George Romney would have been proud
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) February 5, 2020
This, right here. It hasn’t changed how I feel about Mitt Romney, and if he still lived in Massachusetts I might not be able to bring myself to say this, but he did the right thing by voting to impeach Trump.
And if that’s because he finally got to behave in a way that would make his old man proud… well, I’ve never heard a harsh word about George Romney from the Michiganders who lived through his governorship there. Which among others would include my Spousal Unit, along with political professional Dana Houle.
Props to Romney. And props to Mormons, many of whom have demonstrated integrity in rejecting Trumpism. But I have to wonder if part of the psychology at play is thinking about what would have happened if instread of the eventually impeached Nixon his dad had been the 1968 nominee
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) February 5, 2020
Also worth noting one’s father was born in a refugee camp, the other’s father was born in a Mormon colony in Mexico and fled during the Mexican Revolution, losing their home and most of the property.
Romney & Amash don’t come from the same tribal background of 95% of DC Repubs https://t.co/HjN2qxbrKu
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) February 5, 2020
And he’s just made himself all the right enemies…
So you’re saying that @SenatorRomney prioritized his oath of office and fidelity to the Constitution over partisan considerations. https://t.co/mF4U4eMtj6
— Robert Schlesinger (@rschles) February 5, 2020
Look, this is the absolute lowest of bars, but this Romney vote is probably the most politically courageous thing a Republican has done since Trump has been elected. Again, the lowest of bars, but it's definitely something given how badly he's about to be pilloried.
— Centrism Fan Acct ?? (@Wilson__Valdez) February 5, 2020
this isn't a knock on romney or a diminution of his decision, which is good and right. i just don't think mitt romney gives much of a shit about what charlie kirk thinks about him, which makes him sane.
— Very Calm Sporting Enthusiast (@CalmSporting) February 5, 2020
gotta admire Romney for saving this till the moment it would absolutely ruin what had been a great news cycle for Trump too. both morally *and* politically on point. good work.
— James Palmer (@BeijingPalmer) February 5, 2020
Honestly, I think he's just an old man who's tired of this shit. https://t.co/An7A3xEeJY
— Starfish Annoyed With The Corn-Eating Incompetents (@IRHotTakes) February 5, 2020
No, Mitt ain't a saint. Trump's rise is in no small part due to Mitt helping raise his national profile.
But at the end of the day, he had a limit, which is frankly more than you can say for most people these days. That, if nothing else, is worth respect.
— Starfish Annoyed With The Corn-Eating Incompetents (@IRHotTakes) February 5, 2020
And he’s changed the top line in his obituary from that dinner with Trump:
History will mark that the vote to convict Donald Trump was bipartisan. The vote for acquittal had no Democrats. The narrative of the Iowa Caucus and the State of the Union suddenly seems a long time ago.
— Dan Rather (@DanRather) February 5, 2020
Take your victories where you find them!
rikyrah
Scraped together a spine ??
dmsilev
@rikyrah: It was included in the latest round of software upgrades.
MomSense
It looks like they updated his software with the addition of feelings. He seemed genuinely emotional during his speech.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah
I think that the oath he took to hear the evidence impartially really weighed on him. His morals are not my morals, but I do think that he found that he was unable to violate that oath for mere political reasons.
:
Steeplejack
Huh. Apparently Kirk Douglas has died.
ETA: Hollywood Reporter story.
MomSense
@dmsilev:
HA! It took me so long between reading the post and commenting (my dog heard something, jumped up on the couch and started barking furiouslyout the window) that I didn’t see your comment when I finally added mine.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Three cheers to Doug Jones and Joe Manchin.
Mnemosyne
In the other thread, I said that Mitt gave Trump the John McCain Memorial Thumbs-Down. ??
He even waited until the right psychological moment to wreck the Republicans’ victory party, just like McCain did with the PPACA repeal.
debbie
@rikyrah:
Half a spine or he’d have voted guilty for both counts.
Mnemosyne
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
And Krysten Sinema, who is a goddamned “independent” flake most of the time.
debbie
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
Seconded.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
My parents are tut-tuting Pelosi for last night’s SOTU, saying “she could have been the better person”.
WTF. I can’t even. Believe me, they’re Dems (sort of), but they parrot too much MSM CW garbage.
“She could have alienated 3% of independents. Was it really worth it?”
Anybody who was “alienated” is not going to remember this come November
trollhattan
R.I.P. Spartacus, er, Kirk Douglas. 103, a life well lived and thanks for all the great films, sir!
Kent
Of all the possible GOP Senators from Utah, we probably have the least bad of all possible options.
I will say that having lived in both the south (Evangelical Baptist land) and the west (Oregon) with lot of Mormons in my suburban childhood, the difference is night and day. Mormons might have the more crazy theology , but they don’t cultivate the stupid like southern fundies. And, despite the history of the church, they tend to be a lot less racist, at least in my limited experience.
I did learn a lot of Mormon missionary jokes from my time in the Peace Corps in Guatemala where they seemed to be in every town.
Martin
Well, the Dems may turn on him, but I bet he gets more calls from Schumer after this.
debbie
Six minutes ago, Trump posted a Romney-hate video.
trollhattan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Gaslight the hell out of them: “Don’t you member Paul Ryan adjusting his nutsack and John Boehner mixing old fashions while Obama delivered his SOTUs? Why was that okay?”
Baud
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
Agreed. Not as newsworthy, but they deserve some love tonight, along with Sinema and Tester.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Baud
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
Good.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Steeplejack: Got a news alert about Kirk’s passing on my computer, 103 years is a good long run.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
(AP) — WASHINGTON Donald Trump to posthumously award Medal of Freedom to Hermann Göring, citing his contributions to aviation and art collection.
chopper
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
a goddamn garbage fire is a better person than trump any day of the week.
Kent
@Baud: There were Sandernistas on NPR this afternoon wailing about how unfair it is that Sanders was getting more total votes but that somehow the system was rigged to give Buttigieg more delegates. Ha! It was YOU guys who wanted to keep the caucus system instead of reverting to a straight-up vote counting primary. It never ends with these people.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
I believe the early Mormon church believed black skin was a sign of divine disfavor; the curse of Ham, I think from Genesis. It’s disavowed now. I imagine they’re no less racist than other white people
JPL
@debbie: but, but Nancy was disrespectful.
batguano
About to head out to the bar to play some D&D. Looking forward to starting Curse of Strahd and spending the evening exploring Death House. Hope my Moon Druid makes it out alive.
misterpuff
@Mnemosyne: Even though we all laughed during his Obama debate “please proceed Governor” moment when he spoke of the “Russian threat”, Mitt gets the last laugh. And I think Drumpf’s obeisance to Putin has been sticking in his craw.
We were wrong Mitt. Thank you for today.
The GOP is a wholly-owned subsidiary of The PutinCorp.
geg6
RIP Kirk Douglas. A lot of terrific films and a long and productive life.
Baud
@Kent:
Ha! Now they care about the popular vote. Hillary awaits their apology.
hells littlest angel
@trollhattan: *Sigh* Taken too young.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kent: Katrina van den Heuvel was whining about it on the Ari Melber program. She also said she thought the low turnout was a bad sign, but she’s confident that Warren and Sanders can boost turnout in a general.
Cacti
@geg6: And alleged rapist of 16 year old Natalie Wood.
Martin
Romney’s going to have to explain who he’s endorsing for president, who he’ll vote for, and so on. Should be fun to watch him run through that minefield.
Roger Moore
@rikyrah:
I think it’s more of an exoskeleton, but it still puts him ahead of the nematodes that make up the rest of the caucus.
senyordave
RIP Kirk. Loved him in Spartacus, but he was also fantastic as Whit Sterling in Out of the Past (a classic of film noir).
Butter Emails
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m not sure what I think about the low turnout. Might just be because a big chunk of Democrats just want to beat Trump and don’t particularly care about who does it.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@Butter Emails:
Last I heard, turnout wasn’t low. It just didn’t go up from 2016. 2008 broke all records, but that was a unique year. But it’s not as if turnout was down.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@misterpuff: didn’t we laugh cause he said “Soviet Union”? and the notion that Russia is our number one geopolitical foe or rival or enemy is still a highly debatable statement
and how long do I have to wait before I became That On-Line Guy who points out that we might not have come to this if Romney had done more than tut-tut and furrow his brow when Barr and McConnell decided to pretend the Mueller Report said what it said? corroborated by all of our lying eyes?
Steeplejack
@Butter Emails:
That is Josh Marshall’s take, which seems plausible.
Jeffro
@debbie: he and his dumb-ass son are going to turn off an additional small, but significant % of voters this week and next while they spin out of control.
hey GOP, don’t say we didn’t warn you ;)
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Early? That was LDS policy until 1977, mark of Cain.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Butter Emails: @Baud: right, but the entire logic of the campaigns and ideas that KVH advocates is that whey will turn out excited new voters.
I’m certainly one of those, but I have a lot of ideas– different ones at any given moment– about which Democrat/s, and which policies, can actually do that
Baud
@misterpuff:
Please proceed was about Mitt saying Obama never would never call ISIS terrorists or something like that, I thought.
rikyrah
@Steeplejack:
He was over 100, right?
mrmoshpotato
@Kent: Awwwww!!!!!
Patricia Kayden
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Apparently the Mitt bot got an ethics module upgrade. Not bad.
And Mitt POWNed Trump, nice.
TS (the original)
@debbie:
I will forever have difficulty believing that the President of the United States would be there for those who bow before him – and no-one else. The petty vindictive actions that would not be accepted from any other person on social media are supported and encouraged by ALL forms of political media. The sooner twitter is sued out of existence for allowing such hate to be posted online, the sooner the world will be a better place.
Immanentize
@Baud: Yes, it was a normal turnout. Maybe people finally sussed to the fact that IT MEANS NOTHING. And thank you Iowa Dem. Party for proving that point.
Meanwhile, “I won Iowa” should be a requirement on the tombstone of everyone who, you know, won Iowa.
mrmoshpotato
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Hahaha! Very random thing to make up.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s 2008 that was the anomaly, when Obama won Iowa because he was able to bring in young voters, and new voters, etc.
Still, we need everybody and their dog to come out and vote in November. Make that vote for a DEMOCRAT
edit: Or, what Baud said.
HalfAssedHomesteader
Also due respect for Doug Jones and Joe Manchin who showed greater political courage given their constituents.
Duane
The GAO says Trumpov violated the law by withholding Ukranian funds. Call their people in for a talk. Trumpov lied about knowing Parnas. His tape makes that plain. Why did he lie? We deserve to know. Cippolone cover-up his knowledge. Bolton, Mulvany, plenty of unanswered questions to investigate.
Immanentize
@mrmoshpotato: And, Goering’s ultimate sacrifice to his leader cannot be gainsaid.
Elizabelle
@HalfAssedHomesteader: And Kristen Sinema.
geg6
@Cacti:
Never heard that. I hope it’s not true, but…well, men.
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: isn’t there an obligatory — maybe statutory — requirement that when her name is mentioned, so is he sexual identity. I am So.Over.That.
germy
@trollhattan:
Except for the incident with Natalie Wood:
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Regarding turnout, I do know one thing, the midterm produced the highest turnout in modern history.
I left my office that day ten minutes to five and to my surprise all the roads were jammed – bumper to bumper. It didn’t matter which road I turned on to, they were all jammed. It was so unusual I tried to think what was the cause. Having submitted an absentee ballot, voting wasn’t in my head. At first I wondered if there was some sort of Xmas sale going on, but I dismissed it because Black Friday was 3 1/2 weeks away. Then it hit me, “it’s election day and everyone is trying to get to the polls!” “My God!” I thought, “look at all the people.” Sure enough, people were crawling over broken glass to cast a vote.
That anger against Dump is still there.
Wag
Good for Romney.
Immanentize
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: The failure of the system in Iowa is clearly the best publicity possible for Buttigieg. Days of “he won.” If Pete “managed” this “error” it makes me think more of him.
Aleta
I figure: he always wanted to stand in front of the country as a hero and good guy. (Rove promised he’d get that on election night 2012, then personally added more embarrassment to the loss.) Today Romney got his moment, all eyes on him as he explained that his vote represents his moral character and service to dog and conscience.
I’m just glad the way he satisfied that desire was in service to Democrats and truth and all that.
Immanentize
@germy: Interesting blog post
Jim, Foolish Literalist
bluehill
@Steeplejack: While I agree, I think the potential issue remains the same as it did in 2016, which is in swing states and the swing counties are enough dems going to turnout to overcome Trump’s smaller but ardent base. Whoever emerges from the dem primary, can/will dems and “independents” in those swing states rally and go vote for a candidate that they don’t find that attractive and after the likely smear campaign to suppress potential votes. As I understand now, suppression isn’t just trying to prevent people from voting, it’s also de-motivating them from voting. Trump has already been planting seeds of discord against all the frontrunners. They only needed 80k votes last time.
Shalimar
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Not just early Mormon church. They finally officially changed the racist policy in 1978.
chopper
@Kent:
not only that, but the extra wacky rules this year were pushed by wilmer’s team. the petard, it done hoisted.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Not very interesting at all.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I hate to say it, but unless Biden can get it together, I think Bloomberg has a chance.
Elizabelle
@Aleta: It was in service to his country. That it put him on the same side as all the Democratic Senators is the icing.
I am glad Mitt Romney voted to convict. I don’t see much point in calling him a robot. Courage and doing the right thing is so rare — astronomically so for current Republican senators — that let’s just celebrate his vote.
Chyron HR
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m waiting for John Cougar’s endorsement.
geg6
@germy:
Not that I don’t believe Douglas (or any man) is incapable of such despicable behavior, I’m not sure how reliable that source is. Is there a more definitive one with sourcing? I have never heard this and would like to know more. Never heard that Robert Wagner was gay either.
Immanentize
@Baud: I don’t. Bloomberg needs voters and delegates. From what primary? He may knock off Biden, when his target was Warren and Sanders. But tell me where his delegates are living? California? It’s a proportional fight.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
BRB gotta go read this, now
Baud
“chickenshit”
Just now on MSNBC.
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: agree
geg6
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Seriously? I’m pretty shocked by that.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I see an opening for Baud!2020!.
Immanentize
@Chyron HR: He likes that hot chick, Tulsa, or whatever.
MisterForkbeard
@Steeplejack: This is sort of my own take.
I’m not super enthused by the remaining candidates. I really liked Harris, Inslee and a few others. I like Warren but I’m becoming increasingly worried she’ll get the Hillary treatment from the media and that sexism will play a huge part against her.
If I had to vote now, I’d probably choose Warren. Maybe Biden. I don’t feel that strongly about it. But it’s more like I’m not really enthused about any candidate above any other. They’re all pretty great! I will campaign like crazy for whomever the nominee is.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: ain’t that America
Baud
@Immanentize:
Although probably unlikely, if Biden tanks in NH and maybe Nevada, I can see his voters going to Bloomberg. Klobuchar probably is out soon too, so the big question is how well Pete can do outside of Iowa.
chris
Guess who
Brace for incoming!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Oh My.
(Clutches pearls on couch and fans self.)
zhena gogolia
@Steeplejack:
RIP, Kirk. So many good performances. I love him in stuff like Martha Ivers and Road House.
Thank you, Mitt.
Cermet
@germy: ugh; another one turns out to be a monster – didn’t know this but explains her extreme need to drink that ultimately, cost her her life via being drunk and drowning. Like Bryan, I’m finding these things out only after these low life’s die. Good ridence if true.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: For those blocked by the NYT paywall:
Immanentize
@MisterForkbeard: enthusiasm for your own personal Jesus is a luxury. Stop talking like that.
Personal Jesus
you’ll dance to anything by Depeche Mode.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Who are they calling chickenshit, and who is doing the calling?
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I’m regretting my decision not to have $50 billion.
Mary G
This is the cherry on top of the Romney sundae:
You know the knickknacks in the Oval are flying and crashing.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Joe Walsh on GOP senators.
Immanentize
@Baud: Pete is finished. Sanders wins NH and Warren comes in second with a third place Biden. Then? Bloomberg? Really?
zhena gogolia
@misterpuff:
I don’t think “Please proceed” was about Russia.
But yes, Mitt was right.
LongHairedWeirdo
I’ll agree with this – for all that I’ve said “teeny tiny thing”, I will agree that he’s done more than anyone else, and what’s really, horrifically, *shocking*, is a failed vote to convict is the biggest thing any R has done since Trump’s election.
That said, there were probably a dozen people, sworn to see that the laws are faithfully executed, all of whom ignored Trump’s egregious behavior, and only *some* of whom chose to testify, while only a single person in the entire federal government chose to raise an alarm. There’s a reason I don’t see Romney as having done something meaningfully moral. He didn’t show any real courage, or honor, he just checked a single box.
I won’t deny that he was the only person who checked that box, but you’ll have to pardon me for not thinking “but I checked the box! I didn’t do nothing else, but I did check the box!” is a meaningful thing to brag about. We shouldn’t be looking at him with any pride; we should be looking at the other Rs with that much more disgust. They couldn’t even be bothered to act as if the box existed to be checked.
(Don’t tell me they made *statements*. If you’re not used to pre-vote bloviation, go home, I hear your mother calling (read as: you’re clearly too young/naive to be talking about this). We all know they made those statements to set the stage, and possibly see if they could build up suspense.)
Baud
@Mary G:
Now that’s low turnout. You would think ratings would be up because everyone likes to watch a train wreck.
Elizabelle
@geg6: Thank you for saying that. I noticed that the entire blogpost — it’s from someone’s private blog — was completely unsourced.
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: Yep! I’m pretty fine with the whole thing and I’m speaking up about the virtues of the whole field. I don’t need my own personal best choice or to think that our nominee is a perfect human being. I’m absolutely there in the general, and I’ll vote in the primary. Just not sure for who yet.
But I can see people who are willing to sit out the primaries because they’re don’t care who takes on Trump – they just want to vote against Republicans.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: I think it was in March 2016 when I looked over at the R primary and thought, every outcome seems equally unlikely
Immanentize
@Mary G: “All Presidential Hummel’s Smashed!”
Cherubic Visages Created by Nuns Lie in Dust.
Baud
@Immanentize:
He’s gone from no where to about 10% in the polls in a short period of time. I think it’s possible if enough non-liberals find Bernie or Warren less desirable or unelectable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@geg6:
I thought the latest rumor was Natalie Wood died cause she caught Wagner with another woman and ran out on the deck of the boat and slipped and he didn’t call 911, also they were all smashed
Immanentize
@MisterForkbeard: I agree totally with your second paragraph. And I like Depeche Mode. So there!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
That doesn’t work when you’re on the train.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
That is wise.
LC
@batguano: if your DM is playing Death House straight out of the box without thinking about it, no. It is horribly out of whack for being the intro (especially if you start at 1). There is great stuff there, but the DM needs to think about pacing and balance and not just take it as rote what is on the page.
Good luck!!!
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: If Biden has trouble, I don’t know where his voters go. Buttigieg or Klobuchar? Biden’s biggest asset is his core of black voters, and I don’t see them going to Pete or Amy. Probably not to Sanders. I don’t think there’s an obvious place for them to go.
They almost certainly won’t go to Bloomberg, but they might decide that he has the best chance of winning and head over to him. They’re very pragmatic, so that could happen despite Bloomberg’s history.
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: That was what I was suggesting when I said, “nice blogpost.” Subtle too much perhaps?
Immanentize
@Baud: We shall, as ever, see.
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: Never Let Me Down Again, man. :)
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Don’t leave Christopher Walken out of the story, please?
Patricia Kayden
Mnemosyne
@Immanentize:
I am also not setting my heart on any one candidate because I don’t want to feel disappointed in the final nominee. At this point, I would happily work for any of the remaining nominees except for the Russian twins. Yes, even Bloomberg. I could get very enthusiastic about his gun control stance if needed.
I am saving my energy for the general election, because I sure as shit am going to need it.
Immanentize
@MisterForkbeard: Warren has made more inroads into that community than many are willing to admit. Her strategy now is everyone’s second choice.
Cacti
On the short list for people most needing to be punched in the junk today:
Jonathan Turley writes whiny screed that Nancy Pelosi should resign for her lack of decorum at the SOTU.
I won’t bother linking.
Baud
@Cacti:
At this point, he’s really just a troll.
zhena gogolia
@Cacti:
He’s okay with ripping up the Constitution.
Immanentize
@Mnemosyne: I have so little energy left, as well. But, after the convention? Watch out world!
Baud
I have to admit, Bloomberg has had some good zingers lately. I like zingers.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Cacti: Did professor Turley have a take on Trump not shaking the Speaker’s hand, also a departure from decorum?
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Every so often, some ambitious DA or cop decides to try and depose Wagner again, but the answers are pretty much the same: he doesn’t entirely remember what happened, because they were all really, really drunk.
”Death by misadventure” still seems like the most rational verdict.
ETA: As far as I know, his story has always been that they were really drunk, they had a stupid argument, she stormed off to try and go back to shore in a lifeboat, and he passed out.
Kent
I think it is highly possible that there are millions of Democrats out there who are simultaneously: (1) highly energized and motivated to beat Trump at all costs, and (2) underwhelmed by our current choices in the primary.
I know I, for one, fall into that category. Is it too much to ask for a brilliant experienced candidate in the prime of their life? I will vote and campaign for anyone but Trump. But I have nowhere near the energy that I did say in 2008 with the inspirational Obama08 campaign when I went out and did the Texas caucuses and had a bazillion Obama lawn signs in the primary. I was all in for Harris and Castro/Booker/Beto curious. Right now I’m all in for either Warren or Klobuchar but not optimistic I will even have either of them to vote for when this road show finally gets to Washington State with the geriatrics and billionaire geriatrics sucking up all the oxygen.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: “Whose the other billionaire?” was a pretty good one.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: the long held story is that she found Wagner in flagrante delicto with Christopher Walken.
Mnemosyne
@Immanentize:
I had good luck volunteering in Nevada last time, so I may consider helping out in Arizona this fall. I could get very enthusiastic about campaigning for Mark Kelly.
Steeplejack (phone)
@rikyrah
He was 103.
Kent
@Cacti: Ripping up a federal document???? Gasp… I mean who does that???
Oh……
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/10/trump-papers-filing-system-635164
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: there was a story floating around the internet the last time Turley stuck his smarmy troll face in front of many cameras– I think to rag on Mueller?– about (I think I have this right) his law students punking him into cancelling class by pretending to be a live radio interview, or maybe the pre-interview to a TV appearance?. I’ve tried to google for it but can’t find anything.
And speaking of Mueller: I’m at the report release part of the Very Stable Genius audiobook and Barr or someone very close to him was shall we say very cooperative with the authors, hard spinning on Mueller: “Don’t he look tired?”
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kent: And the Speaker had the only copy of the SOTU speech, there were no others!
Martin
@Baud: He doesn’t need to tear down Warren or Bernie. Regarding delegates, you need 1990. There are 155 up for grabs in the 4 states that he’s skipping, and those look like nobody will take much more than 50. So that’s Bloomberg’s deficit exiting the first 4 states – about 50 delegates out of 1990 needed.
My guess is Bloomberg will gain at Biden’s expense. That will put him in the running given how tight things are at the top. He’s at 10% without having stood on a debate stage, and he’ll almost certainly meet the criteria for the Feb 19 debate.
I’m not saying I support him (though I will of course vote for him as with any of the others if he does win the nomination) but I’m really expecting to see him in the final two.
Elizabelle
@?BillinGlendaleCA: It was on parchment! An illuminated manuscript of untold hours of labor.
Cacti
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Of course not.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
And there was a treasure map on the back.
Martin
@Baud: Another point in his favor – the SOTU pointed out just how hard Trump is going to push for this election. The Dem nominee needs to learn from Nancy – you refuse to shake my hand, I’ll tear up your speech and steal your headlines.
Bloomberg hates Trump. I mean, personal, visceral hates him and he lives in Trumps world. I think he can hit Trump very hard. I think Warren is the only other one who might come close.
germy
A silent film actress still lives today.
Diana Serra Cary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Serra_Cary
Born 1918
Baud
@Martin: He has other advantages too, besides his own personal BRINKS TRUCKS!
He’s accepted as a serious person by the Village, and he might be reassuring to those idiot voters who fear a liberal candidate would hurt the good economy.
Nicole
@Elizabelle: Here’s from Gawker, circa 2012.
https://gawker.com/5893793/did-robert-downey-jr-really-just-accuse-kirk-douglas-of-a-brutal-rape
What stuck out to me was someone commenting that it wasn’t exactly a secret.
According to Twitter, Suzanne Finstad’s biography of Natalie Wood references it, too.
Obv. there’s not going to be someone definitively going on the record- look how long it took Weinstein to be exposed? Or Cosby? And this was DECADES before them, when things were even worse.
FYI, this was the first I’d heard of it, but I don’t tend to follow H’wood gossip; I don’t care who is dating whom. But I do love to google, and I was curious. Is it true? Dunno, but can I believe it is? Yeah, I can. And I adore Spartacus.
I think the most important thing is not to lionize artists, athletes, whomever, because, in the end, they’re all human, and when we demi-deify some folk because they entertain us, we get very defensive of them if it comes out that they victimized other people (and, in many cases, it enables them to continue victimizing). I’m in a play right now with a delightful and very talented 24-year-old actor who mentioned he’s working his way through a list of books David Bowie said everyone should read, and that he was also reading about what songs people thought the various books inspired. I said I wondered which book inspired him to sleep with a 14-year-old and boy oh boy did this young man get upset (he had never heard of Lori Mattix). Viscerally upset and defensive over someone he never met.
(Also FYI, I too love Bowie’s music. But he was human, and sometimes not a good one.)
germy
Baud
@germy:
Someone’s memes are leaking.
kindness
I doubt Trump sees Dan Rather’s tweets but if he does that one is gonna burn.
Trump is seething. He’s gonna do a whole lot of stupid things to blow off steam. That’s what bullies do when there are no little kids to beat up on.
germy
And so it begins…
germy
PsiFighter37
@germy: Wisconsin has to be full of a lot of idiots to elect people like Scott Walker and Ron Johnson. Dumb as a bag of hammers, both of them.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Bloomberg is my second to last candidate (not counting Gabbard), and it wouldn’t kill me to have to vote for him, but I’m just gobsmacked that he’s spending $250M (I think is the latest estimate) just because he was personally offended by the idea, the mention, of Warren’s wealth tax, which he has to know has no chance of becoming law under Warren’s best 2020 scenario.
Yutsano
@germy:Olivia de Havilland is also still going. Same age as Kirk was in fact.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy: Lindsey Graham made it pretty clear a few weeks ago he was going after Hunter
Kent
Very much this.
The orcs are not just at the door, they are already in the room. This is for all the stakes and the future of the country. We are looking forward to the biggest barn burning shit-hurricane of an election that is going to make 2016 look like an elementary school PTA election. A tired old “no-malarky guy” or a tired old barstool leftist is not putting our best forward. I think Warren is the only one with perhaps the energy and drive and seriousness of purpose to tackle the job. Maybe also Klobuchar. I’m not convinced that even Bloomburg’s money is enough. Clinton had more money than Trump too. I don’t even think this is going to be about money. It is going to be about capturing the media narrative and prying it away from Trump’s clammy hands. Day in, day out.
Martin
@Baud: His position as UN Special Envoy for Climate Action will win over a lot of voters. He might even be able to get an endorsement from Jerry Brown.
If he makes the kind of case for climate action that he is inclined to make, and he’s put his own money behind that in the past, and he’s putting forward a tax plan that is in the ballpark of Warren which carries some weight given the extent it applies to him, I can see him winning a lot of voters once they see him in person.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Baud:
If only you had decided to work and make something of yourself. That was my problem, too.
Martin
@germy: I think the invitation of an impeached president does warrant a bit of a change in greeting.
PsiFighter37
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I am quite positive that Bloomberg running had little to nothing to do with Elizabeth Warren’s proposals. If he was that concerned about the wealth tax – or about Warren’s presence overall – he would be running ads against them nonstop. Instead, he has spent 100% of his money on either pumping himself up or trashing Trump.
I have many problems with him, and I am really concerned about the fact that he has the ability to dump ungodly amounts of money into a race and hardly blink, but Bloomberg has barely laid a finger on any of the other nominees running in the primary (or at least in a way that caught anyone’s attention). I wouldn’t be surprised if that changes, but he’s been a better team player than others (say, St. Wilmer, for instance).
Bluehill
If the frontrunners split the vote, maybe that enables Bloomberg to gain ground. Kind of the way Trump did in 2016, although I think he tapped into the underlying racism and nationalism of the repubs in a charismatic and visceral way that none of the others could. Bloomberg doesn’t offer that kind of appeal but maybe he appeals to people that just want things to go back to “normal”.
Chyron HR
@germy:
“It says here that you traveled to THE Ukraine on several occasions, how do you explain THAT?”
“I had a job there.”
“Well…. you’re a PAJAMA BOY REEEEEEEEEEEE”
Elizabelle
@Nicole: You always have such humane comments. Much appreciated, and I do read every word!
janesays
@Steeplejack: Wow… what was he, like 120 years old?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bluehill:
that, and he promised to protect the social safety net (implied, for those who deserve it), rejecting GOP rhetoric from Reagan to Ryan
Martin
@PsiFighter37: Bloomberg’s tax plan is more aggressive than Bidens. Similar in a number of ways – repealing the Trump tax cuts but also adding a 5% surtax on income over $5M. There are some other details that actually make Bloomberg look more progressive on taxes.
Barbara
@PsiFighter37: He was a better team player in 2016. He is horrified by Trump. I don’t want him as the nominee but I don’t think he’s the enemy.
Ken
@Baud: The problem with shock acts is that they get old quick.
Kent
@PsiFighter37: I agree. Bloomberg is no fool. He knows the chance that ANY tax reform much less a new wealth tax getting through the next Congress is worse than a snowball’s chance in hell. If there is one thing Bloomberg and his set know how to do is quietly neuter that sort of thing without getting their hands dirty. Look how many times the carried interest tax break gets brought up and quietly gets knifed with no fingerprints to know who did it.
There is no chance this thing is an Elizabeth Warren-generated temper tantrum.
Gin & Tonic
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Late to the party, but please jog my memory: when’s the last time anybody gave a shit about what Katrina Vanden Heuvel thought about anything?
Redshift
@germy:
That insult is the verbal equivalent of an elementary school slap fight. And suggests that Gorka does not own a mirror.
Bluehill
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I forgot about that. Important point – I get to keep my socialism and be racist. Win – win.
Jeffro
…as they would (potentially) affect Bloomberg himself. He’s said that he definitely IS concerned that the wealth tax and M4A will be a drag on the nominee (ie, if it’s Sanders or Warren) and the country cannot afford another 4 years of trumpov.
So…what you said, sorta ;)
MP
@Ken: Except for the ones that go on for years until they expire of lung cancer.
janesays
@Baud: It’s low in the sense that there was high expectation that it would potentially be record breaking, or at least would possibly be on par with the 2008 turnout.
senyordave
The only candidate I favor Bloomberg over is Sanders. But…
Bloomberg hates Trump and is willing to spend a lot to stop him. He is very smart and very quick on the draw. I went to Johns Hopkins and from what I’ve heard he works very hard, understands that he needs to surround himself with other smart people, and wants advisers who will tell him when he is wrong. He has the stop and frisk thing, but all the other candidates have some negatives. I love warren, but she mad a major miscalculation by ending up lumped in with Bernie as a far left. She isn’t far left, but the MFA thing is an albatross around her neck (and she compounded it by giving detailed plans on how to pay for it). Biden is too slow, IMO other than an occasional zinger he won’t be prepared for the full GOP press when they move to destroy him and his whole family. I don’t see Mayor Pete, he has no experience that says he is POTUS material at this point and he is not inspirational like Obama. Klobuchar? If you are essentially unknown to most voters at this point it isn’t happening.
When Bloomberg got in I thought maybe a couple percent possibility. Now I’m thinking he has a line of sight that is plausible. I love warren, but if you told me she had a 50% chance of beating Trump and Bloomberg had a 60% chance, I’d have to go with Bloomberg.
TS (the original)
Election results should give up on technology. Steve Kornacki tried to show the latest results from Iowa & couldn’t get his magical screen to work.
prostratedragon
@germy:
Olivia DeHaviland (1916) and Norman Lloyd (1914) are also still around.
janesays
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Of course he could have done more, but that’s true for any of them. I think it’s pretty naive to believe that Mitt Romney alone would have been able to do anything meaningful with regard to Barr’s presentation of the Mueller Report. If he had come out and said, “It didn’t say what Barr said it does”, he just would have been written off as an apostate RINO… as he is being written off right now.
MisterForkbeard
@Jeffro: For some reason, I thought Bloomberg also supported a (smaller) wealth tax.
Kent
Iowa results are off the NYT front page, even before they became final.
Heh, the Bernie and Buttigieg folks are not going to be happy with how fast Iowa is slipping into the memory hole.
Mnemosyne
@Nicole:
Did you ever see “Almost Famous”?
The groupies were all played by women in their 20s, but in reality they were all girls between 14 and 16.
That was the reality in the 1970s, and ANY male pop or rock star you admire from the 1960s to the 1980s almost certainly had sex with multiple underage girls. All. Of. Them.
Sab
@senyordave: He is almost 80 years old.
Jinchi
I think it’s funny that Murkowski and Collins were so offended when Schiff pointed out that Trump was threatening to “put their heads on a pike” if they voted against him.
And now he’s writing up an enemies list, getting Romney dis-invited from CPAC and demanding that Romney be expelled from the party.
Another Scott
Good for Rmoney.
In other news, GovExec:
Good, good. And far past time.
But more needs to be done.
Cheers,
Scott.
janesays
CAVEAT: for a midterm. 2018 turnout was 49.3% of eligible voters, and it was the highest turnout percentage-wise in a midterm election since 1914, when 50.3% participated.
But it was still far below the turnout of nearly every presidential election of the last century, which have all exceeded 50% turnout since 1928.
mayim
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Possibly on the Mormon racism.
But ~ unlike southern/suburban evangelicals ~ many Mormon have lived in another culture during their missionary years, which I think does have some impact.
The Mormons* I know have never liked Trump, but the border issues with separation of families has a couple of them beyond livid. Contradicts what they believe and they just can’t reconcile those policies with anything they are willing to support.
* Those here in Maine tend to be pretty open-minded, while those I know through genealogy tend to be fairly fact-based in many ways, after years of evaluating genealogical evidence.
Citizen Alan
@Baud:
It would be ironic if Bloomberg won and then turned into FDR 2.0 — a wealthy man who’s decided to turn class traitor and promotes all the policies that Rose Twitter claims to want but has no idea how to get.
Jay
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: There’s truly never a bad time for this. And now it’s actually on topic.
Yutsano
@Another Scott: Honestly that took too long to get on the agenda. But it really is about damn time they try to reverse Dubya’s pathetic attempt to make the USPS go broke so the pension fund could be made private.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Gin & Tonic:
She herself? I don’t know. If she were fell into a manhole on her way out of Ari Melber’s studio, I and most people probably wouldn’t notice. But 40,000 thousand people in Iowa just voted for a candidate who thinks and talks the way she does about a lot of issues, and he’s currently leading in New Hampshire by a large margin.
Gin & Tonic
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Probably just a coincidence, I suppose, that she’s married to a guy who’s been a “fellow traveler” since before Wilmer went to Moscow for his honeymoon.
janesays
@Immanentize: I don’t think Buttigieg has much shot of winning this thing, but it seems a little premature to write his campaign obituary when he literally has more delegates than every other candidate as of this moment.
I’m holding off an declaring any of the four leading candidates campaigns over until at least after Nevada. If Buttigieg does decent in New Hampshire (at least a strong third place finish) and doesn’t nosedive in Nevada, he’s still in it.
janesays
John’s McCain’s thumb that saved the ACA from repeal by one vote disagrees.
Sab
@mayim: Gladys Knight and a couple of the Pips lived in Las Vegas and became Mormon.
mdblanche
I was out all day and deliberately ignoring the news so I’m just finding out about Romney now. I’m honestly shocked. I really didn’t think he had it in him. I lived in Mass. for most of his governorship and he really did seem one of the most craven politicians I’d ever seen. I’m still trying to figure out if he has an angle here because I just can’t wrap my mind around the idea he doesn’t have one. Still, credit where it’s due. Becoming the first senator ever to vote to remove a president of their own party is no small thing. A hundred people wrote the first line of their obituaries today and Romney’s is going to read better than any other Republican’s. So really, if he could do it what excuse are the rest of them using?
janesays
@MisterForkbeard: Sanders is polling highest among African-American voters after Biden. Hard to see Biden’s black voters going to Sanders, but who knows?
clay
@Kent:
You know, at this point in 2016, I felt exactly like this. I did NOT want Hillary to run, and I wasn’t impressed with Sanders. I thought both of them had real weaknesses that could hurt them in the general. I was so meh about it, I didn’t even vote in the primary.
But I knew I’d support the nominee in November, no question about it. And I grew to really admire Clinton, and was very enthusiastic about her by the summer.
And I suspect all of this will happen again. I just wish Democrats would learn to focus on the positive aspect of each candidate — and they all have some! — and not take this shit so damn personal.
Jinchi
@PsiFighter37: Bloomberg got in the campaign because he thought that Biden was blowing it and he didn’t want Bernie or Warren taking the prize. When he announced Warren was polling a strong second to Biden and had been surging for months. Bernie was in third place.
And for a guy who doesn’t care about Warren’s wealth tax, he sure did spend an awful lot of time attacking the idea.
Those of us whose wealth is in their homes can tell you that’s simply not true.
Jinchi
Current results show Buttigieg with 11, Bernie with 11 and Warren with 5.
Bluehill
@clay: I thought in 2016 that Hillary needed to offer reasons to vote for her rather than to not to vote for Trump, which IMO was the primary message of her campaign. This year that may be enough, but given the perception issues that each of the frontrunners seem to have I’m not sure.
NotMax
Remember, remember, the 5th of February. The day the United States Senate voted to secede from the Constitution.
Bill Arnold
@TS (the original):
Jack Dorsey is a Democrat, well a Tulsi Gabbard/Andrew Yang Democrat. And he controls the keys to D.J. Trump’s twitter account. In a sense he has DJT by the balls, should he decide to .. squeeze, due to repeated policy violations. Twitter is a public company so the decision might not last long. But it’s free enterprise and they have the right.
Czanne
@?BillinGlendale, @Goku (aka American Baka)
Eh, it’s complicated.
Joseph & Emma Smith were way more egalitarian & abolitionist * (and the Reformed LDS/Community of Christ maintained that) but Brigham Young was an unrepentant racist & slaver.
There were at least two black men in the upper priesthoods while Joseph Smith was alive, but after 1848, when Young took control, that ended. But 1848 to late 1860s is when most of the very bad doctrine came into existence.
*for the 1840s.
James E Powell
@HalfAssedHomesteader:
To be honest, of the four Guilty! votes from Jones, Manchin, Romney, and Sinema, Manchin’s surprises me the most. I’ve grown to expect nothing but the worst from him. Sorry Joe!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jinchi:
That’s not the Federal government, the Constitution does limit what kind of taxes that Congress can levy.
Kent
@janesays: Black voters are not monolithic any more than white voters are. The educated young ‘woke’ black Sanders supporters you find in big cities like Los Angeles and New York are not the same as the middle aged black women in South Carolina who support Biden.
I don’t think it is is safe to assume any candidate is going to attract any other group by default. I assume most black voters are like everyone else here, looking for a winner most of all. Honestly they probably have a bigger stake in the outcome than most of us.
SFAW
@Bluehill:
She did. The MSM — most especially the FTFTFNYT — had other priorities, so her platform, etc., was a “non-person” for much of the campaign.
It wasn’t. But even if it had been, that was a plenty effing good reason. I have often mentioned the (allegedly) Dem voter, interviewed by NPR, who said (more or less) “Give me a reason to vote for Hillary, without saying ‘Donald Trump” or “the Supreme Court.’ ” In other words, she was a moron.
“May be”? It fucking well better be.
James E Powell
@Steeplejack:
Never forget, Kirk Douglas saved us from Burt Lancaster’s coup d’etat.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@SFAW: I thought all Hillary had was an email server. //
Martin
@Jinchi: My concern regarding a wealth tax isn’t that it’s unconstitutional or somehow a bridge too far, but I’m a person of moderate wealth and if I wanted to make my wealth go invisible I could, with shocking ease. I can’t hide what I earn nearly so easily.
All policy choices have a behavioral cost. For things like sin taxes, that’s the whole point – tax cigarettes so people stop smoking, but make sure you don’t forget to tax cigars or vapes, or they’ll just substitute. The behavioral costs of a wealth tax is pretty significant and also pretty poorly understood, I don’t really know how you would stop it, and the cost might wind up being worse than the benefit. I trust Warren has thought these things out, but she’s not a queen, and none of this gets done without Congress, and Congress will never get a novel system like that right. They understand earned and unearned income, though.
I actually like the concept of a wealth tax, but I have no idea how you implement it directly. You can’t hide a house with an address, but you can hide cash – very easily, in fact.
Miss Bianca
@mayim: I never, ever imagined I would be making political or social hay with the Mormons. And yet…as they say…here we are.
Kent
@Czanne: Yes. The Southern Baptist church itself was formed in support of slavery and the white Evangelical church today is a direct legacy of 150 years of white Baptist theological support for insurrection, secession, and segregation all in the name of white supremacy. The church chose to become a tool of a wider societal project of white supremacy. It continues to this day in the guise of the Republican Party.
The Mormon church in Utah and elsewhere has an entirely different theological and social history. Yes there were racist church policies dating to the 1800s. Which doesn’t make it at all unusual. The State of Oregon was founded as a white supremacist whites-only state during that same exact time period. But modern day Mormons are mostly fairly worldly and sophisticated compared to southern Evangelicals. Especially today when it comes to welcoming Hispanics and immigrants into the church. My own limited experience with Mormons is that they are not remotely as racist as typical southern Evangelicals. While acknowledging that they are probably no better than most ordinary white people.
For example, as I posted before on another thread. One of the smartest people I have ever known was a Mormon girl I went to HS with who went on to BYU, Harvard Law, Fulbright in Latin America, and is now a BYU law professor who every summer leads groups of BYU law students down to the Texas border detention centers to provide legal assistance to detained refugees with asylum claims. With the support of the church. Try to imagine ANY evangelical law professor from Liberty University or Regent’s Law School doing that.
I’m an atheist and find all of it repellent. But if we are going to grade on a curve then my own experience is that the Mormons I have known are more educated, worldly, and less dogmatically stupid and racist than the Evangelicals I have known. And I know plenty of them in my own extended family.
Uncle Cosmo
@Redshift: Seborrhea Dorka does not have a reflection in a mirror.
That fucking fascist deserves to be found in a dumpster. I’m sure there are some choice Hungarian epithets for the worthless bastard.
LongHairedWeirdo
@janesays:
That is a clear, cogent, good-faith counterexample, in some alternate universe where Mitt’s vote prevented the disaster (the acquittal), just as McCain’s prevented a disaster (loss of the ACA).
If you’re trolling, you suck at trolling. If you’re trying to hold a conversation, you suck at holding conversations.
Anne Laurie
Warren’s proposed wealth tax seems to have been the final straw. But Bloomberg’s been flirting with a presidential run for as long as I’ve been commenting on this blog, and he’s not getting any younger. As others have pointed out, he and Trump hate each other at a very visceral level.
Once Trump was installed in the Oval Office, I think Mike’s frugal sensibilities were just overbalanced by a general sense of, Well, f*ck, if that spray-painted pantless grifter and serial bankrupt can do it…
Kent
@Martin: My concern with a wealth tax is minimal because the chance of it happening in my lifetime is pretty dang slim. And if we are going to prioritize liberal priorities from health care, climate change, green infrastructure, education, social justice, immigration, voting rights, women’s choice, environmental protection, etc. etc. then it is going to be pretty far down on the most urgent to-do list of the next administration no matter who is running it.
Even assuming a 60 vote Senate majority we are still only going to get one or two big bites at the legislative apple. Tilting at windmills with a wealth tax is just not going to be the top project of any president.
bluehill
@SFAW: Yeah, I could definitely be guilty of fighting the last war. It seems obvious (to me) that Hillary would have been far more effective and honorable in almost every way vice Trump, except if you’re an oligarch, but apparently it wasn’t apparent enough to the people in the places where it really mattered.
Another Scott
@Martin:
NewYorker from January 31, 2019:
She and her team have obviously thought long and hard about the issues.
More at the link.
Cheers,
Scott.
bluehill
@Kent:
@Martin: This is why I think it’s easier to run on repealing the Trump tax cuts. They haven’t led to more jobs, increased the deficit and disproportionately benefited the wealthy at the expense of social programs that helped those with real needs. In addition, it seems that the majority of voters don’t like them.
Anne Laurie
Much as I hate to say it, Bloomberg’s quite good at that capturing-the-narrative stuff. He’s in no way media-friendly, they don’t like him, but he’s smart enough to spend the money required to hire the best professional publicists to get *his* story on the front page. E.g., nobody in the media wanted to let him get away with changing the rules so he could have a third term as mayor… but nothing they could throw at him stopped him from getting that third term. (And, IIRC, spending much of it reminding the Media Village Idiots that he’d pantsed them.)
I’m not entirely sure Bloomberg can buy the Democratic nomination, much less the presidency. (Although if he does pull off the first, he’ll have a much easier time getting to the WH than a lot of our more plausible candidates.) But he’ll cut a deal with somebody, before or during the convention, and if that deal works, that might be enough for him.
lurker3000
@Mnemosyne:
I honestly don’t get your point here. I was 19? in 1978. I don’t know of anyone in my peer group (then or now) who would think it was ok for an older man to sleep with a 14 yr old simply because it happened all the time. Maybe it was the ‘norm,’ but it didn’t make it ok even then. Consent of course has a lot to do with any situation. But there is an argument that children (and 14 is often very much unformed and half in child territory) are not able to adequately be consenting in uneven power situations. Kirk Douglas was a good actor. If he was raping women and/or sleeping with girls who were 14, that is still not ok even if it happened a lot “in the 70s.” Ditto Bowie. Does it invalidate their art? People have different opinions on that. But you appear to be saying it was common and so no big deal. Still a big deal, not matter who does it. If I am misunderstanding your point, pls explain.
Kent
@bluehill: I think every single Dem candidate is running on repealing the Trump Tax Cuts. That’s a no-brainer.
Matt McIrvin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The first time I realized racism could be a distinct, coherent ideology rather than a vague dislike was on my school bus when I was in the third or fourth grade, talking to a Mormon kid who explained to me at length that black people were just no good–you always saw them at “mob scenes”.
I think Spencer Kimball’s revelation that black people were eligible for full church participation was the following year.
These days, Mormons seem to be less racist than most white American conservatives. I don’t suppose they’ll retract all the patriarchal stuff though.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Elton John.
Mnemosyne
@lurker3000:
“Common” and “no big deal” are not synonyms. Not to sound like everyone’s mom, but just because everyone else is doing it doesn’t make it right.
I’m more saying that it was (and still is, to some extent) a very common thing in the entertainment industry. Woody Allen is not an anomaly except to the extent that he was preying on a young girl inside his own family. ?
And “groupie” culture really was a thing in the 1970s. Pamela Des Barres has a really interesting book about it. Young girls were making bad decisions — in some cases, decisions that shortened their lives — but they did have some amount of agency.
Bottom line: if someone is going to stop listening to Bowie’s music because he had sex with a 14-year-old, they’re pretty much going to have to stop listening to all music from that time period, because that behavior was rampant. That doesn’t mean it was right, or no big deal, but it’s not realistic to say that all of their work must be shunned because they all did the same bad shit.
Bowie was a very complicated guy who made many bad decisions in his life, and he would probably be the first to tell anyone to avoid the terrible things he did. FWIW, he also seemed to gain at least some insight into what he had done and made an effort to do better.
leeleeFL
@Mnemosyne: As I contemplate my Country’s descent into Banana Republic status, I have just a few things to be eternally grateful for…Adam Schiff and his fellow House members who laid out the case in the Senate. Amash, for saying the truth as he saw it and damn the consequences. And Senator Mitt Romney….nothing will make me regret my vote for Barack Obama, but I will keep a place for Mitt in my collection of heroes. Doing the right thing is easy, I have heard. It’s knowing what the right thing is that’s hard. Mitt knew….and did not shirk his duty.
Uncle Cosmo
@James E Powell: Maybe you should stop listening to what Manchin says & pay attention to what he does. Whenever his vote’s been needed, it’s been there – even on issues that the WV whackjobs would crucify him for. He’s been a helluva lot better Democrat than we have any right to expect from that benighted state that my parents fled 80 years ago.
Uncle Cosmo
@Martin: I’d like to know what happened to the idea of a transfer tax on the sale of assets like stocks & bonds. Something small enough percentagewise that it wouldn’t be a barrier to normal sales but large enough that it kept the goddamned trading programs from jumping on every 0.0001% profit at the speed of light.
msb
Yes, good for Mitt – as well as Doug Jones, Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema. I have to admit that Romney really turned the story around by ripping of the “it’s just partisanship” excuse. And he actually appeared to choke up during his Senate speech, and said “before God” in a tone that I actually believed. Plus, this will drive trump crazy.
Dupe1970
@batguano: Good luck! I’m in 3.5 campaign and this Saturday we investigate more of Slaughtergarde…..
Dupe1970
@Baud: Close. It was about Obama calling an event and “act of terror” rather than using “terrorism”….
J R in WV
@Mnemosyne:
While your comment about groupies in the rock and roll scenes of the 60s, 70s, etc. is true, there were a lot of young girls chasing rock stars, that isn’t the same as violent rape of an unwilling young girl.
Maybe I’m nuts, but when girls are chasing members of a touring superstar rock band to party (and have sex) with them, it seems way more acceptable than holding down a screaming, struggling and unwilling young girl to rape her.
I played in a jazz combo, we didn’t have groupies, so sad!
lurker3000
@Mnemosyne:
Thanks. Makes more sense. I was reading common as no big deal, incorrectly. Girls do make stupid mistakes. Lot of my issues have to do with the age of the girls vs. the age/supposed judgment of older men. A lot of girls threw themselves at rock stars and were dumb. Still a 50/50 thing. Men could have some sense and sensitivity, especially the older ones. Often however they seem to feel it means it’s not their fault at all. Not all men, but many men who have ego trips going.
ETA: agree with diff between rape and groupie stupidities. But sadly groupie culture may have often verged on rape in a lot of cases. If even in 2017 (?), a younger male gets a free pass when he rapes (in my opinion) a girl who is unconscious due to alcohol, it’s still a real cultural problem.