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Text STOP to opt out of updates on war plans.

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The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

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The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

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Celebrate the fucking wins.

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You are here: Home / Elections 2024 / 2024 Primaries / Master Debaters (Open Thread)

Master Debaters (Open Thread)

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Are y’all gonna watch the Repub debate tonight? I have a baseball conflict, but I am mighty tempted to tune in to the Gawky in Milwaukee because it’s sink or swim time for the waterlogged and pruney Florida governor. Just as I prefer to see walk-off grand slams against the New York Yankees live, I want to be watching if Christie or someone drops the anvil that sinks Rancid DeMeatball below the sauce line.

So, game-time call.

I’ve only seen DeSantis in debates a couple of times, but that’s enough to know he sucks at it. He blinks uncomprehendingly at barbs anyone could see coming a mile away. He gets peevish and defensive, and his head wobbles around like a bladder on a stick.

Knowing their candidate sucks ass at debating and that they have to reverse his polling slide pronto, Team DeSantis brought in GOP debate prep specialist Brett O’Donnell to make a silk purse out of a crabby sow’s ear. Politico predictably swooned at the news and lionized O’Donnell as “the GOP’s Debate Wizard — ‘He’s William Shakespeare and Vince Lombardi rolled into one.'”

Charles P. Pierce at Esquire responded with the masterclass mocking that load of hooey deserves:

And I can’t help but mention that O’Donnell’s CV includes a stint with The Girl With The Faraway Eyes.

When the next presidential cycle rolled around in 2012, O’Donnell signed on early to work for then-Rep. Michele Bachmann. His role gradually expanded from debate coach to being one of her most senior and trusted advisers. Shocking many pundits, her campaign saw an early meteoric rise fueled by strong debate performances over the summer of 2011, before a gradual collapse..”

And then the debate guru made the capital mistake of letting Bachmann out of the green room with the padded walls.

During a September 2011 GOP debate after Texas Gov. Rick Perry had surpassed her in the polls, Bachmann eviscerated Perry for issuing an executive order mandating HPV vaccines for schoolgirls to prevent cervical cancer, calling it a “government injection” that was a “violation of a liberty interest.” The well-scripted initial attack went as planned, as Perry said he’d made a mistake. The Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza declared Bachmann one of the “winners” after the debate.

I trust I don’t have to explain at this point in history what a wooden nickel that last distinction was. As TBOTP points out, Bachmann proceeded to triple down on her vaccine denialism and she is now in the phantom zone somewhere.

Yep. The problem with the Bachmann 2012 campaign was Bachmann. And as Pierce notes, “Ron DeSantis is a meathead running a world-historically bad campaign, and that will be the case even if he gets up on the stage and out-quips Vivek Ramaswamy.”

Still, if my team is miles ahead (and we’re in a series with the worst team in baseball at the moment, though you never know), I may have to watch the debate. The likelihood that it gets grisly for DeSantis is high, and though it doesn’t speak well of my character, I would enjoy that. A lot.

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

203Comments

  1. 1.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Not me. I have more important things to do, like rearrange my belly lint collection.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    I appreciate the people who watch, much like I appreciate people who investigate child abuse and war crimes, but I’m not interested in subjecting myself to lies about Biden and Harris.

    I’m sure I’ll see clips of the highlights here and elsewhere.

    For your sake, I hope DeSantis gets pantsed.

  4. 4.

    dmsilev

    Nope. I figure if anything interesting happens, there will be clips available and I can subject myself to those 30 seconds afterwards rather than sit through a couple of hours of the thing in realtime.

  8. 8.

    Kay

    I usually watch both sides debates but I just can’t bring myself to waste one of the precious, waning summer nights on these assholes. I generally prefer to be happy :)

  9. 9.

    J. Arthur Crank (fka Jerzy Russian)

    I have to monitor the dryness of some recently painted surfaces, so I have to pass on the debates.

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: OMG, he totally does! From AJC (to which I may have to temporarily subscribe to follow the trial coverage):

    Atlanta bondsman Scott Hall and Trump campaign attorney John Eastman were booked at the Fulton County Jail earlier in the day and released on bond hours later.

    Hours later! It’s probably too much to hope Trump will be detained for hours-plural too?

  11. 11.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Baud: He does! I didn’t know that mug shot was posted. Did they post his height and weight too? I ask because I want to see Trump’s stats.

    Eastman is wearing a suit in that mug shot. Does every defendant get to wear their own clothes? I was hoping for an orange jump suit.

  13. 13.

    Dangerman

    Are y’all gonna watch the Repub debate tonight?

    You couldn’t pay me enough.

    OK, you COULD pay me enough, but we’re talking serious action here. And that’s just to watch, volume turned down. To watch AND listen, you couldn’t pay me enough.

    OK, you COULD ….

  14. 14.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: ​ Does every defendant get to wear their own clothes?

    It’s SOP unless they are arrested without them. They don’t get their jail clothes until the end of being processed.​

     

    eta clarification

  16. 16.

    SiubhanDuinne

    So, game-time call.

    Betty, unless your Rays game goes into extra innings*, you should be able to catch los dos. Because ¿porqué no?

    *Game starts at 6:40 EDT, debate begins at 9:00 EDT.

  18. 18.

    Princess

    I still don’t see how Trump gets away with not debating. If the National Review types were really serious about wanting another GOP candidate, they’d go after him for that.

  22. 22.

    Kay

    I’m setting up EERO for better internet in the MI house so I can work from home later. My youngest set it up for me last night but he had to do some “mirroring” thing using my phone and his phone to get it to work and then when he went to work this AM it quit so I’m having him delete whatever he set up and I’m starting over by calling tech support. That will be more fun than the GOP debate.

  26. 26.

    Uncle Jeffy

    I’m going to watch the debates for two reasons: to deny the TOFF any bit of ratings, and to watch a rare event, the collapse of a political party.

  28. 28.

    rikyrah

    Prediction

     

    Everyone in the MSM outside of Fox will claim that this signals the DeSantis pivot and comeback. They have invested over a year in fluffing him up and declaring him the GOP post -Trump.

    They aren’t giving up their investment without a fight.

  30. 30.

    jonas

    @Princess:I still don’t see how Trump gets away with not debating.

    Easy. Because he’s not a political candidate, he’s a cult leader. Messiahs don’t have to debate shit.

  32. 32.

    Anonymous At Work

    Social life conflict and I would hope that someone drop a “That’s nice” before pivoting to ignore DeSantis.

  36. 36.

    WereBear

    Big thank you to the jackal who recced the SF book, The Fourth Horseman, by Alan E Nourse.

    Pulled me right in. Kind of like finding a paperback in a used bookstore back in the day. Because it was an inexpensive Kindle book.

  37. 37.

    VOR

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:  Did they post his height and weight too? I ask because I want to see Trump’s stats.

    The Daily Mail says BetOnline has a betting line on Trump’s weight. The over/under weight is 273.5 lbs.

  40. 40.

    Scout211

    TIFG must have been hungry this morning. (bold added) Other than that, this diatribe is unreadable.  Therefore, I will post it here!

    You’re welcome.  🤣

    For the first time in three years, brave American Patriots will be able, in Court, to show how the Presidential Election of 2020 was RIGGED & STOLLEN. For those RINOS, Radical Left Democrats, Communists, Marxists, Fascists , & others who say, “Don’t Look Back, Look Forward,” they either do not want to reveal the answers because they “got away with murder,” or are FOOLS & COWARDS because we now know the answers to all of the Fraud, Irregularities, & Cheating, & WE CANNOT LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN

  41. 41.

    Ken

    @Baud: In the overnight thread, I expressed my hope that Trump’s evening booking would mean the courthouse was understaffed, so it would take a while. Also that his booking clerk was a trainee two-fingered typist.

  48. 48.

    Jinchi

    Are y’all gonna watch the Repub debate tonight?

    Hell, No.I’ve had my fill of hateful people in politics fantasizing about murdering immigrants, minorities, liberals and anyone else who disagrees with them.​​

  49. 49.

    Geminid

    This debate makes me glad I don’t have TV and I’ve used up my high speed phone data for the month. If I could, I’d probably watch the debate even though my skin crawls a little when I think about it.

    Instead, I’ll probably check out Ron Filipkowski’s Twitter feed, and also see what the sacrificial jackals here who can’t help but watch have to say.

  50. 50.

    Ken

    @Baud: I’m glad to hear they released Eastman’s mug shot, it makes it more likely Trump’s will be released. I assume the full collection of Georgia defendants will end up in The Smoking Gun‘s gallery.

    Oooh, I just had a thought for an alternative to the Balloon Juice Pet Calendar….

  53. 53.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ken: ​Oooh, I just had a thought for an alternative to the Balloon Juice Pet Calendar….

    I would pay money not to get that.

  54. 54.

    OzarkHillbilly

    An unusual suspect is being sought by police for a power outage in New Jersey: an osprey that dropped a fish on to power lines, causing a nearby community to temporarily lose their electricity.

    A fish that fell from the grip of the bird in question landed on a transponder in Sayreville, New Jersey, on 12 August, causing the coils within it to become misaligned, according to Jersey Central Power & Light, a utility company.

    This caused about 2,000 people to lose power, the company said. While animals can sometimes cause power outages, “fish are not on the list of frequent offenders”, a company spokesperson said. “We also send our thoughts to the osprey because if you’ve ever dropped your ice-cream cone at the fair, you know the feeling.”
    …………………
    Police in Sayreville, somewhat tongue in cheek, posted a suspect sketch of an osprey on Facebook, along with a picture of the fish, which was given the name Gilligan, with a “police line do not cross” tape in front of it.

    “Please let us not forget the victim in this senseless death,” the police force posted. “Gilligan was a hard working family fish. He was a father to thousands of children. The suspect was last seen flying south. If you see him do not try to apprehend him. Although he isn’t believed to be armed he may still be very dangerous.”

  55. 55.

    Jeffro

    RWNJ dad texted today to remind me and RWNJ bro that the GOP debate is tonight, and in his opinion, “…neither of the two party leaders will be the eventual nominee.”

    Thanks for that amazing bit of wishful thinking, Pops!

    (no, I didn’t actually respond of course)

    But that is where some part of the Republican mind-set is today, folks.  Rivers in Egypt and all that…

  56. 56.

    cain

    I’m going to watch the debate the way I usually watch them – by reading Tom Nichol’s twitter feed. :-)

    Way more entertaining than watching it directly.

  57. 57.

    Betty Cracker

    @Scout211: Mmmm, STOLLEN! One of the mister’s aunties is a German American lady from Buffalo, and she makes a delicious stollen at Christmas. Also these wonderful little sugary doughnuts before Easter. I never imagined a Trump typo would make me hungry!

  58. 58.

    cain

    @Jeffro: So he forsee Trump as the winner?

    I expect that the media is going to present the debates in a split screen. One screen will have the debate and the other one is a camera following Trump around.

    I bet more people will watch Trump and whatshisface from fox news than anything else.

  59. 59.

    CaseyL

    Sorry, Betty: I’m with the crew who will wait for the highlight reel.

    No way am I wasting X number of minutes of my life watching that collection of nitwits, grifters, and despots.

  60. 60.

    Jeffro

    Btw that late-night thread and National Review panic-article were great.

    The Axios article about GOP donors panicking and trying to get Youngkin or Kemp into the race, not so much.  Stay out, fake moderates!  Keep your powder dry for 2028!!

  62. 62.

    Betty Cracker

    @Omnes Omnibus: So would I, and donations to NOT get that awful calendar would both meet fundraising goals and address the paper shortage issue or whatever it is that annually snarls order fulfillment.

  63. 63.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ah, a fund-raising opportunity – send us $10/mo or else we send you a calendar. Cole will be rolling in dough

    ETA: Apparently I type (and think) more slowly than BCrack.

  64. 64.

    sdhays

    @OzarkHillbilly: Oh, god. You’ve reminded me of the 2016 debate where they almost did drop-trou and measure their dicks.

    *gag* Nope, I’ll wait for the low-lights on Thursday.

  65. 65.

    Immanentize

    @Casey

    No way am I wasting X number of minutes of my life watching that collection of nitwits, grifters, and despots.

    And yet here you are on Balloon Juice. SMH

  66. 66.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @jonas:

    Messiahs don’t have to debate shit.

    This is either the next rotating tag or the new BAUD!20XX! campaign slogan.

  67. 67.

    JPL

    Chesbro just signed in.   The AJC has a live feed following those that have appeared.   All I can think about is the nursery song The ants go marching.

  68. 68.

    Jeffro

    @cain: I took it to mean that somehow, someway, the GOP will be delivered from having trump as its nominee (and presumably, something bad will happen to Biden or he’ll choose not to run)

    RWNJ dad and people like him have been so bombarded with “Biden is AAAAAANCIENT” and “Biden is INCOMMMMMPETENT” pieces in their media outlets that they feel like anyone can beat Biden (and/or, Biden could keel over at any second).

    They also – remember, projection is their #1 thing – think that we don’t have any sort of ‘bench’ on our side.

    So…lots of magical thinking going on there…

    J6 was the primary reason I quit talking politics with my RWNJ dad and bro, but honestly the other reason was that their information sources are all bad, and they really have nothing to offer in terms of insights, much less any thoughts on how to make the country better.  (Of course not – they’re Republicans).

  70. 70.

    cmorenc

    Tonight’s GOP debate ain’t going to exactly be Lincoln v Douglas.  So I’m going to give it a hard pass.

  75. 75.

    sdhays

    @rikyrah: Not if DeSantis poops himself (and he almost certainly will). I think the MSM/Fox is already looking for someone else to talk about.

    Maybe Vivek! Make Christie! Maybe Tim Scott!

    *yawn

  79. 79.

    Kay

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I think he did the “mirroring” (or whatever!) because my phone is old w/older version operating system. I keep phones longer than some people – I get used to them and I like a smaller one. But I don’t want to be behind a password on his phone in some jerry rigged – nightmare.

  81. 81.

    Betty Cracker

    @rikyrah: You’re probably right. I remember back in 2000 how the media helpfully lowered the debate bar for GWB and then declared his performance surprisingly good.

    I’ve also seen a few “DeSantis is relatable to awkward people” pieces in MSM recently, so now that the bar is basically subterranean, media fluffers could declare him the winner as long as he doesn’t drool or crap his pants.

  82. 82.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @CaseyL:

    nitwits, grifters, and despots.

    I read this and my mind said, “say, weren’t there some great 19th century words that would be fun to expand that list?” I feel like there were. I need to do some research.

    Meanwhile here are some Shakespearean ones.

  83. 83.

    Ken

    @sdhays: Oh, god. You’ve reminded me of the 2016 debate where they almost did drop-trou and measure their dicks.

    25 Quatloos that at least one candidate mentions Hunter Biden’s dick pics.

    10 Quatloos that at least one brings a pic blown up to poster size, possibly borrowed from MT Greene.

  85. 85.

    marklar

    Debate tip: I get too agitated watching Republicans lie during debates for live viewing, but I always have The Guardian’s (US edition) web-page open and check in every 5 minutes or so.  They do a great job summarizing key moments, and provide nearly immediate fact-checking and context to what is being spewed by the candidates.

  87. 87.

    mrmoshpotato

    Are y’all gonna watch the Repub debate tonight?

    I would rather hate watch a Cardinals-Brewers game or a Yankees-Trashstros game.

    Go Twins!

  89. 89.

    NotMax

    And of course Dolt 45 now says he wants to surrender for arrest “on prime time.”

    So he can brag about the ratings.

  92. 92.

    Ocotillo

    If Christie slay DeSantis he will become the Florida Man stopper.  He deposed of Lil’ Marco last time he ran.

  93. 93.

    BC in Illinois

    There is no reason for me to watch a Fox News presentation of the thoughts, prepared “ad libs,” and lies of eight people, three of whom I might recognize if I passed them on the street, NONE of whom have any chance to become President.

    Like @Baud:

    I’m sure I’ll see clips of the highlights here and elsewhere.

    But that will be tomorrow. Tonight, Mrs. BC and I will probably catch up on a few episodes of “Leverage.”

    + + +

    And I have a 20-page legal article to read in preparation for the Monday meeting of the Jefferson Township [StL County] Democratic Club. The speaker — Gregory Magarian — is a Washington University prof who I heard maybe five years ago. He has an interesting take on 1st Amendment vs. 2nd Amendment. The 1st Amendment — speech, press, assembly, petition/protest, living our religion as we choose — THAT is how we influence the actions of the government we have chosen. Not sending armed thugs to school board meetings and health departments. I’m way over simplifying it, but that’s why I’m going to read the paper before the meeting.

  94. 94.

    TaMara

    (and we’re in a series with the worst team in baseball at the moment, though you never know),

    Hey!  [[[looks around]]] Oh, okay…that might be true, but still!  Damn, I wish the Monforts would sell the team to someone who actually cares about/knows baseball.

    I’ll skip the debate and instead watch Maddow and crew mock them mercilessly afterward.

  95. 95.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Immanentize:

    O/T, but I want to thank you for pointing me to “(Rock a) Side Pony” by Lake Street Dive. I’ve listened to it several times. Fun!

  96. 96.

    mrmoshpotato

    @marklar:

    Debate tip: I get too agitated watching Republicans lie spew sound out of their speaking holes during debates for live viewing 

    Fixed. :)

  97. 97.

    Immanentize

    Gov. Doug Burgum of North Dakota injured himself playing basketball with his staff on Tuesday and was taken to an emergency room, potentially jeopardizing his appearance at Wednesday’s first Republican presidential primary debate.t.co/EHbT7xDaIg— The New York Times (@nytimes) August 23, 2023

     

    Well, there goes my reason for tuning in…

  99. 99.

    SFAW

    The likelihood that it gets grisly for DeSantis is high, and though it doesn’t speak well of my character, I would enjoy that.

    I beg to disagree, young lady.

  106. 106.

    MattF

    No debate watching for me. Staged events are boring— combine that with lies and whining, and I’m not interested, not one bit.

    OT factoid: my rep, Jamie Raskin, got 80.18% of the vote in 2022. Once upon a time, MD 8th district elected moderate-to-liberal Republicans, but that was then.

  107. 107.

    Ken

    @NotMax: And of course Dolt 45 now says he wants to surrender for arrest “on prime time.”

    Now I definitely want that two-fingered typist as booking clerk. Not only will Trump be fuming, but every cable news channel that shows a shot of the empty courthouse steps for the full two three five hour process will look like idiots. Moreso than usual, I mean.

    And God help any broadcast channel that pulls a “Heidi” and interrupts Betty’s baseball game every fifteen minutes with “breaking news” and that same shot of the empty courthouse steps….

  108. 108.

    gene108

    The Prerogative of Presidents.

    The leader for each parties 2024 presidential nomination, both having served as president, are staying aloof from engaging their respective challengers.

    Donald Trump skipping this night’s Republican debate is much like Joe Biden’s refusal to engage with his primary challengers, Mariann Williamson and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.  Both candidates appear to want to stay above the fray of potential bruising primary battles.

  110. 110.

    pat

    and his head wobbles around like a bladder on a stick.

    Just wanted to see that again.  I chuckled.

    Just got here, now to look at the other comments and probably get a couple more chuckles.  Too damned hot and humid to do anything outside in western WI.  How does anyone work in that sun??

  111. 111.

    JPL

    At least the book that I am currently reading is less depressing than the listening to the republicans debate, of that I’m sure.   They’ll be discussing the appropriate amount of torture to use on immigrants at the border.

    BTW The book that I’m reading is Dennis Lehane’s Small Mercies.  

  116. 116.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @NotMax: ​

    And of course Dolt 45 now says he wants to surrender for arrest “on prime time.”

    So he can brag about the ratings.

    I’m pretty sure that he will be treated like a normal suspect regardless. Cameras will be allowed wherever they are normally allowed, which I do not know. My recollection is that he is free to surrender whenever he wants, 24 hour a day, and doesn’t need to book a time. I suspect that he won’t be able to make the spectacle of it that he wants. The media isn’t all that interested in his speeches these days, assuming there is even anyone he can give one to. His arraignments haven’t drawn crowds of supporters so far.

  117. 117.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @TaMara:

    Damn, I wish the Monforts would sell the team to someone who actually cares about/knows baseball.

    Had season tickets with a small group from inception to 2010 and went to a few games per season after that until about 2017. The owners seem to want to cultivate a good player or two for trading and rely on attendance from the big name teams when they come to town. It’s a shame.

  118. 118.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    The tl;dr version:

    I want to see Trump’s mug shot if he has to take off his makeup. I don’t know if that’s required or not, but I have reason to believe that without the makeup he is an absolute horror show.

  119. 119.

    Redshift

    Oh, hell no. I don’t even enjoy watching debates involving people I like. (It’s one of the few things that make me anxious and tense.) I’ll catch the lowlights afterward.

  123. 123.

    Bupalos

    McClanahan is a serious blow but that Rays team seems…plucky? Presuming the Guardians’ rough schedule finally finishes off our vain hopes to continue hanging in this trash division, they’ll be vying for my disappointed affections, along with Toronto. It’s awfully nice to see the East “upside down.”

  125. 125.

    Betty Cracker

    Speaking of books, I am reading a memoir called “Gaters, Skeeters And Malary: Recollections Of A Pioneer Florida Judge.” It was published in the 1950s by a man who arrived in my county as a young man in the 1890s. His spelling improves!

  126. 126.

    Redshift

    @Frankensteinbeck: The one interesting thing with Georgia allowing cameras but just at the trial but for all the mundane procedures is that we’ll get to see him very much not in charge and doing what he’s told, instead of just a pretend-president motorcade arriving and departing.

  127. 127.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Jeffro:

    honestly the other reason was that their information sources are all bad, and they really have nothing to offer in terms of insights, much less any thoughts on how to make the country better.  (Of course not – they’re Republicans).

    I’m starting to think that the only way we should ever interact with these sort of Republicans (not almost-sensible ones who can maybe be persuaded) is to just openly mock them and the bullshit they believe. Like: you wanna talk politics, fine, but I’m not gonna hold back and I’m gonna clown all these idiots you worship and I’m not gonna pull any punches. And if that makes you feel stupid, well that’s on you.

    Obviously, this is only the kind of approach you could take with a friend or family member that you know won’t pull a gun or something. But honestly, not talking politics hasn’t worked. Treating them with kid gloves and pretending their beliefs are reasonable hasn’t worked. So fuck it, I’m all out of ideas. But I’m also tired of pretending their ideas are sensible and worth listening to. Most will just double-down on their bullshit, but some will question their premises. After all, it wasn’t mealy-mouthed, kid-glove treatment that prompted me to finally understand how wrong I was on issues of Race and Gender, it was reading Anti-Racists and Feminists repeatedly and brutally mocking people who shared my mistaken beliefs that finally made me have my “Oh shit” moment and change my views/stances.

  128. 128.

    Betty Cracker

    @Bupalos: And the Franco mess, good gourd! Though his replacement hit a grand slam yesterday, so we were saying “Wander who?”

  130. 130.

    Steeplejack

    @Betty Cracker:

    “He’s William Shakespeare and Vince Lombardi rolled into one.”

    Holy shit, I thought you were snarking. Some idiot actually said that! Named and shamed: Ward Baker, senior adviser to Marsha Blackburn.

  133. 133.

    Old School

    @Immanentize:

    Gov. Doug Burgum of North Dakota injured himself playing basketball with his staff on Tuesday and was taken to an emergency room, potentially jeopardizing his appearance at Wednesday’s first Republican presidential primary debate.

    He’s going a pull a Willis Reed!

  134. 134.

    Steeplejack

    Anybody have a “one neat trick” on how to force a Kindle to index a book? I downloaded a book last week, and it never got indexed. Searches kept returning nothing. I have done the Google recommendation—press the power button for 30 seconds, let the Kindle reset, remove the book and download it again—and now it shows up correctly as not indexed, but there it remains. I can’t find any way to force indexing

    ETA: Okay, I restarted the Kindle again, and the book disappeared from the “not indexed” list, but it’s still not indexed; searches return nothing

    And I checked a couple of other books, and searches work fine in them.

  137. 137.

    RaflW

    I plan to check Xitter a few times during, and read reputable blogs after the debate. I do not wish to subject myself to the immigrant-bashing, LGBTQ panic, and assorted “woke, woke, woke” nonsense.

    It will be debilitatingly stupid. And largely pointless, other than getting to see how debased and irrelevant to normal life the Reputation political process has become.

    Plus I’m at a friend’s cabin on one of far northern Wisconsin’s lovely lakes this week! Why discombobulate when I can pontoon or just have a beverage and hear the loons call (oh, I guess it starts at 8pm CDT, aka sunset, and while I do occasionally pontoon on our lake at night, this one has shoals of rocks so … probably just gonna not watch).

  138. 138.

    Bupalos

    @TaMara: I appreciated the Gazette going all-in on this earlier this spring:

    “I think we can play .500 ball,’’ the Roxhead proudly proclaimed earlier this month at the annual Northern Colorado Friends of Baseball breakfast event in Greeley where he still has a few friends. As always, the stench from the Monfort family’s old slaughterhouse and the smell of Dick’s quotes waft into Denver on a windy day.

  139. 139.

    Wapiti

    @NotMax: Huh. Well, put him line behind 20 other alleged miscreants. He can wait. Have a talkative, but safe, black guy right in front of him, and another talkative black guy right behind him. (Plainclothes cops, maybe?) They can talk past him and his detail if Trump doesn’t want to engage.

  140. 140.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    I’d love to watch, but, well, I’ve been putting off an appointment to get myself trepanned and I really should see to that.

    (No, but seriously, I’m on Eastern European Daylight Time, which puts air-time for the debate at about stupid o’clock in the morning, and besides, the only way any of them would get my vote would be if the RNC zombified my corpse and ordered it to vote for them, and because I wouldn’t put it past the RNC to do just that, I’m leaving a note in my will to have my body cremated and the ashes separated and scattered on two separate continents.)

  142. 142.

    Paul in KY

    @Baud: I want him to do a good ‘stretching primary mandibles to swallow prey’ laugh.  That will weird out alot of the poor devils that have to endure it.

  143. 143.

    kindness

    I couldn’t stomach watching the Republican debate.  I’ll get the cliff notes version afterwards.  Much better for my disposition.

  147. 147.

    JPL

    The first question should go to Gov. DeSantis and he should be asked whether or not he agrees with this sentiment..     NSFW

  149. 149.

    RaflW

    @Princess: Really shows how little relevance the National Review has any more. Sure they are still the barometer of elite cabal thinking, but the MAGA horde don’t give a hoot about what former Bushies and their friends think.

    It amazes me how much of the realignment the conservative establishment just refuses to acknowledge has happened. NRO types not howling about the debate absence probably reflects their tacit knowledge that they’re powerless, but also points out how useless they are.

  150. 150.

    Spanish Moss

    I should watch, but I don’t think I could bear it. Years ago I would watch Republican stuff to see what they were up to and get their perspective, but I can’t anymore now that they have gone off the deep end. I stopped after Trump won, it is too upsetting.

  151. 151.

    prostratedragon

    Frankensteinbeck@116: Wonder if he thinks people didn’t turn out for the others because they were during working hours.

  152. 152.

    Mike in NC

    I don’t have the stomach to watch Republicans lie and bullshit for an hour or longer, but will keep an eye out for highlights (or should I say lowlights?). It will definitely be cringeworthy.

  154. 154.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Zero interest in watching the debate.  I could barely stomach the frothing hatred and lies of every GOP candidate in 2016 and they have only gone so much further off the rails that I can’t even watch/listen to their shit.  It just makes my blood boil too much.

  156. 156.

    Omnes Omnibus

    So the Trumpies and the DeSantites apparently had dinner at the same place in Milwaukee last night.  Downtown Milwaukee has a lot of interesting restaurants, but they picked an overpriced steakhouse, Rare.  It is locally owned, but the small chain does have a D.C. location.  Christ, you can get a good but overpriced steak anywhere.

  157. 157.

    Jackie

    Dark Brandon is trolling the FAUX News website all day today 🤭

    “”Dark Brandon, President Joe Biden’s satirical alter-ego, is making a bold appearance on the day of the first 2024 Republican debate — not only on billboards in Milwaukee, where eight GOP candidates are set to take the stage on Wednesday evening, but in digital ads plastering the homepage of FoxNews.com,” People reports.”

    ”“From midnight on Wednesday until 11:59 p.m., the internet meme-turned-campaign tool is taking over Fox News’ website with pro-choice ads touting Biden’s mission to defend abortion rights, one year after the conservative Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade.””

    I took a peek and there he was! I hope Dark Brandon political ads show up tonight during the debate, too!

  158. 158.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @RaflW: Your loons are much better than the loons on the GOP debate stage.

    Love the sound of loons on lakes at dusk.  Enjoy :)

  159. 159.

    Paul in KY

    @NotMax: ‘And when I’m President, I’ll stop that woking woker Hunter Biden in his woking tracks and ensure America no longer is be-woked by the Commie Liberal wokers and their woking!!’

  160. 160.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Redshift:

    Georgia allowing cameras but just at the trial

    All bets are off on Trump’s behavior at the trials.  He has never been in this situation before.  He doesn’t attend the civil suits.  The only criminal suits he’s been in were for his companies and he didn’t have to attend.  Having to sit around for hours listening to a prosecutor is not the same as listening to your lawyers settle technical issues.​
    EDIT – What I’m sayin’ is, cameras in the courtroom could capture quite a show, and not the kind Trump expects.

  162. 162.

    Elizabelle

    @WereBear:  I’m reading The Fourth Horseman too.

    It was Ken that recommended it.  A bit dated with the sexism:  a top female character, Monique, does not get a second name until Chapter 23.  Monique:  centerfold or Ph.D. biochemist?  You decide. (She has violet eyes.)

    They’re flying 747s and DC-10s, Eastern Airlines.

    Reading about a plague that takes out millions of Americans?

    What better to do in the face of the political version of it (tonight’s debate)?

  163. 163.

    Bupalos

    @Betty Cracker: You guys wake up every morning and have to spend an hour scraping off the fresh hitting talent that spontaneously developed overnight. Rays and hitters, Guards and pitchers.

  165. 165.

    RaflW

    Oh, and since we’re talking about Deathsantis and his ilk, New College apparently banned orientation leaders from wearing Pride or BLM pins. I guess there’s some pushback.
    I’m a little shocked that students (presumably the orientations are led by older students) who are pro-pride and pro-BLM haven’t all fled. But it can be tough to leave even that sining ship, I guess.
    I feel genuinely bad for young people who might be Jrs/Srs and have had the rug just so abruptly, stupidly, and vindictively pulled out from under them. Bad and mad.

  166. 166.

    Steeplejack

    Also liked Pierce’s side quip:

    “And, Lord help us, Mark McKinnon is what happens when you put a ten-gallon hat on a five-gallon head.” Illustration.

  168. 168.

    Suzanne

    I want to be watching if Christie or someone drops the anvil that sinks Rancid DeMeatball below the sauce line.

    Agreed. Christie is entertaining to watch. Terrible at good governance, of course.

    I might watch.

  170. 170.

    Ken

    @Omnes Omnibus: So the Trumpies and the DeSantites apparently had dinner at the same place […] they picked an overpriced steakhouse, Rare.

    I pity the waiters who had to tell the chef that table 1 wanted their beef tenderloins well-done with ketchup, and table 2 wanted them raw with extra baby sauce.

  174. 174.

    RaflW

    Noah Berlatsky, writing about TFG’s power to terrify, expressed as announcing just this past Sunday that he’s skipping the debate. “The GOP debate shows that Trump’s hostile takeover is complete. He’s thoroughly humiliated everyone involved, including Fox News and the RNC”:

    Trump running third party is an absolute nightmare scenario for Republicans. Trump’s hardcore supporters are about a third of the Republican electorate. If he ran as an independent, and his rabid base abandoned the GOP, Democrats would probably be favored in states like Texas, Florida, Missouri, and Ohio, and competitive even in the deep south.

    By not taking the pledge, Trump is reminding the RNC, and his Republican rivals, that he’s entirely willing to throw the election to Biden, and to destroy the GOP for a cycle, or conceivably forever.

    The existential terror of such a scenario has led Republicans to a policy of what Bernstein calls “strict appeasement.” The RNC is afraid to chastise Trump or punish him in any way, lest he take his voters and put a wrecking ball through the party’s presidential and down-ballot chances. And his rivals are afraid to criticize him for the same reason. They know that he has the unilateral power to deny them the presidency, even if they somehow win the nomination.

    I’d add that it’s only a hostile takeover in the sense that management (McConnell, Romney, most of the former Bushies, etc) are opposed. Rank and file are quite happy about the putsch.

  175. 175.

    Kay

    New Biden student loan plan today. Could apply to 20 million people

    Specifically, the SAVE plan will:

    • Cut payments on undergraduate loans in half. Borrowers with undergraduate loans will have their payments reduced from 10% to 5% of their discretionary income. Those who have undergraduate and graduate loans will pay a weighted average between 5% and 10% of their income based upon the original principal balances of their loans.
    • Bring many borrowers’ loan payments to $0 per month. A borrower’s monthly payment amount is based on their discretionary income—defined under the SAVE plan as the difference between their adjusted gross income (AGI) and 225% of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Poverty Guideline amount for their family size. This means a single borrower who makes about $15 an hour will not have to make any monthly payments. Borrowers earning above that amount would save around $1,000 a year on their payments compared to other IDR plans. The Department of Education estimates that more than 1 million additional low-income borrowers will qualify for a $0 payment. This will allow them to focus on food, rent, and other basic needs instead of loan payments.
    • Ensure that borrowers never see their balance grow as long as they keep up with their required payments. The Department of Education will stop charging any monthly interest not covered by the borrower’s payment on the SAVE plan. As a result, borrowers who pay what they owe on this plan will no longer see their loans grow due to unpaid interest. For example, if a borrower has $50 in interest that accumulates each month and their payment is $30 per month under the new SAVE plan, the remaining $20 would not be charged as long as they make their $30 monthly payment. The Department of Education estimates that 70 percent of borrowers who were on an IDR plan before the payment pause would stand to benefit from this change. Coinciding with the launch of the SAVE plan, the White House Council of Economic Advisers released a new blog post that models how the income benefit of the SAVE plan could prevent a lower-income borrowers’ balance from increasing by nearly 78% over a 20-year repayment period.
    • Provide early forgiveness for low-balance borrowers. IDR plans require all borrowers, even those who only attended school for a single term, to repay their loans for at least 20 or 25 years before receiving forgiveness of any outstanding balance. Under the SAVE plan, borrowers whose original principal balances were $12,000 or less will receive forgiveness after 120 payments (the equivalent of 10 years in repayment). For each additional $1,000 borrowed above that level, the plan adds an additional 12 payments (equivalent of 1 year of payments) for up to a maximum of 20 or 25 years. For example, if a borrower’s original principal balance is $14,000, they will see forgiveness after 12 years. Payments made previously (before 2024) and those made going forward will count toward these maximum forgiveness timeframes.

    The benefits of the SAVE plan will be particularly critical for low- and middle-income borrowers, community college students, and borrowers who work in public service. Overall, the Department of Education estimates that the plan will have the following effects for future cohorts of borrowers compared to the IDR plan, called the Revised Pay-As-You-Earn (REPAYE) plan:

     

  176. 176.

    Bupalos

    @Immanentize: I don’t know from dead blow hammers, but when showed up to help/learn framing with a sustainable builder here, they took one look at my generic hammer and gave me a sad look, long speech, and put the pro-consensus framing hammer in my hand. And they were of course right. Which is to say “go get what the pro’s use.”

  178. 178.

    Bupalos

    @RaflW: This was true in 2016 as well, it was really underappreciated when they did the pledge thing on the debate stage and Trump was the one candidate refusing it, the die was pretty much cast. Folks were still too under the sway of “but I can’t imagine it so it can’t happen” to notice.

  179. 179.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Bupalos: ​

    My dad did everything with a 1 lb Sears and Roebuck hammer and that should be good enough for me!

    He really did, actually. That and a crosscut saw. Only power tool he had was the electric drill.

    So I feel slightly guilty when I buy fancier tools, including power tools. But I can’t cut a straight line with a hand saw. And my general purpose hammer is a 2-pounder I think, which I love. Is that a framing hammer?

  181. 181.

    MisterDancer

    @Jackie: “From midnight on Wednesday until 11:59 p.m., the internet meme-turned-campaign tool is taking over Fox News’ website with pro-choice ads touting Biden’s mission to defend abortion rights”

    No malarkey, that’s fuckin’ brilliant. And I say this as someone who thinks “messaging” is usually not a key determinant for elections in the way a lot of folx talk about it.

  182. 182.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Princess:

    I still don’t see how Trump gets away with not debating.

    Because he’s got such a huge lead, and everyone else is in or near single digits.  He doesn’t need to be there, and he knows it.  He can just act as if he’s above the whole thing, and he knows that’s the best way to play it.

    Gotta admit I like this answer too, though:

    @jonas:

    Easy. Because he’s not a political candidate, he’s a cult leader. Messiahs don’t have to debate shit.

  183. 183.

    Bupalos

    @Immanentize: According to these guys, Milwaukee 19oz hickory. Not that there weren’t a bunch of other hammers there that had their own character and price ranges… but that was their “if you have one generic hammer” one.

  184. 184.

    Brachiator

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    RE: OT: India has successfully landed a spacecraft on the moon.

    That has to sting in Russia.

    Russia has been left behind. Now, India and China are major space faring countries.

    The downside is how this achievement might reinforce ultra nationalism in India.

  189. 189.

    RaflW

    @Paul in KY: ‘Round here, us libs drink Minocqua Brewing.* They’re the very liberal, very vocal, and very ‘in the crosshairs of Oneida County‘ neighborhood brewery.

    *I’m sober, but we buy it to serve friends. Looks like they have a cherry soda coming out this Friday (and already have a canned, cold coffee drink). I think the owner is looking for ways to survive if the beer business really does get shuttered.

  190. 190.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @WereBear: If you can find it, Nourse’s Trouble On Titan is also worth a read. (I had a copy of the original Winston hardback when I was a kid.) Mining colony orbiting Saturn, digging ore vital to the economy of the Solar System, oppressed by absentee owners and ready to walk out; protagonist’s father, assigned to sort the situation on site, takes his YA son along. A very very different book, I would presume, from The Fourth Horseman – and not at all the sort you’d expect from 1950s-era juvenile SF.

  191. 191.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @MisterDancer: It’s kind of wild how many people underestimated the saliency of abortion as an issue that voters care about.  Maybe it’s just a matter of not being able to really imagine the loss of Roe, while we still had it, even though it was clearly in the cross-hairs of SCOTUS from the moment Trump was elected.  I admit I underestimated it too.  I cared deeply about abortion rights and loved anyone who champions them, but I didn’t think it would be the winning issue for Dems.  I bought into the notions that Progressives pushed that it was actually: Medicare For All, The Green New Deal, Student Loan Forgiveness etc., that voters cared about most.  And maybe that was somewhat true before Dobbs (and anti-CRT, anti-LGBTQ bullshit).  But that’s definitely not the case now and I think anyone who is still insists that Dems should be spending less time talking about Abortion Rights and more time on Student Loans needs to humbly take a seat.  Especially those who were dismissive of Hillary, Kamala, Gilibrand, Klobuchar etc. when they tried to center Abortion in their campaigns.

  192. 192.

    RaflW

    @Old School: Well, at least now I know what job he has that makes him think he’s qualified to run (and in fairness, Gov. of N.D. is at least a qualification, what t.f does Ramaswamy have). I was puzzled when I saw this guy was in the eight. Seated at the far end did suggest he was polling last, but I just totally drew a blank on who he is.

  193. 193.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Emails reveal Secret Service contacts with Oath Keepers:

    Internal Secret Service emails obtained by CREW show special agents in close communication with Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes, while failing to acknowledge the group’s ties to white nationalists and clashes with law enforcement.

    In September 2020, a Secret Service agent sent an email to others within the agency, informing them that he had just spoken to Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes about an upcoming visit by then-President Trump to Fayetteville, NC. The agent, who referred to himself as “the unofficial liaison to the Oath Keepers (inching towards official),” described the group as “primarily retired law enforcement/former military members who are very pro-LEO [law enforcement officer] and Pro Trump. Their stated purpose is to provide protection and medical attention to Trump supporters if they come under attack by leftist groups.” He went on to say that Rhodes, “had specific questions and wanted to liaison [sic] with our personnel” and shared Rhodes’s cell phone number.

  194. 194.

    Bupalos

    @UncleEbeneezer: I can agree with this, but for me I think it depends whether we’re talking within a framing of motivational political tactics to elect dems, or about turning around the degeneration of our democracy, or about providing for the general welfare.

    My top issue as a matter of governance that has the broadest importance and toxic reach into all aspects of American life is climate change. But I recognize that this has been, and seems to remain, a tactical zero, because so much of the coalition needed for a governing majority is actively or passively opposed.

    Tactically I think the message for dems should be to look to the issues cutting across the broadest constituency. Students will always be like 15%, people without medical care similar. Women are 51%.
    Climate change will gradually work its way well past that figure. It’s very sadly going to be our #1 market for growth, tactically speaking.

  198. 198.

    wjca

    @TaMara:

    (and we’re in a series with the worst team in baseball at the moment, though you never know),

    Hey!  [[[looks around]]] Oh, okay…that might be true, but still!  Damn, I wish the Monforts would sell the team to someone who actually cares about/knows baseball.

    From which I deduce that you’re a Royals fan.  You have my sympathy.  Must be painful to lose two in a row to a AAA team, which is what the A’s are these days.

    P.S. We actually have a worse owner, too.

  199. 199.

    piratedan

    Questions we’d like to hear the answers to:

    “Taking the position that most of you have regarding the indictments of former President Trump, which pornstar would you choose to pay off illegally via your campaign funds to sleep with you?”

  201. 201.

    KrackenJack

    @WereBear: ​
      Searched for that on the local library website. They don’t have it. Found this, though:

    The Bladerunner (1974)
    Nourse, Alan Edward, 1928-1992

    In 2014 seventeen-year-old Billy Gimp risks great danger as a procurer of illegal medical supplies for a skilled surgeon determined to provide health care for people considered unqualified for legal medical aid.

  202. 202.

    Geminid

    @Immanentize: Harbor Freight ought to be a good enough source for a dead blow hammer. It’s a simply made tool. I’ve gotten good use out of their 5 lb.version, but you will probably get a lighter one which will be good for wood working projects.

  203. 203.

    brantl

    @Baud: That’ what it was, I couldn’t put my finger on it. Also, Bachmann had Lemur eyes, not faraway eyes, unless “faraway” means comatose.

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