Scientists use new fossils to reconstruct the day the dinosaurs died.
"Dinosaur Apocalypse: The Last Day," the second installment of a two-part special, premieres WED MAY 11 at 9/8c on @PBS: https://t.co/dyR5fTN7ZI pic.twitter.com/JmILJD0zSi
— NOVA | PBS (@novapbs) May 10, 2022
I’m actually looking forward to watching this with the Spousal Unit (probably not tonight, though) but given current events its premiere *does* seem vaguely ominous…
While we wait for our asteroid:
Seems like Psaki came prepared for this question pic.twitter.com/RCd1iqZjdt
— Acyn (@Acyn) May 10, 2022
My plan will lower your costs. Congressional Republicans’ plan will lower your income.
It’s that simple. pic.twitter.com/tPWiglnQmf
— President Biden (@POTUS) May 10, 2022
Not especially complicated: "A growing number of Americans — Democrats, independents and even some Republicans — disapprove of the Supreme Court for the simple reason that they disagree with its new direction." https://t.co/hAMuharXUd
— Brendan Nyhan (@BrendanNyhan) May 10, 2022
17% of 18-24 year olds turned out in 2014. Democrats got pummeled.
32% of 18-24 year olds turned out in 2018. Democrats won.
If young people turn out, Democrats win. pic.twitter.com/LBNdpKPsLP
— Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) May 10, 2022
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone???
lowtechcyclist
So can we get on with canceling student loan debt already?
I mean, I realize that being a ‘Do Something’ Democrat is apparently a Bad Thing these days, but this IS something the Administration can actually DO. By itself. Even if Joe Manchin opposes it.
ETA: Yeah, I know that doesn’t solve the deeper problem of college affordability. But solving that would take Congressional action, even after we figured out what the solution was. Maybe we should just do what we can, right now
ETA2: Seriously, if you want a group’s votes, then do something that makes a difference to them. Machine politics 101. Let’s not be above that.
mrmoshpotato
Why didn’t they just ask Jesus?
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Soprano2
Good morning to you too!
So, my old kitty passed over the Rainbow Bridge peacefully yesterday. My vet is a good, compassionate one – he gave her meds to induce unconsciousness before he gave the final shot, so there was no struggling or gasping for breath, just a slow winding down and then stopping. She weighed 3 lbs 12 oz, so she was literally skin and bones. She probably wouldn’t have lasted more than another few days. I cried, and I feel bad, but I also know I did the right thing by her.
Did I mention that today is my sister’s birthday? She would have been 56. Can’t believe it’s been 10 years since I celebrated it with her. Tomorrow is my father’s birthday – that’s been 40 years. This week just kind of sucks for me no matter what.
Goku, if you post this morning I left a message for you here. Take it for what it’s worth, about $0.02.
Baud
@Soprano2:
My condolences.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Dinosaur apocalypse? Bah, that’s nothing next to the Great Oxygenation Event and the Cambrian Earth Worm Apocalypse.
Agiope
Mr Argiope & I tag-teamed to pressure our 19 year old into voting in the OH primaries. She was reluctant because she wanted to be responsible in her choices yet felt she didn’t know enough. She eventually did it, and afterwards said it was kind of fun—so I think we worked through the worries to results. But it took 2 of us coming at her with expectations of participation to overcome her busy college schedule and overall reluctance to adult in this way, and one parent going alone to show her the ropes (not me; she prefers her more laid back dad for new experiences. Ha!). Push, pull, & drag your young people until they feel competent because voting feels like a skill to them.
SFAW
A long, long time ago
I can still remember how dino roars used to make me scream
But I knew if I had my chance …
I’ll leave the rest to SubaruDianne, because she’s about a gazillion times better at this than I am.
Soprano2
Confidence in the Supreme Court has plummeted because the majority of people now realize that it’s no longer a somewhat impartial body, but instead one with a specific political agenda. If anyone had any doubts about that, Alito’s draft opinion made it extremely clear.
mrmoshpotato
@Soprano2: I’m sorry. Glad she crossed over peacefully.
Brachiator
@Soprano2:
My condolences. Please take care of yourself.
tom
@Soprano2: I’m sorry. That’s so tough.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@lowtechcyclist: While we were traveling, we ate breakfast with another couple who were probably a few years younger than I am. When they learned I’d been a professor, they asked me what I thought about cancelling student loans, because their kids had run up debts and paid them off and they’d be angry if other people’s debts were cancelled. I didn’t want to argue, so I just said I didn’t know the details. At the moment, I didn’t feel strongly one way or the other.
It was only afterwards that I was able to articulate what I really felt, which was that I couldn’t see how cancelling someone else’s debt hurt me at all.
mrmoshpotato
@SFAW: I see I wasn’t the only one.
tom
It always seems like Jen Psaki wants to add “you moron” to end of every answer. And she’d be perfectly justified.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Soprano2: You did do the right thing. Personally, I hope someone treats me with as much kindness and compassion when my time comes
kalakal
@Soprano2: My sympathies. You did the best thing for your cat but it’s hard
SFAW
@Soprano2:
So sorry about your beloved kitty, both her passing and the travails leading up to it.
And having that on top of all the other things associated with this week makes me sad; I can’t imagine what you’re going through.
Stay well, and know that we’re sending you our love.
jonas
@Soprano2: It didn’t help that every one of the justices who (will) vote to end Roe sat in front of the SJC with their hands raised in solemn oath and stated that they believed it was settled precedent.
Yeah. Balls and strikes my ass.
P.S. Sorry for your loss!
SFAW
@mrmoshpotato:
Of course not. I mean, if you’re a Certified Old Fart, as I am, and was sentient in 1972, as (I think) I was, and you’re not yet demented (as I hope I’m not), the reference is a trigger.
prostratedragon
@Soprano2: My condolences, and take extra care during this difficult time.
OzarkHillbilly
@Soprano2: A loving peaceful passing is the best any of us can hope for, and you gave one to your Kitty.
mrmoshpotato
@SFAW:
Oh, I totally was not. And I’m not even close to your lawn.
Jt
@Soprano2: Best wishes for you in a dark time for you. Savoring the good memories can help. They sound lucky to have had someone who cared so much.
Take care.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I wouldn’t personally care if Biden cancels student debt, but I don’t think he’s going to do it. That said, if he did, I think we wrongly dismiss how many people will resent it if all debt is cancelled, or even the $50K that is being pushed.
SFAW
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Libtard! Next you’ll be trying to tell us that Obergefell doesn’t make your marriage less … something.
kalakal
I love Jen Psaki. Even so the repeated sloppiness of the ‘Gotcha’ merchants amazes me. They know she’s very. very good at her job and does her homework and yet again and again they don’t bother to do theirs. They throw their “this’ll fix her” gotcha at her and she smacks it straight back in their faces because they don’t even bother to do the most basic “ok, if I were asked this question, how would I answer it?”
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor: “My children suffered so everybody else’s must suffer too.” doesn’t seem like a winning argument.
Chief Oshkosh
@mrmoshpotato:
He was busy mowing a rich Republican’s lawn.
SFAW
@mrmoshpotato:
“A lawn, lawn time ago
I can still remember how you JDs used to make me yell …”
ETA: Before Omnes and the other pettifoggers here get all het up over “JDs”: it used to be the abbreviation (or whatever) for “juvenile delinquents”
lowtechcyclist
@SFAW: Yeppers. “The day the _____ died” immediately gets the “American Pie” earworm going in the brains of all of us 60+ types.
Long, long time ago, I can still remember how I wrote a song about caving to that tune. “The Day the Cave Caved In.” With lyrics like:
We were four spelunkers on a lark
carbide lamps flashing in the dark
But that breakdown nearly found its mark
the day the cave caved in
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Huh? It is the foundational principle of the Republican Party, and they do very well in elections.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Baud: My reaction is affected by my first academic job, which was teaching in a private business college that was theoretically non-profit. The president got a bonus for every “overage” they ran. It was open admission, meaning they admitted anyone with a GED and the money to pay the considerable tuition. The students were mostly first generation college attendees who didn’t know it would be better to go to the local community college. They were overwhelmingly on Pell Grants and loans of various kinds.
If anyone should pay a penalty of some sort there, it wasn’t the students.
That said, I know people will resent it. They picture students running up huge debts to go to fancy schools or even just out of state.
lowtechcyclist
@Soprano2: Thoughts and virtual hugs headed your way. It’s hard to let go, but you did the right thing for your kitty.
narya
@Soprano2: Thanks for sharing with us all. Sending you lovingkindness this week . . .
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
There’s that, but there’s also the fact that straight up debt cancellation is inherently uneven. Obviously, there are people who have paid off or down their loans, and full cancellation would cancel debt without regard to the borrower’s income or ability to pay. And the chunk of change at issue is not nominal.
Obviously any relief or reform will be uneven to some degree, but details matter when it comes to public acceptance. I don’t think there are any easy solutions. But I don’t have a personal stake in the issue, so it’s easy for me to support any relief Biden does provide.
SFAW
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I imagine that, were President Biden somehow able to “rebate” $10K for those students who had already paid off their student debt, there would still be those who would complain.
One would hope that some of the whiners would eventually have the epiphany that forgiving current debt is the first step toward affordable college for all.[At which point, Rethugs would screech about “sociamalism OMFG!!!!!!”]
narya
Despite mostly working for non-profits, I paid off a pretty substantial pile of student loans, especially for grad school (undergrad was a good bit smaller)–but I had relatively good terms and interest rates. I don’t think people realize that the way many loans are structured these days, the borrower ends up paying off multiples of the original principal–if they ever are able to pay it off at all. Anything we do to reduce those burdens are a good thing, and if you want to have a means test of some kind, I’m sure there’s a way to structure that. But DO IT.
gvg
The resentment at cancellation is very real and in your face.
I think if it’s done carefully, it won’t backlash as much. I am thinking lay out “in these conditions” this can be done and make it an ongoing process so future hard luck students can cancel debt. It needs to be predictable.
There used to be more cancel some debt for each year of public service. It benefitted teachers and schools a lot. Budget tightening Republicans have caused that to almost be forgotten.
The department of education has always had some situations where debt got forgiven, but the last decade or so they seem to have stopped actually following policy. My impression is they paperwork it to death and just almost never approve anyone. For instance the defunct schools whose students have debt and no degree…that used to just get approved and Congress wasn’t even involved. It just got handled. After 20 years of payments, that’s enough, is just another one.
It would also help if certain for profit schools got closed down, or weren’t eligible for Federal aid. They always have some congresspeople who defend them due to campaign contributions whose votes are needed for other critical legislation so they have always skated, but they are a problem I’d like to be delt with.
Anyway, specific catagories of student loan debt may be more sympathetic to voters than just forgive student debt. The grumps always picture these as kids who went to fancy schools and got art degrees instead of something practical. Put different faces on this issue to the uniformed.
Sure Lurkalot
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I have brought up previously that the US used to subsidize all manner of debt by allowing credit card and auto loan interest to be itemized deductions. True, it did benefit wealthier folks who could surpass the standard deduction threshold, but it was available for up and comers of relatively low means like myself.
Funny that enormous tax cuts for the ultra rich never present any moral hazard.
JWR
From Tuesday afternoon:
Sh*t’s gettin’ real.
gvg
@narya: The should bring back subsidized loans for graduate students. Having just unsub (interest accruing while in school) is terrible policy. In fact lets propose recalculating the ones that already exist to be what they should have been if grad subs had never been allowed to end. Some people would get refunds!
Baud
@gvg:
They are doing that now to some extent. We had four years of Betsy DeVos that kind of ground the reform process to a halt and reversed it. As always, we end up wasting a lot of time digging out of GOP holes, so things move more slowly than everyone would like.
Betty Cracker
@narya: You make a great point about the terms, which have become much more onerous. Also the lack of alternatives. I graduated with very little debt thanks to Pell Grants and the low cost of tuition when I was in college in the late 1980s. My kid absolutely did not have the same options I had, and the tuition costs had skyrocketed, even when adjusted for inflation.
All that said, I have no idea how debt cancelation in any form will play politically. But I think it’s the right thing to do.
germy
A journalist was killed while doing her job:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m not a lawyer, but from what I’ve read the general consensus is this will be challenged in court, so it might not be as crystal-clear as you and Elizabeth Warren say it is. So maybe it makes sense for the administration to be as careful as possible when drafting whatever decision they make?
as for the “get caught trying!” argument: show me where Biden got any credit for pulling out of Afghanistan
debbie
@Soprano2:
Well, the fact that four of them committed perjury during their confirmation hearings can’t be of much help. //
Baud
This seems to be the most recent information on the Department of Education’s efforts.
narya
@gvg: I’m so old that mine might even have been subsidized! I’m thinking of the way that the Covid supplements were distributed–very basic cutoffs, tied to income from previous year’s return. Are some folks going to get subsidized who maybe shouldn’t? Sure; so what? Every program supports a handful of people who “shouldn’t” get that benefit. And I’d prioritize folks who’ve been screwed (college went out of business, they didn’t get a degree) and folks who work in a non-profit field.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m not sure who would have standing to challenge it, but I bet it would get struck down if the judges they get are right wing.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: I can’t figure that out either, but it would take a while, wouldn’t it, for some court to decide Citizens for Fairness In Student Debt didn’t have standing? and in the meantime, you think a lot of Rose Twitter accounts would be saying “Our Hero Joe tried!”? I am dubious.
debbie
@Soprano2:
?
Brachiator
@SFAW:
Hmmm…
An asteroid blew up the coast
And turned the raptors into toast,
Along with brontosaurus roast…
The day the dinos died.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t know how it would play out in court. I can see the Republican justices issuing a stay of cancellation while the litigation drags on.
I’m half tempted to want Biden to try it just as a social experiment to see if how it affects election turnout. But that’s not realistically in the cards.
lowtechcyclist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
OK, but they’ve had 15 months to work on this. How much time do they need for legal draftsmanship?
I sure give him credit for that, but I’m voting Dem regardless.
A big difference, though, is that basically nobody directly benefited from our pulling out of Afghanistan. Whose votes did we hope to pick up by this? Nobody’s. It just needed to be done.
The exact opposite is true with student loan cancellation. If we want young adults to vote our way, we should do something that makes a difference to them, and this is it. Many of them will be direct beneficiaries, and the rest will know someone who is. There may be 28 people somewhere who would otherwise vote Dem this November, but this changes their minds. That’ll be more than compensated for by higher turnout among young voters.
Gin & Tonic
Having put three kids through college and not being Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, obviously there were loans. Some were paid off by the kids, some by the parents. I made the last payment on my son’s last year. If current debtors have some or all of their debt forgiven, that has no effect on me, and I see no reason to care. Carrying resentment is not a healthy way to go through life.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Try this one on “I could only go to a trade/apprenticeship/two year school to get this shitty job, meanwhile my asshole boss overpaid for a fancy school just so he could wag his dick in my face five times a week while getting paid three times what I get paid. And now my taxes will pay down his debt” The prols are just such unreasonable folks.
lowtechcyclist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Let’s put it this way: what’s the electoral downside of this outcome? If he cancels student loan debt and it gets caught up in the courts, who’s going to vote R or stay home that would have voted D if we do nothing?
Meanwhile, if cancellation gets tied up in the courts, he can keep postponing that debt, just like he’s been doing without any successful challenges, only maybe make it a year or two this time, instead of a few months.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t know. It took Democrats about a hundred years to draft a health care plan that could make it through Congress, and it still faced significant partisan challenges in the courts.
you have a very different experience and opinion, and thus expectations, of the American electorate than I
I hope you’re right and I’m wrong
Another Scott
@lowtechcyclist: As geg6 pointed out in her guest post a few days ago, it’s not simple.
Biden’s Department of Education has extended the pause on payments and interest until August 31:
It’s a complicated problem. Contra Schumer and Warren, there’s only so much that Biden can do to really fix the problem without legislation.
Congress and the Senate will be entering campaign mode soon. It’s hard to see something comprehensive passing before the election. The course of the pandemic and the economy may mean that the pause gets extended another 6 months after September 1, but we know that serious reforms are unlikely if the GQP gains seats and a majority in either house.
That should be plenty of motivation to get people with lots of student loan debt to turn out for Democrats. IMHO.
tl;dr – Turn out for Democrats and enjoy the payment and interest pause, or let the GQP in and be back on the payment treadmill without any prospect for relief.
Cheers,
Scott.
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I don’t get this crab bucket mentality toward students trying to start their lives. I pay debts too but I don’t get pissed off every time someone files for bankruptcy.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe going after ? Twitter votes is as pointless as chasing MAGA dopes? That’s my opinion, and as is frequently pointed out by people who fixate inordinately (IMO) on that cohort, Twitter isn’t ‘real life.” I think the jury is still out on what voters think of Biden ending the Afghanistan War. The withdrawal was (predictably!) chaotic, and that certainly skewed the coverage. But maybe Biden will get credit from regular voters. We don’t know what they’d think of debt cancellation either, really.
Kay
@Baud:
I think there would have been a lot less resentment if the public service loan program hadn’t have been so mismanaged. The income driven payment plans are different, because the first group of those just came up for discharge so the mismanagement was discovered and remedied early.
Income driven repayment isn’t a bad concept. It’s the same idea as a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. I think they should reduce the length of term though. 20 to 25 years is just too long. Get paid what you can, call it a loss, and cut em loose. They have to move on with their lives. We don’t make people carry one poor decision on unsecured debt forever. We just don’t do that in the US. We let them move on. The idea is they pick up, dust themselves off and try again. We want them to.
debbie
What about restructuring loans as interest free and deducting any interest already paid from the original principal amount?
Robin Goodfellow
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
My student loans undergrad and graduate came to about $12,000, granted I worked through college mostly, undergrad tuition was $500, grad was $980. College was affordable back then, not so much now.
Expatchad
@Soprano2: ALas…those of us who are blessed with a love for companion animals are condemned to recurrent periods of mourning. Consolation begins with memories of the joys of those relationships. Condolences. There will be future joys.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: I think that would’ve been a much better strategy, but it seems to lack the emotional appeal of “cancellation!”
jonas
@Baud: I think this is right. Progressives tend to see education as a public good that deserves public subvention and so student loan forgiveness is basically just making up for public support for college that essentially hasn’t been there for the past generation or so. I paid off the last of about $25k in student loans about a decade ago and don’t begrudge someone today getting relief I didn’t. I could also afford it because I had steady work. A lot of other people, however, see a bunch of coddled millennials getting their debts wiped out because they vote reliably Democratic. I don’t make the rules, but that’s the political reality Biden’s facing.
Kay
@EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo):
I think that’s a good comparison.
I feel like the solution for this is right there, but no one will pick it up. Make a new chapter for the bankruptcy code! None of you will even know who’s getting a discharge :)
Baud
@EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo):
That’s how most people think. In fact the premise of this discussion is that student loan borrowers will not turn out to prevent harm to others if they don’t get sufficient debt relief.
Baud
@Kay:
Agree. But that requires Congress.
a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio
@Soprano2: I’m so sorry.
debbie
@Kay:
Bankruptcy courts are already pretty overwhelmed. Isn’t there another way?
Kay
@Baud:
I love the bankruptcy code and courts. It’s like an island of rationality in a world where people like to make moral judgments on money. It’s about the money :)
SFAW
@Brachiator:
Not bad. Thanks!
germy
@germy:
An Al Jazeera journalist was shot in the head Wednesday while covering Israeli raids in the occupied West Bank, the news outlet reported. Shireen Abu Akleh, a U.S. citizen, was pronounced dead at a hospital after the shooting, which the reporter’s colleagues described as a targeted attack by Israeli forces.
“We were going to film the Israeli army operation and suddenly they shot us without asking us to leave or stop filming,” said Akleh’s colleague Ali Samoudi. “The first bullet hit me and the second bullet hit Shireen… there was no Palestinian military resistance at all at the scene,” Samoudi said.
Baud
@Kay:
Bankruptcy courts are wild. Not for the faint of heart.
Hoodie
@Gin & Tonic: Yeah, but resentment is as American as apple pie. This is a potential landmine for Dems unless they find some way of framing it other than simply canceling debt. You’ll have resentment not only from people who paid off their loans, but also from people who did not take out loans and shelled out cash for their kids to go to college. You can count on Fox finding a doctor or lawyer or art history major whose debts get canceled. The best bet might be some sort of partial cancelation based on income and renegotiation of loan terms to make the remaining debt more manageable, but there needs to be some sort of accompanying attempt to get college costs under control. That might include things like conditioning allocation of federal research funds to state universities based on support for undergraduate education, including keeping tuition and fees reasonable.
Kay
@debbie:
Nah, they’re fine for personal bk – Ch 7 and Ch 13. Personal debt is not complicated. Load em up. They’re debt experts. They run like a top. They’ll sort out that pile of debt lickety split. Just literally dump it on them. You have an expert, specialized debt court that runs really well. Use it.
No one will admit this but I suspect some of the resistance comes from higher ed. If we start discharging college loans in bankruptcy there is going to be a heightened risk analysis for college loans, which I think would be good but higher ed might be afraid of because then we have to get into hard questions on who they are putting into loans and what the students are buying.
debbie
@Kay:
I’ve read any number of dockets over the years. They seem filled with shenanigans to me, but I’ve mostly dealt with serial filers.
Princess Leia
@debbie:
I love this idea!
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@Soprano2: Take care and be gentle with yourself. You did right by your kitty.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: Do you still cave? I tried it a couple times long ago and decided I was too claustrophobic. Even if I wasn’t, caving would be too physical challenging for me now. That’s a tough way to recreate.
I may buy a ticket and tour Grand Caverns this summer though. It’s not far and and it would be a nice break during a hot spell. People used to visit those big Shenandoah Valley caves a lot before air conditioning became common, but I don’t have air conditioning and am not a movie fan, so I’d appreciate a spacious cave.
Cameron
@Dorothy A. Winsor: It’s the general, seething resentment that somewhere, somebody got something that I didn’t! A resentment that one would think should fade as a person matures, but, unfortunately, many of us don’t mature. I include myself in that category, often self-describing as an alcoholic Peter Pan who stopped growing up about the age of sixteen.
germy
I remember a stand up comedian in the 1970s saying he’d majored in Philosophy with a minor in Communications.
His frustrated father’s response: “So you can wonder out loud??”
Kay
@debbie:
Well, they can’t file that much. They have to wait 8 years between. Used to be 7, which is from the BIBLE, so another area of GOP hypocrisy!
SFAW
@Geminid:
To me, you cavers are borderline-nuts. But that’s because I’m fairly claustrophobic. To give you an idea: there’s a scene in “Die Trying” (one of the Jack Reacher novels) where Reacher has to escape a cave area by crawling through a very constricted passage in the rock. VERY constricted, to the point where he almost gets stuck because he’s too well-built. Just reading that gave me the weeblies.
Immanentize
Just a personal note to add to the files:
American Pie was the first album I ever bought — it exists in my mind like an out of body experience: I can see myself walking down the stairs to the basement of our split level where the record player was. It was the winter of 1971 (maybe early ’72?), and I am still wearing my green parka and my blue (and other colors) stocking cap….
SiubhanDuinne
@SFAW:
You are incredibly kind, but I’m embarrassed to say I don’t recognise the source material, so can’t do anything with it. But thank you for the lovely compliment!
Baud
@SFAW:
I’m not claustrophobic as a general matter (small elevators and old timey phone booths are fine with me), but getting stuck in a tight space like that is a phobia. (I remember that Reacher novel – that scene was well written).
debbie
@Kay:
Seriously? I’ve seen files where they refiled practically every year. Sometimes back and forth between 7 and 13, but not always. I wonder if the Court wasn’t paying enough attention. I will say subsequent cases would be dismissed for whatever reason, but that wouldn’t stop them from refiling. It was almost a sure thing they were representing themselves by that time.
Ken
That may be why they show up in “news of the weird” features relatively often. Generally it’s a bankruptcy judge being unamused by an attempt to hide assets by transferring them to, oh, a third cousin in another state. Or the dog
I would think bankruptcy lawyers all have a canned speech they give to prospective clients, somewhat like Kyle Reese’s Terminator speech. “The court does not feel pity, or remorse. And it absolutely will not stop until it has analyzed every financial transaction you made for the last ten years.”
Redshift
@Baud:
I honestly think we shouldn’t care about how many people resent it, we should only care about whether it changes how/whether they vote. Like the issues of abortion and guns, where way more people agree with us, but the people who agree with them are way more likely to decide to vote based on that issue.
I have a hard time seeing “I resent that someone else got too much help/ got help I missed out on” moving the needle, however loud people might be about it.
Another Scott
@Cameron: I don’t think noisy “fears of resentment” should stand in the way of good policy. We know that the RWNJ noise machine can gin-up opposition to anything.
And they powered-on through in the face of resentment. We can do that too.
PubMedCentral:
It was cynical politics on Bush’s part, trying to take credit for a Democratic policy, but making a mess of it (as usual), and there were political battles about it. But the policy and benefits stayed and has been tweaked over time (and could be tweaked more with more Democrats in office…) and made better.
Public policy should have robust debate. We should not fear it, even if the messaging will be distorted and hurtful.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
Outrageous
Baud
@Redshift:
I have no clue how any action will affect turn out. As a general matter, I am equally skeptical of the claim that debt cancellation will result in higher levels of youth turnout. Nothing against the youngs — I would feel the same way if the claim were that any other group of voters will reward actions that they benefit from by turning out in higher numbers.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: My wife’s experience wasn’t bad at all, but hers was fairly simple.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, simple ones are usually a nothing burger. But if something is contested, it can get crazy quick.
Ken
It’s a sad world, or perhaps a sad reflection on where my mind is lately, but my first thought was that this was the Maine police searching for chalk.
Dupe1970
@kalakal:
A good lawyer knows the answer to the question they are asking. A good journalist should as well.
SFAW
@SiubhanDuinne:
“American Pie” by Don McLean, released in (I think) 1972. But considering you’re spelling “recognise” the way those bleedin’ Brits do, I’m not surprised you don’t recognize the song.
germy
@Ken:
Collins to the police: “Hurry, before it rains!!”
Baud
@Ken: Haha. Me too.
lowtechcyclist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t know. It took Democrats about a hundred years to draft a health care plan that could make it through Congress, and it still faced significant partisan challenges in the courts.
Yeah, but health insurance is freakin’ complicated, as I’m sure David Anderson’s posts have conveyed. There’s just a ton of moving parts. And the ACA, being legislation with the filibuster in full effect, had to please every last one of 60 Democratic Senators. And they still got that puppy done in under a year.
@Another Scott:
You say that, but all you show is the complications they were able to address without legislation. I’m sorry I missed geg6’s post – do you remember what day it was, so I don’t have to do too much digging?
@debbie:
Actually, this sounds like a great idea to me. I guess the only question is, can that be done by executive action? (Can’t see a reason why not, but I certainly don’t know for sure.)
Cameron
@Another Scott: I totally agree with you. If doing the right thing pisses somebody off, that’s their problem, not yours. It’s pretty hard to think of any government initiative that isn’t resented by someone or someones. If avoiding an angry reaction is a cornerstone of public policy, we wouldn’t have a government at all. Maybe that’s a good thing, but I’d rather not find out.
Baud
@Cameron:
Well there’s a limit. You can’t just piss off everybody on the grounds that your policy is really awesome, or soon you won’t be in a position to make policy at all. I have no idea where that line is with respect to student loans, but I’m not going to be cavalier about it.
lowtechcyclist
@Ken:
Wastin’ away here in old Bangorville,
lookin’ for my lost package of chalk
Geminid
@Hoodie: One interesting proposal from some Congressional Democrats is to issue a general credit people could either apply towards student debt or towards post-secondary education. The proposed $10,000 figure might be too low, at least for some debtors, but I like the principle for political as well as equity reasons.
Whatever the dollar amount, this could be one component of a broader program. Some other pieces might include modifying existing federal loan forgivenes programs and federal funding of free community college. I don’t think the latter would get past this Congress, but it might be a good issue to campaign on and maybe win the seats to pass it, if not this November then in 2024.
While the topic here is issues related to education after high school, there is a very important initiative pertinent to the “front end” of public schooling. That is Universal Pre-K, which could make a big difference for disadvantaged children during school and for life, and end end up benefiting all of us. I mention this not as a spending alternative to any of the college related issues discussed here. But I think it’s an important part of our entire legislative program. Knowledgeble observers say Universal Pre-K can be a game changer, and I believe them
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: I’ve been thru a couple passages where one has to exhale in order to move forward… 1 inch at a time. It wasn’t bad for me, but then I knew that the passage opened up on the other side of the squeeze. The first guy thru it, didn’t have the benefit of that knowledge.
The one time I got really stuck, as in “I need help” stuck, sucked donkey D. 4 hours with my arms above my head and no way to change position. Painful, isn’t quite the right word to describe that torture.
Doug R
@lowtechcyclist:
Biden’s already cancelled a fair bit.
More democrats in Congress would codify it.
Redshift
@Baud:
The counter argument is that every complication and condition to make sure it only goes to the deserving (including handling it through bankruptcy) adds to the burden on people of less means to prove they’re deserving, making them less likely to benefit (and adds cost.) The proposal to cancel the first $50K may be the best way to limit it without undermining it by adding those burdens.
Also keep in mind that conservatives love when we have programs that are income-restricted, because it turns them into welfare programs that are way less popular than public goods. Liberals are the only ones who sincerely care about higher income people benefiting.
Baud
@Redshift: Not necessarily. If means tested, the criteria could be pretty simple. The Covid relief payments were means tested on the basis of income tax returns.
In any event, debt cancellation cannot be a public good because only certain people can benefit from it, no matter whether it’s means tested or not.
Another Scott
@lowtechcyclist: Here ya go – Studen Loans – An Explainer from geg6 (from May 6).
HTH!
Cheers,
Scott.
Ohio Mom
After reading geg6’s post the other day I on student loans, I realized that any opinion I could possibly have on this subject would be embrassing naive. I just don’t have the background in things like finance or bankruptcy law to imagine the ways loan forgiveness could be structured.
That said, I am pretty sure that whatever is put in place will backfire. Lots of people have loans that will not be forgiven, for example, graduate school loans and private loans. They’ll probably be as resentful as a lot of the people who already paid off their loans are. Because most people understand finance and bankruptcy law as little as I do.
I’m beginning to think this whole effort could be used as a case study in how my beloved Democractic Party trips over itself.
Another example would be the otherwise excellent video ad in the post. The last tag line, “Republicans will lower your income” is in an awful typeface. Italics are harder to read, the font is too small and the page is not visible enough to give slow readers enough time. Sigh.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: In my wife’s case, the bank actually forced her into it by refusing a purchase of the house that was $2500 below the loan amount. (she had already put every excess penny she had into trying to keep up on the payments) At that point the development was selling brand new houses for $5,000 less than her loan amount.
We’d been together only a few months at that point, but I told her that bank deserved to lose money on the deal. The judge agreed.
Ken
@OzarkHillbilly: I’ll just be over here in the corner quietly screaming. I have trouble enough with cave tours, with concrete walks and handrails and lights.
Part of it is that I think about things like “oh look, that giant debris pile is from part of the cave collapsing….”
germy
This looks interesting and unsettling:
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
I haven’t been in a wild cave since maybe 1987, sad to say. I’ve stayed in good shape, so there’s no physical reason I couldn’t do it now.
But it was something I did with a group of friends, and some are scattered here and there, and others have been hit harder by age than I have been.
Back in my younger days, I went on some D.C. Grotto trips, but after a few trips I realized that it just wasn’t as much fun, caving with a bunch of people I didn’t know at all well, who knew each other pretty well. So I’d really want to go caving with people I already know, and I don’t know anyone who goes caving anymore. And going solo is right out: if shit happens to you underground, there’s no way to call for help.
I’ve only been in tourist caves a couple of times, but I’ve enjoyed the experience both times. I’ve been in Luray Caverns, and it’s worth the visit. (The other time was in one of the Black Hills caves – Wind Cave or Jewel Cave, I can’t remember which. A bit out of range for a day trip for you!)
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Well, on the plus side, at least you didn’t have James Franco there to “help” you.
OzarkHillbilly
Heh. It ain’t for everyone.
Speaking of which, did I ever tell you about the time a Buick sized rock tried to kill me and 2 other guys?
Redshift
@Geminid:
I like that a lot. Avoid the attack that it’s a benefit just for college types by broadening it beyond past debt to all types of education, not by restricting it by income.
oldgold
@Cameron:
That seems a bit harsh to me.
My spouse and I paid for 20 years of higher education for our children. A number of years all three were in school at the same time. In those years we did not endure hardship, but we did make sacrifices.
Of course, we were fortunate to be able to do so. Others, similarly situated, chose not to pay for the higher education of their children. Rather, their children borrowed the money necessary to finance their higher education. Now, today, upon learning these children may have their debt forgiven, if I wince a bit and gripe to my spouse at breakfast over it, I do not consider it a sign of immaturity.
OzarkHillbilly
@lowtechcyclist: A caving buddy of mine had a daughter who said this: “Caving. It’s like fun, only different.”
Truer words.
Kay
@debbie:
I’d be really suprised if they were filing a Ch 7 every year. It just isn’t something that would be overlooked.
Here’s the code section:
Chapter 7 to another Chapter 7 bankruptcy
8 years
Chapter 7 now filing for Chapter 13 bankruptcy
4 years
Chapter 13 now filing for Chapter 7 bankruptcy
6 years (or payment in full on Chapter 13 repayment plan)
Chapter 13 to another Chapter 13 bankruptcy
2 years
But understand that a Chapter 13 is a repayment plan. It’s not a debt discharge. The discharge is the 7.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: I don’t get the reference.
My youngest had gone off hiking with a buddy while I was pushing this cave. I had to wait for him to return because he was the only one small enough to reach my feet and loop a rope around them so somebody could pull while I wiggled my way backwards.
ian
@gvg:
Link
May 4th 2022
Kay
@debbie:
I think you should consider both sides of the loan, too. It’s fine to ask why people borrow more than they should, but it’s also fine to ask why lenders allow, encourage, pitch, send them 500 solicitations for- too. One of the things bankruptcy does it is dings the lender for making a bad loan. They need that discipline. As we know. Of course that have elaborate risk models which tell them just how far they can go and still make tons on interest, even with % of bad debt. But there’s two sides to a loan. Ask the debtor, but also ask the lender.
It would change student loans. It would create more risk analysis. They’re easier to get because the debt is guaranteed. It can’t be discharged. If they’re dischargable that changes. I don’t think higher ed wants that to change.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly: There was a film starring Franco (127 Hours), where he played a climber (thought he might have been a caver, but Teh Googly tells me otherwise) who ended up cutting off his arm in order to escape an “I’m stuck” situation with no one around to help.As it turns out (thanks, Wikipedia!), he wasn’t caving, he was climbing or something, and an immovable boulder trapped his arm. The movie was based on a true story, apparently.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
The would have freaked me right TF out.
Geminid
@Redshift: I think this and free community college would enjoy broad based support. That’s not to exclude other forms of debt relief (or debt avoidance in the case of free community college), just to say that the political calculus is easier.
Kay
@debbie:
If we didn’t have bankrupcy it would be an absolute windfall for unsecured lenders. Lend everyone 20k at 26% and just charge them forever. Garnish, whatever. Forever. They’d go completely fucking insane with greed.
So if they lend too much to the wrong debtor they have to eat it. That’s good.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Ah, yeah I remember reading about the incident but never saw the movie. It sounded rather boring. I mean, 127 hours where nothing really happens, followed by a ten minute amputation.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: And that’s why you aren’t a caver. Even if one has never been stuck (the vast majority of cavers) we all know somebody who has and are at least acquainted with the idea. It’s the reason why the #1 rule of caving is that anyone at any time can back out of a trip for any reason, no matter how deep in a cave a team is. If somebody gets the heebie jeebies and needs to stop, we stop. End of story.
narya
@OzarkHillbilly: I realize I’m jumping to a lot of conclusions based on nothing more than reading your comments here on this site, so I might be way off base. But it seems as though your practicality (for lack of a better word) and your caving are deeply intertwined, as I would imagine they must be, and I wonder if you have a sense of whether/how your approach to the world in general has influenced/has been influenced by your caving.
Geminid
@OzarkHillbilly: Billy Wilder made a movie about an explorer trapped in a collapsed cliff dwelling and the efforts to save him. Ace in the Hole (1951) features an unscrupulous reporter (Kirk Douglas) who exploits the emergency. The movie flopped, maybe because of the cynical plotline, but more probably because audiences found the subject very uncomfortable.
OzarkHillbilly
@narya: Heh, I first read this as “But it seems as though your practicality (or lack of….)
I have no idea, never really thought about it. I do know I have always had an innate desire to see what’s around the bend, whether it be underground, hiking thru the woods, crossing a desert, hiking in the mountains, or just walking in an unfamiliar town. I like finding the unexpected. It’s what keeps life interesting.
OzarkHillbilly
@Geminid: Shades of Floyd Collins.
Obvious Russian Troll
@Soprano2: I’m so sorry to hear this. It’s been about a decade since I lost my brother and I still feel it.
Sure Lurkalot
@Ohio Mom: IMHO, the Reagan, Bush and Trump tax cuts did more to damage this country than anything. Any relief on student loan debt will chalk up winners and losers but it will benefit the country in general by freeing up capital to go into housing, small business, cars, etc. The Republican tax cuts didn’t stimulate the economy as much as create billionaires who don’t and don’t want to pay anything.
NotMax
Another notch in the belt of (increasingly wobbly) solar circuits as of today.
;)
Baud
@NotMax: Happy birthday!
trnc
In fact, it helps us all because people with enormous debt need more government help.
I haven’t been keeping up with this as much as I should. Is there a proposal to cancel some, but not all, debt? I think it would be reasonable to have a formula that gets people out from under crushing debt but still requires some repayment.
Sure Lurkalot
@NotMax: Happy birthday! And be happy your anniversary is in burgeoning spring and not the dead cold of winter (admittedly, not an issue in your neck of the woods).
Dorothy A. Winsor
@NotMax: Every notch is a triumph
SpaceUnit
I read the title of this post and for a moment got wildly excited.
Thought it might be some sort of political metaphor.
Geminid
@NotMax: Happy Birthday!
I will celebrate your birthday by cooking up the Spam, canned pineapple and brown sugar I bought on Lei Day but never got around to fixing. Sorry you’ll miss it!
FelonyGovt
@gvg: Many for-profit “learn a profession” colleges are a disgrace. Years ago I arbitrated a case involving on of those schools. The student in question, a young man with a family, had already paid something like $20K for an ultrasound tech degree that turned out to be worthless since the school wasn’t accredited (which of course they hadn’t told him) . He would have been much better off going to a local community college. I awarded him his tuition back.
CaseyL
@NotMax: Happy Latest Solar Orbit day!
(I do like that. Maybe I’ll use it from now on.)
Kropacetic
Right here. I credit Biden for that. A+ Showstopper!!! More of this please. I’ll vote for Biden every four years for the rest of one of our lives.
NotMax
@Dorothy A. Winsor
Mark de Triomphe.
;)
Ruckus ??
@Soprano2:
Sorry about your kitty. I had to give up my rescue cocker back in 2012 because I was living at someone else’s house because of the recession that had broken me. It was all I could do to keep from sobbing as he was driven away. He was my buddy. That old fart was a pain in my ass as well but mostly he was always there.
This about the supreme court, how can we have confidence in the court when they have an agenda and it isn’t to review cases and make the best decision for the country but to be political and pre make political decisions that 75% of the country disagrees with over a 50 yr settled ruling ? If anything they should be shot into the sun just for being anything but actual judges. They are attesting to the fact that they are only thinking politically and against the majority. That is horrible, improper judgement.
Kelly
Two summers ago a rotten old snag 70 feet tall, 2 feet in diameter fell on a windless, beautiful August day. Missed me by 2 feet.
trollhattan
@lowtechcyclist: You’d think that America not being at war the first time in twenty years would be an incentive–“Thanks, Joe!”–but I’m guessing “Afwhatistan?” is indicative of how much traction that thought gets among folks of the typical age of our troops.
Had to explain to mine that her country was for the first time in her life, not at war. Kids.
gvg
@Kay: Why should they care? It’s not higher ed making the loans or losing if they are discharged. Its the government for Federal aid.
Private loans aren’t guaranteed so they already get the lenders, but that still isn’t the schools.
Schools are required to educate the students about finances AND tell the students what the job prospects are and what the school default rates are for the government loans. My University has a really low default rate. Some private profit schools are really bad, but it doesn’t seem to deter the students. I am not sure why but suspect they don’t make it clear to students. Maybe that needs to be enforced better. More inspectors and close some bad schools.
debbie
@Kay:
Totally agree on lender irresponsibility. Also filers’ lack of understanding of all the consequences.
I wish I’d known about the year limits you’ve posted but that just isn’t what I saw in the records. I’m not working there anymore, or I’d ask the bankruptcy department why there are so many cases so close together.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
Knowing what was about to happen was the worst part of that movie. I needed a number of breaks.
trollhattan
@Kelly: Same thing happened to my buddy and I in the middle of the night in the Lassen Park backcountry. Two feet from where it fell was the tent, although I’m sure it would have protected us. One of the loudest noises I’ve ever heard.
Carpenter ants were the true culprit.
debbie
@NotMax:
Happy Day to you!
PJ
@jonas:
@Baud: I think the likelihood that someone otherwise inclined will not vote Democratic because they didn’t get student loan relief is close to nil, and that someone who would not be inclined to vote Democratic will decide to because they did get student loan relief is in fact zero. No people otherwise not inclined to vote at all are suddenly going to show up at polls either because they did or didn’t get student loan relief in order to reward or punish Democrats.
Republicans have single issue voters who will turn out for them because they want to protect or advance their bugaboo (anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-racism, whatever). Many of them do look at politics as simply rewarding or punishing certain groups, and, in turn, the electorate rewarding or punishing parties. Democrats do not.
That doesn’t mean that Democrats shouldn’t pursue student loan relief in some form. Kay’s idea of restoring bankruptcy as an option is a good one. Like legalizing marijuana, or withdrawing from Afghanistan, I don’t think it’s going to make any difference at the polls. And whatever Democrats decide to do, Republicans and the press will surely make hay about how elitist it is and how it just rewards irresponsibility. Which is nothing new, just more ammunition.
debbie
@Kelly:
It never occurred to me that something like this could happen.
Ruckus ??
@kalakal:
They believe they have a different job than you (and I) think they do. I’d bet their bosses think that as well.
Their bosses think their job is to question everything. Especially everything their bosses don’t like. And just because they are crappy at their job doesn’t change that.
A dramatic percentage of jobs are thought of from a political angle these days, who does this help, who does this hurt. And a lot of conservatives think that they are in charge (or should be) of your life, my life, all lives. They don’t like change, they think change is evil. They think that they can stop one of the main things that is life, change. Can you imagine living 200 yrs ago? In a country with slavery, hunger, leaches for medical care, people dying from things that people now live with for decades with minimal suffering. And that’s the men. Think about what a woman’s life would be like, or children’s lives, education. That’s what conservatives want to go backwards to, everyone but them living in a wayback machine because they are assholes. Or at least have their heads up their own.
Kelly
@trollhattan: I was in my kayak. Drifting through some smooth water. The snag shattered on impact and covered me in tiny pieces of rotten wood, lichen and moss. Mrs. Kelly was watching in horror. Shouted a warning but it happened to fast to do any good.
Kelly
@debbie: I saw a landslide. It was a spot where the road had slipped a little bit to a lot every winter for decades. The county got some of the 2008 stimulus money to do a better fix. The road had just reopened. I stopped at the up edge of the work to look it over. I was thinking they need to do more erosion control look at all the mud running down the ditch into the river. About a 100′ x 100′ x 10′ section of slope above the road liquified and buried the road in 20′ of dirt, boulders and trees. Took maybe 10 seconds. New roadbed held up nicely. I had to backtrack to get home.
Kropacetic
Surely you’re talking about Trump’s overwhelming electoral victory of negative 3 million votes.
Feathers
Turning higher ed into an aspirational luxury good turns out to have been a very bad idea. Loans severed college cost from parental ability to pay and college costs went through the roof. US News rankings that could be gamed through spending money didn’t help. Any path to real loan relief is going to have to include a reckoning with higher ed’s very real problems. And that will just play into right wing propaganda, so I don’t know that we’ll be able to do it.
First step is some sort of ability to write off a certain amount of federal loans on your taxes each year. Another good program would be for people who have paid more than their loan amounts. The government can take over these loans, lenders take a haircut, loans marked as paid off.
Dems need to talk about how Republicans won’t vote on anything, but the Green Laternism is strong.
Captain C
@kalakal:
Or if they do they come up with, “Well, I’d be all, ‘herp-dy derp-dy I dunno I guess your[sic] right you genius handsome reporter'” and don’t give it another thought until it runs smack up against the reality of a prepared Jennifer Psaki.
trollhattan
@Kelly: Yeesh. Nature has many ways of telling us “you puny.”
Soprano2
@EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo): I think it’s because they by and large don’t like the people who would get help; if you could help the blue collar white MAGA’s they’d think that was different.
Soprano2
Thanks for the condolences, everyone.
lowtechcyclist
@Another Scott: Thanks!
Paul in KY
@Soprano2: My old kitteh passed away last year. He was 18 and was in about that shape. He just expired one night. In hindsight, I wish I had taken him in for the shot. I hope if we ever meet up again I can apologize to him.
You did the last best thing for your beloved.
Ruckus ??
@Sure Lurkalot:
Funny that enormous tax cuts for the ultra rich never present any moral hazard.
I’m not laughing.
Besides don’t you know that money has no morals?
OK neither do most of the very wealthy. I think they paid to have them all turned off.
Paul in KY
@Baud: The policy has to be accompanied by lots of good advertising. This is the kind of progress you get when you elect Democrats! More to come, etc. etc.
I know you know that…
Paul in KY
@OzarkHillbilly: Did the spelunker’s tour at Mammoth Cave back when I was 16. Didn’t realize the water would be so cold! Had a good time, though.
dave319
@lowtechcyclist: Machines are dirty smelly and too loud. Politics are icky. Machine politics are a anachronism that’s outlived it’s usefulness for those of us not in the Working Class. Like unions.
SiubhanDuinne
@SFAW:
I know “American Pie.” Just not those words (the one I know goes “Pie, pie, Miss American Pie, Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry…”).
Because I worked for the Canadian Consulate for so long, I’ve always had my keyboards default to Canadian/British spelling. So even if I type “recognize,” it will change automatically to “recognise.” Same with “center/centre,” “color/colour,” etc.