Donald J. Trump was entitled to receive a jury trial in his NYC civil fraud case.
While Trump wanted a trial by jury, HIS attorneys DID NOT correctly fill out court paperwork.
Instead, Trump will receive a bench trial solely decided by a judge he's repeatedly attacked. pic.twitter.com/MW4gemybr1
— Stephanie Winston Wolkoff (@SWinstonWolkoff) October 2, 2023
No, really. Per the Messenger, which seems to have been first on this story:
… It’s unclear whether a jury trial would have been available under New York Executive Law 63(12), the statute under which the case was brought, and may legal experts believe it likely would not have been. But the judge noted that neither side litigated the issue.
Earlier this year, New York Attorney Letitia James filed a form with a checkmark next to the field: “Trial without a jury.” Trump’s legal team didn’t file a corresponding form, and the former president may have regretted that inaction ever since.
Long before the trial, Engoron found Trump in contempt of court for discovery violations in the investigation that preceded the AG’s lawsuit. Last week, the judge found Trump, his family members and his business associates liable for a massive fraud and ordered the dissolution of Trump’s New York business empire, an action known as the “corporate death penalty.”
Trump lashed out against him extensively at a makeshift press conference outside the courtroom, calling for Engoron to be “investigated for what he’s done is undervaluing these properties.”…
Engoron will decide whether to issue an order disgorging hundreds of millions of dollars in allegedly ill-gotten gains — and barring him from ever serving as a director of a New York corporation.
When you realize that the attractive lawyer who flattered you on TV is horrified bc she passed on a jury trial…
…and the lawyer who made you pay his full fee up front can't stop smiling.#MondayMood pic.twitter.com/K5S9K6Ok7T
— John Fugelsang (@JohnFugelsang) October 2, 2023
Alison Rose
Hahahahahahahaha
he sucks and they’re all stupid
SiubhanDuinne
🎵🎶 Something for everyone…. 🎶🎵
SiubhanDuinne
@Alison Rose:
Can I just nominate he sucks and they’re all stupid for a rotating tag in perpetuity?
Suzanne
Seriously, if you were trying to write a farce, you couldn’t do better than this.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
A comedy tonight?
hells littlest angel
Just to clarify: Trump’s lawyers DID fill out the paperwork correctly. They were required to check one of two boxes, and that’s what they did.
NotMax
@NotMax
Now feel a right twit, not having read the headline before posting.
SpaceUnit
I’m starting to wonder if Obama wasn’t playing his long game at the Correspondents Dinner.
JaneE
Only the best people. A jury of New Yorkers may not have been bamboozled so easily as Trump seems to think, though.
SiubhanDuinne
@NotMax:
That’s it! You know your Broadway, you do.
SiubhanDuinne
@NotMax:
Familiar, peculiar.
geg6
IANAL, but even I know that if there’s a form that asks if you want a bench or jury trial, you have to pick one and if it is different than you adversary, you then argue that point before the trial can start. You don’t just NOT answer the question. I thought the guy who is grinning in that last image was supposed to be some kind of conservative super lawyer. Apparently, he must be because he got his $$ up front, but Trump is not getting his money’s worth.
This has been fucking hilarious so far and Trump hasn’t even taken the stand. 🤣🤣🤣
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SiubhanDuinne: I know this song because WGN used to use it to promote their lineup of syndicated reruns in ’70s, especially the Dick Van Dyke Show. Didn’t see A Funny Thing Happened until Netflix brought me a red envelope. It still makes me picture Morey Amsterdam making a goofy face
sab
@SpaceUnit: I don’t think he or those broken Central and South American families think so. He probably thought we had guardrails (aka voters) in place.
Geminid
A friend sent me some video of Trump’s remarks to reporters when he returned to court after lunch. He was very snarly. I think the pressure is showing.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
Fortunate enough to see Zero Mostel in the original Broadway run.
Baud
@sab:
Yep.
OzarkHillbilly
@SpaceUnit: If so, I’ve got a bone or 3,492 to pick with him.
SpaceUnit
@sab:
Yeah, but it would awesome if Trump is wondering about it.
geg6
In other classic GOP clown car news:
talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/gaetz-going-down-the-tubes
Josh Marshall despises him. It comes through loud and clear on his podcast.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@SiubhanDuinne: no royal curse, no Trojan horse …
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@NotMax: Lucky person! Must have been amazing to see Zero Mostel live in anything.
There’s a story I heard that the show was flopping in tryouts, and they added “Comedy Tonight” with all the little slapstick bits to tell the audience it was a comedy, because they got all confused by the togas and thought it was serious.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@NotMax: me too! I was too young to get all the jokes, but it’s a great memory.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
sorta speaking of Broadway: Listening to MSNBC, they just played a clip of trump on the Oprah program back in the late 80s claiming that trump tower was the number 1 tourist attraction in NYC
Mike in NC
But Fat Bastard only hires the best people! The problem is he neglects to actually pay them.
tokyokie
I find the irony of tifg’s legal team leaving a box unchecked when he collected millions in credit-card drafts from donors who failed to check the box(es) to keep the donation a one-time transaction to be especially delicious.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It will be again when the Trump Crimes Walking Tours begin operations.
SiubhanDuinne
@NotMax:
Oh, lucky you! I saw one of Richard Kiley’s final NYC performances in Man of La Mancha, but only saw A Funny Thing years later in an amateur production in Tampa.
Baud
@geg6:
Nice.
NotMax
Just wanted to see this from Dolt 45’s longest-serving chief of staff again.
lamh36
Evening BJ!
Has anyone seen Elemental? The last PIXAR movie? It was sooo good.
geg6
And I cannot express how much I adore John Oliver. Thank FSM that the writers strike is over. That is all.
Jeffro
I hope they keep asking him questions and airing the video of his responses!
trump unfiltered makes a damn good case for re-electing Joe Biden, especially with the normies and blessed ‘independents’
Baud
@NotMax:
“But I’d still vote for him over Biden.”
like a metaphor
Attacking a judge before your trial is about as stupid as pissing off the waiter before they bring out your food. Unless you happen to enjoy the flavor of someone else’s spit in your soup.
tokyokie
@NotMax:
You were also fortunate enough not to see the last performance of the revival with Phil Silvers in which he suffered what proved to be a fatal stroke onstage
(I recognized the allusion from having seen the Dick Lester film version, which features BOTH Zero Mostel and Phil Silvers, as well as Michael Hordern, Jack Gilford, and Buster Keaton!)
Scout211
From NBC trial recap:
I get the feeling that Trump is not familiar with New York State laws in banking or finance. Hmmmm
A jackal has already posted this one downstairs, but it’s worth a repeat.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
I had initially thought that this was one of those quirky chancery/equity proceedings where jury possibilities weren’t part of the mix due to the fact that it was simply a set of corporate disgorgements with large fines, and that nobody would be dumb or sloppy enough to skip the ask if it were available.
Alina Habba isn’t going to have enough coverage to deal with this, even if she’s got $5M in coverage (which I suspect would be the max available to someone with her level and type of practice). She needs to call her carrier tonight and leave a message.
She’s been obviously out of her depth, and was clearly only selected because she’s physically appealing. You can see the horror on her face and the body language when it’s obvious that she’s just realized that Engoron threw her under the bus by informing Trump that no jury was asked for.
She is a textbook legal ethics case on NOT taking on something that’s beyond your current level of skill, nor can be quickly or easily learned up. I’d feel bad for her if she weren’t so obviously a smug f**k.
Jeffro
btw/fwiw: I don’t think trump wanted this case in front of a jury.
I think he wants to be able to appeal the eventual solely-judge-derived penalty to the courts, and to keep milking his supporters for cash, and hope that his buddies on SCOTUS find some reason to overturn the eventual result
(narrator: they won’t…they know the GOP desperately needs to rid itself of this parasite)
Roger Moore
@hells littlest angel:
Also, Trump lost the last week on summary judgment, which means the judge decided there weren’t any disputed issues of fact that a jury would need to rule on. So his business would still be facing the corporate death penalty even if he had chosen a jury trial.
Baud
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
I’ve been there.
Old Dan and Little Ann
@lamh36: I’ve seen it a few times. My young one especially liked that one line. I’m paraphrasing. “If you just got off your lazy ash!”
It’s got great music, too.
: )
scav
Oh, come on, his PAPERWORK is PERFECT!! The best Paperwork ever seen! No one in the Entire HISTORY Of the Law has ever seen such Perfect PAPERWORK filed to a Deep State Judge throwing an Innocent Manly writer of PERFECT Form-checking to Electric SHARKS (with Tears in their eyes) during a stolen Election Year!
WaterGirl
@tokyokie: It wasn’t his legal team. It was the hot attorney he hired that looks like Melania. That’s why he’s not saying who it is as he rants about how unfair it was.
Cameron
@Scout211: This is turning out to be a lovely Monday evening. Hopefully the rest of the week will prove to be as entertaining. Donald J. Trump starring in The Tragedy of the Oaf King.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: Wow. Too bad he couldn’t have said something a little earlier.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Fun aside, I don’t understand this. Was she the only attorney on the case when the form was filed?
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
To be fair, it wasn’t clear for long time which way the winds were blowing.
WaterGirl
@NotMax:
“There’s nothing more to be said, except that I am a total piece of excrement for my interactions with the Gold Star family.”
(what Kelly should have added)
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Kise is smiling like a guy who splatted out a wet fart in the back of the classroom. He’s paid, and he’s not the fuckup, and he knows that future work will come from maintaining a decent demeanor.
Shalimar
@geg6: The grinner is Chris Kise, and yes, he famously got his $3 million retainer up front. He also was hired after Habba fucked up the jury trial form, so no way Trump can blame him for that.
Roger Moore
@Jeffro:
I don’t see why they would, since this is a New York state case. The Supreme Court will not usually overturn cases based on state law.
Baud
@Shalimar:
Thanks. That answers my question.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Right!
eclare
@geg6:
You know he and his writers were salivating when they saw what Foghorn Leghorn read…
Dan B
@geg6: Us too. Oliver, Colbert, and Kimmel. It’s been somewhat depressing without them. Fortunately we had Liberal Redneck for a but of delight.
Jeffro
@Roger Moore: hence ‘some reason’
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
I’m going to trespass upon Mr. Sondheim’s good will here, because the lyrics—all of them, every line, every verse—are all too fitting to These Times We Live In.
Oh, and the movie had Michael Hordern, Jack Gilford, and Phil Silvers, with Buster Keaton running industriously around the seven hills of Rome. Plus one of the best gladiatorial training scenes ever.
(Exits humming)
Jay
@like a metaphor:
having worked food services in a “hangover” restaurant, where you get all the late night drunk assholes, trust me, it ain’t just spit.
Shalimar
@WaterGirl: I got downvoted on RawStory for saying the same thing, but I stand by it. To hell with the dishonorable John Kelly.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Exactly!
All these “brave” souls coming out now that know the way the tide is moving.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: Hmm…Melania might be getting too old for TIFG. Will the lawyer be wife #4?
smith
So, little Matty Gaetz decided not to take on the team captain after all — he took the floor, reamed out McCarthy, but sadly, had no motion to vacate.
Alison Rose
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio): I think your last lines might have broken the margins on mobile.
lamh36
@Old Dan and Little Ann:
I have seen it multiple times now thx to the nieces and nephews.
It definitely deserved more and better adverts than it got from Disney.
Scout211
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio):
Oopsie. The last line in your quote box broke the margin. Can you edit?
Baud
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio):
You broke the blog.
Baud
@smith:
Pity the poor pundits who had devoted so much mental energy thinking about how Dems should handle it.
hotshoe
@zhena gogolia:
Yeah, that’s how I feel about any of those shitheels. I’m angry, cynical, and sad.
They had a moral duty to warn, back then, when they were witnesses in real time.
For whatever reasons, they chose not to.
They quit, and stayed quiet, or were fired, and stayed quiet.
Sad, mostly sad.
Cameron
@Alison Rose: What can he offer? He ain’t going to have the serious dough it would take to corral this young lady. Especially since Melania just got a revised version of the prenup. He’ll be lucky if he can front a diet Coke and a hamberder.
smith
@Baud: I was looking forward to the comic interlude to the ongoing comic interlude. Who says Republicans aren’t funny?
Keithly
@Alison Rose: I don’t think Alina Habba, Esq., can really compete with Melania’s ‘Einstein’ visa, though. Circumstances can always change, of course…
geg6
@scav:
The electric sharks with tears in their eyes is just…chef’s kiss.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Baud: She’s not hard to look at, true.
eversor
@Jay:
Having worked in fine dining it ain’t just the cheap joints that get piss and jizz into things ;
In a way Trumps ordering of fast food delivery is the sane part about him. Cause tip under 30%, be a jerk, and when you come back you’re getting the special seasoning at any sit down place.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
Nice!
In retrospect, was privileged to attend a goodly number of memorable performances, including Kiley in Man of La Mancha as well as Christopher Plummer and David Carradine in Royal Hunt of the Sun, Tom Conti in Whose Life Is It Anyway?, Angela Lansbury in Sweeney Todd, Tommy Tune and Twiggy in My One and Only, Imogene Coca in On the Twentieth Century and James Earl Jones in a revival of You Can’t Take It With You.
sab
I didn’t cook dinner tonight because we have LOTS of leftovers. I mean chickens died for no purpose. If I eat it tonight we won’t toss the chicken.
Brits sseem to be iffy re British alleged morality.
We had leftover meatloaf. Husband loves it. I think goldfish food is more interesting
My goldfish (nickname for our dog on the street) is more interesting.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I see that your question has already been answered.
I want to see the form (blank, of course.)
I’d like to know if there are two boxes: one for jury trial, one for bench trial.
Or – if the default is bench trial for this sort of case, and there is just one box that you click for a jury trial, and she didn’t click it.
I would bet good money that Tish James’ office noticed the lack of a checkmark and most definitely was not going to ask if they really intended a bench trial. I bet they were holding their breath, hoping that the error was not noticed in time.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Alison Rose: Very likely, and since I’m posting on mobile as well, I’m not sure I can sort it out easily.
JPL
It’s probably been mentioned but Jake Tapper spoke with John Kelly about trump’s love of the military. Haley will use the quotes as will Christi, but the others don’t want to upset the magas.
haha
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Scout211: I’ve tried, and I’m not sure I can fix it.
Just insert Comedy tonight! anywhere it looks dodgy.
Baud
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio):
I think WaterGirl fixed it.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I once worked a commercial job (addition to a medical practice) where I was applying base board on a wall and realized somebody was watching me. I looked up and this female doc (not bad looking either) had her eyes on me and turned as red as a beat.
She was so embarrassed she just said something along the lines of, “I like muscles.”
Later on I totally grossed her out when I smacked my thump with my hammer and spurted blood half way up the wall. She didn’t say anything at all that time, just turned green.
Chetan Murthy
@Baud: More from [spit] Kelly: “A person who is not truthful regarding his position on the protection of unborn life”
Yeah, this fucker is a gestation-slaver. Fuck him. Fuck him sideways with a rusty shovel.
RaflW
@smith: Motion to vacate now filed.
Apparently the Dem side of the aisle burst out in laughter as Matty left the podium.
Chetan Murthy
@OzarkHillbilly: “smacked my thump with my hammer”
Oh, is that what we’re calling it now, hmmmm ?
ETA: I know, I know, “thumb”. But still, its funny.
Scout211
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio):
You fixed it. Thanks!
Or WaterGirl fixed it? Thanks!
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
You’ll do anything to stay faithful.
jonas
He did give a sworn deposition earlier this year and the tl;dr was basically “I have the right to claim my buildings are worth whatever I feel like they’re worth, so screw you.”
Ken
I hadn’t expected Trump’s lawyers to begin work on the insanity defense already. The evidence from the forensic accountants must be pretty terrible if they’re trying to establish he’s had diminished capacity for over 40 years.
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose: It’s okay on my phone. Anyone else?
(never mind, fixed now)
JPL
@Chetan Murthy: The video is good though because Jake points out that when he reached out to the trump campaign, the assumed it was Milley.
geg6
@RaflW:
I really like our House Dems right now. They have been stellar.
Baud
@RaflW:
Oh wow. Go Matty G. They should call it the motion to disarray!
Alison Rose
@Cameron: It’s not like he had much to offer the others. Aside from money, which we know he had way less of than he claimed, what has he ever offered anyone?
smith
@RaflW: OK! Thanks for the update.
eversor
@Cameron:
That’s nuts as he will still have enough. The key to landing a hot chick is either to be hot, have a fancy degree from the right school, or having money. Nothing else matters. That’s it. If you have secondary items that gets you into the competition with the other hot and money people but being good looking and having money are what matter. Personality means shit.
He ain’t broke yet and he can still get foreign funding so he’ll get all the hot ass he wants. He may not get restaurant reservations, but he’ll have a steady supply of women.
jonas
@NotMax: John Kelly has something to say about Trump *now*? Well, bless his heart. He’s welcome to fornicate with any number of rusty farm implements.
cain
@SiubhanDuinne: I seem to recall that used to be an NBC or some other channel used to have that as a single “tragedy tomorrow, comedy tonight! Something for everybody..”
Roger Moore
@Cameron:
Conjugal visits?
cain
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: YES!! That’s right! I thought it was NBC!
OzarkHillbilly
@Chetan Murthy: HA! Nice catch.
@Baud: Yes I will, tho at that time I was divorced and probably still in my “Never again…” stage.
smith
@Alison Rose: He always assumed it was his devastating masculine charm. That’s what Stormy said, right?
WaterGirl
@Baud: @Scout211: I pulled it up on my phone to see where the problem was, and it wasn’t broken.
But I would have fixed it. :-)
NotMax
@Ken
One has to have had capacity in the first place in order to assert diminished capacity.
//
smith
That strikes me as an extremely incel-ish and contemptuous view of women.
Roger Moore
@jonas:
The judge spent a while dissecting that statement in his summary judgment ruling. The quick summary is that the disclaimer he was so proud of is worthless.
bbleh
@SiubhanDuinne: I love that show. I actually did a prep-school production of it — we had a pro-level singing group — and it was WAY fun
@Mr. Bemused Senior: and a happy ending, of course. Maybe not for him but for the rest of us.
Scout211
Reading the recap from several different news sources, it looks like the defense is claiming that this practice of of overvaluing your assets and property for once purpose and undervaluing your assets and property for another purpose is simply “business as usual” for real estate companies and banks. I assume that many of the prosecution witnesses will testify to actual facts that dispute that.
The other defense strategy so far seems to be, blame the accountants.
jonas
@Alison Rose: That selfish skinflint never gave anyone a dime in his life. What I think other very insecure people got from him was a sense that if they hung out with him, got their picture taken with him giving that shit-eating thumbs-up grin thing he does, some of his (completely superficial) glamor and (*gag*) masculine bravado would rub off on them. Or something. He was always surrounded by needy, shallow people whom he knew he could take advantage of if he wanted to.
Which is why ETTD.
TS
With the insults flying against the Judge & the NY AG – can they sue trump or does that just go into the too hard/no point box.
Can he be charged with “contempt of court” – Very few act this way in relation to judges/prosecutors, without repercussions – why is this person so “special”
The whole scene is unbelievable – yet here we are.
Origuy
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Form?
Sorry, but it had to be said.
bbleh
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio): @Alison Rose: @Scout211: from memory so may be off here and there:
No royal curse
No Trojan horse
And a happy ending of course
Goodness and badness
Man in his madness
This time it all turns out all right
Tragedy tomorrow
Comedy tonight
Shalimar
@WaterGirl: James’ office checked the box for bench trial, and Trump had 15 days to dispute that and file the form with jury trial checked, at which point there would have been a hearing for the judge to decide. Habba apparently did not know the law and didn’t do anything.
Nukular Biskits
Hello, fellow BJ peeps!
Just got in … and I made the news:
Port Tampa Bay
Someone let Betty know that I couldn’t make the Columbia Restaurantfor dinner tonight. I’ve been trying to dry my clothes for the last hour and a half in the hotel laundry.
bbleh
@Scout211: thing I don’t understand is, the judge has already ruled on fraud. All that’s left is falsifying documents. Maybe they’re just laying the groundwork for appeal, I dunno.
@TS: there has been speculation that he’s trying to “bait” the judge, and same with Chutkan (whom he’s been even worse about), maybe to get himself thrown in jail for a week at which point he will nail himself to a cross. But if that’s true (and I’m skeptical), he’s unlikely to be successful — Engoron at one point worked as a New York cab driver! I’m kinda thinking he’s heard anything Trump could dredge out of the bottom of his spleen and a good deal more.
JGreen
@NotMax: My God! That’s enough great performances for a couple of lifetimes. You got any tickets you can’t use? Or are you not going to shows right now because you don’t want to see kid’s movies turned into musicals?
cain
@smith: Indeed.
Shalimar
@eversor: So we can add women to religion on the list of things you really shouldn’t talk about if you don’t want to sound creepy.
WaterGirl
@Shalimar:
I just wanted to see that again. Thank you!
WaterGirl
@Nukular Biskits: I didn’t see you. :-)
eclare
@Nukular Biskits:
Very cool! The ship, not the laundry part.
And damn, from that restaurant’s menu, looks like you missed some great food as well as Betty C.
gene108
What exactly is the logic behind forcing a sale of Trump’s assets?
If it’s punish Trump for being the awful person he is, that’s cool.
Otherwise I don’t get it.
Chetan Murthy
@gene108: IIUC, the Trump Organization has committed enough fraud, for long enough, that he’s applying the “corporate death penalty”: all the businesses are wound up, their assets sold, debts paid, etc. And then, sure, out of the profits (if any) TFG and his co-defendants must pay fines.
Nukular Biskits
@WaterGirl:
I’m the guy in the purple sweatshirt in one of the photos.
LOL
Scout211
All the Trump Organization’s creditors?
bbleh
@gene108: IANAL but if he committed business fraud and gained materially from it, then he has committed an offense against the people and the state, and the state is allowed by statute to sue to recover the ill-gotten gains.
The big question as I understand it is, was his fraud “material”? That is, to what degree if any did it affect the decisions of the various banks and inscos such that he gained materially?
eclare
@Nukular Biskits:
You are hidden!
Shalimar
@gene108: The forced sale is so the government can collect all the illegally-gotten gains from his fraud. Just the old Washington Post Office building alone, he got a loan for it at a much better rate than he would have gotten without lying about valuations, and then sold it for $100 million profit. Deutsche Bank ended up getting paid, but the loan was still obtained fraudulently.
Ken
I am hoping that in between the issues of fraud and falsification of records, the judge finds a moment to ask defense counsel to approach the bench and explain why their client should not be found guilty of contempt. Maybe he could do it late in the day, so if they don’t have an immediate answer he can make it a homework assignment, due at start of day tomorrow.
TS
@bbleh:
I’m skeptical about this one too – trump would not do well in jail – unless he thinks all the jailers would treat him as royalty?
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Yeah, you probably should have caught yourself after typing that part out.
Not all comments need to be posted. It’s okay to type one up, re-read it, and go “nah, not actually gonna post that”. 🙂
Nukular Biskits
@eclare:
I was looking forward to going there too.
Nukular Biskits
@eclare:
Indeed!
Jackie
@Mike in NC: But at least he fed them🙄
Roger Moore
@bbleh:
The judge gets into this in his summary judgment ruling. Even if the banks would have made the loans anyway, they would have been able to charge more interest or added other terms to the loans to make up for Trump having less collateral. So yes, the fraud was material even if the banks might have made the loans anyway and Trump didn’t default on any of them.
gene108
@Scout211:
Giving a bank what you think is fair market value for a property to get a loan is common, and usually exceeds the property tax value the city assesses.
No one lists the sale price of their home at the assessed property tax value, for example. It’s usually greater than the tax value.
Within the realm of reasonable valuations, no one has an issue with it. It’s hard to avoid.
Common sense way to do it these days is do an internet search for comparable properties that sold recently, and value your property on the high end of those sales prices.
Trump seems to have double or tripled or fudged up the values more than whatever comps might be around to get an estimate of value.
gene108
@bbleh:
Thanks. What you wrote clears up my confusion.
satby
@smith: yep.
bbleh
@Roger Moore: yeah, I think it’s a question of degree — did they say, eg, okay maybe that’s high and maybe not but plus or minus a little bit he’s good for the loan so we won’t tack on the extra quarter-point we would otherwise, or did they say holy cow this guy is a gold mine let’s throw money at him for nearly free and beg him to take it, or somewhere in between?
zhena gogolia
@OzarkHillbilly: Sounds like a Penthouse letter.
Geminid
@Nukular Biskits: I read about that ship at some naval news site, and I was wondered if this was what you were up to (you mentioned a few days ago that you were taking a trip).
I read that after the commissioning, the Jack H. Lucas will sail through the Panama Canal and then serve with the Pacific Fleet. Will you miss the Lucas? Is this like seeing a favorite student going off into the real world?
WaterGirl
@Nukular Biskits: I love that shade of purple!
WaterGirl
@Scout211: Hopefully some of the $$ goes to all the people he has stiffed over the years. A girl can dream.
WaterGirl
@Jackie: Oh my god, i saw that earlier and I thought it was a joke.
He bought a bunch of fast food – for people who work at the courthouse???
How is that not a problem???
I am going to run out of question marks.
RaflW
@Shalimar: I’m going with what some liberal pundits are saying: It’ll be easier for Trump to blame a single (“biased, terrible, so very wrong”) judge than 12 jurors. Not that he wouldn’t try the same with them, but having 12 random people come to a conclusion against him may seem less susceptible to claims of bias sticking.
Roger Moore
@bbleh:
I think the question was less “is Trump a good customer or a really good customer” and more “is Trump a good customer or a lousy one”. My impression is that, like many real estate developers, he’s leveraged up to his eyeballs. The fraud was designed to make him look like a safe borrower when he was actually a dangerous one. That’s a very material lie.
bbleh
@Roger Moore: and I would assume determining the degree of materiality is why they’ve reportedly got at least one person from DB on the witness list, and why I would HOPE they’ve also got people from some of the banks who STOPPED lending to him. You get one bank exec to testify that “yeah, we lent him money based on his financial statements, but then we started hearing some things, and we started digging, and we realized we had been lied to, and we pulled out” and it’s gonna start looking pretty bad for Donnie Two-Scoops.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
It’s probably a little harder to explain how the square footage of your apartment goes from 10,000 sq ft in reality to 30,000 sq ft for loan purposes, and then the value per square foot is an order of magnitude more than any other property on the island of Manhattan.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Roger Moore: I haven’t really dug into the weeds of it, but my understanding is one property they’re going to have. a lot of trouble with is Seven Springs, a mansion upstate that they seem to have tried several different ways to launder the purchase and use
and because the world is sometimes small, especially at the level of people who trade in such properties, that article tells me that Seven Springs was built by the father of Katharine Graham, late of the Washington Post
jonas
And the bankers themselves were clearly complicit in playing along with this because Trump generated huge fees and interest rates for them. I don’t know if there’s any way the AG can go after them, but it seems it should also be illegal for banks to pretend to accept someone’s obviously bullshit financials when making loan decisions. That’s like taking a bribe. The corruption here is that when banks give favorable treatment to patently dishonest clients, they’re taking capital and investment opportunities away from people who are trying to play by the rules. If there’s no oversight of that now, there sure as hell ought to be.
WaterGirl
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Poor Donald. //
jonas
That’s right — tax assessment is usually a fixed percentage of the market appraisal. When we get our town tax bill each year, it tells us what our “assessed” value is, and then gives what they think the market value is and it’s more or less in the ballpark of what we could probably get if we sold it — maybe a little under. If we were Trump, our assessed value would be $120,000 and on our HELOC application, we would put the market value down as $6.5 million because that’s how big my balls are. Wine and dine the loan officer a little bit — golf junket to Florida here and there, and boom! I get a $1 million line of credit!
bbleh
@jonas: but here I think is a problem: if the banks went along with it — if they knew perfectly well that the “financial statements” weren’t worth the paper they were written on, and their decisions didn’t depend on them at all — then … the fraud was not material!
Of course, no bank exec would want to admit that publicly, especially under oath, so that adds yet another wrinkle.
WaterGirl
@bbleh: Then wouldn’t the banks also be guilty of fraud?
bbleh
@WaterGirl: again IANAL, but I would think it would be more like liability to shareholder suits. After all, if they decide to go ahead despite obviously false paper, that’s their decision and their risk. They wouldn’t be actively conning anyone else; they’d be conning themselves. But as shareholder-owned companies, they’d arguably be failing in their fiduciary duty, ie failing their stockholders. But (again) I assume that too would be subject to litigation, because the question would be, was their judgment to ignore the falsity actually a bad business decision? And if not, then the shareholders wouldn’t have been injured.
Blech. Can’t we just all make art instead? Or grow flowers or vegetables or something?
Tehanu
@NotMax:
Gosh, I’m envious. I saw it with Phil Silvers when it was revived in the 1970s (and with Larry Blyden, who was glorious) and again in 1996 with Nathan Lane, and they were all great, but Zero — wow!
catclub
@NotMax:
There is something more. He has millions of followers who think he is great. If not the greatest.
rikyrah
@SiubhanDuinne:
Rotating tag, please 😂
rikyrah
@geg6:
What a clown show 🤣🤣🤣
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Thanks for the recommendation
mrmoshpotato
Hoo boy! Good job, Dump The Dumbass!
Shalimar
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: The tripling of the size of an apartment in a skyscraper really stuns me. Don’t the loan officers notice that the size is much bigger than the actual building? If each floor is 5,000 square feet and he claims 2 floors, it can’t possibly be larger than 10,000 square feet. Or is this where all his phantom floors come in? He claims his apartment is really 7 floors, and no one inspects the property to realize that is bullshit?
Shalimar
@bbleh: My understanding of New York fraud law from listening to all these experts talk about it on TV and Twitter is that materiality is not an element of the crime, so it doesn’t really matter whether banks relied on or believed his statements. I have not read the statute personally to confirm this.