The first person to withdraw his Trump endorsement after last night was Jon Huntsman. That was basically instantaneous, and perhaps not a huge surprise if you know Huntsman. Today we have Mike Lee, Gary Herbert and Jason Chaffetz. Utah, Utah Utah. Mitt Romney never considered supporting Trump for an instant.
Anyone want to guess what these people have in common? Those old LDS TV ads were not joking. Nice matters a lot to Mormons. Trump is done in Utah. He should also worry quite a lot about other states with substantial Mormon communities, like Arizona and Nevada. He is probably ok in Idaho though. So there’s that.
Chat about whatever.
RaflW
Lee wasn’t an endorser, so he’s now moved to a ‘push to resign’er.
Could Utah actually hand Trump a third place finish? I’d relish that sooooo much.
Corner Stone
Ayotte releases statement saying she will not vote Trump.
Pence now also set to *not* attend event in Wiscy today.
swiftfox
Idaho is #2 at 19% Mormon. Skinhead percentage probably negates Mormon influence.
scott
The Mormons I know are generally wonderful people. I think they will be reconsidering their relationship with the Republican Party.
Villago Delenda Est
Chafftez is still a walking sack of pigshit. That has not changed.
Elizabelle
Jon Huntsman does not get his reputation back, after endorsing Trump last week. Self-inflected wound.
RE the Mormonism: maybe it’s a sincere repudiation of bad behavior, but how much of it is posturing for other Mormons? Because Jason Chafetz is relentlessly cruel and stupid towards persecuting Hillary Clinton. That is not Mormon or Utah nice.
And the Border Agents look like morons. Same with that ridiculous police union.
I ask us: why should we trust their judgement?
RaflW
Oh, and Mike Lee will be debating the dem, Misty K Snow live on C-SPAN at 8pm EDT on Wednesday. I won’t be able to watch it live unfortunately.
lamh36
So instead she’s gonna write in the name of the candidate who’s helped pass laws that harm women?
Whatever Kelly..whatever…
lamh36
RaflW
@Corner Stone: Pence now also set to *not* attend event in Wiscy today.
Aha! Thanks for this. I was wondering if Ryan’s staff would drop to the idea that the whole ticket is now toxic.
Yup.
Elizabelle
@scott:
re the Mormons reconsidering their political affiliation:
That could be really interesting. Plenty of family friendly and planet-good stewardship reasons to take a sincere look at the Democratic party.
The hard right Mormons won’t look, but it’s a private ballot, and some of the kinder-hearted and brighter Mormons might be just fine with leaving the GOP.
However, separation between church and state. They are free to practice their religion, but not impose it on the rest of us.
Shell
Notice how Trump apologizes like a five-year old? With the Birther denial it was “Okay, Obama was born in the US, but Hillary started it!” “Im sorry I said all those horrible things about women, but Bill Clinton is worse!”
amk
@Elizabelle: Yup. mittbot was a cut above him from day one.
bemused
Just heard on msnbc that Pence will not go to Wisconsin campaign event.
scav
Wonder how Trump’s outreach to the Amish is doing about now.
Corner Stone
The question I have kind of been thinking about. Billy Bush knew this happened. He knew he’d look foolish but he also knew the level of ick for Trump would be many levels more damaging. And yet he never told his cousin Jeb! or anyone on his team it existed?
Wonder how the main branch of Bush family is feeling about good ole Billy right about now?
? Martin
@Corner Stone: The key to the ‘replace Trump with Pence’ fantasy is that Pence doesn’t bail before Trump acquiesces to be dumped. Sounds like Pence may not emerge from his Bible Bunker for the next month.
Run, Lillian!
@srv: Scott Adams is a MRA POS. And the new battle ground isn’t “spousal fidelity” it is assaulting women. srv, you continue a steady streak of bringing the ugly to these threads.
Also, I lost all respect I may have had for John Huntsman when he endorsed Trump in the first place.
Also, too, the republicans treat women’s bodies like community property so how is what Trump did a bridge too far for the trans-vaginal ultrasound crowd? Oh yeah, they need suburban white womens’ votes. I am just disgusted.
Hunter Gathers
@srv: Adams is right. What we need is a leader who will pop a couple of tic tacs and grab ISIS by the pu$$y. Having a rapey POTUS is just what the world needs. Let’s just treat everyone who isn’t American just like Rapey Donnie treats women. They’re all just a bunch of sluts, right? Fuck ’em. Fuck ’em right in the pu$$y.
amk
@lamh36: I will vote for pence. wtf does it even mean?
lamh36
So I guess like Ayotte you’re gonna see ALOT of GOP losers talking about writing in Mike Pence name rather than voter for Don Trump?
Wouldn’t it be smarter for Pence to withdraw his name and salvage something for 2020?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t. I don’t get him. Took a high profile job from Obama in a show of post-partisan unity then quit in what he seemed to have thought was some kind of statement but never followed up with any policy critique, ran for president as a moderate (wasn’t he the only one in ’12 who refused to take the Norquist pledge and said he believed in evolution?) and/or to spite Romney, joined No Labels, endorsed Trump for no discernible advantage to himself or his family, many of whom are said to be Jack Mormons….
is he just kind of the dingbat son of an old billionaire? His actions look a lot like a rich dilettante who chose politics as a hobby but has no attention span
Baud
@amk: Yep. Who knew?
? Martin
@Corner Stone: Jeb knew. Everyone knew. Rick Wilson has been saying this stuff is out there, and he’s now saying there is much worse out there.
The Dangerman
@Corner Stone:
Yeah, he ain’t dropping out, but he may be basically in witless protection for a while (30 or so days); no reason for him to put his face out in public more than is necessary.
Corner Stone
@Elizabelle:
It’s similar to what Kay has been saying: Trump leaves shit on everyone he touches.
For all its damage and heat and everything else negative, this election is going to be revelatory for pretty much every level of our society. From people, to voters, to institutions, the media, elected officials. It is all being laid bare.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@amk: there may be a good ad for Hassan if she has good people doing that. IIRC New Hampshire Republicans and indies don’t much care for bible-banging hay shakers “She supported this guy for months, but now finally is switching to this guy?”
Baud
@Corner Stone: I’ve been calling it clarifying since forever. I like being proven right.
scav
@amk: Trying to hold onto those evangelicals that are counting on the divine bolt of lightning to take out Trump as he takes the oath of office so that his cunning plan to appoint the One True Savior to the Presidency is revealed in all it’s glory. They can’t take Trump off the ticket, so maybe write-ins (especially as it’s so easy to spell). Also, down ticket concern for the party. There’s a similar concern in McCain’s “He alone bears the burden of his conduct and alone should suffer the consequences”. Little tiny firewalls.
Amir Khalid
@srv:
Scott Adams still thinks Trump has a 98% chance of winning? What on Earth is Adams smoking?
amk
Decades of vile misogyny finally catches up with the serial sexual abuser. Karma.
Anoniminous
@lamh36:
Pence’s political career is over, his loser stink can’t be washed off. He bailed out of Indiana because he was going to lose, tied himself to Trump, and now Trump is exploding bigger and faster than an H-Bomb.
randy khan
@srv:
This merely confirms that Adams really *is* an idiot.
dmsilev
From TPM, “On Saturday, Trump remained at his apartment in New York City as a barrage of criticism mounted against him.”. I’m getting a real bunker vibe here. Has anyone made a Downfall re-caption video of this yet?
Corner Stone
I don’t know how that dumb POS Scott Adams even ties his own shoes at this point. That is not the new battleground, although it would be delicious to think so. But if it were, how in the fuck could anyone say Trump V HRC is a good thing for his winning on it?
Ruviana
Nice!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
anybody wanna charter a bus to Massapequa or Yonkers?*
@Anoniminous: it’s hilarious watching people who are alleged experts saying Pence is the new front-runner. He’s Rick Santorum with a more adult affect.
*guesses about suburban NY Trump country gleaned for your pop-culture, I don’t know the area
amk
@scav: But hers is not even a fundie state. Maggie should use this for the final push.
Corner Stone
This GD Trump shennany BS has me writing more run-on sentences than my normal well metered prose.
I need to go back to SchoolHouse Rock for a refresher course on conjunctions.
lamh36
@Corner Stone: I’m thinkin Billy didn’t really know and if he did…it’s obvious from the tape he was all get along to get along with Trump. So 10 years on he likely forgot it, since “he was a younger man then” (how about that bullshit…he was 33!!! explains ALOT about his defense of Ryan Lochtes).
So 10 years after of course he doesn’t recall it. Then Trump starts winning. Then Trump wins nom. Then entire GOP clears the way…then Trump actually starts creepin up in polls…so then you can bet ALL NBC properties or entertainment entities began to look through all their Trump family stuff…likely to find some fluff piece…”here’ the Donald before becoming President” with soft lighting and Road to the White House flare…
But no they come back with this treasure trove (of course there is more…) and according to reports they decide to sit on it…and rather than release it to national news, instead they plan another “soft pedal” via their entertainment properties.
But someone, and who knows maybe it was Billy Bush after being made aware of the footage for all we know, scooped NBC before NBC could try to use it for their own narrative building.
MazeDancer
Update on the surprise of Hugh Hewitt calling for Trump’s withdrawal discussed in thread below.
Hewitt tells Joy Reid it is because Trump is “unelectable”. Joy even asks him if there is any morality in his decision. Apparently, no. Hewitt is still all only SCOTUS counts and since Trump can’t win now, he wants to Dump Trump.
So, not everything has changed. Hugh Hewitt still without morals.
Amir Khalid
@The Dangerman:
I’m not sure if there’s any way to reconcile these two statements: “Trump and Pence aren’t welcome at my rally” and “Trump for President!”
eric
@lamh36: hey, so now the virulent anti-gay mike pence matters. good times. nice self inflicted wound, kelly
ETA: kelly, where do you stand on Pence’s mandatory funeral for fetuses?
PPCLI
According to Temple Taggart McDowell, Miss Utah 1997, Trump kissed her and several other contestants on the lips without asking or being invited. He was married to Marla at the time, and it’s not just dirty old man behaviour but it is, in fact, assault. This was reported in the New York Times, May 15 2016. Chaffetz could have called fellow Utah-an Ms. McDowell to ask if this was true. He didn’t.
Chaffetz was willing to endorse and champion a serial assaulter whose contempt for women was amply documented, including several cases of rape or sexual assault reported under oath,
Now that Trump is likely to lose, and is evidently an enormous political liability, Chaffetz is covering his ass. What a reptilian human being.
Corner Stone
@Anoniminous:
It’s a yoog explosion, but a really classy one. We have only the best explosions, the very best. Believe me.
MattF
@randy khan: And, I admit, I used to like the Dilbert strip. I knew Adams was an oddball, but not to this degree.
Cermet
This will also hurt him in many Southern States – not enough to swing any such State but it will hurt his popular vote for sure; but what it really helps is the really close swing States and in a manor that helps Hillary a great deal. NC, and Ohio have many values voters that will not overlook this event. True, not really large numbers but I bet a few tens of thousands (total) and that matters a great deal with those two States neck-and neck between the dump and Hillary. The October surprise was far, far better than anyone on the dem side ever thought! LOLOLOL
Lurker Extraordinaire
Fuck the Republicans and conservatives in general with a rusty fucking chainsaw covered in Ebola and Zika.
They draw the line at lewd comments, but do everything they can to hamper or eliminate women’s rights at every turn, yet they can “look into the eyes of their daughters” everyday believing and spouting this bullshit? But their dumbass nominee saying “pussy” and advocating sexual assault (which many conservatives think is okay unless the victim is a young, white, Christian virgin on her way from Bible study) is too much!?
Fuck their collective couches. It’s time for them all to BURN.
scav
@amk: But so much of management boilerplate doesn’t take account of local differences and may in fact come from above. She’s perfectly free to be doing things wrong.
amk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yup. Hassan should go for it. The ugly flipflop landing on even uglier pence.
MomSense
@Corner Stone:
I have a hunch Jeb is not liked outside his immediate family.
Elizabelle
@Corner Stone: Kay’s so right about the reverse Midas touch, and filth by association.
Hope NBC gets smeared good and hard, and Jeff Zucker is forced out of CNN. NBC has enabled Trump like nothing I have ever seen, and CNN has been ridiculous.
Mostly, though, so many people pulled the wool over their own eyes about Trump. And then they call us “sheeple.” It’s a 21st century cold civil war.
AnotherBruce
@srv: Scott Adams is a political moron. The truth about this election is that Hillary is much tougher than Donald could ever hope to be. As a fighter, Donald can only punch down. He’s up against someone much smarter than he is, and Hillary is embarrassing him to the point of ruin. She’s nearly finished him off already. Scott better unskew his internal poll. Because he’s going to be in shock by November 8th.
Cermet
@MattF: He is a pig that basically indicated that raping woman really isn’t too evil …his support for the dump is right along his character. After that article about rape last year, I never read his strip again.
Corner Stone
@? Martin: They can’t have known and not used it. They knew how he was with women but they didn’t give a shit. If they knew this tape existed they would have leaked it at some point. Maybe right after the Carly’s Face thing.
If the entirety of the GOP ratfucking machine knew this tape existed and as a whole they all decided to not use it? What in the everloving fuck does that mean?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
this is hilarious
I may have to follow some links to look at Ruffini’s “math” and what states he think Pence can win with write-ins. “With enough court rulings….” = “If I had magic powers like Harry Potter….”. and if all the angry Bubbas and she-Bubbas drop Trump, and all the African-Americans and Latinos stay home, and all the polling places in college towns are mysteriously shut down… Pence could totes win Alabama and Oklahoma!
eric
the good news is that, based upon my FB feed, the same people that championed Trump before, still do, all the while going with “yes, but Hillary and Bill really physcially hurt people.” Import: Trump is going nowhere, and remians ours to shit on till his name is a cindering corpse
Corner Stone
@MazeDancer: Joy Reid gave HH three chances to say something decent, human, or just normal. And Hewitt panned it every time and just said that disgusting shit about electability. He is a thoroughly disgusting humanoid type something.
Jeffro
@srv: lol… it sure change things for my dad who I thought would never be moved from his pro tromp positions
Soylent Green
@scott:
Not gonna happen. They don’t want to vote for Hillary either. So their turnout will be low and the outcome a wash.
I’m a Utah State grad. Very nice people there. But their RW views run pretty deep.
wenchacha
What I am loving is how this is turning into “Trump’s Katrina.” CNN is wall-to-wall breathless reports about Matthew, and this Trump cyclone. Last night, whole sections of multi-screen pundits were agreeing that it’s over for Trump. Calling him irredeemable.
And then Trump’s most excellent furious apology.
MattF
@eric: There are people who are genuinely undecided, and there are people who will never, ever vote for Hillz under any circumstances. I have no idea about the size of either group.
Percysowner
@Corner Stone:
I do think Bush family Thanksgiving will be interesting this year. Now, the fact that Billy knew this conversation happened didn’t mean he knew that 1) it was taped and 2) the tape still existed. So if he told Jeb! about the conversation it would have been gossip and at the time, just gossip wasn’t hurting Trump.
Corner Stone
Joe Heck getting loudly and repeatedly BOOOOOEEED!! At his rally after saying he wants Trump to step down.
Anoniminous
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t know who Patrick Ruffini is but the poor guy needs some Mental Health intervention stat. A round or two of thorzine while being observed by kind and gentle people perhaps.
dmsilev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s hilarious and makes no sense whatsoever. Let’s say that there’s an organized campaign to write in Pence; most of the people who are likely to do that would have voted for Trump absent pu$$y-gate, whereas everyone who was going to vote for Clinton is still going to do so. Thus, every vote that moves from Trump to Pence would make it more likely that Clinton would win a particular state. She’d win 350 electoral votes easily, and quite possibly more.
And that’s assuming that an effective national write-in campaign can be carried out in 4 weeks.
Wapiti
@Amir Khalid:
I’m not sure what he’s smoking, but I’m thinking that “election forecasting” is another one of those skills Adams won’t master with one hour of study.
Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck
@Elizabelle:
You misunderstand. ‘Nice’ is different from ‘good.’ They are offended by his crassness. Deeply, deeply offended. Maintaining a squeaky clean image is a major part of Mormonism.
eric
@Corner Stone: the rats are fucking themselves. great news for Hillary, terrible news for Heck.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I can see Bar, large gimlet in hand, gazing out over Walker’s Point and remarking casually to Neilsie, “I don’t care much for Jeb”
Lurker Extraordinaire
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Massapequa, maybe. Yonkers? Highly doubt it.
Anoniminous
@Corner Stone:
I love the stench of a GOP faction fight during a presidential election. It smells of VICTORY!
Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck
I point to @srv as the definitive proof that srv is a performance troll, trying to find the most ridiculous things that might get a rise. Supporting Trump is a gold mine for ridiculousness.
As for Adams…
You just told us a lot more about yourself than America, Scott.
qwerty42
@lamh36: …Wouldn’t it be smarter for Pence to withdraw his name and salvage something for 2020?
Pence is too slow-witted. Good for a radio host, but not so great as President. The people who would go for him will prefer Kasich. Just as RW, but not tainted with Trump. And seems to be smarter too.
amk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: student of unskewered polls university?
Tokyokie
@AnotherBruce: Point of ruin is right. What do you think the Trump brand will be worth come Nov. 9? About the same as the loose change I carry, I’d guess.
nonynony
@dmsilev: I assume that’s where the court cases come in – to get Trump votes to count as Pence votes in states under a conservative circuit. SCOUTS is assumed to be a 4-4 tie leaving the appellate decision intact.
It’s serious coo-coo bananas thinking, and I haven’t read his argument because I have better ways to waste my life. But I bet it’s something like tjat.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Anoniminous: @dmsilev: self-described Paul supporter Dave Weigel on that tweet:
it’s all nonsense of course, but as long as we’re just blogging, I could imagine an intense Pence write-in campaign (with Trump focusing all his wrath on the traitor) securing FL, NC and OH for Clinton, and maybe giving her Georgia (I have no more math for that than Ruffini (a long time “operative”, I think a Bushie)
Fair Economist
@Cermet:
Surprisingly, that’s not true anymore due to demographic and cultural shifts. Georgia, South Carolina, and Mississippi (really!) are close enough that a big thing like this could give the election to Hillary. Roughly speaking, these are states, with large Democratic-voting African-American populations, that vote Republican because whites vote 80%+ for Republicans. They have overwhelmingly Republican Congressional delegations (as opposed to 60-40) only because of gerrymandering. If something breaks that up some, or even reduces white conservative turnout, Democrats can win statewide contests.
dmsilev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I took a look at Ruffini’s twitter feed, and the idea appears to be the (a) First the GOP collectively agrees that votes for Trump will count as votes for Pence, (b) Trumpence wins a majority of the electoral votes. (c) Enough electors cast their College votes for Pence to throw the election to the House. (d) President Pence.
As a political plan, it makes the Underwear Gnome’s business plan look well-thought-out.
amk
kasich must be the happiest man in murka right now.
Gravenstone
@Hunter Gathers:
nonynony
If we’re talking about Utah, let’s not forget the power of the Egg McMuffin independent run here. He’s actually on the ballot in Utah and could be a safe harbor for Republicans outraged by Trump.
And that means there’s the potential for Trump to come in FOURTH in Utah. Behind Clinton, Johnson, and Egg and cheese Biscuit. I think such an outcome ,ight overload my schadenfreude receptors…
eric
how Churchillian of Trump.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Fair Economist: do you know anything about Missouri? Dam Gov, one Dem Senator, IIRC Obama lost by a hair in ’08.. I know Blunt has a solid lead, but he seems, as of this morning, to be sticking to Trump.
sloan
@srv:98%? Ha ha ha ha ha!
That Dilbert cartoonist posing as a political persuasion expert and the wingnuts who believe him has to be one of the funniest parts of this election. Great comic relief.
hueyplong
These people seem to think that, by splintering, the GOP will carry many more states instead of many fewer. Please, please don’t show them anything about the 1912 election. Or the 1860 election.
This is one of the few times we can consider ourselves kind of lucky that the modern GOP has decided to embrace folk science and folk math.
Anoniminous
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
lmao
MattF
@Fair Economist: Note that effective Republican gerrymandering assumes substantial white turnout to cancel all those bad AA votes. If whites don’t turn out, the districts will flip.
Gravenstone
Well, that was an interesting experiment in formatting …
muddy
In this pic of Trump with his family, all the women are guarding their pussies.
MattF
@sloan: Presumably, the 98% probability estimate was extracted from a nearby orifice.
bemused
@dmsilev:
That is probably good news. He’s barely tweeting and can’t let off steam in front of supporters so he should have built up a mighty, raging grudge fit by tomorrow night.
PPCLI
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I would like to see an ad with a woman saying something like “When I had a miscarriage, it was a dark and painful moment in my life. My husband and I, with the support of our family and friends, grieved for a long time. Mike Pence passed a law in Indiana that would have put the government into our lives, ordering us to grieve in precisely the way Mike Pence sees fit, and in no other way. Kelly Ayotte wants him to be president, to ensure that the government can intrude into the most painful moments of couples like us across the country.”
Some fine tuning needed, but that’s the gist.
Fair Economist
@Soylent Green:
That’s not a wash, that’s great. Hillary doesn’t need to win Utah, she needs Doug Owens to beat Mia Love in the 4th Congressional district. And the more Republicans stay home, the better Owens’ chances.
Tokyokie
I lived in Utah for a couple of years, and yes, the people are very nice, but many will discriminate against “Gentiles” in subtle ways, which isn’t so nice. (The obligation for adult believers to always wear temple garments leaves distinctive underwear lines that allow people to determine who’s LDS or not LDS at a glance.) However, they will dutifully follow the commands of church elders, and, led by Mitt Romney, those commands are becoming clearer. And though a lot of them will vote third party, the concentration of non-LDS and jack Mormons in Salt Lake City may be enough to give Clinton a plurality in the state’s presidential tally.
RaflW
@Hunter Gathers: With a bunker buster. Or a nuke.
Fun times ahead, srv. Really great fun. Tremendous.
Gravenstone
@The Dangerman: Republicans seem to be making a habit of “disappearing” their VP candidates. Recall where Ryan was basically limited to private fundraisers following his VP debate in 2012. Only in his case it was done to protect the party, this time it’s being done to protect Pence’s phantom 2020 prospects.
Amir Khalid
Julian Assange’s excerpts from speeches Hillary gave to Wall Street turned out to be a less-than-nothingburger. If he wants to sink Hillary with some bombshell revelation, he’d better get a move on, while she still has an opponent to lose to.
muddy
@Tokyokie: One of my doctors told me that when he was doing his residency in SLC, people assumed he was a Mormon because he, his wife and 5 kids were blond. They’d instantly ask him what temple he went to, so he’d fuck with them by saying, “Oh no, we’re not Jewish”.
Rand Careaga
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck:
That was also the comment that tipped me over, at last, to the same belief. Scott Adams (for whom I have no use) is also trolling, I think. I don’t doubt that he supports Trump, but that “98%” is pure clickbait.
dmsilev
@Amir Khalid: I doubt Assange has much. If he did, he would have released something in that bizarre press event last week rather than just using it to pimp sales of a Wikileaks book.
Wapiti
@amk: I don’t care for his views, but Kasich seems to try to follow his religion.
SgrAstar
@Elizabelle: I have lived in Utah for quite a few years. My perspective on Mormons: polite, “nice”, insular, unwaveringly conservative. The abortion issue is absolutely dominant- there is no way Utah will vote blue. Our electeds at every level are terrible and that’s not gonna change without an unimaginable, by me, upheaval. Could The latest revelations avout Trump be that upheaval? Unlikely, although it could lead the locals to refrain from voting for prez. Hate to be so negative, but Utah politics really do sap your will to live.
MattF
@Amir Khalid: Assange is turning out to be just another grifter. He’s a foreigner, it’s true, so he comes by the true grift at second hand– but he can be awarded honorary US citizenship and then it’ll all be good and legal.
BR
I still think there’s a chance that the following will happen:
1) Trump delivers a combative / crazed performance tomorrow, attacks Clinton with everything.
2) GOP diehards hunker down / rally around him.
3) Roger Stone / Steve Bannon try to gin up a few Clinton non-controversies. MSM covers as both sides.
4) Soft Clinton support / third party voters stay home because they figure Clinton will win.
5) Election day result is close to Obama 2012.
Steve in the ATL
@scott:
The mormons I know are exceedingly polite but exceedingly racist. They fit right in with the country club republican crowd.
Rand Careaga
@hueyplong:
It’s been looking a little more like folk meth for a while now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think that’s always been the most likely scenario, especially if soft Trumpers drift to Johnson or McMullen.
I just another assertion that Wisconsin is soft for Clinton, from Greg Sargent
hard for me to believe she’s stronger in CO and MI than WI.
BR
@Steve in the ATL:
The church did have racist policies until a generation ago…
RaflW
Oh, and this new gem from Dr. Ben Carson, fine Christian man:
“It’s no different from what you hear in rap music.”
For thirty miserable years we’ve heard people like Bill Bennett moaning on and on about moral relativism from *liberals*. It was all a con job. All of it.
laura
Just my humble opinion here but what else is Mormonism other than a “religious” excuse or cover for institionalized pu$$y fever?
Mary
@dmsilev: A write-in campaign would keep people from staying home, and thus would help down ballot Republicans.
WereBear
@BR: Mormons are part of the Religious Right.
trollhattan
@Amir Khalid:
Adams has been smoking the Libertarian pole for a long while.
amk
@BR:
and 332 EV is terrible how?
eric
GOP defense: we should be talking about [insert] instead of what someone said in private 11 years ago. they are gonna keep him because the supports would burn them to the ground. You broke it, you bought it.
Hunter Gathers
@RaflW:
A giant tic-tac embossed with gold, diamonds, with a trigger mechanism made from only the classiest rare earth metals. If anyone is a master at bunker busting, it would be Rapey Donnie. He makes it sound so simple, with the grabbing and what not. And he must have a lot of experience with it. Just ask Ivana.
trollhattan
@WereBear:
True. Ironic, given the rest of the RRs don’t consider them Christians.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
I was worried for a minute that trump would drop out.
But he’s not gonna drop out. Not with bannon, hannity, and stone in The Bunker telling the fuehrer this is just a speed bump.
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
Cartoon ink?
Fair Economist
@MattF:
As a rule, the Republican gerrymandering is very extreme and it takes much more to flip Congressional districts than it does to flip the state. For example. Georgia is +8 R. There is one district at +9R, but the next district is +14, meaning Hillary needs to win by 10% more to flip it. South Carolina, to be fair, does have two districts flippable in theory in this situation, but we have weak contestants in both (a professor and an aide to Biden, neither with electoral experience).
I have to say in general that Democratic recruitment has been very weak for these wave-flippable districts. I don’t know the solution, because it’s a big ask for a successful politician to run in a contest they can only win with a wave out of their control, but it’s a problem.
Tokyokie
@muddy: While I was there, Robyn Blumner assumed leadership of the state’s ACLU affiliate. I always figured the ACLU gave her the job heading the Florida affiliate as a reward for putting up with being called a Gentile and associated weirdness during her stay in Utah.
Corner Stone
HOLY FUCK!
Pence just arrived at Trump Tower in the Monster School Bus, dragged Trump out of the place and threw him so far under the bus not even his hair piece is visible.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch: I wonder what Rudi and Christie are telling him. I suspect Rudi’s all in, and Christie’s torn between making a bold and moral statement that in his script bring him back to the Morning Joe center stage, and knowing he’s fucked and all that would get him is a plea bargain on the bridge and a very carefully worded partnership agreement with a second-tier Manhattan law firm.
MazeDancer
@Corner Stone:
Hewitt mentioning how bad the Trump oppo material will be in next few weeks continued to support the feeling that the only way he stays on MSNBC is because he has some seriously incriminating material on high ranking executives.
Hugh is so repulsive most of the MSNBC audience mutes and fast-forwards at the sight of him. He adds nothing of value. There are some interesting GOP commentators that could be giving “the other side”. He is not one of them.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Corner Stone: please to explain
ETA: you got me to turn on MSNBC and it’s just one of those commercial for people IBS
hueyplong
So far, it seems like fighting-for-their-lives purple state candidates and long time Cruz supporters are the only ones serious about abandoning Trump. And that’s before we start to hear about the flying monkeys threatening anyone who wavers.
So we still have Trump to kick around. Once all of America has this Access Hollywood thing memorized, it will be time to drop the next bomb.
Tokyokie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: MI has more blacks, CO has more Hispanics than WI.
lamh36
@srv: I call bullshit on this…I love seeing men talk about this. This tape is going go over the heads of the men like this Adams guy..but straight to the heart of the white women that Trump needed to makes ground on.
Those women, already know how they feel about Bill C and yet they STILL weren’t gravitating to Trump.and this certainly won’t be going to Donald Trump cause of this.
The men are the deciding factor in this election. White women in the middle and minority voter turnout are. Minority voters already ain’t feeling Trump…do we really think the a majority of the white women in the middle will…compared to Romney who they actually liked?
dmsilev
@Mary: That’s a good point.
Still, in this scenario I can’t imagine Trump going quietly, and the death throes of his campaign would be pretty violent (and that’s possibly not a metaphor).
Soylent Green
@laura: Are you talking about the polygamist sect you saw on HBO, or about the 99+ percent of LDS who have no connection to that group?
MattF
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, Rudy’s delusional and Christie’s single undying love object is Christie. I’m guessing that Trump, though despicable, knows better than to put much faith in advice from either of them.
scottinnj
Scott Garret (Tea Party – NJ 5) has come out with a statement saying that Mike Pence would be the best nominee for the GOP. Garrett is in the fight of his life in NJ-5, he would be a great riddance in the new Congress.
I’m happy to see this block of concrete thrown around Trump, but one thing not getting much coverage – yet – is that NBC had this story and sat on it, my guess is some disgruntled NBC staffer is the leak to the Washington Post. I was never happy when they brought back Brian Williams but this shows they are a shill organization. Hope Rachel rips NBC a new on this when she is back.
Fair Economist
@dmsilev:
“I have nothing interesting to say, so buy my book!”
Compelling advertising!
BR
@amk:
GOP house won’t flip with an Obama 2012 level win. Senate probably flips, but would be 51-49 at best.
RaflW
Holy crap this twitter photo meme is so damn wrong. So deliciously, satanically, hilariously wrong. It’s worth your 10 seconds to click.
Corner Stone
@muddy: Even two rows deep! Protecting their cooters from Rapey Donald!
kindness
What’s Liz Cheney polling at in Wyoming? I figure she’ll win. She’s her Dad’s devil spawn and it galls me people would vote for that, even Republicans. Remember when Republicans weren’t nuts? OK, some have always been nuts. When I was a kid the Republicans from the Northeast were socially liberal but fiscally cheap. Thems my rose colored glasses for the day.
Prescott Cactus
AZ ballots go out to voters who vote by mail early next week. Great timing !
RaflW
@BR: 51-49 gets us SCOTUS. I’ll take it.
eta: Any chance Snowe quits the Grand Old Party? I mean, this cannot possibly be the team she actually aligns with. I know she’s rather mealy-mouthed, but really. The Grand Old P***y party?
Fair Economist
@scottinnj:
Don’t forget to wish for a pony while you’re at it. Rachel works for MS**NBC** and she’s smart enough not to want to get Donahue’d.
NorthLeft12
@srv: Wow, a completely delusional opinion from noted asshole Scott Adams. Thanks for sharing srv.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: gotta love Hillz. This is the exact way she took out racist giuliani in 2000. (photo)
WereBear
@trollhattan: I am astonished at how political power has melded together all kinds of sworn enemies, like Baptists and Opus Dei and fervent Mormons, but strange bedfellows and all that.
Steve in the ATL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This type of post is why I pay full praise for Balloon Juice.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: /Steve Rogers voice: “I got that reference!”
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Pence released this statement and it was read live on air.
Villago Delenda Est
@NorthLeft12: srv and Scott Adams are, after all, birds of a feather.
amk
@BR: let’s not count our chickens too early. senate and scotus are good wins for now.
lamh36
Statement from Mike Pence…
“Pray for Trump”
What?
@ElizLanders
BREAKING: statement from @mike_pence nearly 21 hours after Trump tape audio leaked:
lamh36
Corner Stone
@scottinnj:
Rachel is bought and paid for. I can’t really knock her for it. A thespian having her own full hour in prime time is a pretty BFD, all things.
Soylent Green
Trump is unperturbed by this development. He’s getting great ratings!
Villago Delenda Est
@RaflW: The “Grope Our Pussy” party?
RaflW
@kindness: Let’s look back to Arne Carlson. He was the Republican governor of Minnesota. The party he led here is unrecognizable now, and he quit it some time ago. A living former governor says buh-bye to his party. Not a common everyday thing.
Carlson did a great ad in the closing days of the campaign on photo ID a couple years back, too. It was credited with helping swing MN to No on photo ID. I hear he’s now going to campaign for Angie Craig, the lesbian running for US Congress in the south Twin Cities metro.
dmsilev
@lamh36: Worse, it was “we pray for his family”, which is the sort of thing you say about someone in the late stages of terminal cancer or similar.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@kindness: in this century, we still had Jim Jeffords, John Chaffee, Amo Houghton, Bill Roth? when did he snuff it. Olympia Snowe was never crazy, just an abject coward and apparently there’s a lot of spite hidden under that flinty-Yankee-matron affect. Collins’ stupidity is exceeded only by ambition
amk
now jeff flake has joined why won’t you quit drumbeat.
Corner Stone
@MazeDancer:
I usually click away when he appears and may not switch back for some time. I gave him about two weeks of appearances and he was uniformly, repeatedly, partisan hack BS. I hate that MSNBC ever airs his garbage and this statement he gave to Joy was so disgusting that I want to tell Joy to never have HH on her air ever again. And that I will click away from her show every time I see him.
lamh36
laura
@Soylent Green: I’m talking about the foundation of LDS and Ole Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, sealed marriages for any gal an LDS feller would like to engage in despite any consent by the the women. That’s what I’m talking about. I sense you find my own personal opinion offensive. If you were offended, tough. I don’t apologize and I don’t back down when it comes to institutional power against women.
lamh36
amk
Corner Stone
People on MSNBC keep saying that Trump’s only hope to remain viable is to absolutely crush it at the town hall tomorrow.
Have these people ever seen Donald Trump speak or answer questions? There is zero chance, ZERO, that he is going to handle Sunday night well. Nothing he says or does tomorrow is unthinkable. The only impossible outcome is Trump having an excellent outcome.
Shell
Bt if he goes even further off the rails, why would they rally round then? Some kind of reasoned/controlled performance is the only hope they have left to keep supporting him in any sane way.
Soylent Green
@Corner Stone: Joy has no choice. They have the same boss.
Ruckus
@lamh36:
One could pray for all kinds of things. Trump and Pence to struck by lighting comes to mind. Repeatedly.
eric
@amk: this will lead all the trump people to vote against him in november…………..
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Fair Economist: Yeah, I like Rachel but she’s a company woman. I can see deciding Olbermann wasn’t worth defending, and Ed Schultz was always mercurial and has proven himself worse than a crank, but Maddow’s total silence, not even a carefully worded tweet that I saw, when they shafted Melissa Harris Perry bothered me.
as for a possible NBC leak, Trump is incredibly litigious, and if a phony billionaire has enough to make a network’s legal bills costly, and there’s nobody like K. Graham at NBC. You look at the total silence around Ivana’s accusations, and you gotta figure it’s part squeamishness, part fear of lawsuits, or enraged Trumpsters bringing suspicious backpacks to 30 Rock.
Corner Stone
@lamh36: Oh God. Oh God. Oh God.
Please, please, please.
Suzanne
Mormons hate Trump. It’s not just the “niceness”. They don’t like the multiple marriages, the grossness surrounding his sex life, and just New York Values in general. All my LDS friends are trying to get excited for Johnson or Evan McMullin.
But…… THIS!!! (Reposted from downstairs):
Something I am just IN LOVE WITH: Ted Cruz still hasn’t rescinded his endorsement of Trump.
What a complete sack of shit. Craven, ratfaced shit-swizzling LOO-HOO-HOO-ZER.
bemused
@RaflW:
They don’t make Republicans like Carlson anymore. Glad he’s still around fighting the good fight. Former Gov Elmer L. Anderson was a good egg too. He endorsed Kerry in 2004 and passed away Nov 15 of that year.
muddy
@Corner Stone: Hillary should wear a sporran for the debate.
bupalos
I’m in northeast ohio very near (like just up the road from my house) a major Mormon site that is having a big harvest festival today, jam packed with the over-perfected families common to that clan. I’m a little ashamed to admit that I seriously considered printing up a “trump/pence = grab ’em by the pu&&y” banner and staking it up by the lot exit.
Then I thought, Jebus, this is what having a clown like this around does to you. As I’ve said all along, we’re going to easily win this election and would have whether or not the Orange Epithet ran into this kind of thing or not, but the very fact of his existence kind of just makes everyone worse.
eric
Putin: In Russia, pussy grab you.
Ruckus
@Shell:
There never has been nor will there ever be a sane way to support Trump. No matter what Trump does Sunday night.
Corner Stone
@Soylent Green: She doesn’t have to call him “my friend” or “my very good friend” in the intro each time. She can treat him like the threat to truth and reality that he is.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
Holy Shit: even his racist propaganda organ Der Stürmer has bailed (photo) Previously, they’ve stuck with him through everything.
WereBear
@lamh36: Oh boy. If they want to wrestle in that Jell-O pit, we’ll be glad to do so.
Felonius Monk
@Villago Delenda Est:
Shame on you. You have insulted Walking Sacks of Pigshit. Besides, I’m convinced this is just a PR gimmick to make sure his own campaign doesn’t wind in the toilet. I believe in the privacy of the voting booth, Chaffetz will pull the lever for Trump. So, I think he is far lower than Sacks of Pigshit.
Corner Stone
Jeebus, where is Kurt Eichenwald when you need him on MSNBC?
Soylent Green
@laura:You’re absolutely right about the LDS foundations, which are despicable with respect to women. But do Mormons follow those practices or hold those views today? Should we hold them to account for 150 years ago?
dmsilev
@lamh36: [adds popcorn to shopping list]
Shell
And her reply “Trump can’t even keep straight who’s actually running for President!”
Villago Delenda Est
Prediction: Donald so loses it that he calls Hillary one of those vulgar attack words used on women. He might go as far as the C-word.
Villago Delenda Est
@Soylent Green: Yes. Because the entire “religion” is built on a lie by a guy who wanted to have multiple wives. The only reason they abandoned polygamy is that it was a prerequisite to statehood.
trollhattan
@Soylent Green:
We should find a woman LDS priest and ask her.
BethanyAnne
Anyone know the LD50 on schadenfreude? Asking for a friend.
muddy
@Villago Delenda Est: He’d probably think he was really killing it by saying, “I wouldn’t even want to grab your pussy, Hillary, don’t worry!” And then looking around for congratulation and hurhurs.
Calouste
@lamh36: I’m fairly confident that Clinton has names ready to go, and videos taped, of women who that whiny loser has assaulted in recent years. Just like she had Alicia Marchado ready, and she had that architect that was ripped off ready, although he wasn’t used in the end.
trollhattan
@BethanyAnne:
All of it, Katie, although you shouldn’t be doubling up with Jager shots at this time.
Iowa Old Lady
@Prescott Cactus: I voted over a week ago. It’s too late to change horses now.
Soylent Green
@Corner Stone: Point taken. That’s just weird. It’s the same as Rachel cozying up to Pat Buchanan.
Dork
TPM has article up on how most (all?) the Family Values voters are undeterred by the increasingly mostest unfamilially valued candidate of all time. Talk about pieces of shit and hypocritical fucks…incredible that the Faux Jesusers are the few who are defending this clown
lamh36
@keithbcollins
NBC doesn’t plan to reprimand Billy Bush over Trump recording… @WSJ
Welp. those LIVE shots at the Today show with the big picture window is sure to be fun!
trollhattan
@Calouste:
Come Nov 9th the Clinton campaign will be in the same boat the US was after VJ Day, with so much unused ammo they’ll end up dumping it into the ocean. Cosby got nothing compared to what Donny has coming.
trollhattan
@lamh36:
Profiles in courage from our media betters.
Suzanne
@Soylent Green: I grew up in Mesa, AZ, which is the second-largest LDS community in the world, and is also the home of Senator Flake. I can tell you hair-curling stories about the LDS church covering up sex abuse in the Church, specifically abuse of friends and acquaintances. They still haven’t given up all of the polygamous past—many LDS couples who divorce don’t break the seal, and the men can be sealed to multiple women, though of course not the inverse. The social pressure on women in that Church is still staggering.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
This the point in the movie where Hillz unleashed the drones. (clip)
Redshift
Our canvassing staging location was hopping today, on a rainy Saturday. I’m feeling pretty good about everything up and down the ballot.
amk
now thune joins the chorus.
Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck
@WereBear:
It’s not power, exactly. It’s the flipside of that, desperation. Two generations ago, and for hundreds of years, even atheists had to pretend they cared about God. Religion was ubiquitous in Western society, an assumed element of everything even when it didn’t dominate. Now, you get funny looks when you say God told you to do something. Back then they could afford to hate each other. Now everybody who thinks religion should define America has to band together, because their children are walking away from their lifestyle one by one…
They even made common cause with Jews, but alas it looks like Muslims are just too brown.
raven
@Suzanne: My Nazi SIL lives there, she’s not Mormon but she’s a piece of work.
WereBear
I knew a non-LDS woman whose husband’s work kept her there for a few years. She thought she was handling it okay at the time; it was only afterwards that she realized how stressful and paranoid it had made her, and she had a kind of PTSD reaction when they moved away.
amk
WereBear
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck: You are right. The stats on people leaving religion in the US is staggering.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@srv: Everyone is wrong SRV, you aren’t a Troll, you’re f*cking idiot if you don’t see why Trump talking makes him unacceptable for president. Perhaps some stoneage culture in say PNG would be more to your calling if you are that obsessed with tribalism?
Then again, I take that back, any stone age clan would reject and likely murder any cheif who was publicly forcing himself on the women in clan. Just think, what if Trump decides he wants your wife SRV? Won’t it be great to be a pimp for the alpha male?
laura
@Suzanne: the social pressure on every woman in any religion (with few exceptions ie shakers, quakers, UU) is staggering.
The woman is always to blame since Eve.
Power and subjegation. No right to agency, bodily autonomy, equal pay, compensation for mothering, access to reproductive care, criminalizing the effects of poverty. . .
Brachiator
I think that Utah allows straight ticket voting.
Trump could get a chunk of votes there just out of voter habit.
Suzanne
@WereBear: Mesa fucked me up, too. Where I live now is not far away in terms of miles, but is culturally very different. I still know members of many of the old LDS families. One of my colleagues is a direct descendant of one of the original twelve apostles of the church. He says “shit” and “fuck” and is not voting for anyone for President this year.
It is really not electorally risky for any of the senators and reps from LDS areas to say that they won’t vote for Trump. The vast majority of the Mormons I know hate the guy.
? Martin
@lamh36: Too late for Pence. He’s done. The narrative after this election will be how poor must conservatives’ judgement be to sign onto this campaign, and remain with it, in the face of so much evidence, for so long. They’re all trapped. If they bail, they’re effectively admitting that the anti-muslim, anti-latino, sexist, authoritarian shit was all cool with them, but the embarrassment of seeing it on video became too much. That’s indefensible. There’s no explanation for that which will be accepted by most people.
This is why Josh’s ‘dignity wraith’ is such a good description. Once you sign on, he slowly bleeds you out of your moral standing to a point where you’re stuck either confessing to supporting these amoral positions or sticking out to the end, hoping a win will give you popular cover.
JosieJ (not Josie)
@MomSense:
I have a hunch Jeb is not much liked inside his immediate family.
Oh, and look, Pence has figured out how to split the pubic hair and has crawled out from the rock he was hiding under.
Suzanne
@laura: A good friend of mine from childhood recently publicly admitted that she has been in psychiatric hospitals multiple times due to suicidal depression because she is stuck at home with her kids.
But get a job? Absolutely not an option. To send the children to preschool is utter failure and suicide and misery are preferable.
sigaba
John Thune calls for Trump to drop out. That’s one step below McConnell.
bemused
@WereBear:
Talking about PTSD, I know Trump will lose but I can’t really relax until the day after the election and it’s official we are done with Trump. Looking forward to feeling free and light as air.
scottinnj
@Villago Delenda Est: Ha, you win the internet today!
Corner Stone
Does anyone know what the story about the VP Debate was supposed to be about? Or mean anything in some way?
Prescott Cactus
@muddy: Filled with Tic Tacs. Then shake just before Trumpster speaks.
? Martin
Pence stayed in. Well, he’s fucked either way, so why not, I guess. His dignity was never worth much to begin with, so I guess he has nothing to lose.
The Lodger
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You mean a tool with a screw point, grooved shank, and cross handle for boring holes? Sounds like something barb would carry when discussing Jeb.
muddy
@Prescott Cactus: He’d probably think it was just her mike acting up. As they do.
lamh36
Ain’t no loyalty anymore among fellow gropers…smh…
@latimes 4m4 minutes ago
Arnold Schwarzenegger: “I will not vote for the Republican candidate for president”
lamh36
@TexasTribAbby
Another dam is bursting. Staffers have had it with their bosses backing Trump. From a former Hill staffer:
? Martin
Joe Heck got booed in his public renouncement of Trump. This is the real problem the GOP overall has – their base won’t let them out. The GOP is going to start hemorrhaging general election voters. If these guys back Trump, they’ll lose the general. If they don’t, they’ll probably be primaried out by the remaining distilled basket of deplorables.
No matter what they do they’re screwed, and no matter what they do the party will get worse. The only way to end this is to get rid of the voters, and the only way to do that is to build a new party.
Hal
I don’t know if anyone has linked to this yet, but
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/heres-what-happens-if-donald-trump-drops-out-of-presidential-race/
West of the Rockies (been a while)
It makes me a little sad to think of all the trees that died so that 15 or so political autobiographies could be produced at the start of this election cycle in the hopes of getting Florina, Jindall, Santorum, et al, elected. How many talented writers received rejection notices because some lame publisher decided to sink backing into these piggy-shit books filled with pretend patriotic fervor and such?
Shell
Yeah, heard one defending his 2005 comments cause he didn’t have the spiritual guidance that he’s received since then. *Snort*
Corner Stone
@lamh36: I am sure it was not lost on you the three things the former hill staffer did not mention as being “proven right” about were Birtherism, racial discrimination in housing, and Central Park Five.
I would have given her the housing as it was possibly obscure to a large, younger audience. But the other two, especially birtherism? C’mon.
scav
@lamh36: Staffers — well, leaks need origins and I’d imagine any vetting done by the GOP establishment wasn’t done by the elected officials themselves working the google.
japa21
@amk: My wife told me last night that she can never have another Tic Tac again. Will be interesting to see how their sales go.
Cckids
@? Martin:
How anyone can say that it wasn’t crystal clear that THIS IS WHAT TRUMP IS is beyond me. Of course there’s worse out there.
And as for replacing him with Pence; I give you the wisdom of Wil Wheaton:
“Make no mistake ladies, Trump may be the face of your rapist, but Pence is every judge who made sure he got away with it”.
Amen.
Eta: I see that was something Wheaton re-tweeted. My bad.
Amir Khalid
@lamh36:
Incidentally, it was Governor Schwarzenegger who first appointed Gonzalo Curiel as a judge.
lamh36
@Corner Stone: Right…I know the “children are the future” but damn if some of these younger folks don’t just make me roll my eyes..
I mean I was young once…but I swear i was never as naive and yet cynical as some of the young folk seem to be this cycle…smh
scav
@Shell: Saint Giuliani spelled it out for you. You go, you eat the cracker, it’s all good. The Party shall absolve you of all sins, Blessed be the name of the Party
Prescott Cactus
@muddy:
@japa21:
I’m going out and picking up a couple of containers of tick tac. A light shake every time I see some asshat mention his name or wear a Trump shirt.
I’ll probably get shot. . .
aangus
@lamh36: Ha, ha, ha! Kettle criticizes pot!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Isn’t that whole “Reap the whirlwind” thing from the Bible?
Couldn’t happen to a fraudier fraud that Sweet Paulie Blue Eyes
Elizabelle
@lamh36: I hope NBC’s “brand” is in the toilet, along with Trump, after this plays out. And that includes MSNBC, which is NBC corporate with a libtard interface for a few hours each day.
I say this as someone who used to like NBC News. A lot. But it’s turned crank ass maybe 10 years ago, maybe more. Television for defense contractors (as is CBS).
Corner Stone
Chuckles Todd has a strain of white hairs in his chin beard and it trails straight down from his lip to his chin. Makes him look like he is drooling milk out of his mouth.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I am so ticked right now. I need to run some errands but I feel like my schaden has trapped me here until I see Paul Ryan takes the stage in WI. I am juiced to see the crowd rip him a new one ala Old Time Rome.
Shell
@Prescott Cactus: With all this nonstop coverage, how’d I miss the Tic-Tac story? Ewwwwwwww.
lamh36
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…..(deep breath)….AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Whoa, that would be wonderful.
You can see the WaPost and other outlets trying to keep up the pretense that Paul Ryan is the gentle wonk with principles and numeracy. They all fluff him. (This greatly peeves Professor Krugman.)
Would be great to see the Republican basest of base turn on GOP politicians. They deserve it. They enabled it. Fox-Limbaugh world, at its nastiest and least manageable.
ETA: Myself, I would pay premium for a subscription to BoehnerCam. He has got to be laughing so hard, he is crying again.
Corner Stone
Whoever let Trump air that “apology” video should be shot for political malpractice.
lamh36
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…..(deep breath)….AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Corner Stone: I applaud your restraint in saying “milk”
Corner Stone
@Elizabelle:
That video he cut with PBO? I bet Boehner is having muscle relaxers mixed into his glass of Cab because he’s afraid of stroking out from laughing so hard, non-stop.
Bailey
@lamh36:
Speaking as someone with extensive experience in production, I doubt very much it was Billy Bush that brought this to the attention of anyone. Far more likely it was production crew that knew exactly where and when the files were. The people behind the camera, the people slogging through footage to edit a cohesive featurette.
This really isn’t much different than the 47% tape in that regard — everyone knew what the candidate was really like, but it was behind the scenes, no-power type players that surfaced the material.
Elizabelle
Also: the scandal to me is that it’s a sex (language) scandal that has brought the hurricane to Trump.
Why wasn’t it bad enough, all the other stuff that he is, and is not? Conservative American electorate and political establishment has a LOT to answer for.
NY Times banner right now:
And it’s for bragging about groping and using vulgarity for female genitalia.
Why is this the hill to die on? Isn’t it incredible that a large number of Americans — including elected officials — were good with Trump having the launch codes, before the kitty cat word came out on tape?
trollhattan
@Corner Stone:
Must allow for the possibility it was the most empathetic of twenty takes.
? Martin
Reports that crowd is upset with Ryan for disinviting Trump. This is what 25 years of listening to Rush Limbaugh does to a party. Trump owns the GOP now. They can’t disavow him because they’re disavowing their base.
lamh36
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Still laughing….
Elizabelle
@Corner Stone: What video with PBO? Do tell.
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle: This hit home, at last, so that it is now impossible to ignore Trump’s sociopathy. It’s the old wife, daughter thing. He’d go after yours if he could. Suddenly people are shocked into recognizance of what Trump is.
It’s one thing to slam brown skinned people. It’s quite another to say “where are the white women at?”
divF
@scav:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Elizabelle: amen, he made his bones as a political force with straight up racism
also, too
I would, forever and always, start with birtherism, and remind everybody that yesterday he said five young black men proven innocent should’ve been executed anyway.
trollhattan
@Bailey:
Good take. Imagine how much more is rattling in various electronic sock drawers.
lamh36
@Corner Stone:
Will this GIF do?
PBO, BIden, Boehner
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Hey come on! This here is a family blog! Not some kind of fucking perv orgy fest like a Trump Tour!
Elizabelle
@amk: I’ve missed it. What’s up with Tic Tac?
Have been stepping away from the laptop this weekend, but clearly missing some green balloons stuff.
Corner Stone
@lamh36: Son of a Barkeep!
Corner Stone
@Elizabelle: Obama Retirement Video
scav
@divF: Two, Four, Six, Eight, Time to Grope the Electorate.
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle: He starts the conversation with Billy Bush by asking for a tic tac, because he says he’s going to kiss that woman.
lamh36
Like i said early, the consensus seems to be withdraw support and ask for Pence to take over top of the ticket.
I think this is a collective message being pushed by RNC behind the scenes…too many saying exact same thing.
Also explains that Pence statement about being disgusted by Trump’s words but praying for him and his family and that Trump shows who he “can be” at the debate tomorrow.
Statement from Ann Wagner – trump withdraw push up Pence
PPCLI
@Corner Stone: At least they edited out the part at the end where he plugged his hotel in DC and Trump steaks.
Gravenstone
@Elizabelle: As someone noted in one of the threads last night (iirc), they were perfectly fine with Trump hating on Blacks and Latinos and other minorities. But as soon as he turned his sights on the white wimmens? Forget about it!
Baud
Still 30 days to election day.
Elizabelle
@Corner Stone: Thank you. Will check it out.
Obama retirement. Sad thought. May he go on to even greater things. In this world!
Redshift
One thing that amazes me is how many of these GOP “denunciations” of Trump (as well as Trump’s “apology”) are just about what he said. Is there anyone who doesn’t think it’s going to come out that he really did these things? They’ll have to denounce him againwhen that happens.
They just seem to be really bad at strategy and damage control.
? Martin
@Elizabelle: I think this one.
Not Obama’s funniest stuff, but I definitely get the feeling that he and Boehner actually like each other.
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est: Ah.
I thought it might have been along the lines of Monica Lewinsky’s plug for wintergreen Altoids. If that was her mint of choice …
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dmsilev:
Downfall 2016
lamh36
@lamh36:
Another… withdraw Trump support, elevate Pence…
@ElectRodney
My statement on Donald Trump and the presidential election —>
? Martin
@Gravenstone:
Actually, they seem to only be offended because they have a wife and daughter. If you’re a single male, then Trump is still good – no harm done. This attitude that you only need to be considerate to women once you get married is why colleges have so much trouble with sexual assault.
I sense we’re at least peeking around a corner thanks to this incident. I think it will take Clintons words to pull us around it more fully.
Gelfling 545
@shomi: Tell me, does it give you a little thrill & make yor feel naughty to abreviate the blog name in that ridiculous way? You realize it makes others think you’re 12, don’t you?
WereBear
The key to their appeal is to not have to be good at anything; or indeed, even competent.
Their business policies allow for graft, tax evasion, and outright theft, while dodging any consequences. Their social policies are about rounding up victims and blocking their ability to protest. Their governmental ethos is the less, the better.
Their whole ethos is about being entitled asswipes and getting away with it. That is what their base loves, too: that is what they aspire to.
That is why I have been saying that when the end finally does come, it will come swiftly.
lamh36
Uncle Cosmo
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Zombie Warren Harding!
Bailey
@trollhattan:
Plenty.
Also, the idea that this was an unknown “hot mic” is an absurd one. Both Trump and Bush obviously knew they were wearing mic packs. They had already done an interview on the bus. When you’re wearing a mic pack, you can assume that it is on and is recording. They just didn’t have a reason to care about whatever appeared on this footage because it was going to be edited out.
Corner Stone
@PPCLI: I had a bet going that he would mention one of his hotels or properties.
Shell
I laugh every time today the news reports that Trump is sequestered in Trump Towers. So Sauron has retreated to Barad-dûr?
Elizabelle
@WereBear:
I wish it would come swiftly. But the GOP has NBC and mainstream news propping it up, along with cable and the rightwing wurlitzer. It’s zombification.
hueyplong
@Bailey: “They just didn’t have a reason to care about whatever appeared on this footage because it was going to be edited out.”
This means they were constantly riffing for borderline outrageous (entertaining) footage. This means there are innumerable examples.
This might mean there is a much worse one, perhaps related to someone (as victim/target/object) the public has heard of and likes, or has since died (for extra outrage).
lamh36
@costareports
On phone w/ person close to Trump. Says there is talk of a Pence-Carson ticket if Trump drops out. But person doesn’t expect Trump to quit.
ahahahahahahahaha….(snicker)ahahahahahahah
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Okay, who is it that is “close to Trump” and dumb enough to think this could work. (All of’em, Katie!)
Actually I suspect it’s a man whose last name rhymes with “Rump”
ETA: @lamh36: I think we’re reading the same twitters
sigaba
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: “How do I win Florida with Photoshops of FUCKING FROGS!”
LOL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I wanna know who’s bright idea it was to put Carson in there.
PPCLI
As the talk by people like Ayotte for Mike Pence heats up, everyone should remember that Pence is not only in favor of punishing women who have abortions, he has already tried to do it in Indiana, throwing a woman in jail for 20 years for “feticide”.
scav
@Bailey: Editing plus all those non-disclosure agreements that anyone within voice- or arms-lengh of Trump has to sign.
Bailey
@hueyplong:
Undoubtedly.
And I seriously doubt this is all coming out because of any particular brilliance on the part of the Clinton campaign. Trump doesn’t have a friend in the world, a long history of shafting anyone who worked with or near him, and a reputation as a vile pig. There are probably LOTS of production people, without any prompting or inducement, that have gone rifling through their archives. I personally remember everything I’ve ever shot of a famous person. If I thought they were a national disaster and they were running for president, I’d be digging that stuff up too.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PPCLI: the Clinton people oughta slap together a quick video and leak it ASAP
Davis X. Machina
The Great Wheel turns.
28 years ago — Dukakis and Kitty.
Today, Trump and pussy.
Shantih.
lamh36
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: lol..probably!
trollhattan
@lamh36:
How would it even work? Ballots are already printed.
Davis X. Machina
@trollhattan: Doesn’t matter. We elect slates of electors. They do the actual voting. So in December they vote for someone else… The D and R is all that matters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Mr Character, Mr Courage, Universally Admired….
Percysowner
Arnold (the original Gropenator) has just announced that he won’t vote for Trump.
It wont make any difference in California, but when you’ve lost the serial sexual harrasser, you are in big trouble.
Bailey
@scav:
Production work is almost always “work for hire” so even if various camera/sound pros have copies of all their work, they don’t own it. I’m willing to bet that NBC was forced to reveal (and then scooped by WaPost) precisely because some lower-totem folks said “fuck it” I’m putting this out there regardless of any copyright infringement or breach of contract that might come my way.
Bailey
@Davis X. Machina:
That must invite some seriously legal challenges. Given the number of ballots tossed in Florida 2000 because people voted for Gore and then also wrote his name in.
A scenario in which electors just voted for any random Republican despite otherwise clear votes for Trump would be a legal nightmare.
sukabi
@Amir Khalid: not gonna look it up, but is this 98% guy the Dilbert cartoonist? If it is, he’s been huffing too much sharpie.
Mary G
I suspect that Hillary’s got the famous binders full of women who have Trump stories to tell.
Ryan’s going to come out to people who showed up to see Trump and are pissed he was disinvited. One lady said she was going to leave to beat the traffic, but decided to stay and heckle ZEGS.
Amir Khalid
@trollhattan:
And some of those already-printed ballots have already been cast. I have read of scenarios involving an army of party lawyers heading out to all fifty states to file lawsuits — but it seems a case of too many hoops to jump through, and too little time.
Corner Stone
Just had a great convo with my sis:
Me: Welp, this Trump shit has me going bonzo happy
Her: Yeah, but Bill Clinton
Me: Say WTF now?
Her: they same same
Me: Funny. The R’s impeached him for same same
Her:
Me: Yeah. Now get the fuck out
Ceci n'est pas mon nym
@sukabi: Yep. Writing as himself, he’s written some bizarre stuff, especially about women. As others have said, I have found Dilbert really funny in the past. Hard to believe it can be written by such a kook.
But I feel the same about Orson Scott Card, whose work I love almost all of. And he is a WAAAAY-round-the-bend wingnut.
lamh36
Why would Mitt call on Trump to quit? Trump loses Mitt can run AGAIN in 2020…third time’s the charm right?
Mitt Romney says he’s “offended and dismayed” by video, but stops short of calling on Trump to quit
Uncle Cosmo
@MattF: I’m still fond of Dilbert in the same sense that I still enjoy rereading Heinlein. Adams gets the high-functioning-Aspergers tech geek vs imbecile corporate bureaucracy pretty accurately. Including the tech geek’s classic attitude that with 10 minutes of desultory thought he knows more & better about any field of human knowledge than people with advanced degrees who’ve worked for years in the discipline. He respects no one’s expertise but his own. IOW he’s an overschooled (not even “overeducated”) idiot.
Amir Khalid
@sukabi:
Yep, it’s the Dilbert cartoonist.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Corner Stone: Why is the idea of “consensual sex” so difficult for people to grasp?
Corner Stone
@Amir Khalid:
Not a problem. Not a problem at all as long as we still have a compliant majority seated in the SCOTU…
Damn you Dead Scalia!!!
/GOP
lamh36
Villago Delenda Est
@sukabi: That’s the guy.
Corner Stone
HOLY FUCK!!!
Donald Trump that beeping noise you’re hearing is Melania Trump backing up the Monster School Bus Pence loaned her.
Corner Stone
@Uncle Cosmo:
The only thing I ever found funny about Dilbert was when he got tech-pwned by his mom.
sigaba
The RNC has, for the moment, ceased production of campaign mailers and direct mail operations for Trump.
Ceci n'est pas mon nym
@lamh36: Being a dog-oriented person, I couldn’t help noticing that the dog came into the foreground for a second, and probably just scarfed down the baby’s snack.
lamh36
@Corner Stone: Meh…they already comparing her to HRC forgiving BC…but the cognitive dissonance that allow someone on the one hand to attack HRC for Bill Clinton’s shit…but then to say…good for Melania didn’t HRC forgive Bill?
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: i also made the distinction up front that whatever we believed Bill had done there is nothing ever to indicate it was anything but consensual. And that the only serious charge that it was not has been debunked for 30 years. That Trump used his own words to say he forced himself on women because there was nothing they could do about it.
I gisted our conversation but it was very short, brutal and she did not enjoy it. Just commenting that it is so powerful in society that the immediate thought is yeah, but Clinton…
Disgusted by it.
Elizabelle
NY Times website: item about Boy Ryan: Paul Ryan, Reluctant Supporter, Weighs Response to Donald Trump’s Remarks
Picture is great. Ryan looks concerned. Or constipated. However, it’s from Thursday. This is before yesterday’s revelations (and tomorrow’s). Let the mythologizing commence:
Excuse me, Ms. NY Times reporter? You’re noticing civility now?
Ryan is always the consummate politico, though. The NY Times continues:
So, it’s not that you’ve got a nasty ignoramous as the public face of your party. Selected by voters from your very political party. It’s that you’re afraid people see that you’ve got that nasty ignoramous.
Ah, and it’s got a quote from the DC political press corpse’s favorite congresscritter, Charlie Dent (who actually is a good guy):
It’s never young Ryan, the principled’s, fault. He was forced.
The final paragraph:
Talisman. Magical thinking.
hueyplong
During last night’s AHA (angry hostage apology), Trump said Pence would be representing him at today’s Wisconsin thing. Then Pence didn’t do it. Is Trump going to be pissed at Pence, just one more traitor against whom to rail in his newest Downfall scene?
And when the crowd got on Ryan today, will that remind GOP “establishment” types of their fear of the base, thereby putting an end to the Step Aside Scenarios?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Corner Stone: Yeah, more a general statement about Republicans, and for that matter the media, than about your sister.
I went back and forth on sharing this, Dave Wiegel retweeted it, but it does point you to the road they’re headed down
To my knowledge, and I’m a political junkie, the worst thing Clinton has said about any of Bill’s GFs was calling Lewinsky a “narcissistic looney-toon” IIRC, in a private phone call that was later leaked.
Amir Khalid
Auntie Beeb reports Melania’s statement: Donald’s words are “unacceptable and offensive to me,” she says.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Women should not have any agency to consent. Or do anything else, for that matter. It’s patriarchy all the way.
eldorado
@Elizabelle: do you know who got out of this whole clusterf with dignity mostly intact? boehner. only one to see the writing on the wall, apparently.
Gravenstone
@lamh36: Pence/Carson?!?! Talk about doubling, even tripling down on the Jesus fuckery! Women’s rights, well who cares about the little wimmins? They should be getting me a sammich.
Iowa Old Lady
@? Martin: Too true. They think of women only in relation to men–wife, daughter, etc. White men are the norm and everyone else is arranged in relation to them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid: Just the words. The underlying attitude she’s just fine with.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
John Harwood reporting friends of Pence are telling him to jump ship for his own sake!
God that would be hilarious. You think Reek Christie would still take Veep? Or Rudi? Probably Rudi. Or maybe Bats-In-His-Belfry Flynn
Villago Delenda Est
@hueyplong: The base has already made itself clear that Donald is their man regardless. Drumpf was not wrong when he said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose any support. Hecklers have been yelling at GOP pols who have unendorsed Drumpf.
Drumpf accurately reflects the base. They are deplorables, and proud of it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Villago Delenda Est: To be fair, I suspect Melanie Trump had as much to do with that statement as I did.
I have shit to do, but can’t tear myself away from this train wreck. Waiting to see if Ryan gets booed, mostly.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Is there a word for when a big boat capsizing takes down smaller boats around it? Please? Are you there, Jeebus? Odin? Hera?
Barbara
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Jeff Sessions.
Mike G
@RaflW:
So which rap musicians he was considering voting for?
Being a Republican means being very creative at making excuses, if not at anything else.
MattF
@Uncle Cosmo: Yes, but comparing Dilbert with reality is spoiled.
MattF
@Villago Delenda Est: Right. The R base quite specifically rejected all the ‘Republican’ Republicans.
patrick II
@amk:
Since you qualified that as a “man” I will agree with you.
Bailey
Re: Kathleen Willey and Juanita Broaddrick and Paula Jones, since we’re clearly going there….
Are they to be believed? Why or why not? Most Americans can separate the consensual marital infidelities involving Monica Lewinsky and Jennifer Flowers, but is there any “there” there with the others? A strike against would be because (I believe) both women continued to have contact with Bill Clinton after a time when they said he assaulted them. A strike for — neither really had much to gain from their stories and we certainly know from plenty of experience that often women aren’t believed when the man is more powerful.
While I don’t think for a minute any of this reflects on HRC or is her “problem”, I’d be lying if I thought Bill Clinton was vigorously worth defending.
Corner Stone
How far we’ve come. A candidate sighed on stage or another one checked his watch on stage. They were destroyed for it.
Now we have one that says go check out an adult sex tape, or anytime you feel like it just brab em by the p_ssy.
What a time to be alive!
Msb
I don’t think the ballots can be changed at this point. Remember Ashcroft losing a Senate race against a dead guy? The Rs broke it, they bought it.
And while Mormons may value “niceness”, they don’t value women. Ask the woman they recently threw out of the “Church” for advocating women’s equality in it.
Corner Stone
@Bailey: Bill Clinton is not the candidate for President.
Chyron HR
@Bailey:
Of course not! Everybody knows the moment Clinton got the nomination she stopped being an evil scheming witch who stole the election from Bernie and became the most incompetent candidate in the history of politics.
[THIS IS WHAT BAILEY ACTUALLY BELIEVES.]
Bailey
@Corner Stone:
That’s not really the point.
Like it or not, he will become an issue in the campaign. I’m looking for consistency and moral clarity here. You know, that thing that the GOP has so clearly lacked.
JMG
@Bailey: Ultimate witness for the defense is Ken Starr. He didn’t find cases worth pursuing, and you know he really wanted to find the opposite. Bill Clinton was a cad, but he strikes people as a seducer, not an attacker.
MattF
Tic-Tac is not amused.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bailey: Yet the point is that with Gennifer Flowers and Monica Lewinski, it was without question consensual. With Juanita Broadrrick, she’s been all over the map with what happened, which doesn’t help her case at all.
With Drumpf, there’s no question that his advances were unwanted, but he made them anyway. Women are coming out of the woodwork to testify to this. Plus, three marriages, in the first two he was carrying on with the next wife when the marriage ended. The “Values Voters” are cool with this? This tells us all we really need to know about the true motivations of the “Values Voters”.
PPCLI
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Some of it is the usual hodgepodge of 1% fact and 99% invention you always find with these charges. Betsy Wright made some remark in private about being on the alert for “bimbo eruptions”, and that is attributed to Hillary, as evidence of Hillary’s “trashing women”. Carville said something in the ballpark of: the Clinton bashers drag money through a trailer park and see what comes up. (OK he said that in public, but it wasn’t Hillary who said it). I assume that is the source of the “bimbo” and “trailer trash” charges.
I assume that the others are similarly thin, though I wouldn’t be surprised if Hillary had some choice words among friends on the topic of Gennifer F. and Monica L. Married women do tend to have a low opinion of homewreckers.
sigaba
@Bailey: What do “consistency and moral clarity” have to do with “issues in the campaign”? These are two completely different standards.
I think you need to identify wether your concerns are either moral or political, as these are very different and only subtly related, and then explain them in a clear way. This post I reply to is innuendo.
Uncle Cosmo
@Rand Careaga: I was thinking more along the lines of “folked-up science” & “folked-up math,” but YMMV.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bailey: I am deeply ambivalent about Bill Clinton for a lot of reasons personal and political, but real time evidence is that Willey and Jones were very receptive to Clinton’s advances, at the least. Broaddrick is another matter, but rape and sex are different things, and there is no other case where Clinton is accused of being violent, and I don’t think that’s a one-off thing. No other woman has ever accused him of aggression. He is, as I see it, just horny.
Elizabelle
Margaret and Helen:
And it’s quite a list, and by no means exhaustive.
This is NOT a both sides issue. The country would be safer if our voters and our fucking mainstream media would be honest about that.
Donald Trump rose to prominence by channeling what those in his base wanted to hear. He is in trouble this particular weekend because he used language that a lot of people do not want to hear. But he is the same individual that he was two days ago. Get real, people.
Baud
@Bailey: Don’t forget about Bill’s lovechild.
Bailey
@JMG:
Possibly, although even Ken Starr likely realized his scope would be too broad to start investigating that far off Whitewater/Lewinsky. With Lewinsky there was tape and physical evidence.
Not having tape and evidence is all too common with assault cases and why women are traditionally not believed. I would PREFER to think Clinton more a seducer than an attacker, but am not so blindly partisan to think him not capable of worse behavior. I don’t know that Paula Jones thought she was being charmingly seduced.
Villago Delenda Est
@JMG: Furthermore, Starr came to that conclusion, and he was basically ordered to find “something, anything!” that would hold up long enough in court to smear Clinton. The best they could do was a shaky perjury trap involving a consensual sexual relationship between two adults.
lamh36
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle: His base still loves him. He embodies white male privilege, and they love white male privilege. He’s their hero precisely because he has that attitude toward women, toward Hispanics/Latinos, toward African-Americans, toward Muslims.
They are a basket of deplorables.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yes, the man who spent five years traveling from the Ozarks to a hotel room in Little Rock to some girl’s underwear drawer in Georgetown was terribly, terribly worried about overstepping the bounds of his mandate
the mask is slipping
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s done slipped.
lamh36
I’m beginning to think this recording was “leaked” earlier than AH/NBC wanted by #NeverTrump GOP ops after Pence did well in VP debate and right before this debate that Trump HAD to “win”, just so that you can get all these pols withdraw DJT support & try elevate Pence as way for GOP to “salvage” their chances that they lose with Trump at top of ticket
PPCLI
@Elizabelle: “Melania Trump is speechless at this point …”
One observation: Melania Trump has been speechless since the convention. Apart from a statement about her immigration history, which she clearly didn’t write but which was released under her name, this statement (which she also surely didn’t write) is the first hint we’ve had for months that she actually exists.
Bailey
@sigaba:
No, they aren’t really. They will be “issues in the campaign” because clearly Trump intends to bring them up. The “consistency and moral clarity” has to do with how the public, women and Dems in particular, respond to them. Are Broaddrick and Willey as plausible as any of the women alleging charges against Cosby? We tend to believe them—why?
Okay, I will say that “morally” I have a problem with Clinton’s behavior regardless of whether I think two adults can have consensual sex, married or not. But with Clinton, that was the very definition of power imbalance in the workplace and under any other circumstance, one should be rightly outraged as we generally are when we discover the CEO is boinking the administrative staff.
Politically I think Bill Clinton can be toxic, whether or not his is the name on the ballot.
Morality and politics cannot be divorced.
Corner Stone
@MattF: Damn! First Skittles and now Tic-Tac! I guess the Trump family really are marketing geniuses.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bailey:
It’s now official. You are a moran.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Bailey: Joe, Joe Lieberman is that you?
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Bill Clinton is a horn dog, no doubt. He is seriously lucky that Monica Lewinsky was not an agent of a foreign government.
But I don’t like that he’s been criminalized by the GOP world for so long, and his very real competence at the job denied. “Sex criminal” now defines him, and it is so terribly unfair. He has many good qualities, and cares deeply about good policy.
Not what you could say about his defilers.
I know raven hates LBJ for Viet Nam, but Johnson accomplished a lot — the Civil Rights Act — but it’s always the haters that have the final word. And that’s wrong.
(I am not speaking of raven. I am speaking of the shorthand for complex situations that has become conventional wisdom. It’s wrong. We need to push back, and take credit for the good.)
Corner Stone
@Bailey: WJC is not the candidate running for President. He will not be signing laws, using Executive Orders or commanding our military leadership.
Please tell me how making anyone defend him is the point. I’ll wait.
Lyrebird
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: FWIW the heart of Yonkers is not nearly white enough for the Republican candidate *GREAT* place to make sure everyone’s registered, though!
Go Go GOTV Go!
Bailey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Whose mask is slipping? The mask of someone who probably considers himself a “feminist” but only if various women aren’t alleging questionable behavior against a beloved Democratic character?
Bailey
@Corner Stone:
I will check back on your response after the debates and after Trump has dredged up the name and story of every woman with a grievance. Will these grievance be given air time and consideration? Why or why not? If they are, is it because there is merit to them? If they’re not, is it because Dems and press are inconsistent about being outraged by these types of allegations?
I don’t really think Bill’s executive power is the question. He will have a role to play whether he’s the elected one or not and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
Corner Stone
@Bailey: Am I being asked to vote for him? Alternatively, am I being asked to vote for Melania? If not, why not?
Lyrebird
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I really admire this poem (excerpt below) by Pam Colorado, and it’s the only rational thought* I can dig up about the woman who tweeted that screed:
*ETA PS: because shrieking WTH DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT CONSENT??? ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING CALLED A BIMBO VS BEING ASSAULTED??? ABOUT ANYTHING??? is not likely to have a good effect. They trotted out a woman to spew the same misguided garbage to defend HB2 in NC when the NCAA (iirc) moved games out of there.
Bailey
@Villago Delenda Est:
Okay, you’re kind of answering my question here.
How many women leveling the same sort of charges against Clinton does it take to suggest that there may be something there? With Cosby was it more plausible when there was 1 accuser? or 3? or 13?
With Dems and Clinton we begin to see the limits of feminism and women’s empowerment. Ranks get closed around him and defenses go up. I would accept the defense if it were thoroughly examined and then deemed insufficient. But I’m not sure that’s been the case.
joel hanes
@Corner Stone:
same same
Hmm. Your sister must be quite a character.
Most of the women in my acquaintance are able to distinguish consensual sex from sexual assault.
Elizabelle
Dick Cheney and GW Bush were likely faithful spouses. I have no information to the contrary, and their marriages are not my business, either.
They both got away with their criminal malfeasance in office because they were not associated with a personal sex scandal. They are responsible for untold death and destruction, and their incompetence unleashed ISIS/ISIL (which their supporters are now trying to blame on Hillary Clinton).
SO: Sex scandal. Nuclear.
A war that is still not over, very real death and destruction, economic devastation.
“A matter of opinion. Opinions vary. Partisan.”
It’s infantile.
Corner Stone
@joel hanes: As evidenced by at least one other commenter in this thread, the media has convinced people that any sexual activity alleged to have taken place by Bill was non-consensual and some form of assault.
Bailey
@Corner Stone:
You can keep avoiding the actual subject if you want. The question isn’t “do I have to vote for him” it is “when all this becomes public again, do I have to reflexively defend the charges and dismiss the women as raving lunatics just because?” Or instead of addressing what might be legitimate allegations, do we dismiss it merely by saying “he’s not on the ballot” even though Bill Clinton is always an issue and will have a role to play in HRC’s administration. It will unfortunately be part of national discourse. Voting for him directly is wholly immaterial.
If Melanie had a trail of allegations against her or actual immigration status problems, do you think that would be inconsequential?
Corner Stone
@Bailey: The actual subject is that there are two names on the ballot for POTUS. That is the actual subject.
Uncle Cosmo
@lamh36:
sigaba
@Bailey: In this case these are quite separate issues politically because Trump’s on a ballot but Bill Clinton isn’t. He might continue to bring it up but their trial balloons along these lines have failed and his and his surrogates’ credibility are so blown at this point they are unlikely to make headway. If he tries to bring it up in the debate he will make the very bracing discovery that Hillary doesn’t have to say anything to him one way or the other about it. She’s probably not even going to acknowledge his existence at the town hall debate, at this point she doesn’t have to, and I can only imagine the rage that will stimulate in the man.
Morally I do tend to agree with the read that Bill Clinton is a cad who has engaged in several affairs, though none of these have cost him his marriage, so I don’t know if Hillary is an “enabler” or if she actually supports him in his escapades, they may have an open marriage, it’s none of my business and it’s up to her how she wants to handle that stuff. I know Monica Lewinsky’s had a very rough few years but I can’t tell if that’s because of what Bill and Hillary did, or if it was the result of the public shame and ostracism everyone else in the US was happy to heap upon her for basically doing what she wanted. I don’t know if Bill abused his position of power to obtain sex from her, I work in the movie business though where sexual partners are often working in similar jobs or in positions of relative responsibility over each other so maybe my perspective is skewed.
(Also I think most of the children of rich Californians are to some degree “loony-tunes.” That Hillary would describe one this way might be crass but I know exactly what she’s talking about and I have my doubts that the fact of the affair itself actually had a bearing on her opinion.)
The worst thing Bill was ever accused of was raping Juanita Brodderick and sexually harassing Paula Jones. Neither of these allegations were ever substantiated and Bill certainly never proudly talked about how he did them. To be honest I have pretty low moral standards for public officials, the idea that they would sexually harass women is extremely distasteful but I accept that some of them some of the time may have done this, just as some of them may have been Klansmen, or some of them may have stolen money, or had affairs, denigrated gay people, things like that.
However, I am much more troubled by the idea that a politician would proudly proclaim they had done those things, it was their privilege to do them, and they would do them again and again. I’m totally okay with hypocrisy as long as these people profess high and correct ideals. There’s the idea that Bill Clinton is a flawed man who has failed to live up to his own vision of himself, I think that’s true. However, I have no doubt that Donald Trump has completely self-actualized and is exactly the sort of person he wants to be. People say “this is who he is,” and I’d say it’s much worse that this is who he wants to be. He is lost without a compass.
You asked a question and there’s your answer.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yes, and your equation of immigration irregularities with rape is even stupider, and more offensive, than your conflation of consensual sex and rape.
You’re not very good at this. I guess because, as we’ve observed, you’re really stupid.
Bailey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Oh FFS. The point was if Melania had any sort of legal indiscretion, not a confluence of the type of crimes. Learn to read and think.
Beyond that, if you think I’m confusing consensual sex and rape or even sexual harassment, then you have totally lost the plot.
But for the record: is it your contention that Bill Clinton just had consensual sex with Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey and Juanita Broaddrick? Is that what we’re going with? Because those women don’t seem to think anything was “consensual” at all. The question becomes why we don’t believe them when we know for a fact that women are often in a he said/she said battle and are usually not believed.
Your “observations” are quite meaningless as you clearly don’t understand what you’re reading or responding to.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bailey: The Paula Jones case was outright dismissed. This is where you fail. This is where you prove you’re a moran.
Lyrebird
@Villago Delenda Est: Thanks for doing what you do. If you like poems (see my link above), check it out.
Uncle Cosmo
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch: When you’ve lost the Herrenvölkischer Beobachter…
? Martin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Republicans still widely believe that Bill raped two other women and lied about it. That several GOP investigations dismissed the charges is just evidence of how powerful the Clintons are.
Bailey
@Villago Delenda Est:
It was dismissed on the grounds that Jones couldn’t show damages. The case was under appeal when Clinton settled with her.
None of this is proof positive of whether he did it or not, but it certainly is not proof positive that there was nothing there. As we all know, sexual harassment, sexual assault and even rape are incredibly hard things to prove in court. Which is why so many women do not get the justice they deserve.
Redleg
I lived in Utah for over 20 years and can tell you that Mormons are no more or less polite than people in any other state I have lived. We have a tendency to color people with such broad brushes, whether we are derogating them (e.g., Rude New Yorkers) or complimenting them (e.g., Polite Utahns) but reality is usually a lot more complicated.
While the practicing Mormons I knew well did not often use “swear words” (think George Carlin’s dirty words that can’t be used on network TV), some of them did liberally use words such as “faggot”, “nigger,” and “wetback,” which are definitely an example of impolite speech.
As many Utahns are quite conservative, they often say and do things that many of us liberals would find offensive. Some of the most hateful things I have heard spoken about Hillary Clinton were uttered by Mormon men in the early and mid 1990s.
As with many religious groups, the Mormons have their share of religious bigots who can’t accept that people of other faiths (or no faith) can also be moral human beings without needing to be converted to the “one true faith.”
As for Trump, I think many Utahns are still smarting from Romney’s epic loss 4 years ago. No Republican candidate will ever live up to the promise of Mitt Romney.
? Martin
@Bailey:
Because the GOP investigated them, and didn’t go forward with these cases and instead stuck with the consensual sex one as their best bet. Or are you now suggesting that the GOP is in the tank for the Clintons?
Notice that Michael Chertoff, who was the investigator for Whitewater on behalf of the GOP, endorsed Clinton. If he believed that Clinton was comparable to Trump, why wouldn’t he take the same line as other Republicans and denounce Trump and suggest voting 3rd party or write-in? He didn’t – he gave a pretty solid endorsement of Clinton.
hueyplong
1. Concerned. Very concerned.
2. Suddenly assumes the burden of producing a quarter of the posts.
3. Believes it is essential to revisit in detail the very topic Trump insists should be the focus of the next day’s debate.
4. Thinks Kenneth Starr was hamstrung by a strict sense of propriety and limited mandate for inquiry and action.
Difficult to know what we’re dealing with. Unprecedented. What could it be?
Elizabelle
@hueyplong: *snort*
sukabi
@Bailey: Bailey, ALL of Bill’s infidelities have been drug thru the streets for the last 25 years. IF there was anything other than consensual sex it would have come out years ago. The gop & media have had scores of investigators turning over rocks, beds and panty drawers looking for ANYTHING. Either they are all incompetent boobs (that’s a given) and Bill is the smartest man alive (doubtful, but smart), or there isn’t anything to find. Actually all those things can be true.
Bottom line, Bill isn’t running, and there isn’t anything to find.
Bailey
@? Martin:
Okay, but the GOP is not a law enforcement agency nor a prosecutor’s office.
Reminder, Paula Jones was a completely separate allegation from Whitewater / Lewinsky. Should also be noted that Clinton was held in contempt for his testimony in the Jones case.
Also reminder, I’m not conflating HRC with BC and I assume that Chertoff isn’t either. Would Chertoff endorse BC? I have no idea and neither do you.
joel hanes
@Corner Stone:
the media has convinced people
The media acted as an enabling megaphone for The Arkansas Project.
“The media” don’t plan; the character assassination of WJC was deliberate.
sukabi
@Bailey: Jones was also a consensual case… Also, she sold her self to the GOP to be used to try and get Clinton… got herself a nose job, and makeover so she’d look less like she came out of a trailer park… Also, she KNEW she was screwing a married man and went along anyway. No sympathies from me.
CarolDuhart2
joel hanes
Paula Jones
The bad part of the story is WJC asking the trooper to ask Ms. Jones if she wanted to meet the governor, and the trooper doing so. Pretty skeevy.
As far as I know, the ensuing events went something like this:
Bill : How about it ?
Ms. Jones : No.
Bill : Fine.
Am I materially wrong ?
Bailey
@joel hanes:
Well, you’re missing the part of her complaint where she says he exposed himself to her and propositioned her. So yeah, that’s materially incorrect.
A trooper was sent to pick her up—was she stupid to go? Maybe. Did she think she’d get a job out of it? Maybe. Is that naive thinking? Maybe. (Although it’s the same thinking that animates all the Cosby accusers.) Does naively thinking that you might get a job mean you need to get propositioned and see some guy’s junk? Um, no. No, it does not. And I don’t think for a moment this falls under “consensual sex.”
Bailey
@sukabi:
Alright, so the problem with Jones that she was trailer trash? Is that the defense strategy?
Corner Stone
@joel hanes:
Not to be too blunt about it, but you sound a little kooky. The quotation marks are a dead giveaway. Are you trying to suggest there was some type of organization to smear Bill Clinton? A large entangled group or groups of people all working together to demean Bill and Hillary and have a negative perspective attached to them? Some people on the right working with various media? Sounds a little too much like a conspiracy, to me.
The Thin Black Duke
Thread derailed. Mission Accomplished.
joel hanes
@Bailey:
I kinda thought “how about it” conveyed the idea of a proposition.
I wasn’t calling Ms. Jones skeevy, nor her poor decision to go with the trooper; I was calling WJC skeevy.
As for the exposing himself part, we have only Ms. Jones’s testimony for that, and other considerations tend to make me regard her as an unreliable witness.
IMHO, the important part of the story is that even at his skeeviest, WJC understood the idea of consent.
He asked; she said no; that was the end of it. No tiniest evidence of any coercion; not even alleged.
joel hanes
@The Thin Black Duke:
derailed
You’re right. I’ll stifle.
Bailey
@joel hanes:
Well, right, this is a common issue with sexual harassment and rape allegations: it is almost always he said / she said and they are difficult to prove. So again, that begs the question as to why Dems automatically defend BC on this even as we know statistics on reporting these types of things and how at a disadvantage women are, particularly when there is a power imbalance.
The “other considerations” of Jones character always tend to revolve around (and as articulated in this very thread) the fact that she was trailer trash and later had a nose job from her settlement money or posed naked for photos years later. As if being a lower economic class necessarily means one isn’t telling the truth of an encounter.
Beyond that, is it your contention that BC summoned her all the way there and asked to expose himself to her? The coercion is the exposing and this is miles away from “consent.” And if you don’t think there are just zillions of examples of dudes that flash their junk to women whom they’re convinced want to see it, you need to get out more.
Msb
@ Bailey,
What sigaba said.
Also, I think Bill Clinton is an adulterer. I don’t admire them (adulterers), but I think the public abuse and humiliation that Starr and the Republicans heaped on Lewinsky (“hey, young lady, how would you like to become a national joke?”) was actually worse. This encapsulates the intertwined moral and political issues here: Bill lied about having sex outside his marriage, but unlike, say, Larry Craig and former Sen. Ensign, he did not spend his political life both promoting and trying to impose far more restrictive codes of behavior on other people. Far too many male politicians pursue sex outside their marriages as a hobby, but that’s between them, their spouses and families, and God. What concerns me is their political lives.
On the moral plane, I despise the Republican habit of binding heavy burdens for others to carry (“keep an aspirin between your knees!” “don’t have children if you can’t pay the catastrophic health care expenses for them!”). As a feminist, on the political plane, what matters to me is that while many male politicians of all parties screw women individually, Republicans continually try to screw them as a class. So I prefer Democrats, including Bill Clinton, as being more likely to treat women equitably as a class, and therefore more likely to do the greatest number the largest amount of benefit currently available.
You may argue that this is a low bar, morally speaking. Men inside and outside of political office should feel free to raise it at any time.
Gvg
@Bailey: I don’t know if all Bill Clinton’s affairs have been examined adequately but I saw a billboard impeach Clinton before his inauguration. I watched years of silly witch hunt’s before they found something and before that Bill had passed good laws, helped the economy stabilize and most important vetoed several laws that were very anti women’s rights. His Presidential actions helped many millions more. His terms taught me to see the policy positions as separate from the personal.
Those veto’s were important. I also was just extremely angry at the GOP for acting so Jr. High school is hall through those years. I actually didn’t believe Lewinsky at first because their had been so many proven false accusations before. That’s what makes it impossible to treat any future Bill accusations fairly as I want all women’s stories listened too. I already know that there will be several false stories before any real one and that would not be true of someone else. There is nothing to do but wait and see.
Bailey
@Msb:
I don’t admire adulterers either and BC is clearly one. Having said that, I agree that the abuse Lewinsky suffered (and still suffers) was hideous. But let’s remember that feminists and women of all stripes hardly came to her defense even though their “consensual” relationship was a textbook example of power differentials in the workplace and would not be tolerated in any company.
Beyond that I agree that BC’s policies, and Dems in general, are better for women but that doesn’t mean the behavior always matches. It is the incongruent response to that behavior that I am questioning at. And I should also say that my tolerance of adulterers ceases when it appears that it is not, in fact, consensual and is instead harassment or predatory. I do think without a doubt that Paula Jones was not a consensual affair of a serial adulterer. Lewinsky and Jones are two sides of the coin as far as I can tell from available evidence.
sukabi
@Bailey: the problem with Jones was she was opportunistic. Trying to turn HER OWN BAD JUDGEMENT into a payday.
Bailey
@sukabi:
So it was her bad judgement to respond to a state trooper that summoned her to the state governor? Not a little bit of that was his horrific judgment? There’s nothing in that scene that isn’t predatory?
So let me ask you this — if the viable Cosby case settles and plaintiff gets a financial windfall, will the rightness / wrongness of the event be determined on how she spent her settlement money? Because that is the argument you’re making and it is a terrible one.
sukabi
@Bailey: Bailey, let go of the Clenis, for your own peace of mind. He’s not running, can’t run, all that has been run thru the wringer already. Or are you still waiting for the pen!s lineup the senate wanted to do 25 years ago?
So another trigger word?
Tom Ames
@hueyplong:
Clearly, this is a very concerning feminist issue.
Jesse
@Bailey: So… your argument is that I shouldn’t vote for HRC because her husband fucked around? Because he did shit in the 1970s and 80s that absolutely would not fly today and got away with it?
You’re putting out all these squid-clouds of poutrage because everyone here is not, decades later, leaping to the defense of Paula Jones and we are all, therefore, bad at feminism. I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.
“The GOP is not a law enforcement agency…” Right, and that’s relevant because these cases are going to formally be re-investigated by actual law enforcement at this late date.
I don’t believe Hillary Clinton will suffer any more in the court of public opinion than she already has over this. I legitimately don’t understand your version of “both sides”. This is shit her husband pulled decades ago, not a new revelation. Your attempts to paint Paula Jones as a smoking gun are very confusing.
I guess you’re saying that some young voters will look at Bill, decide he’s a shit, and go back to voting for Jill Stein? Is that the point you’re trying to make?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Well, yeah, because after their encounter in the hotel room, when Jones (Ms Corbin, as was at the time, I believe) sent on the message that she’d be open to being the governor’s regular girlfriend, said adulterous governor did not consent to an “affair”
Corner Stone
@Jesse:
The point Bailey is trying to make, and actually succeeding wildly at making, is that Bailey is very, very concerned about this. And also very concerned about HRC’s campaign.
In sum, Bailey is very, very concerned.
Lurker Extraordinaire
How very feminist of Bailey to hold a woman accountable for the actions of her husband.
Fuq. Outta. Here.
PIGL
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck: If by “performance troll” you mean “someone driven to smear himself with his own pooh in public”, why yes, I suppose he is.