Great photo in this tweet:
Happy Father's Day! (photo by Terry Crayne; https://t.co/zJd6vjiuK3) pic.twitter.com/zQxFLjhWmx
— BirdWatchingMagazine (@BirdWatchDaily) June 17, 2018
Happy Father’s Day to all jackal dads! Hope you’re having fun with your pups.
This is a red-letter day in our household. My husband is an excellent dad and thus gets to name the day’s menu while loafing around watching golf. (Bacon and strawberry buttermilk pancakes already completed; eggplant parm coming up this evening.) Right now, he and the spawn are off riding around in the country.
To be honest, I dread Father’s Day every year because my dad and I have a difficult relationship. I disappointed him by being born without a dick, and then my sister went and did the very same thing a year later. Not long thereafter, our parents’ marriage imploded, and my dad has been more absent than present in my life ever since — by mutual agreement.
But he did teach me to swim, water ski, ride motorcycles, drive large trucks with large boats attached, launch said boats from treacherous ramps and then drive the boats too, in all kinds of weather. He taught me to scuba dive and fish. He taught me to ride and care for horses. These are all valuable skills to have, so I am grateful.
After putting it off for most of the day, I’ll call him later, and we’ll have a painfully awkward conversation because we have absolutely nothing in common. We’ll both be relieved to hang up, unless he brings up the subject of Trump, in which case we’ll hang up angry.
This is actually an improvement over our relationship in years past; we didn’t speak at all for most of the 1990s. My mom, who had more reason to despise my dad than anyone, never stopped encouraging me to maintain contact with him. And I do — partly in her honor.
We’re running out of time to get our relationship right, my dad and me. He’s in good health, but he turned 70 a couple of years back. He’s the only parent I have left, and I’m acutely aware of that.
It makes me sad that we aren’t closer, that we find it impossible to appreciate each other’s good qualities more. But given who we are, I think this is probably as good as it gets, and I’m making my peace with that as best I can.
Anyhoo, sorry to be depressing about Father’s Day, but I suspect I am not alone in feeling ambivalent about it.
Open thread!
some guy
biscuits and gravy coming up, NY strips and key lime pie tonight. taking the offspring to the springs.
Humdog
Wow, Betty. You perfectly explained strained relationship with a parent. When you look at it as “neither of us can or will change to meet the approval of the other,” hopefully it lessens the feelings of messing up a relationship with Dad. Dreading my phone call. Figure it is better to swallow what I want to say so he enjoys his day.
efgoldman
My dad’s gone since 2004. We weren’t that close because he was in the Army and traveled a lot, but our adult relationship was decent.
He grew up in the depression, basically working and going to school. He was no more athletic than i am (not at all . klutz is klutz) and we didn’t do any guy stuff. We did watch the Friday/Saturday night fights together in glorious black and white.
He was a lover of words – he actually took Shakespeare at Harvard from Kittredge himself. That was his legacy to me. And he absolutely adored his granddaughter (as I do mine)
Phylllis
Hubs got a nice card and email from his son in Columbus GA. Not quite as good as the ‘Happy Farter’s Day’ card he sent a few years ago, tho I’m thinking that one would be hard to top anyway.
NotMax
Shall say no more than that any memories (and there are few) of biological father are … mixed.
satby
it’s a two way street Betty, and not all people who have produced children are good parents, so don’t beat yourself up. I had a great dad I miss every day though he died 29 years ago. I picked a lousy father for my own children, and though they speak to him it’s fairly rarely. And I encouraged them to stay in contact with him too, until my oldest son said once to me that if he didn’t talk to his dad, his dad was just reaping what he had sown.
Happy Father’s Day to all the jackal dads.
scav
Isn’t it more important to have a real relationship with the actual entire man who is your father rather than an idealized relationship with some hypothetical social and Hallmark-branded abstraction? Real people squabble and disagree and in the best cases still usually (if not exactly always) show up when you need them, often pushing all your buttons at the same time. It’s the fact that we don’t kill them that demonstrates we’re family (no stranger would get away with that shit).
Dorothy Winsor
My father did his best. He never earned much money but he was proud when my mother outearned him. That’s a legacy. He was also an angry, irritable guy. So I have to say another legacy is a bottomless ability to write about a kid’s troubled relationship with a father.
Gin & Tonic
It’s 37 years since my Dad passed away, so this hasn’t held much appeal for me for a while. But I wish those who have fathers happiness today.
WereBear
@Dorothy Winsor: as the saying goes, “all a writer needs is a lousy childhood”?
My parents did their best with a challemging situation, and my dad was around long enough for both of us to get perspective. Still, I am not a fan of putting up with anything toxic for the sake of faaaaamily. That’s a license to abuse.
Feebog
I guess i’m one of the lucky ones. My Dad was great. Bought me my first car when I was 15 and then had my neighbor help me put in a new engine. He died in 2014, shortly after his 70th weddings anniversary. Thinking of you today Pop.
Sister Golden Bear
Kudos to you Betty about being open about this. I definitely can relate, my relationship with my own mother is… complicated… not as strained as your’s with your father, but ours definitely isn’t a Hallmark greeting card relationship.
Also, don’t beat yourself up if you don’t get your relationship “right” — it takes two do that, and he has to be willing to make the effort as well. My mother is 84, and unwilling to change who she is, so I’d already reconciled myself that there was likely to be unfinished business. Not it’s pretty much a certainty, since she was just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and only has a few months left. It is what it is, and I’ve had to make my peace it.
raven
@Phylllis: Is he at Benning?
raven
I had a totally fucked up childhood with parents divorcing when I was 11, my old man kidnapping me when I was 10 and a subsequent several decades of pain and estrangement. I got it together with both of them before they died. If I can do it anyone can.
Doug R
So, basically you’re Khan Jr?
raven
Me and my old man.
eclare
@raven: So glad to read about Lil Bit’s surgery plans this morning, thanks for letting us know. Fingers and paws crossed here.
raven
@eclare: Thanks, I have a call in to the hospital to see if we can visit. Part of me thinks it’s best to leave her alone but I’m not sure.
eclare
@raven: Sweet!
germy
1 dead, 20 hurt – 4 critically – after gunfire at Trenton Art All Night festival
Phylllis
@raven: No, just grew up in Columbus.
raven
@Phylllis: Ah, I work with folks at Columbus State quite a bit.
debbie
My dad died when he was 44 (in 1974). I never got the chance to thank him for his shielding me from my mother’s endless carping and for telling me he believed in me and trusted my judgement.
Sometime around the late 1980s or early 1990s, they really started pimping Father’s Day, obviously to sell more stuff. i remember feeling very left out that first year, and I still do. It’s not the same as Mother’s Day. I miss my mother, but mothers always are with their children, physically or not. Fathers, not so much.
opiejeanne
@raven: What a good looking fella. And your dad looks pretty spiffy too.
My dad, little sister, and me
PST
I thought I was the only dad who would choose eggplant parm if given a choice of menu. I’m not a vegetarian by any means, but I just love the stuff.
zhena gogolia
My father was my hero. Came to America almost exactly 118 years ago at age 18 with a sixth-grade education and made a life here. He was probably the smartest person I’ve ever known. I’m very grateful for the relationship we had and his INCREDIBLE sense of humor, which I think my brother and I have inherited. I miss him every day and quote him all the time. “If you’re rich, of of course you should be a Republican. Everyone else should be a Democrat.”
debbie
Speaking of birds, I saw a snowy egret flying overhead me in central Ohio last Friday morning. It was flying south, but must have been very lost.
randal m sexton
There is a Fathers day protest at the Richmond Detention Facility: https://www.facebook.com/events/177616049748422/
in case any Dad’s wanna stir up some good trouble.
raven
@opiejeanne: Great pic, the album is killing me. La Grange (lug wrench) Downers. . . real close to Villa Park!
Anotherlurker
@NotMax: Count me as another who had a difficult relationship with my Dad.
A great source of guilt for me is that I do not think fondly of him.
J R in WV
Hi Betty,
My dad taught me some good things too, never give in to improper pressure, write it and then delete 80% of it, etc.
He was a clothes horse and I am a holey tee-shirt guy, but whatever. Dad had a closet full of dinner jackets from their world cruise period. Mom had gowns, you have to Dress Up for dinner on Cunard ships, even in the South Pacific.
Gone since 2004. I still miss him. He would probably have voted for Trump, even though he was mostly a Rockefeller Republican. He didn’t do much outdoor sports, no ice cubes for the vodka and tonic! Loved mowing his very large and hilly lawn with a small self-propelled mower, no riding for him!
Not to stick an oar in … but you might mention those skills, motorcycle, truck, scuba, etc when you speak to your Dad. I learned all that same stuff, but without help from my Dad, who was puzzled by my interest in backpacking, trucks, scuba, etc. Wondered where I got it.
hitchhiker
Count me as another mom who takes joy on this day from the warm relationships my kids have with their dad — right now the 3 of them are exchanging pleasant fart jokes via text.
My own dad has been gone for 16 years. Can’t say I miss the obligatory xmas/birthday/father’s day phone calls, which is what our relationship devolved to after I lit out for the west and never went back. Some families don’t merit all that effort and angst … for me it was much more sane to just start from scratch and build one of my own.
opiejeanne
@debbie: I lost my dad 5 1/2 years ago in 2012. He wasn’t the easiest person to love sometimes, and he supported some of the worst Republicans (we thought at the time) but I imagine that he’d have hated Trump as a candidate. I know he hated his tv show and how stupid the host was.
But Dad as a dad was pretty darned good. I was supposed to be a boy and when I wasn’t he just showed me how to do boy things. I played in his garage workshop with child-sized replicas of his tools, I helped him build ham radios, he bought me a Heathkit set designed for kids to experiment with electronics, introduced me to scifi (the kind with actual science in it, not space opera although I love that too), encouraged me to do things I thought I was incapable of.
I had a mostly good childhood, although the 50s were pretty stifling (and so was my mom) so I escaped by reading everything I could get my hands on.
eclare
@opiejeanne: Love old pictures!
sukabi
Avenatti offers his firm to help mothers get their kidnapped children back.
Amir Khalid
My father died in 1983, just three months short of his 56th birthday (I myself turn 57 in a month), and exactly one month after he and my mother celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary. This Springsteen song had only recently come out at the time, and I cannot hear it without grieving for my Bapak again.
debbie
@opiejeanne:
Nice, and I bet he didn’t make you feel badly about not being a boy.
I had three brothers, all younger than me, so he did that kind of stuff with them. But he made sure I was no less tough than they were. He was a Republican, but Nixon ended that for him. I remember watching Nixon’s map-and-pointer speech, and when it ended, just as I was turning around to tell him for the millionth time that Nixon sucked and that the war was wrong, he told me there would be no need to argue about Nixon, war, or anything else. I don’t remember arguing with him after that night.
raven
EL TRI!!!!
Josie
I was so lucky. My mother told me that, when she was pregnant, all he wanted was a brown-eyed baby girl. The first one was a boy, but I came along next and he was elated. His sister had a second baby boy around the same time, and she supposedly groused that “Ralph always did get what he wanted.” He taught me so many good things and ate every mess I created in the kitchen. I’ll never have that much love and appreciation again.
Patricia Kayden
@Feebog: My Dad is great too. Sadly, he’s now blind and has to undergo dialysis every two days because of failing kidneys. Looking forward to seeing him and the other Canadian family this weekend.
Happy Father’s Day to all of you BJ poppas (pet fathers count).
Lalophobia
@sukabi: The more I see of this guy, the more I like.
Also, I’d like to take this day to take the opportunity to say FUCK YOU, DAD because seriously, the only reason I don’t actively wish him dead is because he used to tell me I did so now I don’t mostly out of spite.
Sab
I put my dad in a nursing home this year, very much against his will. Just went to drop off his Sunday papers. Had planned to take him out for a long car ride, but it’s too hot.
He seems happy now that he is settled. Air conditioning, no stairs, and excellent male/female ratio.
eclare
@Amir Khalid: Are you going to learn to play it?
opiejeanne
@raven: A family of early photographers, from just about the beginning of photography in this country. I think the oldest photo I’ve identifed that someone in my family took is from the 1850s. When Grandpa and his brother were young they worked as “kidnappers”, which in photographer lingo used to mean a couple of guys with a pony and a camera. They’d meet a kid on the sidewalk in a residential area, offer the kid a ride on the pony, have the kid show them his house and ring the bell. “Wouldn’t you love to have a photo of your little Tommy on this pony?” We have several of those photos in the collection, including one of my older daughter when she was five. The “kidnapper” was set up just outside our grocery store, complete with a pony. He was not amused when I told him the name for what he was doing.
Gelfling 545
Like, I guess, a lot of guys, my father wanted his first born to be a son. Instead, he got me. Over time he got 2 sons & another daughter and, ironically, it was clear to all that, though he loved his sons, he adored his daughters. He was an odd mix of progressive and traditional. He had no conception of “men’s work” vs “women’s work” so while we girls hauled garbage and nailed down shingles along with the boys, they did dishes and laundry along with us. He was a very traditional Catholic and a firm believer that the rules are the rules but strongly supported me when I divorced my sociopathic ex husband. I was glad that he lived long enough to see his first great grandchild born. There are six of them now and the 3 boys bear his name as their middle name. He was not wealthy or powerful but he was so well loved. Of the hundreds who came to his funeral, so, so many said to me, “He was my best friend.” He died on Christmas eve in 1999 and I am crying as I write this. We still miss him so much.
evodevo
@J R in WV: Yes. this. There’re A LOT of people who can only discuss sports/cars/woodworking/whatever with Dad, because going anywhere else ends up in hard feelings. A lot of relationships are like that. Make the most of what you got from him and count your blessings…
Amir Khalid
This is going to be an interesting World Cup. Defending champions Germany, whose 2014 run included that famous 7-1 thrashing of home team Brazil in the semifinal, have lost their opening group match 1-0 to Mexico. (I wouldn’t write them off just yet, though. When West Germany hosted in 1974, they lost a group match 1-0 to East Germany, and went on to win the tournament.)
eclare
@raven: Yep!
Amir Khalid
@eclare:
Of course.
geg6
Betty, I can relate. I had a difficult and strained relationship with my mom. Not horrible, but just two people who didn’t and, despite much effort on both sides, couldn’t seem to see eye to eye on many things. Makes Mother’s Days tough, especially since my siblings didn’t have the same experience. OTOH, Father’s Day is only sad because I don’t have my dad around to celebrate. We were soul mates.
rikyrah
That picture is so cute?
MobileForkbeard
We started off Father’s Day right – with my toddler throwing up on me at 2am. On one hand, ick. On the other hand, it was technically a gift she made herself and she bribed those tomatoes in something for hours, so I commend her effort.
Now we’re cuddling while watching TV as she has a slight fever, so it is actually nice.
eclare
@Amir Khalid: Friend of mine who was just in Germany said Germans feared this. Too conservative, wobbly against Austria.
rikyrah
Happy Father’s Day to all that take care of business?
Dorothy Winsor
@MobileForkbeard: That’s a moment you’ll remember!
raven
@opiejeanne: Like this?
rikyrah
I love sports because of my father.
I learned how to cook from my father.
He was one of the few people that I knew who actually lived his life according to the Golden Rule.
I miss him still.??
opiejeanne
@Sab: When Mom died in 2003 Dad sold his house and moved into a retirement center, in an independent-living cottage in Claremont, down the street from Claremont college. His lunch and suppers were paid for, but after a few years of tilapia and steam table vegetables, not to mention watching his friends die, he got bored and bought a house at the age of 89, with a 30 year mortgage. Everyone thought that was funny at the time but Dad told him he was going to live there at least until he was 100. He made it to 94 and I miss him every day.
MobileForkbeard
@Dorothy Winsor: Sadly, no pictures were taken to commemmorate the occasion.
opiejeanne
@raven: Exactly. It’s a little different in the Missouri Ozarks, including the pony.
My mother’s mother with her father
MagdaInBlack
Both my parents were lifelong active Republicans….my father, born 1906, my mother, born 1915.
They taught me tolerance and understanding. There was no racism or bigotry allowed in our home.
All people were to be treated with respect and kindness.
What the hell happened to Republicans?
My mother passed in 2010… She voted for Obama.
My father passed in 1977: he (they) had me “rough camping” in northern Saskatchewan at the age of 6.
I miss them both
Phylllis
@raven: Both he and hubs are proud graduates.
raven
@opiejeanne: Nice, mine was in LA.
raven
@Phylllis: Good school and getting better.
Ruckus
In the overall picture my dad was pretty good. He supported his kids, mostly, the ones without the dicks got the attitude to a certain level that was an irreparable mistake. He still supported them, let them do anything they wanted except the “normal” dick owner stuff. Betty, your dad still gave you that.
Dad passed away in 2001 after 20 yrs of Alzheimer’s suffering. That changes your perspective about death. I worked with him day to day for 20 yrs. I took over his business after he could no longer manage. I ran it longer than he did and was able to go my own direction but I think he would have approved. I remember in particular the one day he and I had a funny adult conversation between equals. I called him a fucking asshole and he laughed and I realized that he was, in most ways, just a person, like everyone else. It was a good day. I was able to hold him in my arms while he died. It was the best end I could give him for 84 yrs of living.
raven
Man, BJ is almost un useable on Safari, I switched to Chrome and it’s like clockwork.
opiejeanne
I love being able to say that mr opiejeanne was a wonderful father to our three kids, and they all love him. We haven’t heard from any of them yet but at 4pm we’re supposed to get gussied up and meet our youngest and her husband at the Purple Cafe just down the hill from our house. We live in Washington state’s attempt at emulating Napa Valley, Columbia and Chateau Ste Michelle are just across the valley; the restaurant features local wines and is surrounded by tasting rooms.
Being a native Californian I view this with both alarm and mild amusement that they want to become that unholy traffic jam of a place (I love Napa valley, but honestly?), but there are some very good wines being produced here. Can’t grow grapes here for wine but the other side of the Cascades is excellent for that purpose so they ship the grapes here. A neighbor about ten doors up from us makes wine and we got to help him. He was scrupulous about cleanliness of his equipment, about rescuing as many wasps and spiders from the grapes before the crush, and about cleaning up afterwards. We sorted and shifted 1000 pounds of grapes for him, one bucket at a time. That was a really fun day and we were exhausted afterwards. His wine is very good. His name is Attila so one of his reds is called The Hun.
Schlemazel
Sympathies Betty. I disappointed my dad by be born but he did teach me to duck and disappear. OTOH his brother walked away from his family with 2 pre-teen daughters, which for the times probably would have been a lot worse. Thanks to the miracle of the Internet they discovered he repeated the disappearing act again with a family in New Jersey & started a third in FLA when he croaked.
My hope is that I broke the chain even though I ws not the father I always wanted to be.
Doug
I have two dads. One left the family to marry the neighbor lady when I was about two years old. He’s funny and friendly. He’s warm when you’re with him, but overall he’s an out-of-site, out-of-mind kind of person. I think I saw him 3 times during the 1980s. I didn’t think I had hard feelings about the whole thing until I had a son of my own. Now I know that I’m deeply resentful. It’s more or less pleasant on those rare occasions that we’re together, but he lives 2,000 miles away, and I’m not going to make any special effort.
My step-dad entered my life when I was 6. He was never a warm person, and there is plenty about him that I don’t care for, but he always did right by me, supported the family, and had a serious sense of duty. Our phone calls are awkward because we don’t have a lot in common and neither of us likes talking on the phone much. He also lives several hundred miles away. But, I do make the effort because I appreciate what he’s done for me.
Meanwhile, I try to combine the warmth from one dad and the commitment to duty from the other dad, and hopefully I’m a much better parent for my kids than my dads were for me. So far, so good, but my kids are in their early teens, so I suppose there is time for us to turn against one another!
Poptartacus
When I was 10 years old my father told me never to talk to strangers
We haven’t spoken since
Phylllis
@raven: CSU has really handled the ‘town & gown’ thing well there, particularly in having a hand in revitalizing downtown.
Ruckus
@raven:
I have one of those as well. I think I was 5 or 6. That pony made the backyard look even smaller. Some how it also ended up not what I wanted for that birthday, even though it’s what I asked for. Sometimes you really can’t get what you want. Or expect.
Gbbalto
Lost my father almost 5 years ago. Lucky that whole immediate family is liberal, although many are Canadian. I do not want to think of my father’s reaction to trump being elected. He taught PoliSci and would have been horrified. We were never that close and I was a bad kid for a while, but I eventually learned to honor his ethics. He had feet of clay in terms of cleaving to my mother but at his remembrance celebration in Halifax, there were a whole lot of women in philosophy and polisci (remarkably sexist fields of academe) who spoke about how a letter or mention from him gave their careers the vital boost. I love you, Papa.
Ruckus
@raven:
And I had exactly the opposite result. Chrome is just unusable for me if I have more than a very few tabs open. Safari works fine. And both are better than current day FireFox. Which changed greatly about 4 upgrades ago. A major rewrite which seems to have failed miserably IMO.
Gbbalto
Cannot edit on Verizon mobile. NEED BETTER WEBSITE. Meant to say that family is liberal Canadians or Americans or both.
debbie
Not sure I’ve got this Flickr thing down, but here’s my dad at about the time I was born.
Mike J
Ruckus
@Poptartacus:
I’m sorry about your dad but I do have to say that I laughed a bit at your comment.
I’m not a dad but I did have a short period where I was a sort of a step dad. Her mom and I met and started a relationship. She was 2 1/2 when we met. I had no clue how to be a dad, but I just figured that if I did what I thought was right, it would work. It did with her, not so much with mom. One day, when she was about 5 I came home from a business trip and she jumped down the stars into my arms. It was one of my best days. It also signaled the start of the end of the relationship with mom, who couldn’t stand the possibility that she couldn’t be 100% in charge of all life any where near her. That little girl is now about 25, college graduate, I last saw her about 20 yrs ago.
cmorenc
Both my grandfathers are long gone, my father’s gone, and now so is my mom, but OTOH I became a grandfather myself back in October, and am now the senior dad in the family tree (for reasons beyond just my age). It’s both sad, strange, but also liberating to now be the patriarch of the family. My younger (now adult) daughter is taking me to dinner later today.
JPL
It’s time for someone to release her immigration papers.
Office of First Lady Melania Trump issues statement on migrant family separations: “Mrs. Trump hates to see children separated from their families and hopes both sides of the aisle can finally come together to achieve successful immigration reform.”
Mnemosyne
This is the fifth Father’s Day since both my father and my father-in-law died. They had opposite political beliefs, but they were similar in that they both realized that they didn’t want their kids to grow up feeling as unloved as they did, and they both made a great effort to constantly express their love to their children.
I had a difficult relationship with my father that took years of therapy to work through, but as an adult I have been able to accept that he did the best parenting job he could given his own terrible childhood (his father was a toxic narcissist and his mother enabled that behavior) and that my father did sincerely love me even when we didn’t understand each other.
He also had to contend with my mother’s death from cancer when I was in 2nd grade and with blending two families when he married my stepmom. He didn’t always do the greatest job with any of that, but he did the best he could.
kevin
Dad here whose teenage kids don’t want to hang out on fathers day. Mom’s out there please encourage your kids to see their dads. There are many of us out here trying to do our best.
Mnemosyne
@Ruckus:
One of the reasons my same-age stepbrother stopped dating women with kids (which meant he pretty much stopped dating at all) was that it broke his heart when he stopped seeing a woman who had a small kid that he really liked. He would have loved to be able to keep being a substitute dad for the kid without having to date the mom, but that’s not how our society works.
Ruckus
@JPL:
That must be one hell of a prenup if she’s willing to stay with this asswipe of a father and partner.
Talk about unhappy fathers day, think of the first family. Sort of puts a lot of other families in perspective. Never thought I’d have any empathy for any dumpf family member. Sure it’s not a lot of empathy, but having some strikes me as weird.
Spanky
I am a failure as a father.
Luckily, the failure was at the impregnation stage, so no children were harmed. Still, I think in some way I failed my father by not giving him grandkids.
And it would have been great to do so.
JPL
@Ruckus: Don’t fool yourself, because she was demanding to see President Obama’s birth certificate.
Dorothy Winsor
Chelsea Clinton does a nice job of responding on twitter in a way that makes jerks look like jerks while she keeps her dignity.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
I agree.
This was a toxic relationship in many ways. Great kid, once we went to one of mom’s friends new house warming party and had to take the kid, mom couldn’t find a babysitter. Mom put her in a side room by herself with all her dolls and was content to leave her alone with them. I went in to check on her, sat on the floor with her and just talked to her. Soon adults from the party walked in, sat down and started having a fun time playing with this girl and her dolls. Mom was furious that the party got stolen and was no longer an adult party. Tough shit for her, the rest of us had a hell of a good time. But mom had a hard time that her daughter was the center of attention and she was just another adult in the room. I believe that the term narcissist applies here. Maybe not to the level you experienced but still applies. A horrible disease to have to be victim to.
Mnemosyne
@Anotherlurker:
If I may paraphrase Anne Lamott, if your father wanted you to remember him warmly, he should have behaved better.
My father told me that he was relieved when his father died, because he would never have to deal with him again.
JPL
This article is interesting.. https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/
It contains a lot of information that we all know, but I didn’t realize that they were blocking legal ports of entry to ask for asylum.
eclare
@JPL: Melania, it’s not both sides you feckless….
Ruckus
@JPL:
Oh I know. We don’t deserve either of them but I still have a somewhat soft spot for people who are victims, even if being that victim is partially their fault and they deserve a lot of what they get on their own merits.
We are all seeing what it means to be shit upon by drumpf, and to see people prostrate themselves at his tiny feet for who the hell knows what, and wonder why the hell do they do that. They do so because they don’t know any better, which says horrible things about a lot of people. They do so because they see someone like themselves and are willing to submit to his bullshit, which says even worse about them than they never learned better, that they are also horrible people.
I feel sorry for people who are so shallow they can’t see any other possibility in life.
frosty fred
@Dorothy Winsor: Most of us should be grateful not to have the kind of practice Chelsea has, at keeping her dignity when dealing with jerks.
Gelfling 545
@eclare: Give her a break. Should read WH publicity people issued a statement in Mrs Trump’s name. I doubt she says/ does anything of her own volition
rikyrah
Merchandise for 44 and Forever FLOTUS’ portraits at the National Gallery
https://saamnpgstore.si.edu/shop-by-exhibition.html/obama-portraits.html/?SID=nr6sn4tflfkd4g4f3capch4uc1
frosty fred
@Ruckus: Interesting. I haven’t used Safari in years, but I go back and forth between Firefox (always for this site) and Chrome. Some sites do better with one, some with the other. At Ancestry.com there’s actually features where I prefer their performance on Chrome, and others that I like better on Firefox.
eclare
@Gelfling 545: Nope, no break. She publicly questioned Obama’s birth certificate, she’s all in.
Patricia Kayden
No, you don’t have to be a citizen to ride the dang bus. Greyhound and other similar domestic bus lines need to train their drivers about how to handle over zealous CBP agents.
The Ancient Randonneur
@Dorothy Winsor: She’s a real class act. The apple didn’t fall from the tree.
chris
Buckle up! Here comes the next step. Thread.
opiejeanne
@debbie: I think you have that page set to private. You can change that in the controls to the right below the photo.
gammyjill
My dad was a typical 1950’s dad. Distant from his children. I always say we were fond of each other, but if one of us disappeared, I honestly don’t think he’d have cared. He and my mother were very close, to the exclusion of the four kids.
I certainly didn’t expect much in the way of parenting from them, but all four of us basically raised ourselves and did a pretty good job of it. The three of us who have children are very close to ours and really are good parents.
The thing about my Dad was that he was a lifelong, rabid Democrat and a diehard Cubs fan. He died in 2007 and I sure hope he was “watching” the next year when Obama was elected. He’d have gotten a kick out Obama as president. And I hope he somehow knew that the Cubs – finally – won the Series. Also, he’d have hated Trump even more than he hated Nixon!
debbie
@opiejeanne:
Fixed. I consider you my friend; I don’t see why Flickr won’t!
Ruckus
@Ruckus:
Look at many of the stories on this post or others from other fathers/mothers days. There are many of us with less than OK parents, people who never actually wanted to be parents or who never should have been put in that position. Look how many people want that to continue, to have future generations suffer the same way they did, and their parents did. That was what was expected of people in the generations before mine and still is in many people in the current generations. But that is changing. Slowly for sure but it is changing. And who are the people who are fighting the changing, the growth of humanity? Exactly the people one might expect, the people with horrible parents/grandparents/families. Not all of us managed to break the cycle of bad/horrible parents and either never have kids or raise ours completely different than we were. But we have the technology now to make that happen easily and safely, something that humans have never really had and only for less than 50 yrs. And like any major change it never goes as smoothly as one might like or hope. The first successful pacemaker was installed 50 yrs ago, in 1968. My friend who died last year got her first in 1972. She was an experiment, the docs didn’t value the life of a black woman with sickle cell to live that long anyway, so why not. Boy did she and the technology fool them. Life has changed more in my lifetime than in any other 70 yrs in history. My grandfather, born in 1890, saw flight, men on the moon, autos in every garage, garages with most every home, freeways. And he crossed the country at 28 yrs old with his wife and infant son, by horse drawn wagon. I thought he saw a lot of change in life during his 84 years. And he did. But we have seen more, and we are also seeing a lot of resistance to those far more fundamental changes.
Medicine has changed far more in my lifetime than anything else and made fundamental change in our lives even possible. And that change is the one thing that conservatives are fighting, for they fear change more than anything. Change defeats all of their arguments, makes them look as small as they really are. Change opens up possibilities for many and shuts down possibilities for those that oppose it because they can’t understand it.
Sab
@chris: Is this letter for real?
sukabi
@chris: jfc, where’s the “deep state” when you need them?
Won’t matter to the Drumpf supporters as most don’t travel outside the country so don’t need a passport.
Mnemosyne
@chris:
As rikyrah clued us in a few years ago, this is how they prevent African-Americans who were born in the South pre-1970 from getting voter IDs. Most were born at home with midwives because segregated hospitals wouldn’t take Black patients, and now the US government is challenging those citizens because they don’t have “proper” birth certificates. ?
Ruckus
@frosty fred:
One has to carefully tweak all browsers to make them work reasonably, add ad blockers and check for proper security, otherwise the money grubbers will take over your life. Apple and Safari seems to take security more seriously than others but even there there are security issues.
JPL
@chris: Is there anyway to enlarge it?
JPL
@Mnemosyne: Although I had my original birth certificate, the seal was no longer raised. I had to pay over $100.00 to acquire a new one. In GA you have to have a paper trail for each name, so don’t think about ripping up a marriage certificate, or pay more money to get a new one. A friend told me that she met someone from IL who was married four times previously. She decided to take her chances by just renewing an out of state license. Of course, she can’t vote.
The law is discriminates against females who want to take their husband’s name. I wish my DIL didn’t, but she had her reasons.
Mnemosyne
@Sab:
It looks extremely plausible. People in the replies were able to verify that the official who signed the letter works for that division of the passport bureau.
During the Bush years, they started challenging the citizenships of people born at home in rural areas of Texas and claiming that the midwives had faked the birth certificates to make it look like the babies (now adults) were born in the US. Looks like Trump is reviving that and demanding even more documentation than before.
Calouste
@Mnemosyne: Yep, a lot of this stuff is done to continue racist practices that happened in the past, even though the current practices themselves are technically not racist. Legacy admissions at universities are another example.
Also notice that the woman basically gets prosecuted for a felony the Nazis at State say was committed by someone else more than 50 years ago when she was a minor. Is there anything except murder that you can still get prosecuted for more than 50 years later?
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Hard to perpetuate slavery if people have birth certificates, schooling, parents without noose burns to their necks, police aren’t shooting at your kids – or you, you are allowed to work for money and purchase a house, not have your kids stolen away from you if you try for a better life……… you know, if you are allowed a normal life.
efgoldman
@JPL:
A lot of methods available in the back of certain publications. Glendale Bill knows all about it.
Ruckus
@Calouste:
Kidnapping I think. And if I remember correctly that happened only after Lindbergh.
JPL
Imagine if you will, a 68 yr old being asked for every address you ever lived. My dad was in the Navy and he retired after thirty years when I was 7. I can remember the last address, but not the previous ones in CA.
JPL
@efgoldman: The comments help identify some of the request.
Mnemosyne
@Calouste:
Also note that this is EXACTLY what the birthers claim Obama’s parents were guilty of — giving birth in one country and then getting false documentation that he was born in the US.
That claim got legs because of the cases in Texas where they did find some (alleged) fraud by midwives, which just so happened to allow Texas authorities to demand proof of citizenship from Latinos in rural areas close to the border.
raven
@JPL: My bride kept hers.
raven
@efgoldman: It washes out if you blow it up.
sukabi
@JPL: further down in the thread someone retyped it in a word doc…
JPL
If you haven’t heard about the ACLU case vs ICE in Boston, watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NlQpblIfAc
@raven: I still have it along with my baptism certificate. Without the seal it wasn’t valid. I also have the certificate from the naval hospital.
raven
@JPL: I meant her name!
Betty Cracker
Update: Made the call, and we kept the discussion to boats, motorcycles and fishing, so it was perfectly pleasant! ?
sukabi
@JPL: when my ex and I were married (in the army) we had a new address every 18 months or so…there is no way I’d be able to provide addresses on all my residences, there must have been 15 just during that 18 year period…
JPL
@sukabi: Let’s see if this works for others who have vision impairment.
https://twitter.com/ECMcLaughlin/status/1007411497113440257/photo/1
I didn’t save my confirmation certificate, and the church that I attended is no longer there .
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I’m having a way better Father’s Day than I deserve. My wife loved all my suggestions, so we’re doing all of them. Matinee of Incredibles 2, steak lunch at our favorite diner, and a session of Irish music at the pub with a local guy we like a lot.
Incredibles was sold out, so we bought tickets for a show tomorrow. I’m a retired / self-employed guy, so I can do stuff like watch matinees on Monday.
raven
@sukabi: If the Army had wanted you to have a spouse they would have issued you one!
JPL
@JPL: This worked for me. Thanks sukabi.
https://twitter.com/CRodriguezS20/status/1007727247116177416
sukabi
@JPL: the heathen that I am, I don’t think I’ve ever been baptized…if I was it was as a Presbyterian…but I don’t think it ever happened.
Ruckus
@JPL:
I’m at the end of my 68th year and I’ve lived in 12 different places, not counting the navy, and I can remember the addresses of 2 of them. Where I live now and where I lived the longest as a child/teen. I know what all of them look like and know the street names of most of them but the addresses? NFW.
JPL
I just read the request, and I’m surprised that it didn’t have a request to solve the Middle East crisis.
sukabi
@raven: yeah, heard that a bunch…☺
JPL
@Ruckus: Well wait until they ask all the names of the teachers you had in elementary school. At least I remember they all started with Sister.
Ruckus
@raven:
LOL.
How many times did you hear that or variations?
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@raven: The original is quite blurred. Someone in the comments transcribed it but I just left clicked it and opened the image in a new window. It was mostly legible and clearer than trying to read the tweet rendered version. Most of the requested data such as baptismal certificates and school records have been used for supplemental verification for decades. My wife’s mother was born at home, other relative’s had been destroyed. In order to collect SS benefits supplemental verification (of age) was required, and baptism records were part of what they used. They don’t require any specific records, but require enough substantiation to verify what you claim.
The Texas midwife thing may just be a hangover from the Bush years. I doubt they ever stopped. There was a good deal of fake ID (criminals hiding and spies) uncovered in the 80’s and 90’s based on old birth records for children that died in infancy that helped spawn the enhanced ID movement.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they have gone to enhanced scrutiny with Trump however with motives that are ulterior.
Ruckus
@JPL:
Shit, I’m in deep here. I’m horrible with names. Some I remember just fine for decades but most I could run through every name I think I’ve ever heard and still not get it right. Names of teachers? I can’t remember the name of my favorite college professor. At least I’m consistent, I can’t remember the name of my least favorite either. I do remember the name of the vice principal at a technical HS I attended for freshman year, Father Schaffer. Yes it was a catholic school. He was such an asshole he was hard to forget.
Zinsky
I had a wonderful father who died way too young (only 66 – he was a 40+ year smoker). He was a tool and die maker who lifted himself out of crushing poverty in the north woods of Wisconsin during the Great Depression at age 12 by hitchhiking to Minneapolis and getting odd jobs setting pins in bowling alleys and painting houses. He was a staunch Democrat and union labor organizer who taught me the value of hard work and to always give until you can’t give anymore. While I lack his mechanical skills, I did inherit his exceptional math skills and I made a comfortable life for my beautiful wife and three liberal children by being a CPA. I also am generous to a fault, giving away more than I probably should to friends, family and even casual acquaintances. That is what distinguishes liberals from conservatives, in my opinion – their graciousness and willingness to sacrifice for others. Donald Trump doesn’t have a gracious cell in his body, nor has he ever sacrificed one thing for anyone besides himself. He learned that from his father, who by all accounts, was a bigoted, narcissistic asshole like Donald. Today, I give thanks for my loving, liberal father who really lived a life of decency, sacrifice and humility – words that are not even in the modern conservative lexicon.
Mnemosyne
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
The difference seems to be the level of documentation they’re (allegedly) requesting. Dates of the mother’s prenatal appointments?
raven
@Ruckus: a zillion
lamh36
HOW IS THIS NOT KIDNAPPING!!!
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): When you read the request it sound Orwellian, and I’m beginning to doubt the veracity. The mother’s date of birth and father’s date of birth is quite common, but this is quite different.
The Ancient Randonneur
Verklempt https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1008336985692532736
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Mnemosyne: A lot like the literacy tests they used to require before allowing voting, isn’t it?
To black citizen: “What’s the annual rainfall in Brazil to the nearest tenth of an inch?”
To Bubba: “What’s the number between 3 and 5?” “No, try again.” “No, not that either.” “Here’s a hint. F… fo… “
Ruckus
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
With the drumpf maladministration, that has to be the most used phrase ever. Or at least should be. I’m stunned but never surprised at the levels and bullshit that the worst people ever use or implement. In fact I ask myself what is the worst that they could say or do and then expect them to be worse. They always disappoint, in that they never meet my expectations, they are always far worse. We are seeing the worst that humanity has to offer, a real low time in history. Seemingly on par with the Spanish Inquisition or the Forty Year War or, damn there are so many periods in history that suck this bad.
Only possible understanding of history. Humans are, overall, fucking horrible. Safest bet ever, “We can do better.”
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@Mnemosyne: It starts out by saying “to the extent they are available”, this is a permissive list, not requirements. But yes prenatal and postnatal records would be very rare to have access to. If they did it would either be very convincing or very suspicious depending on the records.
Again I would not be shocked if this administration ratcheted up the requirements, but this isn’t proof of that.
Ruckus
@raven:
Yep, a rational number that I expected. A zillion. Not a rational number anywhere but in the military, where it is absolutely normal.
Mnemosyne
@JPL:
As noted above by several people, requesting additional documentation like baptismal certificates or school registrations in lieu of an absent or equivocal birth certificate is quite common and accepted. What’s different about this one is the level of documentation being demanded.
If it’s a fake letter, they sure went to a lot of trouble to figure out exactly who the bureaucrat signing letters from that exact office would be.
The Ancient Randonneur
@lamh36: It’s a crime against humanity. Trump, Nielsen, and Sessions should all be sent sent to The Hague. Everyone else down the chan of command should be prosecuted here. That includes ICE employees and anyone who works for a contractor and hasn’t resigned.
JPL
@Mnemosyne: I just don’t want to believe that it’s happening. You can serve honorably for our country, but that’s it. The first person who died during w’s war with Iraq that died, had a green card.
I have a friend that knows someone on MSNBC, and I’ll ask her to forward the information.
Today we discovered that they are closing the legal entry into the country so those seeking amnesty have to arrive illegally, and they are now going after American citizens.
What we don’t know is if Melania worked illegally on a travel visa, and we don’t know what’s in Trump’s tax returns.
Mnemosyne
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
This exact kind of “permissive” documentation requirement is how Wisconsin is preventing African-Americans who were born out of state from getting voter ID cards. All the state does is keep insisting that more and more documentation is required for “proof” until the requester finally gives up.
Remember the “long-form birth certificate,” which Kay correctly pointed out has never been required from any other president, ever, but just happened to be needed from Obama? Permissive documentation makes it easy for obstructionist bureaucrats to insist that just one more piece is needed.
ETA: People here who applied for green cards and/or citizenship said that they brought EVERY piece of documentation listed from all of the “either/or” lists just so they wouldn’t run into a bureaucrat who insisted that the one piece of documentation they didn’t bring was actually the mandatory one.
The Ancient Randonneur
@Mnemosyne: It’s also known as a false flag. Someone made it just good enough.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): Here is a summary from https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/requirements/citizenship-evidence.html about supplimental information.
Early public or private documents
Early public or private documents are documents that were created and/or issued early in the applicant’s life, preferably in the first five years.
Public records should include the applicant’s full name, date of birth, and place of birth. Examples include:
Baptism certificate
Hospital birth certificate (often shows baby’s footprints)
U.S. Census record
Early school records
Family Bible record
Doctor’s records of post-natal care
Form DS-10, Birth Affidavit (this should be completed by an older blood relative or an attending doctor)
Mnemosyne
@JPL:
I would love to believe that it’s fake, but both current conditions and past performance make it very plausible to me that Trump’s administration has started doing this. As I mentioned, Republicans started getting these kinds of documentation requirements passed into law post-9/11 during the Bush years, so they wouldn’t even have to ramp things up very far.
Mnemosyne
@The Ancient Randonneur:
And your proof that it’s a fake and not a bad scan is … ?
Assuming good faith on the part of Trump’s understaffed and demoralized State Department will get you laughed out of town.
ETA: I hope everyone realizes the irony of saying that someone who’s being asked for more documentation to get a passport hasn’t provided enough documentation to prove their claim.
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): I have traveled to Canada and Mexico but that was before you needed a passport, but my youngest son has a passport and wasn’t required to show additional info. My goodnes I’m a bad mom, cuz I don’t have that. It should be okay though, because we are white.
JPL
@Mnemosyne: Hope springs eternal.
Now in the words of that great commenter fuckem.
also.. It appears that he has never been questioned before about his birthright.
Brachiator
I went to see a mid-day screening of Incredibles 2 and it was big fun, quite charming. I think this was the first big spring/summer blockbuster aimed at kids and families, and my theater was full of well behaved, energized kids, ready for fun. Lots of dad’s with daughters, too. Everybody got their money’s worth. I had not read the reviews and don’t know if this crowd knew about aspects of the movie beforehand, but a nicely done subplot is about father’s and daughters. The animation and storytelling is up with Pixar’s best. There is an accompanying short which is okay, a nice intro.
I didn’t catch the title, but one of the trailers was about a live action adventure film about how early man and the first proto-dogs got together. Looks like fun. And another trailer for Christopher Robin, the creator of the Pooh stories, looks like it might be sweet and heartwarming.
Afterwards I strolled around the Pasadena Chalk Festival. Artists draw their work on designated areas of the sidewalk. The street and courtyard were full of the kind of people Trump hates, a diverse and happy crowd, all flavors of America, lots of creativity and happiness. A cover band did a version of Magic Carpet Ride, a hippie approved counter culture song I’ve not heard in years. Little kids were jamming to the song like they knew it for years.
A good day.
JPL
@Brachiator: If you haven’t seen it yet stream Coco. My dream is to have it played 24 hours a day for Trump in jail.
Mnemosyne
And to be clear, I’m not running off to Facebook to post a link to that tweet declaring that the letter is 100 percent real. I am still waiting for further confirmation before I start citing it anywhere, but I do find it plausible that it’s real.
chris
@Sab: Poster is a lawyer and activist who was part of the “comfort women” case so I assume it’s real unless she’s being scammed.
Wish I could blow it up but it’s clear enough.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@JPL: Supplemental information is required for people who do not have one the following primary documents: from the link above@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
Primary
Born in the United States?
Fully-valid, undamaged U.S. passport (can be expired)
U.S. birth certificate that meets the following requirements:
Issued by the city, county, or state of birth
Lists applicant’s full name, date of birth, and place of birth
Lists parent(s)’ full names
Has the signature of the city, county, or state registrar
Has the date filed with registrar’s office (must be within one year of birth)
Has the seal of issuing authority
Born outside the United States?
Fully-valid, undamaged U.S. passport (can be expired)
Consular Report of Birth Abroad or Certification of Birth
Certificate of Naturalization
Certificate of Citizenship
The Ancient Randonneur
@Mnemosyne: I was referring to the letter.
efgoldman
@JPL:
Who is this great commenter Fuckem?(*)
We have multiple certified copies of all (three) of our birth certificates, and our marriage certificate
For family history purposes, I also have a framed, certified ropy of my maternal grandparents’ wedding certificate in Boston before 1900.
(*)Maybe I should change my nym.
cckids
Happy Father’s Day to all the dads, or to the moms who are going it alone. Good on all of you!
I’m sitting here listening to a common theme in early June in Seattle; crows going crazy/mobbing a Bald Eagle who’s robbing their nests & killing their young. There’s a metaphor for the USA in there somewhere, but I’m not capable of making it today.
JPL
@chris: I sent it to my friend and hopefully she will pass it on to her connection at MSNBC. The level of detail is horrifying, because my children would not be able to get a passport.
efgoldman
@cckids:
Nature raw in tooth and claw….
Too much to think about. I took a nap.
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): Phew! They didn’t accept his birth certificate though, because he was born on a border city.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@JPL: If you are talking about the original subject that introduced this stuff, it wasn’t because it was a border town, it was because the midwife birth certificate didn’t meet the requirements listed.
Sab
@Mnemosyne: I am 64 and white, and born in NC to an Ohio family. Took me 18 months to get a bitth certificate copy ten years ago when I applied for a passport. I know when and where I was baptized and confirmed, but I don’t know if the parish still exists. What about Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion.
Thinking about religion and the government shouldn’t enrage me, but it does.
The Ancient Randonneur
@Mnemosyne: I assume nothing nothing. And I was referencing the letter. Enjoy your day at Disneyland.
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): The person listed has to be in his fifties, and what’s next for him? That really concerns me, because they can turn over the info to ICE. It has been reported that they are going through documents of legal citizens.
efgoldman
@Sab:
I married the first mrs efg in ~1968. She converted (to Judaism) and we were married in a temple by a rabbi. When I wanted to remarry the current mrs efg in 1977, and she wanted to get married by a priest (and a rabbi – a whole other story), she had to locate mrs efg’s #1 baptismal certificate (the parish still existed) and proved to the diocese that there was no wedding certificate attached. Therefore, by church logic, I was never married to mrs efg #1 (or she was never married to me) so she was free to have a priest co-officiate.
Must have taken hold – we’re 41 years in August.
Tazj
@Zinsky: That’s what my Dad did as well, set bowling pins for money during the Depression as a 10-12 year old. He also was a golf caddy when he got the chance. Some people were wonderful to him, others were mean, didn’t pay him and laughed when the bowling pins hit him. My Dad had a strong sense of empathy and hated when others were put down or abused.
We didn’t always get along so well, I think he preferred my more outgoing siblings and cousins but I know he went with out to make sure me and my siblings had what we needed. He loved animals and tried to teach me not to fear spiders or insects. He could fix almost anything from cars to refrigerators and tried to teach me the same(I know a little about cars).
Though he’s been gone for 25 years, I know he wouldn’t have ever liked Trump.
Happy Father’s Day!
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@JPL: Those birth certificate requirements changed in 2011 https://www.tripsavvy.com/birth-certificate-requirements-for-passport-applications-2972802
efgoldman
@Sab:
Yes it should. It should fucking fuel incandescent rage.
No Law means NO FUCKING LAW.
If there were really a deity, Evil Leprekkkaun and all his acolytes would be struck down
Fuckem
chris
@JPL: I went to high school in the US and crossed back and forth on a handwritten baptism certificate held together with tape and folded into my wallet. In Canada that scrap was good enough to get a SIN and a driver’s license. 40 odd years ago.
My theory is that your so-called government is going to try and toss anyone they can. They’re trying it in the UK, see “Windrush scandal” if you haven’t already.
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): Hopefully he can meet some of the requirements, because if we start deporting fifty somethings because they question the original birth certificate, then the USA is not a country I recognize.
efgoldman
@Tazj:
My dad grew up in the city and delivered news papers (Boston Post) in the 1920s; – it’s what was available to a tenement kid at the time.
His often-repeated “when i was your age” mantra was that one shoulder was always lower than the other from carrying the heavy newspaper bag around his route, in Boston’s Back Bay to rich people’s town houses.
Ruckus
@Sab:
Yes it should enrage you. That was part of our founding, that religion didn’t/doesn’t define you. Which it did in many countries at the time and still does in some places. This was viewed as a place where you could start from scratch, you could be a human, a citizen, just by being born. Many countries don’t recognize that level of birthright. You have to have the parentage, the religion, the politics to be a citizen. This one was different. The place you are born, who you are born to, things you have no control over were not supposed to matter. That has never truly been the way it worked exactly, people have superimposed their prejudices upon everyone else since time began and the first one of us crawled out of the ooze. But this was supposed to be different, better. But humans have been fucking up life for their entire history. Like drumpf thinking he’s superior because he lies, cheats and steals so mediocrely.
Mnemosyne
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
In 2008, the ACLU sued Bush’s State Department saying that they were demanding additional documentation from all Texas Latinos applying for passports who had midwife birth certificates, not just the ones who had birth certificates supplied by the midwives convicted of faking them.
I find it very plausible that Trump’s State Department has revived the program that got Bush’s State Department sued. How about you?
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
That the fucking IRISH overwhelmingly voted out their abortion ban. Pope is the state religious head; (sort of) didn’t do him any good.
Mnemosyne
@The Ancient Randonneur:
G had to work this afternoon, so I’m already back home. There was some talk about seeing Incredibles 2 this evening, but we’re both pretty tired.
As I clarified in a second comment, I’m not running around promoting the tweet as true just yet but, based on past history and current events, I find it plausible. YMMV.
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
Yet they enshrined slavery and its concomitant laws in the same document, just putting off the inevitable for ~60 years
efgoldman
@Mnemosyne:
And that’s really the problem, isn’t it.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@Mnemosyne: You present evidence that that is happening and I will believe it. This is not that and it is covered by the 2011 changes to passport regulations. You want to believe the worst about what’s happening. I get it. It may be happening or will happen, but I don’t see evidence of it. State Dept is not ICE. Can some employee be a jerk about documents. I am sure it has happened, and will happen again. Could they report someone to ICE, sure. But there isn’t a lot of latitude with primary documents that I see and no claim that it is being abused, yet.
JPL
@Mnemosyne: His comments have been helpful. It appears that Trump is depending on paper pushers to determine who are lawful citizens. hmm I wonder who else used a programs to question citizenship.
efgoldman
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
The first thing Rexerson did was dump (thousands??) of career bureaucrats. Certainly not helping any
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): i agree, except it was reported that they are looking at legal citizens to see if there have been errors in their application for citizenship. This case is different but is a logical next step for the asshole, imo.
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
I find it comforting to know that rather large numbers of people don’t look to religion as the end all be all of life any more. It’s become obvious to me for a while now that often religions don’t have the interests of their followers in first or any place in consideration, that all consideration is supposed to be to the religion itself. That the religion is far more important than the living and the lives of the followers. It’s part of the reason I’m an atheist. All my studies of various religions tells me that most of them didn’t start out that way, but they have taken on lives of their own and convinced themselves long ago that people aren’t important, the religion is. Some are less so than others of course and some were founded upon the goal of the needs of the followers but the vast majority are not interested in the betterment of their followers.
schrodingers_cat
When I got my passport last year, I had to send in the original naturalization certificate, which made me a bit nervous but I got both the passport and the certificate back in less than 10 days even though I did not go for the expedited service. The folks in the post office were super helpful too. We even got an ovation from everyone in the post office when she announced that we were new citizens.
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
60 years? More like (260) 242 years. Or am I wrong that we are still dealing with it daily and for some/many not in a positive way?
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@efgoldman: @JPL: Look we have enough battles that are real and documented without trying to fight something that hasn’t even been alleged yet. FUD is not helpful. Stay vigilant but don’t jump on premature assumptions.
Jess
I’m about to make my awkward call to my father. My parents, both damaged and disfunctional, split when I was still a baby. Mom made the right call. My father and I visited about once a year until I turned 17, and then he remarried and vanished for about 35 years. We’re tentatively negotiating a renewed relationship now, but it is awkward and full of landmines. I’m not angry at him, but I am wary of his tendency towards anger, paranoia and rejection. At least he hates Trump. He hates HRC as well, but said he held his nose and voted for her, so that gained him some points with me. I do my best to give him what I can at this late stage in our lives. He’s a lonely guy.
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
I never studied anything. Right around my bar mitzvah, I decided that no all-powerful deity could let the Holocaust happen, and that was the end.
I was referring to the late unpleasantness initiated by the Traitor States in 1860
schrodingers_cat
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): These hyperbolic tweets also keep many GC holders from applying for naturalization. There are between 12 to 14 million GC holders who are eligible to apply for citizenship.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
I renewed my passport last year, as the previous one had expired about 3 years ago, even though I may never need it again. And it arrived back far sooner than I expected. I’d bet that all of your paperwork was in order and as it was also rather recent that probably helped a lot.
Not sure if I’ve said it before but welcome, citizen. It can be a shitty place sometimes but it can also be a better place than where many have come from. I just hope we can get it back to being a better place soon. I hate feeling like I live in a shithole, hateful country. I hate that I served in the military of such a country. I hate even more that I volunteered for that in such a country, even if that does provide me with healthcare. I hate that people are hating in my name.
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
if I had been there, I would have cried seeing people being so nice and supportive.
schrodingers_cat
@debbie: Yes, I was touched. I love this country and its people. The idea of America is bigger than the current person in the WH. And we will endure.
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
Had the same idea about all powerful deities. (There seems to be more than one. Maybe that’s why so many are always at war, my deity is more powerful than your deity. Seems like such a fucking waste of energy when we find as we age that we have a lot less than we used to think.)
I did understand, just saying that we haven’t solved most of the issues all that well. Sure slavery has been outlawed but we still haven’t fixed the issues that led to it in the first place. Maybe that’s not fully possible but it should be. The military has done a not unreasonable job in the last 65 yrs, the country hasn’t.
Mnemosyne
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
But you don’t believe the evidence that has been presented. That’s the point.
It appears that the regulations were changed partially in response to the ACLU lawsuit, because the 2008 regulations were not clear that midwife birth certificates for Latinos from Texas would be automatically rejected.
Again, I find it highly suspicious that, after a lull during the Obama years, Latinos in Texas are once again having their birth certificates questioned. Part of the reason this stuff flies under the radar is that it only happens to certain groups, or only comes from certain passport offices, so the people who say it happened to them are disbelieved because it didn’t happen to everyone.
Maybe the letter is a total fake. And maybe it’s the start of a new campaign by Trump’s administration that they based on the known behavior of the Bush administration, over which the State Dept got sued.
Again: I find this plausible because Republicans have done this exact thing before. Multiple times. I get a little tired of having to point out the patterns over and over and over again.
I do think it’s hyperbolic to say this is supposed to be the first step to getting natural-born citizens declared non-citizens, but it’s not good.
ETA: As I mentioned in a comment above, these kinds of documentation shenanigans are usually used for voter suppression to justify throwing people off the rolls. And we have a big election in less than 5 months
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@schrodingers_cat: Thank you for your faith in us. I hope for all our sakes we live up to it.
tybee
@Phylllis: so did i.
pat
I just got home and tuned in to this thread, which is probably dead by now, but I have to say, if your dad taught you all that, you must have SOMETHING in common that you can talk about!
JPL
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): This doesn’t concern passports and the state department, but TX Monthly had an article about trying to cross legally into our country to ask for amnesty. They closed the bridge that would allow them to do so. When they crossed illegally they charged they with a crime.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: I don’t necessarily disbelieve this story. I am sure bad things are happening, but I want to add my own anecdata of good things too. Most career USCIS officers are not deliberately trying to sabotage applications. I am offering my own experience, as a counter.
ETA: Passports are handled by the State dept not DHS.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@JPL: Like I said, we have real battles to fight. ETA this is one (in case that wasn’t clear)
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: Thanks!
J R in WV
@efgoldman:
That! I was in Sunday School, and their stories from the bible didn’t make sense to me, internally inconsistent! Vacation Bible School saved me from the nonsense… not the plan, I know, but there it was.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
So were all of our parents trying to educate us by letting us discover things for ourselves by showing us the other side or were they trying to indoctrinate us? In my family it went discover for 2 out of 3. The third is a totally lost cause, belongs to a cult.
J R in WV
@efgoldman:
I did everything you could do in a printshop newspaper EXCEPT deliver papers. I was a wee tot in grade school when a crooked politician threatened to throw acid on me on the way to school, as dad wouldn’t stop calling him a crook in print. No more walking around the neighborhood, although once Dad ascertained that I could walk in circles in the woods and always point back toward our house, I was free to be a woods runner…
@Ruckus:
Well, I’m a liberal Democratic volunteer, and my brother had Bush ’04 bumper stickers on all his cars, and NRA life member badges too. He’s not a holy roller, but went along with his wife, I think they’re Methodists, but Southern Methodists, so like Southern Baptists who are allowed to drink, a little bit.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV:
I am the opposite – I can’t find my way out of a paper bag.