Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

“woke” is the new caravan.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

In my day, never was longer.

Conservatism: there are some people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

The words do not have to be perfect.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

Republicans in disarray!

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

“Squeaker” McCarthy

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

You are here: Home / Politics / An Unexamined Scandal / Open Thread: The GOP Manufacturing Its Healthcare Sausage

Open Thread: The GOP Manufacturing Its Healthcare Sausage

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… if by ‘sausage’, you mean ‘used tube sock full of dog turds and broken glass.’

The Washington Post Wonkblog rebuts (in case you need a link for your low-info social media contacts):

… Chaffetz’s remarks comport with messaging from Republican leadership that frames their health-care proposal as a victory for consumer choice… But framing the consumer “choice” as one between an iPhone and health coverage ignores the massive gap between the price of an iPhone and what Americans spend on health care…

…[A]cross the typical life span of an iPhone, we’re spending 12 times as much on health insurance as we are on the phone.

But this, too, is an overly rosy scenario for many of us. Those individual market plans don’t just involve monthly premium payments, they also have high deductibles, too — $4,328 in a year, per eHealth. That represents out-of-pocket spending you need to cover before your plan even starts kicking in.

So let’s say we get sick. We break a leg. We have to get lab work done. Our health isn’t great, so we need a lot of medical care and max out on our deductible each year. Under the standard individual plan referenced above, that works out to about $18,000 in premiums and out-of-pocket expenses over two years. Or, for that span, the price of 23 iPhones.

This all involves a lot of speculation because we don’t really know yet how the GOP plan would reshape the out-of-pocket expenses landscape. But it seems pretty clear that, by virtue of the huge disparity in pricing, smartphones and health care don’t really fall within the same decision-making framework for most of us.

Reader Interactions

166Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    the massive gap between the price of an iPhone and what Americans spend on health care…

    He must have meant the iPhone plus.

  2. 2.

    Patricia Kayden

    GOP Rep. Chaffetz: Americans may need to choose between “new iphone… they just love” and investing in health care

    How the hell do you invest in healthcare? What about people who suffer from long term medical conditions which cost thousands (if not millions) of dollars to treat? This is such a bizarre suggestion.

  3. 3.

    rikyrah

    They are sociopaths. The entire lot of them.
    20 million people have their healthcare on the line, and these sociopaths are making smartass remarks.????

  5. 5.

    Hunter Gathers

    They’ve had 7 years to get their shit together.

    This is what happens when you put White People in charge.

    Nothing gets done, and it all gets blamed on ‘The Blacks’.

  6. 6.

    TenguPhule

    @Patricia Kayden:

    How the hell do you invest in healthcare?

    He’s talking about the real Americans, the ones with money to invest in health care STOCKS.

    Patients? Only a concern as long as they can pay for their lives.

    I can see Iraqi-style kidnappings of rich Republicans for ransom to pay off healthcare bills becoming a thing pretty soon in the Former Republic.

  7. 7.

    debbie

    I still say we pilot this program on Congress before enactment, just to make sure it’ll be as good as the GOP says it will be.

  8. 8.

    lgerard

    I would suggest to Chaffetz that Congress needs to choose between the absurdly expensive military toys they just love and investing in health care.

  9. 9.

    TenguPhule

    @Baud: Amateur.

    Insurance policies on Republican Congress and Supreme Court.

    Double policies on Trump’s kids.

  10. 10.

    cain

    They need super duper majorities in everything to get rid of it! Plus get rid of old cantankerous old people!

  11. 11.

    cain

    @lgerard:

    I would suggest to Chaffetz that Congress needs to choose between the absurdly expensive military toys they just love and investing in health care.

    This. I mean they seem to have lots of money for weapons but no money to keep their base alive, eh? I guess it is up to the Lord when it comes to healthcare.

  12. 12.

    Brachiator

    Seeing a news item that GOP lawmakers are squabbling about the health care bill. This is good.

    Along with outright Democratic Party challenges, Democrats need to help citizens keep up the pressure at townhall meetings and other venues. The Republicans keep believing that they can sucker Americans into accepting a bad deal.

    Keep pushing back.

    Keep resisting.

  15. 15.

    Corner Stone

    @Baud:

    I’ve taken out an insurance policy on John Cole’s life.

    That’s a pure sucker’s bet. Isn’t it obvious that Cole is immortal? All the Trickster Gods have tried over the years to take him out and all they have done is give him bad allergies and some arthritis. And sausage casings for fingers.

  18. 18.

    Miss Bianca

    So, here’s the text of the letter I sent to Scott Tipton (R-Koch Whore, CO):

    Dear Congressman,

    Do you have any idea how many people in your district receive insurance coverage thru’ the ACA? I do – it’s 18,700. That’s an awful lot of constituents. This “repeal the ACA and replace it with something worse” fixation that Republicans have has got to stop – it is actively damaging to the nation. Tell me again why it is that paying a penalty to the US government – funded by American taxpayers – is evil tyranny but being forced to pay a 30% penalty in a lapse of coverage to an insurance company represents “freedom”?

    You’ve been able to get away with your anti-ACA propagandizing up till now because you haven’t faced any consequences for opposing it. It’s all fun and games for you in Congress until enough of your constituents are facing death or bankruptcy because they can’t get insurance coverage, or having Grandma move in with them because Medicaid will no longer pay for her nursing home. That’s when the chickens will come home to roost.

    Spare us all the agony – vote NO on the ACA repeal bill currently before the House. Better yet – commit to the health and well-being of all your constituents NOT named Koch and vote no on any and all such bills.

    Thank you for your consideration.

    Regards,

    MB

  20. 20.

    Jeffro

    Btw can we just have the 2018 elections, like, this Saturday? Wait, no, the Saturday after…I need the extra time to get all the signs made.

    Holy cow these guys are bad at governing…communications…PR…unfortunately, not as bad at breathing…

  21. 21.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    I’ve just been sitting back and watching these guys step all over their own dicks and each other’s dicks for the last month and a half. These guys whined and bitched and moaned that they couldn’t do shit because they didn’t have the House or the Senate or the presidency or some other shit or other. And now that they have everything, they still can’t do shit because, well, I don’t know why, because liberals are all mean or something. It’s been almost fun to watch. If this weren’t the fucking country they’re fucking over, it would be a blast and a half.

  22. 22.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Walker: Great article. This is the GOP idiocy that we’re dealing with right now. As if having a cell phone is a luxury. Sigh.

  24. 24.

    lgerard

    @Walker:

    I cam see iphones being a new measure of currency, something like the Friedman Units that were so popular a few years ago

  29. 29.

    Villago Delenda Est

    These guys actually think this shit will fly. They’re like Les Nessman.

  30. 30.

    Turgidson

    @rikyrah:

    THEY have good health insurance, and probably have had decent insurance for most of their adult lives – and we already know that the GOP considers empathy to be a four letter word – so it has not occurred to them that going through life without good insurance and/or living with preexisting conditions the insurers don’t want to spend money treating might be…difficult. This is all abstract ideological posturing to them. They think people are just like them and love freedumb so much that they’d rather have the freedumb to die of untreated health problems than subject themselves to the tyranny of the government helping them procure coverage and help them with the costs. Giving consumers the freedumb to choose between private sector health plans they either can’t afford, and/or won’t cover them when they do get sick is what they think the end goal is here.

    Oh and let’s not forget that the Kochtopus is currently busy spewing a mighty cloud of teabagger ink all over the GOPers considering passing even this pile of puke they call a health care bill.

  32. 32.

    skerry

    I keep seeing people listing the number of individuals who “have insurance through the ACA”. It’s making me a bit crazy. Every American is affected by the ACA whether you buy insurance through an exchange or not. No pre-existing condition, coverage for preventative care, kids stay on parent’s policy until 26, etc. are not limited to exchange policies only.

    We all will be hurt by TrumpRyanCare if passed. Don’t let them drive the narrative – again.

  33. 33.

    PPCLI

    Hmmmm…. The AARP website is already calling the new bill “The Age Tax”.

    I think the GOP is going to be in a world of hurt over this one….

    They got used to posturing and having Obama save them with a veto.

  34. 34.

    Another Scott

    @debbie: It the glint off the edge of a military hat.

    I agree about the halo thing. Lots of senators and other big wigs seem to love their standard photography spot in the Capitol with their giant halo…

    It’s creepy, and not at all subtle.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  35. 35.

    Shana

    Since this is an open thread, Hubby asked today if any agencies had put out new regulations since Trump’s EO saying for every new one 2 need to be repealed. If so, have they addressed the EO while putting out new regulations? I haven’t heard of any. Any of you?

  36. 36.

    Corner Stone

    Louise Mensch is number one trending on Yahoo’s home page, and not for a good reason.

  37. 37.

    MomSense

    I’m hoping the Republicans fail st this repel replace mess but this is hitting me far too close. I’m trying to figure out if I should just try and get some kind of stupid job at the hospital for the health insurance. If the Republicans get their way that stupid job will probably be lost when the hospital goes bankrupt.

    It’s hard to know what to do.

  39. 39.

    Turgidson

    @PPCLI:

    I’d like to think the AARP has some cachet with its members and can convince some of them to join up with the resistance and vote out GOPers in the next elections. But the Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver has been promising to nuke Medicare and SS for how long now, and the blue hairs just keep shifting over to the GOP. Maybe now that “that boy” is out of the White House, they’ll think more clearly again. But I doubt it. They want Trump to restore the country to the “greatness” of the 1950s (1850s?) when those people knew their place and anyone with a pulse could get a respectable factory job if they were willing to put in the work every day.

  40. 40.

    Miss Bianca

    @Brachiator: Done. Like to see my fellow CO-3 citizens weigh in too. We’ll see if Tipton actually responds – he’s an “anti-Obamacare” Kool-aid drinker.

    @skerry: I can’t speak for anyone else, but I am using numbers – in this case of people in CO-3 – because our Republican Congresscritters demonstrably *do not give a shit about the American people as a whole* – they only care about the registered voters in their district.

  41. 41.

    PhoenixRising

    I’m cheating on you all by copying from the Tweet machine….busy day at work, mea culpa:

    I’ve had both cancer & iPhones. Cancer cost me 93 iPhones WITH health insurance that self-employed healthy rich people could buy before ACA. Before ACA, health savings acct and hi-deduct ins plan covered 1st 36 hrs of my cancer. After that I was a charity case for 41 more iPhones.

    Put a longer detailed thing on Medium if you want to smack a Republican congresscritter with reality: The connection between the latest iPhone and cancer treatment costs, at the time of both, was that the latest iPhone let me communicate with my child while I was traveling for treatment. To a state where enough people were insured that they had nice things like the standard of care.

  42. 42.

    Stephanie

    From Gavin Newsom:
    – Cost of iPhone: $399
    – Cost of healthcare for 1 year: $10,345
    – Hearing @jasoninthehouse compare the 2 as if they are the same: priceless

  44. 44.

    Mike G

    They had time to schedule over 50 votes to repeal the ACA while Obama was in the White House.
    Now they act like a deer in the headlights when they’re actually called on to put forward a replacement, like it never occurred to them before.
    Because they’re whiny babies who only know how to break stuff.

  45. 45.

    zhena gogolia

    @Stephanie:

    This smacks of that whole RWNJ thing that “poor” people shouldn’t have cell phones or televisions or refrigerators.

    How did we manage to let EVIL PEOPLE take over our country?

  46. 46.

    Another Scott

    @Shana: Dunno. There is this from February 8:

    Several advocacy groups have sued the Trump administration over the president’s executive order to restrict federal agencies’ ability to issue regulations, arguing in a court filing Wednesday Trump has violated his constitutional responsibilities.

    Trump’s one in, two out order violated separation of powers requirements and the “take care” clause of the Constitution by unilaterally undermining laws passed by Congress, according to Public Citizen, the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Communications Workers of America. The groups filed their suit jointly in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

    Complying with the order, which requires agencies to offset the costs of all new regulations by eliminating or streamlining two existing rules, would force agencies to violate the 1946 Administrative Procedures Act — the federal statute enabling agencies to propose and institute rules and regulations — the plaintiffs alleged.

    […]

    In the interim, agencies may find themselves handcuffed from issuing any significant rule — those with economic costs of more than $100 million — which Zieve speculated may have been the Trump administration’s true intention with the order.

    […]

    HTH.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  47. 47.

    Roger Moore

    @skerry:

    I keep seeing people listing the number of individuals who “have insurance through the ACA”.

    The numbers they usually give include all the people on the exchanges plus Medicaid expansion and staying on parents’ policy until 26. But you’re absolutely right that ACA includes a lot more than just getting more people coverage. Making sure that every plan has to provide real coverage (e.g. no charge preventive care) to count as insurance has made a real difference.

  48. 48.

    encephalopath

    I think this bill is just an ass covering exercise aimed at minimizing damage in the 2018 midterm election. They DON’T WANT this thing to pass because it would be a disaster and cost them votes when millions of people lose their coverage because they would own it with their names next to congressional votes.

    So they float this turd out as cover so they can say, “See? We tried, but the entrenched interests wouldn’t let us pass our bill.” This is intended to mollify the repeal-at-all-costs loonies.

    Meanwhile they can try to erode the financial underpinnings of the ACA in the shadows so that when the insurers all bail on the individual insurance market they can point at Obama and say, “death spiral,” after which they do nothing to fix the resulting mess.

    They never had any clue how to write a workable healthcare policy and throwing this garbage bill out there is pretty much openly admitting as much. Once again they are an opposition party only with no effing clue how to actually govern.

  49. 49.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense: If you have the stupid job with the health insurance for a certain amount of time (not sure how long) then if it goes bankrupt you should qualify for COBRA. That would give you another 18 months.

  53. 53.

    hovercraft

    I love that last tweet, hold me back,I’m going to kill you, hold me back, I’m going to kill you.

  54. 54.

    Mnemosyne

    G is currently on my very good employer-sponsored insurance because he’s a graduate student and only works part time. They deduct $400 a month from my paycheck.

    Our cell phones combined cost $150 a month. And my last iPhone only cost $299 total.

    Fuck you, Jason Chaffetz.

  55. 55.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Mike G:

    Now they act like a deer in the headlights when they’re actually called on to put forward a replacement, like it never occurred to them before.

    Because most likely, they had no intention of actually putting forward a replacement. If they could get away with it, they’d simply repeal the ACA and let people die without healthcare like back in the good old days (i.e., before the Black man had the audacity to take up residence in the White House).

  56. 56.

    PPCLI

    @Turgidson: True, but hitting the oldsters in the pocketbook dominates all those other considerations. They can put a number on what “The Age Tax” will cost them, and it is big.

  58. 58.

    jl

    Tom Price said that the GOP House mess on the rug is ‘a work in progress’?

    Was that the same Tom Price out trying to pave the way for the bill by doing absurd Medicaid bashing?
    Or was that a different Tom Price?

    Trump’s health secretary claims Medicaid takes away people’s health care
    Up is down.
    ThinkProgress

    “Medicaid is a program that by and large has decreased the ability for folks to gain access to care.”

    https://thinkprogress.org/trumps-health-secretary-claims-medicaid-takes-away-people-s-health-care-ffa7f0684822#.1ypbjx3zm

    Edit: Link found via Paul Krugman’s twitter

  59. 59.

    hovercraft

    @Baud:
    Is this your platform for 2020?

    Get Your Free Baud- i-phone
    Vote Baud 2020

    What is your healthcare plan?

  60. 60.

    Patricia Kayden

    @encephalopath:

    Meanwhile they can try to erode the financial underpinnings of the ACA in the shadows so that when the insurers all bail on the individual insurance market they can point at Obama and say, “death spiral,” after which they do nothing to fix the resulting mess.

    Ding ding ding ding ding!!

    Since they want to repeal the ACA, killing it slowly works just as well. This is exactly what we can expect. There will be no replacement.

  61. 61.

    Yarrow

    @TenguPhule: Yes. I’m fully aware of COBRA. It’s 102% of the cost of the employer’s health insurance. The 2% is the administrative fee you pay since you’re no longer an employee.

    COBRA seems to be less expensive than it was before the ACA because employer health insurance costs have been kept lower under the ACA. The rate of increase has been less than for some plans on the ACA.

    If the ACA does get undercut, COBRA may be the cheaper and better option available versus anything possible to get on what is left of the exchange. It would be expensive, sure. But at least it’s an option.

  65. 65.

    Aleta

    Re Cole,

    I started out alone to seek adventures. You don’t really have to seek them — that is nothing but a phrase — they come to you. (Taming the Bicycle )

    If we’re lucky some perverted Innocents Abroad may come of this.

  67. 67.

    hovercraft

    @Baud:
    Very smart, pandering to the BJ pet owners. Pretty soon you’ll have locked in all the votes on this top 10,000 web blog thingy. Apart from a few trolls that is.

  68. 68.

    Another Scott

    @encephalopath: On BBC America tonight they had a brief interview with some GOP bigwig about the bill. He was asked “What about the 20 million people who have insurance through the ACA?” He continued with his talking points that Obamacare had “destroyed” the US healthcare system and as evidence he pointed to some counties in Tennessee that had no insurance companies selling policies (on the Exchange) there. And so on.

    It was all there out in the open. What matters is the insurance companies, not 20 million people.

    He was also asked why it was so difficult for the US congress to pass a sensible bill that costs less when so many other countries are able to do it. His answer was that the “US has the best health care in the world” and talked over the reporter saying “if you can afford it”. So the US system is the best, but at the same time it’s been destroyed and has to be fixed right now right now right now.

    There’s no thought in any of these arguments – it’s all talking points.

    I wonder how many of his constituents will accept what he says…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  70. 70.

    SRW1

    Well, in some way iPhones might be an upgrade on the recommendation ‘to eat cake’.

  71. 71.

    dm

    @lgerard: iPhones are a big improvement over bartering chickens for your healthcare (remember that?). More portable, at least, and you probably could fit enough of them in your car to pay for many procedures.

  72. 72.

    trollhattan

    @Another Scott:
    My recollection of healthcare costs during the Excellent Adventure that was the Bush II era was galloping price hikes combined with fewer people covered. ACA slowed that while increasing coverage, did it not? It’s like these guys think our memories are blotted out further back than mid-2009.

  73. 73.

    lgerard

    Meanwhile I have a meeting this week with someone from a major insurance company to discuss a new product they hope to introduce….pet insurance

  75. 75.

    cmorenc

    Jason Chaffetz says his comments that Americans will have to choose between buying an iPhone & buying health care didn’t come out “smoothly” pic.twitter.com/XDDwjH8Rzh

    No shit, Sherlock Chaffetz. But the original way you put it speaks volumes about how you really think about providing health insurance to other people – at least you didn’t fumble even worse and talk about it in terms of choices between T-bone steaks and health care insurance.

    Too bad this asshole Chaffetz represents about the unbeatably safest red district in the country – Provo (home of BYU) and southeastward of I-15 in Utah. He’s such an asshole he might actually get a stiff challenge other than from his right, even as a Republican, if he represented Salt Lake City.

  76. 76.

    Yarrow

    Hmm…

    WASHINGTON (CNN) – President Donald Trump warned House Republicans Tuesday if they can’t get pass health care legislation after seven years of promises it could be a “bloodbath” in the 2018 midterm election, according to one member present in the meeting.

    Trump vowed to throw his full support behind the effort to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act during a meeting with House GOP leadership, saying he is “proud” to support a GOP-authored plan to replace Obamacare and told members behind closed doors that he would support it “100%,” according to sources in the room.

    But he warned lawmakers of the high-stakes nature of the effort, citing a potential electoral “bloodbath,” a member present said.

    Also from the article:

    The whip strategy going forward appears to be to remind members again and again that voting against the House’s bill is the same as voting against their President, and handing a victory to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi. The strategy is to remind members there is no second chance to get this right.

    Vice President Mike Pence also joined the meeting and was feeling hopeful about the legislation’s prospects in the Senate, sources said, despite the fact that two senators have already come out with deep concerns about the House legislation.

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    @Stephanie:

    As I mentioned below, my very good employer plan costs me $400 a month to cover my spouse and myself.

    How many iPhones does Chaffetz go through in a year that he’s buying one per month?

  81. 81.

    Yarrow

    @Mnemosyne: That’s one thing that’s really gone up–covering spouses and kids on employer plans. That used to be a lot less costly.

  82. 82.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense: Yeah, that was kind of my point. It’s something to consider and I think you’re eligible to COBRA no matter how you leave the job. It would buy you some time, at least.

  83. 83.

    trollhattan

    @Yarrow:
    Heh, I see a problem here.

    President Donald Trump warned House Republicans Tuesday if they can’t get pass health care legislation after seven years of promises it could be a “bloodbath” in the 2018 midterm election,

    President Donald Trump warned House Republicans Wednesday if they pass health care legislation after seven years of threats it could be a “bloodbath” in the 2018 midterm election,

  84. 84.

    Another Scott

    @trollhattan: I honestly think that they, like Trump, are only speaking to their Teabagger audience. They don’t care about objective reality or what anyone who isn’t a GOP primary voter thinks – they’re just continuing to beat on their tired old memes because that’s always worked in the past.

    I can’t find it, of course, but my recollection is that Trump was explicit about this at one point not too long ago, saying something like “what matters is my Republican voters”.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  85. 85.

    jl

    American Hospital Association doesn’t like the GOP bill, and opposes passage until CBO estimates costs and coverage.
    AHA doesn’t want to see drop in coverage. Probably ’cause that would mean drop in business volume and revenue for them. I predict that the AHA will not like what the CBO has to say about those two issues.

    Major Hospitals Group Comes Out Against GOP Health Care Bill

    [extract from AHA letter to Congress in the link]
    ” We believe that any changes to the ACA must be guided by ensuring that we continue to provide health care coverage for the tens of millions of Americans who have benefitted from the law. ”

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hospitals-letter-republican-health-care-bill

  86. 86.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Miss Bianca:

    That was so good, I hope you don’t mind that I’ve used it as the framework for my own message to my own Rep. Here’s what I’ve drafted (have not yet sent, but will do so before the night is much older):

    Dear Representative Portman:

    Do you have any idea how many people in the 7th Congressional District of Georgia receive insurance coverage through the Affordable Care Act? I do – it’s 53,600, which is considerably more than any other CD in the state.

    That’s a lot of constituents. This “repeal the ACA and replace it with something worse” fixation that you and your fellow Republicans have must stop, and stop now. It is actively damaging to the nation. Why is it “tyranny” to pay a penalty to the US government (funded by American taxpayers), but being forced to pay a 30% penalty to an insurance company for lapse of coverage represents “freedom”?

    I have been a constituent of yours and your predecessors since I moved to this district in 2004, redistricting lines notwithstanding. It is mostly a pleasure to live in Duluth/Gwinnett County until I realize that a significant number of my neighbors are facing death, pain, and/or bankruptcy because they can’t get the insurance coverage they need.

    If you genuinely care about your constituents, I implore you to spare us all the agony. Please, Congressman Woodall, vote NO on the ACA repeal bill currently before the House of Representatives.

    Even better — please commit to the health and well-being of all your constituents, and vote NO on any and all such bills that come before the House.

    As a committed and active voter for the entirety of my adult life, I will be following your record with great interest.

    Many thanks for your consideration.

    Sincerely,

    (SiubhanDuinne)

    Miss Bianca, if you have any objection at all to my lifting your words and phraseology, please let me know and I’ll recast the whole thing.

  88. 88.

    smintheus

    The GOP is the dog that caught the car. Not only did they have no plan what to do, they had no goal in mind while running it down. Also, they never understand what a car is.

  89. 89.

    JosieJ (not Josie)

    @lgerard: @lgerard:

    I would suggest to Chaffetz that Congress needs to choose between the absurdly expensive military toys they just love and investing in health care.

    And I’d suggest to Chaffetz that he kiss my entire black ass, the smarmy little shit. He’s got free healthcare, courtesy of the US taxpayers, and he’s going to sanctimoniously blather on about what I’m supposed to do with the scant disposable income I’ve got?!

    Taking the price of a new iPhone to be $649 (as listed on Verizon’s website), my last hospitalization would have cost me about 750 iPhones–thank God I still have health insurance. And I have heart trouble, not cancer–my cousin’s healthcare bills for her last round of chemo were 3 times as high. Somehow, I don’t think forgoing an iPhone would get either of us very far, even if we were dead set on having the latest one, which we’re not.

  92. 92.

    Pogonip

    @MomSense: If I were you I’d try to get a job, any job, with health insurance now. If the local hospital will shut down that means the area will be flooded with skilled people looking for work. If you can, get a seat on the lifeboat now, before it fills up. Good luck!

  93. 93.

    lgerard

    @Patricia Kayden:
    evidently it is a new product for this, pretty large insurance company

    anything you can tell me about your insurance? Is it any good, what does it cover/cost.
    I don’t want to look stupid

  94. 94.

    Mister Forkbeard

    @Yarrow: The best part of this is that every republican in that room knows that Trump will throw them under the bus and attack them the moment it becomes politically expedient to do so. He’ll blame everything on congressional republicans when the backlash first starts, and they know it. Trump… probably knows it, too.

    ETA: It’s also sad and telling that they’re planning on selling this shit sandwich to the republican congresscritters not by telling them it’s a good plan… but by saying if they vote against it then Democrats will get a victory. Because nothing motivates these assholes like pissing on Democrats.

  95. 95.

    marcion

    What are y’all talking about! This bill is the best, the greatest! It’s got the best insurance profits and lowest taxes in all the land! We’re gonna have so much healthcare, we’re gonna get sick of being healthy!!!

  96. 96.

    Another Scott

    @debbie: You’re good to go.

    Krugman on the Twitter machine:

    Paul Krugman‏ Verified account @paulkrugman

    Important point: the Ryancare debacle has nothing to do with Trump. This is about the intellectual and moral emptiness of the GOP as a whole

    HTH.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  97. 97.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @trollhattan:

    President Donald Trump warned House Republicans Tuesday if they can’t get pass health care legislation after seven years of promises it could be a “bloodbath” in the 2018 midterm election,

    President Donald Trump warned House Republicans Wednesday if they pass health care legislation after seven years of threats it could be a “bloodbath” in the 2018 midterm election,

    Heh.

    No, I mean Ha.

    No, actually, I mean Hahahahaha!

    Fuck it. What I mean is HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaGASPhahahahahahahha SNORThahahahahahahahahahaOHGODhahahahahahahahahaha……!

  98. 98.

    Debbie1

    @rikyrah: All this – while these Republican Congressmen are enjoying generous, government-funded health insurance coverage AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

  99. 99.

    PhoenixRising

    @dm: Well, if it’s just an x-ray, you can FIT the chickens in your car, but you’ll want a new car afterward. If it’s a PET scan, you’ll need to borrow your cousin’s dump truck and trailer to deliver all those chickens. Hence, insurance.

  100. 100.

    dm

    @smintheus: I think they were really counting on having Hillary around in the White House to protect them from the need to actually do anything other than being demagogues on this (and most any other) issue.

  103. 103.

    cmorenc

    @Yarrow:

    Vice President Mike Pence also joined the meeting and was feeling hopeful about the legislation’s prospects in the Senate, sources said, despite the fact that two senators have already come out with deep concerns about the House legislation.

    Consider that one of the two GOP Senators with “deep concerns” is Susan Collins, who talks the talk of a reasonable moderate but always in the end votes along party lines with her far-right GOP senate mates. She’s consistently proven herself nothing but a flirt and a tease with her “moderate Republican” act, never coming through on her hints that she may buck her party on issue X, or give bipartisan support to some democratic proposal if only they’ll modify it to satisfy Y concern.

  104. 104.

    Yarrow

    @dm: I agree. A very thin silver lining of her losing is that the Republicans have to own everything that happens. No place to hide.

  106. 106.

    Mnemosyne

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    The Republicans bet everything they had on one last spin of the wheel and won big, only it turns out that their prize was a white elephant. A whole herd of white elephants, in fact.

  107. 107.

    Mister Forkbeard

    @cmorenc: Right. I’ll believe any of these republicans are sane the moment they actually cross the party in a way that matters. Confirming that your vote won’t matter and then voting against a nominee doesn’t cut it, and that’s literally the most consequential thing Susan Collins has done.

  108. 108.

    Yarrow

    @cmorenc: Yes, but given all the organizations that are coming out against the plan, I think her faux “principled centrist” position might be leaning a bit more against voting for this debacle.

  110. 110.

    PhoenixRising

    @jl: I expect that AHP and the AMA are also going to come out against as well, but are presently engaged with trying to clean up the bricks they crapped when they saw the bill.

    So that’s the trifecta: lobbyists for hospitals, insurance companies and doctors think it’s even worse than the kludge they tried to smother in its bed (ACA).

    Small business owners hate the replace bill vs ACA, the self-employed hate it & 12 million people who were swept into Medicaid by ACA will hate it once their organ transplants/opiate rehab checks bounce.

    On top of it, the Grover Norquist wing of the GOP that wants to drown sick Americans in a bathtub hate it…and they vote. This IS an interesting problem the GOP created for itself, innit? Why couldn’t they just run against wase, fraud and abuse while leaving our nursing homes and hospitals solvent?

  111. 111.

    efgoldman

    @Another Scott:

    I wonder how many of his constituents will accept what he says…

    Depends. Are they distributing free coat hangers and sparrows to everyone, or just the white people?

  112. 112.

    smintheus

    @dm: Some of them, no doubt, but then there are the true believers. Somebody needs to draw Paul Ryan about when he plans to introduce his bill to replace Medicare with vouchers.

  113. 113.

    Yarrow

    @PhoenixRising:

    Why couldn’t they just run against wase, fraud and abuse while leaving our nursing homes and hospitals solvent?

    Because they’re for waste, fraud and abuse and lining their own pockets and those of their rich cronies. Oh, and they’re sociopaths and like hurting people.

  114. 114.

    lamh36

    Evening peeps.

    Not gonna be on long…still feeling a bit under the weather, so I’ve been going to bed early..

    This is my last week of work at old job. My first day of work for new job is Monday…so it’s just all truckin’ along.

    Still no furniture in new apt, I’ll have to wait another 2 weeks before going out to get new furniture, I’d like to do it all in one shopping session.

    Anyhoo, just wanted to check in with a bit more details.

    P.S. Saw Logan on Sunday…SOOO SOOO GOOD! Hugh Jackman’s last time as Wolverine (allegedly…) is DEFINITELY his best!

    TTFN, guys…

  117. 117.

    jl

    @PhoenixRising:

    Our modern idea of comprehensive health insurance began during the Great Depression, with the Blues (Blue Cross and Blue Shield) which were both originally private non-profit associations. The idea was to find a way keep doctors getting paid when a large fraction of the popuation had no secure income. Hard to make a living as a medical doctor if your patients were dying because they couldn’t get health care, and the ones still alive couldn’t pay.

    Even back then in ye good olde dayes when men were strong and women know their place, hauling chickens, your living room sofa or the kitchen sink to the doctors for a little health care just didn’t work out.

    Wasn’t about commie plot to wreck capitalism, or hapless do-gooders interfering with social Darwinism, or a big government bureaucracy conspiracy to destroy freedom. It was about keeping a steady revenue stream that was sufficient to keep professional medical practices viable. So, we may have come full circle on the health care industry’s viewpoint on the one of the important functions of comprehensive health insurance.

    The AMA allowed it, since it did not threaten their olde tymey dream of the stolid totally independent professional practice. Other solutions that sprang up during the Great Depressions, like large group practices, they fought tooth and nail.

  118. 118.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mnemosyne:

    Look out! Look out!
    White elephants on parade
    Here they come!
    Hippety hoppety
    They’re here and there
    White elephants everywhere

    Look out! Look out!
    They’re walking around the bed
    On their head
    Clippity cloppity
    Arrayed in braid
    White elephants on parade….

  119. 119.

    efgoldman

    @smintheus:

    Not only did they have no plan what to do, they had no goal in mind while running it down. Also, they never understand what a car is.

    Politics and legislating in our republican form of government depend on compromise. Dems have always understood this, even back in the day when the Southern racists were in our party. Republiklowns used to as well.However the bitter ender/True Believers in the kkkrazy kkkaukus don’t negotiate and don’t do compromise. That’ll be their (and Granny Starver’s) downfall. All or nothing in a political context usually nets nothing.

  122. 122.

    JMG

    They know if they pass it they’re at risk. They know if they don’t they’re at risk. So they don’t know what to do. Some of them will have to really roll over and play dead to pass it. I know they have no pride, but they might have a fear of looking like the gutless pukes they are.

  124. 124.

    dr. bloor

    @Yarrow: Maine has something like 85,000 ACA enrollees this year. Pretty good chunk of the electorate in a state of 1.3 million or so.

    I can’t find it, but I swear I saw a comment earlier today by Paul LePage trashing the bill. If you can’t get him on board, there might not be anyone in Maine supporting Ryancare.

  125. 125.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @zhena gogolia:
    There are a lot of them. Trump’s election demonstrated clearly that half of American white voters are single-issue racism voters. White rage at such a gigantic scale is a catastrophic problem, and produces… exactly what we’ve been seeing the last eight years.

  128. 128.

    Corner Stone

    @Baud: He is really not very good at interviewing liars.

    ETA, and I usually despise the way Tweety interrupts people just normally answering a question he has asked them. But – he will stick the fucking fork in someone if they aren’t saying what he’s looking for. And he will talk over them and beat them with information while they stammer helplessly.
    Tweety is also a bad interviewer but he doesn’t let 90% of the bullshit through without a challenge.
    Hayes gets fucking rolled 95% of the time.

  129. 129.

    OGLiberal

    OT on the twitters, because I follow him because I’m a masochist, Jim Hoft is approvingly re-tweeting Greenwald.

    Does anybody on the left outside of the hardcore Bernie Bros care about Greenwald any longer? Way back in the early Bush days I found his commentary quite useful but if Hoft is approving you…

  134. 134.

    Steeplejack (tablet)

    @Corner Stone:

    Tweety was surprisingly good tonight, especially with the weasel from Newsmax. When Tweety gets fired up and pointed in the right direction he can really bring it, but, damn, that is such a rare occasion.

  136. 136.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Always helps to have other eyes look over one’s work.

    This has been my motto for at least five decades. Every time I try to shortcut it, I regret it bigly. Thanks for the eyeballz.

  137. 137.

    opiejeanne

    @Turgidson: AARP is apparently too liberal to the point that the RWNJs have started their own version, AMAC. We know who our friends are, we know it ain’t the Republicans.

  139. 139.

    Miss Bianca

    @Jeffro: totally cool. I mean, I steal all my best ideas from the BJ hive-mind, so I might as well give back!

  140. 140.

    Miss Bianca

    @SiubhanDuinne: Wow. I am honored to see my words recast in that way, SD – your version is way more eloquent; I bet you are an awesome editor!

  143. 143.

    zhena gogolia

    @Steeplejack (tablet):

    I know everyone here was dissing him the night Trump gave that address, but I saw a clip on YouTube where he and Kathy Griffin were roasting Trump that same night.

  145. 145.

    Steeplejack

    @zhena gogolia:

    Funny you should mention that. I saw that segment: it was an extra midnight edition of his show with Kathy Griffin, Michael Moore and (by phone) Bill Maher. It had a slightly weird Hugh Hefner vibe to it, like Tweety After Dark, but it turned out to be excellent. The commentary—by all four of them—was miles ahead of so much of the stuff on Tweety’s regular show. It was almost like Tweety let his hair down and was more “real” because he perceived himself to be among the hipster outsiders. He didn’t have to pull rank and out-pundit the other political pundits, which is one of his usual (maddening) failings.

  146. 146.

    Another Scott

    @Corner Stone: I wonder how much control he, and Rachel, and the rest of the MSNBC hosts, have over who gets to be a guest. I remember when Rachel would literally (not Biden-literally) implore Republicans to come on her show because she couldn’t get any. Then, she got (former) Rep. Scott Rigell on frequently, and she was always easy on him and over-the-top generous with him. Then MSNBC started firing people and revamping their shows, and suddenly Rachel (and Chris) had a lot more Republicans on. (At least it seemed that that was the way it happened to me.) It was around that time (months before the election) when I went cold-turkey on MSNBC.

    I know there are various levels of management before one gets down to the executive producers and producers and so forth. I have know idea how much control Chris and Rachel have over their shows any more, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they’re given directions to be “balanced” and “fair” and so forth when “interviewing” their “guests”.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who hasn’t seen the interview in question.)

  147. 147.

    Another Scott

    @OGLiberal: Be careful of the echo chamber…

    Our esteemed host seems to still have reasonably high regard for GG though he does seem to Twitter-argue with him occasionally. I’m not an expert at interpreting the modem line noise that is Twitter, so don’t take my statement as gospel, but that’s the impression I get anyway.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  148. 148.

    Jeffro

    @Baud:

    Chris Hayes sucks.

    And he’s like, the third-best TV show host on the (technically) best cable news network. This is why the TV in my house only comes on for football (American and otherwise)

    If Joy Reid and Rachel Maddow had their shows on another network, there’d be no reason for MSNBC to even exist.

  149. 149.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Miss Bianca:

    I’m going to take that as a Yes :-D

    Thank you for the nice words. I’m a pretty good editor/proofreader (for other people, not for me), but mainly I didn’t want to pull a Melania on you. I wasn’t editing your text per se; was more trying to recast your excellent message into my own voice.

  150. 150.

    Quinerly

    Chaffetz has such an odd background. I had read part of it before but just checked it again. Raised Jewish in CA (but his mom was a Christian Scientist)converted to Mormonism after going to BYU on a football scholarship. His dad was Kitty Dukakis’s first husband and they had a son together that Michael Dukakis adopted when he married Kitty. Jason Chaffetz worked on Michael Dukakis’s campaign in 1988. Became a Republican after meeting Ronald Reagan in 1990.

  151. 151.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Quinerly:

    Became a Republican after meeting Ronald Reagan in 1990.

    Wasn’t Reagan already pretty well-flown with Alzheimer’s by then? What does that tell us about Chaffetz’ judgment?

    (Edit: Scritches to Poco. I read your comments every morning but usually arrive much too late to participate in the conversation!)

  152. 152.

    efgoldman

    @Quinerly:

    Became a Republican after meeting Ronald Reagan in 1990.

    When Reagan was already suffering from Alzheimer’s? Could explain a lot.

    ETA: How the hell can you type so fast, SD?

  153. 153.

    TriassicSands

    @Patricia Kayden:

    What about people who suffer from long term medical conditions which cost thousands (if not millions) of dollars to treat? This is such a bizarre suggestion.

    Duh. The people just have to forego the 50,000 iPhones they have their hearts set on. Or maybe they can’t buy that 75,000 sq. ft. house they’ve had their eyes on. And there won’t be any upgrading from the old 767 to a new 787 at least for a year or two (although maybe Trump will personally intercede and knock a zero or two off the price — he’s really good at making deals, you know). Show a little discipline, people!

    Rep. Chaffetz just oozes compassion and understanding, doesn’t he? I’ve been away from the computer for awhile and I just saw the Chaffetz clip on the WaPo site. The guy is amazing.

  154. 154.

    TriassicSands

    @Baud:

    You’ll make out better if you just insure each individual bone. That way instead of one iffy large payout you have a guaranteed continuous revenue stream.

  155. 155.

    TriassicSands

    @debbie:

    First, we need to divide them up into income groups. I recommend Ryan and McConnell participate as low-income test subjects. (Odds are they’ll both be addicted to opioids within a week.)

  156. 156.

    J R in WV

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Picky, picky, but you have two different names of your Republican reps on your revised letter, one in the salutation and one in the body of the letter. So look hard at that and pick the one you really need.

    Otherwise, great job. I’ll be stealing some of it myself tomorrow.

    Best,
    JR

  157. 157.

    Jeffro

    @TriassicSands:

    Rep. Chaffetz just oozes compassion and understanding, doesn’t he? I’ve been away from the computer for awhile and I just saw the Chaffetz clip on the WaPo site. The guy is amazing.

    One could campaign against him, even in bright-red Utah, with a Louisville Slugger as a prop…and if you carved “JC” into the bat, you’d win in a landslide.

  159. 159.

    Lyrebird (on new device)

    @PhoenixRising: Thank you for sharing your Medium article. Great, succinct, straight to the point testimony. Sorry you had to go through all that, but grateful you are sharing it.

    And Miss Bianca’s letter is awesome. I am on the road and having trouble linking right.

  160. 160.

    Jeffro

    @Jeffro: but I will not give her the benefit of the doubt for crap like this:

    What is the minimum that society should provide for its poorest, most vulnerable citizens, and how much should be taken from the rich and powerful to do it?

    Doesn’t have to say “minimum”, doesn’t have to say “taken”…

  161. 161.

    Jeffro

    @Jeffro:

    However, economic historian Bruce Bartlett, who served in the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, said that argument ignores that health insurance itself is a means of spreading the cost of health-care around.

    “Republicans argue that redistribution is inherently immoral without acknowledging that the very nature of insurance is per se redistributive,” Bartlett said. “You’re taking money from people whose houses don’t burn down to give it to the people whose houses do burn down.”

    Not a bad way to put it…we all pitch in, so that we’re covered. Then again, Republicans are allergic to common goals and common action.

    There were many ways that Obamacare also redistributed the burden of medical costs — from the sick to the healthy, with provisions such as the one denying insurers the ability to refuse coverage to people with preexisting conditions; from the old to the young, with a mandate that everyone have coverage or pay a penalty; from the rich to the poor, with an array of new taxes.

    By contrast, “the Republican plan, as outlined right now, really is centrally about income redistribution, of the reverse Robin Hood variety,” said Austan Goolsbee, a University of Chicago economics professor who was chairman of Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers.

    Go Austan, go Austan! (he’s a pretty funny guy)

  162. 162.

    TriassicSands

    If I had one wish this evening (of a limited sort), it would be for a press conference with Trump and one reporter after another would get up and ask him to describe and explain the new GOP bill. It would be hilarious. That ignoramus has no idea what’s in the bill and if he tried to describe it we’d get a truckload of “verys” and a boatload of repetitive superlatives and not a single word of actual detail.

  163. 163.

    Lizzy L

    From Reuters:

    Conservative Republicans in Congress said on Tuesday they oppose aspects of the Republican leadership’s healthcare bill and they plan to introduce their own legislation on Wednesday to repeal Obamacare.

    U.S. Representative Jim Jordan, a former chairman of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, and Senator Rand Paul told a news conference they would introduce repeal bills in their respective chambers.

    Pass the popcorn.

  164. 164.

    efgoldman

    @Lizzy L:

    U.S. Representative Jim Jordan, a former chairman of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, and Senator Rand Paul told a news conference they would introduce repeal bills in their respective chambers.

    You GO kkkrazy kkkaukus!

  165. 165.

    Quinerly

    @SiubhanDuinne: @efgoldman:
    Poco is getting some good snuggles in. He’s beat from his day at Bryce Canyon NP…and so is his chauffeur. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be sitting in Utah Googling Jason Chaffetz to make sure I won’t be anywhere near him or his district on this trip. Thankfully, I’m not. But I am making a point to drive through “Bears Ears National Monument.” Our country’s newest…the order that Pres Obama signed before leaving office…the area that Chaffetz has been so pissed off about. As for his conversion to Reaganism in 1990, the Wiki page says it happened after hearing some sort of motivational speech Reagan gave in 1990. Strange.

  166. 166.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    I still think that ACA is the new Abortion or for the Right. Some to denounce as proof liberals are evil, but never to be ended.

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