This is apparently the Twitter account of the woman who was shot and killed at the Capitol today… pic.twitter.com/46BKMXMpSQ
— philip lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) January 7, 2021
The story of military leader Jeanne d’Arc is very stirring, but the Dominican Sisters who taught my parochial high school were careful to remind us that it ends with Charles on the throne and Jeanne abandoned to die by torture at the hands of the opposition. “CommonAshSense” seems to have truly believed that, draped in a Trump flag, she was called to shove (or be shoved) to the front of the mob attempting to break into the House chamber… but the videos are just this side of suicide-by-cop. Much is being made of her status as a veteran; I know Air Force is not infantry, but surely at some point she must have been introduced to the concept that righteous intent does not make one bullet-proof?
GRAPHIC FOOTAGE: Police fatally shoot a Trump supporter inside the Capitol building. This is a sickening crime that should be prosecuted as such. pic.twitter.com/X8JK7HplJ7
— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) January 7, 2021
This is Ashli Babbitt — the woman shot inside the Capitol building yesterday…pic.twitter.com/M4cbcGPhRh
— Rex Chapman?? (@RexChapman) January 7, 2021
Moreover, why the sympathy towards someone who died violently attacking the Capitol expressly in support of an ideology that calls for mass executions and prison camps based on fanatical devotion to a dictator?
Would be we waxing sympathetic for a Nazi?https://t.co/XTf8KsF1Im
— SacredLandslideHat (@Popehat) January 7, 2021
Discussions about when/how/why police use lethal force have to be constant if you truly want to keep fascism at bay. A horrendously dangerous anti-Semitic cult whose ideology has spread as virulently as COVID gained a martyr yesterday.
— Zeddy (@Zeddary) January 7, 2021
Three insurrectionists died of a heart attack, a stroke, and a crush injury, @pbmelendez reports https://t.co/vv2tLb2Qtj
— Justin Miller (@justinjm1) January 7, 2021
Her fellow ‘martyrs’:
… Authorities did identify four individuals who died, including an Alabama sales representative who tweeted COVID-19 cure hoaxes and a Georgia woman who was reportedly crushed in the crowd.
Benjamin Philips, 50, from Pennsylvania; Kevin Greeson, 55, from Alabama; and Rosanne Boyland, 34, from Georgia died on Wednesday after suffering “medical emergencies” while “on the grounds of the Capitol,” Metropolitan Police Department Chief Robert Contee said…
While authorities haven’t provided details on the medical emergencies, Greeson’s son said his father died from a heart attack mid-protest. Boyland died after being crushed by the crowd, according to one report, while Philips had a stroke, fellow protesters said…
The New York Times reported Greeson collapsed while speaking to his wife on the phone among a crowd of fellow Trump supporters on the west side of the Capitol building. Emergency personnel rushed over to help the father-of-five and began to perform chest compressions—but were unable to revive him, the report states.
His wife, Kristie Greeson, told the Times her husband—who suffered from high blood pressure—was excited to attend the Trump rally because he believed the election had been stolen from the president…
In an interview with News 11 Alive, one of Boyland’s sisters described her as a “really happy, wonderful person” and shared a photo of her smiling with a tattoo across her chest that says, “Beautiful Disaster.”
The Kennesaw, Georgia resident had a slew of run-ins with the law. Court records indicate she pleaded guilty to heroin and cocaine charges as well as receiving stolen property in 2011. Boyland was also charged with heroin possession or distribution at least four other times in Fulton and Cobb counties, in addition to battery charges, obstruction of law enforcement, and trespass over the years….
Philips, a Pennsylvania computer programmer, died of a stroke, just hours after driving a white van to the rally and coordinating transport for several of his fellow Trump supporters, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer.
According to the Inquirer, he’d said before the protest, “It seems like the first day of the rest of our lives, to be honest… They should name this year Zero because something will happen.”…
At least they’ll avoid *this* indignity…
Capitol rioters could face up to 10 years in prison under Trump monument executive order https://t.co/8z5GVePnbS
— Fox News (@FoxNews) January 7, 2021
We're not asking for you to shoot them like you shoot us.
We're asking you to NOT shoot us like you don't shoot them.— Tye Winters, DO, FACOP, FAAP (@tmswDO) January 7, 2021
Elizabelle
WaPost not allowing comments on stories about Babbitt, because readers are not sympathetic to her. At all.
HumboldtBlue
Here’s a traitor Karen eating a straight right, and here she is after eating that straight right.
Edmund Dantes
There’s a different video that shows those cops seen yelling at the ending we’re just standing around doing nothing. Had calmly walked up the stairs. Didn’t point guns at anyone or yell to disperse or anything. Kind of just looked lost. They were then in process of “noping” out of there when she starts pushing through the window. Then is shot. They rush to offer her aid. No yelling at her to show hands. No yelling at her to stop moving. No rush to cuff her before rendering aid.
Chetan Murthy
Watching Rachel Maddow tonight. She’s got Timothy Snyder on. She talked about how yesterday was a good day: it taught the fascists what they can get away with. A good day for Trump, too. Not finished watching, but it meshes with what I concluded last night: which is, we have 4yr to fix this, or we’re going to be back in the shit. And even that assumes that we make it to 20 Jan safely.
On this fucker Ash Babbitt: If her name were Jake Dipshit, no “normie” would be shedding ONE FUCKING TEAR. She’s getting sympathy because she’s a woman, and (‘m guessing) a somewhat attractive blonde woman. FUCK THAT. If feminism is about anything it is about the idea that women can do ANYTHING, and that includes being EVIL. When a woman commits evil acts like a man does, we need to view them, and her, the same as if she were a man.
I hope she’s finding out how much the 9/11 hijackers like the hell to which they’ve been consigned.
Mike in NC
Sounds like the next impeachment of Fat Bastard is coming up very soon.
HumboldtBlue
@Elizabelle:
Even the most strident military glorifier can’t dance around this one.
The reaction is interesting.
edmund dantes
https://youtu.be/AZ9oThRuMVs
This is the video I am talking about. Look at how little these cops are doing in comparison to a BLM protest.
Martin
From the end of the previous thread:
Brad Heath (Reuters reporter) saying that what he’s hearing from current US attorneys is that they are going to take a very expansive view of criminal liability for the insurrectionists.
So, I was thinking that charging them with insurrection might be in the cards, but lawyers seem to think that seditious conspiracy is the likely charge:
It’s a bit easier to sell to juries because the whole theme of the event was to by force prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of federal law. It covers their motive, and they don’t get to fall back on the defense of ‘we didn’t intend to overthrow the government’, because that’s not necessary for the charge of sedition.
For hanger-ons, they could be charged for unlawful activities on Capitol grounds. 6 months to 5 years depending on whether they used a weapon (even an improvised one). And they could face multiple charges for theft, destruction of property, etc.
And federal charges are no fucking joke, even if you’re only facing 6 months.
I don’t think the Biden DOJ will use the Trump monuments statute for various reasons. It seems to trivialize the act that was actually committed and simultaneously be too punitive for what is effectively a charge of vandalism. 10 years for sedition seems to much better communicate the wrongdoing and is a more suitable sentence. Plenty of time to deprogram away from OANN.
Elizabelle
Wow. That Rex Chapman tweet with the late and rather unlamented Ashli Babbitt. Shrieking ugliness.
I am not sorry that voice is stilled. We need less of that, very honestly.
Was seeing her described as “outspoken” by friends and relatives. That turns out to be a euphemism.
The whackjobs in the military — or military-adjacent — are a whole ‘nother world. And they think they’re especially informed and trained. Talk about legends in their own mind.
(I am not speaking of the non-insane military.)
Martin
@HumboldtBlue: Not a traitor Karen. Therese Duke, identified by her daughter.
Say their names.
NotMax
About a hundred times more spotlight than they merit. Leaping to figuratively picking through the unmentionables drawers of the deceased is macabre.
IMHO.
Martin
@HumboldtBlue: I should add, that was a hell of punch. Tyson would be impressed with that punch.
Mag
From Politico:
I do not think the danger has passed.
Viva BrisVegas
“United States Capitol Police have confirmed that one of their officers has died as a result of injuries sustained during riots at the Capitol. USCP Officer Brian D. Sicknick was injured while physically engaging with protesters.”
This may change the narrative a bit. So much for Blue Lives Matter.
HumboldtBlue
@Martin:
Good point, Therese got yoked.
That’s a good Joe Frazier straight right.
edmund dantes
Police Actions Before Attack on Capitol Backfired Spectacularly (msn.com)
In a letter to federal officials on Monday, Washington Mayor Muriel Bowser urged federal law enforcement to maintain a light footprint for Wednesday’s protests, seeking to avoid the type of show of force that had inflamed tense situations in the city last year.
They are going to try to pin some of this on the black female mayor of DC. Repugnant Fuckers!
Chetan Murthy
@edmund dantes: wait, wut? I’d read in multiple other places that Mayor Bowser had been asking for more federal LEO backup since 31 Dec.
Elizabelle
NY Times. Ashli was a charmer.
And like her idol Trump, in ways large and small.
Mask free autonomous zone. She sounds nice.
Martin
@NotMax: Something that needs to happen here is lay bare who did this and what they did, in clear terms.
The great american myth that conservatives are inherently law abiding, that whites are inherently law abiding, that these insurrectionists are generally wealthy middle class whites – teachers, small business owners, lawyers, ex military, and so on is important. You can’t counter the ‘POC are criminals’ mythos by downplaying white criminals. You can’t address ‘none dare call them terrorists’ without laying bare that there’s a fucking lot of white terrorists that look just like your neighbor.
And you can’t downplay this as a bunch of Karens got drunk and trespassed. This was a longstanding, long planned, organized effort to interfere in US democracy. Basically the kind of thing we would declare war over if it didn’t come from Arkansas. That they’re just disillusioned facebook moms isn’t relevant. Lots of jihadists are disillusioned facebook teens, and we don’t pull our punches with them, and we sure as shit go through their underwear drawer.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
This
@Elizabelle:
She sounded stark raving mad. Ranting and raving. *Shudder
Comrade Colette
What a fucking traitorous jackshit.
Serious question: Babbitt was a veteran. Like all members of the military, she swore an oath to uphold the Constitution. She violated that oath. I’m pleased that she will no longer be eligible for veterans benefits, and I think every veteran in this seditious mob should lose all such benefits forever. Is there a legal way to do that?
Mag
@Comrade Colette:
From Military.com:
Oops.
Martin
@Chetan Murthy: Asking for a federal presence but not Lafayette Square is eminently reasonable.
Among other things she would know is that even a light presence would mean that all approvals for federal LEO would be in place so if they needed to call in more support, they wouldn’t have to wait an hour and a half for someone to grant it. And it wouldn’t need to be a call from DC major to fed LEO, it could be from fed LEO to their boss to send backup.
These are little administrative tricks you learn. It’s a lot of work to get the first federal officer, but all the ones after that are easy. It gives you options which you can exercise later.
CaseyL
@Comrade Colette: Is there a way of finding out whether military pensions have a clause about, oh, attempting to overthrow the government; or about breaking into government buildings with intent? If so, that should do it.
Comrade Colette
@Mag: Excellent. This will apply to Dump’s federal pension, also, too, right?
Martin
@Mag: Yeah, the added benefit of the sedition or insurrection charge is they’re ineligible to hold office, so we don’t need to worry about white dipshits from South Carolina sending them to the House 6 months after they are released from federal custody.
Chetan Murthy
@Martin: Not disagreeing with you, but …. that’s not what that MSN article claims about her letter. Which, natch, we don’t get to see, so …. Something still smelly fishy.
HumboldtBlue
Law enforcement, military, the profile fits for this.
edmund dantes
@Chetan Murthy: That’s the point I am making. They are going to try to pin her on this via that letter. Whereas I bet her letter was more what Martin was laying out.
Also, it’s a Wall Street Journal article via MSN so it gets around the paywall.
Elizabelle
@edmund dantes: It’s a WSJ article, via MSN. Bowser did request National Guard support; believe plan was for them to direct traffic, etc. to free up the Metro police for policing. Where it seems to have fallen apart is the US Capitol Police did not request National Guard assistance.
Yes: from January 4 article in WaPost:
National Guard activated for D.C. protests, with more restraints than in June, officials say
So you can see how this is actually true, about the lighter footprint, but she didn’t realize the US Capitol was not sufficiently staffed.
I guess ‘cuz it was forecast to be their type of crowd. Patriots. White peeps. Wrapped in Blue Lives Matter flags and logos.
LongHairedWeirdo
I can understand someone saying that she got what she deserved, but she didn’t. Many conservatives would say that she got what she deserved (if you described the episode without the specific context), but they’re wrong about a *boatload* of stuff. If she agreed with the aforementioned “many conservatives”, that might make her death *ironic*, but it wouldn’t make it *right*.
AJ - Mustard Search & Rescue Team
Just again want to say how grateful I am for all of you and our little community here. Big part of what sanity I have ??
edmund dantes
Also want to make clear I don’t think the Mayor did anything wrong, but you can see already how they are going to try to hang people like her out to dry. That sentence was given to or written up that way deliberately to put the shadow on “look the mayor requested lighter presence”.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo: She participated in a coup to overturn our lawful government, attack and murder our legislators. She got *precisely* what she deserved. Fuuuuck, the minute they cops shot her (after she breached a protective barrier), they administered first aid. They shoulda let her bleed out.
Chetan Murthy
@edmund dantes: Heh, you convinced me already at “WSJ article”. I hadn’t noticed that. WSJ. The news side has been rotting for years, since Rupert purchased the rag. Just another propaganda outlet.
Kent
Mayor of Washington DC has no authority or jurisdiction over the Capitol. She was probably talking about Federal cops out in DC neighborhoods.
patrick II
From TPM:
Trump was very interested and involved and had done planning, just not on the side that Dr. Cohn presumes.
cain
Cruz and Hawley are so much more in trouble now.
Kent
Well yeah. I assume she won’t get benefits anymore because she is dead. That’s one sure way to end them.
Danielx
I suspect that a lot of those people who treated this like a destructive school field trip are going to be surprised when humorless men wearing earpieces and such show up at their doors with arrest warrants in the next few weeks.
CaseyL
@Kent: Comrade Collette was referring to revoking the pension of any other veterans who were in that mob. There were definitely more than a few and, alas, they didn’t all die.
On a happier note, I watched Biden’s introduction of the people he’s (hoping to) appoint to the DOJ, and it lifted my spirits considerably. A LOT of emphasis on civil rights and voting rights, with a LOT of unstated intent to clean out the DOJ top to bottom.
Biden’s gotten some criticism of appointing old hands instead of bright young things, but I think it’s excellent strategy to bring back so many people who previously worked at Justice, know the people,know the ropes, and sound like they’re absolutely determined to repair, rebuild, and be a kick-ass institution.
Kent
They will be if it turns out that their MAGA staffs were in any way coordinating with the rioters and insurrectionists. Which is quite possible. In fact likely.
I expect there are some MAGA filth in Congress, especially staffers, who are very busy right now purging their electronic profiles of any connection to this.
Chetan Murthy
@CaseyL:
I listened to his entire remarks today, and yeah, that jumped out. It was a …. warm foreshadowing of what hopefully will be great deeds starting in a few months.
CaseyL
@Kent:
There’s this little thing called computer forensics…
Kent
Got it. Yeah, no. Your pension is like any other personal asset like a 401(k). They can’t normally take it. Maybe in a civil lawsuit but pensions are usually immune from lawsuits and civil damages as well, just like social security. All they can do is follow the normal sentencing.
That said, defending a Federal felony trial is serious fucking and expensive business and likely to lose a bunch of these people their careers. They will pay plenty if they get the book thrown at them.
Mary G
There needs to be a lot of investigation of why no backup came for the Capitol Police for so long. Who of the new guys at the Pentagon ordered a slow walk?
Saying that Babbitt’s shooting was unjustified pisses me off. They had put chairs up against the doors and had three guys defending the last corridor before the House chamber. She was being lifted up over the chairs through the broken window by a mob of who knows how many people.
Kent
Yeah, and deleting something off twitter, facebook, or gmail doesn’t mean it is actually gone.
If they used snapchat or phone stuff it will be harder to retrieve I think.
edmund dantes
@Mary G: The crazy thing is if you watch the video I posted above that is from a different angle from the one Anne used you can see a bunch of “Riot” cops just milling about. They did nothing to disperse the crowd.
You can even see them consult with a guy in a suit/ear piece and they had decided to start walking out. That is when the crowd went back to trying to get through the doors and window.
Why they did nothing at all in any way to stop it is very instructive.
Elizabelle
@edmund dantes: Did you read the whole article?
Because it’s very clear about failures in US — federal — response. Not DC Mayor Bowser. Where they go wrong is in not describing the “light footprint” as carefully as the WaPost did.
As Kent said, they also make clear that Mayor Bowser had no responsibility whatsoever for US Capitol grounds. Although, it was the Metro police that helped get that situation under control.
More federal issues:
[And that is when Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer were calling the governors of Virginia and Maryland, respectively, to beg for state National Guard help. As glass was already breaking.]
CaseyL
@Kent: My understanding is that anything that goes away from your device can be found. You can delete it from your device, but it’s still everywhere else.
Even on your own device, “deleted” items stick around in the memory for as long as there is room for them, until they get overwritten.
cain
@CaseyL:
Yep – there will be a world of hurt for any staffers and congressional folks if they were involved in any of the planning in this.
We might end up having some more openings in congress. Imagine if we they lost both Cruz and Hawley? Not sure who would replace them but if we kicked out Cruz that would be an excellent time for Beto to run for his seat. Hawley would just be replaced with another red stater – but his ambitions would be over.
edmund dantes
sigh… yes I read the whole article. I know she has no jurisdiction. I know she plays no role.
That is the fucking point. There is no reason to throw her in there in any way. But she is quite deliberately put there. First in the list when they start talking about things have changed since the Floyd protests. Then transitions to her letter asking for lighter touch.
It’s a framing device. To setup “hey liberals asked for this” including the Mayor.
It’s designed to be subtle (but it’s not subtle).
cain
@Kent:
I wonder if we get any of the folks from Project Veritas – I’m sure they were at that insurrection. The man has somehow avoided Federal scrutiny since Bush.
Elizabelle
@edmund dantes: I found it a very choppily written article. Informative, but it didn’t flow well at all.
Grateful to have read some WaPost reporting first, to put this one in context.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Chetan Murthy: the penalty for those actions should not be summary execution. Her shooting may have been “justified” under the law, but that doesn’t make it *right*.
That doesn’t mean I’m faulting the shooter – it only means that I’m saying the shooter, at best, was choosing lesser evils.
It’s important to understand that something can be reasonable in context, but still not *right*.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo: Oh, FUCK OFF with that bullshit. She was assaulting the protective detail of our lawmakers. OUR lawmakers. All she fucking had to do was not climb over those chairs to attack. That’s all.
So, y’know, fuck right off. She got better than she fucking deserved.
Dipshit, maybe you haven’t heard, but this was a fucking coup, and at the moment she was shot, our side, OUR SIDE, was hunkered-down, with very little protection, and THEY were looking to murder our people
SO FUCK OFF, DICKWEED.
cain
@CaseyL:
Thats also somewhat true of your old hard drives. The data is still there – it doesn’t get wiped. It just goes back into the ‘free space’ and it gets scribbled on again. So sometimes you can pierce together stuff even if its been scribbled on.
With these services, yes – it never really gets deleted. It gets ‘arcihved’.
edmund dantes
@LongHairedWeirdo: rushing a protective detail is one of the few things in this world that immediate response is “neutralize”. Those are your options.
Note the officer was insanely professional. One shot. Not blindly through a door or wall. Not without clearly seeing his target. Not emptying his magazine.
I would even wager money he was aiming center mass cause your desire is to “stop the assailant”. It’s not to be a hero and wing them in the knee or leg. It’s “neutralize”.
It literally was the right thing to do in those circumstances. Protecting the immediate next two people in line for the head of the US government pretty much puts it into you will not be given a chance to fuck around.
cain
@Chetan Murthy:
I don’t think such a disproportionate response was warranted.
Mallard Filmore
@Mary G:
Yeah, we don’t know enough yet. The mob brought pipe bombs and zip-ties. I have visions of how Saddam Hussein grabbed power. Calling hostages up one by one, to be led into a back room and shot.
All of Congress was assembled in one place. How convenient.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Chetan Murthy: Wow, you use naughty words! I’m in *awe* of your intellect, and concede that one certainly can’t argue with that level of reasoning.
Alas, once you start thinking people *deserve* to die, you are poisoning your own mind. Soon, you may find yourself arguing with people who think a death might be a lesser evil, but not a good; while showing all the wit and poise of a world class wanker.
cain
Pretty much most of the succession. VP, Speaker, and Leader were all holed up there.
Which really puts the incompetence of the Capitol Police in stark contrast.
Chetan Murthy
@cain: Right now? Sorry, man, you’re one of the good guys, so sure, I’ll be happy to be chided as much as you wish to, but it ain’t gonna stop me from jumping down the throat of any asshole who tries to pretend that coup participants, literal enemies of our democracy, deserve anything other than a swift trip to the hell where the 9/11 hijackers spend eternity.
Next year, sometime in August, we can agonize over the fates of the coup plotters. Today? When our Republic isn’t even out of danger yet? No fuckin’ way. Lots of us are unable to sleep, for fear of what we might wake up to.
Elizabelle
@edmund dantes: It looks like a justified shooting to me, too
And: she was security and police functions in the USAF. She had to know the threat she was posing. Woman was rioting.
Was watching San Diego’s Channel 8 stories about her. Her grieving uncle, holding back tears, still seems to have described her as “fanatical” in 3 separate instances.
She was a fanatic, coming through that window, with her hatred of Democratic politicians.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo: All right, Einstein, tell us what should have happened, as her militia hoisted her thru the hole they’d cut thru the barricades of the legislators’ protective details ?
Tell us. Really.
cain
@LongHairedWeirdo:
I think edmund dantes had a more articulate explanation on the need to use lethal force as a matter of duty and I guess expediency.
Also this woman was a veteran she should know better than to do what she did. Even if she has been heavily propagandized by Fox News, OAN and others – we can’t help that. It might be right in the sense of absolute morality – but her actions is equivalent of putting a gun to her own head and shooting herself.
LongHairedWeirdo
@edmund dantes: “the right thing to do, given the circumstances” does not bless the thing that is done.
I *agree* that, in the same situation, I might well have fired. That doesn’t make it good, or right! It might make it *necessary*, but not good, or right. I’m saying, essentially, never celebrate the lesser evil; celebrate only the good.
It’s perfectly reasonable to say “she didn’t deserve to *die*” without condemning the shooting. Lots of situations end up where people don’t get what they deserve, even if everyone is *trying* to obtain the best outcome possible.
edmund dantes
I mean seriously. This is post 9/11. Protective details are even less likely to be forgiven of random angry mob people rushing their protectees. Especiallys ones with backpacks, bulky clothing, or other ways things are concealed. Plus there is talk of pipe bombs over radios, knowledge of previous attempts to kidnap and summarily execute Gov Whitmer.
And we are going to sit here and tell a protective detail “hey guys, before you shoot someone trying to bash down the door and breach the protective bubble what their intents are, will they be just staying for tea or do they plan to explode an IED or chemical agent once they get close enough to their target”.. fuck no.
It was the right thing to do in those circumstances.
cain
@Chetan Murthy:
I think you’ve seen me as worked up as you are. :-) I absolutely understand where you are coming from and why you’ve just have no tolerance for this stuff.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo: Something you might wanna think about: the Mango Menace has dragged us back to when his reign appeared of indeterminate (and hence, unending) duration. Think about that. We thought we were finally out, but now he’s dragged us back there.
You think maybe, just maybe, that might make some people really, really, really angry?
So, y’know, maybe SHUT IT with this bullshit until we’re out of fucking danger.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Chetan Murthy: Because *you* asked? No. You’re not worth the bother.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo:
There ain’t no pacifists in the line to get loaded onto the cattle cars. Christ on a crutch.
Beautifulplumage
@LongHairedWeirdo: not sure why you want us to sympathize with the rioter who was killed breaching a heavily protected (well, usually) government building with so many key politicians in attendance. What is wrong with you? Fuck all treason weasels, and if the shoe fits….
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo: Ah, I see. A concern troll.
Elizabelle
Hey guys.
Let’s be glad we have two new US Senators from Georgia, both of whom won by more than 1% (I think 1.8% for Warnock) — so no recount.
Whatever happened to Ashli, that is one less Q Anon-er running around; tweeting and retweeting. I cannot be sad there.
She lived in Ocean Beach area of San Diego. Wonderful neighborhood; kind of bohemian and who knows what she thought of that.
To me, she lived in a beautiful area and could do nothing but gripe and complain.
And she is not going back. Because of her own actions.
cain
@LongHairedWeirdo:
This reasoning though has no real conclusion. We could apply that to every death that has ever happened other than perhaps old age.
I think I understand where you’re going with this but I think in the end it’s just poor choices that lead to death which you know happens quite often.
Mary G
You know, if I had a cop pointing a gun at me, and I’m sure yelling stop at me, I would stop. But again, everyone on those premises, and especially all the Capitol Police wandering around acting like tour guides in a museum (everything’ll be fine if you stay behind the ropes) – needs to answer a fuck of a lot of questions.
cain
This is a huge blessing, and I’m so happy that we FUCKED McConnell’s plans. Just like we will never forget 2016, McConnell is not going to ever forget 2021. Son of a bitch. I hope lice permanently finds a home in his hair.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo: Remember something else, too: This is a time when all of us are pinned-down like moths on some board. The virus has made movement, any sort of action, more dangerous. And even for those who are young and relatively safe from the virus, their families aren’t. We can’t even react, resist, without endangering our lives, our families’ lives.
Your concern for a coup-plotter is grotesque, when thousands of our countrymen are dying daily due to the actions of the man this coup was trying to install in another term. Grotesque.
LongHairedWeirdo
Yes, exactly correct. And if I were a soldier in a war, and I shot some poor momma’s son, who I’d probably quite like, if I met him over a beer rather than in a war zone, it might have been a matter of duty, and might even have been heroic.
But it doesn’t mean that poor momma deserves to get that letter expressing “supreme regret” or whatever; nor does it mean that poor sorry bastard deserved to get shot.
You see the difference? Something can be necessary, and still tragic and undeserved. And if you start celebrating tragedies, you lose a part of your humanity. That’s my teaching as a shaman, and you don’t have to listen to it, or agree with it, but it’s why I’ll say: it might have been the “right” choice by many definitions of “right”; that doesn’t mean the person deserved to get shot, or die. It just meant they likely would be, and would.
Beautifulplumage
@Beautifulplumage: and, yeah, the discourse around the rioter’s death has pissed me off too. Part of the pissedness is the misogyny of the “sacred blond white woman” as noted in a comment above. Sorry not sorry.
cain
@Mary G:
This thread has gotten me to scrutinize the actions of the Capitol police. It doesn’t seem like they followed any of the rules, got their own folks hurt and one killed and honestly were not able to protect their main charge. They were just lucky that they didn’t go in there and tear it apart. It could have happened. Every Democratic congressional representative’s life was on the line as well as the VP. The President was not going to help.
It’s absolutely chilling when you think about it. That’s why Pelosi said he is a very dangerous man. She’s been putting this together as well.
How shameful that we as a nation is down to having Hoyer calling from under a table to the Maryland Gov begging for help?? Is our security that poor?
Not only that – everyone’s shit has been rifiled throughby Russians or anyone else. The computers were completely open. The failure if you look at it is a failure on so many goddam levels – that firing the top level of the capitol police – I am not sure that is enough. There needs to be a special task force put together to sort this shit out.
Frankensteinbeck
@Chetan Murthy:
Wednesday was a good day for Donald Trump and his MAGA confederate asshole followers. Thursday was a very bad day. Instead of winning, they found out they lost. Trump surrendered publicly. The Biden confirmation they were trying to stop went through. The arrests began, and are nowhere near over. And this was their last chance. This is not going to be recorded as a glorious victory by their side once it settles in.
LongHairedWeirdo
Help me out here – where did I ask for your sympathy? Is it “sympathy” to say “yeah, she didn’t deserve to die, but she did something that made it very likely she would”?
@Chetan Murthy: You really don’t get that I don’t care what you say, do you?
Viva BrisVegas
This woman will be set up by the right as the new Horst Wessel.
At least Horst got a cool song about him, she’ll be lucky to get Cat Scratch Fever.
Beautifulplumage
@LongHairedWeirdo: wow mr shaman, haven’t seen much of you being in the comments dropping your “wisdom” around the completely unnecessary Covid-19 deaths, some of which have been caused by people, like the deceased rioter, who refuse to help stop it’s spread.
LongHairedWeirdo
Indeed, it could be. I believe regretting every death, except those at the natural time, is something one might call “compassion” and I value that trait. Which kind of person would you rather be? The person who thinks “damn shame it happened” when someone dies, or the person who might think “YES! YES! OH, I am *SO HAPPY* now!!” if the person who died was some kind of enemy?
I prefer to be the first. It’s very human to be the second, which is why I say I *prefer* to be the first – not that I always *am* that way.
cain
I get that. It’s somewhat loosely related to I believe one native indiginous tribe that will thank the animal’s spirit after killing it as to not take it for granted. In the sense you’re not celebrating its death but rather humble for its sacrifice. I think you’re in that mindspace.
That said, I don’t think people here are celebrating it as much as – nonchalant about the death – after all she has harmed one up till that point – but she projected intent.
I think though wisdom says that people are not in a frame of mind that would be conducive to be in that head space – four years of assault on every sense to this possible final crescendo – they aren’t there yet. It’s like when folks are mad or scared, you’re not gonna reach them especially with this aspect of shamanism of which you’ve clearly trained your mind to deal with the ills of life but others have not.
Probably want to wait after the feeling of not being backed up against the proverbial corner has passed. But I think to your point it’s not celebratory but rather the feeling of “I have no fucks to give” to put it bluntly.
Mary G
@cain: It needs a very full investigation or even a special counsel set up. Some of them seemed surprised and fought, others very conspicuously did not. There was one Black officer armed only with a collapsing stick who was trying to face down a mob on the stairs and had to keep backing up. I was glad someone behind him was filming. If there hadn’t been something ugly might have happened. The lead MAGAt had a look on his face like a cat toying with a mouse.
Ms. Deranged in AZ
Long-haired weirdo is concern trolling. Just ignore him or her. There was nothing illegal or unethical or immoral about that shooting. She went there believing it was The Storm, when QAnon members help round up and summarily execute Trump’s enemies. She has zip ties on her for that reason. She got what she deserved.
Kent
Au contraire. Every day since November 3 has been a bad day for them. Instead of losing once, the Donald has managed to turn the transition into the most epic conflagration of loosing the planet has ever seen. He’s the first president in history to lose 100+ times on a daily basis from election to inauguration. 60 plus lawsuits, numerous recounts, endless challenges to certifications, slates of electors, the electoral college itself, and finally the final certification. Loser, loser, loser, loser x 100. He’s lost more times than there are actual days in the transition. He has a loss for every single day with plenty to spare. And his loser stink was so epic it spilled over and lost two GA Senate races they should have won. Which also lost Mitch McConnell his GOP Senate.
He is the most epic loser in history honestly
Context is everything.
Chetan Murthy
@cain: Cain, this is precisely right.
To celebrate the death of coup plotters is to celebrate the quashing of the coup: the two go hand-in-hand, b/c they wielded deadly force, and it was kill or be killed. Those protective detail members were defending our legislators, defending our Republic, defending US. I’m not about to mourn the enemy dead until the war is over. And it’s not over, not by a long shot.
I wonder if Shaman LongHairedWeirdo has also given all his worldly goods to relief organizations feeding poor people in famine-stricken countries. I mean, every death is equally awful,every life equally valuable, surely he doesn’t value his own over some starving child in Somalia …..
Beautifulplumage
@LongHairedWeirdo:
“I can understand someone saying that she got what she deserved, but she didn’t. Many conservatives would say that she got what she deserved (if you described the episode without the specific context), but they’re wrong about a *boatload* of stuff.”
Yeah, the strange argument about “many conservatives” on a lefty blog. I agree that you only show up to concern troll us. Take your shit somewhere else, mr shaman.
Chetan Murthy
@Ms. Deranged in AZ:
wait, wut? really? zipties? She was going to take our legislators hostage? jesus.
piratedan
@Mary G: I think this is an important piece of the puzzle and if we start to connect some dots I think we can see that this was set up as a likely result, neh?
wasn’t it like three weeks ago that Trump replaced some Pentagon staff at the upper levels? Doesn’t take much to speculate that he replaced people who weren’t likely to “play ball” with those who would. So, he’s got “the cavalry” locked down and delayed. Say that’s possibly Part One.
Now we have the Capitol Police staff administration themselves…. someone reached out to them, they said no help is needed, or wanted, and no other requests are made until after the breach is made. We see videos of selfies being taken, we hear reports of off-duty police giving the high sign to certain staff members who then let them thru. Meanwhile, there are those fighting and in a melee with armed rioters… some of which apparently are even given directions by CP staff when “looking for specific offices”. Swalwell noted that these guys found Pelosi’s office and the Parlimentarian’s office and were looking for the office of the Dem Senate leader…
Call that Part two….
Part three is coverup… no update from Capitol Police staff… nada that we’ve seen published, all we have is resignations asked for and then… given, with the reminder from the Capitol Police chief that he’ll be expecting his pension and his full compliment of sick leave on his way out the door. No briefings, no comprehensive findings of just where vandalism occurred…
Idle thought number one, I wonder how many GOP offices were ransacked or was it only Dem offices?
So, in this age of conspiracy theories… it looks like the 45 admin got the Pentagon hamstrung to slow down any response and worked the Capitol Police to “take one for the team” and the CP top staff rolled over and let the mob assault some of their front line troops, while others aided and abetted.
random thought number two, it was set up to make the Government look weak and mission accomplished but they don’t see that the repercussions lead to questions they don’t want asked.
random thought number three, would anyone be shocked to find out if there was coordination with members of the GOP caucus, be they pols or staff?
The biggest “fail” is that these guys simply weren’t ruthless enough to decapitate Congress, they certainly had the opportunity to do so, with what appears to be a complicit administration, but failed to send enough hard core fascists to actually commit murder.
Kent
3960 people lost their lives to Covid on the same day this QAnon freak was “storming the castle”. An all time high for this pandemic. Many directly the result of the sociopathic actions of her MAGA hero that she was trying to put back in power to rule over us again. and the sociopathic carelessness of all of her MAGA ilk.
Fuck her and fuck the rest of them.
Ms. Deranged in AZ
@Chetan Murthy: Yes, quite a few of them had zipties on them. and we don’t know what information the guards might have had in regards to the pipe bombs and Molotov cocktails that were found elsewhere and set off safely, thank goodness. But the guard facing a mob did absolutely the right thing and he or she did it well with only a single shot. And then she was immediately given aid. So they did everything right and not a single thing wrong and I don’t want to hear from some holier than thou concern troll that it wasn’t the right thing to do.
this_is_peak_karen
“Sacred blonde white woman” indeed. Smiling and laughing in all the photos, just your friendly girl next door. The choice of photos is very revealing.
Ms. Deranged in AZ
@Kent:. Amen! Their hands had blood on them long before they reached the Capitol building.
Chetan Murthy
@Kent: The coup plotters aren’t just him. And the rest of them have learned that there are no consequences for them. Look at this from the FBI: https://tips.fbi.gov/digitalmedia/aad18481a3e8f02
The plotters and funders will skate.
Kent
For Fuck’s sake. Almost no one actually ever DESERVES to die outside of monsters like Timothy McVeigh or Osama bin Laden.
Doesn’t mean the rest of us have to give a shit when idiots and assholes get themselves killed.
Ms. Deranged in AZ
@Chetan Murthy: speaking of funders skating, I had to laugh at Betsy Devos’ resignation letter. Her family has donated tens of millions of dollars to support Trump and other batshit crazy Republicans for years who have been pushing these ideas. And now she wants to distance herself from him? I ain’t buying it
cain
@cain:
Amazingly someone had a much more succinct way of what I was saying rather inarticulately.
https://twitter.com/OregonRolledA20/status/1347455060591005696
Kent
They always do, whether it is the Iraq war or the Civil War.
Doesn’t mean a Dem-controlled DOJ and Congress can’t make as many of their lives as uncomfortable as possible. A Federal inquiry is serious shit. As is a Congressional investigation.
Ms. Deranged in AZ
I’ve been thinking about this a lot over the last 24 hours and trying to figure out why I am so angry about the whole thing. It’s not just that they violated the people’s house. It has a lot to do with the fact that they have gotten away with it so far and that Trump continues to get away with crimes over and over and over again and he never suffers any consequences. That’s infuriating to the average person like myself. And we were so close to the end, so close to him being gone and we started to have a little bit of Hope again. But part of me always knew the Trump would find some way to take a big old dump in the middle of our democracy before he walked out the door and that’s exactly what he did yesterday.
piratedan
@Ms. Deranged in AZ: and for me, the single most infuriating thing is not only did they get in, they got out and many of them walked away. Not enough personnel to contain them and now that the jig is up, the real bad guys are in the wind. The stupid ones we can find and round up.
My fear is that they will come back on the 20th, better armed and in larger numbers.
cain
I think that’s the real failure of the plan. Maybe this was the plot they were looking for.
Of course now there are gas lighting going on – trying to blame antifa on everything.
Chetan Murthy
@piratedan: And in 2024.
LongHairedWeirdo
@cain: You know, it’s a funny thing. I made a single comment, and then, responded to those who expressed disagreement of something I *didn’t* say, by explaining what I *did*.
I haven’t been pestering people, trying to make my point over and over again. Just responding, and clarifying. And you might notice, when someone’s engaging with me in good faith, I’m happy to talk. I can even agree with a you that perhaps this wasn’t the *wisest* thing to do – even though I don’t agree, I know you might be closer to right than I.
The reason I don’t agree is, I simply don’t see yesterday’s events as cause for fear. I think there will soon be indictments, arrests, etc., and a whole lot of people will wise up really fast; this might well be the beginning of the end of the Republican Party Of Hate. If the small fry are scooped up, but the big boys aren’t, that’s bad for the party – everyone sees they threw the small fry under the bus. If the small fry and big boys are scooped up, that’s bad for the party. The idea that *no one* gets scooped up doesn’t even register at the moment. I can’t see that as a meaningful possibility. So I don’t see saying “have enough compassion that you don’t think it’s *good* that a person dies” as dumping on a person who’s reasonably afraid.
I could be wrong – this situation has freaked me out far more than I could have guessed, and maybe lots of other folks are thinking “there are cops and military who participated, that makes it dangerous” while I’m thinking “wow, those cops and troops are up the proverbial creek, sans paddle”. So maybe I’m peddling compassion at the wrong time, in the wrong context, because I just don’t get the fear.
Or maybe people are overreacting to some weirdo they met on the internet. It’s been known to happen!
Viva BrisVegas
It’s simple arithmetic.
rats + sinking + ship = Betsy DeVos
Archon
It’s going to be interesting when these insurrectionists use as a trial defense that they were encouraged to enter the Capitol building by DC police because it sure seems like they got VERY light resistance after the initial breakthrough.
cain
That is – in fact – exactly the plan. I also think it would be very prudent to have Joe and Kamala take their oath indoors – i think it has shown that security has become very laxed and we have no idea how many depts have been compromised.
It doesn’t have to be a grand affair – we can all watch from remote.
Chetan Murthy
@LongHairedWeirdo:
Two things:
(1) we all thought he’d run out of options, and was just thrashing around. We saw him try to steal the election, for months and months, and in the end, he failed. So we thought “OK, we’re thru it, finally”. And then, he does this: an autogolpe. Sure, it didn’t succeed. But now we know that whatever we thought before, he wasn’t defused, the bomb was still ticking. We don’t know what he has in store for the next 15 days, and until he is removed from office, we’ll all have to be on edge. Just like we were for the last four years.
(2) You talked about “if the funders/leaders aren’t prosecuted, but the small fry are, it’ll look bad”. Au contraire, that’s how it always works, right down to G. Gordon Liddy going to prison for Nixon. That’s how it always works. So yeah: when and if the plotters and funders skate, they’ll just try again. That’s what happens when you don’t punish coup plotters.
This is a deadly serious business, and our Republic is at stake. Until it’s been secured, extending sympathy to the enemy is foolish. And when I talked about lines to be loaded into cattle cars, I was serious. Those fuckers want to massacre us. Maybe not you, but I’m brown, and I know better. I grew up in Texas, and I know what these Trumpers -are-.
aliasofwestgate
@cain: This is why Biden asked for the agents he knew in the Secret Service. The Inauguration will go on, but i have a feeling the security is going to be heavy af after this. With very little trust among agencies after this shitshow. Its gonna take freaking years to even remotely fix this shit.
cain
There are a lot of things to consider – but the police and the secretary of defense have not accounted themselves very well. This could have been a blood bath – and in that context – I think when talking compassion for the one death that happened – by their own hand – while the death is regretable – nobody cares to mourn – and that’s about as far as you’re going to get people to go. We’ll have to wait for humans to transcend and evolve a bit more I’m afraid :D
Martin
@Chetan Murthy: There’s at least two others that clearly have multiple flex cuffs on them in photos. So yeah, taking hostages was clearly part of the plan for some of them. Two headed straight for the EC boxes and then at least one headed to Pelosi’s office.
As I understand the woman who died was an AF MP? If so, she’d have experience using flex cuffs, but I’d not seen any reports she was carrying them.
Kent
Of course. It was all ANTIFA. So use surveillance video and facial recognition to nab all 2-3 thousand of them and lock them all up. It’s just ANTIFA. There weren’t any real MAGA folks there. So they should all support that. Right???
cain
I agree. I think Wray should tender his resignation – even if the Capitol Police did not request more back up – there should have been intel proving otherwise. It wasn’t even hard intel – these people were plotting in front of you! If that didn’t work, talk to the speaker and majority leader – they should have the ability to over rule any decision in regards to this.
So many damn questions.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kent:
Certainly true, but on the 6th he and his followers thought they’d overturned the election. Then on the 7th they found out they’d done nothing but shit on the floor and roll around in it.
@piratedan:
The truth is, the vast, vast majority of these confederate rebel wannabes are chickenshits of the highest order, just like their boss. If they’d faced more resistance than a handful of isolated serious guards once they had the adrenaline thrill going of breaching the gates, nothing but some yelling would have happened. The serious murderers willing to face actual resistance were tiny in number. There weren’t more like that to send. Note the bafflement of the ones who got maced. These are cosplay rebels. They only did this because they thought it was a cakewalk.
Without Capitol Police leadership and some of the police themselves letting these shitheads in, there would have been no storming of the building. They are as or more culpable as anyone else, and got one of the few of their number who valiantly did their job killed.
Chetan Murthy
@Frankensteinbeck:
and SIXTY more in the hospital with injuries. SIXTY.
aliasofwestgate
@cain: Also so much housecleaning among the new heads of the Cabinet. I imagine quite a few of the non law enforcement places have issues, but the most pressing is going to be the LEO and adjacent admins and their rank and file. Many of which are scattered among so many different agencies its unreal.
Kent
The Secret Service are not the Capitol Police. They do, indeed, know what the fuck they are doing.
Citizen Alan
@LongHairedWeirdo:
Likewise, it’s also perfectly reasonable to say “the terrorist fucker had it coming.
Ruckus
@LongHairedWeirdo:
In a better world you would be right.
This is not a better world. As I’ve stated here many times I was one of two people on board my ship on in port watch who carried a loaded weapon at all times. I had orders that if I needed to use my weapon because someone was boarding the ship I was to shoot to kill. To shoot in the center of mass, because that is what stops people, when it is necessary to do so. I didn’t take that order at all lightly, because I didn’t want to shoot anyone. But that’s what I took an oath to do, to defend whatever ship I was on, to defend the country. And that is what that officer was doing. Do you think he was overjoyed or happy at all that he’d just taken a life? If he’s anywhere near normal he hates that he had to do that, which I already did, long before it never happened. The world doesn’t control what others do but we control what we do. He was there to protect the people and the property in one of our buildings, same as I was. I would have hated it more than you but I’d bet I’d have done the same thing, had I been there, doing that job. Never forget that the people were assaulting us, our elected legislators and their staff members, and our property. This is serious business, not a joke in any way and no one is making light of it. The people doing the attacking were wrong, they did the wrong things, had no business doing what they did. If shitforbrains had anything to do with this, he should be tried along with them for treason. The US did the same in Pearl Harbor when a foreign country attacked, and it’s really no different when citizens attack our government, it’s what has to be done sometimes. Thankfully not that often.
smike
@Ms. Deranged in AZ:
Someone in the family probably explained to Betsy-poo that Trump was being cut off. Too much of a liability. Think she’d side with an obvious fool over the fortune that is in her grasp?
Kent
They thought they were going to win in SCOTUS with all the new *Trump* justices. They thought they were going to win in PA. They thought they were going to win on election night by just shutting down the counts. They thought they had GA locked up tight like in the Jim Crow days. They thought they were going to win in AZ with the GOP judges. They *thought* they were going to win 100+ times.
The 6th was just another day of delusional losing.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kent:
Yeah, the Secret Service don’t play, and the DC mayor is keeping the national guard until after the inauguration. Nobody is letting the Capitol Police leaders pull this shit again. The mob will be back. It’s hard to say how many, and how many have given up, and it’s hard to say if their number will include any of the tiny number of freaks willing to try to kill Biden. In theory, it only takes one. But they’re not getting a cakewalk this time.
EDIT – @Kent:
But only on the 6th did they think they had. Honestly, our opinions are not far apart. We disagree on their reaction to one day in the whole mess, and even then I’m not sure we disagree on that or just on whether it’s worth mentioning in the parade of fail.
Chetan Murthy
@Ms. Deranged in AZ:
Her little “inflection point” bit reminded me of David Cross’ “I am beginning to regret my vote for Trump” standup routine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1wkqZIJOAQ
Comedy gold. Esp. after 2m00.
Kathleen
On CNN yesterday Hakim Jeffries said one traitor had urinated in the hallway in front of his office.
We need to hear more about the zip ties, because it seems several Nazis had them.
Martin
@piratedan:
That wasn’t exactly the plan. They believe that Trump has secret forces that he will unleash at the right time. Some people thought that was yesterday, some think it’s the 20th. So they don’t need to bring all the resources to do this, as they’re convinced Trumps secret army is going to arrive at any moment.
And yes, the secret army is going to execute all of the liberals and RINOs and so on. And some believe this will trigger the Rapture.
It’s serious bananapants and a shockingly large number of people believe it.
Kent
She doesn’t want to be the last Cabinet Secretary standing when Pence comes around with the 25th Amendment paperwork. That’s a no-win. Rats jumping ship. No one wants to be in the Fuhrer Bunker for the Götterdämmerung.
Ruckus
@edmund dantes:
Also remember he was out numbered and had been pointing his gun at them. They knew there were guns on the other side of that door they were breaking down, they could see them, and I don’t care if they are delusional that they have the right to forcefully take over the Capital Building, they do not. That more of them didn’t get shot is actually pretty amazing to me.
Martin
@Kathleen: Here’s a photo of one of the guys who had them.
There’s maybe 8-10 in that bundle. These were the guys that went in like they were on a mission. If we learn that they all worked for Flynn, I wouldn’t be even slightly shocked.
Kent
We agree. I’m just not willing to allow them any “wins” in this horror show. Not even any consolation prizes.
Chetan Murthy
@Martin: It appears that bellingcat et al. are coordinating identifying them all. Per a tweet Jay shared earlier tonight, it appears that this guy’s been identified as a high-ranking ex-military with serioius security clearance. So likely one of Flynn’s, yeah. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t have a lot of faith that even if they’re identified, they’ll be arrested. But who knows: maybe the Dem legislators will see that it’s either arrest ’em all, or wait for the next coup in 2024.
Kent
The DeVos family has a whole private army of mercs. Some of them just got Trump pardons.
Frankensteinbeck
@Martin:
I’ve payed attention to their ranting. They believe a lot of different crazy stuff simultaneously. Their mythology of how to overturn the election included a number of points of possible victory, such as SCOTUS and legislatures overriding the votes to set Trump electors. The loons willing to even stand around and yell seriously thought they could overturn the election this way. Trump knows there will be no military coup, because the military has told him so. An undetermined number of his followers still think the Storm is an option for pulling this out. It will be interesting if they turn on Trump when he doesn’t do this, but it may take a couple of weeks after the inauguration for all but the tiniest nut to realize Trump won’t step up and save the day the way they’ve convinced themselves he can. After all, Trump may be their figurehead now, but white supremacy cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Captain C
@Martin: Diverted from the Gulen kidnap squad, perhaps?
Chetan Murthy
@Frankensteinbeck:
A different way of interpreting that same data-point, is that Trump knows the military will not act to stop him, if he (for example) uses LEO and ex-military militias to execute an autogolpe. I remember this summer, I thought to myself: “he’s got his Sturmabteilung already: it’s LEOs, all over the country”. There seems to be a lot of evidence that off-duty LEOs and ex-military types were heavily represented in the personnel of that coup attempt.
Ruckus
@Ms. Deranged in AZ:
Those people she and her family have donated money did what they got paid to do, which ended in a armed robbery attempt on our government. They are no longer of any use to her or her family and may get legal cooties on them. She may or may not have known about any of what they did prior but she and her family would not bat an eye about profiting off of them.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Tim McVeigh was a solider
Shalimar
@piratedan: One of them walked away with a podium, and tried to sell it on Ebay. Complete incompetence in locking the place down. Everyone in charge should be fired just for that.
opiejeanne
@Kent: Those guys would have no qualms about murdering lawmakers.
Martin
@Chetan Murthy: I think there’s a real sense of danger among the Biden team right now.
Above it was mentioned that Biden picked his detail, and it’s because some of the Secret Service detail can’t be trusted. Think about that. There’s 100+ unrepentant insurrectionists in Congress.
Garland and the incoming AGs are going to need to go after this and unwind it like they would Al Qaeda, or it’s going to come back bigger and more dangerous in 2022 and 2024. They need to put these people behind bars for a decade, they need to charge members of Congress and Trump and some of his kids, they have to unwind the funders of this effort, which might lead them to people like Ginni Thomas and the DeVos family, and they need to lay this out in the open like they would an impeachment hearing.
I was just talking to my daughter who was asking if this is worse than 9/11, and 9/11 was more shocking, at least in terms of how I interacted with it, and different as we have a lot of FDNY relatives. But that with Covid taking care of the 9/11 casualty numbers on top of a coup attempt, this feels worse the longer it goes on.
But after 9/11 I spent a lot of hours with the FBI being interviewed about every Muslim student and staff person in my sphere (hundreds), and this situation really does warrant that kind of federal response to identify and break up these armed groups, find and remove confederate employees among law enforcement, etc.
Every hour this feels worse.
Martin
@Captain C: Forgot about that. But yeah, Flynn is a fucking lunatic.
Ruckus
@Martin:
He does not seem to be alone in this.
Kathleen
@Martin: Thank you. I saw Tweet thread with a series of pictures of some of these guys. They’re professional and for the first time I’m allowing myself to believe they would have killed Senators and Reps. I’m quaking.
TriassicSands
@LongHairedWeirdo:
It’s easy to say a shooting death is “justified.” But the better question, which police never ask is “Was it necessary?” Most police shooting videos we see are not necessary. There were other alternatives, readily available, to deal with the situation that could have avoided the use of deadly force. But police always seem to operate under the assumption that every problem has to be taken care of in the shortest possible time. Killing a person usually works if that is the goal.
I have no idea if the killing of Babbitt was necessary.
Mary G
@Ruckus: I think he had a red line at the door because if she had come through the top of the window she could’ve pulled the chairs away, unlocked the door and let the hordes stream in. So she starts to come through and he shot her. I was pretty impressed he only shot once because I remember the good old days when the LAPD just sprayed the entire area until the clip was empty. He just stayed put until someone else tried to come over the line.
I don’t think he even knew the other guys were strolling around outside. The communication were spotty. One of the reporters that was up in the visitor’s gallery said that someone was pounding on the door and the CP officers with them had an argument whether or not to open it because they weren’t sure who was on the other side.
Frankensteinbeck
@Chetan Murthy:
I remember this summer too, and it turned out he had eighty guys who got driven off by unarmed protestors even with the Portland police covering for them. Trump has no private army to launch a coup with.
Edmund Dantes
Not sure who said it above talking about standing Port Watch, but there is one person I feel sorry for, and it’s not the woman that pushed through that barricade.
it’s the secret service or Capitol police that was forced to discharge their weapon in line with their duty. Knowing that once they pulled that trigger, someone was going to be potentially mortally wounded.
They now have to live with that cause some idiots wanted to cosplay a rebellion.
Sebastian
@LongHairedWeirdo:
Hey buddy, let me help you here. Those dipshits should have been mowed down with machine guns. Any fleeing scum chased down and executed on the spot.
You know why? Irregular combatants. And now fuck off.
TS (the original)
@cain:
I have no idea where this came from – but it seems suitable and made me laugh and at the minute, it is so nice to find a reason to laugh.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Viva BrisVegas:
You left out six or seven
shipsyachts.TS (the original)
@piratedan:
With virtually any other group of people they would have been arrested as they came out the door. They definitely had friends on high.
Beautifulplumage
@TriassicSands: can you and LHW take your little chat to another blog? I suspect no one else is up for your upcoming lovefest of propaganda. We get it, y’all queda are pushing the “alternative” viewpoints to muddy shit up.
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
As much as the cops love Trump, they love their municipal pensions more. And they sure as hell know Trump isn’t going to compensate them.
JoyceH
@Frankensteinbeck:
I saw Russell Honore make an interesting suggestion – he wondered if the Capitol Police were so deferential to the rioters because they thought Trump was with them! Remember when Trump directed the mob to the Capitol, he said he was coming with them.
raven
@Beautifulplumage: It’s called the pie filter.
Beautifulplumage
@JoyceH: I saw a video of the damage in the Parlimentarian’s Office then later read a tweet about how hard it is to find that office in the maze of the Capitol. Having been around the much smaller WA state capitol buildings I can appreciate the maze-like aspect. The link in one of Martin’s posts above led to compelling evidence that some coordinated LEO/military used the MAGA crowd as cover for various actions. The highly geared-up people with the handcuff ties, etc are only one aspect.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Martin:
Check out the excellent, detailed thread that @HumboldtBlue linked to above. Mind-blowing.
otmar
I’m wondering whether Trump will issue pardons for members of the mob.
Ruckus
@Mary G:
They were out manned. The police work surrounding the Capital Building was seemingly sloppy at best. And they had an armed and insane force attacking them. Considering what they do when people of color show up to peacefully assemble, they seemingly were caught, as the saying goes, flat footed. And these people were not there to peacefully assemble. They were there to storm the building, and they were storming the building. At the end of the day it is obvious that this was planned, even if not well planned and while I can’t say they had inside assistance, it sure looked and sounds like that.
Beautifulplumage
@raven: sorry, pie filter only works if I never dump my cache/cookies/history, which I do frequently. {insert shoulder shrug emoji}
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: Something LO’D said Wednesday night about the Capitol Police, they’re more like cops at a university than a municipal force. Most of what they do is man the metal detectors at the entrance and give folk directions.
Ruckus
@Edmund Dantes:
That was me. I was no where near the only person in that type of position then and while a lot has changed in the last 50 yrs there are still a wide range of humans and how some of them still see themselves being able to just take what the hell ever they want, when the hell ever they want it.
And you are correct. Sure there are murderous assholes in a uniform and badge, we hear about them all the time. A gun, a knee, and no grand ideas about the sanctity of life. If you are a reasonable person you don’t want to hurt people, but they don’t always give you that choice. This was one of those times. Some think we have come a long way from the days of kill or be killed and for most of us most of the time we have. But not all the time nor all the people have made that trip. This was one of those times.
rikyrah
She was a traitor.
Period?
Not a game
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@edmund dantes: This video is like the end of the movie “Serpico” – when he gets set-up.
They terrorists are breaking the windows to breach the corridor and instead of stopping and arresting the intruders the cops turn their backs and leave, waving off the other cops coming up the stairwell. (photo)
They were in on this.
JoyceH
@Ruckus:
I know. I’m baffled. So many of these people were QAnon and they genuinely believed that this was The Storm. Trump himself summoned them to DC after all, and spoke to them personally and directed them where to go. But the public pronouncements were just that this was a big rally, not that they were going to storm the Capitol.
So perhaps law enforcement intel was caught napping? But surely they should have known! I would have expected them to be lurking all over the QAnon boards and Parler etc.
When the Whitmer kidnap plotters were charged, they hadn’t even done anything yet but lay plans – but they had an informer AND an undercover agent on the inside! That actually gave me confidence that turns out to be unfounded – I figured that whatever was planned, law enforcement already knew all about it. Why didn’t they?
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I heard that too. Who knew that the capitol is the least protected building in the government?
Mary G
@Ruckus: I wonder if after seeing five people die, others arrested or wanted by the FBI, and/or losing their jobs there will be fewer people at the next action.
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I’ve never been there but I’d bet that’s correct. And yet, I’d bet not a lot of people think assaulting the US Capital Building is a wise and smart move. You’d have to be rather well trained or rather stupid to think they wouldn’t at least try to stop you if you did, even if you didn’t expect a lot of trouble. These folks seemed at least to expect some resistance from the CP. They were willing to use a lot of force to get in and they had to know where they were going once they did, because they went right there. This was at least loosely organized and operating at far more that a wild ass guess as what to do to accomplish their goal, which was not to grandstand but an open attack on the country.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Mary G: White grievance is a hellva drug
Baud
@Mary G:
They also won’t have Trump’s government to support them.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Sebastian:
I like how you think.
Mary G
@JoyceH:
Can’t investigate without investigators and money to pay them
DMcK
“Shamansplaining”. Apparently it’s a thing now.
Sloane Ranger
What I want to know is, who was the guy in the suit and tie milling around with the traitors as Babbitt was being pushed through the window? Looking at the video, he seems to be wearing what looks like some sort of pass on a lanyard around his neck.
Could he be a staffer of some sort? If so, who’s? Whoever he is, he seemed to be very in with the rioters and have some sort of influence with the rather disinterested in doing their job police squad.
Which raises another question. The Capitol police knew they were being recorded on cell phones, news cameras and CCTV, yet many of them didn’t even make a pretence of doing their jobs. Did they think the coup would be successful or were they so far down the rabbit hole of white/police privilege they didn’t think there would be any consequences for them personally?
Cermet
@Chetan Murthy: You are wrong and so wrong its funny. You are no different than a q-nutcse psoting that nonsense. Not gonna waste a lot of text on your crazy but if there were even just a few pro’s in that crowd, a lot of congress dems would be dead right now. AS for our military not defending the country even if the thugs are lead by the tRump himself, you don’t understand that Officers have sworn an oath to the Constituton, not shit for brains.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
A look at foreign front pages (photo)
Ruckus
@JoyceH:
Well the answer to your question is all around us. Over 70 million people, who’ve seen nearly 48 months of this guys shit were willing to vote for his dumb racist ass. Again. We have “news” outlets propagandizing them daily, we have a utter shithead, who they voted for, again, and were willing to assault the Capital Building in order to steal an election for him. This country has never taken the steps that Germany did after WWII to rid itself of the governmental concept that damn near wiped them off the face of the map after our civil war. We tried to sweep the racism under the rug and it hasn’t worked more than a token amount at best. This is still a very racist country and that racism is fed by many sources including the current president, shitforbrains. We need, deserve and had better start demanding that we do this, even if it’s well over a 150 yrs over due. Sweeping it under the rug hasn’t worked, it’s wrong, it needs to change and that change has to start at the top. But all of us are responsible, just as we have been for decades. It’s obvious that the majority doesn’t believe in the racism but that hasn’t been enough. Because that’s what this is all about, the voting for shitforbrains, this attempted coup, hell conservative politics of my entire life, it’s all about racism.
sab
@Sloane Ranger: I am agreeing with Bill in Glendale @#164. They are there to protect Congress, but they rarely have to do that. But CP members have been killed doing that. A lone nut job tried to murder Whip Tom DeLay years ago, and killed a CP in the process.
Mostly they are there day to day manning the metal detectors and giving directions. Apparently the vast majority of their arrests are drug busts from traffic stops on surrounding streets, not anything to do with the capital building.
I am frankly amazed that when the mob started busting in windows to enter that only one person was shot.
raven
@sab: After she is shot you can see the Auschwitz guy right there.
Tony Jay
@JoyceH:
Given their actions before, during and after the Insurrection I think it’s more likely that their number includes quite a few valued commentators and probably front-pagers.
As an aside it struck me that what we saw in DC was an object lesson to anyone who has ever read about the rise of the Nazi Party and been baffled by the frequent mentions of Brownshirts and other Far-Right thugs being allowed to paint the streets of Germany red with the blood of their opponents while the Police stood by uninterested. How the hell could that happen? Why didn’t anyone stop them? What were Germans thinking?
It’s easier to grasp now, isn’t it?
Plus, it’s chilling to think that how very, very close this came to becoming something a whole lot darker. ‘Babberta Paulson’ was shot trying to breach the last barrier between Democratic lawmakers and a mob of seditious scumbags who were carrying duct tape and restraints and a whole lot of bloodthirsty fantasies about capturing and murdering Trump’s opponents. One of the reasons the Wingnutoshere and their Media allies are trying to whitewash the dead woman’s intentions is because they’re terrified of Americans understanding exactly what these ‘Angry Heartland Patriots’ were there to do.
raven
@Sloane Ranger:
he seemed to be very in with the rioters
That’s bullshit, you can’t tell that from that video.
Sebastian
@Ruckus:
It was an attack to interrupt the certification of EV, to steal the ballots, and to capture and kill Pence and Pelosi, thus throwing the succession into so much chaos to allow Trump to declare martial law.
Like all his schemes it failed because of shitty planning and because he was to cheap/broke to hire a core of professionals.
Sloane Ranger
@raven: He was standing around mingling with them and they were ignoring him. Not even jostling him.
Both his and their body language tells me that he was comfortable with them and they with him.
sab
@Tony Jay: I think there was some sort of collusion going on with some people inside the Capitol and the rioters. Congressional staff? Some of CP? Outside people with government ID tags and credentials? Probably all of that.
Also bad support from highest up in the CP who were too concerned with placating Trump.
But I think a lot of the CP on the ground did they best they could with woefully inadequate backup and support. They got all the Congressional people to safety. They didn’t start a two-sided bloodbath.
It has been shocking, and frankly embarrassing, but this could have been so much worse. We just need to follow up with teeth to seriously discourage the vandals. Loss of freedom, loss of jobs, legal costs, blots on resumes, criminal records. The usual stuff we do to everyone else.
Baud
This Reddit comment is on point.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Republican senators now expressing regret that they didn’t do more to check Trump….
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/533280-republican-senators-now-regret-not-doing-more-to-contain-trump
raven
@Sloane Ranger: Yea, well I stand by my statement.
sab
@Baud: Is that what happened?!
Chyron HR
@Cermet:
“You think there were bad cops there? You’re just like the Q anons!”
Phew, lad. Just because certain people decided to assault us with hot takes all night doesn’t mean it was a competition.
Ruckus
@Sebastian:
That was their goal but why was that the goal?
Very simply it is racism
Racism may not be shitforbrains main concern but it seems like to him it’s not a small one.
His supporters main concern is racism.
sab
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Out in the open by name, or just off the record?
I so desparately wish Rob Portman would lose in 2022 so he could return to the muddy National park he cares about so deeply, to the exclusion of all other interests.
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
“I’m deeply sorry my actions have made me look bad.”
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Sebastian:
Ive been unironically saying “Reichstag Fire” for the past two days. That’s exactly what they planned – the zip ties, rope, gallows and the targeting of the parliamentarian’s office were the tells.
I want teams of agents grabbing up Ginni Thomas, Sund, the Sergeants at Arms, Don Jr, the new flunkies at DOD and DHS along with the staffers for Cruz, Hawley, Nunes and Jordan for some aggressive questioning.
TS (the original)
Who is the woman on MJ blaming the mayor for refusing police assistance in DC?
Ruckus
It’s tomorrow and I’m going to attempt to get some sleep.
See you all before the next shuffle.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
As one wag said – we spend about a trillion a year on national security, but our seat of government was overrun by Duck Dynasty and some creepy old flea market stand operators.
Baud
@TS (the original):
Someone who doesn’t understand that DC has no jurisdiction on Capitol grounds.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@TS (the original):
And she’s pretty wrong about what the city did.
Another interesting point – the programs that Snowjob and Greenwald got shut down would have been helpful to invoke right now to unwind all of the connections.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Speaking of Snowjob, he deeply laments the deplatforming of Donald Trump.
germy
RandomMonster
@Baud: I don’t frequent Reddit, so thanks for that. It is certainly on point.
TS (the original)
@TS (the original):
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Thanks – she sure got the wanted response “The Mayor did what!!”
debbie
I’m sure it’s already been said, but you start winning when you stop acting like assholes, you asshole.
Ken
If the House moves quickly, they should have another chance next week. And yes, removing him from office at this point is minimally useful, but they can bar him from ever again holding elective office. Has that penalty ever been used before?
RandomMonster
He won’t. Their role is done, and having failed he will pretend he has nothing to do with their actions.
Baud
@RandomMonster:
It’s at best a mixed bag, although you do see some more brave souls there who sound like Juicers than you used to.
SFAW
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Maybe this has already been covered — too lazy/un-caffeinated to go through this and other threads — but it occurred to me that, had those seditious mofos been better focused, we’d be talking about Gilead right about now. Because that was how it was born, if my memory is correct. [Read the book 20-plus years ago, don’t watch the TV version.] And THAT is (for me at least) the scariest part of what happened on Wednesday.
SFAW
@Baud:
Do a lot of threads start out with “Blech”?
debbie
@Ken:
Censure Trump, his family, and every one of his enablers. Censure the members of Congress who continue to support him and the lies about the election, including loss of any assignments or any other possibilities of influencing anything. Move their desks to the back of the chambers and cut off their mikes. Announce that the Medal of Freedom will be abolished and the list of Trump-era recipients will be awarded asterisks instead.
There’s all kinds of stuff that can be done, but they all must be designed to shame and diminish the assholes.
Baud
@SFAW:
They’re not that enlightened yet.
SFAW
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
“I vas only folloving orders” will probably work, these days.
sab
I would like to see No Fly List used on these guys. So many of them flew to DC, harassing other passengers on the way.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
After my wife’s fight with her dad, I’m seeing irretrievable breaks on Facebook, all over Trump. My old teacher/coach is quitting FB in support of Trump. A woman from our church is in a frothing fight with her 70-something dad (also from our church) because he said that 40 million Biden votes were illegal or by dead people (I’m staying out of that one).
debbie
@sab:
The air attendants’ union is already on that.
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
White people have long had a reckoning coming.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@sab:
Greenwald is upset about using the no-fly list against them.
I’m thinking that his actual history with Gluteus Maximus was a lot more sordid than anybody thought.
SFAW
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
He’s lucky they don’t administer basic sanity tests before he’d be allowed to vote/breathe/live-in-America.
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
That cohort will have a field day with any exercise of power by the Biden administration.
SFAW
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
???
I am apparently NOT aware of all Internet traditions.
Procopius
@Viva BrisVegas: A later story at Politico (sorry, I’m not providing a link) reported that the report of death was a mistake. On the other hand not only one, but 15 officers were hospitalized, and 50 reported injured. I gather from the Politico story that the false report was issued by the Capitol Police officers’ union. From the number of officers hospitalized, I infer that not all the police were letting the rioters in. This is a fraught situation, and I think I’ll try to avoid the news for a couple of days until more accurate information is available (except for what the media suppress, of course).
sab
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: If Greenwald hates it I like it.
Baud
@Procopius:
The death was reported prematurely, but the cop eventually did die.
Another Scott
Babbitt shouldn’t have died, because she never should have been there. Because GOP leadership and their enablers should not have been filling her head with lies for the last 5 years (and more).
There have to be consequences. The truth must win.
In other news, …
https://reut.rs/39aWwnT
Nobody could have predicted…
Cheers,
Scott.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@SFAW:
Greenwald was a mediocre lawyer with a middling sort of law firm before becoming a contrarian “constimatooshinal lawyer” for the fringe right. Backgrounder at Kos:
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/20/1859118/-The-Tale-of-the-Pontifex-Maximus-and-His-Lawyer-Glenn-Greenwald-s-strange-far-right-blind-spot
Uncle Cosmo
In fact,
(You could look it up.)
I recall a night, at least 30 years ago, at Max Blob’s Park[1], a Bavarian-style beer garden/dance hall at MD-175 and the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, with a crowd of dancers from the Baltimore Folk Music Society. I was speaking to my good friend Neil Ryan[2] when the oompah band launched into their next number & his head shot up suddenly & he said You hear that? I looked blank & he said, That’s “Die Fahne Hoch,” & when I continued looking blank he continued, You know it better as the Horst-Wessel Song.
Played as a polka. In late 20th-century America. Oompahpah.
[1] Demolished years ago to make way for townhouses. I miss it.
[2] Also lost years ago to a massive heart attack. Good man, good friend; I miss him even more.
CarolDuhart2
@Kent: That’s right. The smooth operation of many of these apps and sites require that the app hold back a copy for forensic and operational purposes. And most of the time these are retained anyway-other recipients and so forth.
About federal pensions and such: if you have not retired yet, you can forfeit all your benefits for insurrection and sedition-be fired and permanently barred from federal employment.
sab
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: When my registered Republican mom died (2012) as executor I dutifully trotted down to the Board of Elections to be sure she wouldn’t be voting anymore. The Coroner had got there before me. She probably could have kept voting had she neen a snowbird who died in Florida.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Another Scott:
Blue passports and the feeling of utter sovereignty of nationality beat personal sovereignty, social, locational and economic mobility any day….
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@CarolDuhart2:
Recall and court-martial Flynn. Burn his honors and pension to the ground.
PST
In discussing the Capitol Hill Police, I am reminded of a story told by MSNBC’s forgotten man, Chris Matthews. He sought an internship with his congressman, but there were no openings. So the rep told him he could get him a spot on with the police. He could help out in his spare time and maybe land a staff job later. That was a long time ago, of course, but it suggests that these guys aren’t exactly FBI or SWAT.
germy
CarolDuhart2
@RandomMonster: For ordinary persons, a pardon means little unless its specific and mentions you. And in order to claim any benefits, you have to come forward. Trump could pardon because he knew the people who were pardoned and they could accept the pardon and notify those who would otherwise prosecute about that existence.
sab
@Procopius: Fraught is the word. Just had a stupid screaming political argument with spouse because I think a lot of the CPs actually did their job and he thinks not.
Sebastian
@Ruckus:
I don’t care. Coup because of racism or profiteering or sociopathy … don’t give a shit. Summary execution of everyone even remotely involved in this. Cruz and Hawley right away.
SFAW
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
No, I know who Glemmy is. I just didn’t get the “Gluteus Maximus” ref, not reading a ton of Kos these days (and thus not having seen the “Pontifex Maximus” usage).
germy
@Another Scott:
Spanky
@sab: I would think you’re both right, seeing what we’ve seen so far. Time will tell, we hope.
SFAW
@Uncle Cosmo:
Not the same, of course, but an interesting … something: Someone I know was in an “El Torito” restaurant many years ago, listening to the piped-in mariachi music. At one point, he thought the tune sounded familiar; after listening closely for about 15 seconds, he realized the song was “Beer Barrel Polka.”
germy
MAGATs on parler are turning on Lin Wood. One even suggested he’s a commie.
sab
@Another Scott: She was an adult woman. She could make choices and did. I am very irked that we are so upset because the person who died was a woman. She was an adult with 14 years of military experience. She should have known what the risks were. She chose to be there climbing through that broken window.
germy
germy
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Well I am shocked to find out that MAGA is outraged when the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground are applied to them.
Geminid
@PST: Politico had a good story this morning about the Capitol police. It has come a long way from Chris Matthews’ day, and now numbers 3800 people, with it’s own bomb squad and rapid reaction force. Which makes it’s failure Wednesday all the more appalling. Leadership clearly failed. I want to know more before I judge the cops on the scene, but the policeman who died last night was not the only one who resisted what were overwhelming numbers and paid a price.
Another Scott
@sab: Yes, she had agency. Yes, she died because of her own actions.
But she was there because of the Teabaggers and the Limbaughs and the Boortzs and the Falwells and the McConnells and all the rest filling the airwaves and the churches with lies.
There have to be consequences for the lies. The truth must win.
That’s my main point.
Cheers,
Scott.
Sloane Ranger
@Uncle Cosmo: Were they singing the words or just playing the tune? Because don’t forget, The Red Flag and Oh Christmas Tree share the same tune and the US National Anthem has the same tune as a rather rude British drinking song.
And I know of 2 other countries that have the same music as the British National Anthem but different words, (obviously).
A decent piece of music shouldn’t be put out to pasture just because someone, somewhere chose it as the basis for some atrocious lyrics.
Kathleen
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: More than that. I think some of Eric Prince’s goons were there. Eric Swawell said last night many in Congress think there was a lot internal coordination from some Senators and reps. That was on LOD last night.
Tony Jay
@sab:
Agreed. If this is allowed to slide or only a few low level critters get slapped it’s as good as painting a bullseye on the back of the entire Biden Administration and Democratic majority. Next time they come, they’ll come with their guns, and their co-cultists in uniform will open the doors for them.
sab
@Another Scott: I remember all of Adam’s posts years ago about how best to be safe in peaceful protests.
These guys went off to protests they hoped and expected to be violent with no prep whatsoever.Shocking, especially for the military folk who knew better.
They just expected all authority to roll over with legs in air like dead cockroaches.
Uncle Cosmo
IMO Trump and the GOP have long since parted ways. Not the GOP you think, though: The Global Oligarchy Project, which subsumes the Rethuglican Party but extends well beyond it.
The GOP aims to destroy liberal of/by/for-the-people democracy everywhere and supplant it with a hollowed-out autocracy that doesn’t touch their bazillions or restrict their movement in any way but allows them to use the national treasury as their own personal ATM for sucking out the tax dollars of the “little people” when they need a few billion for pocket change.
Again IMO, the Global Oligarchs aren’t fascists, exactly. Their ideal form of government is Mussolini’s “corporate state” filtered through Iberia into Falangism. Populism – more properly, us-vs-them manipulation of the electorate into blaming one another for their disappointments instead of the superrich who are the real adversaries – is a convenient means to seize power, but once consolidation begins, it’s a liability. Most of them learned from Hitler that a charismatic blusterer is impossible to control & can cause them all sorts of embarrassment (if not real grief) ; they’d prefer a dull technocrat with a low profile, not even a Franco but a Salazar.
Over the last 12-18 months Trump has become an embarrassment to them. In the last few months he has shown a willingness to “burn it all down” if he can’t have his way. The Oligarchs want a functioning US gummint to do their bidding, not a pile of smoking rubble. So they have been trying to (gently, gradually) remove his tiny paws from the levers of gummint before he does more harm. They’re happy to have him discredit himself & lose to a guy like Biden who knows how to put the economy right & will dedicate himself to that end – because vampires need healthy sources for their liquid diet & know not to drain them too fast lest they kill their captives.
My prediction is that things will now calm the fuck down very quickly, & Biden/Harris will get a year or more to fight the pandemic & right the economy before the GOP rises back up & says Thanks for getting the car out of the ditch, now give us back the keys…(IOW Tea Party 2.0)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Geminid: The bit that I would like to hear more is how Congress Staffers were helping the Insurgents get into the building. It could likely be that the Capital Police had to open the doors for the people who were leading them.
The vibe I am getting is a lot of the Republicans from Trump on down thought these Q-Anon clowns were just more kayfabe, they would go in Congress and yell a lot, like a WWE wrestling event, and didn’t realize these people are dangerously mentally ill and were there to kill the shape shifting, baby eating Space Lizards or what ever the delusion is.
sab
@sab: ” These guys expected authority to roll over with legs in the air like deadcockroaches”
And mostly they were right.
Matt McIrvin
@Uncle Cosmo: This is why the purity leftists we like to make fun of hate the Democratic Party so much: they want to actually destroy the world money oligarchy, they know the Democrats aren’t any more interested in doing that than the Republicans, and they hate that liberals don’t actually seem to care much.
I can see the point, to some extent. Though I don’t think their plans are that realistic, to the extent they even have them.
bluefoot
@Chetan Murthy: If this had been a peaceful BLM protest against racist violence, rather than armed sedition and insurrection, they would have shot her before she even got close to the Capitol, cuffed her as she bled out and then stood around and laughed at her as she asked for help. And the news media would be all “she deserved it” and “no angel.”
All that aside, people seem really eager to find excuses for/softpedal the intent of people who were committing armed insurrection and sedition against the United States government and its people. This wasn’t some spontaneous protest that got out of hand, it was planned. Anyone who spends any time in any “conservative” (i.e. radical right) circles had heard about this.
ETA: And let’s not lose site of what they are committing insurrection for: authoritarianism, the right kill POC with impunity, put children in cages, take away the rule of law.
Super Dave
One of these traitors died of a heart attack after accidentally tasing his balls while trying to steal a picture of Tip O’Neil. You can’t make this shit up.
Chris Johnson
@Frankensteinbeck: No, they are not ‘chickenshits’, you’ve got it twisted.
They are DELUSIONAL like their leader (and that’s pretty delusional!). They’re really, really, REALLY insane which is both a threat and a tactical weakness.
These people are capable of being killed or defeated or captured because they truly think that, as white/right/correct people, they are not only allowed but obligated to break windows, burst into the United States Capitol, and citizens-arrest (or, I guess, citizens-execute) the most dangerous pedophile conspirators ever to conspirit. To them, these things are unquestionable and so they expect the normal thing is for them to be ALLOWED to do anything in this direction, and that people will cheer and clap just to see it.
They’re batshit, bugfuck insane. This is a weakness. It means they will not behave as though they are the baddies, will not conduct themselves as though they are criminals. You have to be able to spot them beginning to act, yes, but in an important sense they are not concealing themselves or their intentions: the nature of what they are leaves them vulnerable. They can’t change that: even if they believe that all the Deep State are in on the conspiracy, they are still prone to believe any ordinary person they meet, any cop or soldier they are friendly to, must be on THEIR SIDE and so they will not practice what you’d call opsec.
To do so would be to admit they themselves are the criminals, and the WORLD is their victim. And they need to believe the world is with them and there’s just a much smaller (((cabal))) of evildoers, that ‘most people’ are just like them.
Which isn’t true. They’re batshit insane.
Uncle Cosmo
The latter. From the Wiki entry it seems no one is certain where the tune came from (other than it didn’t come from HW) though there are a couple of candidates for the Urmelodie.
I mostly agree that the tune without the words is relatively harmless in most circumstances, but the Bavarian-style-beer-hall setting was IMO a bit too evocative for comfort.
Uncle Cosmo
@Matt McIrvin:
I see their point as well – it’s about where I was in my mid-20s. The occasional frisson of nostalgia I feel for my Baby Bolshevik days normally gives way to cynicism in that the economy runs far less according to “scientific” principles (as the Marxists claim) than as a vast exercise in game theory.
I think most of us would agree with Senator/Perfesser Warren that “unregulated capitalism is theft” and would simply want vast assemblages of wealth (personal or corporate) to act as good citizens of the political units where they operate – which they will not do absent intelligent and effective regulation.
Ian
@Chetan Murthy:
What they deserve is a fair trial and the subsequent punishment under law.