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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Not all heroes wear capes.

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

If you’re gonna whine, it’s time to resign!

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

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Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

Weird. Rome has an American Pope and America has a Russian President.

A tremendous foreign policy asset… to all of our adversaries.

Every reporter and pundit should have to declare if they ever vacationed with a billionaire.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

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Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

The arc of the moral universe does not bend itself. it is up to us to bend it.

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Rachel in Rolling Stone (Open Thread)

Rachel in Rolling Stone (Open Thread)

by Betty Cracker|  June 15, 20179:46 am| 104 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Politics

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Rachel Maddow is on the cover of the latest Rolling Stone, and there’s a fascinating interview with her here (H/T: valued commenter Quinerly). An excerpt — her dead-on accurate (IMO) description of the Trump-Russia scandal:

Q: Let’s talk about the Russia story. You got on that very early, and stuck with it.

A: Well, I mean, I’m not keeping it alive for its own sake. There’s a lot of scandal associated with this new administration. Some of it is like normal political scandal – like Tom Price trading health stocks while he was in a public position to regulate those stocks. That’s a bad scandal, but it’s kind of normal political corruption. It’s almost quaint. Then, there are Trump-specific scandals, like we now have a ruling family where there’s a crowned prince who’s an adviser without remit, and we’ve got unqualified nepotistic appointments and conflicts of interest and Trump not disclosing his taxes. And then there is this third scandal, which is about the existence of this presidency. That’s an existential scandal. If this presidency is knowingly the product of a foreign-intelligence operation, that’s not Tom Price trading stocks that he was also affecting the price of as a public official, you know? That is a full-stop national crisis. Does that mean Russia makes the air every day, even if nothing appears new? No. But when there is something to say about it, I’m going to report it insistently. And I’m willing to do that even if it bothers people.

Maddow does allow that the story could be all smoke and no fire, but she says her guiding star for assessing the importance of a Trump-related story is what Trump does, not what he says. Seems like a good technique for a journalist dealing with a pathological liar.

Speaking of liars, Trump surrogate Newt Gingrich and the whole Wingnut Wurlitzer are shrieking like scalded stoats about special counselor Mueller. Here’s a tweet from this morning:

Muelleris now clearly the ti[p of the deep state spear aimed at destroying or at a minimum undermining and crippling the Trump presidency.

— Newt Gingrich (@newtgingrich) June 15, 2017

Maddow is right to disregard what Trump says and focus on deeds. Trump isn’t strategic but rather an id lashing out. Gingrich, however, is a different sort of liar. I think he, Fox News and the rest of the Trump-enablement cooperative are setting the stage for Trump to fire Mueller. That play would indicate they have no other options.

Open thread!

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Reader Interactions

104Comments

  1. 1.

    lollipopguild

    June 15, 2017 at 9:49 am

    Newt is being SHRILL!

  2. 2.

    Jerzy Russian

    June 15, 2017 at 9:51 am

    I guess Newt thinks that undermining and crippling the Trump presidency is a bad thing?

  3. 3.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 15, 2017 at 9:53 am

    Why does anyone care what a failed politician and a hypocrite (cheating while condemning President Clinton for doing the same) says about anything? His wife got a position at the Vatican so we already know why he’s kissing up to Trump. His opinion means nothing.

  4. 4.

    Betty Cracker

    June 15, 2017 at 9:53 am

    @Jerzy Russian: Such hypocrisy too from the pol who pushed BlowJobGate. It’s a wonder his pants don’t spontaneously combust.

  5. 5.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo fka Edmund Dantes

    June 15, 2017 at 9:54 am

    OT – in sports news, the NCAA report on my Louisville Cards is due at 11:00 am. Everybody’s on edge. I imagine most of my courts will recess for digestion and discussion prior to resumption.

    Shit is serious bidness – banners may be coming down.

  6. 6.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 9:54 am

    Newt, seriously: go. Fuck. YOURSELF.

  7. 7.

    Tokyokie

    June 15, 2017 at 9:55 am

    I think he, Fox News and the rest of the Trump-enablement cooperative are setting the stage for Trump to fire Mueller. That play would indicate they have no other options.

    Betty, I also think it indicates that they all are, at the very least, accessories after the fact.

  8. 8.

    Betty Cracker

    June 15, 2017 at 9:56 am

    @Patricia Kayden: Gingrich’s blatherings are of interest as a tell, IMO. It seems the Trump propaganda complex, including Fox News and Trump surrogates like Gingrich, are running with a specific set of talking points. May just be an expression of frustration, but I think it might mean Trump really is going to fire Mueller. And if he does that, it means he knows allowing Mueller to continue the investigation will destroy him.

  9. 9.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 9:57 am

    Also (since this is an OT): you just have to laugh

    Corey Stewart is eyeing a Senate run against Tim Kaine in Virginia next year.

    I’ll never again doubt that god loves me. DO IT, Corey! Go for it, big man. New-True-Blue Virginia is going to step on you like a BUG.

  10. 10.

    Tim C.

    June 15, 2017 at 9:57 am

    My bet it is sometime late tomorrow (Friday the 16th) Trump makes the moves he needs to to fire Mueller. Then it turns into Comey II: Electric Boogaloo. There will be on-the-face ridiculous reason given, maybe trying to make it about the shooting yesterday, followed by Trump himself giving away the game on twitter within 48 hours. GOP leadership will support Trump, because they can’t do anything else. He’ll drop about 3-5% in popularity and institutional infighting intensifies at the FBI and other agencies. No Trump resignation in near future, just more chaos.

  11. 11.

    sdhays

    June 15, 2017 at 9:57 am

    @lollipopguild: Or “hysterical”, even.

    The Republicans are people who spent President Obama’s second term “investigating” Benghazi knowing full well there were no crimes there. I think they no longer conceive of the idea of an independent investigation. Investigations are started based on a pretext and executed solely for political purposes. So, if there’s an investigation going on into Trump, it’s “obviously” the Deep State attacking Trump for political purposes; actual laws are simply for the little people, a.k.a non-Republicans.

  12. 12.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 9:58 am

    @Betty Cracker: Philip Rucker’s tweeted out the GOP’s actual talking points and you are correct…they’re going to try and do everything they can to discredit Mueller and all of the investigations.

  13. 13.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 15, 2017 at 9:59 am

    The seeming multiplicity of investigations speaks for itself. But it is the repeated reference to “financial crimes” or “suspicious financial activity” that grabs my attention.

    Experts will tell you that “financial crimes” can often mean technical infractions, ways of structuring or organizing movements of money, failures to disclose, certain actions that are prima facie evidence of efforts to conceal, etc. This doesn’t mean these are just ‘technicalities’ in the colloquial sense. They are rather infractions the nature of which may be hard for a layperson to understand but which often end up snaring defendants when other crimes are too difficult to prove. But here’s the thing about the Trump world. I don’t have subpoena power. And we’ve yet to assign a reporting crew to the Trump entourage beat full time. But even with my own limited reporting, it is quite clear to me that there are numerous people in Trump’s entourage (or ‘crew’, if you will) including Trump himself whose history and ways of doing business would not survive first contact with real legal scrutiny. It sounds like Mueller sees all of that within his purview, in all likelihood because the far-flung business deealings of Trump and his top associates are the membrane across which collusion and quid pro quos could have been conducted.

    As I said, a basic perusal of business in the Trump world makes clear that serious legal scrutiny would turn up no end of problems. Just consider what was from a financial perspective, a tiny island in the Trump archipelago of mischief, The Trump Foundation which David Fahrenthold did so much with. Almost every rock Fahrenthold overturned exposed some self-dealing, at least legal violations and often real wrongdoing and as much as anything a wild level of sloppiness and indifference to doing business like even semi-honest people. From one perspective it’s hard to say Trump knowingly broke the law with the Foundation since the whole conduct of the Foundation seemed to be carried on as though none of the relevant laws even existed. Again, the Foundation was just a sideline for Trump. It’s not where he made his big money and ran off from his biggest obligations. That’s how they do business.

    If Mueller is taking a serious prosecutor’s lens to Trump’s financial world and the financial worlds of Michael Cohen, Paul Manafort, Mike Flynn and numerous others, there’s going to be a world of hurt for a lot of people. And that is if no meaningful level of 2016 election collusion even happened.

    And I don’t think that’s true.

    -Josh Marshall

  14. 14.

    rikyrah

    June 15, 2017 at 10:02 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    @Patricia Kayden: Gingrich’s blatherings are of interest as a tell, IMO. It seems the Trump propaganda complex, including Fox News and Trump surrogates like Gingrich, are running with a specific set of talking points. May just be an expression of frustration, but I think it might mean Trump really is going to fire Mueller. And if he does that, it means he knows allowing Mueller to continue the investigation will destroy him.

    Yep yep yep

    And, we will be smack dab in the middle of a Constitutional Crisis.

  15. 15.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 10:02 am

    I love how Trumpov wants to pretend that since he was – at one point – told he wasn’t being investigated, that there’s no reason for the FBI, Senate, House, or anyone to be looking into Russia’s attack on our democracy AT ALL.

  16. 16.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo fka Edmund Dantes

    June 15, 2017 at 10:02 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    A name comes to mind – Spiro Agnew.

  17. 17.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 15, 2017 at 10:02 am

    Trump isn’t strategic but rather an id lashing out.

    Yes, and if he fires Mueller, I don’t think any GOP “talking points” will save him. That is my hope, at least: that institutional (constitutional) integrity reasserts itself. And where’s my pony?

  18. 18.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 15, 2017 at 10:03 am

    Maddow does allow that the story could be all smoke and no fire,

    I’ve always thought that what trump feared wrt Russia was more embarrassment than actual criminal activity on his part*, and keeping the gov’t and the press out of the trump org books and his tax filings. If there was collusion, I doubt he knew about it, at least to any extent that can be proven. It’s probably like the lie about 5 million fake votes, or the laughable buffoonery about the size of his inauguration crowds.

    But then he bragged about firing Comey to stop the investigation. You have to willingly suspend disbelief, actually make an aggressive effort to ignore anything even resembling common sense, to say that’s not obstruction. Not that I’m waiting for Paul Ryan to admit it.

    * this may be my own hate-fueled conspiracy theory, but I continue to believe deep in my bones that a thorough examination of Rudi Giuliani would uncover collusion between him, Chaffetz and the NYT FBI office, and quite possibly some Russian “businessmen” who help him keep Judi’s expensive handbags in their own first class airplane seats.

  19. 19.

    Ruckus

    June 15, 2017 at 10:04 am

    @Patricia Kayden:
    His opinion does mean something. It’s not a good thing of course but it does mean something. For all his bullshit, and there is a metric fuck ton of it, he is listened to in far right circles. That his 4th or is it 10th wife has a position in this maladministration, is a big deal. It means he is a listened to, still respected member of the conservative side of the aisle. We may think he’s a has been, dried up, far worse than useless asshole (which he is) but he’s still listened to on the right. What it means is that there isn’t one redeeming quality about the right. Yes they gave that up long ago and it’s because he is one of the bellwether marks that makes that true.

  20. 20.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo fka Edmund Dantes

    June 15, 2017 at 10:05 am

    @rikyrah:

    To be a pedant, it will be no Constitutional crisis at all – Congress will refuse to act on it, so there is no inherently unresolved structural conflict.

    At that point, the option will be a hopeful trip to the ballot box, and after that, the way of the stated principles of the Oafcreepers.

  21. 21.

    rikyrah

    June 15, 2017 at 10:05 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Like I wrote earlier….Marshall has been on Dolt45 from pretty much the beginning.

  22. 22.

    Bruce K

    June 15, 2017 at 10:06 am

    @Jeffro: Seconded, and I recommend that he use a steak knife and a corkscrew to accomplish the deed.

  23. 23.

    rikyrah

    June 15, 2017 at 10:06 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    @Jerzy Russian: Such hypocrisy too from the pol who pushed BlowJobGate. It’s a wonder his pants don’t spontaneously combust.

    BWA HA HA HA HA H HA HAH AH A

  24. 24.

    Tokyokie

    June 15, 2017 at 10:07 am

    @Jeffro: I don’t think he was actually told he wasn’t being investigated, I think that’s merely how he chose to interpret what he was told. So the pretense is even more pathetic.

  25. 25.

    sherparick

    June 15, 2017 at 10:07 am

    Newt is an evil, corrupt man. He and the Conservative Movement see Trump as both an instrument and a cause. Since they believe in their bones in white patriarchy, they have no problem with an ultimate patriarchy, a transformation of the Presidency into an hereditary monarchy, with an oligarchy/aristocracy ruling beneath him that is the Republican Donor Class.

  26. 26.

    Chris

    June 15, 2017 at 10:08 am

    It’s fucking mind-boggling that we’ve reached a point where as prominent and long-serving a Republican as Newt Gingrich is mouthing off about “deep state.”

    I mean, those people have spent nearly two decades now telling us what a repository of heroes and patriots our intelligence/security community is, that it was outrageous that people were trying to put any limits on Jack Bauer (literally, in Scalia’s case), and that the only problem was that our fucking politicians kept interfering with them.

    Now, all of a sudden, we’re supposed to believe that the entire intelligence/security community has suddenly done an about-face and decided to become a Vast Conspiracy against Donald Trump, the Constitution, and the American people.

  27. 27.

    Corner Stone

    June 15, 2017 at 10:08 am

    I think he has to fire Mueller now. And I mean that both in the “after recent events” sense as well as the “as soon as possible” meaning. He can’t let Mueller really get started.

  28. 28.

    rikyrah

    June 15, 2017 at 10:11 am

    Would Trump fire Special Counsel Mueller during the investigation?
    06/15/17 09:20 AM
    By Steve Benen

    ………………………….

    The comments caused quite a stir, and it was soon bolstered by a report from the New York Times.

    Last month’s appointment of Robert S. Mueller III as a special counsel to investigate possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia enraged President Trump. Yet, at least initially, he holstered his Twitter finger and publicly said nothing.

    But behind the scenes, the president soon began entertaining the idea of firing Mr. Mueller even as his staff tried to discourage him from something they believed would turn a bad situation into a catastrophe…. For now, the staff has prevailed…. But people close to Mr. Trump say he is so volatile they cannot be sure that he will not change his mind about Mr. Mueller if he finds out anything to lead him to believe the investigation has been compromised.

    …………………………

    Possibility #1: Trump can’t go after Mueller now. Even if the president finds this confusing, someone from Trump World has probably told him that going after the special counsel, as some of his allies have recommended, would put his presidency in even more severe jeopardy. Nixon tried to pull this stunt at the height of Watergate with the “Saturday Night Massacre,” and if Trump did the same thing, this scandal would go nuclear. It’s not complicated: there’s little he could do to appear more guilty than firing the special counsel investigating him and his political operation.

    Possibility #2: Trump will be desperate to go after Mueller now. Look, the erratic president, unconcerned with limits and norms, has already fired the director of the FBI, dozens of federal prosecutors, and the acting U.S. attorney general. The special counsel’s investigation is getting progressively closer to the Oval Office, making Trump himself the subject of a probe the president apparently sees as illegitimate. If he’s been “entertaining the idea of firing Mr. Mueller,” it stands to reason that urge will be even stronger now, consequences be damned.

  29. 29.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 15, 2017 at 10:14 am

    @Tokyokie: I do believe he was told that he was not being investigated, what was left unsaid was that his campaign WAS being investigated, and he was not smart enough to realize there was a difference between the 2.

  30. 30.

    Walker

    June 15, 2017 at 10:16 am

    Firing Mueller requires cause. My understanding is that Mueller could sue to keep his job if he were fired.

  31. 31.

    feebog

    June 15, 2017 at 10:16 am

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo fka Edmund Dantes:

    To be a pedant, it will be no Constitutional crisis at all – Congress will refuse to act on it, so there is no inherently unresolved structural conflict.

    Gotta disagree with this. There would be protests that would make the January 21 Women’s march look like a small quilting bee. I would expect several million people to march on the White House and stay right there until Mango Mussolini resigned or congress impeached.

  32. 32.

    Tokyokie

    June 15, 2017 at 10:17 am

    Fair enough. Both of us are assuming he (mis)interpreted whatever he was said in a manner that would put him in the best possible light. Which, it would seem, is how he filters everything.

  33. 33.

    Spanky

    June 15, 2017 at 10:18 am

    @Corner Stone: Mueller already has gotten started. He’s got some real bulldogs working the case(s), and I have no doubt the low-hanging fruit is well and truly plucked. Should Trump fire Mueller (if indeed he really can), what avenues are there to bring the collected evidence before a grand jury/the next Congress?

  34. 34.

    Jack the Second

    June 15, 2017 at 10:19 am

    @Chris: Honestly, I’m kind of viewing any sort of GOP / “deep state” conflict as a win-win scenario.

  35. 35.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 10:19 am

    @Corner Stone: @rikyrah: As with all things Trumpov, it’ll depend on his mood of the moment, and whomever spoke to him last.

    If Mueller gets fired and Congress doesn’t move to impeach (which I think they won’t), then it would not surprise me to see one of the Dems on the Senate or House committees breaking ranks and starting to talk openly about what’s already known about collusion and about Trumpov’s obstruction. And the IC would likely just leak (flood?) everything.

  36. 36.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 15, 2017 at 10:19 am

    shrieking like scalded stoats

    There’s an image.

  37. 37.

    NCSteve

    June 15, 2017 at 10:21 am

    As David Frum pointed out in a tweet I think I read here, once you understand that “Deep State” is their code for “rule of law,” much of what they say makes sense.

  38. 38.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 15, 2017 at 10:21 am

    @Tokyokie: Assuming this was for me, agreed, especially about how he filters things.

  39. 39.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

    @Tokyokie:

    I don’t think he was actually told he wasn’t being investigated, I think that’s merely how he chose to interpret what he was told. So the pretense is even more pathetic.

    I believe Comey testified that back last Nov and/or this Jan, he told Trumpov that he personally (DJT) was not being investigated for collusion with Russia. Not that Trumpov wasn’t potentially being investigated for other things (like financial crimes)…but that he personally wasn’t being looked at in regards to collusion. HIs whole campaign team and assorted creeps like Manafort, Stone, Page, Cohen? Sure. But not Trumpov.

    And then he fired Comey, and flat-out admitted that it was to stop the Russia investigation, and well, that’s pretty much the definition of obstruction of justice right there.

  40. 40.

    Spanky

    June 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

    Taunting? That’s more than just a 15-yard penalty in this game, Cheetohead.

    WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump on Thursday mocked federal investigators for making up a “phony collusion with the Russians story” amid new reports that Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel, is looking into whether Mr. Trump tried to obstruct justice in the case.

    “They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice,” Mr. Trump tweeted just before 7 a.m.

    They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 15, 2017

    You are witnessing the single greatest WITCH HUNT in American political history – led by some very bad and conflicted people! #MAGA
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 15, 2017

  41. 41.

    Jerzy Russian

    June 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    It’s a wonder his pants don’t spontaneously combust.

    I would pay good money to see that happen.

  42. 42.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

    a little mod help please? my comment just disappeared

  43. 43.

    sherparick

    June 15, 2017 at 10:23 am

    Also, by the way, there is no doubt the following actual crimes were committed last year.

    1. An extremely sophisticated entity hacked into the DNC, Hillary Clinton’s campaign, and many other campaigns and stole e-mails and other documents. The unauthorized and illegal entry for malicious purposes, and the conspiracy to do so, are felonies. Both U.S., foreign, and private security agencies have concluded that the likely entities were Russian cyberwarfare agencies of the GRU and FSB.

    2. Someone then provided strategic and tactical guidance to the hackers into how to release the material in the way as to cause maximum public relations damage to Trump’s rivals in the Republican primaries, to the Democrats in the fall campaign, and not just Hillary campaign but various House and Senate elections.

    3. As for the alleged collusion and the response by Newt, Trump, et al., that there is no evidence of collusion, au contraire, we have it straight from the “Horse’s (ass)” himself. On July 27, 2016. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282 “…Donald Trump invited Russia to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails on Wednesday, asking one of America’s longstanding geopolitical adversaries to find “the 30,000 emails that are missing” from the personal server she used during her time as secretary of state.

    “I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” the Republican nominee said at a news conference in Florida. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” Donald Trump often lies, but he also often on twitter and other forums make admissions against his interest because he is also an impulsive braggart.

    During the campaign, both Trump and surrogates like Roger Stone made “predictions” that there would be more embarrassing emails dripping out. And within a few days the leaks would appear.

    Also, since the election there has been Trump’s pro-Russian, anti-NATO, policy and posturing which has helped Putin tremendously. Actions, e

  44. 44.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 15, 2017 at 10:23 am

    Qatar will sign a deal to buy as many as 36 F-15 jets from the U.S. as the two countries navigate tensions over President Donald Trump’s backing for a Saudi-led coalition’s move to isolate the country for supporting terrorism. Qatari Defense Minister Khalid Al-Attiyah and his U.S. counterpart, Jim Mattis, completed the $12 billion agreement on Wednesday in Washington, according to the Pentagon.

    via –Kevin Drum.

  45. 45.

    Mike in DC

    June 15, 2017 at 10:25 am

    Remember that a government shutdown is looming in September, and Mitch needs Democratic votes to prevent that from happening. That is the strongest possible leverage point to demand reinstatement of the independent counsel and establishment of an independent commission. Now Mitch could nuke the legislative filibuster, but I think in that instance you’d start to hear blue states quietly contemplating secession, and other things taking a very dark turn on both sides of the crisis.

  46. 46.

    rk

    June 15, 2017 at 10:25 am

    @Jeffro:

    I’ll never again doubt that god loves me. DO IT, Corey! Go for it, big man. New-True-Blue Virginia is going to step on you like a BUG

    I see to remember something similar being said about Trump. Look how that turned out. Never trust the people not to do the wrong thing.

  47. 47.

    Mezz

    June 15, 2017 at 10:25 am

    @Chris: I have a general question about the existence of the “deep state” just for the audience.

    I think this is an actual, real thing – I think the “Deep State” exists and is real. It’s just not in the form of the paranoiac fetishism of the right-wing fantasies. Let me expand:

    This is what the “Deep State” I think is: it is a community of professional civil servants who take their public service very seriously, and who undertook a career IN the public sector not because they make tons of money, but because they believe in the job and the mission.

    So in that sense, the “Deep State” IS very real. And in that sense, it is also a very real peril for That Man in the White House – because his entire administration* is predicated on the idea that public service is for saps and suckers, and the devil take the hind-most. Then you could say that the Deep State is a lethal threat to That Man’s presidency.*

    (Also please note, that this is not a universal description of all public-sector workers. I work for the Commonwealth and am aware that not all people share the ideals of civic-mindedness.)

  48. 48.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 15, 2017 at 10:25 am

    This endless fucking speculation of will he or won’t he fire Mueller is tedious. As is the non stop talk about violence and civil war. What I liked about Balloon Juice was that it was solid and sensible not given to flights of fancy like many political blogs. I am reconsidering that evaluation. If you really believe that we are going to descend into an all out fascist state then the last thing one should do is express these opinions in a public forum.

  49. 49.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 15, 2017 at 10:26 am

    @sherparick:

    An extremely sophisticated hacked into the DNC, Hillary Clinton’s campaign, and many other campaigns

    I don’t know why this particular myth persists, but it was actually a very rudimentary spear-phishing hack.

  50. 50.

    gvg

    June 15, 2017 at 10:26 am

    My understanding was that Trump can’t fire Mueller because he chose to be hired under civil service rules so there has to be cause. I suspect that means the employee has hearings and there are lots of rules and it takes time. Which since Trump doesn’t have a reason that those rules allow means he won’t get fired. He may announce Mueller is fired, send a letter like he did Comey, but I think Mueller and all the lawyers he has hired (which I think could keep working even if Mueller was fired) and the institutions of the DOJ and the FBI would know to ignore. So then he will tell Rosenstein to fire him and Trump can fire him, so that will happen and maybe a few more…….and then we have a bigger scandal like the Saturday night massacre. Not sure what happens next but maybe take the opportunity to educate more people about why Bork didn’t get a Supreme Court seat.
    Trump doesn’t seem to believe people who tell him how our laws work, how our government works. He has a temper and no self control.

  51. 51.

    slightly_peeved

    June 15, 2017 at 10:28 am

    @Walker: And firing Mueller without cause after the Washington Post story would be slam-dunk prima facie obstruction of justice. Never mind Comey’s notes – he would have committed an impeachable offense in plain sight.

  52. 52.

    sherparick

    June 15, 2017 at 10:29 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: And probably a Trump golf course and resort are in the works.

  53. 53.

    slightly_peeved

    June 15, 2017 at 10:35 am

    @Jeffro:

    talk openly about what’s already known about collusion and about Trumpov’s obstruction

    Would there be much to say about obstruction at that point? Given the Washington Post story, Trump would be knowingly and publicly firing the head of a criminal investigation into himself. The firing would be in itself the clearest case of obstruction of justice you could ever find.

  54. 54.

    rk

    June 15, 2017 at 10:35 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    What I liked about Balloon Juice was that it was solid and sensible not given to flights of fancy like many political blogs.

    When was that? i must have missed that brief period in its history.

  55. 55.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 15, 2017 at 10:36 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    What I liked about Balloon Juice was that it was solid and sensible not given to flights of fancy like many political blogs.

    What are some ones out there that are still like that? Open to new suggestions.

  56. 56.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 15, 2017 at 10:36 am

    Trump is the tip of the spear aimed at destroying his presidency. The mother fucker brags about obstructing justice.

  57. 57.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 15, 2017 at 10:37 am

    @rk: Comparatively speaking, of course.

  58. 58.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 15, 2017 at 10:37 am

    @gvg:

    Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein on Tuesday said he has not seen good cause to fire Robert Mueller, the special counsel investigating Russian election interference.

    Rosenstein clarified at a Senate Appropriations Justice, Science and Related Agencies subcommittee hearing that he, and not Attorney General Jeff Sessions, has the authority to hire and fire Mueller.

    “Have you seen good cause for firing Mueller?” Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.) asked Rosenstein.

    “I have not,” he replied.

    Rosenstein added he is confident Mueller will have sufficient independence in the investigation into the Trump campaign’s potential ties to Russia.

    Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) further pressed him on reports that the administration is considering firing Mueller, asking whether he would if President Trump ordered him to do so.

    “I am not going to follow any orders unless I believe those are lawful and appropriate,” Rosenstein said, explaining that under federal regulations, Mueller can only be fired for good cause and that reason would have to be put in writing.

    The Hill

  59. 59.

    sdhays

    June 15, 2017 at 10:38 am

    @Jeffro: I love how he took being told that he wasn’t currently a direct target of any ongoing investigation as complete, perpetual exoneration. And, of course, if he really and truly believed that, he would have completely moved on and just ignored the whole thing instead raging about it for the entirety of his nascent Preznitcy.

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’ve always thought that what trump feared wrt Russia was more embarrassment than actual criminal activity on his part

    You can’t forget his completely out of character subservience to Putin and Russia. He is deeply guilty of something, and he knows it. I honestly can’t conceive of what could possibly make Donald Trump that embarrassed, after all we’ve seen.

  60. 60.

    danielx

    June 15, 2017 at 10:38 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Believe me, that thought has occurred to me on more than one occasion.

  61. 61.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 15, 2017 at 10:39 am

    @schrodingers_cat: you think it’s speculation that a really fucking stupid guy might fire the guy investigating him for obstruction, when he’s already bragged about the same obstruction? Whatevs.

  62. 62.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 15, 2017 at 10:40 am

    @Bobby Thomson: SC said ‘endless’.

  63. 63.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 15, 2017 at 10:41 am

    @Major Major Major Major: yeah, that’s not hyperbolic. Talk about rain on your wedding day.

  64. 64.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 15, 2017 at 10:43 am

    @danielx: if we reach that point, the repercussions for blog comments will be the least of our worries.

  65. 65.

    Chris

    June 15, 2017 at 10:43 am

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Not to mention everything that was already written long before this.

  66. 66.

    Tim C.

    June 15, 2017 at 10:44 am

    @schrodingers_cat: I get what you are saying and I think you are half right. It still feels like there’s a lot of nonsense about violence and civil war II. We aren’t anywhere near the levels of political violence seen at many points in American history. Not even close. But Trump and his allies *are* at minimum trying to discredit the investigation. Firing Mueller is something he absolutely will do, in a heartbeat, if Trump thinks he can get away with it. Trump also has demonstrated shitty tactical skills and has a lousy advisory team. So talking about that is something that makes a lot of sense.

  67. 67.

    Mnemosyne

    June 15, 2017 at 10:44 am

    @Bobby Thomson:

    I think it’s more that the endless speculation is pointless, because we can have no effect whatsoever on the outcome. It’s not like we can all call up Trump like we can Congress and he’ll listen to our outrage and not do whatever it is we’re outraged about. Trump’s gonna Trump and the rest of us can get fucked as far as he’s concerned.

  68. 68.

    Mike in DC

    June 15, 2017 at 10:44 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I don’t particularly desire to contemplate a breakdown of the social contract our country was founded upon. However, we do have a scenario which is disturbingly plausible[Trump fires Mueller and Congress does nothing], and which would lead to a national crisis with few precedents, none of them good. Now, perhaps talk of extreme outcomes is unhelpful, and if so I apologize for that. I do believe, however, that discussion about what to do(within the legal and political process) in the event something both plausibly likely and awful happens, because that could happen any day now.

  69. 69.

    Chet

    June 15, 2017 at 10:44 am

    I’ve been a Rachel Maddow fan since about 2003 when I listened to her 5am Air America Radio program. Looks like I’ll be buying Rolling Stone this week.

  70. 70.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 15, 2017 at 10:47 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: this is like the family owned business where the staff tries to keep things running after the founder dies and the idiot son takes control.

  71. 71.

    low-tech cyclist

    June 15, 2017 at 10:47 am

    Rachel Maddow is on the cover of the latest Rolling Stone

    Has she sent five copies to her mother?

  72. 72.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 15, 2017 at 10:49 am

    @Mike in DC:

    I do believe, however, that discussion about what to do(within the legal and political process) in the event something both plausibly likely and awful happens, because that could happen any day now.

    That would be a constructive conversation to have but that’s not what’s happening here. Its speculation about the worst possible outcomes with a dose of fatality and doom.

    ETA: Your comment about the debt ceiling was the constructive kind not the gleeful anticipating of death and violence that I have seen too much of, off late.

  73. 73.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 15, 2017 at 10:50 am

    @Mnemosyne: well, if that’s the criterion for posting none of us should ever post ever again. Or vote. Or go to work.

  74. 74.

    Chris

    June 15, 2017 at 10:54 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    So… first Trump tries to take credit for Saudi Arabia and Egypt isolating Qatar, which apparently was supposed to be inspired by his rousing speeches to them about getting tough on terrorism, which presumably would mean that’s what he thinks Qatar is into. And… today, he sells them F-35s?

    Okay then.

    @Mezz:

    “Deep state” is real in the sense that a professional civil service with at least a few degrees of separation from politics and the electoral cycles is real. So, yeah. It’s not really an inherently sinister thing.

  75. 75.

    Chris

    June 15, 2017 at 10:56 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    Every single thing we write on this blog is pointless, in the sense of not affecting the outcome of American politics. Everything except the fundraisers and “call your congressmen” posts.

  76. 76.

    JimV

    June 15, 2017 at 10:59 am

    I’m tired of waiting for a more relevant open thread, so here goes:

    The NY Times recently picked the best 25 films of the 21st century so far, and guess which was #19?

    “But anyway, this was not a close call. The best action movie of the 21st century – the action movie that sails into contention as one of the best movies, period – is “Mad Max: Fury Road.” By a dusty outback mile.”

    (I feel vindicated.)

  77. 77.

    chris

    June 15, 2017 at 11:00 am

    Firing Mueller may not be so easy but then I am not a lawyer. What say you, legal people?

    (Doesn’t mean Twitler won’t do it.)

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    June 15, 2017 at 11:01 am

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Only if you think that none of us should post, vote, or go to work ever again because an earthquake or tornado could happen at any moment.

    As SC just said above me, prepping for the Trump disaster to come is worthwhile. Wringing our hands about it in endless speculation without actually taking any useful action isn’t.

  79. 79.

    Chris

    June 15, 2017 at 11:02 am

    @JimV:

    It’s a solid entry, no question.

  80. 80.

    Mike in DC

    June 15, 2017 at 11:03 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Well, I’m not fatalistic about it. We’re not nearly at “in case of emergency break glass” levels yet.

    It seems to me that if Trump fires Mueller and Congress does not act, the people have to exert maximal pressure upon them. Our Democrats in Congress should fight their asses off to force action. The last, best option in that regard is the shutdown vote in September.
    Beyond that, the congressional inquiries should push forward. The emoluments lawsuits will go forward. Maybe Mueller can sue to keep his job. Trump’s “strongly support” numbers are likely to drop steadily.
    The midterms will be a monumental political showdown, effectively a public referendum on Trumpism. My concern is not that the outcome will be rigged, but that the GOP is going to do everything it can to preserve its House majority. Including fake news, various kinds of voter suppression, and maybe even continuing to do nothing about Russian influence operations. We should be prepared for that.

    To be honest, the events of the past month have made me pretty optimistic that we may actually bring this guy down. But I think we should prepare for the worst in order to achieve the best.

  81. 81.

    Betty Cracker

    June 15, 2017 at 11:04 am

    @Chris: True. As an unpaid volunteer, I write about what interests me when I have the time and inclination to post. It won’t be interesting to every single reader every time, and it certainly won’t affect events in Washington DC. Shruggies.

    But as a writer and a reader, I do make an ongoing calculation of the value I derive from the exercise vs. the inevitable negativity. On balance, I find the insight, camaraderie, entertainment, etc., worth it. If I didn’t, I’d move on. I assume everyone makes a similar calculation.

  82. 82.

    Mnemosyne

    June 15, 2017 at 11:09 am

    @Chris:

    Some things are more pointless than others. I’m not really trying to attack Bobby, who’s kind of wandered into a conversation that’s been going on since yesterday, but we are all currently having a debate about how useful it is to endlessly speculate about what Trump might do since it seems to be causing some people to spin out into hopeless civil war scenarios that don’t help anyone.

    (Well, except Goku, who’s writing a post-apocalyptic novel, but should we really be providing plot points for him? ?)

  83. 83.

    amk

    June 15, 2017 at 11:10 am

    @Chris: Yup. Blogs are for people to express their views, frustrations, anger, joy whatev. Tone policing does not help.

  84. 84.

    catclub

    June 15, 2017 at 11:11 am

    @rk: right after the Fitzmas celebrations kind of fizzled.

  85. 85.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 11:14 am

    @rk: Wasn’t said by me (re: Trumpov).

    I’m able to make a pretty safe prediction about VA, living here and seeing how things are going. The NoVA Dems drag every last D voter out of the woodwork, every cycle now. The Tidewater area’s just about as reliable, and the university towns help out as well. It would take a spectacularly bad D candidate, or an incredibly good R one, or both, to make it close in a statewide race.

    Stewart’s a complete ass and the VA GOP is pretty deeply split. I like our chances in 2018 with the very popular former governor running for re-election to the Senate.

  86. 86.

    Jeffro

    June 15, 2017 at 11:16 am

    @Chris:”Every single thing we write on this blog is pointless, in the sense of not affecting the outcome of American politics. Everything except the fundraisers and “call your congressmen” posts.”

    Technically true!

    But there’s also the times when someone recommends a great read like “50 Ways to Love Your Country” https://www.amazon.com/MoveOns-Ways-Love-Your-Country/dp/193072229X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497539789&sr=8-1&keywords=50+ways+to+love+your+country which then leads to even MOAR ACTIVISM, and so on. =)

  87. 87.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 15, 2017 at 11:22 am

    @amk: First of all I am not here police tone or content.

    .@Betty Cracker: I am expressing my opinion about the recent turn the comment section has taken, not being critical this particular post.

  88. 88.

    rk

    June 15, 2017 at 11:27 am

    @Jeffro:

    I was never very confident about Hillary. I was reading Nate Silver and following the Guardian series about the rural and depressed areas where Trump was very popular. Plus there was a lot of Hillary hatred. But still did not expect Trump to prevail,being that he was such an obvious idiot. Here’s hoping you’re right about Virginia.

  89. 89.

    Wyatt Derp

    June 15, 2017 at 11:37 am

    @sdhays:

    “You can’t forget his completely out of character subservience to Putin and Russia. He is deeply guilty of something, and he knows it. I honestly can’t conceive of what could possibly make Donald Trump that embarrassed, after all we’ve seen.”

    The only thing he cares about is that people believe he is rich. Putin must have documentation that he would be flat broke but for Putin’s cash.

  90. 90.

    Corner Stone

    June 15, 2017 at 11:45 am

    @Spanky: That does seem to lead to further speculation as to if he will or will not fire Mueller.

  91. 91.

    Scotian

    June 15, 2017 at 12:02 pm

    Rachel Maddow is one of the few national American political analysts/commentators/pundits on TV i have any respect for. Why? Because she is also one of the only decent and clearly passionate process geeks left out there on either side IMHO, and that matters.

  92. 92.

    Uncle Cosmo

    June 15, 2017 at 12:07 pm

    Has Mrs. Grinch [sic] been confirmed as Ambassador to the Vatican yet?

    I would luuuuuuuv it if when she showed up to present her credentials, Papa Frankie handed ’em right back & said

    Next time you come to see me you’ll need a ticket. Va via & take that stronzo you call a husband with you.

  93. 93.

    sdhays

    June 15, 2017 at 12:21 pm

    @Wyatt Derp: I disagree (well, I agree that he cares about that, but I don’t think it’s remotely enough to explain what we’re seeing). He has done stuff with Russia that is illegal. Collusion to undermine our democracy, I don’t know, but definitely other stuff. He’s not constantly raging and panicking over the possibility that Twitter is going to taunt him for not being a billionaire. He’s afraid of ruin.

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne

    June 15, 2017 at 12:27 pm

    @rk:

    You’ve heard my theory, right? I think Rove gamed the system to guarantee a Republican victory in the Electoral College, and he started doing it back in 2010, at the least.

    Nobody could have predicted that Trump would be the nominee and not Rove’s buddy Jeb Bush, but by the time that happened, it was too late to undo the booby trap.

    I think that’s why Rove has been laying low. He knows he caused this and he’s trying not to draw attention and blame to himself as his Permanent Republican Majority implodes.

  95. 95.

    Spanky

    June 15, 2017 at 12:31 pm

    Not tone police! Not tone police! You’re the tone police!

    WaPo has an article up now titled
    “Dennis Rodman just gave Kim Jong Un ‘The Art of the Deal.’ And it may be a genius move.”
    and I’m thinking I’m not going to click on it.

    Here’s a thought: If Congress manages to screw us into a government shutdown, does that not shut down the Mueller investigation as well? And when this occurs to congresscritters on Both Sides, how does that affect their negotiating?

  96. 96.

    Mnemosyne

    June 15, 2017 at 12:36 pm

    @Spanky:

    Here’s a thought: If Congress manages to screw us into a government shutdown, does that not shut down the Mueller investigation as well?

    I doubt it, if only because it would piss Mueller off. He doesn’t seem like the kind of guy you want to make angry.

  97. 97.

    Karen

    June 15, 2017 at 12:39 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo: in the past the Vatican has refused those who either committed public adultery or were divorced. they paid big bucks to get that many marriages, between two them, annulled

  98. 98.

    Cheryl Rofer

    June 15, 2017 at 12:40 pm

    @Spanky: I’m not sure whether a government shutdown would shut down the Mueller investigation. It depends on the funding. National laboratories, for instance, can keep operating through government shutdowns.

    The hostile parties in provoking a government shutdown all seem to belong to the Republican Party. The crazies, as usual, want to shut down the government. The “moderates” do not. The Democrats seem to be standing back watching the Republicans melt down. But I’m not following it closely.

  99. 99.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    June 15, 2017 at 2:12 pm

    Government shutdowns? I worked through many of them. You know what I did? Had fun, ran errands, etc. When it was over, went back to work, got paid for my time. NO ONE turned off the lights. The government actually functioned during the shutdowns. Did any politician pay a price for “shutting down” the government? We all know the answer. You should be worried about the Debt Celing.

  100. 100.

    Yutsano

    June 15, 2017 at 2:21 pm

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: I went through the long shutdown of 2013 just fine because we still got paid in the ensuing gap plus we got a nice fat cheque right after. Debt ceiling scares me more because that’s uncharted territory the whole way round. I have no idea how we recover from such a big mistake.

  101. 101.

    randy khan

    June 15, 2017 at 3:21 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Just on the point about civil war, I think it’s just a couple of people. My suspicion is that every lefty blog has some of that right now.

  102. 102.

    randy khan

    June 15, 2017 at 3:23 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    And the irony is that the victim actually asked for advice from IT and – apparently due to a typo – got exactly the wrong answer.

  103. 103.

    sm*t cl*de

    June 15, 2017 at 3:57 pm

    Gingrich, however, is a different sort of liar. I think he, Fox News and the rest of the Trump-enablement cooperative are setting the stage for Trump to fire Mueller.

    Courtiers gotta court. Newt and his ilk are currying favour in their different ways, trying to predict what Daddy will want next and pre-emptively grovelling in the appropriate way.

  104. 104.

    Quinerly

    June 15, 2017 at 7:49 pm

    Just seeing this. Thanks for front paging it!

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