I love this guy so much:
Short and to the point, Senator Fetterman!
But seriously, FUCK THAT. The impulse to abandon Ukraine is quickly becoming a Repub identity marker. We’re not all the way there yet, but the idea seems to be picking up steam, and not just among elected officials like the bearded canned ham from Ohio. I see it filtering down to the shut-in kooks who write letters to the editor of my local paper.
The faction of the American right that includes Vance, DeSantis, Trump, Musk, the Fox News prime-time lineup, etc., want Putin to win because they are rightwing authoritarians themselves. The Freedom Caucus loons will probably make defunding Ukraine a litmus test for would-be speakers, if they haven’t already.
We’re going to need a bigger bag of FUCK THAT.
Open thread.
Alison Rose
Fetterman rules.
And yeah, it’s kind of bizarre to me too, because usually these pseudo-tough-guys LOVE a damn underdog story, and as far as military might, Ukraine is obviously the underdog in that war, and yet they’re kicking ass. I suppose this might be an iteration of Cleek’s Law.
But crikey, I’m sure if these folks just ask nicely, putin would let them blow him.
PaulWartenberg
I believe at this point we have no “serious” foreign policy wonks among the Republican intellectual elites and elected officials. Whatever Cold Warrior instincts they prided themselves having since Cowboy Reagan have all turned into Puppies 4 Putin.
Suzanne
@PaulWartenberg: There’s no one serious in the GOP at all. The GOP wants to end Ukraine aid because they decided that they hate Ukraine because LIE-BURULZ and DEMONCRAPS support its right to exist. They support Russia because we do not. That’s it. That’s the sum total support of the analysis.
Old School
I also agree it should be split up. The aid for Israel should go to Israel while the aid for Ukraine should go to Ukraine.
The approval process should be done at the same time though.
Yutsano
Canned ham defence league on line 3 for you Ms. B.
Urza
The only litmus test i’ve seen so far is MTG making every last one of the unelected speakers in waiting to promise not to bring an omnibus spending bill to the floor. I’m sure the Ukraine aid will be a thing eventually though.
Parfigliano
Take them up on their offer. Split it up. Ukraine aid gets voted first.
JoyceH
Republicans hate Zelenskyy. He makes them feel small and weak and stupid. Both Ukraine and the US picked presidents from an entertainment environment. They got a really smart guy with incredible guts and leadership skills and we got… well… (waves around helplessly) you know.
CaseyL
Speaker nominating ballot now down to just Emmer and Johnson.
Chris
It’s been obvious from the start that this was how it would go. In modern conservatism, Trump plus Tucker Carlson equals a majority. (Really, Trump equals a majority). If they don’t have it yet, give them a few months to chip away at the topic and they’ll get there eventually. In this case, they’ve been chipping away since before Russia even invaded and in some ways all the way back to 2016 when removing the pro-Ukraine language from the Republican platform was Trump’s one modification to it. “Fuck Ukraine” becoming the majority view was a question of when not if.
Mr. Bemused Senior
Well, after all, he wouldn’t do a tiny favor for Trump. Such ingratitude after all Trump did for him. Shocking, really.
dmsilev
@CaseyL: That was fast. Are they getting tired of the clown show?
Alison Rose
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. He didn’t do TIFG’s bidding, which in their tiny little minds means he hates America, so they hate him.
Another element is that many liberals in this country admire him a great deal, and of course, if we like him, he must suck!!!!
Alison Rose
@CaseyL: Ooh ooh let them fight for it!!
Chris
@JoyceH:
Don’t forget that the Republicans tried to muscle Ukraine into inventing a Biden scandal for them, and the Ukrainians didn’t play ball, which is the kind of thing they’ll hold grudges about. I can’t even remember if Zelenskyy was already in charge at the time, but they don’t make that kind of distinction.
Betty Cracker
I think part of the hard-right’s disdain for Zelensky comes from his commitment to a diverse, tolerant society and aspiration to join the EU. That makes him an effete European in their minds.
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
By Geor…. Suzanne I think you’ve got it!
Conservative politics are failing and floundering. They have no idea what they really want, their closest concept is/seems to be Russia, and they have the leadership (I mistakenly typed that as leadershit – should I use that?) of a ship at the bottom of the ocean.
CaseyL
@dmsilev: It looks like the vote rounds are going quickly, with not a lot of bargaining/threatening. I think these votes are also anonymous, which gives TFC fewer opportunities to threaten.
But now that it’s down to two, there may be more jockeying.
ETA: Johnson is more MAGA than Emmer. That could be the deciding factor.
catclub
Huh? not if the underdog is female, or black or muslim or jewish, or poor.
JoyceH
@Chris: Yes! The Perfect Call was to Zelenskyy, the callow and untested new President that Trump expected to be able to bulldoze. Plus, the Ukrainians also destroyed the myth of the Unstoppable Russian Military Juggernaut, which Republicans always like to contrast with our “weak, woke military”. They’ll never forgive that.
Paul in KY
Man, do I love Sen. Fetterman!
catclub
I would say that the scandal came out so fast, they were never had time to commit to yes or no on playing ball. Who knows which way they might have gone? They needed those armaments.
Spanky
@Alison Rose:
Nah. Putin would demand that they beg him. And they would.
@Suzanne:
Nah. they support Russia because they’re paid to, and because they love a murderous dictator. Not necessarily in that order.
Steeplejack
“The shut-in kooks.” Hey, wait a minute! I think I (rep)resent that.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
He is also a leader who believes in his people and listens to them.
Both things that conservatives don’t believe are correct and proper.
The picture I get of what conservatives want in a leader is a 2nd grade teacher who carries a ruler with her everywhere/all the time and uses it to smack the desks of any child that isn’t sitting stiffly upright and paying rapt attention to her and who laugh at her behind her back.
laura
Just popping in to note the absolute silence from one Condi Rice, a former purported expert on all things Russia. My recollection is that she was agin’em.
Alison Rose
@Betty Cracker:
My favorite kind of person.
CaseyL
@laura: Only when they were “communist.” Now they’re sadistic oligarchs, and all of Condi’s friends like that a lot.
Alison Rose
@catclub: Eh, sometimes in those cases, too. It depends on the circumstances. They love to find one woman or POC or somesuch they can put on a pedestal for some reason, so they can use them as a shield against accusations of bigotry.
Chris
@JoyceH:
Oh God, yes. All that shit about how the only way to win a war was to be manly and racist and homophobic and otherwise non-woke like Mother Russia, smashed to pieces. I’ve always loathed what TV Tropes calls “Proud Warrior Races” (Sparta being the ur-example), and it’s not just because they’re not good at anything but war, it’s because they’re not even good at war, the one thing they’re supposed to be.
RandomMonster
Trump’s corrupt and criminal partnership with Vladimir Putin has turned the hard right pro-Russia. This in turn drives them to be anti-Ukraine, anti-NATO, and anti-democracy.
Betty Cracker
WaPo says Emmer it is. Now the question is, can he get to 217? If so, Trump is gonna have egg all over his face since he tried to sandbag Emmer.
Betty Cracker
@RandomMonster: Not sure I agree with the order there, but the result is the same.
Mr. Longform
Republicans: cut medicare and social security, remove reproductive privacy rights, support the overthrow of the government, regress on all manners of science, stick up for authoritarians, implement anti-poverty, anti-child, anti-minority policies, reinforce economic inequality, etc., etc.
Fetterman: used a naughty word.
Both sides. Why can’t we come together?
Alison Rose
@Betty Cracker: Just got the NYT notification which says:
LOLSOB
Chris
@catclub:
The key word in “they love an underdog story” isn’t “underdog,” it’s “story.”
Mai Naem mobile
Anybody else see the rumors that Putin had some kind of cardiac event over the weekend? I haven’t seen it in a news source I trust but it’s in a bunch of well known international new sources. Ofcourse the Kremlin is denying it but it could be that a Putin double had a cardiac event not Putin himself.
Bupalos
Looks like the R’s are pretty much down to Emmer or nothing. With ‘nothing’ still looking like the most likely outcome. And Emmer has been a solid yes on Ukraine aid.
Subsole
@Alison Rose:
They worship Putin because he hates browns and stomps queers. He has sculpted Russia into the 21st century neofeudalist paradise, the Second Confederacy, the rabidly deranged, performatively hypermasculoid, cripplingly insecure ethnostate they crave.
They are Fifth Columnists, cultivated by Putin’s Siloviki trollholes. And they ain’t all on the right, either.
@Suzanne: I think it is more nuanced than reflexive Cleekism. I think they genuinely see Putin as the guardian and exemplar of everything they yearn for.
Chris
@Ruckus:
He’s also a War President who’s kicking ass militarily, which is what Republican presidents are supposed to be and want to be but have dismally failed to actually be for the last twenty years. No wonder they hate him. And the fact that his success is allowing Biden to play the Roosevelt to his Churchill is just icing on the cake.
There’s nothing conservatives hate more than an outsider who actually is what they pretend to be.
smith
@Betty Cracker: Added to the egg he acquired when he tried to ram Jordan through.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Alison Rose:
LOL
dmsilev
@Betty Cracker:
Onwards to today’s edition of Running With the Clowns.
Subsole
@catclub:
This. They like kicking the shit out of a disabled man who’s tied up and lying on the sidewalk, while loudly telling themselves (and everyone else) they’re the victims.
dmsilev
I did read earlier this morning that Matt Gaetz had voted for Emmer in the caucus meeting, so presumably that’s one preening asshole that he doesn’t have to worry about in a floor vote. However, preening assholes are not in short supply in the GOP caucus, so we’ll see…
Bupalos
It can feel this way. I’d much rather it just be negative partisanship than the reality- in their fear of modernity they’ve fallen for the “go back to the mythical past” bullshit, and Putin really is a fellow mythologist.
smith
So now they’re going to have a roll call vote within the R conference, so the identities of who is in which camp will be revealed.
catclub
@dmsilev: no love for scissors?
Geminid
@smith: Tom Emmer did vote for Jordan, but I wonder if he was trying to “ram Jordan through.” He may have operated under two assumptions: 1) the anti-Jordan members would not cave. He knew them; and 2) that no member who voted against Jordan could get the Jordan camp behind them as a Speaker candidate, and a successfull Speaker candidate has to get almost every Republican behind him.
I think Emmer knew he was already acceptable to the anti-Jordan forces, and the main challenge for him was winning over the Jordan camp.
sdhays
@smith: If they still have “camps”, Emmer isn’t going to be Speaker, IMO.
Bupalos
This doesn’t strike me as being particularly true. I’d agree Putin does in some sense stand for these things, but not that he has “scuplted” Russia into this image. Russia is way more complex in terms of ethnicity than we in the west tend to think. While there is a Russians First vibe in the empire from at least Stalin on up to the present day, there isn’t really the same openly racialized politics we see in the U.S. I’d also say it’s no more characterized by misogyny than say the majority of South America.
“Neofeudalist” isn’t far off though. And “cripplingly insecure” I’ll sign up for as well. And Putin does have a craftsman’s hand in the former if not the later.
smith
@Geminid: Certainly sounds plausible, and Emmer I’m sure knows the ins and outs of R internal politicking.
Just to clarify: I was referring to TFG getting egg on his face after trying to ram Jordan through, and failing, and now failing to stop Emmer. Could it be that his vise-like grip on the party is starting to fail as much as his mind so obviously is?
Betty Cracker
@Bupalos: Good to know that Emmer supports Ukraine aid.
@smith: Yep — that was a massive face-plant.
@Mai Naem mobile: I have not heard that rumor about Putin, but I hope to dog it’s true and that the REAL Putin is incapacitated and speeding directly towards hell.
Geminid
@sdhays: Even if all the “camps” get behind Emmer, there could still be a few strays. Emmer is probably going to have to roll the dice on a floor vote not knowing if he has 217 votes.
We might see a reprise of January’s contest, when McCarthy had to grind down the holdouts, and co-opted some with concessions. Emmer may or may not be able to pull that off.
Citizen Dave
All this talk of ramming has me thinking of Springsteen’s Ramrod.
Jeffro
110%
They also know that supporting Ukraine and doing it well makes President Biden look good, and we can’t have that now can we?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
The real crime is our criticism as they nobly do the yeoman’s work of ridding our country of indigence.
Alison Rose
NYT liveblog
Can we please just get rid of the GOP so the country can actually function? I’m so tired of being held hostage by these psychotic babies.
smith
@Geminid: Speaking of concessions, we still have to see if a successful Speaker candidate can get the one-person MTV rule changed. There’s not much point in going through all of this again if one of the crazies feels in need of more attention and has an easy way to get it.
Fake Irishman
@Geminid:
It’s Emmer being a team player. (Ok, stop laughing) But it’s been a standard in all political caucuses to respect the majority of the caucus when picking a leader candidate. Once the internal vote is done, that’s who you go to the floor with United behind, because otherwise the opposition can stop you. It was the norm for nearly a century until Gaetz and company started throwing food last January.
MattF
@Mai Naem mobile: I heard about that and did a search on ‘Putin cardiac arrest’, which produced pages of reports. Some of the evidence, e.g., images of a fallen Putin, were pronounced bogus and AI generated. I’m no expert, but rumors of Putin having a variety of health problems are common and false.
Bupalos
@Jeffro: I think this badly undersells the positive attraction to Putin’s “traditional values society” formulation – a euphemism for anti-modern oligarchic kleptocracy with a faux-religious chaser.
Alison Rose
I hate all of these people and I hate the people who elected them.
smith
Informal notes from within the R conference after a roll call say Emmer still lacks more than 20 votes to reach 217.
Mr. Bemused Senior
Meet Tom Emmer, a powerful crypto advocate in a crypto-wary Congress
Oh joy. [WaPo gift link]
Juju
@Mai Naem mobile: I hadn’t heard that, but I wouldn’t believe it one way or the other.
I did want to reply to something you mentioned in a dead thread from last night. You questioned the rumor that a Trump supporter mentioned how Trump bought the Mar a Largo club so he could let blacks and Jews in, or something along that line. That is absolutely false and you don’t need to Google crap Trump says about that. The history of the property is all you need to know. The estate was built by Marjorie Merriweather Post, the heiress to the Post cereal company, which she built into General Foods. The estate was built in the 1920s and was a private residence until her death in 1973. She willed the house to the US government for presidential use, and the US government took care of the estate until it was decided that the estate was too expensive to maintain and returned it to the Post Foundation in the early 1980s. The estate was eventually sold to Trump in the mid 80s. He’s the person who turned it into a club. Any race or religious restrictions were of his making.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Alison Rose: Valid, though your excerpt is the first example I’ve hear where it seemed like they were functioning like normal people seeking a consensus.
WaterGirl
Betty, you beat me to it. :-)
I read Fetterman’s FUCK that tweet while I was waiting for Henry, and I, too, thought it was front page-worthy. But I didn’t have access to create a post where I was. I was going to title my post “Fuck That” – when I got home – and it was going to say much of what you said, only mine would have had far less clever word-smithing!
Matt McIrvin
@MattF: Yeah, there have been rumors about Putin supposedly dying of cancer for years. I don’t credit them.
Geoduck
Does anybody care what Condi Rice thinks?
Juju
@Betty Cracker: As far as the Putin rumor goes, I don’t think we’re that lucky.
Ruckus
@Chris:
dismally failed to actually be for the last twenty years
Longer than that.
They want what they want but don’t really know what that is. They want to repeat history of 3-400 years ago, but don’t see how that worked out for most every nation.
matt
While Russia is a corrupt, evil oil-producing state and I know first loves can be hard to shake, I still think Republicans should try to summon the moral clarity to oppose them. It would reflect favorably on them.
jonas
This would be coming from Vance. God, what an asshole. But doesn’t Ohio have… *checks notes*… one of the larger Ukrainian immigrant communities in the US? Why does Vance want to piss them off? Do they mostly vote Democratic or something so he just doesn’t give a shit and figures doing whatever Tucker Carlson says is the best idea here?
Subsole
@Bupalos:
I am no expert, but everything I have heard, foreign and domestic, is that minorities in Russia get pretty short shrift. Also, they are bone-meltingly racist against Africans. By which they mean black folks in general.
Brachiator
@Yutsano:
OT. Was there any follow up news on your job interview?
Leto
The spirit of Efgoldman lives on. Miss ya buddy.
MattF
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Ugh. I suppose it would be impolite to suggest that laundered funds could possibly be involved in persuading Emmer to be pro-crypto.
Dangerman
@Fake Irishman: They weren’t flinging food.
Matt McIrvin
@Jeffro: I was wondering if any Republicans were going to come out as anti-Israel, but they seem to have instead gone the less imaginative route of gleefully advocating exterminating the Gazans, claiming that Biden is pro-Hamas and leaving the protest of US support of Israel to their leftier-than-thou spoilers.
jonas
@matt: Republicans kicked moral clarity to the curb a long time ago. They have no interest in finding it again. Being amoral, bully-loving assholes pays a lot better.
Geminid
@smith: Now I see I misread your comment. Sorry.
As to Trump’s influence, I think there is a split between Republican electeds and Republican base voters. I think most of the officeholders are fed up with the guy and wish he’d go away. But they know Trump still has a hold on base voters, and they fear this. They might even understand that the sooner their party puts Trump in the rearview mirror the better off they’ll be in the long term. But they are driven by short term considerations, mainly next year’s House amd Senate elections.
Trump’s support among the rank and file is actually fading now, I think, but that’s been a much slower process than many Republicans hoped for and needed.
One problem here is that there is no popular and dynamic Republican politician for anti-Trump Republicans can coalesce around. At least the Trump fans have a leader; their opponents do not. Sad!
Mike in NC
They’d all voted to make Putin the next Speaker of the House if they only could.
Bill Arnold
@Mai Naem mobile:
Long-form tweet from General SVR twitter (the telegram channel that reported this). Juicy, and denied by the Kremlin.
And nitter.net link to the same.
ETA This part does not sound like cardiac arrest: “Putin convulsively arched while lying on the floor, rolling his eyes.”
Subsole
@Bupalos:
Agreed.
He is an aspirational figure to them. That’s why it doesn’t bother them that Trump was basically applying for position as Putin’s American Satrap.
They want to be Russia, so selling out to Russia is no negative to them (though they will savagely deny the accusation).
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Let’s say it’s true.
How will it actually change anything? Unless someone comes along and is able to change how Russia works as a nation, the names will change, the nation will not. Now of course that is not impossible but a smallish number of Russian politicos have made a rather tidy sum by not changing it all that much and who is going to convince them otherwise?
Bupalos
@Alison Rose: They’re going to want tools to prevent Ukraine and Israel aid being linked and to prevent Ukraine and funding the govt from coming to the floor. Seems doubtful the less-rabid Republicans will give it to them, and likely we’ll go back to staring into the void.
lowtechcyclist
@Suzanne:
Exactly. They may have stances on a few domestic issues that wouldn’t change no matter what position the Democratic Party takes (e.g. if we Dems suddenly became extremely pro-gun, they’d just try to out-extreme us), but not many. The rest of the time, they’ll take whatever position strikes them in the moment as the best way to score points against us.
And since they don’t give a flying fuck about anything outside our borders, that describes their foreign ‘policy’ across the board.
Betty Cracker
@Ruckus: Maybe with someone not named Putin in power, Russia would stop trying to commit genocide against Ukraine at ruinous cost to Russia? That person could still be a shitty oligarch but maybe one who makes better decisions in his own and the nation’s interests? Because the invasion of Ukraine ain’t working out for Russia.
catothedog
It is too simplistic to think that the GOP hates Ukraine because of “liberals and Democrats”
The GOP loves Russia because of Christo-fascism and white nationalism. They loved Putin, way before Ukraine happened.
HOW ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY BECAME THE SPIRITUAL HOME OF WHITE NATIONALISM
(This is also why the rightwing cant get along with Pope Francis).
And the GOP hates Ukraine/Zelensky because of their refusal to do Trumps bidding to torpedo Biden’s candidacy
Fake Irishman
@Dangerman:
This is a family blog, but point taken.
Jackie
Ellis is a disloyal wench.
Bupalos
@jonas: Ukrainians, Poles and Slovaks are normally R-leaning but in his election I believe went D. (This is just my own impression as someone tight with these communities)
And he still won pretty handily, because the rest of our coalition BADLY underperformed. Tim Ryan ran a campaign designed to not piss off Trumpers rather than to motivate Dems, and everyone was thinking that was genius and talking about “central casting” and it was dead wrong.
It will be interesting to see if the Eastern European vote shifts blue longer term.
trollhattan
@Alison Rose: Putin has his claws into a significant cohort of Republicans–considering decades of rabid anti-communism it’s quite a shift.
Their Lord and Master Trump is leading the way, the latest about his desperate desire to exit NATO is the best evidence yet he’ll do anything Vlad wants.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Betty Cracker: Yes. This is my view too. I’m not sure the infrastructure supporting Putin is as thrilled about this war as he is. The public certainly isn’t. A different leader would still try to force the Ukrainians to give up land for peace. However, after they got what they could, I think they’d declare victory and move on. Putin would use any pause to regroup, resupply, and then go for round 3.
trollhattan
@Jackie: Underused word, wench.
Geminid
@Alison Rose: Mike Garcia’s the guy who won Katie Hill’s seat after she resigned. He won the special election, and then won again in 2020 by less than 400 votes.
Garcia did a little better last year, but his district is still high on Democrats’ list of flippables. I think there are several more like it in Southern California, including Ken Calvert’s district that includes Palm Springs.
trollhattan
@Mai Naem mobile:
Presumes Putin has a heart to host an attack. Dubious.
Paul in KY
@CaseyL: Their classical music is also very good. Condi may have decided she can’t give up her Borodin.
kindness
Republicans are no longer embarrassed to be the Party of Putin now, so it seems.
lowtechcyclist
@dmsilev:
Too bad there isn’t a place with a preening asshole shortage that we could export our surplus to for profit. ;-)
Bupalos
@lowtechcyclist: Do you get this impression from actually interacting with Trumpers, or from interacting with the internet? Because what I hear from these folks on this question is a direct echo of their rejection of modernity (EU, gays, multiculturalism, etc.) It’s a whataboutist “well they don’t have boys in girl’s swim meets and litterboxes in the classroom” kind of crap. You couldn’t pull a bugs bunny “rabbit-season/duck-season” routine here. They understand Putin is a kind of ideological ally.
Geminid
@Bupalos: I’ve noticed that Ohio freshman Max Miller has adopted a pro-Ukraine stance. He was one of the four Republicans accompanying Foreign Relations Chair McCaul on a visit to Ukraine last February, right aftdr President Bidens visit. I think Miller’s Cleveland area district has a lot of voters with East European heritage.
McCaul seems to be leading the pro-Ukraine House Republicans.
Alison Rose
@Jackie: She could always get herself this mug I proudly drink from. (Sadly, I think it’s discontinued, and she ain’t getting mine!)
MomSense
@Chris:
The conspiracy I’ve been hearing is that Zelensky covered up the Biden Crime Family crimes in Ukraine and now as payback Biden is sending billions in aid to Ukraine which isn’t actually going to the war effort but really to Zelensky and his cronies personally.
Plus they love Putin’s brand of white Christian ethno nationalism.
I hate this stupid timeline…
Jackie
@trollhattan: Which definition of “wench” do you suppose Loomer had in mind?
”Wench comes from Middle English, and was a common word for girl, child, or servant. Over time it came to mean mainly serving girls, as in a bar wench, who serves drinks at a tavern. Eventually it came to mean prostitute.”
Frankensteinbeck
@Ruckus:
Whoever replaces Putin won’t have invested his pride and reputation in destroying Ukraine. Oh, he may hate Ukraine and the US and be generally hawkish, but Ukraine is an absolute clusterfuck for Russia being driven by Putin’s ego, and even the Russians know it. Beyond that, total crap shoot, thanks to Putin’s efforts to make sure he has no heir who could bump him off.
trollhattan
@kindness:
New initiative: demonstrating Putin is Woke as a motherfucking Woke thing and wants to come abort your babies and make you play drag queen bingo.
sdhays
You don’t have the depraved view of a bloodthirsty petty tyrant, Betty. “Russia” is doing fine. Putin thinks that he can pull out a win here because he doesn’t believe the West has the stamina to finish the job. In Russia, it doesn’t matter how many useless drunks are culled (their description, not mine) from the male population or how impoverished much of the country remains; it only matters that victory is achieved.
And then the left over men have more women to choose from. That’s how WWII worked out. Win win!
HeiSokoly
@catclub:
Au contraire
Trump learned only one thing from impeachment— keep trying because there are no consequences—so he was having our State Dept lean on Zelenskyy almost up to our election—and Zelenskyy kept telling them off with exquisite diplomatic steel.
(Google Biegun for more of a history of GOP Russian alliance, if perhaps not as noxious as Manafort of Manafort, Stone, Atwater)
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/prezident-ukrayini-proviv-telefonnu-rozmovu-z-derzhavnim-sek-63061
lowtechcyclist
@Geoduck:
I’ve seen Ari Fleischer – our own version of Baghdad Bob! – quoted not only recently with respect to Israel/Hamas, but also a couple times before that in the past year or so.
If the news media care what Fleischer thinks, they’ll care what just about any of the Bushies think.
davecb
@sdhays:
The US founding fathers called them “factions”. It wasn’t a compliment.
lowtechcyclist
@Betty Cracker:
This. Putin is obviously too invested in having invaded Ukraine to pull out and admit he got beat by some third-rate (in his view) nation. Anyone taking over would have the freedom to pull out without it being their loss.
Soprano2
@Subsole: I think there’s a lot to this. Putin in Russia and Orban in Hungary have turned their countries into what Republicans want the U.S. to be – white dominated countries where women, POC, non-Christians and gays are all held down under the thumb of government. Jesse David Fox, who wrote a book about comedy in our modern age, was on “Offline” talking about this. He said a lot of these white guys want their workplace to be a place where they can call everything “gay” as an insult, that they used to be the dominant people and felt like Masters of the Universe. Now that they don’t have that anymore he says they’re lashing out, and one way they do it is through claiming comedy isn’t funny anymore because comedians get in trouble for using slurs and punching down at people. He said he listened to a couple of ’80’s Eddie Murphy sets where he just pounded on gay people, and he says it sounds weird and unfunny now. He said all the people like Chapelle who are doing what they say is “edgy” comedy about trans people will probably regret it in the future, because it’s just not funny.
trollhattan
Trump evidently shifting from his typical “never heard of the guy” defense.
Bupalos
@Geminid: Cleveland-Youngstown-Pittsburgh (and radiating outwards) is pretty much Slovak alley in the United States. Republican reps in these areas are going to be on the hot seat. The traditional conception among these communities is that Republicans are their allies as they were more anti-communist. It will be really interesting if that conception changes in coming years. It’s a real opening for Dems politically, though sadly the opening may exist precisely to the extent that the Republican Party and shits like Vance cooperate with Putin in murdering Ukrainians.
Chris
@Bupalos:
For the purposes of their American supporters, it doesn’t really matter how true the image of Russia is. These cross-national ideological alliances always end up with a heavy dose of projecting your own politics into the other country’s. The American South circa 1860 wasn’t really the aristocratic/feudal/monarchist nirvana that its European groupies imagined – it was, at the end of the day, just another model of capitalist republicanism, with chattel slavery on top. But between all the cosplaying as English noblemen, and the shared disdain for the more democratic and egalitarian culture of the North, it was close enough that British and French toffs could headcanon it as some outpost of Old European civilization in the midst of American barbarism, and they in turn could headcanon themselves as the spiritual heirs to medieval knights and princesses.
Same thing here. If they had to look up close, no doubt U.S. Republicans would find plenty to hate about Russia, but as an autocratic, patriarchal, anti-woke bastion in a sea of woke limp-wristed Eurosocialists on the one side and nonwhite Muslim and Asian barbarians at the gates on the other side, as far as American conservatives are concerned, they look like a Fort Apache of people like them.
Frankensteinbeck
@trollhattan:
Trump has supposedly been very quiet and reserved attending this testimony, and Cohen ignored him. By Trump’s standards those are the weakest of sauce attacks. I wonder what’s up?
Geminid
I was curious about Condi Rice, so I looked her up. It turns out that this summer, she and George W. Bush joined forces on an important diplomatic initiative: persuding the Atlantic Coast Conference to accept Stanford and Southern Methodist University as new members.
Rice has also acquired a stake in the Denver Broncos.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ruckus: Leadershit is good. Another reason they hate Zelenskyy, Z is an actual fucking leader, unlike every elected Rethug in this country. Also, Jewish.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris: They’ve conveniently forgotten the “scratch a Russian, find a Tatar” meme of the late 19th Century.
Ruckus
@Alison Rose:
these psychotic babies
I believe that you might be giving them too much credit.
teezyskeezy
@Frankensteinbeck: I bet you have a guess, but you just don’t want to jinx it. He knows he’s toast (there, now if it ends up being jinxed I can be blamed).
Villago Delenda Est
@trollhattan: TFG lives to be in front of the cameras, bloviating away. The offal of the MSM are more than happy to oblige him.
Bupalos
I agree with this. I’d also extend by saying that a conflict with the west – and Ukraine as the obvious starting ground for that conflict – was probably more politically necessary to Putin than we appreciate. We take Putin’s legitimacy within Russia somewhat for granted. But it really was under threat from westernizing and increasingly prosperous independent states emerging on the post soviet space. Poland and the Baltics are already a problem for his legitimacy as Russians compare their lives. Ukraine joining in was and is more existential for Putin’s political legitimacy than is commonly credited I think
This is just to say it’s not JUST about not being able to admit losing a war. Putin might be able to end the conflict without making such an admission given the propaganda state they’re running there. But not actually ruining Ukraine leaves it as an actual threat to Putin’s political legitimacy. That is an even more basic reason why he can’t stop. And indeed why he will ultimately have to expand this conflict.
Bex
@Betty Cracker: An oldie but a goody. Putin dies and goes to hell. Turns out that inmates of hell can come back for one day for good behavior. Putin finally gets enough points and goes to Moscow. He decides to have a drink to celebrate. Walks into a bar and orders, then starts to talk to the bartender. “I haven’t been here for a while and I’m wondering how the war on Ukraine ended. What about Kyiv? Bartender says “All ours.” Putin says, “Great. what about Liviv?” Bartender says “Ours.” Putin says, “Oh, what about Crimea?” Bartender says, “All ours.” Putin says, “I’m so glad I got to come back! What do I owe you for the drink? Bartender says, “5 euros.”
Bupalos
@Chris: This is excellent. I completely agree.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jackie: More projection on Logan’s part.
Alison Rose
“all-stars” LOLOLOLOL
Yarrow
Have they scheduled a vote for Speaker yet?
Chris
@trollhattan:
Something I was already noting a decade ago before “President Trump” was ever on the horizon – but after the trend of “Republicans sighing dreamily about bare-chested manly man Vladimir Putin” started – was that the U.S. in the 2010s was following a similar trajectory to France in the 1930s.
Namely, a left-wing national leader (Leon Blum) from a historically unpopular and disenfranchised minority (Jewish) was elected. And it broke the right wing’s brains so badly that you had elected legislators chanting “better Hitler than Blum” by the end of the decade. When the country lost big in 1940, the ground for Vichy was already very very fertile.
Watching the French right wing, including much of the army brass, abandon its traditional anti-Germanism was spectacular in context – Germany was an ancestral enemy, French nationalism had fed off of Alsace-Lorraine revanchism for half a century, the wounds from WWI weren’t even closed yet, heck, even the Dreyfuss Affair from the nineteenth century was, supposedly, about Dreyfuss selling out to the Germans. But none of that really mattered when push came to shove, just like none of America’s history with Russia really mattered when push came to shove, because at the end of the day, that kind of nationalism isn’t really aimed at historical enemy regimes: it’s aimed at one’s own fellow citizens.
piratedan
I sure wish the MSM narrative of the Dems sticking the shiv in McCarthy would die…
who negotiated the one person can initiate the MTV rule – McCarthy
who initiated the process – Rep Gaetz
did the Dems vote against him – yes they did, en masse
why? – perhaps because he refused to share the details of upcoming legislation (confirmed by McCarthy’s staff), perhaps because he reneged on a written agreement with the President on the business of the nation, or perhaps they were tired of the rhetoric that cast them as a group of untrustworthy traitors. McCarthy broke promises and agreements with everyone, Dem and GOP alike, why should the Dems support him? For comity, when none was returned?
Subsole
@lowtechcyclist:
See, I think Putin has trapped them there a la Vietnam. No matter who takes over, they have to keep going.
It is the mother of all sunk costs. As long as they keep fighting, they don’t have to admit this dinkyrink little country beat the brakes off them. Doesn’t matter if they’re losing; so long as the game isn’t called, you haven’t lost.
The premier who extricates Russia is the premier who betrayed Russia, by forcing it to face reality. (Boy, who does that sound like…?)
This is, of course, psychotic.
HumboldtBlue
It appears Jenna Ellis was quite upset when pleading guilty in court today (full hearing, 20 mins or so).
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Oh I agree 1000%.
This wouldn’t be the first time Russia did things not in their best interest. Of course, as much as we’d maybe like not to admit it, many humans do things really not in their best interest, some on a way more than regular basis. It seems to be a trait of many, of all brands, religions, political leaning, age, gender, etc.
Subsole
@Villago Delenda Est:
“What the hell does fish sauce have to do with anything???”
Villago Delenda Est
@piratedan: This meme will not die, because the MSM is in the tank for the Rethugs, as their billionaire parasite paymasters wish them to be.
Chris
@Soprano2:
And corruption, don’t forget corruption.
It’s never remembered enough, partly because the “Fascist Efficiency” myth is so big in pop culture, but fascism pretty much always ends up in a cesspool of corruption and impunity that would make the USSR blush. It’s one of the enduring sources of its appeal to elites.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@lowtechcyclist: Not many places fit the bill. Wakanda wouldn’t take them, Elbonia couldn’t pay back in anything but mud, and the Duchy of Grand Fenwick probably doesn’t have the room. Maybe Potsylvania?
Punchy
Yeah, he seems like a serious guy.
Mai Naem mobile
@Juju: thanks for the info. There is absolutely nothing I’ve seen in TFG in the past 8 years that would lead me to believe that he would buy a club just to remove the club’s discriminatory practices – but it’s nice to have facts to validate my opinion.
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
He is also smart, focused, not over confident, thoughtful, realistic and seemingly reflects the goals of the population that he leads. IOW not a bad leader. Rethugs could take notice that demanding and leading are not the same in any way, shape or form. But they won’t, because demanding is how one gets what one wants when one is or acts like a spoiled brat.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
One of the weirdest things about Putin fandom in the West is the fantasy that Russia exists as some rampart against the hordes of Asia, and especially against the Chinese, with even supposedly serious “realists” saying that we need to stay on good terms with Russia because we need them as a counterweight to China.
… Without even getting to whether that’s a good idea or not, people who say this seem to have genuinely not noticed that Russia has absolutely no interest in playing that role. They get along great with China! And with various other Asian countries that are hostile to the West as well! Certainly better than they do with the West. If we make them choose between them and us… well, they already have. And they didn’t choose us.
Alison Rose
These fucking people
not a conservative
cool story, bro
Bupalos
@Subsole: Again, I think the nature of Russian depoliticization and the propaganda state in Russia means that it wouldn’t be that hard for a Russian leader to withdraw from Ukraine while announcing victory. I know that doesn’t sound plausible on it’s face to us, but to put it mildly, we ain’t them. Russia is indeed a very different place, and the number of Russians actually personally politically invested in this conflict is shockingly low.
The problem is that giving up on wrecking Ukraine implies giving up on conflict with the west, which means some kind of gradual reintegration. And reintegration with the West (and comparisons with a rapidly growing European Ukraine) is a real political minefield for folks affiliated with the current regime and even some of the opposition. The current path has to look easier to navigate, indeed maybe the only path a kleptocratic authoritarian can tread.
Matt McIrvin
@Subsole: As long as there are still some Russians left over once they’ve killed or expelled everyone in Ukraine, they’ve “won”. That may eventually happen.
HumboldtBlue
@Punchy:
Chris
@Bupalos:
One of the points LGM made a year ago was that a successful and democratic Ukraine proves to the Russians that a culture that’s very similar to theirs can in fact be vastly more successful than theirs. And the fact that Putin’s gone all-in on “there is no such thing as Ukrainians, they and we are the same people” makes that more true, not less.
Frankensteinbeck
@Villago Delenda Est:
Eh. Note when this narrative appeared. It was straight ‘Republicans in disarray!’ at first. What changed? What the Republicans said changed. During McCarthy’s ousting both Republicans and Democrats were telling the press it was the Republicans’ fault. About the time Scalise lost, Republicans started blaming Democrats, and now the press keeps asking “Why won’t Democrats be responsible and vote for a Republican???”
So I think it’s stenography, with a lean to preferring Republican framings.
lowtechcyclist
@Bupalos:
There are certainly more than a few Dreher types who really believe that places like Russia and Hungary are the evangelical RWNJ’s Promised Land.
But how many times have we seen Rethugs take stands on issues both foreign and domestic that were inconsistent with where they’d always been, but taking those stands seemed to give them an angle to hammer the Dems? It’s become so totally the norm that it feels weird to have to remark on it.
So no, I’m not talking about random individual Trumpers you’ve never heard of. I’m talking about those who are already public figures, spreading party orthodoxy. And the sheep follow.
Sure, if the Dems were defending Russia, they could swing it around in a heartbeat, talking about how the Russian soldiers rape everyone from toddlers to 88 year old grannies. (Just like the ‘rape rooms’ that Bush accused Saddam of having.) That would be a perfectly plausible excuse to pull a 180°. Maybe add on top of that that while Russia’s supposedly anti-abortion, it’s had one of the world’s highest abortion rates for a long time now. Piece of cake.
The key thing is, the rank and file just don’t care all that much about anyplace overseas. Sure, a few do in any given instance, but not enough of them to matter. And what they do know is a fantasy version fed to them by their leaders. Especially as education (and international travel with it) are increasingly becoming Democratic markers.
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
That offal of the MSM need the content to air and print. It doesn’t have to satisfy them or make them happy or sad, they just need content. Someone like ShitForBrains gives them content that – does something. Makes some happy, makes some pissed, either way it fills the slot and keeps them coming back for more.
Mai Naem mobile
@HumboldtBlue: Worst fake crying court scene since Kyle Rittenhouse. Ellis could have at least watched some basic youtube acting classes on good fake crying. Maybe put some visine in her eyes to make them look teary. Also her Twitter feed is still full of hateful garbage stuff. She hasn’t learned a thing.
Matt McIrvin
@Chris: Russia also likes to simultaneously play the role of “great white bulwark against the swarthy heathens” to US conservatives, and “decolonizing bulwark against oppressor America” to allies elsewhere and to US foreign-policy leftists.
geg6
@Bupalos:
Yes, there is a very large Ukranian (and other Eastern European) population here in Western PA, nestled between Youngstown and Pittsburgh. You can find a Ukranian church in pretty much every small town and numerous ones in the larger towns and cities. They settled here to go into the mines and steel mills (see: The Deer Hunter). Lots of blue and
whiteYELLOW flags flying locally.Geminid
@Alison Rose: I guess now the question is whether Emmer will get a floor vote or drop out first, like Scalise did. It’s like that caucus keeps taking two steps forward, then three steps backwards. Sad!
Ruckus
@Subsole:
All of this. 10000%
Countries that want to be far bigger, more powerful than they are or should be, almost always end up getting themselves in deep, pretty much as singular humans do. At one point in time, long ago, that didn’t cost as much because most people didn’t get the info till way after the fight. In today’s world, with info widely available almost instantaneously it is very difficult to play the same game that humanity has played for most of history. The world will likely be a better place when the PTB actually figure out that it is far easier to expose them than is for them to hide behind those that refuse to look.
lowtechcyclist
@Soprano2:
I think it may work better with Hungary than with Russia. For one thing, Hungary isn’t invading other countries, killing and raping thousands of people. (I bet even evangelical women aren’t exactly thrilled by the thought of a nation of rapists.) For another, the sight of Russian soldiers looting toilets and the like exposed just how poor much of Russia is. At least most of Hungary has indoor plumbing.
Bupalos
@lowtechcyclist: This is well put, but I’m not really arguing that it’s the REALITY of this place overseas and it’s outcomes that lock R’s in with Putin. They don’t understand that reality, don’t care about that reality, and don’t have to. I’m more arguing that it’s the symbolism and image, but that the symbolism and image isn’t open to manipulation. Ukraine really is an increasingly open, modern, European place. Putin really is a kind of quasi-medieval kleptocratic emperor. Ukraine really did elect a Jew with 70% of the vote. Putin really does poison and murder any element of modernity that threatens to emerge. I’m not sure R’s have the political technology to reverse the symbolism here to meet goals of negative partisanship. Sometimes an ideological category really can’t be overcome, and I think in this case that would be true.
As long as Republicans remain mired in anti-modern backlash, they don’t have a choice about being at least confusingly open towards or even attracted to Putin’s regime. Even if Dems start talking about their free health care. These birds aren’t the same species but must somewhat flock in neighboring fields.
Chris
@Matt McIrvin:
Traditionally, it’s not coming from the same people. The White Russian types* are the ones doing the “great white bulwark against the swarthy hordes” narrative (those guys were a goldmine of fascist sympathizing in the inter-war period), and the Reds are the ones doing the “decolonizing bulwark against the Western oppressors” narrative (especially post-1945 since it was now clear that the third world was much more fertile ground than Europe for revolution). Post-Soviet Russia has managed the neat trick of doing both at once.
* Yes, yes, add you Big Lebowski memes here.
mrmoshpotato
Good on ya, John!
And the GOP can fuck off into the Sun!
Ken
We’re all hearing “instead of me“, right?
geg6
@geg6:
That should say blue and yellow flags. Ugh.
WaterGirl
@Geminid:
I think this is closer to it, but I think he does have to roll the dice and let it play out.
Assuming he doesn’t get 217, then I think he has only one play. He has to do what Scalise did, and withdraw.
Bupalos
So Trump is going scortched whole-hog and vetoing Emmer in a way that makes it practically impossible for less than 5 reps to hold out or for R’s to even bring it to the floor and risk Dems providing votes. Back to the void here it seems.
WaterGirl
@Jackie:
Let. Them. Fight. :-)
Betty
As soon as I saw that, I said I hope Betty Cracker picks that up for Balloon Juice. Well done!
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: I’m not sure, but I think that wench might be the “bless your heart” version of bitch.
WaterGirl
@geg6: Fixed. :-)
Paul in KY
@Bupalos: If you can’t get excited to vote against that POS JD “Junior Dipshit” Vance…
Paul in KY
@Chris: Excellent point.
Paul in KY
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: How about Mordor?
Matt McIrvin
@Chris: I’ve never gotten entirely why there is a variety of leftist who kinda sorta thinks the USSR still exists, but they seem to and Putin’s propaganda outlets play them well.
Subsole
@Chris:
That’s a very apt connection.
It’s bitterly ironic so many people give France shit for 1940. A large part of that was the Patriotic-er Than Thous deciding they would rather do business w/Hitler than the Left.
And, as is so often the case, these shrewd, flinty-eyed men of industry massively underestimated the cost of selling out…
Subsole
@Chris:
“Such men always refer to it as ‘the New Order’…it is not new, and it is not order.”
Bill Arnold
@Frankensteinbeck:
And they were absolutely in lockstep about this, even using the same words, even when those words didn’t flow in the conversational context.
Message cloning is about the maximum coordination that one can expect from House Republicans, though. They’re mostly very selfish people.
Chris
@Matt McIrvin:
I think their existence is massively overstated in the U.S, but less so in Europe.
And, yeah. I want to say it’s less pro-Russian and more pro-American, but that wouldn’t be entirely right – I never saw nearly the level of apologia for Saddam or the Taliban in the 2000s that I did for Putin starting in 2014. I assume Cold War inertia is a thing.
Subsole
@Matt McIrvin: I think at this rate they may have to broaden their definition of ‘Russian’.
@Bupalos: I can see where you are coming from. You may well be right.
Ksmiami
The GOP needs to die. Period
trollhattan
@Geminid: Condi’s butt is comfortably seated at the Hoover Institute on the Stanford campus, I guess where she and Kissinger exchange noogies.
Ken
@Frankensteinbeck: His lawyers may have carefully explained that he’s already lost this case, the hearing is just to determine the penalties, and any outbursts may increase them.
That theory founders on the fact that Trump never listens to his lawyers, so possibly they just replaced his adderall with valium.
Chris
@Chris:
… that’s, “less pro-Russia and more anti-America.” Sorry, editing expired.
trollhattan
“This doesn’t smell like my usual.” [snort]
Yutsano
@Brachiator: I find out next week either on my birthday or Halloween. Joy!
Matt McIrvin
@Chris: The early American Putin fandom was all about comparing Putin favorably to Barack Obama. I recall the same phrase coming up over and over: Putin was “a strong leader who loves his country,” implying that Obama was neither.
Ken
And the weird thing — based on my very rare brushes with them — is that it’s not the USSR as it actually existed, but the fantasy worker’s paradise and beneficiary of all mankind that was in vogue among leftists through maybe the 1960s.
Do you suppose their parents raised them with that image, and they’ve never questioned it?
Ocotillo
@matt:
Oh you said Russia, I thought you were talking about Texas.
Matt McIrvin
@Ken: I think maybe in some cases it’s a little more sophisticated, that they see Russia as the successor to the USSR as the counterbalance to the imperialist ambitions of the United States, and just want it to continue to keep the US in check. But modern Russia’s identity as a bigoted far-right gangster state doesn’t seem to really matter somehow.
Chris
@Matt McIrvin:
I think the modern extreme-left is just in complete denial of the fact that all the West’s rival power centers today are capitalist regimes themselves, don’t even pretend to be otherwise, and usually practice an even more predatory and unrestrained form of capitalism.
What I think really horrifies them is that the nearest thing we have to a functioning left-wing internationale today is the West. You got a progressive cause you want to push on the world stage, that’s where you start. Heck, the Russians and Chinese literally use this as a selling point: their biggest argument when trying to sway governments in the developing world is “we’ll never pressure you about democracy, civil liberties, and minority rights.” Even when the cause has a ton of Washington headwinds against it, like Loomis at LGM’s incessant calls for Congress to regulate American businesses overseas more, it’s done with the understanding that it’s an absolute nonstarter to expect Moscow or Beijing to take the lead there – if we’re going to make real progress, the most persuadable major powers are in the West.
Now try wrapping your head around that when for your entire life your idea of the wave of the future has been Che Guevara…
NobodySpecial
@Subsole: Hard disagree. This is a country that, when the guy who led the country to victory in the biggest war they’d ever been in died, took about 5 minutes to trash him as a madman in order to solidify the new leader. (Of course, it didn’t hurt that Stalin was an actual madman.)
It’s going to be stupid easy when Putin goes for the next guy to go “That was the criminal idiot’s mistake, Russia’s glory is tarnished because of his actions.” and ceasefire up.
Subsole
@Matt McIrvin:
For a lot of them, I think it’s more to do with the fact that mom, dad, and all those other squares don’t lIke Russia.
Subsole
@NobodySpecial:
Y’know, I hope I am wrong. It would make things much easier if Russia were able to shift gears like that.
Paul in KY
@Ken: A Dutch/British dude who turned traitor back in 1950s and spied for USSR till caught was at one time a devout Christian and was lured to USSR side by thinking that fixing poverty & workers paradise and all that would only come plausibly from Communism and never from Capitalism. This is even though he knew USSR was none of those kumbaya things.
Nettoyeur
The GOP wants to make the US fail because they think the populace will turn to them. They will then learn yet again that:
—-DOJ is by definition essential, andt s activities, incl Trump prosecutions, will go on.
—-When govt shuts down, POTUS gets to decide which bills get paid first. Red States depend on Fed subsidies to meet payrolls.
—-The public will learn pretty fast (the admin will explain with megaphones) that the GOP clown car is responsible and will not reward the behavior….as they have done historically.
—-The debt will go up more. Shutdowns cost money.