Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

’Where will you hide, Roberts, the laws all being flat?’

I’m more christian than these people and i’m an atheist.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

A fool as well as an oath-breaker.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

There are times when telling just part of the truth is effectively a lie.

Bad people in a position to do bad things will do bad things because they are bad people. End of story.

Quote tweet friends, screenshot enemies.

Today in our ongoing national embarrassment…

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Second rate reporter says what?

All hail the time of the bunny!

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

This isn’t Democrats spending madly. This is government catching up.

Radicalized white males who support Trump are pitching a tent in the abyss.

You are either for trump or for democracy. Pick one.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread: MI Attorney General Dana Nessell Is Not Messing Around

Open Thread: MI Attorney General Dana Nessell Is Not Messing Around

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Adding to Dave Anderson’s recent post. Steve Benen, at MSNBC:

As 2023 got underway, Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel made unsubtle comments about her state’s Republican “fake electors” from the 2020 election cycle. The Michigan prosecutor declared in early January that there was “clear evidence” to pursue criminal charges against the pro-Trump partisans who pretended to be real electors.

Nessel also explained on “The Rachel Maddow Show” that while she’d referred the matter to federal prosecutors, state charges remained possible. “That type of activity can’t go without any consequences,” the Democratic state attorney general said at the time…

This is the first time fake electors in any state have been criminally charged, and it’s unrelated to the civil case filed earlier this year against the Michigan Republicans.

These are not misdemeanors. Each of the GOP defendants has been charged with several felonies, including conspiracy to commit forgery, forgery, conspiracy to commit election law forgery, and election law forgery…

The Detroit Free Press has a comprehensive listing:

Attorney General Dana Nessel announced felony charges Tuesday against the group of Michigan Republicans who allegedly participated in a scheme to try to award the state’s Electoral College votes to former President Donald Trump with a phony certificate in the 2020 election despite his 154,188-vote loss in the state.

Those criminally charged include a former leader of the Michigan GOP, a former Michigan Republican National Committeewoman and other ardent Trump advocates:

– Meshawn Maddock: Republicans chose Maddock to serve as Michigan GOP co-chair after the 2020 election.
– Kathy Berden: In 2015, the state committee of the Michigan GOP elected Berden as the party’s national committeewoman. The fake certificate of electors lists Berden as “Chairperson, Electoral College of Michigan.”
– Mayra Rodriguez: Rodriguez is a Michigan lawyer facing a complaint from the Michigan Attorney Grievance Commission filed with the Michigan Attorney Discipline Board recommending disciplinary action against her. The fake certificate of electors lists Rodriguez as “Secretary.”
– Timothy King: King was the lead plaintiff in a legal effort led by Trump ally Sidney Powell to overturn the 2020 election in Michigan.
– John Haggard: Haggard served as a Republican elector in 2016. He was one of the plaintiffs who brought a lawsuit in the wake of the 2020 election to try to name Trump the winner.
– Stanley Grot: Grot serves as Macomb County’s Shelby Township clerk.
– William (Hank) Choate: Choate previously served as the chair of the Jackson County Republican Party and chair of the Michigan GOP’s 7th District.
– Amy Facchinello: Facchinello was elected to serve as a board member of Grand Blanc Community Schools in 2020.
– Clifford Frost: Frost previously ran for office and served on the Michigan GOP state committee.
– Mari-Ann Henry: A previous webpage for the Greater Oakland Republican Club showed Henry was involved with the group.
– Michele Lundgren: Lundgren ran as a Republican in 2022 seeking to represent part of Detroit in the Michigan House of Representatives. She lost her election to incumbent state Rep. Abraham Aiyash, D-Hamtramck.
– James Renner: Renner was one of two names that appear on the fake certificate of electors who was not originally nominated by the state’s Republican Party to serve as an elector in the event of a Trump victory.
– Ken Thompson: Thompson is the second individual whose name appears on the fake certificate of electors who was not originally nominated by the state’s Republican Party to serve as an elector in the event of a Trump victory.
– Rose Rook: Rook has held various local leadership positions with the Republican Party.
– Marian Sheridan: Sheridan currently serves as the Michigan GOP’s grassroots vice-chair.
– Kent Vanderwood: Vanderwood currently serves at Mayor of the City of Wyoming…

According to a news release from Nessel’s office, each defendant has been charged with:

= One count of Conspiracy to Commit Forgery, a 14-year felony.
= Two counts of Forgery, a 14-year felony.
= One count of Conspiracy to Commit Uttering and Publishing, a 14-year felony.
= One count of Uttering and Publishing, a 14-year felony.
= One count of Conspiracy to Commit Election Law Forgery, a 5-year felony.
= Two counts of Election Law Forgery, a 5-year felony…

Much more at the link.

Reader Interactions

112Comments

  3. 3.

    Baud

    Uttering and Publishing don’t sound like criminal acts.  Curious what the actual crime is.

    Y’all should schedule more zooms with Imm. Prosecutors are noticing.

  5. 5.

    Ken

    @Baud: It’s legalese for document forgery.

    I had to look it up on google, and consider it significant that I got to “utterin” and it suggested “uttering and publishing michigan law”.

  6. 6.

    sab

    I agree with Nessel. We are almost through an entire presidential term heading into the next election and nothing much has happened to any of these guys who tried to steal an election.

  8. 8.

    Fair Economist

    As usual, the Republicans accusations of electoral fraud are actually confessions.

  10. 10.

    Anonymous At Work

    1. Michigan Republicans are broke and have alienated their donor base.  So, none should expect the state party to pay for lawyers.
    2. This is a lot of charges for TFG and his PAC to pay for lawyers, all in Michigan.
    3. LOTS and LOTS of incentives to be the first to make a deal and flip.  “Prisoner’s Dilemma” features 2 people and is hard to pull off in practice.  Getting coordination out of 16 is like calling “edge” on 10 consecutive coin flips.
    4. Anyone know anything about Michigan’s RICO laws?
  15. 15.

    Ken

    @Anonymous At Work: This is a lot of charges for TFG and his PAC to pay for lawyers, all in Michigan.

    After the Georgia case, where the Trump-paid lawyers didn’t tell their ostensible clients about the plea-bargain offers, I’d think that potential clients and lawyers would both be leery of such arrangements. I’d also expect judges and AGs to keep a close eye on them.

  16. 16.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Anonymous At Work: Re 1: Yes, but nothing quite gets Republicans revved up like protecting other republicans from the consequences of their actions. OH, sorry I meant “political persecution”

  17. 17.

    catfishncod

    @Baud: Reading a bit further, it’s knowingly sending the forged document in a legal action. Usually that legal action is tied to some financial fraud, not election fraud, but it’s the same from a nuts&bolts viewpoint apparently.

    Defining this separately makes sense. If the forger and fraudster are separate people, you’d need the separate charges to cover each action.

  23. 23.

    Martin

    @Baud: I like how Canada calls driving in a way distracting to others, like giving them the finger, is ‘stunting’.

    Like, you’re just making shit up now. Go look up the latin and at least make it sound like a law.

  24. 24.

    Dangerman

    OK, I’m trying to think of a way to qualify exactly how stupid one would have to be to certify that you are the entitled elector for the Electoral College and not expect it to boomerang on you and seriously fuck up your life. Run with scissors stupid? No, I run with scissors all the time, so that doesn’t work. Go to the bank and say this is a hold up stupid? Closer, since you are asking for something that isn’t yours to have.

    In the timeless counsel of efgoodman, fuck ’em, and I mean fuck ’em good and hard so this bullshit never happens again.

  25. 25.

    Almost Retired

    Well now!  This may serve as a deterrent in 2024 to Republicans in swing-ish states with strong Democratic Secretaries of State  – who ran on ballot access.  I’m looking at you Arizona and Nevada (and Wisconsin, although I think AG and not the SoS the top election official).

  28. 28.

    Old Man Shadow

    Well, would ya look at that. We done found the election fraud Republicans was always on about. It was comin’ from inside their house.

  29. 29.

    geg6

    Throw the book at these traitorous mother fuckers.  I’m so deathly sick of these people.

  30. 30.

    Martin

    @Tom Levenson: RICO applies to a very specific set of racketeering offenses, which includes counterfeiting. But the point of RICO is to indicate an entire organization, even if you can’t prove each individual member of the organization did the crimes. That’s why it exists – to get the boss who had the underlings do the bad act.

    So would the MI AG want to indict the entire MI GOP as a criminal organization? As satisfying as that might feel, I think that’s a non-starter. Same for the federal GOP. Trumps campaign organization or some superpac might be a different matter

    That’s why ‘it’s never RICO’ because you rarely want to take an entire organization down like that, and it’s a hard charge to prove.

  32. 32.

    Urza

    @Dangerman: It does seem stupid, but also no one was coming after them until now so was it really?  This bullshit of playing nice when they commit crimes or else they’ll do the same to Democrats or worse later needs to stop.  Bush Sr should have gone down for Iran Contra along with Reagan.  Bush Jr had how many crimes even if lying us into a war isn’t actually one of them.  Could have arrested basically everyone at the White House on any given day from 2017-2020 for a grab bag of known crimes that were published in the news.
    Can’t keep a democracy if you let the riff raff bully you and don’t punch them back.

  33. 33.

    mrmoshpotato

    These are not misdemeanors. Each of the GOP defendants has been charged with several felonies, including conspiracy to commit forgery, forgery, conspiracy to commit election law forgery, and election law forgery…

    Forgery around and find out, fuckers!

  34. 34.

    UncleEbeneezer

    THE SPECIAL COUNSEL’S letter to Donald Trump related to Jan. 6 listed the federal statutes under which Trump is expected to be charged, including conspiracy, obstruction, and civil rights violations, according to a source with knowledge of the contents of the target letter.

    Special counsel Jack Smith sent the letter to Trump on Sunday, informing him he was a target of the Justice Department. Trump on Tuesday announced he’d been sent the lettervia a post on the social media platform Truth Social.
    The letter mentions three federal statutes: Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud the United States; deprivation of rights under color of law; and tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant. It does not offer further details, nor does it detail how the special counsel believes Trump may have violated the statutes, the source tells Rolling Stone.

    The letter does not mention statues on sedition or insurrection, according to the source. Trump is the only person named in the letter, the source says.

    The source said the statues listed likely refer to the prosecutor’s interest in charging Trump with obstructing the election certification process, including Trump efforts to pressure Mike Pence to stop the certification of President Biden’s 2020 victory.

    A spokesperson for the Special Counsel did not immediately return requests for comment.

  37. 37.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    Good for Nessal! I realize the Feds have been busy, but this can’t go unaddressed. These criminals need to pay for their crimes. I would love to see more action at the state levels where this kind of thing has been happening. These crooks cannot be allowed to do this again.

  39. 39.

    Martin

    @Dangerman: I think this ties back to how you fundamentally think the government derives its power. To the left, the governments authority derives from popular elections and the consent of the entire populace including those that don’t vote. To the right, the governments authority derives from the founders establishing a white Christian nation state, and as such, only the consent of that population as it relates to that goal counts. So given that the GOP electors were operating toward that goal, they perceived their actions to be reasonable.

    We can argue whether ‘all men are created equal’ speaks to the former or latter, but given that slavery was legal and women couldn’t vote for a century and change, I don’t think the GOP are entirely unfounded in their view, where the left take that statement to be aspirational which we become more true to with every generation. As to the Christian part, that the Constitution is now an actual religious document for some Christian groups means that even if the founders didn’t intend that result, we’re now sort of stuck with the consequences of it.

    There’s going to some fun chicanery with the growing USSC consensus of a right of religious freedom and the Constitution, but not necessarily all of the amendments, or any of the court interpretations being divinely inspired.

  42. 42.

    Baud

    @zhena gogolia:

    I hated travelers checks.  I don’t want to hear any youngsters complain about anything anymore.  They don’t have to deal with travelers checks.

  43. 43.

    Martin

    @UncleEbeneezer: Interesting. Trumps post Sunday specifically mentioned the insurrection act, which I have to think he would only have mentioned if it was in there. Trump has a lot of:

    “I’ve never even gone in the basement!”

    “Sir, we never mentioned that the victim was found in the basement”

    energy. He defends against information he knows, even when he knows he’s not supposed to know it.

  44. 44.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud: I remember going to an American Express office to cash traveler’s checks. But where did we go to pick up mail? Was that also American Express?

  45. 45.

    sab

    @Martin: Does no one remember that the first continental congress had a kosher table? Not being sarcastic. There really was one, which is all I need to know about our Founders intending to found a Christian nation.

  48. 48.

    twbrandt

    @Baud: on a recent trip to Norway and Sweden, I didn’t use cash even once. Never needed to – every where I went took credit cards and Apple Pay.

    I don’t miss traveler’s checks at all – they were a total pain in the ass.

  49. 49.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud: We did when we were on a 3-month camping trip in Eastern Europe. But I can’t remember where we picked it up.

  50. 50.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: ​ What’s wrong with traveler’s checks? They were good enough for Jack Colton.

    Jack Colton: My minimum price for taking a stranded lady to a telephone is 400 dollars.
    Joan Wilder: Will you take 375 in traveler’s checks?
    Jack Colton: American Express?
    Joan Wilder: Of course.
    Jack Colton: You’ve got a deal.
     

  51. 51.

    Martin

    @sab: First off, I’m not old enough to remember that (Boy, tell me you’re over 249 years old without telling me you’re over 249 years old) but really that just serves as evidence the Jews have always been trying to take over the country.

  54. 54.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: ​ Well, speaking only for myself, I never had any trouble cashing AE Traveler’s Checks and as far as I know AE always stood behind them. Also as far as I know, you need to first find a fellow sucker to cash in on bitcoin.

  55. 55.

    Almost Retired

    @Baud:  Travelers checks were horrific.  The commercials of the era showed happy European shopkeepers and restauranteurs gleefully accepting them and inviting the traveler to their homes in gratitude for paying in such sophisticated currency.  In reality, my experience on my circa 1982 backpacking tour of Europe was that  travelers checks were met with a sigh and some muttered obscenities that I started to recognize in several languages.  Travelers checks were paper bitcoin and Matt Damon is the Karl Malden of our day.

  59. 59.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: well into the aughts, my local bank ATM card didn’t work in Europe. I can’t imagine going back to travelers checks now.

    A few years after I switched to a bigger bank, I had I forget what business to take care of and I went to the American Express office in Paris to find it was no more. I hadn’t been there in years, hadn’t needed it, but I was still sad to see it gone. Like the International Herald Tribune, it’s a relic I wouldn’t use if it still existed, but feel a pang of nostalgia for

  62. 62.

    Yarrow

    @zhena gogolia:  Try dealing with travelers checks now, which I recently had to do. Only a large bank would even consider it (others told me no) and they had to get the manager to approve it. Banks have pretty much quit accepting them.

  64. 64.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: Oh yeah, I always cashed them at a bank. Most people prefer cash so why not get it for them.

  65. 65.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @zhena gogolia:

    Never dealt with traveler’s checks, but I’ve heard of them. At my job, plenty of folks still use personal checks to pay. I have personal checks but rarely use them aside from major purchases (I wrote a check for a down-payment on my car two years ago)

    @A Man for All Seasonings (formerly Geeno):

    OMG – there are children here – I’ll watch my language.

    Lol

  67. 67.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Yarrow: We had all our money in travelers checks on our honeymoon (1980), and were glad of that when they were stolen because it was easy to get them replaced by American Express.

    On the other hand, I remember another incident in the 80s, trying to use travelers checks in Washington DC. The shopkeeper asked for ID, I produced my NYS drivers license which at the time was a bit of cardboard with text on it, and he said, “don’t you have a real license?”

    New York was a little late to issue licenses with pictures on them I guess.

  69. 69.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Almost Retired: I never used them to buy anything.  I cashed a few at a time and used local currency.  I thought they were kind of cool, part of the romance of travel and all that..  I also like vinyl records and manual transmissions.  And I can tie a bow tie.

  70. 70.

    Juju

    I’m kind of surprised that Mellissa Carone, the drunk woman who testified at one of the vote fraud hearings in Michigan, wasn’t on the fake elector list. She certainly seemed like she could be the type.

  72. 72.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @martha: We did that too, the summer after we were married. We spent 2 months in Europe, checking for mail a couple of time. It’s hard to imagine being out of touch that long now. On planes, I see people who have to call someone when they take off and call someone when they land

  73. 73.

    stinger

    Immanentize Zoom call: Misunderstandings and typos are my own.
    First question: How much trouble is TFG in?
    Imm: Quite a bit. He’s in serious legal trouble. Side note: In the Oathkeepers trial, the judge went below the recommendation; prosecutors appealed the deviation DOWNWARD. They want that sentencing nailed down before it gets to Trump, so they know what it is likely to be if TFG is convicted of seditious conspiracy.​
    ​

    Luckily, the call is being recorded. I’m too slow a typist!

  76. 76.

    They Call Me Blue

    @Tom Levenson: That said, I have no idea if 16 people getting together to try to steal an election would qualify.

    Sixteen plus the people that rounded up the flock of fraudsters.

  79. 79.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I didn’t get to say it earlier, but: Happy 28th! Still a youngin’ with a lot of potential ahead of ya. :)

    More seriously, it’s been cool to see you mature and grow over time. Keep at it, fella. And Happy Birthday!

  81. 81.

    martha

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I know! I went to Europe when I was in college and sent my mom a couple of postcards over two months. Can you imagine mothers today “allowing” that? Yikes.

  82. 82.

    Almost Retired

    @Omnes Omnibus:  that’s surely exactly how they should have been used!  But no one told the 19 year old version of me because the 19 year old version of me wouldn’t have listened anyway.

  83. 83.

    MisterForkbeard

    @WaterGirl: If the Legal Zoom is still open, my afternoon meetings evaporated and I would love to listen in. Possible to still get a (very late) link? :(

  86. 86.

    zhena gogolia

    @martha: Okay, that fits — my recollection was you cashed the checks at the same place you got your mail.

    College kids who only heard from their mothers every couple of weeks, via snail mail — can you believe it?

  91. 91.

    Jeffro

    @sab: I agree with Nessel. We are almost through an entire presidential term heading into the next election and nothing much has happened to any of these guys who tried to steal an election.

    1,110% this.

    J6 should have been our country’s stop, drop, and ROLL THESE CLOWNS THE FUCK UP moment.

  94. 94.

    Jeffro

    Btw Biden 2024 has released an ad with MTG “narrating” and I. am. dying.  LOLOLOL

  96. 96.

    CaseyL

    @japa21: I think we have the laws we would need.  Since Jan 6, I’ve been in favor  of sending practically the entire GOP to Gitmo under the Patriot Act.

  97. 97.

    Kent

    @Baud:I hated travelers checks.  I don’t want to hear any youngsters complain about anything anymore.  They don’t have to deal with travelers checks.

    Traveler’s checks went out with the invention of the ATM.  That was a LONG time ago.

  98. 98.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Dangerman: I don’t think anyone involved in this scheme seriously thought they would lose. They figured Trump had all the power and that he’d be kind to them.

  99. 99.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kent: Traveler’s checks went out once you had reasonable assurance that you could use your credit card (or your ATM card) when traveling internationally. I was still using them on my big Eurailpass adventure in 1991. That was before the euro, too, so I’d exchange some for the local currency every time I crossed a border.

    I still have a lot of trouble using my current credit union’s ATM card in other countries, actually. But the credit card works.

  100. 100.

    tobie

    @zhena gogolia: I had friends who got their mail at the American Express office. I never used it myself but there was something reassuring knowing you could get mail there while searching for housing.

  102. 102.

    raven

    @zhena gogolia: In 84 I went to LA for the Olympics and they had a big scare about counterfeit travelers checks and I had to go with my mom to her bank to cash them (at 35 years old)!

  104. 104.

    Matt McIrvin

    @twbrandt: In London last year, credit cards were fine for everything except that cabs surcharged for them and preferred cash.

    In Barcelona and environs this year, I used no cash and the one place where I was caught up short was PortAventura, a major theme park in Salou–my card was fine for everything except the ride lockers, which were 2 euros a pop and took coins only. I ended up stashing a lot of stuff in my zippered jacket pockets.

    I was caught by surprise because I’d gotten used to American amusement parks going to a card system for that stuff. The Six Flags parks even refuse to take cash on site–you have to buy a sort of debit card at the entrance if cash is all you’ve got.

  105. 105.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    My wife and I used Travellers Checks in the late 90s or early aughts. Unfortunately, I don’t remember where the hell we were.  Ireland?

  106. 106.

    Jackie

    @Jeffro: Morning Joe will run it with hysterical laughter. TIFG does watch MJ – it’s like he can’t help himself – and see “his Marge” selling Biden’s accomplishments 😂

  107. 107.

    Jeffro

    @Jackie: it’s just outstanding.  sends a great signal to the GQP: “I am running, I will throw punches, get used to it!”

  111. 111.

    Jackie

    @Jeffro: I hope Biden spends some money running that ad on Red states local evening news (especially in MTG’s district,) along with Faux and Friends, and Prime Time RW programs. Well worth the cost IMO.

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