yes. When having to deal with non-hardcore GOP voters (liberal, moderates, swing voters), he actually can get punched in the face hard over all his bullshit, because his bullshit doesn’t play with the general electorate. Hence his godawful poll numbers for the GE.
As for the idiots, the GOP has cultivated a low information voter strategy that has collected a growing number of downmarket whites in their camp than the Democratic camp. And then feed them a steady diet of ignorance. But they aren’t a majority of voters. They are just an increasing portion of the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. (Hence the ability of the “idiot’s candidate” able to blithely run a fact-free, flip flop every hour campaign within the GOP in a way that would never get traction in the Democratic primary.)
Villago Delenda Est
@GregB: “Home of the Brave” my ass. Home of pants-shitting cowards is more like it.
feebog
@efgoldman:
The picketer was not the one having the procedure, her granddaughter was. Even if it had been the picketer, legally she is entitled to confidentiality as well.
Kathleen
@Miss Bianca: I thought there have been reported cases of women being jailed because of “suspicious” miscarriages. It really would not surprise me.
Kathleen
@A Ghost To Most: I am shocked!!! (LOL)
debbie
@Kathleen:
Also because they weren’t thought to be living the way authorities said they should be. I think, maybe in Washington State, a woman was arrested for being in a bar.
Wish my memory was better. But this would seem to be similar.
farthestnorth
serious question: I f you believe abortion is murder and believe in the death penalty, wouldn’t you want to execute both the woman and doctor? I just don’t understand…
Kathleen
@Villago Delenda Est: Yes. They want to punish poor and middle class women for having sex. Let’s face it, wealthy women have always had access to safe abortions and always will.
danielx
@bemused:
Read yesterday (and wish to hell I’d saved the link) a piece by a former Trump staffer of the female variety. She made two points –
1. Donald Trump does not care about anything or anybody except Donald Trump. Which, admittedly, does not exactly constitute a brilliant insight.
2. He really didn’t expect to get this far and really doesn’t want to be president. He wanted to come in a strong second. That was expressed to her in so many words – “your job is to make sure I make second at least”, etc.
Kathleen
@debbie: Thanks, debbie, for the great link. Yes, that’s exactly what I had read about. That is appalling.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mike J: Spoken like a true chickenhawk.
A Ghost To Most
@Kathleen:
Their lives might suck, but feeling superior to someone else makes them warm and fuzzy.
Villago Delenda Est
@chopper: Vandelay Industries?
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Villago Delenda Est: spoken like a guy who used 5 deferments to dodge the draft.
Helen
FUCK that bullshit walk-back.
“the woman is a victim in this case”
NO NO NO she is not, you patronizing fuckstick!
Villago Delenda Est
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: What, he was competing with Dick Cheney to see who could get the most deferments?
mclaren
@danielx:
The piece comes from the site xojane. Not just a staffer, but Trump’s main political strategist.
An Open Letter to Trump Voters from His Top Strategist-Turned-Defector.
This sounds right. Trump got into the race so he could boast that he could have run the country if only [fill in the blank]. Now that he’s winning the Republican primaries, his ego won’t let him get out. But he has no plan, no policies, no platform…just “I’m a winner and winners never quit.”
Trump is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of his depth and it shows.
eemom
I’d comment, but it appears we are living in a world where computers don’t yet exist.
Aleta
Andy Borowitz: Trump Proposes Building Wall Inside Uterus
Enhanced Voting Techinques
@goblue72:
Well except that actual face punching isn’t allowed in US poltics,..yet.
So what is the correct responce “Rape and humilation of the girls aren’t enough of a thrill Donny? Now going for the outright hunting of women for sport?”
scav
So, if I understand the situations correctly, if abortion were to become illegal (to a greater degree) Trump would be all for punishment, although if battery were to be illegal (which it is) why are you persecuting a family man, a good man and why didn’t she scream?
Villago Delenda Est
@scav: I think you’ve captured the maddening inconsistency of it all. Of course, it’s not inconsistent from the POV of a narcissist asshole, so there’s that.
Gin & Tonic
@efgoldman: In your first paragraph, it’s simply “no.” HIPAA is very restrictive.
AkaDad
@Helen:
I agree with you that women aren’t the victims. Men are the true victims here. If women would stop seducing men to satisfy their salcious sexual appetites, they could avoid abortions by using fucksticks instead.
Aleta
@Miss Bianca: You know, I think you did right not calling out the grandmother-type in any way. If shamed, she might not risk helping the next kid. (And there’s definitely word-of-mouth help lines in communities where abortion is illegal or forbidden.) Treated respectfully, her mind has a chance of opening. And there’s always a chance a woman is taking an action against the views of someone she is afraid to confront, in which case she deserves privacy and safety.
Brachiator
@goblue72:
May not entirely be true, and what you miss is the fact that Trump supporters have rejected all of the attempts to undermine Trump which have come from Fox News and its surrogates. And it has been well-established that a significant portion of his support comes from prior non-voters and people who feel totally betrayed by the political establishment. This is more important than their TV watching habits.
But I think I understand more the points you were trying to make. Either way, Trump has more problems within the GOP, both with the grandees and religious conservatives and others who may not think that Trump is not sufficiently pure. If he can’t overcome this hurdle, no one has to worry about him winning the nomination and making it into the general election.
Heliopause
@drdavechemist:
Specifically, the “rare” part. The Supreme Court ruled it a fundamental right, how often it occurs is irrelevant, an unnecessary variable introduced to obfuscate.
dogwood
@drdavechemist:
Nothing about your statement is incoherent. That’s why I support mandatory birth control as part of the ACA. And it’s not just about providing it to poor women. It’s about making it clear that birth control for everyone is normal, fundamental, and necessary. I’m glad abortions are legal and safe, and during my reproductive years I did everything I could to avoid having one.
J R in WV
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Alright now, don’t tease us. What did you coffee partner predict?
We deserve to know what is coming!!
LAC
@BillinGlendaleCA: you mean, tweety isn’t yapping about the time when he and tip o’Neil got drunk and har har har ?
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: It’s the ‘Springtime for Hitler’ campaign.
Paul in KY
@Hungry Joe: He was a better actor than he was given credit. Played a great genial old guy.
Miss Bianca
Deeply dead thread, but just in case any of the interested parties who weighed in on my little story are still around:
HIPPA wasn’t passed yet – this was back in the 90s – but patient confidentiality is, was, and always will be a primary concern of anyone even tangentially connected to the health care field. If the lady in question had chosen to to address the issue of her granddaughter’s AB with me, then *maybe* I would have/could have. But otherwise…no way, Jose. And not likely that she would have brought it up.
And to be honest, I can’t be sure *she* recognized *me*. It’s a pretty stressful situation, coming in for an abortion, even under the best of circumstances. She might have, because I was one of the ones who would chat up the protesters and pretend to be persuadable to their views in an effort to keep them from confronting patients. But it’s amazing what we can close our eyes to!