Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

You cannot shame the shameless.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Okay, neoliberal running dogs…

Okay, neoliberal running dogs…

by | 172 Comments

This post is in: ,

Make the case for why this is a good idea:

Go!

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

172Comments

  3. 3.

    Baud

    Well, looks like I’m won’t be spending the evening with Balloon Juice.

    Off to solve quantum mechanics.

  6. 6.

    germy

    Dem leaders agreed to lift the debt ceiling for the remainder of Trump’s presidency but reimpose it in 2021

    We will have a Democratic President and Congress by then, and we will end the debt ceiling.

    Dem leaders are lying?

  9. 9.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Been kind of a rough day emotionally here. We went in for a routine vet visit and came out with a months-long treatment plan for heartworm for our little guy (30-lb beagle mix).

    We have no idea what his life was like for his first 18 months. At 18 months he was picked up as a stray in WV and shipped to PA, apparently a common practice as dogs have a better chance of being adopted up north. Right after we got him (last August), he tested positive for three separate intestinal parasites (!), and then a couple months later had another bout of giardia. We thought we were out of the woods, but then this. The vet said he likely had been carrying the larvae since WV, since heartworm is practically unheard of around here, and the timing is about right.

    Dog is in good spirits, as active as ever and doesn’t know he’s an invalid and supposed to be taking it easy. But this is scary stuff. It’s a freakin worm or colony of worms in his freakin heart and lungs.

  10. 10.

    TenguPhule

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    We will have a Democratic President and Congress by then, and we will end the debt ceiling.

    And what happens if we have only one or neither?

  13. 13.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Betty Cracker: My response was partly humorous, but why not? Two years is a VERY long time, plenty of time for a Republican Congress to f**k things up in multiple ways, if that is the unfortunate outcome. So yes, if there is a Republican Congress, they will torment a Democratic President. The means doesn’t matter much.

    I’ve been thinking about that in terms of “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.” The Republicans will do every destructive thing they can. Democrats might as well accept that. One path of accepting is despair and giving up. That’s not my nature, so I’m all for making bold moves.

  14. 14.

    germy

    I’ve been asking around for defenses of this deal and the main rationale being offered is that top Democrats don’t think McConnell will weaponize the debt ceiling against a Democratic president in 2021.

    We saw him block Garland with our own eyes.

    It’s as bad as it looks.

    — Adam Jentleson ?? (@AJentleson) July 22, 2019

    Jentleson is Former Deputy Chief of Staff, Senator Harry Reid

  15. 15.

    TenguPhule

    Nancy Chamberlain: “I declare for an increase in domestic spending that Adolph Trump has promised me will be honored by Joseph McConnell, we have given him everything he wants in terms of military spending, attached no strings requiring him to treat the children in his concentration camps as human beings, given away our power of the purse that was our only remaining weapon in our dry powder arsenal and finally achieved Peace in our Time.”

    If this deal passes as reported, the Democratic Leadership will not be remembered well by history once the bloodshed is over.

  18. 18.

    Mike in Pasadena

    Politics are really a downer these past 2.5 years. All of our Dem presidential candidates need to name Trump’s racism, hatred, and negativity, then preach a Reagan-like morning in America message of positivity, renewal, and patriotism. It’s time to motivate our base to get to the polls. Policy papers and detailed proposals aren’t going to do it. I have never met a Democrat who wasn’t patriotic. Take that adjective back from the racist trump who actually wraps himself in the flag to hide his hatred for what America really is.

  20. 20.

    Scotian

    Near as I can see this is shooting yourself in both feet at best. The GOP have shown themselves to be the party of treachery and still the party of strength in this. From what I’ve seen in your politics strong but wrong is the default winning position and this reinforces that in the GOP’s favour.

    This is preemptive surrender from the Dems yet again. Bad strategy so far as I can tell.

  21. 21.

    Another Scott

    Nancy and Chuck drank Donnie’s milkshake before. She knows what she’s doing.

    TheHill:

    Note, while reading this, that TheHill generally has a RW slant.

    […]

    It’s a significant win for Mnuchin and Pelosi, who have spoken several times over the past two weeks, as well as for Kentucky Republican McConnell, who took a back seat in the talks but had been pushing the White House to accept a two-year deal.

    The deal is likely to face considerable pushback from conservatives and budget hawks, who were already lining up to urge Trump to reject the agreement before it was formally announced Monday.

    The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB), a fiscally conservative advocacy group, said before the deal was announced that it had the potential to be “the worst budget agreement in our nation’s history.”

    “If this deal passes, President Trump will have increased discretionary spending by as much as 22 percent over his first term and enshrine trillion-dollar deficits into law,” said CRFB President Maya MacGuineas.

    […]

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  22. 22.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Andy Duehren @ aduehren
    ? Sen. Leahy, top Democrat on Senate approps, says the budget caps/debt ceiling deal is “not in a position where I can support it.”

  25. 25.

    Brachiator

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    That’s not my nature, so I’m all for making bold moves.

    This is definitely the boldest capitulation that I have ever seen.

  26. 26.

    Betty Cracker

    @Cheryl Rofer: Seems like a bold statement would have been to tell the Trump admin to cram it unless they agreed to abolish the debt ceiling. I get that Democrats are the only party that gives a shit about actual governance. But playing by a different set of rules is starting to feel like a lot like punching ourselves in the face.

  27. 27.

    TenguPhule

    @Another Scott:

    Nancy and Chuck drank Donnie’s milkshake before.

    And he promptly decided to challenge Congress’s power of the purse in response.

    And then double downed on the Concentration camps.

    This, this is worse.

  28. 28.

    TenguPhule

    @Betty Cracker:

    But playing by a different set of rules is starting to feel like a lot like punching ourselves in the face.

    Welcome to the Dark side. We have cookies.

  29. 29.

    TenguPhule

    @Jarod VerBerkmoes:

    Because Republicans are fine shooting the hostage?

    Speed taught us we’re supposed to shoot the hostage first in a non-vital area. Then shoot the hostage takers in a vital area.

  30. 30.

    germy

    Voice of sanity:

    With an economy this vulnerable, we need to reduce the odds of the potential shocks that can send us into another downturn. That means Congress should eliminate the debt ceiling & the Trump administration should replace its trade-war-by-tweet with China with a coherent strategy.— Elizabeth Warren (@ewarren) July 22, 2019

  31. 31.

    Starfish

    @Barbara: Thank goodness for the people of VA and PA because if y’all did not adopt the dogs, they would all be living at John Cole’s house.

  32. 32.

    Cacti

    @TenguPhule:

    Speed taught us we’re supposed to shoot the hostage first in a non-vital area. Then shoot the hostage takers in a vital area.

    The full faith and credit of the US government is not a non-vital area. It’s about as vital as an area gets.

  33. 33.

    TenguPhule

    @germy:

    With an economy this vulnerable, we need to reduce the odds of the potential shocks that can send us into another downturn.

    Why? The American public needs to experience the Full Trump Economy good and hard.

  34. 34.

    Brachiator

    @Another Scott:

    The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB), a fiscally conservative advocacy group, said before the deal was announced that it had the potential to be “the worst budget agreement in our nation’s history.”

    Interesting crocodile tears. These idiots don’t mind a huge decrease in defense spending or how tariffs screw up the economy and the budget.

    And none of this prevents Trump from whining about his Wall or threatening cuts to essential programs.

  35. 35.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Betty Cracker: I may be missing something, but I just don’t see this as the disaster that our commentariat is making it. Eliminating fights over the debt ceiling until two years in the unknown future? We’ve got other things to do. The Republicans aren’t going to eliminate the debt ceiling out of the goodness of their hearts, and the Democrats don’t have enough leverage to make them.

    The debt ceiling is a genuine danger, and Trump and his minions are stupid enough to break the good faith and credit of the United States by accident or malice. Get that out of the way, even if only for a limited time. Not a fight we need now.

  36. 36.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Another Scott:

    Nancy and Chuck drank Donnie’s milkshake before. She knows what she’s doing.

    Yeah, that’s where I am with this. I’m inherently suspicious of all stories whose conclusion is “therefore we should all pile on Pelosi”.

    We’re so damned ready to set up the circular firing squad at a moment’s notice, and our enemies domestic and foreign know it and play us like suckers every damned time.

    Maybe this is a big mistake, maybe it’s not. But I’m not playing the “let’s shoot Nancy” game. I’m just not.

  37. 37.

    Mike Adamson

    Brutal in my opinion. Why the Democratic leadership thinks that helping the President now will lead to further cooperation is beyond me.

  38. 38.

    germy

    The Trump admin’s new “expedited removal” rule should terrify us all. It will allow ICE officers to approach ANYBODY in the U.S. (w/o probable cause) & demand they prove they’re a citizen or have been in the US for 2 years. If they can’t, they’re deported. No trial, no hearing.
    — Rep. Diana DeGette (@RepDianaDeGette) July 22, 2019

  39. 39.

    lumpkin

    At this point I must reluctantly, but for the sake of my remaining sanity give up all hope that the democrat party will do anything to stop the destruction of the country. Complicit or feckless? Doesn’t matter does it.

  40. 40.

    TenguPhule

    @germy:

    The Trump admin’s new “expedited removal” rule should terrify us all. It will allow ICE officers to approach ANYBODY in the U.S. (w/o probable cause) & demand they prove they’re a citizen or have been in the US for 2 years. If they can’t, they’re deported. No trial, no hearing.

    I’m sure glad we just decided to give them the money to do this for the next two years, no questions asked. //s

  42. 42.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Cheryl Rofer: I agree. Removing these fights for the next few years is a good thing and we didnt give up a ton in return. This was always going to be a shit sandwich in a lot of ways, and this is relatively benign and has some good points.

  43. 43.

    West of the Rockies

    Um, because if Uncle Joe is prez, he can reach across the aisle and grope–I mean work with his… Um, yeah, I got nothing.

  44. 44.

    Raven

    “I can’t imagine anybody ever even thinking of using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge,” Mr. Trump said on Friday. “We can never play with it.”

  47. 47.

    MisterForkbeard

    @lumpkin: Yes, Democrats are just as bad as Republicans because they made a deal to get some limited good and had to agree to some non optimal stuff in order to get that.

    Respectfully fuck off, sir.

  48. 48.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Me three. Pelosi and Schumer held fast when many of the same brave online liberals on this blog and elsewhere who are endlessly complaining about Pelosi were ready to throw legal immigrants under the bus for a dubious DACA deal in 2017. Remember that whole shit-hole countries fracas.

  49. 49.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Besides, if we react to every development, big or small, with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, it tells the Republicans that they’re owning the liberals and demoralizes our own side. Get over it and move on. There are much more important things to do.

  50. 50.

    Wapiti

    @Cheryl Rofer: I think the debt ceiling has been a long-term recurring problem, but why not just get rid of it? Did Trump think he needed it after 2020 to reign himself in?

  51. 51.

    Mary G

    Kevin Drum in MoJo: Today’s Budget Deal Is Fine:

    Discretionary spending has been declining steadily for four decades, interrupted only by the Iraq War and the Great Recession. The new budget deal will keep it at about 6 percent of GDP, the same as it was in 2000 and far less than it was in 1980. This is hardly a picture of a budget that’s skyrocketing out of control.

    If the hawks want to gripe about mandatory spending—primarily Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other social welfare programs—that’s fine. Gripe away. But today’s budget deal has nothing to do with that. It’s solely about discretionary spending levels, and there’s simply no reason to think either that discretionary spending is a big problem or that today’s deal will make it into one.

  53. 53.

    Brachiator

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Yeah, that’s where I am with this. I’m inherently suspicious of all stories whose conclusion is “therefore we should all pile on Pelosi”.

    Can’t I say that this is a bad idea without either cheering or bashing Pelosi?

    The problem is that the Republcans are neither rational nor honest. Maybe this puts the Democrats at a disadvantage no matter what they do, but I’m not sure that the Democrats are even putting up a fight.

  54. 54.

    lamh36

    Nope…not gonna talk bout that …

    Gonna talk about something else instead.

    I’m going back to San Franciso in September. I just couldn’t pass up that $150 RT flight deal from Southwest. Usually NOLA to SFO is like $300+ round trip! That’s a 50% difference. Then I had enough points for one way of the trip, so I basically paid $86 for RT!!!

    But alrieady…woo sah…this is why I travel solo…I actually prefer to have someone with me cause I love experiencing travel with another person who I can automatically talk bout stuff with.

    But my sister…I don’t know why I keep on travelling with tha one…

    So, SW had a great price on flight to SFO. The flight was good priced, but the hotels for that time are a bit pricey…but with 3 other fam also wanted to go…so cool with 4 folks now…at the very least you can still get a good room split 4 ways.

    As I said, I was gonna go by myself anyway, but since they wanted to go too, I told them ok, if ya’ll can afford bout 1/2 the price, then I still can pay 1/2 cause I was planning to go by myself anyway…so this way, I still save money…and they can afford it too.

    Still, I don’t want to pay too much either…so I’m looking for good reviews on Trip Advisor, good location, and reasonable price. Course, if the 3 of 4 can’t barely afford $100 a night, then that gonna already lower the # of stars for the hotel, unless at least 1/2 can pay more.

    So anyway, sister mentioned this one place, there is one place $148 a night, but its on the other side of the bay…NOT even Oakland…so you’ll spend more of ur time on PT just trying to get to the bay to reach the sites.

    So I found another hotel, a Comfort Inn, the price is more a night, but it’s a much better location, actually near the Wharf/Pier, and PT is right there if you don’t want to walk to farther sites… and closer to stuff so that even Lfyt/Uber is cheaper…

    My sister was like…what about the $148 hotel.. then was like “are there better rooms than Comfort Inn” ? ….BISH.

    First of all, the Comfort Inn and the other hotel mentioned has the EXACT SAME review rating on Trip Advisor, and even Google Review gave it better than avg ratings (and Google Review HATES every damn thing),plus with the split cost…it’s still be cheap for each person with a better location.

    I finally had to screenshot google maps cause she was getting on my last darn nerves… like…here is the comfort in…notice the location… here is the hotel you chose….notice that location…

    Finally just had to tell her…If you can find a hotel w/better than avg reviews in a good location that not basically in Oakland…that’s also a good price just let me know

  55. 55.

    raven

    Opinions
    Trump becomes king of the cave
    Add to list

    President Trump at the White House on July 17. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)

    By Dana Milbank
    Columnist
    July 22 at 6:22 PM
    Back in the 1980s, Donald Trump published his seminal business treatise, “The Art of the Deal.” Should he write a sequel about his presidency, he might accurately title it “The Art of the Cave.”

    In recent weeks, President Trump’s record has been a cornucopia of climbdowns. Not since the Paleolithic Period, perhaps, has a man had quite so much day-to-day caving experience.

    The White House had demanded $150 billion in cuts as part of current budget talks. But on Monday evening, Trump agreed to a deal that raised spending by $320 billion. The Post’s Damian Paletta and Erica Werner labeled it a “significant retreat” for Trump, who got some accounting changes “that likely won’t constrain any future spending.”

  57. 57.

    Ruckus

    @germy:
    Had an almost impossible time agreeing with any thing any republican wants to do, but especially shit for brains and his sidekick KY’s own shit for brains. But the debt ceiling has always been a disaster so maybe this temp respite will, might, is possibly be good for the country? Yeah I know it isn’t obviously good, or even unobviously good but EW seems to be pretty smart about the economy and I trust Nancy P, if none of the rest of the leaders so……

  58. 58.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Wapiti: The Republicans have found the debt ceiling to be a useful tool in their blackmail toolbox. “Do as we say, or we’ll wreck the government.” The rational thing to do is to eliminate it – other nations don’t have an equivalent. But the Republicans like their terror tools.

  59. 59.

    HalfAssedHomesteader

    At this point it would almost be a relief if Chuck & Nancy just sobbed before the cameras, “you just don’t understand how powerless we are against the oligarchy!”

  60. 60.

    TenguPhule

    @raven:

    . But on Monday evening, Trump agreed to a deal that raised spending by $320 billion.

    Trump is going to promise whatever he wants to get a sucker to sign a deal with him. How has this worked out for the other parties again?

  61. 61.

    RKern

    The one potential silver lining: it clears the deck for impeachment. I have no illusions that Pelosi is secretly in favor of impeachment, but she could be seeing that might become inevitable in her caucus, especially after Mueller’s testimony. Can you imagine the kind of global damage Trump could do if we need to raise the debt ceiling while an impeachment inquiry is in progress?

  65. 65.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Cheryl Rofer: Besides, if we react to every development, big or small, with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, it tells the Republicans that they’re owning the liberals and demoralizes our own side. Get over it and move on. There are much more important things to do.

    I believe internet traditions dictate that I type: THIS!, though I think now I should be using some finger-pointing or thumbs up emoji.

  67. 67.

    TenguPhule

    @RKern:

    Can you imagine the kind of global damage Trump could do if we need to raise the debt ceiling while an impeachment inquiry is in progress?

    Can you imagine what happens if Republicans threaten to blow up the debt ceiling in 2021 if Democrats dare to impeach Trump? This is the worst of both worlds.

    If you’re going to suspend the debt ceiling, SUSPEND IT ENTIRELY. Instead it gives Republicans a clear playing field and assuming we win next year, comes back to bite us immediately when all our energy would be needed to fucking fix all the broken shit.

  68. 68.

    raven

    @Mnemosyne: Yep, didn’t he pull the rug like that on the last shutdown? That little weasel shit Rand Paul can fuck this up too, right?

  69. 69.

    Betty Cracker

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Get over it and move on

    Respectfully, fuck that bullshit. Here’s the rare instance where Democrats actually have some goddamned leverage, and we’re supposed to keep our powder dry here too?

    Not even putting up a real fight here signals a lack of understanding about the seriousness and ruthlessness of the opposition we face.

  72. 72.

    TenguPhule

    @Betty Cracker:

    Not even putting up a real fight here signals a lack of understanding about the seriousness and ruthlessness of the opposition we face.

    What you said.

  73. 73.

    Raven

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, a Republican, called the deal a “huge mistake” because it gets rid of automatic spending cuts.

    “It scraps the sequester, which is a huge mistake,” Paul told Fox News. “It would be a huge mistake if the Republican leadership agrees to this.”

  74. 74.

    Leto

    The White House originally wanted to offset the new spending with about $150 billion in cuts. But the deal would be offset by only about $77 billion, according to a congressional aide. Negotiators are considering extending automatic cuts to Medicare and new Customs and Border Protection fees to help pay for it.

    So we’re considering cutting funding for seniors? Because if that goes through (extending cuts to Medicare) that’s what we’re going to be hammered with. Also I thought cuts to SS and Medicare were non-starters? Let me know what I’m missing.

  75. 75.

    eemom

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    We will have a Democratic President and Congress by then, and we will end the debt ceiling.

    You’re some kind of “expert,” right? Please tell me you are kidding.

  76. 76.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Brachiator:

    Can’t I say that this is a bad idea without either cheering or bashing Pelosi?

    Sure. Arguing within the party is healthy. I think the argument about when to start impeachment hearings is healthy. I think true democracy is inherently noisy.

    But as soon as the argument becomes “See? We should dump Pelosi” my troll alarm goes into the red and I lose interest.

  77. 77.

    pinacacci

    I’m in the “not so bad” camp. We (rightly) shrieked like banshees when the republicans held the debt ceiling hostage, because it shouldn’t be held hostage. It benefits exactly nobody to refuse to raise it. I think leadership is doubling down that there will be a big, big blue wave, as in a just world, there will be. Of course, world ain’t just, thus rending of garments. I am still clinging to hope but I’m not buying shares in it.

  78. 78.

    TenguPhule

    @Leto:

    new Customs and Border Protection fees

    Oh, we’re going to make the Concentration camp inmates pay for their own internment and disposal now and turn a tidy profit on it. //

    JFC, are we all Good Germans now?

  79. 79.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Betty Cracker: Just saying, you have the full throated support of Tengu on this. While that doesnt mean it’s the wrong take, he’s known for being overly pessimistic and apocalyptic.

    I don’t think we had a ton of leverage here. Not without causing immense amounts of damage. And in return for the budget and debt ceiling work authorization we got a temporary reprieve during campaign season, some additional domestic spending after Trump demanded cuts instead.

    In a situation where we didnt have a lot of leverage without causing lots of damage, we avoided doing that damage and got some positive stuff out of it. It’s not a disaster in my view.

  81. 81.

    J R in WV

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    “Been kind of a rough day emotionally here. We went in for a routine vet visit and came out with a months-long treatment plan for heartworm for our little guy (30-lb beagle mix).”

    Sorry for your little beagle’s health issue. I spent all day having an annual physical, which I passed pretty well.

    We adopted a very sweet rescue from our vet many years ago. She spent 9 months in the vet kennel being treated for heartworm, made a full recovery, after we adopted her and brought her to our farm, she had a wonderful life full of running in the woods with our other dogs.

    So it isn’t a life long invalid condition at all. Try to keep your beagle as quiet as possible during treatment… sounds like your vet as a good grip on what to do. Then keep you little guy on heartworm preventative. Seems like rural WV has everything, we recently discovered Lone Star Ticks here, which have a whole ‘nother set of transmissible diseases on top of the native ticks.

    Best of luck — keep us posted on how the pupper does!!

  82. 82.

    TenguPhule

    @MisterForkbeard:

    And in return for the budget and debt ceiling work authorization we got a temporary reprieve during campaign season, some additional domestic spending after Trump demanded cuts instead.

    And I’m sure every contractor who signed a deal with Trump thought they had made a good deal with him.

    Then they started to count their fingers, toes, relatives…..

  84. 84.

    eemom

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Get over it and move on. There are much more important things to do.

    Who is doing them??

    Christ, we are really in the last act of Invasion of the Body Snatchers here.

    And I really do need to get out of here. This is some seriously sick, delusional shit.

  86. 86.

    J R in WV

    @J R in WV:

    To add to my story, our rescue was named Happy after a few days, because she was so happy to be free on the farm! Edit wouldn’t let me add this note to the happy ending story.

  89. 89.

    Leto

    @TenguPhule: It’s already a practice that if the detainees families don’t send money, they don’t eat. So yeah, that part is already covered. I’m sure those “fees” will be for like… water, lights turned off, cell with only 150 instead of 500 detainees… upgrades, if you will.

  90. 90.

    MisterForkbeard

    @TenguPhule: Okay.

    How do you think Trump magically obviates a signed law on the budget and debt ceiling?

    If you’re just saying he’d ignore the law there, then okay. Because then we should never make any agreement or pass any Bill’s, which is obviously stupid for other reasons.

  91. 91.

    TenguPhule

    @eemom:

    Christ, we are really in the last act of Invasion of the Body Snatchers here.

    And worse yet, its the godawful remake.

  92. 92.

    guachi

    Personally, I think they should have completely eliminated the stupid debt ceiling. Using it as leverage, even if the other side does it, is terrible legislating.

  93. 93.

    Matt

    @germy:

    I’ve been asking around for defenses of this deal and the main rationale being offered is that top Democrats don’t think McConnell will weaponize the debt ceiling against a Democratic president in 2021.

    Top Democrats need to resign FFS. They’re either too stupid to have their jobs, or they’re liars.

  94. 94.

    TenguPhule

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Because then we should never make any agreement or pass any Bill’s, which is obviously stupid for other reasons.

    The whole point of Democrats controlling the House was to stop Republicans from passing bills and basically doing all the fucked up shit they were doing with control of all branches of government.

  95. 95.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @lamh36: There’s a B & B we like in Berkeley, nice area but not super close to San Francisco. Short bus ride to the BART, but it made sense for us because we like the Berkeley area as well as SF and spent half our time in Berkeley last time we were out that way.

    Our mistake was flying out of SFO. That’s a hell of a long ride. Oakland would have been a lot easier.

    If you’re focusing on San Francisco, as most tourists probably want to, you should probably stay in the city. Within the city of San Francisco I think we’ve found “decent” prices (that’s a relative thing in comparison to the sticker shock you might be getting) around Union Square.

    Just make sure you’re not below Market Street. I think that’s the area called the Tenderloin and it can be a little iffy.

  97. 97.

    Adam L Silverman

    There is no good explanation or justification for this. The Democrats control one half of one branch of the US Federal government. The only leverage they have comes from that. Everything they do should be done asymmetrically, leveraging what little power they have for maximum effect. In this case they had the ability to jam the GOP majority Senate and the President. They could have passed a bill that either eliminated the debt ceiling entirely, that raised it till just before the presidential election in 2020 thereby making it a problem for the President right before the election, or raised it until 2022 or 2023, and that also had their preferred funding levels/caps for the next fiscal year. Then they should have adjourned and left town for their August recess/vacation and left the entire thing in McConnell’s and the President’s hands. They could either pass the House bill and then sign it or default on the debt and have the government shut down on October 1st. And they should have flooded the news media and social media zone and saturated it with the message that the House did their work and now it was up to McConnell’s do nothing GOP majority Senate and the do nothing but golf President to do their work. And just hammer that message over and over and over.

    That’s what should have been done. This, as Jentleson has pointed out, is not what happened. It is also strategically stupid. When you manage to actually have leverage, especially when you have very limited power, you utilize it for effect. The Democratic leadership passed a minimum wage increase that is DOA because McConnell won’t touch it. Most Americans will never know, and as a result they won’t care, that the Democratic majority House did this because they’re not MSNBC junkies and because it was dead before they ever took the House vote. But the debt ceiling increase and a budget agreement/appropriations for FY 2020 legislation is different. It is one of the few places where the Democrats had leverage. And they failed to use it. The Democratic Leadership appears to be working off of the strategic wisdom of Major General George B. McLellan. At this point I’m not sure it would have made a damn bit of difference if the Republicans had maintained their majority in the House.

  98. 98.

    MobiusKlein

    Keeping the lights on has value. Not having two wrecking ball parties has value.

  99. 99.

    lamh36

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Oh, I’ve been to SF like 3x before. All 3x were solo trips.

    In fact, I actually almost moved to SF about 3-4 years ago…but the salary fell through and just wasn’t enough for me to move half way cross the country.

    And yep…each time I stayed I was in the city.

  100. 100.

    eemom

    @RAVEN:

    Look, dude, YOU are acting like an idiot here. I kind of thought you were better than the LALALA I can’t hear you herd of sheep stampeding to the slaughter.

  101. 101.

    TenguPhule

    @Adam L Silverman:

    At this point I’m not sure it would have made a damn bit of difference if the Republicans had maintained their majority in the House.

    We got a vote of rebuke against Trump for insulting Democratic members of the House.

    I’m sure this will comfort someone somewhere.

  103. 103.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @eemom: have you tried a stool softener? maybe prune juice ?

    Who’s you House representative?

  104. 104.

    MisterForkbeard

    @TenguPhule: Again, this is wrong. The Democrats can’t make law on their own. It REQUIRES Trump and McConnell to agree.

    So your choices are to make a deal (and this is a pretty good one. Didnt give much away, and doesnt cost much other than the opportunity to do better… which the Republicans wouldnt have agreed to anyway)… or to just say fuck it and never pass anything, meaning we blow through the debt ceiling and cause massive harm.

    There you go. Pick one.

  105. 105.

    RAVEN

    @TenguPhule: @TenguPhule: I’ll un-pie you long enough to note your loudmouth fucking ass wasn’t around when we were raising money last night. You’re a fucking blight.

    back in the filter

  106. 106.

    RAVEN

    @eemom: What the fuck are you talking about? This Tengu motherfucker has dominated very evening thread for months. I don’t even give a shit about this budget deal bullshit

  107. 107.

    TenguPhule

    @MisterForkbeard:

    So your choices are to make a deal (and this is a pretty good one. Didnt give much away, and doesnt cost much other than the opportunity to do better… which the Republicans wouldnt have agreed to anyway)… or to just say fuck it and never pass anything, meaning we blow through the debt ceiling and cause massive harm.

    See Adam’s post at @97. Pass the Democratic version, throw it to McConnell, if they default its HIS FUCKING FAULT. Instead House and Senate Democratic Leadership preemptively surrendered the last remaining Constitutional power they had left.

  108. 108.

    Barbara

    @MisterForkbeard: My sentiment as well – not to mention that Dems will never win by holding the debt ceiling hostage. We are going to be emotionally destitute if we keep up this level of infighting.

  109. 109.

    sukabi

    My 3 yo grand daughter’s new favorite word is retard. Can’t get her to stop saying it…it’s an applicable word for the deal makers on the d side.

  111. 111.

    Barry

    At this point f*ck Pelosi. No, she both does not know what she’s doing, and she’d being played by f-ing Trump and f-ing McConnel.

  112. 112.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Goddamn some of you sound like a bunch of firebaggers. Go out and DO something that makes a difference.

  114. 114.

    Fair Economist

    Pelosi and Schumer got 320 billion dollars of spending the Republicans didn’t want, in return for the same kind of agreement on the ceiling McConnell gave in 2015 for nothing. That’s pretty impressive.

  116. 116.

    J R in WV

    @Josie:

    I’m a bit suspicious. Note the commenter’s use of “democrat party” instead of “democratic party.”

    You did great noticing that telltale sigh of a RWNJ — not knowing how to spell the name of their opposition party.

  117. 117.

    Keith P.

    Maybe they figure that the conservatives will torpedo the bill before it ever hits Trump’s desk. Otherwise, I have no idea what the thinking here is (the spending would have to be so high to be attractive that it would *have* to turn the GOP against it en masse)

  119. 119.

    Fair Economist

    @Adam L Silverman:

    At this point I’m not sure it would have made a damn bit of difference if the Republicans had maintained their majority in the House.

    Are you serious? The Republicans wanted to cut 130 billion; the Democrats got an increase of 320 billion. The federal budget would have been cut by 500 billion dollars, in ways we don’t want, if the Democrats hadn’t gotten the House. Surely you know how much of a disaster that would have been, averted only because we got the House.

  121. 121.

    Procopius

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    The rational thing to do is to eliminate it – other nations don’t have an equivalent. But the Republicans like their terror tools.

    Yes. Do you remember who brought us PAYGO? Hint: their initials start with DLC.
    Actually, on further reflection, I agree that two years without another threat of the debt ceiling is good value, and they probably could not have gotten that without the time limit, so OK, but the idea that the New Democrats and Blue Dogs have suddenly become amenable to deficit spending is risible. They, by the way, are why Pelosi if forced to withhold impeachment.

  123. 123.

    Scotian

    @RAVEN:

    Speaking as the person the money was being raised for, FUCK RIGHT OFF! That was NOT COOL, and I do not appreciate you using my dying to score cheap shots with!

    I disagree with Tengu almost always, dislike some of the way he argues, but what you just did was truly disgusting. You owe him, me and everyone else here an apology for that in my opinion.

    I can’t believe I saw something like that here, you demeaned us all
    Did you even take a second to consider how I might be made to feel being so used by you for what appears to be some sort of juvenile vendetta? Somehow I rather doubt it.

    ALL: Sorry about the intensity of the reaction, but this is NOT something I will let be done to me.

  125. 125.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Fair Economist: I do. But I’m still not sure this agreement is a good one. They’ve once again, for the third time since 2001, allowed the Republicans to plant a time bomb. The previous two times that time bomb blew up in a Democratic president’s, Obama’s, face.

  127. 127.

    Elizabelle

    @RAVEN: Glad to see you have that commenter pied. Me too, for quite some time, and I am happier for it. Who doesn’t like talk of apples and cinnamon and …

  132. 132.

    pinacacci

    how does the pie filter work? like if you pie a person you can’t see their comments, or does the pied person not see anything but pie comments, help me out I am curious and paranoid. So many subtexts here all the time.

  133. 133.

    eemom

    @Barbara: @O. Felix Culpa:

    I’ve finally figured out what afflicts the self proclaimed anti-infighting, anti-“purity,” anti-firebagger, can’t we all just get along crowd.

    You people are stuck in a time warp back in 2009, when a good man was the Democratic president and the Democratic party controlled Congress, and the factions you are referring to were impeding actual progress being made. Likewise you’re still in 2016, when the Bernouts and Jill Steins and Susan Sarandons helped get us to the hellhole we’re living in now.

    WAKE THE FUCK UP. We’re someplace different now. I am not going to describe again the thousands of agonizingly obvious ways in which this place differs from those, but the — again, agonizingly obvious — deal is this: we elected a Democratic majority in the House to fucking stand up to this nakedly fascist wannabe and his agenda, not to roll over and play dead, and that “leadership” has fucking betrayed us. Calling that out does not make us puritards, or fire baggers, or circular firesquad shooters. Nor does your pathetic apologism for the traitors, and still more pathetic hope for some 2020 miracle that the craven cowardice of this “leadership” is every day making less likely, make you the voice of reason.

  135. 135.

    James E Powell

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It is also strategically stupid. When you manage to actually have leverage, especially when you have very limited power, you utilize it for effect.

    This is what I’ve been saying since January. I have no idea what goes on inside the rooms. I don’t blame Pelosi. I do suspect the primary culprits are the Democratic donor & consultant class. They are okay with Democrats winning, but they most definitely do not want any lefty shit and they fully intend to keep their tax cuts.

    The Democrats running for president ought to be taking note of this because they have no chance of winning with a demoralized and divided Democratic base.

  137. 137.

    James E Powell

    @MobiusKlein:

    Keeping the lights on has value. Not having two wrecking ball parties has value.

    Yes there is value to those things. The value is all abstract and will not produce favorable election results.

  138. 138.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @eemom: Sorry, you don’t know me and you don’t know my level of awakeness or activism. I’m working full-time in the trenches as a volunteer, you know, getting shit done. What have you done lately?

  141. 141.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @MisterForkbeard:

    I don’t think we had a ton of leverage here. Not without causing immense amounts of damage. And in return for the budget and debt ceiling work authorization we got a temporary reprieve during campaign season, some additional domestic spending after Trump demanded cuts instead.

    In a situation where we didnt have a lot of leverage without causing lots of damage, we avoided doing that damage and got some positive stuff out of it. It’s not a disaster in my view.

    It’s just like with Obama. Everyone seems to assume that Democrats in Washington have more political leverage than they do, and then drag them for it.

    Dems have limited leverage because Washington DC is wired for Republicans, especially the mainstream media when it comes to politics, and has been since Reagan’s domination of political culture in the 1980s was followed by Rush L and talk radio in the 1990s.

    This is a better outcome for the country than it could have been. But let’s all keep up the great Monday-morning-QB’ing, ‘kay? It’s sure to help us big time, come next November.

  142. 142.

    Adam L Silverman

    @James E Powell: I’m just as frustrated as everyone else. And that came out in that comment. I can say as a professional, who has taught strategy to senior leaders, as a professional who has served in senior positions helping to develop strategy and policy, and as a professional whose specialty is low intensity warfare (everything from revolution to terrorism as type of war and everything from asymmetric to irregular to unconventional for nature of war), I’m increasingly frustrated by what appears to not be an effective strategy. I am, of course, outside looking in.

  144. 144.

    Fair Economist

    The net shift in spending here is comparable to the Obama stimulus (not as large, but getting there). This is a major policy win. That money is going to fund things like Medicaid, food stamps, and HUD. I don’t know about the other bloggers here, but I’m damn happy that millions will get medical, something to eat, and a place to live, as a result of Pelosi’s negotiations.

  145. 145.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Fair Economist: Actually, the money will be appropriated for those things. The administration will decide whether to or not to actually spend the money.

  146. 146.

    Fair Economist

    @Adam L Silverman: The administration hasn’t been holding back expenditures on any of those things and they certainly aren’t going to start during an election campaign.

  147. 147.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @O. Felix Culpa: And if you need to know what shit is getting done, here’s a partial list: recruiting and training grassroots organizers for 2020; recruiting and training voter registrars and actively registering voters; organizing a Lights for Liberty vigil to advocate for migrants and refugees on our borders; building alliances with like-minded organizations on issues such as immigrant rights, climate change, and labor; facilitating forums on topics ranging from an independent judiciary to treatment of nuclear waste in our state to featuring local candidates in order to retain and strengthen Democratic control at the local, county, and state levels; organizing Democratic participation in local Pride and other parades with clear value-statement messages, so people SEE what we stand for; working with local legislators to pass good legislation; mending bridges with disaffected ethnic groups so that we stand united in 2020; raising money so we can afford to do all this stuff. That’s for starters. So fuck it with the keyboard commandos. This shit is hard work. You should try it some time.

  148. 148.

    Mainmata

    If the Democrats get the trifecta in 2020, then they should just dispense with the debt limit, which has been just a right wing political tool for a long time. Should the Dems get the presidency but not the senate, just veto any McConnell bullshit on this issue. This is all out warfare now.

  149. 149.

    AnotherBruce

    @germy: This is why Democrats get defeated. The perspective is that Democrats will not win the Senate. And or, will not defeat Mitch McConnell in his upcoming race. I keep getting negative bullshit that has not happened when I read this crap. Goddamn it I’m waiting for some Demos to get a mean streak, and start calling these Nazis for what they are.

  153. 153.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Adam L Silverman: In most cases, the administration is required to spend the money for what Congress says it is for. I recognize that low-level games have been played in the past and that Trump has kicked the game board over, but the law says otherwise.

  155. 155.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Adam L Silverman: I too find deficiencies in the strategy. But this one seems simple: Declare victory. Trump does it all the time – I have a running comment on Twitter about how he totally ignores the reality of the situation with North Korea to tell himself and everyone else that he is winning.

    There’s actually basis here for declaring a win by the Democrats, as Fair Economist is saying. Let’s do it. (And I would be pleased if Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic leaders would do it – that would be much more effective than action by an almost-top-10,000 blog!)

  156. 156.

    Another Scott

    @Adam L Silverman: The Pelosi-Schumer joint statement:

    Importantly, Democrats have achieved an agreement that permanently ends the threat of the sequester. We are pleased that the Administration has finally agreed to join Democrats in ending these devastating cuts, which have threatened our investments to keep America Number One in the global economy and to ensure our national security.

    We know the sequester has impacted you personally at least once. I would have thought that you would be happy that it’s gone now.

    She got a good agreement. Could she have gotten more? I’m not so sure. Last Wednesday (I think it was) she said that they needed to have an agreement by last Friday to write the bill and get it to the Senate. Instead, it dragged out until today. There was obviously a bunch of haggling back and forth to have it drag out. If she and Chuck were to roll over, they would have done it days ago.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  157. 157.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Another Scott: Until or unless they actually repeal the Budget Control Act and the President signs the repeal into law, they have not ended the threat of the sequester. The sequester has been waived for the DOD and the Services and the Intel communities for the better part of the past four or five years and it hasn’t made a damn bit of difference. They all function as if the caps are still in place when it is convenient for them.

    And I’ve been bitten by the sequester several times over the past five years. I’ve lost at least three job opportunities because of the sequester.

  159. 159.

    Mike in NC

    @Adam L Silverman:In fairness, he did design a saddle that was used from the Civil War until the abolition of the US Army’s horse cavalry in the middle of WW2.

  160. 160.

    Ruckus

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I don’t think it matters if we are pissed off or not. Because I’d bet every one here is pissed enough that the tops of our heads are about to open up in a shower of blood and brains.
    I think I can say with almost 100% agreement that we are all pissed off.
    The question is do we work to change it in a manner that might work or do we find a stick of dynamite, stick it up our butts and light the fuse? Will that help at all?
    No? I don’t think so at all.
    We all have to think with the brains our parents created, not the ones we found in the gumball machine. You are an expert in warfare among civilian populations or at least close to that. So what is the first thing, dive right in and blow everything up? No? I didn’t think you’d want to do the GWB/Dick Cheney waltz, it wasn’t very productive and we are still killing people and spending a shit ton over 1 1/2 decades later.
    Be a pissed of citizen, think like an expert. Because the experts are thinking about how this works, what kind of strategy might be effective and what hasn’t worked in 20 yrs.

  161. 161.

    Bill Arnold

    @MisterForkbeard:

    I don’t think we had a ton of leverage here. Not without causing immense amounts of damage.

    If there were not plausible Democratic threats to allow Mnunchin’s/Trump’s tax-cuts-that-will-pay-for-themselves to inflict that damage, then an available lever was not used.
    They should have held out for getting rid of the debt ceiling entirely IMO. Republicans have demonstrated an eagerness to use it as a lever, as Adam at 97 says.
    TBH news reports are not clear on what “suspension of the debt ceiling” means. What e.g. if there is a downturn that starts between now and July 2021 and unexpectedly increases the deficit? Have looked at a half dozen articles and none are clear on this.

  162. 162.

    burnspbesq

    @TenguPhule:

    Advocating making the innocent suffer to gain political advantage. How can you claim to be morally superior to Stephen Miller?

  163. 163.

    Gvg

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t see the leverage you assume. My opinion is the republican politicians have degenerated in intelligence so much that they actually don’t understand how valuable in real money the United States full faith and credit is to everyone in this country, rich and poor.They don’t know how long it took to build us to that point. A lot of people seem to think money and a stable economy and contract enforcement plus things like the lack of bandits to rob people buying and selling, just grew on trees or fell out of the sky by magic and it will just keep going forever. Republicans believe their own bullshit. A generation ago, it was a con, and the governing class knew better, but spouted words like this cynically. Now the conned got elected and don’t know better than to crash the debt ceiling.
    This is a serious hostage we can’t afford to risk. That means we don’t have any leverage.
    Democrats ONLY control 1 house of the government and the other two are run by malignant morons. We have to survive, to have a real chance to do anything. At this point, limit damage is good, but it doesn’t mean NO damage. That isn’t actually possible right now. Yes it really is discouraging.
    I never used to think about how to negotiate with idiots. It is surprisingly hard to even think of a way. I actually think the democratic leaders are smarter than I am, because at this point I would just be screaming at the republican leaders if I had to talk to them. The idiocy of course predatesTrump or even Obama.
    The votes to end the debt ceiling aren’t there in the Senate. I actually think the invention of this concept should be looked at as an early warning. I know it was routinely raised for long before Bush but it should never have been created.

  164. 164.

    Another Scott

    @Bill Arnold: The bill hasn’t been written yet, so we only have the briefest descriptions about what is going to be in it. We’ll know more in a day or two.

    Since the House is writing the bill, I think we should have a little bit of confidence that Nancy’s team is going to do a good job.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  165. 165.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    For the people saying Democrats aren’t fighting, didn’t they shut down the government a few months ago to stop Dump’s racist wall.

    I know January was 50 lifetimes ago, but I still remember watching it on my flicking black and white Zenith, while drinking a tall, delicious glass of Tang, and Huntley and Brinkley said the rout was a big fucking deal.

  168. 168.

    Another Scott

    Speaking of animals, Popehat is on vacation with his family in Costa Rica (IIRC). Today they visited an animal sanctuary. Twitter:

    Guide: “These monkeys are pretty old. So they sleep most of the day. They only get excited when there’s food.”

    My kids: [all look at me]

    Me: y’all can go straight to Hell

    rofl.

    ‘night everyone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  169. 169.

    Bill Arnold

    @Another Scott:
    Thanks! Looks like the Senate has opportunities to blow it up and some Senate Republicans will certainly try. The debt limit bit is “The debt limit will be suspended for two years, through July 31, 2021”, which is not yet clear.
    This (point 7) looks important. The Republicans (especially the Senate) are on-notice that partisan demands will blow this agreement up. (Same for Democrats.)

    Senate Leaders agree that if a bill has been reported on a bipartisan basis from the Senate Appropriations Committee and is consistent with the BCA spending caps, and has the support of the Chairman and the Ranking Member, they will work together to minimize procedural delays. The Majority Leader will continue to consult with the Democratic Leader to sequence bills in a bipartisan way, and acknowledges that bipartisan concurrence is required to expedite the consideration of any appropriations bill.

    They will need Democratic Party votes even in the Senate.

  171. 171.

    cleek

    because we fucking won.

    The White House had demanded $150 billion in cuts as part of current budget talks. But on Monday evening, Trump agreed to a deal that raised spending by $320 billion. The Post’s Damian Paletta and Erica Werner labeled it a “significant retreat” for Trump, who got some accounting changes “that likely won’t constrain any future spending.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-sequel-the-art-of-the-cave/2019/07/22/d94a58bc-acb6-11e9-a0c9-6d2d7818f3da_story.html?utm_term=.9b4b61f730db

Comments are closed.