About 10 days ago in Dunedin, Florida, a couple was watching TV in their home when the woman heard a noise outside on the pool deck, peeked through the blinds and saw a man she didn’t recognize a few feet away from the sliding glass door. She called 911. (Source: Tampa Bay Times)
Meanwhile, her husband armed himself and yelled at the dude to go away, but the “intruder” had gone to his truck for a flashlight and didn’t hear the order to leave. When the man who had been poolside came back into the yard with a flashlight, the husband, 57-year-old Bradley Hocevar, opened fire through his own sliding glass door with an AR-15.
It turns out the person he shot at was a pool cleaner whom the idiotic gunowners had hired. Luckily for everyone, Hocevar is a really terrible shot and didn’t hit the pool guy, even though he emptied the 30-round clip or magazine or whatever the fuck that fucking thing is called. The pool guy was hit with shrapnel and flying glass but no bullets. Fortunately, none of the 30 rounds fired hit anyone else either, which might be kind of a miracle in a densely populated area.
It was all perfectly legal. The local sheriff said, “There was no crime committed. This is one of those situations we call lawful but awful.” The sheriff also said the pool guy should have alerted the couple that he would be swinging by after dark.
Well, yeah, he definitely should have done that. Jesus. I hope the sheriff also told that goddamn trigger-happy moron homeowner not to reenact the cinematic climax of fucking Scarface if he sees someone in his yard with a flashlight.
This state has gone absolutely fucking crazy. The end.
Open thread.
piratedan
but he was ARMED!!!! with a LIGHT STICK!!!!!!!!! he could have stolen their pool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alison Rose
Yes, a very heinous crime punishable by attempted murder.
I fucking hate guns and I fucking hate people who love them.
Mike in NC
Just another day in the Gunshine State. Damn pool cleaner was probably woke, too!
Old School
Well, I’ll bet the pool didn’t cleaned, so there were some consequences.
O. Felix Culpa
So, is the pool cleaner going to continue working for this guy?
Llelldorin
@Mike in NC:
After being the target of 30 AR rounds, I’m not sure that I’d ever sleep again.
Baud
At least he has to pay for a new door.
West of the Rockies
@O. Felix Culpa:
One would hope not.
Goddamned terrified conservatives.
trollhattan
Were any SNAILS near the pool?
mrmoshpotato
@piratedan:
Yoink!
Even easier if it’s in-ground!
trollhattan
@Baud: Wonder how the claims adjuster is handling it?
“It is too an Act of God! God’s Second Commandment.”
Suzanne
Do they not have a reckless endangerment statute in Crazytown?!?!
mrmoshpotato
@O. Felix Culpa:
I hope not! And hopefully Trigger-happy McAsshole gets a call saying find a new cleaning company.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Why do you hate America, Sweet Baby Jesus and the Troops(Peace Be Unto Them), Betty?
Why, if that pool cleaner had been killed, Jesus will make it all better and provide succor to him and his bereaved family in the afterlife. Sheriff knows that and knows why, which is why none of it is a big deal in his eyes.
Tony Jay
@Suzanne:
Sure. The pool cleaner recklessly endangered the sliding glass door by forcing the Man in the Low Castle to stand his ground through it, so he’ll be sued for cost of replacement and the emotional distress his potential attempted home-invasion caused these nice, white folks.
I’m presuming the pool cleaner is of an aggressively dusky hue? Like all vicious and unpredictable criminals?
RepubAnon
I’m having a hard time seeing how even a “stand your ground” law lets people gun down anyone entering their property.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
And I’ll add – Stand Your Ground is working exactly the way it was designed and expected by providing a powerful disincentive for law enforcement to go after even obvious and apparent fuckups.
Thinking that attendees at NRA and GOA conventions may provide enough of a threat that they need to be “stood ground” against if they are held in states like Florida.
Cameron
I think some perspective is needed. It’s not like the homeowner told a bunch of schoolchildren that Rosa Parks was black, or something equally vile.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@mrmoshpotato:
In a just world, every pool cleaning company in the community gives him a big fat “nope” not only on service, but also embargoes him on chemical supplies and equipment.
Let him fill the fucker in, if he can find anybody willing to sell him clean fill.
Roger Moore
@Suzanne:
They have the castle doctrine, which says homeowners are allowed to use lethal force to defend their homes.
trollhattan
@mrmoshpotato: Wait ’til he tries to collect for that exciting first cleaning.
Scout211
Hey, Hey. Guns go off, people are wounded, people die, sliding doors are killed, things happen, who coodanode, nothing can be done, it’s just how it is, it was just an accident, he was a good person, it wasn’t his intention, no one could have predicted . . .
OMFG
Ksmiami
Leave. Seriously- the state is unlivable.
schrodingers_cat
OT: Thanks guys for all your responses to the post last night. For my next post do you want me to focus the recent past or the genesis of the problem, which I would start with the various strands of national identity that begin to form as a response to the rule by the British Crown in the late 19th century.
BTW there are a lot of links between colonial America and India’s colonial past. Many of the same people populate it like for example Lord Cornwallis.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan:
Bill sent by mail. Or maybe email would be better so this nutjob doesn’t try to shoot the mail carrier.
UncleEbeneezer
Scout211
I would love for my sister and BIL to move here to California from Orlando but they love it there. He grew up there and she has been there for 40 years. There are still good people there and they have high hopes that the pendulum will swing back to a more normal state legislature and administration.
I’m not sure they will live long enough for the pendulum to swing back, but they will never move.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Genesis of the problem. (Maybe even your view of the cultural/geographical factors and basic history.)
But however you would prefer to handle it is great.
I didn’t comment because at this point I just need to learn up.
Betty Cracker
Y’all might have heard a story out of Ocala, Florida a few weeks ago where a deranged racist woman shot and killed a mother through her (the self-confessed racist’s) door when the mother knocked to confront the racist creep for calling her kids the n-word and throwing stuff at them? The cops arrested that shooter for manslaughter after days of protests, but I don’t see how the state will make the charge stick if this interpretation of SYG prevails at trial. It seems to be applied arbitrarily.
PaulWartenberg
Stand Your Ground law is essentially a license to kill. I can still remember that one guy who shot and killed another movie-goer who dared throw POPCORN at him, and the shooter was acquitted by the jury because of the SYG rule. Gods.
The gun nuts have a right to shoot anybody they want, while the ones who pay the price in blood is everyone else.
Another Scott
I’m sure they could find a way to make the Culpable Negligence stuff apply if they wanted:
The term “culpable negligence” refers to the omission to do something which a reasonably careful person would do, or the lack of the usual ordinary care and caution in the performance of an act usually and ordinarily exercised by a person under similar circumstances and conditions.
IANAL and may be missing something (like a footnote that says the law doesn’t apply to white guys with AR-15s)…
Cheers,
Scott.
leeleeFL
In “The Gunshine State” (thanks Mike in NC, soooo keeping that!). you can shoot at anything or anyone on your property because you feel “threatened”! It makes me ill, as well as far more cautious with those I engage with. I’m old, but I don’t want to die stupid!
boatboy_srq
Apparently, it’s not merely the living*, but life itself that’s cheap in DeathSantis’ Floriduh.
* Cost of living in FL is both ridiculous and underestimated, but that doesn’t stop propagandists presenting the state as an affordable place to live/retire.
Elizabelle
Lawful but awful.
That’s on its way to the being the Florida (Man) state motto.
I wish tourists would stay away from the state, en masse. Money is the only thing that talks to those motherfs.
randy khan
In a sane universe, firing a full magazine through your own sliding glass door would at least be reckless endangerment, given the potential to hit passers-by.
PaulWartenberg
@Ksmiami:
I hear that response often “Just leave,” especially for women suffering the Red State anti-abortion laws, but honestly it costs money to move, people need to have good jobs ready to hire them as soon as they get there, stuff like that. I’d love to leave Florida – I have friends near Chicago, I have family in the DC area, I could risk relocation to Colorado just to see what it’s like out there – but I can’t afford to go.
Doc Sardonic
@Suzanne: No…….Our Stand Your Ground law pretty much negates reckless endangerment, as long as you can remember this simple phrase…..I was in mortal fear for my life.
hueyplong
Come on, libtards, everyone knows the penalty for unannounced, post-sundown pool cleaning is death.
The only lesson that will be learned from this is that the homeowner needs to go to the range more often.
Suzanne
@Roger Moore: I thought it was established that your yard is not your house.
Alison Rose
@RepubAnon: Hell, there was a case (probably many, but the one I’m thinking of John Oliver covered) in Texas soon after they passed the SYG law, where a dude shot and killed two people who he thought might have been breaking into his NEIGHBOR’S house. He was on the phone with 911 and the dispatcher kept telling him not to go out there, not to do anything, cops were on their way…and the old fuck still went outside and shot the people in their backs. And then he was lauded as a damn hero on Fox.
Dangerman
30 rounds and hit air? Please tell me he is not in Law Enforcement.
/ron white
gwangung
@Betty Cracker: And it’s manslaughter only. “Not enough evidence” for a murder charge, according to the prosecutor.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Holy fucking shit – looking at the Facebook comments on the Pinellas Sheriff’s announcement and the Tampa Bay Times, and it looks like the panty-wetting, trembling, terrified-at-everything, entitled older white Floridiots are out in force.
Makes me want to shut down both Social Security AND Medicare, just so they can die the fuck off.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Suzanne: Probably not for white people. If the shooter was a POC, I imagine they’d be in pre-trial detention by now with no bail.
sdhays
How many state legislators need to be legally shot by their neighbors under the SYG statute before they revisit this license to kill (while white)?
Tony Jay
@Roger Moore:
But he shot his home! Can he sue himself?
eclare
@schrodingers_cat:
I would like to learn about the genesis of the problem. Those who don’t study the past, etc, etc…
JPL
Enough of this shit
SAMUEL ALITO’S WIFE LEASED LAND TO AN OIL AND GAS FIRM WHILE THE JUSTICE FOUGHT THE EPA
A deal made by Alito’s wife with an energy company paints recent Supreme Court decisions on the environment in a damning light.
Suzanne
@Doc Sardonic: So. My FIL passed away suddenly on Memorial Day. Mr. Suzanne and I had to take the kids suddenly to Arkansas for the funeral. SuzMom is still recovering from a broken hip and is self-sufficient in the house, but in no way able to circulate out in the world. Anyway, the funeral was on Saturday. That night around midnight, I get a frantic, panicked call from my mom, crying, because there was a guy outside on our front steps screaming, “LET ME IN, I HAVE TO PEE, FUCK YOU, LET ME IN.” And he sat there on the front steps. She called the police and they came and picked his ass up. He was piss drunk (and really fucking stupid even when sober) and he thought it was his mom’s house. His mom lives about a block down the road.
She was freaking out — and justifiably so — but she didn’t shoot the guy. The police escorted him home.
This was a good outcome. I personally think public drunkenness should be more aggressively punished, but I cannot imagine anything good coming out of shooting people.
Cameron
@sdhays: All of them, Katie.
JPL
I wonder how many friends Alito and Thomas if they weren’t on the court.
Timill
@Dangerman: No, he’s a retired Imperial Stormtrooper…
Scout211
The statute
This “reason to believe” that an “intruder” is threatening unlawful and forceable entry into your home, dwelling or car is occurring, is doing heavy lifting.
This guy with the semi-automatic was inside his house so he is likely covered. He has “reason to believe” that his house was about to be unlawfully entered with a weapon (of illumination). If he had left the confines of his house to shoot the “intruder” in his back yard, he would not be protected.
IANAL, nor am I a Floridian, but “reason to believe” vs. evidence of seems, well, not right.
UncleEbeneezer
@PaulWartenberg: Even if there’s a good job waiting for you, moving is fucking expensive! We were looking to move from LA to Hudson Valley NY (still hope to at some point) and even looking at the most inexpensive movers (or renting Uhauls) it’s really not possible to do for much less than $10K, once we accounted for airfare to NY to find a place, security deposit, 1st month rent etc). And we don’t even have that much stuff to move (just a 2-BR worth) whereas families who have big houses…it’s probably much more for them. If you are young and can throw everything in your car/van etc., maybe you could do it for a couple grand but most people would have to pay closer to 10K, and most of us just don’t have that kind of money on hand.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@sdhays:
I like how you think. Come sit by me.
Cameron
@Tony Jay: He had to kill his glass door in order to save it.
eclare
@PaulWartenberg:
Yep. Like blaming victims of Katrina for not just gassing up the car and leaving for a hotel for awhile.
Elizabelle
The only thing that kept this from being fatal was the homeowner’s not being able to operate an AR-15. Again, an AR-15.
I hope that couple does not even get maid service or Uber rides in the future.
Too close to that darling Japanese exchange student who showed up at the wrong house, many years back.
UncleEbeneezer
@Alison Rose: Just saw a Tweet that Trayvon Martin would’ve turned 21 today (or yesterday). George Zimmerman was also explicitly asked by 911 operators to leave him alone and not pursue or engage with him.
hells littlest angel
So, in a nutshell:
Baud
OT, but Florida related. DeSantis has filed a motion to dismiss Disney’s lawsuit.
ETA: Apparently other motions are being or will be filed by other state defendants.
Spanky
Well, at least I hope that when the pool guy shat himself (30 rounds! ) that it was into the pool.
schrodingers_cat
@eclare: Sounds good! Good idea to start at the beginning.
@Elizabelle: Do ask me questions. It is difficult for me to guess what people already know.
eclare
@Elizabelle:
I hope his homeowners cancels him, and he can’t find anyone to insure him. If you were faceless corporate insurance company out to make money, would you?
Elizabelle
@UncleEbeneezer: Trayvon would be 28. Born in February 1995.
Some university awarded him an honorary diploma a few years ago. That brought back his loss.
eclare
@UncleEbeneezer:
Oh, that was and is heartbreaking.
UncleEbeneezer
@eclare: We also shouldn’t shame people who do decide to flee Oppression (which is sadly a thing I see Social Justice Twitter doing a lot of the time saying they should “stay and fight”). As one of my fave Black, Trans podcasters put it: So you saying my Great-Grandparents were wrong to flee Mississippi and Jim Crow? Or refugees fleeing Central America?
The right for people to go where they want and where they feel safe should be absolutely central to liberal/progressive values.
Roger Moore
@Scout211:
The big thing is that “reason to believe” gives law enforcement and the prosecutor a ton of plausible discretion about whether or not to prosecute. All they have to say is that they don’t think they can prove the person was unreasonable, and they have every excuse not to prosecute.
UncleEbeneezer
@Elizabelle: Weird. Must’ve been an old Tweet.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Elizabelle:
I did note that that his neighbors are beyond pissed. He might find that every HOA violation or near violation or non violation gets aggressively handled in the future so that he and his wife feel really unwelcome.
eclare
@UncleEbeneezer:
I didn’t think that I was saying that. Just that we shouldn’t underestimate financial barriers to moving.
Gravenstone
But clearly never learned to use them properly. Firing blind at an unclear target in reduced visibility is not a recipe for success. In the military they might call it “suppressive fire” if you’re in actual enemy contact. They might also call it a waste of ammunition. Indeed fortunate the pool dude was not more seriously injured, nor was anyone inadvertently downrange…
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
Agree. People have a right to move.
Gravenstone
@mrmoshpotato: hopefully Trigger-happy McAsshole is on the blacklist of reputable pool firm in the state.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: I’d be interested in the history.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@eclare:
“The only way we’ll renew is with a 50K annual premium. In full.”
eclare
And a question I have regarding homeowners, if you have a mortgage can the bank repossess if you can’t maintain homeowners?
I own a home but this never came up. But I thought that was why prop taxes and homeowners were paid out of escrow until the mortgage was paid off, to protect the bank’s investment.
Betty Cracker
@eclare: I think what happens is the bank purchases insurance on the homeowner’s behalf and adds it to the mortgage.
Elizabelle
Incidentally, let’s use their names. Shooter, Bradley Hocevar, aged 57, and his wife Jana Hocevar, aged 43, who ended up pleading with him to stop shooting, and Lawful Awful Sheriff Bob Gualtieri deserve the renown.
The pool cleaner who was not killed by 30 bullets fired in his direction is Karl Polek.
Police found bullets on the shuffelboard court behind the house. (Is this a retirement community??) I guess if Hocevar had taken out a few retirees, the sheriff might have had something different to say.
Ramalama
I thought lots of people wanted to return to Mayberry USA. Wonder if a political candidate in Florida assumed the Andy Griffith mantle (the tv sheriff who famously did not wear a gun), if that would garner support from people who are anti-gun, as well as people who just want someone to calm them down, Andy-style. I realize this is as bad as people clinging to West Wing storylines.
Seriously, these particular gun people are the biggest chicken-shits (shits of chicken?).
matt
well, that’s the cost of this imaginary castle doctrine idea of freedom.
brantl
@RepubAnon: all the chickenshits have to be is scared, and they’re scared of everything in the freaking cosmos.
OlFroth
Every single bullet that went downrange should be a charge of recklessly endangering another person.
zeecube
@Timill: You win the Internet today.
Mai Naem mobileI
We don’t know. Maybe he was a pool boy like Franklin Graham’s pool boy.
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
Then like Deputinize said, $50k upfront. The reason this is in my head is that I just renewed mine, and I remember there was an amount to cover my liability should anything happen. I don’t remember how much I’m covered for, but the biggest danger here is losing your seat on the couch to my dog.
Elizabelle
@UncleEbeneezer: Yeah. That happens a lot.
I just remembered because of the honorary degree, and that’s been a while. Never think of Trayvon Martin without a pang of sorrow and loss. What a waste. He should be flying the blue skies and living his life.
Wiki:
schrodingers_cat
@Mai Naem mobileI: My mind went there too.
Roger Moore
@eclare:
Most loans have a requirement to maintain homeowners insurance for the term of the loan, and foreclosure is an option. Most of the time, though, the lender will try hard to avoid foreclosure and will try to force you to get insurance instead.
hueyplong
@eclare: If things aren’t changed from the time I knew that answer, the bank would force place insurance (at a frighteningly high premium reflecting the fact that it was placed without underwriting) and add that to the borrower’s monthly payment.
You don’t want force placed insurance.
Bill Arnold
@leeleeFL:
The law does not appear to be specific about the means used to apply lethal force. E.g. one wonders if a chainsaw is legal. (Or a 220V extension cord with nails poked into the female end, and mounted on a long stick. Or….)
Gravenstone
@sdhays: How many state legislators even know their neighbors once they’ve become entrenched in their respective legislatures?
Elizabelle
This sentence:
Lucky? Really? Going to just depend on luck there?
Let us know when an alternative paper covers this story, with the real scoop.
eclare
@Roger Moore:
Thanks!
brantl
@Scout211: Not before it goes underwater. And got help the life expectancy of a POC with a decent boat.
eclare
@hueyplong:
Thanks too!
Kathleen
@Alison Rose: Sure! I know the owner would gladly answer his door and inquire as to the nature of the visit. Before blasting him with an AR-15.
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: With their names, it easy to find their address from voting records. (She’s a registered Democrat.)
Google Maps.
The houses couldn’t be any more on top of each other…
Grr…,
Scott.
OlFroth
@Roger Moore: But you are also responsible for every round you fire.
Kathleen
@Elizabelle: I really doubt it. Republicans want us to be “Free To Be Shot and Killed”.
UncleEbeneezer
@eclare: Oh no, I’m not saying you were. But it’s sort of the flip side of the coin that often comes up in these discussions about Stay vs. Leave, so I was using your comment as jumping off point. Sorry, I should’ve clarified.
Chris
@schrodingers_cat:
We hosted an Indian exchange student this past year (high school age).
At some point we showed her the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. A little bit into the second movie, she caught the phrase “East India Trading Company,” which provoked a very negative sort of recognition. After that, I happily told her all about the Boston Tea Party and how the EIC’s monopolistic practices were a major cause of the unrest that turned into the American Revolution.
If a shared patriotic distaste for British corporate oppression isn’t a sound basis for friendship, I don’t know what is.
Redshift
@eclare:
I’ve heard this discussed in the context of a couple of insurance companies saying they won’t operate in California any more because of wildfire risk. As I heard it, if that spreads, and a homeowner’s insurance gets cancelled and they can’t get replacement insurance they can afford, the bank can repossess, because you’re required to maintain insurance. The bank might try to work something out, if they don’t want the property either, but they could.
MomSense
In happier news, I’m about to get blasted with sprite. The little girl sitting next to me on the bus is shaking her bottle of sprite and has a particularly mischievous look on her face.
schrodingers_cat
@Chris: Indeed. Rapacious Brits focused their attention on India after they were kicked out of the US.
eclare
@UncleEbeneezer:
Ah, no worries.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@hueyplong:
I haven’t seen forced place coverage cost less than 2.5 times regular premiums. It’s brutal and sops up any equity in foreclosed property.
eclare
@Redshift:
Thanks!
brantl
@brantl: sorry, “God help”
artem1s
@trollhattan: if the insurance company has an ounce of sense they will raise his rates thru the roof. they can easily prove the asshole is a high risk.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Thanks for your input.
Geminid
@schrodingers_cat: I am always ready to learn more about Lord Cornwallis. I know some about his career in the Colonies- the Battle of Guilford Court House, the March to the Dan, and of course his strategic move to Yorktown that won the war for the other side.
I am glad you intend to make this a series. There is so much for me and others to learn about India. And this series will lead up to a hugely consequential election.
Baud
@MomSense:
That’s what you get for being unarmed.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Do it!
Delk
Was the guy drunk or high? Does that affect SYG?
MomSense
@Baud:
Thank goodness I am not her intended target. Her older and younger brothers are sitting in front of us and they are ignoring her. Mom ran into a friend and is also ignoring her.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@schrodingers_cat: yes please, start with the history.
lgerard
“Polek ran away after the first two rounds, but the Hocevars could not see because the blinds were closed and they were taking cover behind their couch”
Maybe they should dig a foxhole in their living room
eclare
@MomSense:
Ignoring a little girl with a loaded Sprite!
schrodingers_cat
@Mr. Bemused Senior: @Baud: So two more votes for starting at the beginning?
Martin
I’ll write postcards for the 2024 election, but I’m not knocking doors outside of CA. I would have considered Iowa (where my mom lives) or AZ (close by) but they’re both ruled out from this kind of stuff.
Wondering if the delivery services are factoring any of this into their calculations. If I’m a UPS delivery worker, I’m talking to my union to push for drivers to leave packages on the curb – at least in stand your ground/open carry states.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@schrodingers_cat:
Eunicecycle
@schrodingers_cat: I will add another vote for starting at the beginning.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
You can skip the whole “God created the heaven and the earth” part.
SomeRandomGuy
Unless it’s a revolver, or is belt-fed, saying the “magazine was fired empty” is all you need to worry about.
Very few guns use a “clip”. The most famous one, and the one that shows off the difference *really* well, is the M1 Garand. Its “clip” just holds 8 rounds in a rectangular position, ready to be shoved into the (internal) magazine – that is, the thing that actually *feeds* the bullets, versus what holds them.
Watch a video, or do it yourself. Take that magazine, and push down until it CLICKS – that’s what prevents the door from snapping the tip of your finger. Release, door snaps shut, and, then, the magazine feeds the bullets from the clip, into the firing chamber, one at a time.
Basically, no pop-culture use of “clip” for “holder of bullets” has been pedantically accurate for a while. Most guns now use an external magazine – which a lot of people call “clips” because the think it sounds cool.
Thing is, “clip” now means “magazine”. That is: if you wanted to teach a non-English speaker what this person’s of the word “clip” means, you’d usually have to say “that’s just another word for magazine. Some pedants will correct you, saying it’s not a clip, not really, but that is the way of pedants. Let them be, unless they’re arrogant pedants, then prick ’em to let the hot air out.”
(Perhaps I should say let the “balloon juice” out, in honor of the site.)
eclare
@Martin:
Maybe twenty years ago my aunt had a census job in AR, going door to door. She has said, looking back, she can’t believe she did that.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I will start with Queen Victoria’s proclamation after the 1857 war of independence was put down. Then I will go back to a brief history of the East India Company. And continue to the various political formations like the
All India Congress
All India Muslim League
Punjab Hindu Mahasabha
the Labor movement etc..
That formed in the late 19th century and beyond.
Martin
@JPL: We need to give Alito and Thomas a 30 day suspension from the court so they can go clean pools in Florida.
Eunicecycle
@Martin: my husband and I deliver for Meals on Wheels and have pulled in the wrong driveway or gone to the wrong door on occasion. Not every house is well marked! We also have clients that are KAE or knock, announce, enter. We are supposed to enter their homes because they can’t get to the door. But sometimes they are confused and aren’t sure who we are or why we are there. We have started to get a little concerned about being mistaken for an intruder. Not enough to quit, because we love it but it’s in the back of our minds.
hueyplong
Question for FL residents: Would it have been similarly “lawful but awful” had the pool guy, “in fear for his life,” returned fire and put one (or more) between homeowner’s eyes?
Presumably, next door neighbor could have turned it into a proper firefight while the cops stood by, waiting for magazines and clips to be fully discharged before venturing into the no-man’s land of the various castles’ yards.
Martin
Uh oh,
Jim Jordan better clear his calendar.
Elizabelle
@Martin: I’ll spot them the flashlight.
eclare
@schrodingers_cat:
Looking forward to it!
Martin
@Eunicecycle: Yeah, I’m talking to my city’s program director to do that as well – I’d have to do it by bike, and they are trying to decide if that can work.
But I live in a city where that won’t be a problem.
nonrev
Just my 2 cents. I consider myself a progressive, for a long time. I would gladly see the banning of assault rifles. But I’m a southern progressive. Lots done wrong here , but in the same situation I would have had a handgun and issued a verbal challenge.
WhatsMyNym
@Another Scott: I don’t think that’s the correct location. That neighborhood just has a shared pool with a parking lot and what I assume is a community center, right off the entry road.
Martin
From the photos the pool cleaner looks white, so I’d conclude ‘yes’.
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
In the beginning, the world was without form and void.
In the beginning the Universe was created.This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: Not at the beginning of the universe or even the beginning of recorded Indian history, the Indus Valley Civilization
I want to get the freedom struggle because that’s relevant to understand what is going on today.
nonrev
@Suzanne: Well Handle
Roger Moore
@nonrev:
According to the article, he did issue a verbal challenge. The problem was he issued the challenge while the pool guy had gone back to his truck to get something. So he misinterpreted the situation and thought the person was ignoring his verbal challenge. He should have issued it again right before opening fire (“Get out of my yard or I’ll shoot.”) to be sure something like that didn’t happen.
Betty Cracker
Speaking of homeowners insurance, I bet there’s a stupid NRA-sponsored law that prevents insurers from asking about guns. I know every policy I’ve ever purchased requires me to list the number of dogs I have and the breed. But as far as I recall, I’ve never been asked about guns.
@nonrev: I am also a Southerner, and in my opinion, attitudes like that are part of the problem with our region. Yeah, it can be scary when a stranger appears in your yard unexpectedly, but good lord, there’s nothing in that account that indicates the guy did anything aggressive.
Maybe arm yourself with a 9-iron, open the window a crack and ask them what the hell they are doing in your yard? Wait for the cops, who would respond quickly in that densely populated area? Going straight to a gun makes everyone less safe.
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
I was being facetious, but the problem with any kind of history is that you can always go a few steps further back in order to make sense of things. For example, my understanding is that you can’t really understand post-colonial India without understanding precolonial India. The English exploited and exacerbated precolonial disputes as part of a policy of divide and rule, so those disputes inevitably poisoned post-colonial politics.
My impression is this kind of thing happened in most post-colonial countries. The main reason it isn’t as big a problem in the US, Canada, and Australia is that the indigenous population in those countries was killed off to the point the colonizers were able to suppress them by direct force rather than subterfuge.
Ksmiami
@Scout211: that will change as their lives depend on it… just hope they aren’t being foolish. I’m alive because my ancestors in Central Europe had a foreboding of what Nazism was capable of…
Ksmiami
@Roger Moore: bring a towel…
jayne
I hope the groundskeeping/maintenance workers in Pinellas County have some sort of blacklist to put these people on at least.
rikyrah
An on the ground report from Harris County, Texas at the GOP voter suppression 😡😡
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8JowBpy/
karen marie
@trollhattan: You raise a good point. What does this do to one’s home insurance rate?
I haven’t looked at my renter’s policy to see if there’s a disclaimer for gun injuries but it would surprise me if there weren’t. Most insurance doesn’t cover damage by a “dangerous dog,” so it only stands to reason they wouldn’t cover damage by a gun-wielding homeowner.
SpaceUnit
Do you think if I went to Florida and jumped up and down really hard that might make it sink into the ocean a little faster?
Seems worth a try.
japa21
Question. If one of the bullets had actually hit someone, then would charges have been brought? Also, sounds like 28 rounds were fired after the pool cleaner had already left. I would think firing blind (or through blinds) would also constitute reckless endangerment. This is so idiotic.
evodevo
@Martin: yes…this..retired rural mail carrier here…in KY in Nov/Dec. it is dark at 5 pm, and due to the incredible Amazon package loads (hundreds per day) we were often running in the dark up till 7pm…and, of course, headquarters was adamant about leaving packages ON THE PORCH/FRONT DOOR/GARAGE etc. Well, the pit bulls/rottweilers were put out when the owners got home from work, and of course there were MAGAts galore out there who shot first and asked questions later, so life as a delivery person wasn’t really worth the money…I quit just before The Plague hit, and I’m still glad I did…
Another Scott
@Roger Moore: +1
That’s one reason why War and Peace is so huge – Tolstoy wanted to write about later periods but needed to go back further for the necessary background…
Cheers,
Scott.
karen marie
@Betty Cracker: There was a post about it, if I’m remembering correctly.
@Scout211: Reading that language, I don’t think it matters whether the homeowner doing the shooting is inside or outside. You can be afraid someone is attempting to go into your house while you’re in your yard.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: True. But since I am writing this I can define my initial conditions. If some background is needed we can take those paths if necessary.
There may be some broad general themes regarding the colonial experience, the devil is in the details.
zhena gogolia
@Another Scott: It was supposed to take place in 1856, with a Decembrist returning from exile in Siberia when Alexander II issued an amnesty. But he thought he needed to explain the Decembrist rebellion of 1825. But to understand that, you had to know about the Napoleonic invasion of 1812. But he didn’t want to depict the triumph of 1812 without depicting the mistakes made leading up to it. So he started in 1805 (with flashbacks to the age of Catherine I). The main part of the book ends in 1812, and the epilogue makes it to the run-up to the Decembrist rebellion, but he never gets there.
Jim Appleton
@rikyrah: That’s stark and alarming.
Not sure what I can do from Oregon, but will watch and find opportunities.
Ruckus
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Please don’t.
There are plenty of humans in this country that live long enough and then live on SS and Medicare and who don’t shoot any one.
Seems to me we need to understand that a lot of people watch TV news every day, sometimes all day and especially watch faux news and it looks and sounds like everyone is out to shoot everyone else. We need a better way to inform people without scaring the shit out of them and without turning them into worse racist assholes than they already are. And yes, to me faux news is one of the worst of the worst causes of all this bullshit.
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
Whatever happened to a good ole Louisville Slugger?
And yeah, I’m sure there is some NRA supported rule that prevents insurance companies from asking. Grrrrr.
Annie
@boatboy_srq:
People are hypnotized by the “no state income tax” and forget you will have to pay for air conditioning for at least five months of the year. I asked my cousin who lives in Florida what her air conditioning bill was and it was a LOT more than my California state income tax.
karen marie
@Another Scott: If you look at street view, it’s pretty nice. Houses are set back more than I’d prefer (too much front yard, too little back yard) but they seem reasonably distanced from each other.
Uncle Cosmo
@schrodingers_cat: Later Cornwallis made a stopover in Ireland to crush the uprising of 1798 and hang most of the rebels. At least according to Thomas Flanagan’s 1979 novel The Year of the French, which I just finished reading last week. (Beautifully written, compelling, and heart-wrenchingly sad on all sides.)
Another Scott
@WhatsMyNym: I see what appears to be a dug-out, pool-shaped area right next to the house (and right next to the green shrubbery fence).
Dunno.
Cheers,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
BTW brave Bernie bro Anand Girdharadas went to the state dinner and now has locked his Twitter profile. Guess he is brave only when talking about Jeff Bezos.
Gravenstone
@Annie: I have a college buddy starting to make noises about retiring to Florida. He pointed out the lack of state income tax, which I immediately counter with how do they pay for services? Sales tax? Consumption tax? Property tax? Do they just not offer a lot of services other states take for granted? There’s always a cost, somewhere.
schrodingers_cat
@Uncle Cosmo: He sure got around!
eclare
@Gravenstone:
Yep. I live in Memphis. No income tax in TN, but I pay 9.975% sales tax on everything, including food.
Roger Moore
@Another Scott:
I was thinking of Herodotus’s Histories. He wanted to talk about the Greco-Persian War, but he needed to go pretty far afield and into the past in order to make sense of it.
Roger Moore
@Annie:
Also that you’ll have to pay other taxes in order to keep the government running, and those taxes fall harder on the less well off than income taxes do. Texans love to talk about not having a state income tax, but people below about the 60th income percentile pay more overall tax in Texas than in California. It’s only the ultra-rich who really benefit from not having a state income tax.
kalakal
@Annie:
The real shocker is the cost of home insurance which is going through the roof.
Add in the sales tax and Florida is an expensive place to live. I retire in a couple of years and Mrs kalakal and I are seriously considering moving, just can’t decide where
Fun fact: We live about 2 miles away from that idiot.
Citizen Alan
@Ksmiami: I almost cried in relief when I got an email from a judge in Tallahassee saying that I had a great interview and was exceptionally qualified, but that she had decided on a different candidate for her career law clerk. Because throughout that entire process, I was honestly afraid that i would be offered the job and, if so, I would have to take it (that’s how deeply the fear of unemployment is ingrained in me). And then I would live the rest of my life in Florida.
Instead of California (19 days!)
eclare
@eclare:
Oops. Checked a receipt. The sales tax here is only 9.75%.
eclare
@kalakal:
To your fun fact: Ugh. It won’t happen, but he should be permanently banned from owning a firearm for shooting at something he could not even see.
Citizen Alan
@Doc Sardonic:
Warning: That simple phrase doesn’t help if you’re a black guy who shoots a cop trying to kick your door down in an unannounced raid in the middle of the night, even if the cops went to the wrong address in the first place.
cain
@eclare: All the rich people are cheering since you’d extract a lot more from those upper income folks. They can’t affect the sales tax as much but they probably have ways to get around that as well.
eclare
@cain:
Oh I know a sales tax is highly regressive. All those country stars in Nashville must love it. Taylor Swift, Nicole Kidman/Keith Urban, etc, they all live here.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@schrodingers_cat: The history would be interesting to know first. Everything always seems connected…
Betty Cracker
@eclare: The sales tax is 7% in FL. The state makes up the difference by soaking tourists.
Chief Oshkosh
@sdhays:
All of them, Katie, all of them…
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
Yep. A lot of states do that. I remember renting a car in AZ around 2007. If you rented without an AZ address, there was something like a 25-30% airport fee. I should have flown into Vegas, rented a car, and driven to AZ.
Steeplejack
@UncleEbeneezer:
Splitting Image
@zhena gogolia:
Sounds like Tristram Shandy, which is supposed to Tristram’s biography, but spends almost the entire book covering his parents and the doctor who delivered him, and only gets Tristram as far as age 3. Of course Sterne did this deliberately. Not so sure about Tolstoy.
zhena gogolia
@Splitting Image: He did love Sterne. ETA: I never thought of that — this is from Tolstoy’s own draft intro to W&P. I wonder if he was thinking of Sterne when he wrote that!
eclare
@Steeplejack:
He really needs to STFU. Or get it STFU for him.
UncleEbeneezer
Pass the popcorn please:
eclare
@UncleEbeneezer:
Stunning. I assume Jack “Resting Indictment Face” Smith files next in NJ?
Betty Cracker
New detail from WFLA’s coverage of this incident: the man who murdered his own sliding glass door was formerly a lieutenant colonel in the US military. Can we assume he did not earn a marksmanship ribbon? 🤔
Scout211
@UncleEbeneezer: oh my.
But, but, but Trump said he was lying about that document. It wasn’t really what he told everyone it was. So he’s either a big fat liar or a treasonous traitor.
Why not both?
And more from Loose Cannon: Link
. . .
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
Holy shit! I am not a marksman and don’t own a gun, but I thought the first rule of firing was do not fire at what you do not know/see?
Lyrebird
@Betty Cracker: Betty, I’m so glad YOU are in Fla and here on BJ. And that the shooting was far away from you.
Generally speaking, I am kinda wondering about the chef who posted this “shotgun shells” recipe , even though with all that bacon and sausage and what-not, I bet it would be popular.
MagdaInBlack
@UncleEbeneezer: Ya, I just listened to that. Better stock up that popcorn pantry.
lowtechcyclist
@Roger Moore:
See Where God Went Wrong by Oolon Colluphid
UncleEbeneezer
@Scout211: Most of the Legal Twitter people I follow say the Cannon order is actually reasonable and not something worth freaking out about
[Oh shit, just realized you weren’t talking about that order, my bad. Juggling three things at once…]
Scout211
@UncleEbeneezer: @MagdaInBlack:
So many women in that room with Trump just giggling (and flirting?) over the whole thing. Disgusting. I hope we find out who the main female voice belongs to.
Scout211
@UncleEbeneezer: Yeah, I wasn’t freaking out about all the procedural things, I was reacting to the audio tape.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I should have made them separate comments.
R'Chard
“Lawful but awful.” Well, isn’t that precious.
Wapiti
The pool guy was hit with shrapnel and flying glass…
Pedant: shrapnel is the fragments thrown by an exploding shell, bomb, or grenade (sometimes narrowed further to: deliberately designed for anti-personnel effects).
UncleEbeneezer
@Scout211: Glad I haven’t listened yet. I try to avoid that any audio or video of that fucker. Been pretty good so far. Probably have listened to or watched no more than 5 minutes since 2016.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: I saw that on WFLA. Army guys are allegedly well trained w weapons, no?
made me wonder how many tours of duty, and are we dealing with PTSD that got triggered? Still inexcusable.
NotMax
If Florida had an indigenous super-hero, it would be a guy who was bitten by a radioactive snail.
//
jlowe
So, when do pedestrians and bicyclists in Florida get to stand their ground against the drivers of murder trucks?
Scout211
Partial transcript CNN
NotMax
Now we know why Dolt 45 wanted to buy Greenland. Plenty of nooks and crannies in which to store boxes.
//
Brachiator
@NotMax:
Florida has no superheroes because potential folk stood their ground and shot the radioactive critters before they could bite them.
prostratedragon
@MagdaInBlack: I nearly rushed for mine just now, but don’t want to spoil dinner. What a revolting jerk!
Scout211
Lawfare: 703 Ways Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Conduct Bears No Resemblance to Hillary Clinton’s Emails
Too many to excerpt, but an amazing list.
mrmoshpotato
@UncleEbeneezer: “But her emails!”
Good job, you Hillary-hating, stupid, asshole children! Including my narcissistic, dumbfuck aunt who didn’t vote for President in 2016.
Steeplejack
@eclare:
I thought “air strike for pickleball” was funny.
mrmoshpotato
@Scout211: 703? Fucking sheep-shagging shitstains, Batman!
Steeplejack
@eclare:
😹
Chris T.
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
By that logic, the State of Florida should just nuke itself.
Jafnhar
@Roger Moore: i guess my question is if there are no limits on this? What if he had loaded another clip and shot into the dark again? Then another clip? How long can that go on (even assuming nobody else gets hit) before it’s reckless endangerment?
Jafnhar
@R’Chard: it’s another way of saying that your laws are awful