What do you all think of the idea being floated about the Dems choosing Justin Amash to be one of the House Impeachment Managers?
This post is in: Politics
This post is in: Politics
What do you all think of the idea being floated about the Dems choosing Justin Amash to be one of the House Impeachment Managers?
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Fine by me. A whisker of bipartisanship might not be a bad idea under the circumstances. It’s unlikely he’ll demand some legislative concession to participate, I think.
I don’t know why they would consider it. Other than opposing Trump’s lawlessness, everything about him is bog-standard GOP. He let the GOP hound him out of the party, so he’s not the stuff of which intestinal fortitude is made.
I think the Dems pushing for this want him simply because he isn’t a Democrat. I understand that; I just don’t know what utility it would have (even if he were to say yes, which I don’t believe he would).
Further proof Dems are the grownups in the room.
I’m for it. The dude makes the case for impeachment better than most Democrats.
I hate trusting a former Republican but he does have a reputation for being relatively principled.
I like it. He has integrity. His speech to his townhall about why Trump should be impeached (before the latest reasons why Trump should be impeached), was an eloquent presentation of both the facts and the reasons why it was important, and a risk to him politically. I would at least sit down with him and listen to what he would plan to say.
Plus the obvious, he’s not a Democrat, but that’s a knife with two edges.
Meh. Stick with known loyalists for this work.
Fuck Republican Daddies.
No reason he shouldn’t be part of it. They all need to be extremely clear about messaging, though, and he must agree to cooperate.
No. Just fucking no.
The Democratic Party does not need Justin Fucking Amash to do their jobs for them. It will add none of the “bipartisanship” or gravitas to the procedure that they fantasize it will. If you think you need a lapsed Tea Partier to help you get the job done, find another job.
Are shock collars for humans legal?
Asking for a Speaker of the House.
I read once that a good lawyer doesn’t ask a witness a question without already knowing the answer. [hence why it doesn’t make sense to call Mulvaney & Bolton as witnesses at the trial in the Senate, before they’ve been deposed] It seems like a simple corollary, that you don’t hire a lawyer for your team, without 100% rock-solid guarantee that they’re gonna stay on-message, take orders and execute ’em on the dot. No fuckin’ around, no freelancin’.
I worry about that. Also more simply, I don’t see how this moves even one vote. I mean, it’s not like this case is a hard one to follow: it seems like anybody who’s gettable, isn’t going to be changed by the fact that Amash is delivering the arguments (instead of e.g. Schiff).
But they’ll do it, b/c “GrOPer daddies”. Fuck.
Yeah, in the end, I think that’s right. We need to break the thinking that we need an outside ally for our actions to be legitimate.
He has been true to his principles, potentially at great cost. It is quite possible that his Congressional career will end in the next election. Unlike the other dissidents who are quietly retiring early to salve their consciences, he is unlikely to find a cozy sinecure funded by wingnut welfare.
He has been an eloquent and logically compelling advocate for impeachment.
It seems to me obvious that Pelosi should reach out to Amash, and if they can agree on a strategy, she should ask him to join the team.
(And that’s not even considering Even setting aside the rhetorical advantages of forming a non-partisan panel of House managers.)
I don’t know who that is but as a true progressive disciple of the Bern, I’m outraged by whatever it is you said.
Very OT—comments on earlier thread re A Christmas Carol— the only real true Scrooge is Alastair Sim in the early 50s British movie. I saw it when it first came out, and it has permanently made any other version a very weak imitation of the true story.
Depends. If he behaves himself and follows Schiff’s lead, then fine. (I am assuming Schiff will be heading the team.)
Do the managers have to be current members of the House?
hey, if they are going to do something like this, go out and get a well respected Republican lawyer and lawmaker who left politics behind before 2008. At least before 2012. They are out there. The public might not know who they are, but they will have a reputation in legal circles.
Or just say fuck it and bring in Sally Yates. At this point, the current crop of slavering idiots in the GOP is going to pitch a fit no matter what. Might as well bring in an ace pitcher.
Amish is tight with Senators Lee, Cruz and Paul. It would be delightful to have him making the argument for impeachment from a conservative viewpoint.
I’m of two minds here.
One side says screw him and the republicans.
But. And it’s a big, firm, round but.
This is a political process and even the scent of it being bipartisan may draw support to the supposedly 54% of the public on the throw the bum out side. And the more positive support the better. Also it may help with the fence sitters on the senate majority side to jump ship, so to speak. We’ve lost one vote already, do we at least have everyone else on our side voting for guilty and throw him out on his ass? If we do and can convince what at least 4 ship jumpers (or is it 5?), would that be a bad thing to have him on the committee?
@Ruckus: Adding to that – I wonder if announcing Amash before the House vote might keep some of the centrist Democrats from straying.
Why do we need Amash as an impeachment manager? I’m not sure what Democrats gain from having an Independent who is right-leaning as a manager. I’ll defer to them on this issue, however, since Democrats are handling the impeachment process very well so far.
Stunt casting is an obvious play for ratings.
I’m not thrilled with the idea on the merits, but if it could get some fawning coverage from the both-sides media, it might be worth it.
I don’t know that he’ll impact any senate or house votes, but Nancy & Co think his inclusion would move any votes away from Trump & Co in November, I’m on board.
In Nancy & Schiff I trust on this one.
This is my first impulse response as well.
However I’m willing to at least have the idea discussed. I’d want some kind of insurance that he’s not just doing his thing here as a ruse. He has to be absolutely genuine and 100% on our side in this, as in literally fall on his sword in chambers 100% on our side.
Gin & Tonic
@dr. bloor: +1
Uh, who? Or are you referring to Cong. van Drew [spit] ?
I have no idea how Amash performs in questioning and before the cameras. Those will be the requisite skills for the managers, plus following whatever playbook the Dems set. Schiff and Swalwell are superb at this. I’d also like to see some female House members in the mix. What about Katie Porter, or is she too much of a liberal firebrand?
@Wapiti: @dr. bloor: @Baud: Pretty much agree. It would be nice optics, but it’s such eleven-dimensional chess that it’s almost silly to speculate about, and it definitely shows the continuing need for Democrats to grow a damn spine.
Trump is a crook. His lawyers (including the one in jail) are crooks, his staff are crooks, even his (adult) kids are crooks. They’ve been convicted of crimes — all of them! Several times! Dems should be repeating this constantly, ten times as often as Trump has said “hoax” or “witch hunt,” and they shouldn’t let up.
Amash shmamash. The time for little improvements in the optics is long past. Put up the stake and bring out the firewood.
Amash has zero value to Democrats for anything other than impeaching Trump. Which is what they would be hiring him for. His town hall on the Mueller Report was great, he was better on the issue than 90% of Democrats, but then, also, the Impeachment managers aren’t going to include any of those 90%.
Short opinion, they don’t need him and Republicans no longer consider him one of theirs so there will be no bipartisanship added by including him, but he also isn’t likely to cause any damage either. It seems like something that won’t matter either way.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Hilarious but delicious. Shitgibbon’s head will explode.
None of us probably expect that he will be convicted and thrown out of office, and that more impeachment charges will have to be brought to keep up the pressure, to help insure a win for democrats in November so anything that might be a positive pressure against the shitgibbon would be OK with me.
A dumb idea is what I think. Little more than a gimmick.
Dorothy A. Winsor
What do the Impeachment Managers do?
Drn in chi west burbs
I defer to amash’s constituent Marvy Wheeler, who is strongly in favor.
I read that it was house “freshman Democrats” that are suggesting it or maybe pushing for it. It made me feel uncomfortable, like I was reading another “Democrats in disarray” kind of story. It makes it sound like the freshmen Dems are questioning Nancy Pelosi’s leadership. And because it sounds like that, I am doubting the accuracy of the stories. It feels like a well-placed leak from the White House or GOP Senate staff.
If the Dem leadership thinks he should be in that role, I will be fine with it. I doubt that will happen, though. So until we hear otherwise from the leadership, then no.
Amash is my rep, and I’d be surprised if he agreed to it. Cooperation with Democrats is not what Amash is about; he’ll take stands on his principals, but I suspect he holds Democrats in deep contempt.
If it’s just for the appearance of bipartisanship, it’s idiotic.
Val Demings is the one to tap.
J R in WV
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Impeachment Managers are House members acting as sort of prosecutors before the Senate, kind of acting as a jury.
@Dorothy A. Winsor
Rough parallel is taking on the role and tasks of prosecuting attorneys.
TheHill‘s version of the WP story:
There’s some value in him being on the team, but I don’t know the plusses-and-minuses.
It’ll be interesting to see how the vote goes on Wednesday…
Robert Mueller’s a Republican. Our experience with him does not make me want to run out and do it again.
I don’t really see the upside of this – Repubs see him as a Quisling and he’s unlikely to change anyone’s mind. The public might be impressed by the appearance of bipartisanship, but the public ain’t gonna be voting in the Senate.
It is what it is. If appointing Amash adds so much as an iota of heft to the forces tugging Michigan back into the D column come November, then why not.
Any voter who doesn’t already know enough to decide, isn’t gonna be swayed by some no-name Rep. from Michigan when every Trumpist GrOPer is shouting from the rooftops that he’s a traitor and an asshole.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t think any of those people want anything that would weaken their message of “partisan witch hunt”. I think it’s a good idea if he agrees to act in the role prescribed by Schiff (who I’m assuming will take (be given) the lead (by Pelosi).
Seconding zhena gogolia’s suggestion of Val Demmings. Katie Porter’s a good suggestion, too.
Hmmm. If your primary practical goal is to bludgeon the Republican Senate with their partisanship during the elections, AND you were absolutely positive the Republican would play ball, I could see this as useful. Right now the Independent consensus is that Democrats are pursuing justice and Republicans are acting as hacks. If we can scrape so much as half a percent of the vote by keeping it that way, that half a percent might sink McConnell’s treasonous ass.
Yes. And isn’t that Van Dumb?
Good catch – my bad
5 of his staff quit and he’s very likely to be on his way out in November anyway but he for sure isn’t a positive in any way.
It’s probably the closest we will get to bipartisanship in the Trump era, so what the heck – put Amash in charge. Not that it will make a nickel’s worth of difference to Turtlehead McConnell, Lurch Thune, Gravedigger Barrosso or any of the other reptilian Senate Republicans.
Any Juicer who physically can, needs to show up at one of the many pro-impeachment rallies around the country on Tuesday evening! Let’s show Trumpo what five million pissed-off Democrats looks like!!
Public opinion is a lagging indicator.
Look a[t] the polling history with Nixon.
A Senate trial has the potential to be a big deal. It would get live coverage and be less susceptible to Barr and others spinning it into some nothingburger.
Remember what the world’s greatest political strategist said:
– (from TheHill)
We’ll have to see what happens.
No. He’s no ally.
I have no problem if Amash is allowed to join the JV Squad. Allow him to waltz his republican pale male ass in and step right on up to a leadership position ahead of those (women) who’ve done the hard work- no way, unless you want to demoralize and depress turnout.
I Speaker Pelosi is in favor, then I’d trust her judgment.
Very good point.
Also, if he is only willing to be independent then he’ll probably change back when trump is out. So not much of a friend.
On the team? maybe. In charge of the team (which is what I thought was the ask)? NO NO NEVER NEVER!!!
I do not mean that low-info voters cannot be convinced. Rather, I mean that I don’t see how some no-name Congressman (and to a low-info voter, that’ll be the case) who’s being branded as a traitor and a nutcase by the GrOPers, can sway such voters. If they’re prone to believe what authority-figures tell ’em, then Amash will rapidly become the -least- trustworthy such figure.
These are low-information voters we’re talking about here. Anybody else, they oughta already have enough to decide, one way or the other.
Kay (not the front-pager)
I’ll go back and check if someone else has already said this, but isn’t he thinking of running as a third party candidate for president? Do we want to give him oxygen for that? For me at least, that’s a definite no.
Know the name but nothing else. If he can safely be kept on a tight leash by the Dem leaders, then why not? Not much respect for any who have made it to the present as ‘undecideds’, but throw as wide a net as you can, while maintaining integrity.
This is always the first instinct of a certain strain of Democrats (evidenced by Biden and Butttigieg) to seek some sort of bipartisan compromise. Fuckit. That’s nothing but a sign of weakness.
Give me ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of Republicans coming to Democrats to seek bipartisan consensus on ANY ISSUE since 2016. Any issue: Environmental protection, immigration, federal judges, affordable care act, consumer protection, taxes. Any single issue.
You can’t find any. Not at the federal level and not at any state level in any state controlled by the GOP. They don’t play that game but they are happy to play Dems for the fools every single time when the shoe is on the other foot.
As for Amash. Obviously he’s not a Republican anymore so that situation is a little different. Honestly I agree he makes the case as well as any Dem. But really, this is for all the marbles. The Dems need to pick their half-dozen or so smartest and most eloquent advocates who can capture the TV cameras and make the case to the American people. We all know this isn’t about convincing the Senate. It’s about making the case to the American people.
Yes. He’s smart and he’ll do a good job. He’ll never be a Democrat but who cares. It’s one House seat.
It still makes no sense to me. Unless we hear from Speaker Pelosi, I still wondering if this could be disinformation from any number of sources to delegitimize the impeachment process and increase the “Dems in disarray” stories to cause further distraction from the process and weaken the Democrats’ principled stand. I don’t buy it. It’s not a John Solomon story, but it still sounds fishy to me.
Democrats are different than Republicans though. Most Democrats will love it. They’ll all say “and he’s a REPUBLICAN” – it’s like “proof” that they’re right.
This is just how they are- I know not why :)
OT – Stopped procrastinating and signed up for the ACA just now. (Technically had until February, but I wanted to start saving money ASAP.) Surprised at how well the website was operating. Maybe I was the last one on-line to sign-up.
@Kay (not the front-pager):
If he’s running as an anti-trump candidate on trump’s right in the upper Midwest he could be a definite spoiler. Think of him as a libertarian Jill stein stealing votes from trump the way stein stole votes from Clinton.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Wag: I saw a tweet from him the other day that he’s running for his current House seat as an indy. If he’s currently running for president– though I do remember some speculation about that– I’ve missed it.
trumpov is 67 votes away from being an ex-president, and it’s freaking him out
Agreed with the stipulation of giving props to Seymour Hicks as a darn close, missed being a tie by a whisker runner-up.
David ??Booooooo?? Koch
George Conway and Rick Wilson would be entertaining. Plus they would drive Dump even nuttier.
@Another Scott: By August ’74 though, 57% were in favor of Nixon’s removal from office
No thank you.
Since the media seem to be incapable of handling this impeachment assignment with the seriousness it deserves, we should probably audition for some really good Broadway performers who will give it enough razzle dazzle to hold their attention.
It won’t matter because they’re all insane, but it’s interesting.
@John Revolta: Yup, but that basically as he was getting on the helicopter.
Gallup (from November 5):
Amash is my rep. I think his intellectual reputation is overblown, but since the baseline scenario for impeachment in the senate is a show trial followed by acquittal, it seems like throwing him in there as a curveball is probably worth a shot.
That’s Betsy DeVos country. She must be livid.
@zhena gogolia: Agree. Demming’s final statement on impeachment in the Judiciary Committee was so powerful.
Eh. If he’s capable of doing a good job, then fine. But we shouldn’t have him in that role just to appear “bipartisan”. I firmly believe that everyone’s mind is completely made up on this issue, on Trump, and probably partisan politics as a whole, so I would need some serious arm-twisting to think that we could really convince anyone who isn’t already anti-Trump.
I’m open to the idea. It would need to be a very clear understanding between the Dem caucus and Amash.
Those saying his presence won’t change any votes in the Senate GOP, that is 95-99% correct. There is a slim, very slim chance maybe Mitt could be picked off (to abstain? That seems very Mitt).
Anyway. None of that is the point. What I think Amash brings is focus on the decayed, principle-free party he left. And that matters for the Senate election in November. Would his presence matter enough? Who the frunk knows.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
have we blown open the thread in true jackal fashion? This person makes a good point, whatever you want to say about Hunter Biden, I haven’t seen any evidence that he cost taxpayers a dime
@Another Scott: I’ve been on that helicopter(as well as the plane he was on when he ceased to be President). The chopper is at the Nixon Library, the plane is at the Reagan Library.
Shorter me (I can’t edit my previous):
Amash won’t likely change any votes in the Senate, but his presence could change votes for the Senate. And we have to make Mitch the minority leader (or retired) or WASF.
Do it just because it will drive Republicans crazy. It will, too.
@CaseyL: He’s actually a true civil libertarian – you know, the thing Rand Paul pretends to be. He’s definitely extremely conservative in his fiscal beliefs, but I don’t think he’s the type who only harps on the debt and deficit during Democratic administrations.
I don’t really agree with most of his beliefs, but unlike the vast majority of Republicans today, he seems to have at least something resembling actual principled beliefs (that aren’t abandoned just because a Republican is in the White House).
@Kent: I absolutely hate having to factor in our idiot, both-sides media, but I think Amash being part of the dozen may be attractive to those media morons who gatekeep far too much of the coverage via that both-y lens.
Every voice helps.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Does anyone have any thoughts about reports of Jeff Van Drew switching to the Republican Party? If he does, I think he’s toast. He was elected with 53% of the vote in NJ’s 2nd Congressional District. Of course, the nationally syndicated news report that the local news runs had to mention this in their typical “both sides, Dems in Disarray!11!!, the GOP/Trump are all powerful” narrative
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I know nothing of the district, but i doubt the local GOPers will sit still and leave the primary alone for him. They don’t do that. It’s essentially an open seat now and hopefully he gets his ass primaryied by some tea party asshole while Dems find a real Dem to run
Actually I suspect he is already toast. If he stays on the Dem ticket he will get trounced in primary.
@Chetan Murthy: QFT
Each party now enjoys the support of about 30% of the electorate, with Ds having a slight edge, maybe a point or two. People who call themselves Independents run about 40% of us. And those Independents, when forced to “lean”, are squishy, tho’ usually they pick the Ds, and sometimes pick them strongly, like by more than 5 pts or (a few times in 2019) as much as 10. They very rarely favor the Rs, and then only by 1 or 2.
What I think this means (tho’ who the fuck knows) is that somewhere around 10% of the electorate is truly indifferent to parties. It makes sense to give those people someone to identify with, and Amash is that. He’s also perfectly clear about what a disgrace trump has made of the powers we entrusted him with.
So I say, bring it.
It’s an excellent idea and I hope they do it. Rooney too (but only if he votes to impeach).
David ??Booooooo?? Koch
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s a dumb move. Obama won the district by 8 points. Yes Dump won by 4, but that took a perfect storm. Moreover, even if Van Drew isn’t swept out next year, he’ll be redistricted out of job in 2022.
I’m open to it. He’s saying the right things on Twitter about Trump and impeachment.
If he’s willing to be a team player for the length of the trail I think he’d be a good addition.
Amash is my rep. I think his intellectual reputation is overblown
Of course it is. He is a Libertarian.
@dr. bloor: If we’re actually in a serious crisis with the Trump presidency, you bring aboard any and all allies against him. Even the flawed ones.
If, however, we’re actually an obscenely well-off country and Trump is just a relatively minor nuisance, then you stick with these purity games.
@Kent: Local NYC newsradio is reporting that he met or is meeting with the White House to arrange that there be no GOP primary after he switches. Whether that’s reliable (with the liars in the WH, who’d believe them?), it’s clear that we now have room for a better Democrat to win the district.
No, they can’t do or guarantee that. Nor would they want to. About all the White House can guarantee is that they won’t go out there and endorse another candidate as MAGA-approved. He is guaranteed to get primaryied in the GOP primary and they will run him fucking ragged with all the rabid GOP loyalty tests in the campaign and debates. Guns, abortion, taxes, repeal Obamacare, etc. etc. He’s basically toast. The only moderate GOPers who can last long term are the old establishment types with lots of name recognition and a big local machine. A freshman Dem like this? No way.
No. Just No. In fact, Fuck No. Pick the best most experienced legal minds and prosecutors available from the Democratic caucus. No one is going to give a shit about the optics of “bi-partiisanship”. Good grief, our side can sure come up with some stupid shit at times.
Just the usual, Democrats acting like they’re afraid of some ungettable voter’s view of them. Or maybe the WaPo editorial page. Grow a pair, Dems, own impeachment, impeach him like you mean it
Nope. The both-sides-fits-all media wants it, but we’re better off with someone actually experienced with the rules and able to argue the facts.
@Kay: DeVos is in fact livid. She was big supporter and he has betrayed her by going against Trump. Anyone who betrays DeVos is fine in my book.
emptywheel in amash favor
Think there’sa incorrect conflation being made, imo, betwixt the justly reviled Dem overreliance n dependence on GOP Daddies n what’s going on with effort to draft Amash.
Hell muthaphuckin ‘ NO??
I think the impeachment should not be forwarded to a senate that has announced its coordination with the defendant, and the House should take up more investigations until SCOTUS rules on Mazars, etc.
Jim Comey was a Republican and a Trump favorite until he refused to play ball on the Michael Flynn investigation. Robert Mueller was a lifelong Republican as well. Short of naming Devin Nunes to the Dem impeachment team and allowing him to prosecute Biden and Burisma, there will be no appearance of “bipartisanship” on the House impeachment team.
Past history is irrelevant. Any Republican who is against Trump is a traitor. Former Republicans doubly so. Dems would be better off naming Ocasio-Cortez, Tlaib and Omar to the team.
Enough with the stunts and the attempts at triangulation. Dems need to name a team of professionals and take the prosecution seriously. Let the argument stand on its own and let the Republicans show just how corrupted their party has become if they refuse to hold Trump accountable.
Michigan has been subjected to Amash for years ie: Tea Party. I’ve seen him up close, often. I don’t trust him. He is an Opportunist with flexible beliefs as needed. Has he done anything really constructive for Michigan, ever? I don’t see him changing for the better.
@Kay: We’re impressed when we can pull one from the other side. It’s like we watched the front slope of their head suddenly fill with brains.