Not gonna lie, I could not watch the hearings live because I knew it would sicken me. So I watched it in bits and pieces, and am more appalled than I thought I would be. It makes me sick that even with all this presented, half the country won’t even flinch, and 1/3 of the country probably is only upset that it failed.
What was the most surprising part for you?
Friday Morning Open Thread: Must-See TV
zhena gogolia
Liz Cheney is a powerful public speaker. Yes, I know, Cheney, etc., etc., etc., but credit where credit is due. Her incisiveness and calm were gripping. Telling the truth can be very powerful.
the pollyanna from hell
I was surprised that every minute I watched was of value to me.
O. Felix Culpa
@zhena gogolia: Agreed. I know that her other political views and votes are heinous, but, damn, is she good.
West of the Rockies
I am surprised that Kushner is sooo without any self-insight or filters. He has no idea at all how evil, vile, wimpy, and pissy he appears to anyone not named Tad, Chad, Buffy, Courtney, or Squee.
Aziz, light!~
I don’t think it will move the needle. America is broken.
I must concur with what Slava Malamud tweeted last night:
Renie
When the documentary maker was talking about the Proud Boys – about 300 of them – already marching toward the Capitol before trump even began speaking. Then they went around the building scoping it out. Also showing footage of the Proud Boys’ leader and Oath Keepers’ leaders talking with each other in the parking garage the night before. I never knew this before. Proof it was planned in advance; now we need to know who funded it.
O. Felix Culpa
@Aziz, light!~:
With all due respect to you and Mr. Malamud (whom I follow), your predictions have a non-zero probability, but we don’t know the November outcome just yet.
zhena gogolia
@Aziz, light!~: Fuck Slava Malamud.
Чтоб он пошел на хуй.
AndyG
I’m not sure I would call it surprising, but certainly dread-inducing: these hearings will make it clear that Trump committed multiple crimes. So what then? Will the Justice Department take the necessary steps – unprecedented steps against unprecedented corruption – and file criminal charges? And if they do, would a jury convict Trump? The fact that the outcome to these questions is in doubt is what fills me with dread.
zhena gogolia
That’s the spirit that made Russia what she is today!!!
Joy in FL
This wasn’t that surprising, but I thought Mr. Quested might have been pressured to be a witness and to let his film footage be a part of the committee’s evidence. I did not sense that he felt a lot of motivation to help preserve a democracy and its Constitution. I wonder what the backstory is on how his filming came to be known and used as evidence. I am not casting doubt on his integrity, just wondering about how he got involved. It seems to me that involvement will have affected his life and his safety for long time for come.
It may be that everyone but me knows how it was discovered that he had such footage that would be essential evidence, but I have not noticed such information. Update: in comment 12, TaMara said that in his testimony he said that he brought it to the authorities. Thanks, TaMara.
I was happily surprised at how explicitly 45* was cited as responsible for the insurrection. And I found Liz Cheney’s words and demeanor powerful. As several people observed last night, she exercised the Cheney power of utter and ruthless conviction, but in this case, for the Good.
Elizabelle
@Aziz, light!~: I hope you are wrong.
Why don’t we all just stick our heads in the oven. Today.
TaMara
Oh, good, I see once again everyone has tossed in the towel…
That’s great news for Democracy.
TaMara
@Joy in FL: In his testimony, unless I’m mistaken he said he brought it to authorities.
Baud
@TaMara:
Are they tossing in the towel, or deliberately handing the trophy to the other team?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Listening to William Cohen on MSNBC wax would-be eloquently about how no one who supports trump should use the title “Honorable”. I wonder if he feels that way about his protégée The Honorable Susan “I think the President has learned his lesson” Collins. I wish someone would ask him.
Joy in FL
@TaMara: Oh, thank you. I must have been in the kitchen when that happened.
Cervantes
I think there can be some benefit at the margins at least. It’s going to force the non-Faux News corporate media to be more forthright, it may embolden some people who have been hanging out in Ohio diners and biting their tongues to speak up, and best of all it is driving Orange Julius into raving fits. I’m not saying the dam will burst but it’s not nothing.
Scout211
My biggest surprise was that last night and this morning, the MSM was not at all dismissive of the hearings. The news stories were accurate and pointed out the facts without the usual both-siderism for the most part.*
As for the facts presented, the unnamed Republican Representatives asking for pardons really surprised me.
*I don’t watch live news broadcasts on cable or broadcast networks, so YMMV. I read news stories on the news websites only. And of course, I don’t watch the right wing media.
RaflW
This guy seems to be a photog for an indie paper. His observation, and my response. I really wish TV hosts would have the guts to do this!
Wag
The film footage was remarkable. Well shot, well edited, and utterly damning. Especially the footage of the attack on the Officer which was interspersed through her testimony describing the attack on her.
Ohio Mom
@TaMara: Listening to that filmmaker announce he was there under subpoena, I suspect he gave his work to the authorities because it was either that, or wait until they contacted him. He may be thinking that this is the end of his career as a documentarian of the far right.
Spanky
@Elizabelle:
Because it’s electric?
Starfish
@Joy in FL: I think that is what made his testimony so powerful. The indifference to American political bullshit made it so, “Hey, he is not on any side of this. This dude was just there.”
Will participating in this way give him more footage and possibly a larger audience for his film if/when it is done?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: her arrogance (from her father) and anger (from her mother) do give her a certain presence
(No, I don’t know any of them, but the parents have been public figures for thirty-ish years. Anybody else remember Lynn’s turn as a Crossfire host? I remember a snarl-fest between her and Alec Baldwin)
TaMara
@Joy in FL: Here’s a quote, so I’m a little more secure that is indeed what I heard him say
Starfish
@Baud: We only do participation trophies, here.
TriassicSands
Hey, don’t forget Karen!
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sorry, I’m no fan of the Cheneys, but she did not come across as arrogant last night.
zhena gogolia
We are in an existential struggle. Liz Cheney is doing the right thing. Slava Malamud and his ilk are not. I know who I’m with.
Ohio Mom
I wouldn’t say I was surprised but I was tickled that the evening was led by two people who weren’t older white men. (Though maybe for some people, that helps delegitimize this effort.)
Scuffletuffle
@RaflW: Or follow up with, “why not, don’t you think its important to understand what took place?”
West of the Rockies
@Spanky:
Electrics still do the job… it just takes longer (45 minutes at 350° should do it).
Dangerman
@West of the Rockies: Nah, Buffy, Courtney, and Squeegee think he’s a dick, too.
Baud
@Spanky:
But is it self driving?
James E Powell
@TaMara:
Everyone?
bbleh
I was materially surprised by: (1) the fact that they blamed Trump personally early and often (and reportedly intend to continue), (2) Liz Cheney’s methodical and devastating Law-And-Order prosecution, and (3) the pacing of the event — the first hour-plus flew by so fast I didn’t even notice it.
It was masterful, as evidenced by the fact that there was IMO only one (brief) slow part and it was noticeable for that. Overall MUCH better than anticipated. That itself is surprising.
Joy in FL
@Starfish: I think Mr. Quested’s life has changed because of his public involvement. I really hope he is safe and able to have his own life and profession after being helpful (willing and/or subpoenaed). He did the right thing. I think you are right about his indifference.
John Cole
@TaMara: I’m not throwing in the towel, just livid at the brainwashed fuckers.
Aziz, light!~
@O. Felix Culpa: Voting in November will be driven by the price of gasoline.
RaflW
@Spanky: Mood lightener: It’s electric!
Elizabelle
@Aziz, light!~:
Giving you a time out, little ray of sunshine. Pie pie pie.
DFH
Most surprising to me was that I was riveted, it was impressive, I was so afraid they would blow this. I don’t think so now. I heard much of the Watergate hearings on radio as I drove back and forth to school, and we didn’t have a TV all the time anyway. The use of so much video was expected, it’s 2022. We are a TV/screen nation. And it isn’t 1974. I was afraid that there wasn’t a Sam Ervin, but really, Bennie Thompson and Liz C. made impressive presentations through the spoken word. They brought the gravitas, and that effort was enhanced by the absence of a fucking Gym Jordan interrupting everyone. The other seven members of the Committee didn’t speak! There was a flow that helped keep attention, and I hope I’m not alone in paying attention. My real hope is that so fucking many people on the fence watched at least part of it, read about reactions this morning, watched more video, learned something new…that the momentum isn’t lost.
I’m hopeful.
Scout211
Mr. Scout, who is a “normie” Democrat, was impressed with Liz Cheney. He said her opening statement should be better received than if the same opening statement was delivered by Adam Schiff. I agreed with him on that, but I added that I do think that Schiff was responsible for writing much (if not all) of that opening statement.
dlw32
@O. Felix Culpa: I won’t mind at all if Cheney (or Pence) are seen as heroes if it makes it clear to the vast majority who the villain is…
Ken
Oh lord, they’re not re-making the “Scooby-Doo Mysteries” again?
trollhattan
@zhena gogolia: @O. Felix Culpa:
Do not EVER want Liz Cheney pissed at me. She has a pitbull’s locking jaw and a long memory.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: Agreed. I know Cheney and I wouldn’t see eye to eye on basically anything, but in this instance, she is on the right side. She’s putting country over party, and doing it while knowing her party will continue to rake her over the coals for it.
piratedan
its only the morning after…. there are going to be ripple effects from this boulder dropped in the lake….
based on what was presented:
we’re going to see just how the WH was networked in with fascist/christianist militias
which members of Congress assisted in the plan
who helped coordinate what took place
how this was coordinated with the Republican propaganda networks
how this was supported by fascists at the local/state level
this is only the morning after, more will come and now we have more than a few days for this to be disseminated out on social media networks as people begin to murmur about it.
The most telling admission imho is that it was Trump’s plan, with Trump’s people and why would TFG do anything to stop the unfolding of his plan…. that cuts right the fuck thru 18 months of Fox News and GOP twitter lying about who was involved and all of that bullshit about FBI plants and Antifa and crisis actors. All that strategy is now essentially shitcanned courtesy of day one.
bbleh
@Aziz, light!~: @O. Felix Culpa: @zhena gogolia: @Elizabelle: @Joy in FL: @James E Powell: @John Cole: I’ll respectfully dissent in part from Malamud. Certainly it won’t change the minds of the brainwashed — they’re by definition brainwashed — but they are a distinct minority, somewhere around the Crazification Factor, a fraction of revanchist authoritarians that exists in every industrialized society. And it probably won’t change any minds among the politically informed, eg present company. But it MAY well change some minds among the politically LESS informed: the people who barely make up their minds whether to vote before the end of October.
It may have an effect — a significant effect — for the same reason that political advertising has an effect. For a lot of people, that’s a lot of what they know. And that can move them significantly.
They are the target audience — especially nonvoting Dems who might be moved to vote, or voting Republicans who might be so disgusted that they sit it out. And I do not agree at all that this will surely not have any effect on election results.
Betty Cracker
Most surprising: several times Chairman Thompson’s accent reminded me of my late granddaddy, who was also a Mississippian. Didn’t see that coming!
Was also kinda surprised Princess Complicity underbussed Tangerine Baal. It probably took multiple hours of questioning to produce that snippet, but it was worth it.
Cheney, for all her indelible Cheneyness, was magnificent. I won’t question her motives on this issue. Ever. She did the right thing. Full stop.
O. Felix Culpa
@Aziz, light!~:
Perhaps you’re right on that score, perhaps not. That said, none of us know what gas prices will be five months from now. A lot can happen in the price and political landscape between now and November. Plus, we have the option of doing things that might affect the outcome.
CaseyL
The thing about Liz Cheney that gets to me is this: she is a lion on the Committee, no question, and effective, no question.
But.
She also voted with the GQP against bills protecting the right to vote and have one’s vote counted. She doesn’t actually support free and fair elections.
Which leafs me to wonder if her anger is all about the methodology of Trump’s crinal conspiracy, and the beneficiary (ie, Trump), and not about the ultimate goal.
IOW, she’s fine with rigging elections to keep the GQP in power.. as long as its done under color of law.
Delk
And they want to use “sheeple” as a put down.
RaflW
@Scuffletuffle: That can work. But I think making the point swiftly that they’re invited there to comment on the content, and if they can’t, they get zero oxygen for a gish gallop is more tactical.
Do it a few times and the guests, who very much want screen time, will have to at least pretend to weigh in on substance. We’d still need follow up questions like we sometimes see from foreign reporters that too often are lacking over here.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Betty Cracker:
I can only imagine what a conversation between Trump and Ivanka would be like after that testimony. Would he write her out of a will?
Starfish
Since last night, I have been deeply curious about the filmmaker. Here is more information about him. He had been embedded with the Proud Boys since 2020. He captured the meeting between Tarrio and Stewart Rhodes in the garage that has been used against both The Proud Boys and The Oath Keepers to charge them with seditious conspiracy, so I think we will likely hear more about this in the future. He also directed numerous music videos, and you can read about that here.
Constance Reader
What surprised me is the number of people who have written/blogged/tweeted/etc. the opinion that these hearing will have any effect whatsoever on anything.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
War of Attrition. But last night felt like it moved the ball by feet and not inches.
Ohio Mom
@zhena gogolia: Is what Slava Malamud said (“It won’t change any minds, it won’t clear the fog inside Trumper heads, it won’t hurt the GOP in November”) so much different than what Cole says in the post (“half the country won’t even flinch, and 1/3 of the country probably is only upset that it failed”)?
Or is it that he cynically predicts the collapse of the US? I don’t think he looks forward to that, I think that was added for effect. Certainly it’s mainstream to say that part of the Committee hearings’ purpose is to create a record.
Disclaimer: I look at Slava’s Twitter feed a few times a week.
VOR
Surprises for me:
RaflW
@bbleh: Yeah, I’d say there are two target audiences: The 3-5% of middlish, often late-deciding voters. And the press itself.
The latter may be forced to contend with content for a period of time, rather than just horserace and ratings. I won’t hold my breath that it’ll last, but if the narrative frame can even partly shift to “embattled Republicans scurry around refusing to say who asked for pardons” we’ll have made some progress.
livewyre
@Aziz, light!~: Whenever I see someone confidently state the future with an implication of futility, I regard that statement as aspirational and put all their other statements in that context. For what it’s worth.
ETA: To elaborate a bit: words do work and words have power. Speaking is an act. It’s important to keep in mind what the result of that act is. Are you working for a future other than the one you project? In what way? How can we tell? Most importantly, can we count on your help?
James E Powell
1/3 of the country, 100% of the media.
TriassicSands
Nothing really surprised me, but Cheney was even more effective than I thought she would be. Her politics are horrible, but her willingness, not just to refuse to join the spineless Republican cowards, but to call them out in such a powerful manner may be the most valuable weapon this committee has against the authoritarians. Thompson deserves huge credit for allowing Cheney to spearhead the presentation. He was OK, but his softspoken, congenial manner is likely to be seen by much of the audience as just one more partisan Democratic politician going after Trump. I think an objective observer would reject that idea, but there aren’t many of those in the American electorate.
I look forward to hearing Kinzinger. I hope he follows the Cheney model of concise, explicit condemnation.
OT: I’ve got to mention this. I heard Eric Adams interviewed and he is one colossal asshole. The poor “pragmatic” mayor is fighting a battle with 1) the far left extremists who don’t want anyone held accountable for anything and blah, blah, blah (gun nuts, who actually do exist). That was his characterization. Funny,but I’ve never met that particular straw man, the one who, apparently, wants murderers, rapists, and other criminals running free on the streets to do whatever they want to do.
cmorenc
‘@John Cole:
Such as: my neighbor down the street, who this morning still has a “Trump 2024 – No more bullshit” flag flying on the flagpole in his front yard, directly under the US flag. I’d bet he saw no more of last night’s presentation than the abbreviated distortion/disinformation which Hannity or Newsmax showed him.
Served
Jared saying “I was busy working on pardons” should have set off every alarm at the DOJ. He has no filter or awareness if he would volunteer that breadcrumb, unprovoked, under oath.
RaflW
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Daddy Trump has nothing but debts, so what fun is a will anyway? He lives off cashflow not equity.
Searcher
@zhena gogolia: I was surprised how many times I heard right-wing commentators complain there were no Republicans on the committee.
Elizabelle
@VOR: I cannot wait to see what Liz Cheney (now known as LC) has in store for Jim Jordan.
You know he is in the crosshairs
And for Kevin McCarthy, who tried to install the odious Jordan on the J6 Committee.
Betty Cracker
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Someone on Twitter screen-capt’d his response on his knock-off platform. Sounds like he found a way to explain it to himself without losing face, so she’s probably still on track to inherit the debt!
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: Cheney was impressive. She’s drawn the sword and thrown away the scabbard. Cheney may not be in the next Congress, but her Republican colleagues will have some scars to remember her by.
Elizabelle
@Geminid: And may there be ever less Republicans returned to Congress.
If she hits the political media upside the head, and they stop assuring us that the GOP has it in the bag, that will be another great service performed.
JMG
When it comes to the audience for these hearings, my belief is that the committee’s entire presentation is aimed at an audience of one — Merrick Garland.
Kay
I was surprised at how violent the attack was. I had watched clips but they were not close in. I thought the series of clips that were eye level, where the Trumpists were attacking police, were really shocking.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Betty Cracker:
Damn, lol. It’s incredible how people like Trump can rationalize stuff like that away
@RaflW:
Good point
RedDirtGirl
@Joy in FL: He made it very clear that he was there because of a subpoena.
TriassicSands
@TaMara:
Quested did stress that he was appearing pursuant to a subpoena. That seemed unnecessary to me, but he was probably trying to preserve his credibility as a unbiased journalist, rather than be seen as someone working for “the man ,” which would likely severely limit future access.
RaflW
@TriassicSands: I hope this portends well. Kinzinger was tweeting here in response to some palaver from Elise Stefanik
@AdamKinzinger 14h
Man. I’d hate to be on your side of the insurrection right now. Today was just a taste. Truth always wins.
gene108
Towards the end they presented video of people who came to D.C., because they felt Trump told them to come.
There was one guy, who got 36 months probation. He said he had to come because Trump had done so much for him and the country, while the TFG had not asked for much in support except to vote for TFG and then be in D.C. on 1/6.
His sentiment was how could he refuse to be there, when TFG has done so much good and asked for so little in return.
I think it broke my mind knowing people exist in a different reality from me, but we share the same physical plane of existence.
livewyre
@JMG: Garland knows what his job is. The Committee almost certainly knows. Even some of us do. If he hasn’t been doing it already, then the problem is bigger than him or a president. Remember who’s in charge in a democracy.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
It’s like whiplash when you compare all the “back the blue”, thin blue line, blue lives matter crap to it. They’re not consistent at all.
“We’re for freedom, but back the blue, and also fuck the jackbooted thugs!”
O. Felix Culpa
I wonder if the DOJ is also part of the target audience.
ian
The Proud Boys taking a picture like it was a boy scout outing was pretty surprising.
They really thought this was going to work and they didn’t need to worry about any proof of involvement.
Kay
@gene108:
I know what they were trying to establish, that the Trumpists came because Trump called them to come but I am honestly so, so sick of hearing from individuals on the far Right. They have an outsized place and voice in this country. I no longer care why they do what they do. I think I have heard enough from them. I would like for someone else to have the microphone.
O. Felix Culpa
@O. Felix Culpa:
I missed JMG’s comment at #74. While I don’t think Garland was the sole target, I’m pretty sure they had him in mind.
RaflW
This seems like a beautifully timed release of info.
Ginni’s outreach to overturn AZ electors in this WaPo bonanza:
We still need to know what she knew and when about the abortion case, too. She’s neck-deep in all this shit.
TriassicSands
@RaflW:
I expect him to be effective, though he’ll be written off by many as a RINO, traitor, etc. I think the media have fallen all over themselves giving Cheney credit while more or less ignoring Kinzinger. I wish he had refused to give up his seat without a fight.
Kent
I think they are following the right playbook. Focus everything on Trump and prove that he KNEW he actually lost the election and that he unleashed a violent mob and attempted to instigate a coup ANYWAY.
Everybody else is a distraction. Who gives a shit if Navarro or Meadows ever serve time. I mean I want them to but that won’t affect the course of the country. It is all about Trump
I’d also like to see them go after Ginni Thomas because SCOTUS is also complicit in all of this.
Starfish
@cmorenc: I am curious. Did Hannity show any of it? There was a piece about Hannity in the presentation, wasn’t there?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@RedDirtGirl:
In a Guardian piece on him linked here, it was reported he tried to downplay the meeting between Tarrio and Rhodes in the DC parking garage the day before 1/6, saying he didn’t think they were trying to coordinate the attack. Prosecutors are using that recording as evidence for seditious conspiracy charges levied against them. So yeah, I’m suspicious of him. Maybe while he was embedded with the Proud Boys he became too close to the subjects and sympathizes with them to a degree
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
They’re lucky, the Trumpists. What I saw was several police officers who would have had an absolutely credible claim that their lives were in danger and they had to to shoot their attackers. I was not aware that it was hand to hand combat to that extent. I suppose that’s why that particular officer was called up.
Tony Jay
@Aziz, light!~:
Pfffft. Voting in November will be driven by the unfolding Mitch McConnell/Tom Selleck/Grapefruit Mousse scandal and the fallout from them finding the wreckage of an alien spacecraft on the set of Brazillian Love Island.
That is to say, maybe, maybe not.
O. Felix Culpa
@RedDirtGirl:
I thought it was curious that he picked up Tarrio from jail and drove him around. Intentional or not, maybe Quested got a little too involved with the subject?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@O. Felix Culpa:
Wouldn’t surprise me, tbh. I hope these hearings will result in charges from the DOJ
Starfish
@TriassicSands: The speaking parts last night, by committee members, were limited to Cheney and Bennie Thompson. This is different from regular Congressional hearings, where various members are grandstanding for their five minutes. I wonder if others will have opportunities to speak at future hearings.
Omnes Omnibus
@West of the Rockies: I bet Courtney and Squee can see through him too. Not Chad though.
Josie
I was surprised to hear that some congress persons were seeking pardons and that the committee has names and proof.
Second surprise was just how smarmy young Jared is and that he allowed us to see it. He obviously has no clue. Can you imagine the private thoughts of people who were forced to deal with him during that administration?
Mallard Filmore
@Scuffletuffle:
A: ‘I already know what happened and was too busy helping to cover it up.’
bbleh
@RaflW: I think it’s a LOT more than 3-5% who are “late-deciding” whether to vote. I would agree that it’s that fraction, or even less, who make up their minds about how to vote, if they vote at all (again, Bitecofer stan here), but I think it’s more like ten times that fraction who may or may not actually vote their preferences, and who do it or don’t often on the basis of very little information, and often choosing whether to do so as late as election day itself.
IOW, this is as much a proto-GOTV effort as anything.
Low Key Swagger
What surprised me? 20 miilion viewers. Not. Bad.
Alison Rose
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Maybe he’ll call Tiffany for the first time in…….her whole life, probably
Suzanne
Back in the halcyon days of 2016, I predicted that the Trump presidency would be such a disaster that it would be undeniable, and his voters would be embarrassed and no one would admit to voting for the guy. Like, it would seem miraculous, how he could have gotten elected with no voters!
Obvs I was wrong, he’s got his die-hards who love him and are happy to show their whole asses. And they act like utter trash. And this has absolutely hardened. Trump as lifestyle brand for the downwardly mobile.
But they’re not all of his voters, and I think these hearings will be incredibly embarrassing for the chunk of people who voted for him who don’t live him, but wanted to vote for a Republican. And I’m sure they’ll feel embarrassed. Humiliated, maybe, even. And hopefully they feel bad enough that they decide that engagement in politics is heartbreaking and embarrassing and that they should just not vote or pay attention at all.
bbleh
@Low Key Swagger: Ah finally, a number. Have you the source? Do you know whether it includes estimates of streaming?
ian
@TriassicSands: He was redistricted out by Illinois Dems. ‘His’ seat no longer exists next cycle
trollhattan
@Alison Rose : I’d love to be present for those moments when she encounters the fake tough-guy Republicans like Gaetz face-to-face, to watch the skin melt from their faces under her glare.
Ohio Mom
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Ivanka’s real patrimony is her last name, for better or worse.
I am sure the finance guys working for the Trump organization have systematically created nice sized nest eggs in off shore accounts for all the family members.
In families like ours, wills are a big deal because no one can know if our elders will have any money left for us. My friend Martha once showed off her modest new bedroom furniture set to me, remarking, “I bought that with the money I inherited from my dad, so you can guess how much he left me, hahaha.” But the ultra-wealthy are doing “estate planning” continually, putting money in trusts and otherwise sheltering it.
Now if Ivanka causally admitting under oath she accepted that Trump lost will affect their relationship — I am going to guess Trump will shrug that off. He will consider it a cost of doing business.
Wakeshift
@Starfish:
I believe the each of the upcoming hearings will center one of the Color Teams, focused on specific topics/angles.
So i think all members will take a lead role at different times.
West of the Rockies
@Ken:
Can you imagine the outrage if a Scooby Doo reboot was announced but Freddie was black, Daphne openly gay, and Shaggy a trans man?
trollhattan
@Starfish: BBC seems baffled at how to present the hearings and among their coverage run Fox audio clips, including Hannity and Tucker, mewling to the heavens about what a waste it is, focusing on something ayearnadahalfago while in the meantime, gas prices and formula and antifa!
Starfish
@West of the Rockies: I am digging this reboot. Velma is a non-binary, aromantic asexual.
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
What we see in police interactions that go bad is “resisting”. Police are in control of the suspect and then the claim is they lost or could have lost control so they have to do chokeholds, etc. Those result in police claims that their lives were in danger and then we weigh that- was it excessive force? This was much, much different than that. Police were outnumbered and being attacked- hit, thrown to the ground, ect.
Captain C
@West of the Rockies: Kushner reminds me of Ryan Phillippe’s character in Cruel Intentions, except asexual and totally devoted to his own self-aggrandizement instead.
sab
@Kay: I was surprised by how big the crowd was all around the Capitol, and by how violent they were with even their own people. Pushing and shoving at the back of a big crowd can get a lot of people in the middle trampled.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: Hoover got almost 40% of the vote in 1932 when there was around 23% unemployment.
Tribalism is strong.
We know this. We just have to keep pushing forward.
Cheers,
Scott.
James E Powell
@Constance Reader:
A lot of people – writers & readers alike – confuse savvy cynicism with wisdom.
Bupalos
@Aziz, light!~: I just don’t get this thing where everyone spends half their time doing these doom predictions. Like it’s some kind of contest, who can be more totally hopeless and jaded by swearing up and down the future is cast in stone and they know what it is.
It’s sooooo counterproductive.
TriassicSands
@Starfish:
i pointed out that I thought Thompson deserves great credit for turning things over to Cheney. Some of the Democrats can be pretty good , e.g., Raskin, but none can have Cheney’s credibility in this environment. I’m sure everyone will get their chance and that may or may not be the wisest course of action. Part of the problem with Congress is “seniority.” When the fate of the country is on the line, you choose the best person. Thompson, fulfilled his role by speaking first, but he let Cheney dominate the first night. That could be the best decision he’ll ever make. I think any fair-minded person would probably agree that Cheney — evil-doer that she is — was more effective than Thompson. That’s not a criticism of Thompson, who did his job very well.
West of the Rockies
@bbleh:
So I think a recent poll suggested 54% of Republicans would vote for Trump in ’24.
I think that is a horrible number. If he can get only, let’s say, 80% of previous Trump-voting Repubs to vote for him (the others staying home or writing in Mike Pence), he’s in serious trouble.
I remain optimistic.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
Yes, this. Totally wasn’t prepared for how truly excellent she was.
Kay
@sab:
I better understand why no one was arrested at the scene. It would have been impossible. The police were barely defending themselves let alone making arrests.
Suzanne
@West of the Rockies:
If the GOP and Trump brands can be successfully intertwined and both made toxic, that could influence enough people to just stay home. This is my hope.
Kent
@Alison Rose : Did Tiffany have any role in the Trump Administration like Javanka? I wasn’t aware that she did.
Starfish
@Bupalos: It is a coping mechanism. By preparing for the worst, people are dealing with their feelings now, so they won’t be shocked or disappointed by later outcomes.
zhena gogolia
@Ohio Mom: I don’t like Cole’s original post either. But it’s not as bad.
I’m sick of this casual cynicism. It’s what I’ve seen in Russia over the years among the people I know there, and it’s what leads to what they have now.
Kent
@West of the Rockies: Don’t believe it. When it comes down to November 2024 the vast majority of Republicans that vote will still vote and they will vote GOP. As always it will come down to swing votes in swing states.
Scout211
Next hearing witness, former Fox News editor Chris Stirewalt
artem1s
@TriassicSands:
His access to the PB’s is over and he knows it. He is probably reminding the people who will now see him as an enemy, who he probably had some sort of contract with, that he had no choice but to betray their confidence. He’s seen their violence up close and personal and doesn’t want to give them an excuse to sue him or come after him.
He may also be carving out a way to ‘save’ all the time he’s put into his project. If there were agreements signed about the use of the footage he might still be able to repurpose it if he can demonstrate he didn’t voluntarily break the contract – he was impelled to. In any case, the documentary he was planning on making is toast because he’s forever lost access to the subject of that documentary.
Gin & Tonic
@Ohio Mom: My dear wife and I are very *very* far from ultra-wealthy, yet found estate planning to be important enough to drop a decent chunk of change on it. Simplifying things for our offspring is not a waste of time or money.
TriassicSands
@Bupalos:
My definitions:
An optimist is a person who is in Hell and believes s/he will be in Heaven tomorrow even if s/he does nothing.
A pessimist is a person who is in Heaven and believes s/he will be in Hell tomorrow no matter what s/he does.
A realist is a person who knows where the hell s/he is and that what s/he does matters.
However, being a realist does not preclude acknowledging that things are really bad and success is unlikely (see climate change). Realistic thinking should not allow hopelessness or giving up.
West of the Rockies
@Suzanne:
If the hearings result in only a discouraged and dissipated Republican party, that would still be a win.
Calouste
I’m wondering if one of the things the committee has lined up is an appearance under oath by Mike Pence.
Alison Rose
@Kent: Nope. I would be fully prepared to believe Trump literally doesn’t remember that she exists.
Ken
Well, yes, but West of the Rockies was describing how he would change the characters for the reboot.
Immanentize
@O. Felix Culpa: i made a point in a very obtuse way in an old thread — but at this particular moment, Liz Cheney can only become the leader of the “opposition” party (rather than full fash party) if Democrats give her tons of air, support, money, and frankly power.
I am thinking of McMullin (R) in Utah who the Dem party is supporting — not even putting up an opponent for the Senate Seat of Mike Lee. Interesting move! But I do not think we should be making that a party practice. Cheney may or may not win in Wyoming. I think the polls suggesting she is way behind are super partisan propoganda — but I am not on the “support her” wagon. Like I don’t “support” the never Trumpers. But I will clap when they batter the real threats.
trollhattan
@Another Scott:
Mister, we could use a man like Hoibert Hoovah, again.
Xavier
@Starfish: Raskin in particular can be a very effective speaker.
West of the Rockies
@Starfish:
And Muslim! ☪️
bbleh
@West of the Rockies: Right. And (probably not coincidentally), assuming Republicans are an even half of the country (not an unreasonable assumption), 54% of that works out to … exactly the Crazification Factor.
Those people are, and always have been, unreachable. And again, the point is not to switch Republicans to Democrats; the point is to convince Republican-leaners to stay home and Democratic-leaners to get out and vote.
trollhattan
@Kent: Tiff brought daddy his Adderall, but only Ivanka was allowed to chop it.
AliceBlue
@sab: A woman from Georgia was trampled to death in that crowd.
TriassicSands
@artem1s:
I have no idea where his sympathies, if any, lie, but I’m sure he wants to preserve his career.
I also don’t know where he is in the production of his video. He may, for all I know, have enough to produce a finished, if not ideal, product.
Documentariarns use access to groups all the time that will ultimately be seen by some subjects as betrayal. Realistically, that’s part of the process. They use the material and move on. I can’t imagine any credible grounds for lawsuits.
Scout211
Remember, it wasn’t clear that “Butter emails!” And “Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!” had any effect initially because Hillary was not charged and they did not “lock her up!”
But they did have an effect in the long run, in the media, in TFG’s rallies and ultimately with the director of the FBI (*spit!*)
I would like all kinds of things out of these hearings, but if it pushes TFG out of the 2024 election at the very least, I will be okay with that.
sab
@Immanentize: I agree. Cheney still thinks (or at least says) that it was antifa damaging American cities all last summer. She thinks ( or says) that they are comparable to the Proud Boys. She is is useful now but she is not our friend.
Ken
@TriassicSands: I prefer the versions from a (very old) humor piece, which I once found in a Reader’s Digest collection:
An optimist is a person who when his house catches fire is found by the firemen sobbing on the curb, wondering how this could ever have happened.
A pessimist is a person who when his house catches fire is found by the firemen spraying the fire with his garden hose, having already evacuated the family and pets and removed the car from the garage — because he knew this could happen.
O. Felix Culpa
@Immanentize:
Prezackly. I applaud her evisceration of the enemies of democracy, especially the Tangerine Baal(h/t Ms. Cracker) and his enablers. I would not advocate for giving her any more support than allowing her to exercise her superb knife skills on mutually agreed upon targets.
TriassicSands
@Xavier:
I mentioned him in an earlier comment. He’s effective because he’s articulate and passionate. Those qualities are not common enough among Democratic politicians. (No comment on Republicans.)
Geminid
@TriassicSands: Kinzinger knew that Springfield Democrats would draw him a tough seat. So even if he turned back a Republican challenger his district might still be unwinnable. Illinois Democrats did manage to pull off a very partisan gerrymander, and unlike in New York they got it past the courts.
I think Cheney has burned her bridges with the Republican party. Even if she can win her primary she she’ll be reviled forever. Kinzinger may have a future, though. He’s younger, and he’s a man. I won’t be surprised if he moves to a purple state, bides his time, and then runs for Congress again. Or maybe one of Illinois’ few Republican congressmen will retire. Rodney Davis is no spring chicken. Davis is in a Rep on Rep battle now, with trumpster Mary Miller.
Kinzinger is a former Air Force pilot and that can cover his blemishes. A lot will depend on the next few election cycles. If Republicans keep losing, Kinzinger might start looking good to them.
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: I have offered my views on this often enough to annoy people, so I will just quietly agree with you.
Immanentize
On the Statement trying to pose as a question,
“Do you really think that anyone’s mind will be changed by this?!”
A few obsvs:
1) I am really quite shocked that this was so well inserted into the public consciousness! Why? How? One reason is relentless messaging by the Rs and the cynical media. Another is that so many (myself included) were primed to expect/feel this by, at a minimum, the two impeachments and police brutality and unchecked gun violence, etc. But whatever the reasons, it is deep in the culture.
2) This morning when I asked whether the Immp (who watches very little in real time) whether he saw any of the hearing last night he asked the above question. The Immp is informed, knowledgeable and cynical as all get out. It only took me a few minutes to convince him that yes, minds were changed and more could be. And he was happy to learn that.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Same.
TriassicSands
@Ken:
Those seem incomplete to me. For example, this seems better to me:
An optimist is a person who smokes in bed and falls asleep every night, and when his house catches fire is found by the firemen sobbing on the curb, wondering how this could ever have happened.
artem1s
@Kay:
I better understand what a miracle it was that security didn’t open fire and turn it into a blood bath. I’d chalk it up to racism. But I’m thinking it may have more to do with DC and Capitol Police getting decent crowd control training that isn’t based on shoot first and ask questions later. They weren’t prepared for what the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were doing but they still didn’t use it as an excuse to panic and kill a bunch of bystanders in a hail of gunfire. TFG wouldn’t have cared who got killed if it furthered his aims – especially if Antifa and BLM had turned out. While the PB and OK knew what they were in for, the bulk of the rubes there that day had no idea that TFG planned for it to turn into a riot and bloodletting.
Geminid
@Starfish: The other seven members will get their nights. It is a good thing, though, that leadership selected a compact, nine member committee. Like you say, a lot of five minute appearances would dilute the impact.
Xavier
@zhena gogolia: Amen on cynicism. It only furthers the interests of the oligarchy.
JPL
@geg6: I was so surprised, that at one point I thought how proud her father must me.
btw I did not like her father at all.
topclimber
@bbleh: This first session tied everything about this conspiracy in an easily followed narrative. I don’t recall the Watergate hearings doing the same.
I will definitely press the few normies who listen to me to watch it on YouTube. No fair-minded person can watch even the first hour of this without realizing how far away from “politics as usual” this attempted coup was. “Both sides” don’t pull this shit.
Immanentize
@Kay: I always saw that as the reason for not arresting folks that day but with a sprinkling of collaboration mixed in. The law folks were overwhelmed and their goal was to clear the building. I am not sure what turned the switch on the insurrectionists — they had pretty much won! They were in control! But then they couldn’t even do what high schoolers do in a principal’s office and stage a occupation. They couldn’t just sit it out for one night.
They stood down soon after the Guard was finally called in.
O. Felix Culpa
@Immanentize: I was dismayed last night to find out that Ms. O had the same “what’s the point” outlook. A rare near-argument ensued. :)
I don’t often have reason to thank the FTFNYT, but she (and I) were encouraged to read Leonhardt’s newsletter this morning, which echoed my case for the value of the hearings. Sometimes changing trusted (whether merited or not) journalist’s narratives can make a difference, especially among normies.
artem1s
@TriassicSands:
true, but he’s not dealing with people who understand what credible grounds are. he’s dealing with people who think TFG’s legal challenges to the election had merit.
Chief Oshkosh
@RaflW
We’ll get some indication based on who gets invited to the Sunday shows.
Villago Delenda Est
Liz Cheney hitting it out of the park so hard that it’s going to need a visa, because it’s on it’s way to South America.
She was vicious.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ken: I really love how all of these stories make seeing the potential of positive outcome as delusional. I don’t think any of the optimistic commenters on this blog deny that a lot of work needs to be done in order to achieve a positive outcome. We’re just willing to see it as an achievable goal.
JPL
If Cheney loses her seat, she’ll move to think tank and write a book about democracy. She can’t be the leader of the republican party. Gerrymandering has but rid us of moderate or at least sane republicans in the house. It’s only moderately better in the Senate though.
TriassicSands
I understand that, but it doesn’t strike me as a reason to simply give up. Much more is at stake than his one seat.
The bigger picture —
On the other hand, if his withdrawal makes it more likely that the seat goes to a Democrat, then that is a very good thing. While lavishing praise on Cheney and Kinzinger for standing fast for democracy, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that most of their votes are extremely objectionable.
TriassicSands
She was fair and balanced.
EarthWindFire
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s not at all inconsistent if they believe the police’s role is to protect their precious selves from those people.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: I have my TIAA/CREF savings, my house (almost), And some $$$ that came via my wife’s savings for retirement. Not making me wealthy but not nothing. I really feel a need to work through that more now. Should I create a trust for the Immp now? And more present in my mind — until April I never even had a thought about what would I do if the Immp pre-deceases me? I really do not want whatever I have to flow intestate to my brother.
Time to call in the lawyer!
Omnes Omnibus
@TriassicSands: That’s what VDE said.
catclub
How about the money angle? who paid
Sure Lurkalot
I thought this first hearing was cogent and moving. It had about the right level of emotion and horror.
My surprise is petty…the question as to why anyone would choose to have so many Botox and filler treatments that they look like Jarvanka. What in the hell do they see when they look in the mirror? To me, they look like creepy mannequins.
I do know this will not change any opinion of my brother’s, who wouldn’t watch, read or listen to anything that contradicts his world view, which is anything that comes out of Fox’s assorted pie holes. The impetus should be separating the forever lost from the misguided and habitual. I have no idea what the numbers are.
TriassicSands
@artem1s:
I think Giuliani is available. Can he practice law again, yet?
With co-counsel Sidney Powell, they’d be unstoppable!
catclub
I really thought the subtext of Officer Edwards’ testimony was: “I didn’t expect to be using my riot control skills on white upper middle class people.”
Ohio Mom
@Gin & Tonic: Oh yeah, we have an elder law attorney, wills (even Ohio Son has a will), a family trust and a special needs trust (and some other odds and ends) because when you have a child with a disability you don’t want to do anything that will screw up their eligibility for government benefits (which is them having more than $2,000 in their name). I know from estate planning and I know it isn’t only for the wealthy.
But for a lot of Americans, the big question about their parents’ finances is somewhere between “Are they going to outlive their money and I’ll have to start paying for their expenses?” and “Is the Medicaid look-back going to screw things up?”
My friend Martha, by my estimation, inherited around $8,000. Not enough to make a difference in her life so she treated herself to new furniture.
Joy in FL
@Starfish: Thank you for the links about the filmmaker.
Hoodie
Biggest surprise for me is that they laid out a prima facie case against Trump from the outset. I expected a more screwing around trying to build that up over days of testimony, which would have been a mistake. In contrast, if memory serves me, no one was thinking of Nixon as the direct target at the outset of the Watergate hearings. This hearing appears to be structured more like a trial or, more accurately, an arraignment, with last night’s presentation serving as the prosecution’s charging document.
I read several people today arguing that last night shows that the DOJ should proceed with a prosecution of Trump. I somewhat agree, but it’s one thing to make a prima facie case in a congressional hearing and another to make a case where the burden of proof is guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. They did make a good start toward proving intent, which is the toughest nut to crack in a case like this.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: And here I thought I’d be considered flip if I said you should talk to a lawyer. They are actually useful for something other than fertilizer.
Xavier
@TriassicSands: I saw this recently: an optimist is one who thinks this is the best of all possible worlds, and a pessimist is one who is afraid the optimist is right.
trollhattan
@Immanentize: From the bleachers, the in-laws did a (irrevocable living) trust here in California that proved useful in dividing the “spoils” among a vast family shrub after my MIL passed. Saved a lot of headaches and possible lawyer deployments. A big help, given the family shrub includes actual imprisoned felons.
By contrast, in Washington State where my mom lived, her financial guy (who was gold, Jerry, gold) advised that trusts really didn’t work there as they do in California and there was nothing to gain and only expenses to lose by creating one.
I suppose the answer, as it often is, is “depends.”
JaneE
@Suzanne: What amazes me is all the Trump supporters who love all the great things he has done for the country, like that rioter who felt he needed to do something for Trump in return. If I thought really hard I could probably come up with some things that were not too harmful, but the only good thing I can think of is actually funding operation Warp Speed, and I have to wonder if the creation of the vaccine was the priority or just shoveling money at Big Pharma.
I hope that some of the generations deep Republican families I know can still put principle over party, but there are plenty here who still fly their Trump flags.
One hopeful sign is that the Democratic candidate for Representative got more votes than the highest Republican. Usually our “voter nominated” primary winds up with two Republicans in the general. That was all over before the hearings.
Immanentize
@O. Felix Culpa: One of the things I told the Immp was that a large segment of society had it’s mind made up. I am one of them. But the committee really did not bloviate or argue or opine. They just let the actors (police and seditionists) tell the story in their own words. It was effective because it was not very political at all. He liked that answer and agreed to go watch the 10 minute viddy and the occicer’s testimony. Win!
Also, I told him that we are currently playing a game of close margins, so any change of heart or better understanding was good for the country. I don’t think he cared about that argument
trollhattan
@TriassicSands: Good lord, that would create a singularity of legal stupid.
sab
@AliceBlue: I know. But just one person. Soccer matches and rock concerts have dozens.
Joy in FL
@RedDirtGirl: Thanks. I must have been out of the room for that part. It makes total sense; I don’t mean to diminish Mr. Quested’s testimony or his motives.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus:
This
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic:
Yessss! Lawyers can teach other lawyers how to become lawyers! (For one example)
Geminid
@TriassicSands: I’ve noticed a lot of concern that people will think better of Cheney and Kinzinger than they should. But we’re all different, and this question matters little to me.
As for Kinzinger running reelection, my feeling generally is that people have to satisfy themselves and their close ones first, and if he doesn’t want to run I’m glad he’s not. The Republican party’s problems are too extensive for Kinzinger to put a dent in anyway.
Villago Delenda Est
@TriassicSands: I see what you did there.
livewyre
@TriassicSands: Strange, I think of optimism as knowing a fire could happen, considering which items are worth saving, having a plan to evacuate everyone, and actually considering it worthwhile to prepare for it and carry it out. Maybe I’m not pessimistic enough to know better.
Villago Delenda Est
@TriassicSands: Well, insufferable for sure!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and they’re unlikely to have a jury of twelve Liz Cheneys, and they might not get Judge Carters at every step in the prosecution (and appeal).
Immanentize
@Villago Delenda Est: ahhh, Lou Reed:
catclub
Like GWBush’s high achievements mostly negative. Trump did not start any stupid wars. Trump did not wreck the economy he inherited from Obama. [Bush did not go to war with Iran, told Cheney to fuck off.]
Bill Arnold
@Aziz, light!~:
The 2016 POTUS election was decided by like 80K votes.
The 2020 POTUS election was decided by like 50K votes.
Close elections can be shifted. And are.
With continued/sustained work through to the election, including by the DoJ and working the media to dominate more news cycles, the Jan 6 committee effort could easily shift a percent or more away from the Republicans.
And it’s not the only item of influence available to Democrats; Trump and his underlings really are being investigated. The SCOTUS really is (or appears to be) about to issue some extremely odious opinions that the majority of Americans disagree with.
(I can do Cassandra too, and quite well, but now is not the time.)
Tony Jay
To compress a thought I had downstairs, the most important thing that should (fingers crossed) come out of these hearings isn’t nailing the Fuhrer of Gross Fuckwittia for his crimes on Jan 6th, its hammering into the national skull the realisation that Jan 6th wasn’t the coup attempt, it was just the most obvious event in an ongoing attempt to subvert American democracy that includes every single GOP functionary who supported the effort to delegitimise Biden’s victory and continue to campaign on the false notion that the election was stolen.
That’s what the GOP are really scared of. They can’t memory hole their attempt to overthrow the Government if its made obvious and undeniable that they’re STILL DOING IT.
Fair Economist
A point about Liz Cheney:
Quite often the good guys don’t win because they beat all the bad guys. The good guys win because the bad guys fight each other. This is one of those situations.
Anyway, she’s so on the outs with the brainwashed Republicans voters we can support her wholeheartedly without worrying it will backfire on us.
Fair Economist
@Geminid: Kinzinger isn’t running because the Illinois legislature gerrymandered him out.
JoyceH
@topclimber:
The Watergate hearings were a very different species of fish from these hearings. They were ‘fact-finding’ hearings. They didn’t KNOW what they were going to find out. They were trying to find out what the heck had gone on, so they called people in, put them under oath and started asking questions. The hearings went on all summer and into the fall. The bomb shells that were produced were unexpected. When someone asked Alexander Butterfield if the White House had some sort of recording system, he said something like, ‘oh, I’d so hoped nobody would ask that question’, and the taping system was revealed.
Here, while the J6 committee is still investigating, the purpose of the hearings is to present to the public what they learned from their investigation so far. So of course it can be better organized and more coherent.
I don’t know if the public has the patience any longer for those sort of open-ended ‘let’s see what we can find out’ style of hearings anymore.
Bill Arnold
@RaflW:
Republicans have been trained to obey Fox News and its lesser competitors for decades. The suggestions that it would be unpatriotic or a waste of brain cells to watch the hearings have been circulating.
Republicans are very very gullible. This can be a Republican strength – homogeneity in thought/talking points – but also a huge weakness – inability to predict one’s opponents and/or underestimation of the relative strength of one’s opponents.
Geminid
@catclub: Trump did walk away from the JCPOA that restricted Iran’s nuclear program. That may have set the stage for a war. The negotiations to reinstate the JCPOA look like they are on the verge of failure.
Israel has been very loud in saying that they will not allow Iran to acquire nuclear weapons. The U.S. is quieter about it, but that is our longstanding position also.
Geminid
@Fair Economist: Yes. I was following up my comment at #148, where I said this.
livewyre
Characterizations aside, it seems like the optimism/pessimism divide hinges on two adjacent questions:
Is it worth saving anything?
Is there anything left to save?
I mean, this isn’t trivia. We’re talking about the future of the political and ecological climate, even within some of our lifetimes. This is the decision of what to work towards and whether to bother working towards it.
What are we willing to lift a finger from the keyboard and do? Not just voting or campaigning or contributing, but operating as political entities in our own right? Are things good enough for us that we’re willing to just ride it down and let someone else pick up whatever pieces are left afterward? Namely, anyone younger or marginalized by enough that they’re already about to deal with it or have been for a while.
Some of us don’t have the option not to exist politically. This may be more of a spectrum than an on/off switch, but I’m not writing this in speculation. What are we willing to do to help things not get worse, here and now, for those less insulated than us? And, relevantly, how does the temptation of cynicism factor into that?
ian
@JaneE:
re-election was the only goal (that they valued) I ever saw in that pursuit
Kay
Should be interesting.
The Moar You Know
@West of the Rockies: I agree. 54% of the GOP is abysmal for him. It will be even lower in 2024. I just hope he retains enough love from the hardcore to ensure a split party and defeat. That might not happen. He’s a loser (his worst nightmare) and everyone knows.
JCJ
@Suzanne:
That is it. Exactly
stinger
(Rolling Stone)
In my fantasies, it comes out that two (R) Senators also sought pardons — an admission of engaging in insurrection or rebellion. Thus they are automatically disqualified to hold office, and Manchinema become irrelevant until the open positions are filled.
Geminid
@Kay: Jeffrey Rozen knows a lot. His appointment as Acting Attorney General was something trump came to regret. I think trump also regreted that he did not appoint a more compliant Acting Secretary of Defense.
JoyceH
@TriassicSands:
Oh, I think he’ll still have access – he’s got a non-American accent. For some reason, the right wing will just spill their guts to people who are native English-speakers with a non-American accent. Every time CNN’s Donie O’Sullivan takes a microphone over to a Trumper at a rally or something, I think ‘THIS time they’ll know better than to talk to him’, but no. You’d think by now they’d be all ‘Eff CNN!’, but they hear that disarming Irish accent and gleefully make total idiots of themselves for the cameras.
BellyCat
@Kay: The body cam video was mostly never seen before and really drove home the violence.
The GOP abandoned those courageous officers.
SiubhanDuinne
@O. Felix Culpa:
Politics makes strange embedfellows.
Layer8Problem
@TriassicSands:
“She’s a cruel woman, but fair.”
Kay
@Geminid:
I don’t have any expectations for any of them. I’ll be pleased if they’re helpful, but they have no assumption of credibility with me anymore. I think they’re all cowards. I think many, many more people in government should have spoken out about the fact that a coup was in progress. I think they failed the public. The public were kept in the dark, for months, about what was actually going on in there. They had a duty to say something. How can we trust them? They choked.
Xavier
@JaneE: Anyone with the brains that God gave broccoli would have funded warp speed. I do credit TFG with not starting any wars, and in fact started the ball rolling on Afghanistan (the actual deal the Great Deal maker made seems to have been “We’ll leave and never come back if you promise not to shoot at us on the way out.”)
Kay
@BellyCat:
I suspected it was bodycam. I’ve watched quite a bit of footage- probably more than any “normie” – and that footage gave me a whole new perspective on what happened. I’m not surprised Fox imposed a news black out on their audience.
Geminid
@Kay: Well, you’re the one who said that their testimony “should be interesting.”
I just observed that Rosen knows a lot, and that Trump regretted his appointment.
Martin
I was surprised that Cheney was willing to call out a fellow Republican for seeking a pardon for their participation. I’m guessing she’s resigned to getting voted out.
piratedan
@stinger: seeing how we’re speculating….
I would put the number of Senators in the 4 to 5 range that could be found to be complicit….
Lee of Utah, Grassley of Iowa, Cruz of Texas and Hawley of Missouri spring immediately to mind….
I wouldn’t be shocked if Blackburn, Scott, Tuberville and Rubio were included in that group either.
In Congress, I’d easily put that number at 10-15…
If we find that they coordinated with Trump and removed from office? and I do mean removed, charged and forced to resign? the landscape changes dramatically…. if the money trail leads back to more odious champions of fascism… and the Saudis and the Russians….
maybe its simply a fantasy and we’ve been told that conspiracy theories are for the other side…. but this kind of corruption… based on what we’ve seen… I could find it plausible.
Omnes Omnibus
@JCJ: I disagree. They are just as interested in moving up, but their success markers are different to those of the urban elites and upper middle classes that many here would recognize. Pickup trucks that cost the same as a BMW. Powerboats. Massive houses on exurban lots. They are the successful realtors, insurance salespeople, and owners of car dealership and mid-sized construction firms. It’s the modern US version of the old British squirarchy.
Xavier
@Geminid: I think he was trying to look “Presidential”. If he gets reelected he won’t make that mistake again.
Tony G
@West of the Rockies: Kushner is another pampered rich kid, just like his wife and his father-in-law and the rest of that vile family. People who have never done any real work, and whose asses have been kissed all of their lives. About one-third of Americans think these people are great.
Ruckus
@Ohio Mom:
“(Though maybe for some people, that helps delegitimize this effort.)”
For me, and it sounds like you, the fact that it was a black man in charge and a white woman republican doing all the talking (and I thought rather well actually) was a very, very good thing. If nothing else it showed this was not an old white boys club get together but an honest process that is trying to govern for all of us in a rather non-historical manner. That change is very good, very necessary and no one can truthfully say it didn’t work.
I was astounded by this 2 hrs of calm, deliberate, presentation of government. Never in my 72 yrs have I seen anything like it. And I wholeheartedly approve, even as I absolutely wish it wasn’t necessary.
gratuitous
Not so much surprising as gratifying to just let the hearing unwind without being interrupted every 10 seconds by some yammering buffoon conservasplaining that what I am watching isn’t really what’s happening.
Geminid
@Xavier: I would like to know the story behind Rosen’s appointment. Like, who recommended him? I never paid attention because there was so much else going on, but it turned out to be a consequential appointment.
Elie
@Aziz, light!~:
Aww for Pete’s sake… why even bother then to watch. You’re better off cleaning the lint out of your navel!
We must not give up and throw in the towel BEFORE trying to fix things. Are you working to register voters? To help candidates? To work for equity and justice in your community? If not, you need to get to work and stop dragging down those of us trying to make things better…
Bill Arnold
@piratedan:
Jan 5 2021:
It was walked back later, but it seems likely (OK quite possible) that the plan was to move Pence away from the invading mob, in a Secret Service car for safe keeping and possible execution (he said he was not getting into that car, paraphrased), and have Grassley do the deed of overthrowing the election.
Layer8Problem
@Gin & Tonic:
“Simplifying things for our offspring is not a waste of time or money.”
@Immanentize:
I had to be guardian/conservator for my parent, who insisted they’d last until 95 (or 105, according to my youngest sibling), and so therefore had no need to consider a will at this time ThankYewVeryMuch. No matter how much Youngest Sibling and I begged, if only to forstall arguments between the other two siblings, no will, no way. Sadly, my parent passed on ten years earlier than the most conservative estimate and dementia showed up a few years before that to put a stop to any will writing at all.
West Virginia has it easy, I was told after the fact: an even split among the siblings if you die intestate. But we’re still arguing over the disposal. Having the sense to get a will written up when you still can saves everyone’s sanity and ensures your heirs get what they need in the manner you want it done.
Bill Arnold
@Bill Arnold:
Pence Refusing to Get in Secret Service Car on Jan. 6 ‘Chilling’: Raskin (BY THOMAS KIKA ON 4/23/22)
Geminid
@Bill Arnold: There is certainly a story here. If more comes out Democratic challenger Mike Franken may be able to use it against Grassley. Franken has an uphill fight, but every little bit helps, and Grassley’s role in the plot might be more than a little thing.
stinger
@piratedan: I hadn’t dared to go so far! Thank you!
However, assuming Grassley were one of them and forced to resign, Gov. Covid Kim would appoint the Speaker of the Iowa House to replace him — said speaker being Pat Grassley, Chuck’s grandson. The name alone would then get Pat re-elected fifty times, just like his grandpa.
MaryLou
@Joy in FL: assumed that he was there only because his legal advisor suggested he comply with the subpoena.
catclub
@The Moar You Know:
I think you trust those being polled too much. I bet in early 2016 you could get 50% of the GOP to say they would never vote for Trump, and then 99% of them voted for him. If he is the candidate in 24, he will get 99% of their votes.
Rabbit Rabbit Rabbit
Most surprising to me: it was worse than I thought. And, that I found myself actually liking Liz Cheney, or at least appreciating her presentation. And that more people weren’t killed. The idea that those officers didn’t use their guns had to have been the ultimate show of self restraint.
The magat house down the road pulled down their T**** 2024 flag in the last couple of weeks, so unrelated to the hearing, but still surprising.
Sadly, the couple of people who I asked if they were planning on watching used the same language to say no. Two very different people with, probably, the same source of “news”. Gives me a sad.
Cacti
The most surprising part of all of this to me is that it was J. Danforth Quayle who talked Mike Pence out of abetting a coup d’etat.
stinger
@Geminid: Fingers crossed, for sure!
Ruckus
@Kay:
Mobs are like that. They feed on the action, the numbers, and this one had the added concept of the politics as well. And on top of that, this wasn’t some last minute concept, this was drawn up, planned, discussed, prepared for well in advance. Some of the people involved live for crap like this, seemingly feeling it’s their destiny and one they rarely get to full fill. I’ve worked around crowds professionally and I’ve seen the dynamics of a common direction allows people to do things the might otherwise not, as well as allow people who want to be seen as leading, get a chance to actually do that. Many of them are people that would never get a chance to lead in any professional setting but in a mob they get a chance to shine. But not stick out too far.
Baud
@Ruckus:
I should join a mob.
Layer8Problem
@Baud: You should have a mob. They’re a tremendous help with yard care and spring cleaning.
Baud
@Layer8Problem:
I thought that’s what minor children were for (which I also don’t have).
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
“And they act like utter trash.”
They aren’t acting.
Omnes Omnibus
@Layer8Problem: Not if they are unruly.
Layer8Problem
@Omnes Omnibus: Mind you, a well-regulated mob. It goes without saying.
MaryLou
@Joy in FL: assumed that he was there only because his legal advisor suggested he comply with the subpoena.
@livewyre: Indictments for seditious conspiracy have already been filed. Interestingly, just days before Proud Boys/Oath Keepers were so brilliantly featured in Night One of the hearings. So I’m not doubting Garland, even if the Twitterati love to bitch about him.
JCJ
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, that is certainly a group of rabid assholes. Speaking of which, I can’t believe all the ads that crop of assholes running for governor are running. Thankfully I don’t watch much TV, but I have seen plenty. That first Tim Michels ad was a doozy. After it ran one time my wife stated, “I hate him!” Later ads he seems to be on some mood stabilizers so he is not foaming at the mouth.
Betty
@Scout211: I agree. Some people seem to think she wrote herself. Not likely.
Gravenstone
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): “Back the Blue” was only ever about empowering cops to abuse Blacks and other “lesser” life forms as viewed by the trash contingent. Once those cops get in the way of what the trash want, then they are just another obstacle to be broken.
The Golux
@AliceBlue:
…while carrying a “Don’t Tread On Me” flag.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Oh yes, I am looking forward to the Trump verses de’Santis death match and slime a’thon during the 2024 primaries.
Gravenstone
Another effective framing might be “nearly 15 times more than previously known”. Really pop the factor there.
Quaker in a Basement
@zhena gogolia: Cheney is defending Constitutional order. Disagree about issues, but I have to respect her defense of democracy.
Kay
@Ruckus:
One of the pundits on PBS said the Trumpists were “force multipliers” for the Proud Boys, which makes sense to me. They could be that without being aware that was their role.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Martin:
Wyoming has open primaries (effectively)
Wyoming law stipulates that parties conduct open primaries for congressional and state-level offices. While a voter must be affiliated with a political party in order to participate in its primary election, any voter, regardless of previous partisan affiliation, may change his or her affiliation on the day of the primary.
Layer8Problem
@The Golux: Sometimes the universe is writing the irony.
Paul in KY
@Immanentize: I could see her moving to the Democratic Party. We have anti-choice Democrats. She knows there are only 2 viable parties here in the US and if she has to leave the GQP, then it has to be to us
Edit: She’d probably have to move to another state to obtain elective office.
O. Felix Culpa
@Paul in KY:
I get your point, and such a move would stretch the Democratic Party’s “big tent” concept beyond the breaking point, given her views and votes on practically every issue besides Constitutional order.
ETA: Unless she’s willing to embrace other basic Dem tenets too, which I doubt. But maybe she’ll have a road to Damascus conversion. Weirder things have happened. On the third hand, she’s a Cheney.
topclimber
I have no problem with the doomsayers on this thread, except that they think too small.
First, let’s humor the optimists for a moment: Trumpism continues to wither (smaller rally attendance, rising number of defeats for TFG-approved candidates both in primaries and general elections). It then nosedives following the select committee’s work and a decent midterm outcome for Democrats which enables a do-something majority to function for the rest of Biden’s first term.
Take another hit on the bong and imagine the GOP splintering as a result. The deplorables keep the name. The rest, mainly united by their genetic inability to vote for Democrats, form a new group–Constitution Party anyone?
Sounds good, right? Wrong.
A third party will need someone to lead it. Who better than Liz Cheney, righteous defender of the Constitution and scourge of “both sides”?
Sure, third parties often peter out, but sometimes they don’t (see GOP, 1860). And how the Village would love the story! Assuming she can win her House election this year, “Comeback Cheney” could as easily win a Senate seat too. Remember, in the oversized county of Wyoming (pop. 580K), both are statewide offices.
She might even lead a caucus of independents in the Senate, with the likes of Manchin, Murkowski, Collins and Sinema. Round about 2028, Comeback Cheney could well become the first rightwing female with a shot at becoming President. After all, Kamala Harris won’t have become any whiter by then! So, yet another story line for the media pack to run with. Think, too, how the vision of a Presidential campaign as one big cat fight would arouse pundit…interest.
So embrace the darkness, reflexive pessimists, whenever a misguided glimmer of hope suggests that the select committee’s work will convince enough people that Trump and his enablers have to go. It could just lead to something else very, very bad.
Better to hug the doom you face now rather than the bigger doom that may be, amirite?
Geminid
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I’ll be interested in seeing if Trump tries to head DeSantis off by undermining his reelection for governor. Trump thinks DeSantis is ungrateful.
O. Felix Culpa
@Geminid:
In this, he is probably, most unusually right. :)
Just One More Canuck
@zhena gogolia: Other than his seeming to be a doomsayer on just about everything and his well established hatred of Alexander Ovechkin, I don’t know much about Malamud. Is there something more about him I should be aware of?
MagdaInBlack
@topclimber: I have no doubt she is going to run for President, as the “sane republican” option.
Geminid
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Crossover votes may also save South Carolina Impeacher Tom Rice. That state does not register voters by party, so all primaries are open. I think South Carolina holds it’s primary June 28.
Rice’s 7th CD is the northeast corner of South Carolina, running from Myrtle Beach on the coast inland past Florence.
WaterGirl
@Geminid: Cheney is doing the right thing. I will be surprised if it’s all in the name of preserving democracy.
There is a non-zero chance that she is betting on this as her only path to possibly being president some day. The odds aren’t in her favor, but if she wins, she wins big.
Calouste
@Baud:
Baud, don’t undersell yourself. You shouldn’t join a mob, you should join the mob.
Scout211
So there is actually punishment meted out for publicly minimizing the January 6th insurrection. Well, at least if you are a coach for the Washington Commanders.
O. Felix Culpa
@MagdaInBlack:
In that case, doomed to fail in the GQP primaries. I have no problem donning a doomsayer hat for this scenario.
I would also have a big sad if LC were the first female president, when the honor should have gone to HRC. [Comey, ptui!]
Calouste
@Geminid: I think the shitgibbon doesn’t stand any chance of being declared the winner of the GOP primaries in Florida if DeSantis is running and still governor and in control of counting the votes.
RaflW
@TriassicSands: “I wish he had refused to give up his seat without a fight.” Yep, this. I think he lost some standing in the public for volunteering to be a lame duck. But he’s going out strong, at least.
Omnes Omnibus
@JCJ: Michels is a perfect example.
WaterGirl
@O. Felix Culpa: I think Quested made an indirect reference to that early in his testimony. Something like it being part of his job to make sure the people he is documenting “feel comfortable” with him.
Possibly he may have gotten too involved, or perhaps there’s a deliberate attempt to let others assume he sees the world as they do in order for them to let their guard down.
Either way the Proud Boys surely felt comfortable with him filming them in compromising positions.
West of the Rockies
@The Golux:
That’s what you call irony…
janesays
The first question is in doubt, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Merrick Garland has proven himself to be the weakest Democratic AG in my lifetime, and it’s not particularly close. I’d obviously much rather have him than Gorsuch on SCOTUS right now, but I’d also prefer having a literal rock on SCOTUS over Gorsuch, so the bar isn’t particularly high. What I would give for a time machine to the presidential transition to sneak in Doug Jones for Merrick Garland right now.
As to the second question – would a jury ever convict Trump?
Nope, absolutely not. Because there’s guaranteed to be at least one Trump sympathizer on that jury panel, and they’ll have no qualms whatsoever about forcing a hung jury, even if it completely pisses off the other 11 jurors.
It’s a fantasy to believe that orange turd will ever spend one second of his life incarcerated.
Gravenstone
@Chief Oshkosh: Well, someone on Chuck Todd’s team tried to invite the ghost of Don Young, so there’s that…
WaterGirl
@Wakeshift: In case folks didn’t catch the post with the Primer on the Color Teams:
Primer on the Hearings of the January 6th Select Committee
Kevin
Consider any minds changed on the other side is a bonus. Maybe it will motivate more non voters/Democrats especially young people to get out and vote so the country doesn’t end up being ruled by a trifecta of the worst of the worst of the GOP again.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@Sure Lurkalot:
As something of a subject specialist, I’m pretty sure Jarvanka cannot cast a reflection or a shadow.
zhena gogolia
I also don’t know much about him except a lot of people quote him blowing his mouth off about things he doesn’t necessarily know anything about @Just One More Canuck:
glc
@Ohio Mom:
Minor edit.
sab
I am hoping part of the Committee’s plan is to get the handful of Congresscritters and Senators who aided and abetted the Jan 6 riff raff declared to have aided and abetted insurrection so that when/if they do get re-elected to Congress the Congress can use 14th amendment Art 3 to ban them.
As an Ohioan I am looking at Gym Jordan.
matt
@ian: They thought they would need proof of involvement to collect their rewards.
WaterGirl
@Immanentize: Yeah, that’s always been kind of a question mark for me. Kind of like this cartoon:
They are violently marauding, Ashley Babbit goes through the window and is shot (then the miracle occurs) and then the violent marauders are being ushered out of the building.
Not really sure how we got from A to C, except that more law enforcement arrived.
Quaker in a Basement
@Paul in KY: Rock, meet hard place. There aren’t really two parties in Wyoming, and outside of Wyoming, she holds no clout.
Mike in NC
I get daily updates from the “Mike Franken for Iowa” campaign. They say Grassley has an approval rating of about 27% and the guy is 89 years old. I guess he feels obligated to run for reelection.
Baud
@Quaker in a Basement:
There are barely two people in Wyoming.
Captain C
@Sure Lurkalot:
In Ivanka’s case, probably “This will help me get a greater share of Daddy’s inheritance than my idiot siblings.”
In Jared’s assuming he has any self-awareness, “Wow! I look more human than ever!”
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: And two of them are Senators. Where do they get the third for the House?
Calouste
@WaterGirl:
I didn’t know it was going to be that kind of documentary.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Kind of speculative, but the main plan seems to have been to get Pence out of the picture and then rig the electoral vote certification. They couldn’t find Pence or anyone else, and then the state National Guard got there, and that was it.
horatius
@O. Felix Culpa: Remember Jennifer Rubin? We’re the party that welcomed back Robert Byrd into our good graces, and he didn’t disappoint. It is a liberal trait to forgive for some who truly atones. There’s a good chance she transforms into a more decent person.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: The vote certification was a ministerial act. There is no room for discretion. This whole thing is so fucking stupid.
Baud
@horatius:
Rubin changed her views, like Cole (although not as far).
Byrd was always a Dem.
Omnes Omnibus
@horatius: Let her transform first. In the meantime, I welcome her actions on behalf of democracy but condemn 90+% of the rest of her actions. I am comfortable with that, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she was as well.
O. Felix Culpa
@horatius:
I’m all for it if she chooses to join the Good Guys. Which means supporting voting rights, women’s rights, minority rights, LGBTQ rights, action on climate change, to name a few core values.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
Bupalos
@artem1s: The footage better explained to me why shots were not fired. On both sides. It wasn’t restraint, it was that over almost the entirety of the battlefield that would likely have resulted in an escalation that would have further endangered the shooter. People don’t generally pull the trigger when their perception is that will put them in more danger.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@Boris Rasputin (the evil twin): He was starting from a very low standard.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sometimes I think we would have been better off if Pence got in the car and Grassley had tried to stage a coup with the certification. As it is, a lot of the GOP ringleaders can hide behind the fact that they didn’t have to go through with the plot.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Well, that is a viewpoint.
sab
@Captain C: Ivanka’s parents probably always told her that she was less than perfect but pretty damn close. Always one surgery away from perfection.
Thankful for my parents, who told me that I was okay and pretty much fit in with rest of the family and the sister who thought she was better was just stuck up.
Another Scott
@janesays: It’s easy to think that Garland isn’t doing anything because he’s not, say, having flashy press conferences every day the way Rudy did when he was a prosecutor in Manhattan.
But maybe review the January 6 prosecutions list at the DoJ. Things are happening, and they’re laying the foundation to go after higher-ups, as they have to do if they want to be successful.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
stinger
@Mike in NC: After after being re-elected, he steps down and Covid Kim hands the Senate seat to his grandson, current Speaker of the Iowa House Pat Grassley.
lurker
@Immanentize:
@Layer8Problem:
Getting an estate plan in place is always wise. If nothing else, as pointed out by layer8, you never know how things will play out. I get requests to write simple wills or set up simple trusts for people, often enough that I set up a pre-written email response for people I am comfortable advising. Basically, it is well outside my specialty, and you want someone who knows what they are doing.
Best move – ask an attorney you know and trust who they would use, and try to get two or three names. It might really be them, but more likely they know someone who they think would do a good job. Second best move, get names from several attorneys. You want someone who understands your local situation though – estate planning tends to be pretty uniform statewide, with obvious transitions at borders (e.g. the comment about trusts in CA vs WA), but sometimes there are local wrinkles that someone from further away might not appreciate. The exact way the plan is put together should work for your state and be individual to you (within reason). Doing a trust in CA makes a lot of sense, whereas in WA the extra expense of a trust does not help nearly as much, so most of the work goes into a will instead. That reflects choices made decades ago about how to protect inherited wealth for Bill Gates’ mother, for example (who has a building named after her at UW) or for the Stanford family, who created a university some people have heard of when their only son died young.
I realize the thread is likely dead, but thought this might help…
Baud
@stinger:
The Hawkeye Hustle.
Geminid
@Mike in NC: I’ve read that there is a plan for Grassley to win that seat once more, and then retire so that Iowa’s Governor can appoint Grassley’s grandson to the seat. The grandson has a leadership position in the state legislature.
Omnes Omnibus
@Geminid: This is the kind of dynastic politics that should concern people.
lurker
thing i was surprised by was how well produced the hearing was – i was worried this would be too much of every member having five minutes at a time. it was clear they had the option of doing something better, and i expected something better than the usual. however, the part of it i saw tuning in late was well done – happy to see that…
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: Hopefully it will concern Iowans. Mike Franken is a good candidate who may be able to make political hay out of this scheme.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’d be one thing if the grandson ran and won on his own. This is nuts.
sab
Allegedly sweet mild mannered apolitical Ashley Babbit was screeching like a rabid banshee as she jumped through that broken window ahead of all the boys into the capital.
The Committee didn’t identify her on tv, but those of us who have followed this recognized her.
horatius
@Bupalos:
That puts the lie into regular statements from police when they shoot unarmed black people at traffic stops. If they think their life is in danger, they wouldn’t be shooting.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Exactly.
Geminid
@Baud: There was some interesting analysis by writers for Just Security. I found it through Cheryl Rofer’s Twitter feed. The writers looked at the question, why was the DC National Guard not called out to deal with the insurrectionists? They pointed out that Trump would have commanded the Guard, and that Pentagon officials may have feared the result.
I think the January 6 Committee may address this question, possibly by taking public testimony from the Acting Defense Secretary and General Milley.
Layer8Problem
@Baud:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Things may not have gone according to plan for the storm trooper part of the mob. Pence just wasn’t falling into anyone’s hands; Senator Markley’s staffers dragged away the actual electoral ballots literally minutes before the bad guys got onto the Senate floor; more Metropolitan Police and National Guard troops were showing up. If Pence was neutralized and the ballots were destroyed or declared obviously tampered with because reasons maybe they could have declared a win and gone straight to Unitary Executiveville. But things were just not lining up. It’s a theory, which is mine.
lurker
@Cacti: the other thing that still blows me away is the role of Quayle… not so much from last night, but from when it came out
Baud
@lurker:
Pence: Should I help Trump stage a coup?
Quayle: Is there an “e” in “potato”?
Citizen Alan
@O. Felix Culpa:
I could see her taking our position on gay rights, given the existence of Mary Cheney. Possibly on guns. And I don’t know that the Cheney family’s position on abortion was ever anything other than politically expedient.
O. Felix Culpa
@Citizen Alan: And what about
eat, I mean, tax the rich? ;)Geminid
@Citizen Alan: My condolences on your mother’s passing. I hope you find a happier place before too long.
Geminid
@Layer8Problem: Congressional leaders understood the danger, and to their credit stayed in the Capitol so they could execute the neccesary certification of the Electoral vote. It happened late at night, and i was very relieved when it did.
Another Scott
@Layer8Problem: I read somewhere that there were multiple copies of the official electoral ballots. Even if the “tourists” had somehow grabbed the copies in the House chamber, they still wouldn’t have won.
Let’s see… Archives.gov (19 page .pdf):
Much more at the link.
The idea that something as important as the transfer of power would be in question because of a few stolen pieces of paper is stupid on its face. But TFG’s minions, while dangerous, were never very bright.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ohio Mom
Slava Malamud has an interesting backstory, the details I don’t all remember. He is a from Moldova and was a Russian sportswriter until there was some sort of big blow-up. Now he is a single dad math teacher in Baltimore. Talk about reinventing yourself. He describes himself as a Jewish atheist.
If you think Balloon Juice is pro-Ukraine, we are wimps compared to Slava. He is very well-read on US history, distains Russian literature (which I guess might be a sticking point for zhena gogolia) and yes, on the dour side. Though considering his personal history, he may have earned his dourness.
Scuffletuffle
@catclub:
MisterForkbeard
@sab: And here I heard that one of the recurring Fox things was “Ashli Babbit wasn’t even in there, how could they not show her?”
Etc.
Ohio Mom
@Citizen Alan: I missed the announcement about your mother’s death. My condolences and deepest sympathy.
Is it too soon and untoward to ask if this makes relocating not in the South easier to accomplish?
Calouste
@Another Scott: Well, these are the people who think courts aren’t valid because they have a flag with fringes on them or not, or something. They think live is like magic, where if something symbolic is off it doesn’t work.
Ruckus
@Immanentize:
In 2012 I had $200 to my name when I got my first SS deposit. And that was after living at a friends house for 5 months at $75 per. I lost everything in the fucking not so great recession. I couldn’t find a job, even a shitty one. My cousin got offered a job and hooked me up with it 7 months later. I just retired from there about 11 months ago. At age 72. I have a bit in savings, had to purchase a car about 6 yrs ago when my 18 yr old one crapped out. Retirement for me has been good, but life is getting by and not much more. Last week my dentist told me I need work on one tooth. $4000.00 I’m hopefully getting it done at the UCLA dental school because it will be cheaper. I don’t know how much but cheaper.
I’m not telling you this for sympathy but because my story is better than quite a few people I know in my seniors apt complex. Someone not long ago wrote here that the billionaires of the US are mostly assholes who think they earned all that money, while most of the rest of us are slackers who don’t add anything to the world, as if they do and that’s why they have so little, I mean really, only a billion?
livewyre
@Ohio Mom: I think I get the sentiment, but in the abstract, earning one’s dourness is a heck of a concept. Some reward.
No matter the reason, I don’t accept that the effect of undermining the struggle for democracy is a fair price for any amount of suffering – even if it was somehow rewarding in itself, which I highly doubt. More white flags aren’t what anyone needs.
Typhoon
@The Moar You Know:
The hope is that DeSantis edges Trump in the primaries, and Trump refuses to hang it up and runs as a Bull Moose in the general election, splitting the GQP vote.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ohio Mom:
None of that makes him correct.
VOR
Plenty of people think we are still in a later stage of the Civil War and that was 160 years ago. Yes, it is an ongoing effort and will impact 2024 even if TFG isn’t on the ballot.
stinger
@Baud: Hah!
Layer8Problem
@Another Scott: And all of that makes great good sense. One really wants to believe that things are not hanging by a single thread, that the folks in the back/tech support/the National Archives can say “we thought of that, there’s a process, there’s redundancy, it’s as resilient as we can make it.” Those “tourists” were looking to throw a bloody spanner in the works: “too late to vote, no VP, multiple copies of counterfeit ballots with fer-sure tampered seals from fifty separate states, imminent national emergency, martial law, enabling act, blah, blah, blah. In sum, we gotta toss the process.”
lowtechcyclist
@zhena gogolia:
This.
I know that if we ever get through this to some normal, non-apocalyptic, small-d democratic time, I will disagree with Liz Cheney about pretty much everything. But right now I’m glad as hell that she’s on the right side of this existential fight.
As far as what surprised me, even though I thought I had a good idea of how lightly the Capitol was defended that day, it was still surprising to hear the filmmaker describe only being able to get one policeman in his frame there at the outer barricades, and to hear the officer talk about how she was one of just five police trying to hold the barrier against the crowd.
brantl
@JPL: Dick Cheney reminds me of the Groucho Marx line, “I’d horsewhip him if I had a horse!” .
O. Felix Culpa
@lowtechcyclist:
Yes. That’s a lot less than “lightly” defended; it’s effectively undefended. Quite different from the bristling defenses deployed during the BLM demo just a bit earlier. One wonders why, especially given the high levels of chat on RWNJ social media suggesting violence in the weeks leading up to January 6.
Geminid
@brantl: Better be careful. Darth Cheney probably has his own fleet of drones!
Another Scott
@lowtechcyclist: Remember the context. Over the previous summer, TFG had tried to create the pretext for calling out the Army to “protect” the cities like Chicago and Portland. There were heavy-handed actions in DC – remember his photo-op with the generals at the church across from the White House. Mayor Bowser and others were worried about having too large a police and military presence in DC as a result. (And that’s part of the reason why the DC National Guard was originally restricted to traffic duty and potentially why the VA and MD guard was not called out for hours.) And that’s why she and others were begging for counter-protestors to stay home on January 6.
There’s many, many pieces to the response and I hope the Committee will follow all the leads. There are many non-obvious lessons to be learned.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Baud:
You usually need pants for a mob…..
Geminid
@Ruckus: ….but back in revolutionary Paris, the Sans culottes made a mean mob!
Citizen Alan
@Geminid: much appreciated.
Citizen Alan
@Another Scott:
IIRC, there was serious speculation in some right wing corners that Obama might not have been properly sworn in because Roberts flubbed the oath of office during the 2008 inauguration. It was nonsense, but these are deeply stupid people
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
I agree with this. Garland’s job is not to be political. He also can’t say or do things that will even suggest an unfair process. That includes talking about the direction of any investigation or likely charges. Many people think he’s supposed to be wide open about what’s happening when he really isn’t.
Citizen Alan
@Ohio Mom:
Well that was going to happen regardless, but I do feel more at ease about it. I’m waiting to hear back from an interview for a permanent job in New Jersey. So positive thoughts would be appreciated.
Another Scott
@Citizen Alan: Yup. They did it again a few hours later or the next day, “just to be sure”…
Of course, he became president at noon, oath or no oath, because that’s what the Constitution says.
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
The Lodger
@Another Scott: Many of these same folks never understood how birth certificates work, either.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@janesays:
What do you think Doug Jones would be doing?
Ruckus
@Citizen Alan:
“It was nonsense, but these are deeply stupid people.”
Not just deeply, also willingly stupid.
Jim Appleton
@O. Felix Culpa: This.
And I have slim hope that such a comparison may be made in a public hearing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I am guessing that the answer is “Something.”
Ohio Mom
@Omnes Omnibus: It was a moment of gallows humor. Geez, all of you jumping on me should go read Slava Malamud’s Twitter for a few days to get some context.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I had the same question
Omnes Omnibus
@Ohio Mom: I’ve read his twitter feed.
livewyre
@Ohio Mom: Sorry, didn’t mean to put you on blast. It’s just that, well… humor or otherwise, I’m not ready for the gallows just yet. Mileage may vary.
NutmegAgain
@Immanentize: Wow! High school whipash. OT, but yeah, I saw ol’ Lou performing in support of Transformer at the Boston Orpheum. Gawd that was a long time ago…
Ella in New Mexico
@Ohio Mom: I agree with you, there’s far more context in Slava Malmud’s posts over time that let you know that that post last night was about fear/despair that even the Great United State’s democracy may not be safe from being taken down in pieces because of it’s citizen’s apathy.
I don’t care if the comment was negative or pessimistic, I empathize with him. The guy literally lived in a place where he experienced authoritarian dicatorship first hand for fuck’s sakes–cut the guy some compassion. If anything he needs to hear words of reassurance that we all have faith that this will pass.
We all think this is the first time in history something like this has happened and it’s not. Go back to the era just after and years before the. Civil War and look at all the shit politicians pulled that was outrageous and likely illegal. We fixed it for a while, but like everything in history, stuff tends to repeat itself without vigilance.
Let things roll out over the next few weeks, I think the message will finally capture the majority of Americans that we cannot let this kind of crap destroy us. We’ll beat it, I’m positive…today at least. ;-)
evodevo
@Immanentize: Yep…that’s when we were nudged to make our first wills – we were going on a trip to Europe with our son, and if something happened, we didn’t want our estate ending up with my husband’s relatives, as it might in an intestate case. Later on, we made yet another one, when, after my son married, but didn’t have any kids yet, didn’t want our money to end up in the hands of his in-laws. Before all that, we didn’t really care where it went lol- funny how circumstances change.
Misterpuff
@Ken: For that, I award you a Scooby Snack!
SamIAm
@Omnes Omnibus:
FTFY
SamIAm
@Omnes Omnibus:
No you haven’t.