A need has been expressed for more general threads on Sunday morning. And the Atlantic obliges with subject matter. I haven’t read it yet, but some of the commentary is hilarious.
But of course it’s no laughing matter how Barr contributed to the destruction TFG wrought, even if now he assures us he was keeping him from worse. Wink, wink.
It’s the requisite apology tour before Barr takes up his post at the Heritage Foundation or whatever democracy-undermining place he winds up at.
And this is your Sunday morning political and whatever that’s not garden open thread.
debbie
Yeah, well, he should have spoken up. Silence is complicity.
MattF
Well, bearing in mind that Barr is an enemy of the people, and an evil SOB, the article is evidence that he did the right thing here. Along with McConnell, who was (correctly) concerned about the possibility that Trump’s bullshit would produce D wins in the Senate races in Georgia.
Mike in NC
After Rudy gets booted from the legal profession, they need to do the same to Bill Barr and every other dirtbag who worked in the Orange Clown’s Russian White House. He was merely trying to find somebody as toxic as his mentor Roy Cohn.
OzarkHillbilly
I’m going to be puking all day because of this.
debbie
?
JPL
So McConnell sought help from Barr for political reasons. Nothing to see here.
germy
WELLINGTON, Ohio (AP) – Former President Donald Trump reprised his election grievances and baseless claims of fraud as he returned to the rally stage Saturday, holding his first campaign-style event since leaving the White House.
“This was the scam of the century and this was the crime of the century,” Trump told a crowd of thousands at Ohio’s Lorain County Fairgrounds, not far from Cleveland, where he began making good on his pledge to exact revenge on those who voted for his historic second impeachment.
The event was held to support Max Miller, a former White House aide who is challenging Republican Rep. Anthony Gonzalez for his congressional seat. Gonzalez was one of 10 GOP House members who voted to impeach Trump for his role in inciting the deadly Jan. 6 insurrection at the Capitol building. Trump has vowed to back those who run against them.
And while he praised Miller as an “incredible patriot” and a “great guy” who “loves the people of Ohio,” Trump spent much of the rally fixating on the 2020 election, which he insists he won, even though top state and local election officials, his own attorney general and numerous judges, including some he appointed, have said there is no evidence of the mass voter fraud he alleges took place.
Trump has been consumed with ongoing efforts to overturn the results in various states, and has even publicly entertained the idea that he could somehow be reinstated into office, even though no legal or constitutional basis for doing so exists.
“The 2020 presidential election was rigged,” he told the crowd, which at one point broke into a “Trump won!” chant. “We won that election in a landslide.” In reality, President Joe Biden’s victory was thoroughly validated by the officials who reported finding no systemic fraud.
Saturday’s focus on the election lies of 2020 began even before Trump arrived. The pre-show included a PowerPoint-style presentation by a man who claims an algorithm was used to manipulate the election results. And Mike Lindell, the My Pillow founder-turned-conspiracy theorist who has spent millions trying to prove the election was stolen, was hailed as a hero by some in the crowd, who chanted his name and jockeyed for photos as he milled around.
When Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, a far-right Republican from Georgia known for her incendiary rhetoric, asked the crowd who their president is, they boomed loudly, “Trump!”
“President Trump is my president, too” she said.
The event had many of the trappings of the rallies Trump held as a candidate and as president. There was the eclectic playlist, the same stage design, and many familiar volunteers. Trump even reprised his performance of “The Snake,” a song he has used as an allegory for illegal immigration, and the crowd chanted “Lock her up” at the mention of Hillary Clinton, the Democrat he defeated in 2016 But gone was the grand entrance using Air Force Once as a backdrop, and the pomp that surrounds any sitting president.
Still, traffic through the afternoon was backed up from the fairgrounds into town, where pro-Trump signs dotted residents’ lawns. On street corners, vendors sold “Trump 2024” flags and other merchandise as supporters arrived.
“I just love him,” said Karen Barnett, 60, who drove from Dayton, Ohio and arrived at the fairgrounds around 3 a.m. after hopping in her car with “no sleep, nothing” when she heard the line was growing.
The rally, held five months after Trump left office under a cloud of violence, marks the beginning of a new, more public phase of his post-presidency. After spending much of his time behind closed doors building a political operation and fuming about the last election, Trump is planning a flurry of public appearances in the coming weeks. He’ll hold another rally in Florida over the July Fourth weekend unattached to a midterm candidate and will travel to the southern border in the coming week to protest Biden’s immigration policies.
The rally came as Trump, who has continued to tease the possibility that he will mount a comeback run for the White House in 2024, faces immediate legal jeopardy. Manhattan prosecutors informed his company Thursday that it could soon face criminal charges stemming from a wide-ranging investigation into the former president’s business dealings. The New York Times, citing sources familiar with the matter, reported that charges could be filed against the Trump Organization within days. Trump has denounced the investigations as nothing more than a “witch hunt” aimed at damaging him politically.
Although Trump remains a deeply polarizing figure, he is extremely popular with the Republican base, and candidates have flocked to his homes in Florida and New Jersey seeking his endorsement as he has tried to position himself as his party’s kingmaker.
Trump has said he is committed to helping Republicans regain control of Congress in next year’s midterm elections. But his efforts to support – and recruit – candidates to challenge incumbent Republicans who have crossed him put him at odds with other Republican leaders who have been trying to unify the party after a brutal year in which they lost control of the White House and failed to gain control of either chamber of Congress.
So far, nine of the 10 House Republicans who voted for Trump’s impeachment have drawn primary challengers. And Trump has offered to support anyone who steps forward to challenge the remaining candidate, Rep. John Katko of New York, syracuse.com reported.
Gonzalez, a former college and professional football player, has stood by his impeachment vote in the face of fierce criticism from his party’s conservative wing, including his censure by the Ohio Republican Party. Miller, in opening remarks, labeled him an “anti-Trumper” who had betrayed Trump, the Republican Party and his district with his vote.
Trump’s rallies have been instrumental to his politics since he launched his 2016 campaign. The former reality star is energized by performing in front of his audiences and often test-drives new material and talking points to see how they resonate with the crowd. His political operation also uses the events to collect critical voter contact information from attendees and as fundraising tools.
And they have spawned a group of hardcore fans who traveled the country, attending dozens of rallies, often camping out overnight to snag prime spots. Some of those supporters began lining up outside the venue early in the week as they reunited for the event.
Others were attending their first rallies, having felt compelled to turn out in the election’s aftermath.
They included Chris Laskowski, 55, who lives in Medina, Ohio. “We miss him,” she said. “I think they robbed him of the election and he’s still our president.”
She wasn’t alone.
“He’ll be back in August,” predicted Peggy Johnson, 60, who had traveled from Michigan to attend what she said was her seventh Trump rally. “He actually is president now.”
MattF
Barr is a very bad guy.
Wag
That was an interesting quick read. I do not doubt the veracity of any of it. Barr righty kept this head down and his mouth shut during the entire transition. Would I have preferred that he be out on every cable network shouting that TFG was trying to steal the election? Absolutely. Am I glad that he, by all appearances, slow rolled TFG’s attempts to overturn the election? Again, absolutely. Not a hero, but in this single instance, not a villain.
And yes, Barr was a villain for much of his time in office.
germy
@germy:
A crowd of thousands. Traffic was backed up.
ian
Profile in courage, that gravedigger of democracy.
Joe Falco
That egotistical wanna-be monarch bastard would refer to himself in the third person.
debbie
And yet, he would still get their vote today.
Baud
Is “even the odious Bill Barr says the election was legitimate” the equivalent of “even the liberal New York Times yadda yadda yadda“?
Baud
@Joe Falco:
Baud does that.
Geminid
I never thought Barr had any particular loyalty to trump. Barr spent decades advancing the interests of wealthy conservatives like those backing the Federalist Society. He took the AG job to advance their interests. For Barr, trump was a means to an end.
MattF
@debbie: The ‘he’s boring’ response is more significant than it looks. ‘Boredom’ here is probably a sign of repressed hostility.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
And Barr obliged him. Move along, move along.
A
Classic reputation laundering at its finest. The only consolation is that it will taken his fat carcass eternity to burn in hell.
debbie
@MattF:
Bored of Trump? I can’t imagine a worse insult could be hurled at TFG.
UncleEbeneezer
SiubhanDuinne
@MattF:
Barr makes John Mitchell look like an altar boy
JPL
@Wag: The article was “bullshit”, because it tried to portray Barr as someone who did the right thing. Politics was not suppose to influence the justice department, but it did.
Baud
@debbie:
The right votes their fear and hate, not their inspiration.
SiubhanDuinne
@Joe Falco:
SiubhanDuinne is not amused.
Geminid
@germy: Anthony Gonzales won’t just roll over. Max Miller will have to fight for that nomination, trump’s endorsement notwithstanding.
Miller will try to make the contest about trump. Gonzales will try to make it about Miller: a rich kid who stayed in trouble with the law, a carpetbagger from Shaker Heights who spends more time in Florida than his new home.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
“While I disagree with her on many things, Ivy League educated WASP scion of Connecticut old money agrees with me that the real problem in American society is liberal authoritarian elite tendencies to criticize the earnest, if somewhat misguided, feelings of hard working Americans from non-elite places. Compared to that, the inclinations of the Trump Administration to bust some reads and shoot protestors is an understandable correction.”
by Glenn Greenwald
Wag
@JPL: I agree that for the vast majority of his time at Justice, Barr worked to advance the political goals of TFG, he was, and is, reprehensible. On this one issues I’m glad he put country before Trump.
WaterGirl
@MattF: Great link!
Maybe we should promote this book and ignore the one that Barr wrote.
rikyrah
@JPL:
Uh huh???
rikyrah
@MattF:
Always has been a bad guy?
Uncle Cosmo
@OzarkHillbilly: I will simply note that essence is** French for gasoline/petrol…
** Or at least was when I was learning the language il y a plus que cinquante-cinq ans…
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne:
Neither is her twin, SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer.
Geminid
@Wag: Barr may have put the county’s interest before trump’s. But that may have been a secondary consideration. Barr may just have concluded that he and his wealthy masters had gotten their use out of trump, and trump was now a liability.
JPL
Next month The Atlantic will have an article praising Ivanka for preventing trump from acting on his worse impulses.
Uncle Cosmo
@germy: Don’t look now, but your post is about 12 paragraphs past fair use, and unless you can show the front-pagers permission from the source, needs to be deleted – or drastically shortened, with a link to the source.
brantl
@Baud: Well played, sir. That was meta-level snark.
SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer
@WaterGirl:
You got that right!
Wag
@Geminid: You very well could be right. If so, I’m glad the Barr and his enablers view Trump as a liability.
WaterGirl
@Uncle Cosmo: There is a link to the source in the first word of the quote.
UncleEbeneezer
We can be honest about the fact that Barr is a complete, power-hungry, authoritarian piece of shit, who still might have done the right thing in this instance (if only for selfish reasons). Both of these things can be true at the same time. I can still hate the fucker with the heat of a billion suns but be glad that he didn’t actively get on board with the Big Lie.
WaterGirl
@Geminid:
Maybe for 45 minutes after the election, but Barr was still doing bad shit right until the end.
Kay
We were lucky last time. There were (barely) enough state officials who upheld their oaths and did their jobs and Biden won by enough states that the Trump Administration and the conservative movement couldn’t fight and win a 5 front war in 5 weeks, and they knew it. We won’t be that lucky again. The state election administration and adjudication and decision making structure have already changed from 2020- Republicans have now passed state laws to tighten it up and make it easier to steal the next one.
IMO, the biggest mistake we could make was to look at what was a near-miraculous save as “the system worked”. None of it worked. What rescued the failure was individuals, mostly at the state level, who wouldn’t violate their oaths.
germy
Profiles in courage.
prostratedragon
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Saw an episode of L&O called “Political Animal” the other night, and thought of that dude.
Another Scott
@rikyrah: +1
Barr got the job by writing a fawning letter about the Mueller investigation basically saying that the president can do whatever he wants.
He’s a very bad man.
Cheers,
Scott.
sdhays
@Baud: That’s actually no longer 100% true (or, at least, that’s what it seems from the last 3 elections). There is a big chunk of voters who are disgustingly “inspired” but Dump, and Dump alone. They showed up in greater numbers than expected in 2016, didn’t show up in 2018 (thus handing the Democrats the House), and then really showed up in 2020 but were fortunately still not a majority in a majority of states.
2022 will test these voters, but if they’re growing tired of the man who activated them in the first place, many of them very well may just go back to not voting.
germy
Kay
“June 25, 2021
WASHINGTON — The Republican-controlled State Legislature in Arizona voted Thursday to revoke the Democratic secretary of state’s legal authority in election-related lawsuits, handing that power instead to the Republican attorney general.”
We’ll only get lucky once.
germy
Mary G
I don’t care what Bill Barr did after it became apparent that TFG was going to lose the 2020 election. He knew he would get no “Get Out of Jail Free” card, so he cynically got off the dead horse and started this rehab of his reputation. No sale. He’s just the one minion who dumped TFG before he dumped them.
Fucking over Mueller and his investigation makes him dead to me. He could save a plane full of Boy Scouts and nuns from a fiery crash and he would still be garbage.
Cameron
@WaterGirl: Barr belongs in prison.
Danielx
William Barr celebrity rehab tour, coming soon to a morning talk show near you!
Another Scott
@Kay: We’re not doomed.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/assistant-attorney-general-kristen-clarke-delivers-remarks-announcing-lawsuit-against
Cheers,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: I don’t agree with your framing of we won because we are lucky. Luck had little to do with it.
germy
Baud
@Mary G:
Like so many others, Barr only looks good in comparison to Trump.
Wag
@UncleEbeneezer: Absolutely right
Amir Khalid
I wonder why it took these people until now to turn on TFG, andwhy are doing it so discreetly.. He’s been toxic for the Republican party for years. Now he’s trying to turn the party into his personal cult, sowing division in its ranks between those for him and those against. Right now he is the greatest danger to the party, and Republicans are treating him like an honoured leader.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
“Certainly, Trump’s personal directives to the DOJ to assure his re-election and to target his political rivals cause eyebrows to raise, but that pales in comparison to the inherent threat posed by General Milley’s incomprehensible desire to examine the role of white supremacy with regard to racial divisions in the country.”
– by Glenn Greenwald and David Sirota
O. Felix Culpa
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I think you are quoting spoof accounts, but it would be helpful if you provided links to the source.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: The “may” is a skeptical “may.” I would have done better to italicize it.
I think Barr is a gimlet-eyed realist, not an enthusiast. As are the bulk of his wealthy sponsors. They are already picking out their next Presidential prospect, one not as lazy and erratic as trump. They will try very hard to elect him, and they don’t care how it’s done.
NotMax
The phrase “turd polishing” comes to mind,
Betty Cracker
Karl is catching some shit for reporting this story. I don’t think that’s fair, even though he does play a role in Barr’s attempted rehab tour. It’s still news and better to have it on the record than not, IMO. We know Barr is a liar; the pre-spin on the Mueller report removed all doubt about that. The way Karl ends the piece — with a description of Barr’s servile resignation letter — underscores Barr’s cowardice.
To me, the most interesting thing is the way the story is being received. Just to call out one sidebar issue, a (former) sitting US Senate majority leader confirms he was playing politics when the safe and orderly transfer of presidential power hung in the balance. That would be shocking and shameful in a healthy democracy. No one even raises an eyebrow here because we all know that’s just who McConnell is.
We’re boiled frogs.
debbie
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
JFC, now he’s supporting violence.
hells littlest angel
@Baud: Literally every other human being on Earth looks good in comparison to Trump.
debbie
@UncleEbeneezer:
Worse is McConnell, who knew it was a lie, but sought to exploit it for his own ends. Traitor.
JPL
@NotMax: ????
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@O. Felix Culpa:
I’m the one doing the spoofing, all in the self-righteous tone and mien of the “left” pundits I’m slagging.
debbie
@Kay:
Those same state officials are lining up to oppose Garland’s fighting back against voter suppression. Scary.
O. Felix Culpa
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I see. The spoofs are good, but because they’re so on target lend themselves to misunderstanding (see debbie at #65). Maybe add snark tags?
TomatoQueen
The book will be available at Powell’s on July 6 at the usual publisher’s list of $29, but there is a notifier link for first availability of a “used” edition. Bookshop.org doesn’t have it yet, likely they will, and in an eBook edition.
I Have Closed My Amazon Account. Bezos is Dead to Me.
Villago Delenda Est
No one in his or her right mind does not hate Trump. This is not to say that conniving fascist shitstain Barr is in his right mind.
Villago Delenda Est
@hells littlest angel: Vlad Putin libelz!
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
Oh, I agree with Kay. We were lucky that enough of his followers were too lazy to get off their fat asses and vote. We were even luckier that most of his supporters are idiots (“bamboo fibers”?) and his attorneys/legal staff are morons embarrassing their profession.
germy
@Geminid:
I wonder if they’re eyeing JD Vance
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
2024 – “Look, we had way too many questions about the integrity of the vote, and in accordance with our powers granted by law, we declared our guy the winner despite the really lopsided vote count, so it’s legal and everything.
Any protests will be treated harshly, because that’s the law, and citizens of Arizona are obligated to follow.
Now stand for the National Anthem and the freedom it represents, you commie traitors!”
Villago Delenda Est
@germy:
Given that Karl is yet another worthless Villager stenographer, what do you expect?
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t think she’s saying we won because we are lucky. I think she’s saying we’re lucky that our win wasn’t overturned by craven Republican officials and that we might not be so lucky next time. She’s right.
Villago Delenda Est
@Geminid:
I think that’s the case.
The “wealthy masters” who support the treasonous gang that is The Federalist Society need the full French treatment.
germy
@Villago Delenda Est:
Very little.
WaterGirl
@Cameron: Could not agree more – Barr does belong in prison.
Baud
@Villago Delenda Est:
We need to kiss them with tongue?
The Moar You Know
Someone tell the Atlantic they don’t have to do the laundry for Republicans.
Elizabelle
Good morning, jackals. And thank you, thank you, thank you Cheryl for an alternative thread. Moar of this, please.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Good morning, ‘belle.
Geminid
@germy: Vance is running well back in polling for the Ohio Senate nomination. The last poll I saw had Mandel at 24%, Timkin at 21%. Vance was several spots back at 4%. I think Vance is just building clout.
Barr and company are probably looking at Pompeo and DeSantis. They might put their money on both and see who is more popular among primary voters. That’s assuming DeSantis wins reelection, which right now seems likely.
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: But didn’t we know that “revelation” at the time of the election? Maybe not those exact words, but the candidates and the rest of the party were saying as much. “Gotta win Georgia, so we can’t say anything bad about TFG…”
I like Serwer (though I don’t read him very much). I don’t like these “OMG! Look at what they said to our sources 6-9-12 months ago!!11 Read all about it in our NEW story / tweet thread / book / TV show / movie / musical / theme park!!11” It’s too much like that old New Yorker cartoon with the family sitting around the campfire in the desolate wasteland “… but her emails…”
YMMV.
Cheers,
Scott.
Just One More Canuck
@WaterGirl: I’m waiting for Subaru Diane to chime in
randy khan
@germy:
I was going to compare them to Deadheads or Juggaloos, but both of those groups are benign, which you can’t say for MAGAs. And the MAGAs probably would want to beat up people from either of the other groups.
germy
@Geminid:
I’m thinking more long range, rather than this election cycle.
I’m wondering if wealthy GOP sponsors are looking at JD Vance and saying “That boy could be president someday…”
Baud
@Another Scott:
I tend to agree. It’s good to have more info out there (if it’s credible), but it doesn’t really interest me that much.
Betty Cracker
@Another Scott: Karl says he interviewed Barr for the story “this spring,” so it doesn’t sound like he was withholding important information. I agree those kinds of revelations are infuriating. (See Woodward, Bob.)
Elizabelle
@Baud: Hello bud.
OT, since I need to catch up with this thread: I have been so sad about the people lost in the Surfside condo collapse. There one minute, gone the next.
BUT: we were losing over 160 people every single day to COVID. Multiples more. For months on end. But they were silent, hidden away deaths, retail rather than wholesale. Death so dispersed does not reveal its true toll, and COVID is still taking victims, here and especially abroad.
Not a cheery thought, but helps to put the past year in perspective. Had the number of daily deaths been as visible, it might have been harder to gear up the resistance to masks and all the dissembling we were subjected to.
And now Bill Barr: may he get what is coming to him, in his lifetime.
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: But if it were so easy to throw out election results, surely it would have been done long before now.
TFG had the White House, the GQP in the states, he had the DoJ, he had the Pentagon, he controlled the DC National Guard, and on and on. And he lost.
It’s not going to be easier next time.
Yes, we have to fight them every single day. But they’re not 10 feet tall. They don’t control everything. They’re not evil geniuses that are thinking up One Weird Trick that will keep them in power forever.
We need to be clear-eyed about the dangers and how to fight them. This “we got lucky” talk reminds me of the 9/11 freakout. 19 guys took advantage of a previous weakness. They didn’t take over the country…
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Just One More Canuck: I wonder if Subaru Diane is a less intimidating younger sister?
Geminid
@Amir Khalid: I think many Republican leaders and donors despise trump for the charlatan he is. But even if they do not want trump, they want his voters. I’ve said this before: if they thought they could get away with it, people like Mitch McConnell and Karl Rove would have trump poisoned.
Another Scott
Imagine that. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
FWIW, I believe Bill Barr is still looking for a job.
Frank Wilhoit
“…I’m going to do it at the appropriate time.”
Translation: I have no idea how to do it or how to recognize when the right time is.
SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer
@Cheryl Rofer:
I hope you’re still around! Wanted to let you know that John Adams’ opera Doctor Atomic will be available to stream live on demand beginning Tuesday evening, June 29, at 7:30pm. The window closes the following evening at 6:30pm. Go to METOpera.org to view it.
Tuesday, June 29 — John Adams’s Doctor Atomic
Starring Sasha Cooke, Thomas Glenn, Gerald Finley, and Richard Paul Fink, conducted by Alan Gilbert. Production by Penny Woolcock. From November 8, 2008.
Doctor Atomic is an opera by the contemporary American composer John Adams, with a libretto by Peter Sellars. It premiered at the San Francisco Opera on October 1, 2005. The work focuses on the great stress and anxiety experienced by those at Los Alamos National Laboratory while the test of the first atomic bomb (the “Trinity test”) was being prepared. In 2007, a documentary was made about the creation of the opera, titled Wonders Are Many.
I’ve never seen Doctor Atomic and I’m really looking forward to it!
ETA: Times are EDT, I’m pretty sure. I’m in the Eastern time zone, so I don’t have to worry about converting. The announcement from the Met didn’t specify whether EDT or local, but shouldn’t be an issue anyhow except on the edges of the window.
kindness
It’s novel to see the chiefs that facilitated the Trump regime’s worst constitutional transgressions try to claim they saved us all from Trump’s worst impulses. Bill Barr’s utopia might be a little less openly fascist than Trumps but still fascist. He’d spruce it up with Opus Dei topping is the only difference.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
I know you don’t agree with it. Forgive me, but the voting and election process experts I have been following for 20 years are basically screaming that the house is on fire. It’s unanimous. I’m going with their analysis.
It’s already a different battle than 2020. They changed the election laws. That’s not a political strategy, it’s a legal strategy. I did not imagine this. It’s already occurred. It isn’t Maggie Haberman carrying water for Trump to sell a book, it isn’t “media” and a positive attitude doesn’t make it go away. So you have one of two choices- either prepare for the next round or don’t. The next round will more difficult.
Villago Delenda Est
OT: Tracktown USA is bracing for 113F/45C this afternoon. The hounds of Hell are on the loose!
Anoniminous
Nevermind – it was snarking
RobertDSC-Mac Mini
Speaking of books, does anyone have a website or online marketplace that they buy paperback books from that is reliable?
I recently lost a lot of my books to termites and am looking to replace what was lost with used paperbacks.
Another Scott
Earlier I said that experts need to be listened to, but they also have a responsibility to write clearly for non-experts so that they understand the ramifications.
Re the Surfside building collapse:
Suzanne made the point that real inspections can often only be done via demolition. And hindsight is 2020, but it seems like the engineering firm should have talked more about the dangers. (It may be that the building collapsed for other reason, of course.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: And among other things, the DOJ is filing lawsuits based on those changes.
Just One More Canuck
@WaterGirl: One never knows, does one
Betty Cracker
@Another Scott: The red lights are blinking. Remember that statement of concern signed by more than 100 election law scholars, poli-sci professors, etc., which expressed alarm about future elections being stolen? Here’s an excerpt:
No one is saying Republicans are “10 feet tall” or “control everything,” but saying we dodged a bullet last time and might not be so lucky next time is just the damn truth, IMO.
germy
alikins
It seems to me there is a fundamental issue with serving as a legislator when that legislator doesn’t recognize the validity of the President under whom they serve.
She erodes democracy every time this bullshit pours out of her maw. I wish there was a way to sanction her. Or jettison her from the planet.
germy
Villago Delenda Est
@germy: Good catch on southpaw’s part.
germy
@alikins:
Maybe crossfit will get her.
SiubhanDuinne
Just changing my nym back. Hope I didn’t scare Cheryl at #101!
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Hasen is an election law expert. He’s not a political operative or organizer or grifter. He’s not a bombthrower. He is as worried as I have ever seen him.
He’s not alone. I can give you ten more.
I have no problem with breathing a sigh of relief that we carried enough states and there were enough GOP officials who wouldn’t violate their oaths and we had Democratic voting officials in key states and counties and they were aggressive and pro-active and had state law they could use and Trump’s lawyers sucked. It took all of that, at once for it to “work”. That’s a near miss.
RSA
@WaterGirl: The fair use part is still open. It’s almost 1200 words written by Jill Colvin and Hope Yen for the Associated Press, and nobody knows that unless they follow the link.
JPL
@germy: I’m shocked!
WaterGirl
@Frank Wilhoit: Possible translation #2:
“My judgment is so bad that I should not be trusted to feed your goldfish while you are away on a 2-day trip.”
germy
@alikins:
Cheryl Rofer
@SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer: Thanks. I think that production is the one with people in little boxes. I recommend it for anyone interested. It is one way to frame the story.
The one I really liked was Peter Sellers’s production for the Santa Fe Opera in 2018. Previously, all the productions had used period costuming and such. Sellers chucked all that out the window in favor of a looming sphere throughout.
Here’s my review of Sellers’s production.
alikins
@RobertDSC-Mac Mini: AbeBooks.com is my favorite, particularly if you like hard-to-find or specialty books. Once you find your book, look for all instances of the title and you’ll find even more affordable options.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I worry when we throw out our own experts. That’s concerning.
frosty
@RobertDSC-Mac Mini: I’ve used abebooks.com, which may have been bought out by Amazon. Also, Powell’s (Portland OR)!and the Strand (NYC) sell used books.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: So all the agency lies with Rs we are just mute spectators to our eventual horrible fate? Is that the take?
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Why do you think that I don’t get the danger we are in? What does Maggie Haberman have to do with what I said.
PST
@Betty Cracker:
I couldn’t agree more with this or the rest of Ms. Cracker’s comment. It may be old news that Barr told TFG there was no known fraud, but the interview also reveals that other insiders were saying right from the outset that he lost, his lawyers and their arguments were crap, and there was no evidence of meaningful fraud. It is good to see that publicized again now that the “crime of the century” tour is underway. In addition, it is interesting to know that Barr made DOJ look into the crazy allegations, even if he now claims that was due diligence so he could tell TFG that he’s investigated. The bottom line is that Barr is beyond rehabilitation. There is no one on earth — left, right, and/or crazy — who doesn’t view Barr with a skeptical eye, so getting his story on the record isn’t implicitly an endorsement of his credibility. Even if it were, he has no credibility with any side now. Reporters like Karl face a dilemma, but he made the right call. I’m glad I read it.
WaterGirl
@RSA: I was speaking to the “it needs to be deleted and a link to the source added” part.
I do wish that on BJ that everyone who posts a block quote would not only just link to the source, but also name the source outright. I think that would go a long way.
Not every browser is set up to be able to hover over a link and see the URL, and no one can be expected to click a link in order to see the source of an article.
But that’s just my opinion and I don’t set the rules.
cckids
@randy khan: As long as I live, I will never understand what it is about Trump that drew these people. Most Repub politicians are racist, hateful scumbags; some are much, much better about hiding it; more competent, less of an embarrassment to the social, family and political ideals the supporters supposedly embrace. WHY TRUMP?? It boggles the imagination.
Doug R
Note trump’s language, he knows the big lie ain’t true.
Geminid
@germy: Vance might have long term potential as a poltician. Right now his appeal seems pretty narrow, I think. There will be no shortage of people in his age group with similar outlook who will prove their vote-getting ability in red state and district contests. And Vance is wealthy now. He may be content to haunt the right wing TV and radio shows as a guest “intellectual,” and take a pass on the hard work of winning and holding office.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
It’s not a “take”. It’s an analysis of election law. “Takes” are not part of this.
For me, I’ll just say this and it’s going after my own tribe. The legal establishment played down Roberts gutting the Voting Rights Act. I don’t know if they were protecting “the institutions” or ass kissing the supreme court (a real weakness for lawyers) or WTF is wrong with them but they didn’t pull the alarm. I don’t think any of them anticipated the absolutely ruthless attack that followed, state level. I knew it was bad and even I didn’t anticipate how bad. That happened.
We (now) know how this goes. We have no excuse this time.
J R in WV
@Geminid:
You don’t build clout with 4% several spots back — you just look stupid and ineffective.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: Nope. Not a single person has said that, at least in this thread. Can’t speak for anyone else, but my take is that we have to fight this tooth and nail, and that starts with understanding the gravity of the situation. The DOJ announced Friday that it is suing GA. That’s a good start, though from what I read, it’s by no means a slam-dunk case.
ian
@O. Felix Culpa:
It’s a poor argument when you have to invent words into your opponents mouth. With proper effort, we could easily find words that those guys actually said to trash them, should we so have the motivation.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Well Kay disagrees with you and she has appealed to the authority of 100 experts of election law. We are doomed. See #133
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Because I feel as if you’re still stuck in “don’t take it seriously and it will go away”
It won’t. January 6th is in some ways a distraction from what has been and is a concerted, serious and mostly successful effort to change election law to support the next attack. That’s what they’re doing. I’m not worried about the guy with the confederate flag kidnapping Nancy Pelosi. I’m worried about conservatives stripping Fulton County, GA of the ability to resolve a ballot dispute, or submit a certified count. Election law, broadly, is not grand pronouncements of civil rights. It’s a state recording process. Control the state recording process and you control elections. It’s the guts of the thing that matters- the nuts and bolts. Who has standing to bring a petition, who makes interim calls on disputes, which courts hear what and can a court hear it at all? THAT’S the threat.
germy
@J R in WV:
Republicans are shameless, and they play a long game. I remember Nixon’s press conference “You won’t have Nixon to kick around anymore” and then a few years later he was in the White House.
debbie
@Kay:
It’s not just election laws either. DeSantis intends to question and test the loyalty of Florida students.
Isn’t he screwing around with First Amendment protections? Isn’t it time for the DOJ to open an investigation of ALEC?
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: I agree.
Jackals: please always name the source of your link. Especially if the source has a paywall.
For example, one of the links above had one of those shortened URLs, and turns out to be an Atlantic article. Paywall!
I hate blind links. It’s, what, 20 extra seconds to describe where the link came from?
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Wow now you read minds too! You have no fucking idea what I am thinking. You are being presumptuous.
Flying into a panic when I am in danger is not my style. Neither is ignoring something and hoping it will go away. Just because I don’t react like you doesn’t mean I don’t understand what is going on.
I was directly affected by the Orange Clown’s ascension. I know what is at stake.
WaterGirl
Anne Laurie’s soccer thread for the noon game is up:
Euro 2020 Round of 16 Open Thread: Netherlands v Czech Republic
Citizen Alan
@randy khan: I wish the MAGAts would pick a fight with juggalos.
Geminid
@J R in WV: Vance is buildng clout as an “intellectual.” And if Mandel or Timkin loses to Tim Ryan, some will call him prescient. But I still think Vance has a low ceiling.
Danielx
@Baud:
I am sure a sinecure awaits him at Heritage or AEI.
Gvg
@Kay: it is always going to come down to individuals. There is no system that doesn’t, no fix that can change that.
we need to find a way to praise and protect those who are complete hero’s and deal with the nuance of scum that weren’t quite total traitors or were just team Republican with some honor.
we need better whistleblower protections and teach more of society how they are supposed to work.
we need Democratic wins everywhere.
But there is still no fix that isn’t going to come down to individuals doing the right thing. That was actually always one of the terrifying things about nuclear weapons to.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cheryl Rofer:
Thank you. That’s a fine review. I should have known that you of all people would be very familiar with the opera in various productions!
RSA
I agree. I also wish people would limit the amount of text from news sources they quote. It’s great for us readers, but the reporters, editors, and so forth need to get paid somehow, even if it’s by ad views.
Geminid
@cckids: trump turned out to be an effective demagogue, and that is something beyound rational analysis. If he had not been so lazy and undisciplined, we might be in far worse trouble than we are..
But trump showed Republicans that fascism sells, and how to sell it. They will try to make the most of this lesson.
Omnes Omnibus
I agree. Every institution ultimately relies on the people within it.
Gvg
@Amir Khalid: Because the Republican Party has been on the verge of a civil war for years now and neither part can win anything without some of the others. There is actually no way they can maneuver out of the trap they are in. Part of their party is culture war racist and part is money that is ok with some racism/turn away but not blatant racism and incompetence and thuggishness. If they split, they both lose badly pretty much everywhere for years. Demographics are against them.
They have known it for years but could not convince the active racists to tolerate more pragmatism.
Because of their record, most minorities would want to see several years of active non racism before they would consider voting for a Republican. That means no immediate reward for changing course, but does mean losing voters right away. They are stuck.
I enjoy that but strategically I kind of think it would be better for all of us if their was a way for that party to back down safely.
Geminid
@Danielx: Barr is a lawyer, and it’s not that hard for wealthy people to kick some money a lawyer’s way. I think the conservative fat cats behind the Federalist Society will give their faithful servant his due.
Another Scott
Something something but I need a majority.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@RSA: It also is helpful for people reading on their phones.
topclimber
@Kay: I have wanted for some time to thank you personally for your prescience about GOP voting warfare. Hopefully, I have done this before this thread dies.
You saw this way back in the Post election period, when the first weeks had passed. Few if any notable Republicans admitted Biden had won. I was one of those sure that the GOP would come around when the Electoral College counted its votes. Well that was wrong.
I recall you saying that the Big Lie threatened to become the norm for all GOP voting challenges, not merely being a one-off prepared for our amusement by the comedy team of Rudy and the P-Grabber.
I also remember that some here found you a Chicken Little, or at least way too upset about what was clearly (like that word?) Kabuki theater. Maybe you got disgusted and left after few weeks? That is my memory, which is of sporadic use, but correct a fair number of times.
Once again, thanks for your many insights and for hanging in there.
Kay
@Gvg:
Well, no, not really. That’s what the guarantee of due process is – it’s a guarantee of process so we don’t have to rely solely on individuals, their subjective personal decisions. Republicans are not just replacing individuals. They’re changing the process.
There wouldn’t be a DOJ lawsuit against Georgia without Roberts gutting the VRA.
When process fails that’s when you’re relying on the “goodness” or “badness” of individuals. That’s where we are.
In a broad sense, to me, I’m being told “well, just put good people in!”
NOT what I was guaranteed. I had something better than that. I want that back.
trollhattan
@alikins:
My thought as well. When she took the oath of office to “defend the Constitution” it did not also have a clause indicating, “Or what I believe the Constitution to mean on a given day.”
And to think her seat is as safe as milk.
cmorenc
re: Bill Barr – the enemy of my enemy is sorta, kinda my friend, at least for the moment, until they revert to being an enemy of me. If Bill Barr can help undermine Trump’s election lies, more power…um no, wait, I wish him success at that one thing, but definitely not more power to Bill Barr beyond that one thing.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, in Virginia… BlueVirginia.US:
Elections have consequences. We need to continue the work – now – to increase turnout and participation even in the face of suppression efforts.
Cheers,
Scott.
dww44
@Gvg: I see plenty of people a lot younger than I (a Senior) who are fine with the GOP so I don’t buy into the demographics are against them arguments. While there is a credible argument that we need two sane and viable political parties, I think the preferred route would be for the current version of the GOP to spend a few more elections out of power. We need time to move the pendulum back towards liberalism for a good 20 years.
.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: No, I am sorry, but due process ultimately relies on individuals doing their jobs in good faith. The changes the GOP are making are to try to place decision-making in the hands of individuals who will not do their jobs in good faith. They are doing this because the institutions held in 2020. It was ugly, but the system worked. You are not wrong about the dangers posed by the changes in law that the GOP are pushing at the state level, but I think you do your argument harm when you say that the system didn’t work in 2020. YMMV and fairly obviously does.
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: +1
TFG and Moscow Mitch show us that rules and norms and laws and good-faith do not restrain bad actors. Ultimately, it comes down to having sensible people in positions of power.
Yes, rules and norms and laws and good-faith are important. But they’re not enough.
Cheers,
Scott.
Gvg
@RobertDSC-Mac Mini: I used to use addall.com It’s a search site that checks all the other sites like Abe and Powell’s, etc and list them all in price order. All of the major sellers have been fine for me. I click through the results to look over the description and condition of the book and postage plus things like how long to deliver. Sometimes the same seller is listed on multiple sites and one versions postage can be better. No idea why that happens. I decide how worn a copy I will settle for for price. If possible avoid overseas purchases as the shipping time is long.
Many local booksellers have long been on these online collective selling services. I acquired many during the early 90’s and they were invaluable then. Same ones still seem to be there. Including certain goodwills that seem to get a lot of science fiction for resale. I never had a problem with any of them.
ebay gets some too so you should check them. And once in a while Amazon is actually cheaper. Funny, they started in used books, now they don’t have as much though, except ebooks. That works for late night urge to read a specific book you can’t find anymore.
addall will check Amazon ebay and Walmart as well as many local bookstores. The used search takes some looking to see what it is. Sometimes with multiple additions to wade through and decide or if the title is the same as one by a different author….you just have to check each one.
Gvg
@dww44: I meant the browning of America, more minorities. That doesn’t guarantee gop losses but it sure makes it harder for them.
Gvg
@Kay: no, due process depends on the people in charge understanding and supporting it. Jim Crow and all the time black citizens weren’t even allowed a day in a court proves that. It’s always the people.
the kind of people who live up to these ideals need laws that are worth living up to it’s true, but every law can be useless if the ones in power “won’t” see other tribes as having any rights or able to be the one who are right.
There go two miscreants
@RobertDSC-Mac Mini: Not sure where you are located, but I have been using WonderBook; they are local here in MD so shipping is pretty fast for me. wonderbk.com
Brachiator
OT. Looks like TCM is doing a mini Hitchcock film festival. The lesser but intriguing film Rope is currently showing.
His 1956 remake of The Man Who Knew Too Much starts at 1:45 pm Eastern Time (but double check), followed by Grace Kelly in Dial M For. Later today is the problematic psychological thriller Marnie with Sean Connery and Tippi Hedren. And of course Psycho.
The delightful 1934 version of The Man Who Knew Too Much is scheduled for later this evening (or early Monday morning depending on time zone).
Ruckus
@SiubhanDuinne:
He may not be the worst but he really is like all the rest, they have no concept in their tiny minds of anything but self serving bullshit. Not self preservation, self serving. They will do or say most anything to get ahead, except the correct thing. They want the world to work in it’s worst way, because they think they will end up on top. But the world is changing, even for despots and kings. The biggest change is that it is easier to see, if one takes their head out of one’s ass long enough, that self serving assholes only make the world worse. At one time being a self serving asshole only meant that a few people would suffer, a few too many but not millions. But now that shitty human behavior screws far more people. SFB being in a position of power has killed hundreds of thousands of people by his attitude and his lack of seeing the world as anything other than a place to enrich himself – which, like every thing else, he’s shitty at. He’s a shitty human, raised by a shitty human, among many other shitty humans, whose only goal is to steal from others to make up for their shitty being. They have no idea how to be anything but shitty humans. They have no idea there is any other way to be human. And they are so shitty they won’t ever see that and understand it at all.
Uncle Cosmo
@WaterGirl: That’s beside the point. It’s still waaaaaaay too long for fair use and should be truncated to 3-4 paragraphs at most.
When Cole starts getting nasty cease-&-desists from news outlets because posters like “germy” can’t be bothered to obey generally accepted standards of fair use, don’t say I didn’t warn yinz.
Ruckus
@JPL:
If humans are involved, self serving bullshit, aka politics, will always be involved. It’s the level of self serving bullshit that is the biggest problem or that self serving bullshit is all there is. And conservatism, at it’s core, is self serving bullshit. Excuses have been made forever that it isn’t but every one of them has failed because that’s all it is.
NotMax
@Brachiator
Full list (final 8 still to go) from earlier in the week.
germy
@Brachiator:
I saw Rope in a theater and it was stunning. The audience jumped the first time Jimmy Stewart lost his temper.
Also, the set designs are spectacular… it’s fun to see the city out the window go from day to night gradually
Seeing it on a big screen, I felt like I was right there in the room.
Kathleen
@RobertDSC-Mac Mini:
https://www.abebooks.com/
When I worked at a university I was able to find an out of print text book for a student so their reach is wide and deep.
Omnes Omnibus
@Uncle Cosmo: Courts have found that the publishing an entire article online can be fair use. It is a four factor test and the amount of text copied is only one of the factors. Sorry, but it isn’t as clear cut as you suggest.
WaterGirl
@Uncle Cosmo: It’s true that I didn’t address both of your points.
But what I wrote is not BESIDE THE POINT – how is addressing half of what you said beside the point?
Ruckus
@Baud:
Change good to somewhat better than and I could agree with you.
glc
@alikins:
AbeBooks.com: they are good. They are, also, a branch of Amazon.
DB11
Late to the thread, but wanted to thank Kay and Betty Cracker for the clear-sightedness in identifying the nature and degree of the threat to democracy posed by the GOP’s efforts at delegitimizing Democratic electoral wins — by any means necessary, including changing the very basis of electoral law.
The election results held in spite of the (intentional) breakdown of the system at every level, only because there were still enough individuals (election officials/ state SOS) who performed their roles with legal/constitutional integrity.
But as Kay points out, any system that relies on the quality of the individual in order to sustain is inherently vulnerable. How can this be at issue when TFG showed how feeble all of constitutional/institutional guardrails were to a single bad actor in a key position?
The other salient point is that GOP state government are rapidly replacing those officials (that stood up) with party loyalists/extremists and/or stripping their offices of the power to certify and reverting it to purely political actors.
If you disagree with this assessment ask yourself: if the 2020 election were held today under the legal and personnel changes that have already been enacted (let alone those tabled but not yet enacted), does anyone really believe that the Dems would have been allowed to retain the election results they so clearly won?
It’s not an EITHER/OR for the GOP, it’s an AND : they are in the process of replacing good individuals with bad at every level AND they are changing the legal foundations of the electoral process.
Where Dem agency comes into play is what is done from this point forward by the party and its supporters — once the scope and urgency of the threat has been recognized. It’s not too late to reverse the outcome, but this is a stochastic period between stable phases where a single action (or inaction) can make the difference between which branch the outcome will finally stabilize around — democracy or fascism.
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
The entire party is toxic because they, as conservatives always have, they exclude rather than include. They have always tried to exclude those they don’t think are people, or who aren’t as selfish as they are. They have always tried to exclude progress, their entire premise is to regress.
Omnes Omnibus
@DB11: Please describe a system that involves humans that does not ultimately rely on the good faith participation of the individuals involved.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
Exactly.
Ruckus
@germy:
That is likely still too much…..
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
They did a damn good job of disrupting it and not a bad attempt to make it far worse.
DB11
@Omnes Omnibus: But that’s the point: a stable system relies on action(s) that appear to be in good faith (vis-a-vis following the prescribed rules).
Because it’s the actions that determine the eventual consequences (and not their originating intentions), a sustainable system must clearly identify and punish bad faith actions, while inducing and rewarding good ones.
How long has it been (if ever) since the American system has actually worked that way?
The current problem is that bad-faith actors currently have zero fear of punishment for their egregious behaviour — on the contrary they are protected from penalty (through corruption and subversion) and subsequently, positively rewarded by their party and its supporters for their partisan fealty.
So you should invert your question to read: Please describe how a system with no consequential legal (or social) penalties for the systematic destruction of necessary institutions has any chance of surviving
ETA: In case it wasn’t evident from my argument I should stipulate that a optimally-functioning system would be both (primarily) populated by good-faith actors AND have strong inducements / penalties to keep everyone inside the guardrails — regardless of their political leanings or personal inclinations.
Ruckus
@kindness:
I hate to say it but they may be right, they may have toned down his worse impulses. Because he is all impulses. SFB thinks that is thought, whatever crap pops into that racist lump of shit on top of his shoulders, and from some of what we’ve read, some of them did tone down some of his crap. They didn’t get anything moved to good but moving from worst to bad is toning down.
Don’t get me wrong, none of that wins them even an atta boy, but how bad would SFB have been without any restraints?
Omnes Omnibus
@DB11: Again, I think that the system worked in 2020. I think it was ugly, but it worked. The laws that the GOP are passing are a recognition that it did work. They are trying to change the system so that people they think will not operate on good faith within the rules will be the decision makers. This is worrisome and must be countered by massive turn out as well as the legal challenges that are starting to be filed.
Again, YMMV but my analysis is at least as valid as one that says everything is broken.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
“Liberal Democrat AOC insults honest, hard working Americans who are afraid of violent crime waves that they hear about on the news, like on my friend Tucker’s program. So why is she voting for a budget increase for the Capital Police when the 1/6/2021 event was simply a free speech rally?”
-by Glenn Greenwald
Ruckus
@cckids:
SFB’s attraction was that he was open, wide open about his racism and his lack of ability to exist for any other reason except to have money. His only 2 tenets in life are money and racism. And I’m not sure which is more important to him. I think the money side but that it is a close race.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
That’s JD.
DB11
@Omnes Omnibus: We’re probably not as much in disagreement at the core as one could surmise from the discussion. (a likely truism for most Ballon Juice conflagrations!)
I agree that — thanks to a handful of politically courageous individuals (talking here about Republicans that bucked TFG and the party to certify) — the system (barely) held.
But the weakened legal underpinnings of electoral law (thanks to Roberts court), and the stacking of federal courts with Federalist / GOP partisan judges means that the fair adjudication of disputed results is clearly under serious threat. In this election the results were clear enough that there were no serious legal challenges (to wit: Marc Elias & team’s win record in the courts, post election). We were also lucky in the differential of legal competence between our lawyers and theirs — again, not something to pin democracy itself on.
I’m not that interested in re-litigating recent history so much as to learn from it: and what we’ve learned is how vulnerable American democracy is to committed and organized bad actors who don’t recognize any authority other than their own.
What they’ve learned is that they just have to successfully bang a few more holes in to the legal / institutional damn — by replacing a few (more) individuals with bad actors AND by tilting the prevailing legal landscape in their direction — and all the power will flow their way… likely forever (or at least as long as we’re likely to remain alive).
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Geminid: what’s his onlyfans? @hillbillyturgidity?
Ruckus
@Kay:
Well said.
It isn’t individuals, it is the entire process. Yes individuals are involved and operate it but the system is the important part, secondary being that the people in and operating the system actually do that correctly. This is the basis of democracy, that the system makes the individuals the owners and the people that do the bits and pieces actually do the correct work. The conservatives changing the laws to their advantage and to the disadvantage of those who actually are the owners of the system is the problem.
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
Milk goes bad very rapidly when exposed to air and light.
Just like she does.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@alikins: laser harridan removal.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Why “massive turnout”? Has the standard now been lowered and there are special, unwritten margin rules for winning, but just for Democrats?
Did you read the interview with Barr? He wasn’t relying on rules. His approach was purely tactical- they only had five weeks, they had shitty lawyers and they thought it was politically beneficial for him to come out and say Biden won because McConnell’s strategy for Georgia was riding on GOP turnout based upon Democrats holding both the Presidency and Congress.
Some small changes in the facts and timing and they would have gone forward. Make no mistake. If they had seen the slightest window of opportunity Mr. Barr would have exploited it. No “institution” was stopping him. What stopped him was a 5 state front they’d have to fight on and only 5 weeks to get it done.
Omnes Omnibus
@DB11: My interest in describing the 2020 situation right way is that I think that making the case that the GOP is trying to destroy the remnants of a system that did work is 1) more accurate, and 2) more persuasive to less involved people. Saying it didn’t work when Biden ended up in the White House is, IMO, a harder lift than saying it did work and that the GOP is trying to dismantle it.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Rules and laws an institutions didn’t stop Barr. Circumstances stopped him. A specific set of facts that he couldn’t overcome. Slightly different facts – 2 fewer states, one less D in a state level office, Trump attracting or retaining a lawyer Barr respects- would have brought a different strategy, because that’s the only thing he was looking at. He didn’t do a legal analysis. He did a strategic one- “can I overturn this election given these facts?”
It’s untethered from the laws and rules. It is very simply what they can possibly get away with.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Why massive turnout? Because making it too lopsided to try to steal is a valid plan. And the systems and timing in those five states are part of the institutions.
We are not going to agree on this. That being said, I don’t deny the danger posed going forward.
mrmoshpotato
@Mike in NC:
And then boot all of this fascist fucking trash into the Sun!
“Hey Dump. The Sun sometimes is orange – like you!” (PUNT!)
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Then you’re outside the laws and rules and norms. That’s a defense based on the assumption that they will operate outside the laws and norms and rules. You’re now out there with them and you’ve allowed them to define what the new rules are.
It’s either rule bound or it’s not. If your defense assumes they won’t follow the rules and you’ll have to make an extraordinary showing to overcome illegality then you’re in the same place I am.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
When bank robbers set out to rob a bank they have already jettisoned the antibank robbery laws. Bank robbery laws don’t cause them to not rob banks. They’re outside that. Beyond it. They start beyond it.
People who set out to steal elections are the same. Barr doesn’t respect elections or laws. He’s looking at the broken-down junker of a get away car they gave him and calculating how fast he can get it up to 90 and then regretfully determining that the robbery was poorly planned and the bank happens to have two guards rather than one today anyway, so he’ll pass on this particular crime spree. Not because he objects to crime sprees or respects anticrime spree laws, but because he probably can’t pull it off.
mrmoshpotato
@germy:
Good lord. What trash.
Here’s one to ask about COVID-19! Wow.
Another Scott
TFG’s people were doing that – saying one thing, saying the opposite later – quite often. Liars do that.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Sure, I assume that the the GOP will try to cheat at the margins whenever they have an opportunity. Winning big makes sure that the system doesn’t get tested. That doesn’t mean that the system did not weather the tests of 2020.
I do think we fundamentally may approach this differently philosophically and that we will not agree. But, as DB11argued above, that may not really matter all that much because I think we do agree that there is a threat going forward.
Ksmiami
@Gvg: Not gonna happen unless or until the Fox-OANN-Facebook Rt wing universe is destroyed. Rt wing media has turned the GOP into toxic Twitter trolls where views and liberal outrage is more important than governance
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: If I concede that Barr was not constrained by laws or norms, will you be satisfied? I never argued that he was.
Ksmiami
@Kay: can we federalize elections under a new VRA? Mandate standards? Because either this gets fixed or America splits. I’m not being Cassandra here
Ksmiami
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: They really really haven’t thought this through though…
Ksmiami
Another Scott
@Ksmiami: I assume that a lot of these new state restrictions are going to be struck down under remaining DoJ authority that wasn’t gutted by Roberts, and/or Equal Protection arguments.
DoJ – Voting Section:
But it has to go through the process.
Presumably injunctions will be in place to prevent mischief before the 2022 elections if they’re not struck down before then.
That’s my guess anyway.
We have to do what we can and let the lawyers and courts handle their parts.
Cheers,
Scott.
Cameron
Barr will not do one single day of jail time.
WaterGirl
@Kay:
Sadly, the answer to your question is YES.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
If we’re no longer within the rules then we’re no longer within the rules. It is not the law anywhere that Democrats have a special increased burden to win an election, so what you are telling me is you’re relying on something else – outside laws and rules and norms- to prevail. A margin- whatever that might be- but we know it has to be more than 51-49. A GOP elected official who will break with the party. No judge ruling in their favor. This isn’t “the system”. It’s an accommodation to the fact that the system can no longer be relied upon to produce a result that is consistent with the laws and rules.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
Say I need a building permit and I know from experience that the government entity responsible for giving me one won’t give me one even if I qualify under the existing rules. I want to put up my garage, so I pay the issuing body 5000 in addition to the 200 fee for the permit, as a backstop. If I get my permit did the system work or did I adjust to the new corrupt, informal system by also operating outside it?
I’m operating outside the system. I had to. It wasn’t reliable enough to produce the right result even if I qualified under the rules. That’s what “a margin too big to steal” is. It’s a concession that the system won’t work.
Geminid
@Kay: Do you think new laws allowing state officials to override local election boards are vulnerable to challenges under the VRA? It looks like the Justice Department will try in the case of Georgia, and probably other states. Can Garland and company succeed? These seem like uncharted waters.
James E Powell
@Kay:
Agree completely. And I don’t think the general public knows or the press/media will explain that almost all of the people who have been running our elections for many years are people who are committed to the democratic process in a very strong boy/girl scout sense. They avoid speaking out in a partisan way. They are watching their worlds being prepared for destruction or outright dismantled.
If they are shouting, we all need to listen. And act.
boatboy_srq
Wondering whether the McConnell scenes and “quotes” are merely attempts by Barr to rehabilitate Turtle’s reputation as well as his own.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Not the case. In any election, there are always some irregularities. They only get litigated if they might make a difference. A fight over a few hundred votes won’t matter if the difference is hundreds of thousands, but if it is only a few hundred, then fighting over them matters.
gratuitous
Will it come as a shock to anyone that Jonathan Karl is writing a book about the former guy’s administration, and this absolve-fest for Bill Barr is part of it?
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: The 2020 New York 22nd Congressional District recount is a good example of a close, contested race. After about about seven weeks of litigation, and intensive recanvassing at the county level, Republican Claudia Tenney was declared the winner by about 200 votes. Judge Scott DelConte (elected as a Democrat) was so meticulous and thorough that incumbent Anthony Brindisi did not appeal.
WaterGirl
@Kay: I agree completely.
We are through the looking glass. Our Democracy is on shaky ground, just like the condominium in FL. What allowed it to hold in 2020/21 are the very pillars that the Republicans are trying to remove and destroy with all their legislation.
I think 2022 is our last chance for our democracy to hold, and then 2024 if we manage to keep the house in 2022.
That’s why we all need to fight like hell to keep it.