BREAKING: Nikki Haley is running for president. Formal announcement will happen Feb. 15. @skropf47 with the major scoop tonight >>> https://t.co/4XJpGvQM9o #scpol #scnews #chsnews #2024Election
— Caitlin Byrd (@MaryCaitlinByrd) February 1, 2023
Early indicators, not exactly promising:
the funniest thing about this tweet is that the QTs are split between reactionaries telling her she’s a RINO and libs dunking on her for being stupid https://t.co/eolBdv6bUN
— GOLIKEHELLMACHINE (@golikehellmachi) January 27, 2023
he’s gonna stomp her into a million little pieces before breakfast and then go play a round of golf, where he will cheat https://t.co/x42K3A4vdr
— world famous art thief (@CalmSporting) February 1, 2023
might be a tim pawlenty but if she campaigns her heart out she could make it all the way up to john huntsman. you can do it. https://t.co/T4E7HdRoaj
— world famous art thief (@CalmSporting) February 2, 2023
They literally laughed at you. At the UN. In front of the world. https://t.co/n8Jmy7QRVT
— Bradley P. Moss (@BradMossEsq) January 28, 2023
i tend to think some of these republicans like haley are actually running in ‘24 with an eye toward ‘28. bettors odds are that despite his age biden wins again. trump wins the nomination and loses again. this is a practice run.
— world famous art thief (@CalmSporting) February 1, 2023
Mar-A-Lago Court Jester, defending her meal ticket…
A number of Republican donors and current/former electeds are preoccupied with the potential for another version of the 2016 primaries playing out. One is Paul Ryan, who has told people that donors/others need to find a way to keep the field small https://t.co/SIWzO20bTP
— Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) February 2, 2023
Qrop Non Sequitur
Jim, Foolish Literalist
remember in ’16 when Walker dropped out and called on his fellow primary candidates to come together to pick one guy to face trump, and (IIRC) Rubio, Cruz, Jeb and Kasich all looked at each other and said, “Yeah, why don’t you all listen to him and go away? I’ll make you ambassador to a nice place!”
Nimrata is gonna Nimrata, she don’t know any better.
“I wonder, what does Paul Ryan think?” — No one, anywhere.
I don’t get it. Why does Nimrata think she has a chance in hell?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Reposted from below
Looks like His Kevin went to dinner from meeting Biden at the White House to discuss the debt ceiling, after which he left us with this word salad
It wasn’t as coherent live as it looks in print.
What about Ja Rule? What does Ja think?
I’m unclear…who is her constituency?
She has less than a snowball’s chance in Hell. She served as South Carolina’s Gov and thinks that that makes her a national candidate. DeSantis can count on all the non-trumpers voting for him. Haley has no base of voters in the GOP.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
That’s not true. I’m sure Paul Ryan cares about what Paul Ryan thinks. Or his mother lol
Only American citizens should be allowed to vote? You mean, in America or what?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
The most recent thing I remember Nikki Haley saying was that Warnock should be “deported”. Just remember, this woman wasn’t just the South Carolina governor, she was also the US Ambassador to the UN. Let that sink in
If you’re tired of living in interesting times, you’re OK with a day in which the “breaking” news is Nikki Haley announcing for president.
More of the same, please.
This morning’s Electoral-Vote blog had a section on Haley’s potential run.
V and Z, the bloggers at that website, are knowledgeable and level-headed. The level-headedness, in particular, is why I appreciate their blog.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Since this is an OT: Reposting from another thread:
Does it seem like they’re trying to slow walk this so I’ll go away or something? Am I being paranoid lol?
Mike in NC
We’ve lived next door to South Carolina for 15 years now. Nikki Haley has no future in GQP politics. They will never ever vote for a non-white woman for president. Better she should try a lobbying gig on K Street like Paul Ryan.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
She doesn’t strike me as stupid. I suspect she very much knows she’s running for Veep, trump’s, short-trump’s, Cruz’s…. according to certain traditional line of political thinking, the number two on even a losing ticket is “next-in-line”.
Remember when Elizabeth Dole ran for (vice) president and Bob Dole forgot to pretend otherwise and said he was voting for McCain? ETA: google tells me that was in 2000. I”m an old man. Seems like only yesterday she had her staff mark out the steps she would take on stage and said, “We like to be spontaneous!” as she carefully hit her marks.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Dining in the Navy Yard” is just screaming to be used as a euphemism
Huh. If you ask me, the breaking news of the day is that the feds are investigating Santos on the ‘stole donated funds from a dying dog’ case.
I suspect it’s the campaign finance issues that are really going to get him, from both angles – where did the money come from and what did he spend it on? But ‘campaign finance’ seems like a really pallid story, can be spun as ‘making a federal case out of a paperwork issue’, but man, stealing from a dying dog is hard to minimize.
Mike in NC
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: If Trump picks any woman VP candidate it will be election denier KKKari Lake, because they have that in common.
Here are five things to know about her
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
It’s hard to believe Santos is a real person sometimes. He’s like a Captain Planet villain
Paul Ryan that master strategist. (Also a great economic mind he told us.)
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Alison Rose: you mean like “hiking the Appalachian Trail” ?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Mike in NC:
She’s definitely auditioning for it. There was some event she was at recently and she basically dissed her own husband and said she liked Trump more
Wakko Warner perhaps put it most cogently.
Having an information bubble built by a propaganda network is deeply weird. Republicans are absolutely certain that the world has no respect for America under Obama or Biden (or any Democrat), and they highly respect us when Republicans are in charge, despite the fact that this is objectively the opposite of reality. This is partly because right-wing media tells them so nonstop, and partly because they’re the abusive-daddy party and don’t know the difference between being feared and being respected. They’re feared, when they are, for being unpredictable and violent, which is not at all the same thing.
I’m now online at spoutible. Is anyone else there yet?
Searched for , but no hits:
@Mike in NC: They can share makeup.
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Exactly. Not that I wanna imagine either of them in flagrante delicto or anything.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Don’t overthink it.
That they’re telling you they see you as someone being in consideration is a Good Thing. With every interview you’ll become more seasoned with the process, and your name is one the head honchos will recognize as being put forward as a serious contender.
As to the salary and responsibilities, not every rung up the ladder is evenly spaced.
@JoyceH: Man, if it’s the dog thing that finally takes this putz down, I will cackle.
Ryan, like most Republicans, is great at telling other people what they ought to do for the collective good. Collective good is a concept they expressly don’t believe in, so it’s not surprising that none of them line up for that.
The big laugh is that they’re all whispering to reporters that they’re going to sit back and hope TFG drops dead, or that someone else sacrifices themself to take him down, which is exactly what they did in 2016, and look how that turned out.
@2liberal: Not yet. I started to sign up for the beta, but I got stumped on “what are you looking for in a social network?” and never completed it.
It may be hard to tell without critical mass, but how is it? Worth checking out?
David Gregory did that all the time on Meet the Press.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Captain Free Speech takes his twitter account to “protected”
I guess no one told him before he bought it that people on twitter can be mean.
The Trumps stole from a kids’ cancer charity. So there is precedent.
@Mike in NC: And according to TFG, her complexion is too blotchy… unlike the orangutan’s complexion…
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s actually even dumber than that. He’s ‘testing’ the latest right-wing conspiracy theory …about his own company. Guess he fired all of people who could have just given him a definitive answer.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He says he’s doing it to test a twitter algorithm bug that makes you get more engagement on private tweets than on public ones. All the cool conservative kids are doing it.
The thing is, Musk could just find out really easily because has engineers that can test this in a few hours. And I can think of a few technical reasons why it might be the case (basically related to the awful ‘for you’ functionality they’re forcing on everyone). But it’s just Musk being an idiot again.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): No chance TFG will choose a LOSER. Only one LOSER per ticket and he already owns that title.
I would have said the same about Britain, but look at the current PM. Admittedly they didn’t actually vote for him, and he’s only in there because the last few have flamed out so spectacularly.
Great, now you’ve got me matching TFG’s cabinet with the villains. Too many choices for Looten Plunder…
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
remember how the media thought Carly Fiorina was a leading contender for the nomination
We must all stick apart.
David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch
@Ken: Rishi’s current approval rating is 23%
Right now Rishi Sunak’s not exactly crushing it as PM.
@Mallard Filmore: Literally, a party founded upon the belief that there is no such thing as the common good, no such thing as a collective action problem, no such thing as a public good. [with the exception of defense and “public safety” [spit]]
@David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch:
As a former tech journalist, I remembered Carly Fiorina from her stint as a legendarily incompetent CEO of Hewlett-Packard. I was amazed that that was her main credential as a candidate for President.
@Chetan Murthy: I think it’s less that they lack the belief in a common good as they believe it is impossible to distribute that common good equally, and instead want to distribute it in a way that is stable but unequal.
I can’t say that they’re wrong, but I can say all of their decades of efforts at proposing what such a stable social hierarchy would look like have been abject failures while the left at least has consistently made progress toward a common good.
But I still think there is no point of stability possible any longer. Democracy’s ability to act as a check on capitalism is failing. The latter iterated and optimized while the former didn’t and the former is no longer up to the task of checking the latter. Republicans have concluded that protecting capitalism requires jettisoning democracy (fascism) and Democrats are trying to preserve both, but I think capitalism is going to have to be jettisoned to protect democracy (see my comments a few threads back on California’s need for federal changes to water rights for property holders). Maybe not entirely, but substantially. My fear is that Republicans have moved more rapidly toward their perceived stable state than Democrats have, despite the fact that generally the country is moving with Democrats. My main source of optimism is that Republicans are too incompetent to make it over the hurdle and that Democrats possess about ⅔ of the nations money and are too valuable a customer base to piss off too badly – or at least too openly.
I know there’s a lot more to Nikky Haley, but I will forever remember her as the politician who tried to shame a popcorn company for not delivering popcorn to her nephew on time. Like, ambassador to the UN, and that was what got all huffy about.
I think it’s worth a look. It has a twitter like interface but I haven’t seen any of the social media big names yet.
James E Powell
If memory serves, he read one book.
James E Powell
@David ⛄ 🎅The Establishment🎄 🦌 🕎 Koch:
And that Mark Rubio was the savior of the Republican party.
I’m thinking the voters that love Trump aren’t going to go for a woman of South Asian ethnicity.
@Amir Khalid: You can only imagine how us Californian’s felt. We have a lot of respect for the old HP – the Packard foundations still fund a lot of good work around the state. Carly burned a top rate engineering company down and replaced it with a channel partner. My first job here, in a humanities research project was Packard funded. They had a photo in the lobby of David Packard personally delivering the mainframe they first relied on back in the 70s.
Was pretty happy when Apple bought the old HP campus to house their new building.
@James E Powell
Wienermobile For Dummies?
@Ken: I guarantee you, Great Britain will have a Jewish prime minister before we have a female president.
@Ken: The conservative/right wing anglophone world appears to be running on empty. The Tories in Britain are so far out of gas they are chewing up their own voting base to provide fuel, the republicans in the US are showing just how little they actually know or care about policy any more, so much so that even the electorate might notice the current Congress is a shitshow, and in Australia the opposition and its leader are simply ignored at best, when they aren’t still actively hated for the terrible things they did in government.
All this to say, I think we might be making a turn to another less overtly extractive capitalist regime than the one that has prevailed for the last forty years.
In this, I don’t think it possible to overestimate the unbelievably good job Biden and his team has done over the last two years.
I have said it before, but I don’t mind saying it again. Never underestimate the way that bad ideas from the US percolate across both the Pacific and the Atlantic. Having a US administration with a number of very good ideas, competently executed, will make the world of difference over the next decade everywhere in the English speaking world. Biden has been the most consequential President for good, in my lifetime.
Thanks Dark Brandon. 😎
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s less of a “sociological analysis” and more of a quip. We’ve all seen that none of them believe that government can actually help people, and they all believe that selfishness is the highest virtue. And they’re all more-or-less libertarians, too.
I remember a little before the pandemic hit, one of their Federal electeds published an op-ed where he challenged anybody to cite an example of a public good worth having. Claimed there was no such thing.
P.S. OK, sure, the original Republic party wasn’t *founded* on those beliefs. Sorry, my mistake. I should have said “A party centered on ….”
Not surprised to see homeschooling working as designed.
@different-church-lady: Disraeli ?
Long distance call from Benjamin Disraeli on line one.
James E Powell
Nah, Ayn Rand, but I can’t remember which one it was that he had his staff members read. Reportedly.
@James E Powell
It was, I say, it was a joke, son.
(But then, so is Ryan.)
@NotMax: How else do you think I am making this guarantee?
@different-church-lady: Didn’t the Brits already have a sort of Jewish prime minister in the nineteenth century?
You don’t accept his conversion?
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
@Chetan Murthy: No, Perrier please.
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh ha, I didn’t realize he’d converted to Anglicanism.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Don’t overthink it and don’t assume the worst. If it makes you feel any better, it took my daughter’s employer three weeks to get back to her after she interviewed, to the point she was sure they didn’t want her. She’s been at that job for almost 4 years now.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
You’re probably right. I was just expecting that email with the Microsoft Teams link sooner. The virtual interview is supposed to be 10 am Friday and tomorrow is Thursday. Time is running out. I’ll send an email to the recruiter tomorrow morning, but I hate having to always to be the one to follow up (so far). It makes me wonder that if they were really serious about this, they’d get back to me without me prompting them. I really want this to work out because I’m tired of working for peanuts, tired of living with my parents (love em but this is getting old), tired of having the utterly useless UFCW take $8.24 out of paycheck post tax for dues when my take home is typically $350-$400/week, and I want my life to actually start. Having financial independence will help for sure
Nikki sought & received Trump’s approval to run. Trump’s trying to spread the field and win like he did in ’16 with a majority vote of less than 50% of the total in the primary. And Nikki thinks this will get her the Vice Presidency. Nikki hasn’t been paying attention to Trump. He’s chewing her up and is going to spit her out as soon as she loses her flavor, just like gum, once Trump clears the field and the nomination is his. Republicans are so big on believing their wildest dreams that they’re all crazy.
@sab: Yes. Benjamin Disraeli. Although if I’m not mistaken I think he converted at some stage prior to entering Parliament. He faced anti semitism, but he was a very successful Tory Prime Minister, and paved the way for the Tories to be able to electorally contest the newly organising working class in the urban conglomerates of 19th Century UK.
He was very clever in recognising the necessity of traditional conservatives being able to successfully contest at the electoral level.
Of course, being clever was the thing that traditional Tories hated him for. But I am sure they have been grateful since then. 😉
@Martin: If not for the Packards, we might not have the Monterey Bay Aquarium, one of the best places in the state. Heck, in the country!
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Don’t assume any personal reason/animus for why others act the way they do, you have no idea what else they are dealing with in their home/work lives. That attitude has served me very well in life.
Fingers and paws crossed here for you on Friday!
Or they’re just interested in the grift. Grift should always be strongly considered any time a Republican runs for an office they have no obvious chance of winning.
something like social democracy 🙂
Not sure how to convince a very large number of US citizens, that it’s not a dirty word.
@Debbie(Aussie): I think the trick is not to give a program or programs a ‘name’ in the US. Just put forward new entitlement programs, new rights and the like, and let the Right hammer popular ideas.
Then the Dems need to learn the trick of absolutely hammering them back, in terms that are culturally appropriate and accessible to even the dumbest part of the electorate, in a way that exposes the republicans for what they are.
21st Century Fascists.
And I can’t think of her without remembering the Demon Sheep ad.
@Debbie(Aussie): Well, you could exterminate everyone over 55 (I’m 54 now, so please hurry). And men (kinda fucked on that one).
Capitalism has been a complete shit-show for anyone born after about 1990. Those of us who are faring well can thank having bought into the system before 9/11.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Thanks for the advice and well-wishes. I’ll try to stay positive and not overthink it too much
@Martin: Well I wish the US socialists would hurry up.
Unfortunately from what I can glean, a lot of what passes for socialism in the US is nothing more than what the rest of the advanced capitalist world calls either ‘social democracy’ or simply, being a civilised country.
@Martin: Once visited an old guy in West Orange NJ w lots of electronic gear. Had what he said was the 2nd HP signal generator that his friend (Hewlett or Packard) had put together when they were in college. Lots of cool old vacuum tube gear in that house!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Where does that leave people investing in their 401(k)s, 403(b)s, IRAs, etc. with low cost index funds for retirement?
@Aussie Sheila: I think his father converted Benjamin to Christianity as a baby when his father bailed from Judaism when his local synagogue drafted him into an extremely expensive position/office that he did not want.
Every family has such stories. My great great grandmother from Ireland left most of her sons $3 in dimes each (thirty pieces of silver) because they had married protestants (one of those protestants was a Jewish convert to Episcopalian.) My mom was still steaming but I fixed her: my first husband was Jewish and my second was Catholic and she was kind to both of them, and grew to love the second.
@kindness: This actually would explain a lot. Unfortunately for my highest hopes it makes the orange troll out to be smarter than what I was hoping he had become.
I have a lot of respect for the old HP, but it was running into problems long before Carly took over. HP first got into computers because they needed something to run their measurement and testing equipment, and eventually the tail started wagging the dog. The last good thing HP did as a company was to spin off Agilent to carry on that original mission. It’s much closer in spirit to the company Bill and Dave founded and believed in than the company that still bears their name. I say this as someone who grew up in an HP family- my father worked for HP until his part got spun off into Agilent and eventually Avago- and who has used Agilent equipment in my job.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Retirement funds should always be safe. Time makes up for a lot. Compound interest and all that. Losses, on the other hand, are really hard to make up for.
That’s why our new health care system is called Obamacare. The Democrats deliberately didn’t give it a name like Medicare or Social Security, and that left the field open for the Republicans to give it a nickname they thought would hurt it. I don’t think it’s done the trick- people seem generally happy with it regardless of the name- but it shows the limit of that approach.
@sab: ETA Low interest rates usually means safe. People expect to be paid for higher risk.
@sab: Ha! Unbelievable. My mothers maternal family was also from Northern Ireland, and also included Jewish as well as well as Protestant and Catholic members.
My grandmother was a very observant Catholic, married a Protestant, and hated anti semitism. My mother married into a Presbyterian Scottish family, but by then nobody gave a shit. Except everyone knew that anti semitism was the belief of fools and knaves.
@Roger Moore: You are right. People hate Obamacare but they love the ACA (aka Obamacare.)
@Roger Moore: Yes. You are probably right. Give a program a popular name by all means, but not ‘social democracy’ in the US. Everywhere else this would be unexceptionable, but in the US it is best to leave ‘social’ out of the name, and give it the moniker of ‘best US entitlement program in the world’.
That would resonate.
@Aussie Sheila: Religious life in the former colonies is weird but at least sincere, unlike the old country. Turns out Tony Blair (hiss) was a Catholic the whole time in office and couldn’t be bothered to tell anyone since that would have disqualified him from office. He must have had an interesting spiritual life. Explains a lot about him.
@Roger Moore: IIRC Obama was asked what he thought about people referring to the ACA as Obamacare. He said (paraphrasing) “it’s a good thing that people know that I care.”
@Aussie Sheila: I still have Aunt Abby’s (nee Abigail Rothman) amethyst cross, because I had the February birthday. Then I married the Jewish guy. He was a jerk, but his family was lovely.
@sab: Being a Catholic wouldn’t have disqualified Blair from Office unless he was trying to be the King! It is the Monarch that must be Protestant, not the PM.
Blair was bloody awful, but being Catholic wasn’t the problem. He was just an awful striver, like Starmer, trying hard to curry favour from the worst of the UK establishment.
I don’t know what it is with centrist UK Labour Party leaders. They are just uniformly awful. At least with our lot, their Irish roots give them a certain disdain for pretentious nonsense, and often, strong resistance to US pressure. Although on the latter, right wing ALP MPs simply gag for US ‘sensible centrist’ approval. That underlies a lot of intra party conflict in the OZ Labor party.
I also have amethyst jewellery from my grandmother. Not a cross fortunately, but lovely rings and brooches.
@Aussie Sheila: I think you’d be surprised at how open most young people are to leftist ideas. We’ll have to see if the economic left ideas come along with the social left ideas, because my sense is the latter are resonating a bit more.
But when a company that made $14B in profit last quarter lays off 12,000 people because some institutional investor demanded it, that turns a LOT of people off of capitalism. Especially from a company that believes that young people admire them. Google used to be a desirable company to work for, but most young people I’ve talked to lately despise them because of shit like this.
Every economic system is pre-wired to run itself into a ditch. None of them are stable. It’s not that socialism is inherently better or worse, but it’s clearly no longer possible to save capitalism from itself. I mean, the fucking balls on UP to push labor to the point of shutting down the nations rail system only to pump out more profit than they paid to all employees that quarter – wages and benefits.
We need to make stock buyback illegal again – or at least limit it to one of Apple’s policies which is to buy back every share that they grant in stock options, but no more than that. You can buy the company back for the workers, but not for investors.
@Aussie Sheila: I am so glad my ancestors emigrated or were transported ( I have both.)
@Aussie Sheila: UK centrists are uniformly awful, regardless of party. Blair, Clegg, Starmer. Tory wannabees.
USA centrists are at least Democrats desperately trying to hold on in RWNJ districts.
@Martin: I hope you are right. I have been watching the US young moving towards the ‘left’ in a way which is unbelievable to me after 40 years watching the US union movement totter from one disaster to another.
The US union movement was/is very conservative compared to other anglophone countries. I watch with hope that young US people can pick up the very radical early traditions of the US Labor movement, and run with it. The Australian Labor movement was influenced by the US union movement in the early 20th century, but by the mid 20th century the US Labor movement was not much more than a branch of the US State Department.
It was terrible. I had occasion to deal with them in various capacities. They were simply awful. Conservative, racist and ignorant. And convinced that the US was the greatest thing since sliced bread. They had no clue, and their defeat, utterly, at the hands of the US Right wing was no surprise. We have all suffered defeats over the last 40 years, but the US union movement has been a monument to the follies of a ‘loyal’ national movement. It has been truly effed.
@sab: Mine emigrated to Oz. On the Kings shilling. They fought in the British army in India and emigrated to Oz rather than go home to Ireland. Whew! ☺️
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Late to the party, but I was reminded that it took nearly 3 months for a city hiring panel in California to call my husband and offer him the job he’d interviewed for in January. Take heart, sometimes things just move slowly.
@different-church-lady: Already done, see Benjamin Disraeli
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Well, pretty great actually. You seen corporate profits lately?
I’m going to disagree with sab a bit here. I don’t think retirement funds should be too safe starting out, but they should get more safe as you get closer to retirement. Chasing some higher returns when you’re young and in a position to replace any losses (and you need to be diligent enough to do that) can really help a lot. That’s what we did, and several big return investments when we were in our 30s are why I’m retired now.
That’s what a lot of young people going into crypto are angling for, and that’s the wrong approach because it means they didn’t do the work to understand how these economic system work – otherwise they would have avoided crypto. I always treated my investment as a 2nd job and probably put 20 hours a week into research and learning and didn’t do my first investment until I’d done that for about 2-3 years. In 25 years I’ve had two failed investments. And they were each only about $2500. Not great, but recoverable. Every other one has made at least *some* money. But you gotta do the work, don’t get greedy. If you’re getting 10% annually for maybe 5 years, you’re pretty much set.
If that’s not for you, then yeah, take Warren Buffets advice – sink it into the S&P 500 index. That where I put all of our money when I didn’t have a better idea for it – which was most of the time. BTW, if you have cash now, hold onto it until the debt ceiling fight is over. No point risking it over a few weeks return. Who knows what these lunatics are going to do.
@opiejeanne: Yeah, there’s all kinds of issues that can crop up internally. I’ve had to put hiring decisions on pause while we waited for some budget decision, or because some senior position transitioned and they wanted the new person to have input, etc.
It’s shitty, but pretty common. Moreso for things like selecting people for leadership programs since those are even easier to get temporarily derailed. One of your program leaders backs out due to illness or something and you hold off until you can find a replacement, etc. The venue falls through if you have it off-site. God, I so don’t miss that kind of shit.
@Aussie Sheila: Actually, the US union movement in the shape of the Wobblies did more to shape Australian Labor movement traditions than even the conservative UK craft Labor tradition. That is because early Australian labour movement was very much like the US-mining, agriculture and the like. The wobblie tradition in the union movement here underpinned the early Communist Party union activists in Australia, and the failure of the early 1950s attempt to outlaw the Communist Party here, and the very effective unions that were either Communist Party led or influenced has made the Australian union movement much more resilient and effective than the US movement. Much more politically progressive, and much more politically ‘fly’, no matter how bad the immediate circumstances.
I believe the US union movement’s agreement to oust Communists from its leadership in the 1950s had grievous consequences for the US working class for generations. It made it timorous, ineffective and sectional. Simply a death knell for any effective resistance to capital.
@Aussie Sheila: In the US the labor unions only care about their own members, and their nembers only care about themselves. My impression is that elsewhere unions and union members care about all “workers.” Not so in USA, except perhaps SEIU and some of the government workers.
ETA I hadn’t thought about the rejecting “communists” aspect of it. Interesting.
EETA It becomes your patriotic duty to not help anyone but yourself and your family.
@sab: That is partly structural as well as political. In the US bargaining has always been at the ‘shop’ level. We were able to bargain sectorally and across industries until the early 21st century. That is now changing again thanks to our brand new shiny ALP government. I can’t wait to see what a younger generation makes of the opportunities now available. I hope they get cracking soon.
Oh and by the way, they shouldn’t worry too much about the ‘law’. Laws can be changed, directly if necessary.
@Aussie Sheila: How interesting. I had no idea. As always, the devil is in the details.
@Martin: I took the advice you proffered in your second paragraph as I have no desire or ability to research and make good investments. My money is in one of those funds that rebalances as you get closer to retirement age. There is only one stock that I own individually, and I inherited that.
@sab: The problem with organising the US working class is both structural and actual racism, and the political conservatism of its leaders who prefer to kowtow to US official ‘patriotism’ rather than the class interests of its actual and potential constituency.
The racism is a real issue there, but it would be less problematic if US unions were required to be more democratic and less corrupt than they are. But the US ruling class loves corrupt unions. Because they are useless, ineffective and politically neutered. The corruption of US unions was a byword in my time. It was real and simply depressing. Not to say there aren’t corrupt unions here, but the tolerance for that is far less and is despised in the wider movement in a way it never seemed to be when I was dealing with US counterparts in the past.
@Aussie Sheila: I worked in a field (small firm publuc accounting) where unions were not an option because clients would have fled. My husband and stepsons all have worked in fields were unions were an option. They have all worked in union and non-union shops. At no time did they feel that the unions were the least bit interested in either them as local workers, or in workers in general. But they still feel strongly that US unions are much better than nothing
ETA We as a family are rooting for SEIU in its endeavors.
@sab: The best thing the US union movement could do would be to ditch the ‘shop’ approach to organising, and adopt a big sectoral approach to organising in big economically weighty sectors. Logistics and distribution would be my pick. A democratic teamsters union organising Amazon would do more for the contemporary working class than any thing I could think of right now. That fucker needs to be brought to heel, fast.
@Aussie Sheila: YES!
It won’t take my phone number, so I can’t spout off.
I regurely read the reddit for my fellow associates for the Home of the Orange Apron, there is a strong anti-union sentiment, especially in the south. There was recently a union vote in one of the Philly stores, it failed 3-1. Most of the associates are pretty young.
@sab: I get very annoyed about political views that focus on the past. Not talking about you obviously but about the nostalgia for an economy that is gone. Manufacturing may still be important but the contemporary working class across the advanced capitalist countries is indisputably in services. Transport, logistics, food, beverages, banking, finance and retail and real estate.
Unless and until the union movement in English speaking countries find a way to organise the 21st century working class, we will see fascism advancing everywhere. Union organising has always been an essential tool in the arsenal against fascism. Electoral politics is necessary, but not sufficient. In the absence of an organised working class, the ruling class will rule without any effective resistance. A disorganised working class is a class that will be bullied by the ruling class.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I get the disappointment. But small scale, small shop organising is a heart breaker, and if you don’t mind my saying so, useless.
Big targets, big campaigns, big money and a lot of noise. That is the only way to win for the working class as a whole, not just a small group of people, who, however dedicated, can never have the ‘heft’ to move the ruling class. Simply put, the ruling class must learn to fear organised Labor again if working people are every going to make gains socially, economically and politically. I get the romance of a small group of dedicated people, but there is no substitute for going after the mainsprings of the contemporary economy. And that means transport and logistics including and especially, warehousing.
Those effers need to learn old lessons again . They need to be pursued and harassed and organised into the ground. By whatever means necessary.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I think it’s hard to extrapolate on these trends. My kid held out for an employee owned company for his first job. This stuff manifests in different ways. You’ll get a lot of local variance. I’ve heard at least some skepticism from people that the organizing process is so slow. I don’t think any of the unionized Starbucks have a contract yet. That’s a lot of time investment (years) before you get any payback, often in jobs you don’t intend to spend years in.
I think CA’s fast food arrangement is worth watching. It’s less powerful than a worksite union, but with much broader impact, and operates on a calendar. I think it’d be a great model for farmworkers given how hard it is to organize.
@Aussie Sheila: I forgot to add the health and human services. They are vital to contemporary capitalism as well of course, to everyone’s well being. They also tend to be female dominated industries, and their organisation is imperative for the well being of the workers there as well as for the general society.
Organised women will do more for the struggle for reproductive and health care rights of women than any number of well intentioned NGOs .
@Martin: The California scheme is a testament to the weakness of contemporary US unionism. It is better than nothing, but what a disgrace that US unions couldn’t mount a campaign to mandate cross shop bargaining.
@Aussie Sheila: In Australia union membership is a matter of right, not grace and favour. Of course being able to bargain for a good contract is another thing, but the US position where membership has to be ‘won’ is a disgrace. It is a human right, even recognised by the ILO, but not, it seems the US government. Less US exceptionalism and little more US militancy would do the world a democratic favour here. I appreciate the effort on behalf of Ukraine. It is necessary for the Ukrainians and their democratic rights as well as for democracy generally.
But US liberals need to look closer to home to properly analyse the dangers to democracy world wide. Your Right wing is a danger to everyone in the democratic world. You can’t change your Constitution. I get that. But you can organise your working class.
I hate you all for making me defend Haley, but there are some US jurisdictions that are allowing noncitizens to vote in local elections. Not that there’s anything a US president can do about it except tweet.
@Aussie Sheila: There is a good deal of resistance to unions among the workforce, they’re seen by many associates as an outside corporation that they have no control over and that just takes their money(union dues). They do, in many respects, buy into the company’s line of an open door policy by management and “not letting someone who doesn’t know you, and come between you and your management”. The other big concern is that if a store were to unionize, the company would close the store down.
If a large union would enter the picture, they would probably be viewed as just another large entity that just wants to take your money for no gain. They see the costs as immediate and the gains as only a possibility.
I have no idea with this means. Are you talking about the fact that workers must vote to form a union?
Because they can’t be reasoned with.
@Martin: Agreed, you can’t take one failed unionization effort as a sign that it won’t work, however you can take the general attitude among associates resisting unionization(whether misinformed or not) as a indication as to how successful a unionization effort might be. Keep in mind this is a southern based company and many of the associates are in the south.
Yeah, I keep hearing that young people are less likely to be “joiners.” That seems to cut against successful unionization even if young people look more favorably on unions and “socialism” in the abstract.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Effective unionism is a ground up proposition. Organising effectively means finding the leverage that works against management and for solidarity on the shop floor. The attitudes you describe are far from unique. They are common and they represent ruling class effectiveness in anti solidarity propaganda. It has been always thus, everywhere and at all times.
The trick is to pick where the itch is, and get to work. I maintain shop by shop organising is a waste of time, until the biggest and most economically weighty sectors are organised so as to effect the wages and working conditions of smaller enterprises downstream.
Look to your own history. How were the US auto and steel companies organised? Look it up.
It wasn’t a picnic. But it did more to lift the wages and conditions of the US manufacturing working and other sections of the US working class than anything else could have. The much vaunted New Deal would not have amounted to much without the organising efforts of US unions. Many of which were Communist led. Not that anyone is allowed to say that in the many paeans to FDR that still abound. Don’t get me wrong-he was a good President.
But the radical roots of the US Labor movement have been consigned to the grave yard by US liberals. And now, we are all watching Ukraine trying to expel a bunch of oligarchic crooks, rapists and murderers from their country. US liberals have been very bad at recognising the links between their own distaste for radicals, and the upsurge in genuine, homegrown fascism in their own country. My problem is, your fascism could be contagious, in a way Russian versions wouldn’t be here.
@Baud: No they most certainly do not. Union membership is a right. Anyone can join the union that covers their industry/occupation. Just like International Labour Law prescribes. Unbelievable.
I still don’t understand. Workers here can join unions if they exist. It sounds like your saying that there are standing unions for each industrial sector in AUS and each individual worker can choose to join or not join. Is that right?
Your = you’re
@Baud: Yes. Exactly. Unions have coverage of certain sectors/industries and occupations by law and regulation. No one, but no one can prevent a person from joining a union, and dismissal on the grounds of union membership, or union activity is legally prohibited. Not that employers don’t try of course. But the law is directionally tilted to ‘freedom of association’ and attempts to sack on such grounds are usually fruitless. Of course employers try sack and rehire at bargaining time in sectors where unions aren’t strong. But such efforts have failed in the past where unions are strong, and soon will be against the law.
I love a political party that can form government where the union movement has an institutional and structural place in governance.
Sick leave, Parental leave, Domestic violence Leave, Annual leave, overtime pay, minimum hours, and the like are all legislated here. Because unions won those rights and then ensured they were legislated.
For. Everybody. Not. Just. Union. Members.
Dismissal based on union membership is illegal here too, although I think it’s often hard to prove. But while we have large unions, I think are unions are employer based rather than sector based.
“Then everyone commenced to do what they were doing before [s]he turned their head.” – Dylan
@Baud: That right there is the problem. Employers should not the basis for union rights. Being a worker anywhere is the only basis for employee rights. Industries, Sectors and Occupations should be the organising base for unions. Not effing employers for Christ sake.
She is running to expand the field. It will allow Trump to win with 25-30% in primaries.
@Baud: I sympathise with Starbucks workers, but god almighty even if every coffee shop in the US were organised it wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans ☺️.
Unless and until the US Labor movement rediscovers strategic organising that can shift the economic balance of power in key industries and sectors, the US working class is either not voting, or is being organised by the worst, most revanchist, vicious ruling class outside of Russia, and being disrespected into the bargain by some of the political class that ostensibly is supposed to ‘represent’ them.
It is truly dire imo.
@Aussie Sheila: I don’t think that is what Baud is saying, unions may be more oriented to a specific company than an entire sector.
@Greg: I wonder what she was promised in return. Veep?
As far as I know, US unions are hierarchical. You’ll have a local union that’s focused on a specific employer or shop, but then the locals affiliate with regional or national unions, and the national union may involve several industrial sectors. It’s very complicated.
@Baud: That is pretty accurate.
Some countries do allow non citizens the right to vote. When my son was a student in the UK, he was sent a letter to remind him to vote in upcoming elections. I thought there was a war over “no taxation without representation”. So shouldn’t any tax payer be entitled to vote? I know this will never happen in the USA, where even citizens are prevented from voting, but I’m just sayin’.
So retail workers shouldn’t unionize?
I work retail, and one of the arguments against unions is that retail is low skilled and unions only apply to the trades(forgetting the whole history of the CIO).
Mai Naem mobile
The GOP bigwigs might go along with Nikki being Veep because Nikki=Kamala like Palin=Hillary. Does anybody know if Nikki has legally changed her name from Nimrata? I think GOP voters would be influenced by Nimrata on the ballot vs. Nikki because its furrin sounding. Also her Sikh father wears a turban which for GOP voters = taliban terrah-rist. TFG and DeShithead probably already have oppo ads of Nikki with the turban wearing dad.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: A union shouldn’t be oriented to a particular employer. That way lies corruption. Its orientation should be towards employees/workers in a particular industry and/or sector, and a national movement towards organising in the key economic sectors that can influence the whole economy.
A single employer union is called a ‘company’ union where I come from, and is of little use, even or especially, to the employees concerned. Unions exist to ensue their members can decommodify as much of the labour market as possible, and as an aide to the democratisation of the workplace by and for, the workers themselves. Not to help employers or even a small group of favoured employees. Go big, or unionisation is little more than a decorative conceit, useful as an adornment to claims of ‘democracy’ but changing little or nothing in the balance of economic and social forces.
You made me look.
Surprised Ireland is still there.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Of course they should. But if you do it ‘shop by shop’ we will be dead before anything changes.
@Sally: I don’t think non citizens should be allowed to vote. Of course becoming a citizen should be easy, and voting should be easy and accessible for everyone. Allowing non citizens a vote disrespects those who have taken up citizenship, and ‘discounts’ the rights and benefits of citizenship in a polity as a whole. It is a very bad idea.
@Aussie Sheila: I tend to agree that if employees of say The Home of the Orange Apron want to unionize, they should affiliate with a larger union. The union that represents grocery stores(UFCW, see Goku above) has a pretty bad reputation and is actually what some point to against unionization.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I get it. The union representing retail workers here is pretty bad as well. Very conservative, Catholic union, wildly out of touch with its own members, and does contracts that are terrible. Nevertheless, retail workers benefit from the union as a whole, because it carries heft and weight politically, and as a result is part of the money and power that elects Labor governments at state and federal levels that benefit workers generally.
The big retail employers know that if they fuck the union over too much, a government will eventually be elected that will simply legislate what the union couldn’t win at the workplace. Win Win.
One of my favorite running bits on the Well There’s Your Problem podcast is the poking at labor organizing in the US where every fucking subclass of worker needs to have their own union, so Home Depot would have the International Brotherhood of Plumbing Isle Workers, the Gardening Isle International Union, the United Lumber Isle Workers, and the American Federation of Appliance Sales. You have 7 employees in a Starbucks and they form 7 different unions.
There’s no real solidarity among workers. It’s just white people squaring off against black people, but with job titles instead.
One coda. Even putting aside police unions, there are way too many Republican supporting unions.
@Martin: Yes that is the basis for the real structural problem with US union organisation. It is ludicrous that the auto workers organise in higher Ed for example as well as other sectors far away from auto manufacturing. US unions will have to work out a much better approach to coverage issues because it is the Achilles heel of the US union movement, and permits employer meddling to a ruinous degree. Coverage here is regulated via general labour legislation and while coverage disputes still exist, they are pretty well non existent now.
@Aussie Sheila: So what of permanent residents and folks on refugee visas? States generally don’t care about citizenship, just residency. Do those people not get a say in who runs their school district? We have a LOT of communities here where 90% of parents in the district aren’t citizens. That’s a hell of a minority rule if 10 or so white residents (probably cops and business owners) have that kind of say over the almost certain rest of the community of people of color.
I get where you’re coming from, but we have almost as many permanent residents as Australia has people. Citizenship takes decades. Your kid can go from birth (as a US citizen) to voting themselves before you as a parent get any vote in how your community is run. Granted, the correct solution is to fix the immigration process so it doesn’t take decades, but I think voting should be tiered. We get way more citizens blowing through town with no real attachment to local politics than we do non-citizens who have set up roots here, but can’t get the feds to get their shit together.
Put another way, it’s very dangerous to have a underclass of that size with no opportunity to participate democratically. You’re just begging for them to be abused, and that’s what happens. I’m okay with them not voting for federal elections – that’s citizenship. But residency alone should grant you the ability to vote at the state and local level.
@Aussie Sheila: See, I go the other way. One union. That union fights for all workers. No dividing them up and pitting them against each other which happens all the fucking time in the US. I watched it at work – we had over 20 unions at the university, and even in that relatively labor friendly place you had the administrative workers pitted against the nurses. And if you had two closely adjoining unions where jobs might shift from one to another – holy shit. You know how hard I had to fight our administrative union to allow me to promote my staff to *much* higher paid positions that were outside of their union? It took me over a year to get one employee promoted.
A million fiefdoms is great for management. If the unions are fighting each other, they aren’t fighting you.
One union means thorny issues of union democracy and management.
@Baud: That is because they don’t have a ‘class’ or if you prefer a ‘worker’ orientation, and rely on deals with conservative governments and employers. Big, well funded industry and sectoral unions, democratically organised and run, will still have many conservative members, but quantity will make for quality in the long run.
I know from conservative union members. They never fazed me. The union either delivered or it didn’t. When it did, being conservative at an individual level mattered little, since there was plenty of room to agitate as well as organise around general political and social matters.
If the union wouldn’t or couldn’t deliver, the political orientation of the members matter little. They either overthrow the leadership, or they leave the union. Simple.
As a proud member of the American Federation of Order Fulfillment Associates, those Appliance folk are the laziest folk on earth.
How can you have a union if nobody wants to work anymore?
@Qrop Non Sequitur: There are a few places (I think) where non-citizens are allowed to vote in local elections. I think this is fine but it really gets conservatives’ blood up.
@Martin: I think this is a very well stated case. And it still goes back to taxation with out representation. If green card holders, permanent residents, etc, live, work, send their kids to school, are subject to the laws and conditions of the country, and pay taxes in the country, should they have a say in how they are governed? I don’t think it is a matter of “couldn’t be bothered”, but is it a human right to have a vote on the laws and society one is subject to? Or should these people, who contribute significantly to society, be disenfranchised?
Do the conservatives in AUS take on unionism though? They do in the US.
Probably the better solution is to make it easier for those types of people to become citizens.
@Martin: I agree it is dangerous to have a disenfranchised underclass. Very dangerous. But the way through is to speed up and simplify citizenship, every time. A large, non citizen voting block is a recipe for big trouble. Not from the non citizens, but from those who can pit citizens against them to a very dangerous degree.
As for taxation, many non citizens who have no intention of staying in a country pay taxes, as they should. No taxation without representation is a ludicrous proposition. What about multi national corporations? They should be taxed till the pips squeak, and they shouldn’t get a vote or a say in any sane polity.
Refugees and immigrants should be able to achieve citizenship easily and without hindrance. Until they do, they shouldn’t have a right to vote.
@Baud: Yes of course they do. But the movement here can take them on both industrially and politically. Politically is very important because that way union friendly laws can be passed that stymie their little games. The difference here is that the union movement has institutional and organisational power within the Australian Labor Party that is unlike the US Democratic Party. Here, it gets a guarantee of formal votes at Party Conferences, and has a very big influence on policy and who gets to be pre selected for Parliament.
It makes a big difference in the nature and temperament of anti conservative politics.
Less cultural hysteria, and more grounded and thoughtful approaches to policy and personnel.
It wasn’t JUST that the dog was dying. It was service dog given to a homeless veteran, and the dog helped the vet move towards a healing life.
Santos is pretty clearly a sociopath, which I know is almost a prerequisite these days for being an elected Republican, or a CEO, but this is special.
And think about the people who work closely with Santos, who actually KNOW that this is what this shitstain is all about. In many respects, they are worse than he is.
So can a union participate in Labor governance but then support conservative candidates for office?
@Chief Oshkosh: He is the perfect avatar for the Republican Party. Every bit of his sordid story should be shouted from the rooftops everywhere. The US Dems should make him the poster child of every dumb fascist in the Republican Party, and his links to crime in NY should be chased up. Maybe this time the NY Dems might like to do some sleuthing!
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: The Maytag repairmen are the worst–I saw one of those guys on TV! They don’t want to work at all!
I’m sure the Republican base will warmly welcome a non-white, female, daughter of immigrants. Look at how supportive and friendly they are with VP Harris. Oh wait.
During Carly Fiorina’s presidential run I remember some talking head claiming her real strength was the support of the tech industry. Meanwhile everyone I spoke to in the tech industry was scornful after her HP fiasco.
Bernie Sanders had a youth movement going for a while there, and his form of leftism was primarily economic, with perhaps excessive disdain for the cultural stuff. But I guess that was more Millennial than Gen Z, and to some extent a reaction to the Great Recession.
My impression is that open revolutionary Marxism with an outright desire to guillotine the capitalists, with dreams of some kind of Star Trek: The Next Generation fully automated post-scarcity future ensuing, is far, far more popular among the youngest Americans. I haven’t figured out yet the extent to which this is a good thing.
Hatred of home printers is universal and bipartisan.
@Baud: No. It can’t . Individual members of course vote conservative, but if you are a member of the ALP, and work for or towards the defeat of a Labor candidate, you will be expelled. There have been unions whose orientation has been very conservative, but their effects are on policy, not on parliamentary votes. You vote against the Party in Parliament (unless the vote has been deemed a ‘conscience vote’) and you are out on your arse. No more preselection for you, and no caucus vote either.
As it should be. I can’t stand ‘individual rights’ when it comes to Parliamentary votes. It is inherently undemocratic.
Hold your horses. Are you intimating the talking heads skim the surface, parrot talking points and eschew research?
// // // //
Not anxiously awaiting formation of the Union of Entitled Billionaires, LLC.
@Aussie Sheila: One unionizing effort that interests me is the Teamsters push to organize Amazon. Their convention a year and a half ago voted to to make this a major priority, and the strategy was to start in Canada and work south.
I got sucked in to the midterms and lost track, but as of last summer they were in the process of organising several Ontario fufillment centers including related deivers. One advantage they have is that UPS is already organized by the Teamsters and Amazon drivers know this and can see for themselves how a successful company and union can prosper together. Also, while Amazon is powerful because of its size and central direction, so are the Teamsters.
The Teamsters are also one of the many unions that supported Joe Biden in 2020. Their Amazon effort will be worth watching.
You make the point for me. Sunak is the exception that proves the rule. The Party’s MPs knew he’d never win a leadership election because of their membership’s rabid racism, so they just appointed him themselves.
It’s one of the reasons he’s such a weak PM. Outside of the megacorps and billionaire donors who trust him to be an obedient puppet he’s got zero constituency. He can’t threaten, can’t cajole, can’t punish. He’s just… there.
In German, the abbreviation for that union is GOP.
@Baud: Ohio just passed a statewide referendum forbidding municipalities from allowing non-citizens to vote. This was a referendum, not passed through the legislature.
That’s not been my experience with IBEW, so YMMV.
Not surprised. I doubt it’s a very popular position.
For some reason, I was reminded of a scene from the Matt Smith Doctor Who:
House/Rethugs : Fear me! I’ve killed hundreds of Time Lords!
The Doctor/Dems/Biden : Fear me. I’ve killed all of them.
@Geminid: Yes I agree. I referenced that effort above. Organising Amazon would the single biggest boost for the US, indeed, the international working class movement in this century.
Big target. Check
Big economic effect downstream. Check
Big effect on the billionaire class. Check
It will take big bucks and a lot of work, but it is the ideal target in a service economy. I don’t know how they are going, and I don’t think anyone outside the effort should know too much. But I note that UK Amazon workers are starting to organise, and I expect there will be some headway there before too long.
It is the US Steel of the 21st century.
@Tony Jay: He’s the ideal Oppo for a leader like Starmer isn’t he.
He is weak, no real constituency, and because of his ethnic background, Starmer is able to shamefully dog whistle about refugees, ‘home grown’ health workers and the like to his hearts content.
God Starmer is awful.
And, taking a page from the Florida fascist lege playbook, the Ohio lege said “Hold my beer,” and passed one forbidding non-whites from voting.
@Aussie Sheila: One of the other problems with unionization here in the US is conservatives don’t want thier union dues to support Democrats. Of course, they don’t actually have to pay union dues to be represented by the union, so it creates a free rider problem.
As another commenter recently noted, Walmart employs more people than does Amazon.
¿Por qué no los dos?
@SFAW: Huh? Are you kidding me? How is that even legal!
It was snark.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@James E Powell: Whereas Trump took one look at her and thought obviously she belonged at the UN
@Aussie Sheila: I think Amazon would be much better off in the long run if it were unionized, at least if its competitors were in the same boat. Worker wages in general would rise, the middle class in turn would prosper, and people would have more money to buy stuff from Amazon.
A stronger tax base for governments at all levels would be another plus.
And the wealthy would benefit as well. Although down at the country club they’d be griping plenty about the higher costs of getting their hollies trimmed and their houses painted, when they weren’t bragging on how their stock portfolios have jumped in value.
I think one of the biggest drags generally on our political system is the widespread belief that the economy is a zero-sum game. It’s not, and a prosperous working class would solve many different problems that people acknowledge but don’t know how to fix.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Of course they would say that, wouldn’t they. But there are plenty of unions here that aren’t affiliated to the ALP. I have been an activist and paid organiser in both types of unions. Trust me, the non affiliated unions play a very big role in anti conservative politics.
Even if the rules prohibit direct financial contributions to political parties, the electoral and educational organising of such unions is an invaluable asset to anti conservative politics.
It drives conservatives mad. They know that every union organiser, from an affiliated or non ALP affiliated union, hates their guts. And spends every spare hour working for their electoral defeat. Every.Spare. Hour. Non stop.
@NotMax: Indeed. But organising stores is harder than warehouses. Trust me. I know.
According to his Stans on the FTF Guardian comment pages, ‘God Starmer’ is His actual given name and the title by which He must always be referred*. Anything short of this is “Helping the Tories” and brooks no further discussion.
These being the very same people who spent five long years accusing mainstream Labour members of being cultish loons in language that could have been (and probably was) copy-pasted from wingnut screeds about ‘Obama the Messiah’.
* Right up until he’s served his purpose and has to be shunted aside to make way for a ‘real’ acolyte of the Church of St Anthony the Unjustly Ousted, at which point they’ll shift effortlessly into “Starmer? Never trusted him. He served under that Corbyn fellow” territory and never look back.
@Geminid: I agree with you in your general point about the economics. But I don’t care. Unless and until the organised working class can find a way to bring the modern 21st century employer behemoths to heel, nothing will ever change. Power concedes nothing. They will have to be organised and bargained till they squeal and give up. It is not just economics, important as that is. It is a glaring democratic deficit that has to be met.
The failure to organise the 21st century working class is a recipe for fascism at worst,authoritarian government at best.
It has to happen.
@Aussie Sheila: If Amazon is successfully organized, I could see a second wave of organizing that might succeed with Walmart. But as you say, Amazon is the better target now for good reasons.
@Tony Jay: Yes I have noticed. However the current strike wave is a very good sign, Mick Lynch et al look to being a very effective opposition. The best to hope for in the event of a Labour Party win would be reform of the voting to proportional or preferential voting like we have. That way a more radical Party could grow to the left of the Labour Party and grab a few seats in big urban areas. Could make a big difference.
Apart from his execrable dog whistling, I can’t stand his wheedling adenoidal speaking style. He makes me squirm.
@Geminid: Yes. Retail is downstream from warehousing and transport. Tie up the distribution nodes and you have them by the short and curlies. Everywhere.
Wow, this is the most thorough and thoughtful discussion I’ve seen here in a long time. Good job folks!
@Aussie Sheila: I mean Starmer, not Mick Lynch, who I love, even if he voted Brexit. Can’t have everything I suppose.😎
I’m a Teamster, and I object to that characterization. Does a union prioritize it’s members over non-members? Of course, because membership has privileges, and the whole theory of union-busting in this country is to try and an ensure that non-members get everything that the members get so that enough people will leave and eliminate the union. Immediately, benefits will be reduced for all, since there will no longer be a union to stand up for them.
But my union and many many others are thinking about how to help all workers. It’s why we constantly push for things like Prevailing Wage Agreements and more.
Do our members only think about themselves? Hardly. Sit in bargaining with us sometime and make that argument. Come to our Meet & Confer with management and make that argument. Because you’ll look like a damn fool.
We’re not perfect. We struggle to attract younger members, in part because when wages have been flat people don’t want to pay the dues, or because a lot of our gains were longer ago and we spend more of our time defending what we’ve won, so people don’t see the benefits as clearly. We still have members and leaders who have not adapted to the times and use language that isn’t ok. But we’re still trying, and we’re one of the only people that stands up for workers against management structures that: want to be able to fire anyone at any time for no reason with no notice, cut benefits at every turn, never pay people what they deserve, and not value their work.
@Aussie Sheila: The “zero sum game” misconception matters politically because a lot of middle and upper middle class voters believe in it. If they inderstood it wasn’t true I think some of their conservative voting patterns would change.
Even those already voting Democratic would understand better the importance of their party supporting the working class. I think many middle and upper middle clsss Democrats see this only in the abstract and not in practical terms. And like it or not, in many areas including my own, it’s the middle class and professional class who run the party. That will change slowly, but if these folks really understand how their economic interests and those of the working class are consistent this would change a lot faster.
@Geminid: I understand your point and agree with you. However the working class must organise itself. Self organisation is the key to emancipation. The middle and upper middle class will respect and value the working class when that class becomes a political and economic force in and for itself. Not for any other reason.
Democracy depends on it. Do you think the US could have mounted the WW2 effort in the absence of the active cooperation of the US working class? I don’t.
@JML: I support you and agree with you. A democratic and militant Teamsters Union is key to the resurrection of decent working class politics in the US. Bar none.
All power to you and your comrades. If I was younger, I would be high tailing it to Canada or the US to be part of organising Amazon. I hate those arseholes with a passion.
@Sally: A wider franchise is supported by many reasons of principle. As a matter of practical national politics, it’s a losing issue. That is why Nikki Haley is trying to spin a relative few local initiatives into a conservative boogyman. Democrats will wisely not fight this battle on her terms.
@Geminid: Zero sum is not limited to the middle class, working class folk believe it too, that’s why they’re Republicans.
Oh, the StarmerStans hate Lynch too, and keep trying to leverage his pre-Brexit stupidity into anti-Union sentiment, because obviously if a current Union leader backed Brexit then ALL Unions are pro-Brexit = Tory = support for them is hypocritical. Or something like that, their 24/7 air-horn style of terribly focus-grouped faux-outrage got boring early in 2017 and hasn’t aged well.
The fact that the Nu-Lab Centeristas never fail to jump to the defence of 1990’s Tory policies and the people promoting them tells you more about their ideological leanings that any amount of scripted twatwaffle.
I can’t see them ever supporting any changes in the voting system for that very reason. First Past the Post guarantees either a Tory or Nu-Lab Government into perpetuity, while PR would give the vast majority of genuine Labour members and activists somewhere to go that didn’t stink of long rotted Blairism, and they can’t have that.
It’s probably not legal, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t try.
I was sort-of riffing on what the FL lege did a few years ago: after 65 percent of the state’s voters approved a FL constitutional amendment restoring voting rights to felons, the lege passed laws preventing that from taking effect, which DeathSantis happily signed. They — and I might be messing up some details, but you’ll get the gist — subsequently passed laws making it a crime to register to vote if you (i.e., a felon who had served his/her time) had not paid off various court- and prison-related costs. Of course, Florida was pretty-much unable (or refusing) to say how much those costs were for any individual released felon. Which led to DeathSatan’s latter-day SS/Gestapo arresting people who innocently tried to register/vote. Strangely, all those arrested seemed to be Black. What a coincidence.
If I have any key details worng, I’m hoping Betty (or another Florida denizen) will correct me.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: A very good point.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: That is true of people generally unless they are able to think their way out of it. Unorganised by decent, democratic unions, they are organised by a popular culture that is indecent in its contempt for them and the work they do.
Only organisation around issues that draw people together can break through the organisation that every day life imposes on us all.
What do Newfoundland and Labrador have to do with politics in Old Blighty? They’re in Canadiastan.
@Tony Jay: Yes I gather it will be a stretch with the unreconstructed nu-labour bots. However I understand electoral and voting reform is very widely supported within the Party, and I would spend a good deal of time agitating for it if it were me.
The Blairites are certainly awful, but I can’t believe an internal Party campaign couldn’t force reform through. Do the affiliated unions support it?
Aussies being upside-down (relative to Real People, i.e., ‘Muricans), they have a harder time detecting snark. And I’m not smart enough to code in an upside-down font to make it easier for them.
@SFAW: I remember now. That was truly terrible wasn’t it. God I hope the Dems hang on the Senate in 2024, and win back the Reps. Electoral reform should have been the number one issue in the last term.
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA: But on a different subject, I have a request.Your night sky photography is stellar! You have also favored us with some really nice photos of California’s beautiful mountains, hills and valleys. I hear that the desert wildflowers are exceptionally abundent and beautiful after a winter of heavy rain, and I’m hoping you might capture this for those of us too far away to see it in person.
Unfortunately, there were so many “number one” issues, due to Rethug fuckery. [No, not snarking — there were so many things that needed to be addressed, and so many of those could have been at the top of the Dem list to fix.]
@Omnes Omnibus: See Thatcher, Margaret, “There is no such thing as society.”
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Never ascribe to maliciousness or ennui what can be explained by incompetence.
@Geminid: I’ll give it a shot, time permitting(time away from my labors at the Home), I shot the poppy bloom several years ago. Was magical.
Right now, it seems like US conservatives have nothing but boogeymen. They are coming for your guns, your gas stoves, teachers want to teach your children CRT, teachers are pedophiles, your cartoon M&Ms, they are trying to force you to take life-saving vaccines, they want drag queens and taco trucks on every corner. Okay, I actually am in favor of taco trucks on every corner because tacos are delicious.
One of the strongest boogeymen is that “the other” is coming to take your place. The other could be trans people. Could be people of color. But to the MAGAts, the other is definitely non-white immigrants, legal or otherwise. There is a reason “Build the wall” was such a popular slogan for Trump.
Being against non-citizens voting combines this xenophobia with the Big Lie. They are convinced Democrats cheat on elections and letting non-citizens vote seems like cheating to them. How often have you heard a MAGAt claim the Dems are encouraging (illegal) immigration as a way to stack demographics against conservatives? IOW, cheating.
Haley pushing this issue is a way for her to be one of the good immigrants. She can’t deny her parents immigrated, but they did it the right way. She’s apple pie and baseball, not one of THOSE immigrants.
I’m sure the thread is dead, but I just have to see this again.
Steve in the ATL
Can’t believe I missed a lengthy discussion of unions! I should have known better than to get some sleep….
@Steve in the ATL: Are you a bosses’ lawyer? ‘Cause if so, I’m glad we missed each other. I hate bosses lawyers, with a passion.
Dishonest, disgraceful arseholes.
If not I apologise.
They focus grouped it. Turns out everyone likes seafood and big yellow dogs.
The Unions opposed it last time it came up for discussion, but I hear they’re slowly coming around to the realisation that this iteration of Nu-Lab is so vitriolically opposed to anything that might offend the sensibilities of the Daily Mail reading set that they might as well be circa-2010 Tories. Cutting them lose and hoping a reformed electoral system produces a genuine left wing coalition of Parties they can count on is looking more attractive by the day.
J R in WV
Back when Carly’s HP was doing a takeover of Compaq my RWNJ Bro worked in tech PR for Compaq and after the buy-out was a done deal worked hard to get Compaq employees to accept their new
ownershipManagement. He was honored along with other management staff at a dinner, and literally got patted on his back by Carly.
Then she laid him off just a couple of weeks later, the end of his Hi-tech Mgt career.
J R in WV
Steve in the ATL
Guess I won’t be using you as a character reference after all!
Paul in KY
@Alison Rose: ‘Going down on someone in a Navy uniform’.
Paul in KY
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): He’s like if Mudd from Star Trek managed to con his way into a House seat.
Paul in KY
@Mai Naem mobile: I think she legally changed it to ‘Nikki’. Just one ‘k’ away from being a shoe-in for the nom…
Paul in KY
@Baud: One union to rule them all, one union to find them, one union to bring them all and with the dues bind them. Buwahahahaha.
@Geminid: I realise you probably won’t read this by now, but I also realise that my passion for universal (adult) franchise is not widely shared. Though I think it could be if leaders advocated for it and explained the common sense of it. I also believe that no citizen of a country should ever be disenfranchised. Felons, for example, would not have to have their voting rights restored, as they would never have lost them. But then, I also believe in the unpopular “compulsory” voting, which I also think could be popular if we had leaders who explained the common sense of that too. The higher the voting turnout, the less likely that extremists will be elected. One example was the Brexit referendum. It was widely reported at the time that too many Remainers, particularly the young, didn’t bother to vote because the outcome would be a clear rejection of Leave. As it wast the result was pretty close, and a small increase in turnout would have swung the result. This is also true for Democrats in so many US elections. The amount of money, time and energy spent on turnout in the US is painful. Anyway …. lost causes!
@Sally: Well, as it turns out I did read your comment. Like I said, there are good reasons of principle to support a wider franchise
I still think it’s bad practical politics. Even if a small amount of new voters could potentially turn a few close elections, it would be handing Republicans an issue that would probably cost many more votes than it gained. Haley knows what she’s doing when she brings it up. There are many issues that Democrats should press regardless of Republican opposition but this is not one of them, in my opinion.
@Geminid: Yes I know, and I agree with you that it is bad electoral politics. Sadly.