I haven’t heard about this anywhere else, but maybe this protest has been reported elsewhere, and I just missed it?
The Jewish Justice Movement Is Being Reborn
At the Jewish Voice for Peace rally, thousands of protesters made clear that they will no longer allow the suffering of the Jewish people to be weaponized against others.
On October 18, several hundred US Jews—along with a few allies—were arrested for sitting in the rotunda of the Capitol building. We chanted, we sang, we dropped banners, and we spoke with a clear message: Stop the war on Gaza; cease the bombing; and end Israel’s war on the Palestinian people, which must no longer be waged in the name of Jews. When we occupied the space, we shed our jackets to reveal identical black T-shirts that read “Not In Our Name” on the front and “Jews Say Cease Fire Now” on the back.
Aided by a melodious shofar, two dozen rabbis spoke about the moral urgency of the moment while thousands of fellow Jews chanted “Cease-fire now!” outside the building. Together, it created a cacophony of righteous trouble in the best tradition of our people. It recalled our ancestors who stood with the oppressed, who helped build the labor movement, and who devoted their lives to anti-racist struggle. For decades, that history often seemed distant. On Wednesday, it felt reborn.
Jewish Voice for Peace organized the rally on just a few days notice, and protesters came ready to be heard. The arresting officers kept asking people if they were going to give up their right to remain silent, and it was as if everyone shouted back, “Hell yeah!”
In many places, Jewish silence on the oppression of Palestinians has reigned for too long. But at this moment of crisis, protesters said what perhaps had gone unspoken at family gatherings or in places of worship: that we have had enough, that we will no longer allow the suffering of our people—the pogroms, the Holocaust, or the Hamas killings—to be weaponized against others. Our history gives us an extra responsibility to speak out for those facing the specter of genocide.
For Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and President Joe Biden “never again” is a slogan, a bumper sticker, a rallying cry for more carnage. But for those inside and outside the Capitol, “never again” means exactly what it’s supposed to: “Never again” will we allow masses of people to be massacred. If the rest of the world turns a blind eye, the Jewish people will raise up and bear witness. David Friedman, the ambassador to Israel under Donald Trump, took to Twitter to say, “Any American Jew attending this rally is not a Jew—yes I said it!” Suffice it to say, Friedman, who spent years as a hack for the openly anti-Semitic Trump, is not in charge of who gets to be Jewish.
Almost certainly to Friedman’s chagrin, protesters made plain that there is nothing anti-Semitic about criticizing the Israeli state and there is nothing bigoted about standing up to US aid and support for Israel’s war on the Palestinian people. The gaslighting and gatekeeping of powerful officials like Friedman have made people of all backgrounds afraid to speak out, lest they be called anti-Semites. Jewish Voice for Peace is saying that people need to stand up against the slaughter nonetheless and that this fear and silence has deadly consequences.
Read the whole thing at The Nation.
What are your thoughts on the protest, on the Jewish Voice for Peace organization, and on the article?
Open thread.
JML
Good for them for standing up for their values and organizing. I think it’s a little unfair to lump Joe Biden in with Bibi Netanyahu, but I get what they’re saying here.
cmorenc
Right or not, realistically the Jewish Justice movement is pissing into the wind insofar as having any effect in the current political environment, with supporting Israel at least momentarily is as close to anything with strong bipartisan support as exists right now. Something needs to happen to force Israel to recognize their country will never be safe or secure without a stable, equitable sharing of the region with a 2-state solution
Eolirin
@cmorenc: It doesn’t matter if it won’t a have an effect on the political situation. There’s still a moral obligation to do it. We can’t sit and talk about the Holocaust and remind people that silence makes you complicit and then not raise our voices, regardless of whether it changes the outcome, while it happens to other people
And I should point out there’s not actually a rebirth of anything going on here. Prominent Jewish scholars have been raising issues over the treatment of Palestinians for a long time. People only pay attention when that treatment can be used as a wedge to attack Israel and through that all Jews everywhere.
HumboldtBlue
Good luck, I hope for their success in stopping the conflict and addressing the overarching issues of statehood, but lumping Biden with Bibi is bullshit.
Damien
As a Jew who believes in justice I support the idea of finding a way to alleviate the suffering of Gazans, but I hear a lot of chanting and not a lot of solutions.
Joe Biden has actually held Bibi back and managed to (it seems) force humanitarian intervention through despite Bibi’s bloodthirst. So kind of a dick move to put them together like that.
Mostly tho, I see idealists making their demands heard; they just don’t seem to have any realistically actionable ones. Lofty calls for peace and working with Palestine are great, but I think at this point unless you’re putting forward a concrete plan then you’re just kind of performing
Will
I don’t like how Israel has handled anything since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. The far left loses me though with these weird assumptions that Israel is the only problem in this scenario.
Palestinians in the Gaza strip skew very young and are predominantly male. An age group that can be manipulated more easily. Unfortunately a lot of them have had the propaganda of hatred beamed into their eyeballs everyday and then reinforced in the real world by actions that were missteps by the Israelis. They won’t be easy to reprogram and some of them never will.
Perhaps we could pressure Israel to change course. In the scenario we did manage to pressure Israel to step back, not meddle in Gaza and allow the free flow of goods and people. Even in that scenario Hamas would still be in charge in Gaza oppressing Palestinians and poisoning the brains of the youth there.
Which is why I don’t understand why the far Left can’t seem to put forth a message that captures both these truths. Why does Free Palestine have to be marketed as only from Israel, why not from Israel and Hamas?
Brachiator
@cmorenc:
The Palestinians and the other Muslim nations in the region must also accept and support a two state solution. The other nations must also be committed to helping the Palestinians, not ignoring or occasionally suppressing them.
ETA. I also recognize that the existence of Gaza and the West Bank as non-contiguous entities complicates things. This is as crazy as Pakistan and East Pakistan being one nation.
Eolirin
@Damien: Biden isn’t ever going to actively support Never Again as a foreign policy directive because doing so is incredibly difficult to accomplish without broad international support that will never exist. And as much as I’d like to belive he genuinely cares about the population in Gaza, his actions thus far seem to be focused primarily on protecting US interests in the area rather than genuine concerns about the conditions in Gaza or the West Bank.
Hold off on ground invasions until we have enough air defense support to deal with drone retaliation, humanitarian support to minimize the geopolitical fallout of Israel committing war crimes against a civilian population and to help us get out American hostages. I see no discussion from the White House about the need to end the apartheid conditions that lead to a perpetual cycle of violence in the area. Not before and I very much doubt we’ll see any after
To be clear, I don’t blame Biden for this and he’s not in the same universe as Netanyahu. But we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.
WaterGirl
@john (not mccain): Who the Muslims will rape first? I find that racist statement offensive.
3-day timeout.
Muslims are not the problem. Hamas is the problem.
dm
i’d heard about it, but part of what i heard was Republicans comparing them to Jan 6 insurrectionists, since they brought their demonstration into the Capitol building.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@john (not mccain): Dude, WTF. Hamas are terrorists. Muslims are not.
Slander of entire groups (or entire world religions) is a big part of the problem, so cut it out!
Damien
@Brachiator: Agreed across the board. Jordan and Egypt recognize Israel’s right to exist…and that’s it. Makes it a legitimately pretty dangerous neighborhood, even leaving aside Hamas.
Pete Downunder
I agree that there has to be a two state solution but I don’t see anyway to get there from where they are now. It’s a sad and apparently intractable situation.
ETA typos
WaterGirl
@Eolirin: It seems to me that Biden has to deal with multiple fronts in this situation and that with all of them he is trying to buy time.
I think he cares about the people of Palestine. I think he cares about their treatment and wants a 2-state solution.
I think at another level he has to try to buy time to strengthen defenses of all the troops, embassies, outposts, whatever, that are in the danger zone, and make sure there isn’t another Benghazi.
As he tries to make sure this fire / war doesn’t get so out of hand that it becomes a more regional problem. Or WWIII.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think Biden is in a position to address the root cause of any of this. First things first.
rp
@Will: Yes…as a Jewish leftie and longtime critic of Israel and its policies towards the Palestinians, I’m getting pretty sick of the reflexive need to paint Israel as the bad guy and the Palestinians as the good guys. It’s obscene, simplistic, and doesn’t accomplish anything. Grow the f*** up.
Dagaetch
Sigh. I’ve already got conversations going about this stuff with friends and family, so I’m just going to share some (IMO) relevant links here.
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/jewish-voice-peace
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-does-not-yet-understand-the-depth-of-israeli-resolve/
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-this-war-is-about/
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/jews-of-the-left
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-is-israel-being-blamed-for-the-hamas-massacre/
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@rp: No kidding. Too many people seem unable to see beyond binary good guys/bad guys simplifications. This shit is complicated, yet so many seem so certain.
zhena gogolia
@Damien: Good comment.
Sasha
I appreciate, but it wasn’t Israel that started this war and it’s disingenuous to insist and demand that Israel is the only one with the power to end it.
Eolirin
@WaterGirl: He’s acting as President of the US, and he has no obligation to actually care about Palestinians beyond a vauge concern for human rights. This is a problem that Israel needs to solve. I don’t blame him for this any more than I blame him for pulling our troops out of Afghanistan with the result of the Taliban taking over and subjugating the population. It was the right thing to do for the US and the ask on the part of what would keep the most Afghani women safe was unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to have to be the one making that call, but Biden does. It goes with the job.
It’s just that I don’t see the US ever getting behind using the tools the US has to force Israel to be better on this front. And we can see that they would be effective; Israel has halted their ground offensive because we told them to and they’re not willing to risk us pulling military support. But a President or Congress using that power to try to force an improvement in living conditions in Gaza or the West Bank would be a bridge too far and they’d be pilloried for being anti-Israel. Illegal West Bank settlement keeps going on because Israel knows we’re not going to create an existential threat for them over it.
SiubhanDuinne
@john (not mccain):
Wow. At least your nym speaks truth: John McCain, for all his flaws, would never have said something so false and vile. In fact during the 2008 campaign, he called out a supporter who was making Islamophobic statements. Please to knock it the fuck off.
Eolirin
@rp: Given that Netanyahu is a large part of the reason why Hamas has the power they do, it’s very hard not to. Israel has an asymmetric power in this conflict.
John S.
@Sasha: It’s also disingenuous to suggest that Israel isn’t responsible for its own actions, or that their behavior is somehow linked to anyone else’s.
cain
@rp:
Word. Here is the thing – the issue is complex but I see right wing Israeli govt and the right wing Hamas as a single package and a barrier to peace.
It’s not even about Jews and Palestinians – it’s about control and they both need to stop.
Hamas actions are horrendous and out of bounds. But good behavior also leads to exploitation as we can see with how Israel treats the West Bank.
What needs to happen is the U.S. and the UN security council not reflexively block anything related to Palestine and the problems they have.
The entire world is treating them like shit.
Tom Levenson
I just deleted a comment. It’s TL:DR? Beware the element in Zirin’s thinking that allows him to assert Bibi and Biden are the same: it’s of a piece with the dirtbag-left’s attack on Democrats and serves not Israel’s or the US’s interest or conscience, but Trump’s and the GOP’s.
I’ll leave to the reader the exercise of thinking what an apocalyptic-Christian-inflected administration would be doing just now.
Kathleen
@WaterGirl: Also release of American hostages.
John S.
@Tom Levenson: I had a similar thought exercise reading an article this morning about how Arab Americans in Michigan are saying “How can we support Biden?”
What viable alternative do they have, voting for Trump? I’m sure that will work out much better for them.
topclimber
@Damien: This protest came a day or two before Biden went to Israel and publicly made humanitarian concerns a clearer priority.
IF the talk turns into reality then perhaps some of these protestors might have a little more faith in our President. Probably not, and at best not much.
The mainstream left needs to say “Never Again” to the US indefinitely enabling an apartheid state in Israel. We are in danger of outdoing our mainly shameful record in South Africa in this regard.
debit
@john (not mccain): WaterGirl, I appreciate your being willing to give a second chance, but this fucker needs to be banned. The comment is not designed to promote conversation or engagement other than outraged responses. It diminishes all of us by being allowed to stay, even with pushback.
I vote you nuke it.
Warblewarble
Perception is everything, if western supporters of Israel are seen by marginalised people in other troubled parts ,as treating the people of Gaza as secondary as human beings. Blowback will come, the west as a whole will be perceived as oppressers of the downtrrodden.
WaterGirl
@Tom Levenson: I would have loved your TL, DR comment! If it’s not too late to fish it out, I hope you will.
eversor
@cain:
It cannot be resolved because it is a religious fight at core. Neither of the two religions involved in it can get what their religion demands as long as the other one exists. So the only two outcomes of this process involve one side being eliminated or driven from the area completely.
Of course the third option is just waiting around for both of those religions to die off and secularism to take control.
Will
@Eolirin: I’m old enough to know this was happening before Netanyahu and before Hamas, maybe we can dispense with the chicken or the egg junk here. Otherwise it was dumb to make this a topic for an open thread.
Geminid
@Damien: Bahrain, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates have diplomatic relations with Israel now, along with trade deals and some military cooperation. Saudi Arabia has been preparing its citizens for normalization for some time now. And while Qatar does not formally recognize Israel, it has played a key role as interlocutor between Israel and Hama, and mediated the ceasefire that ended the 11 day war in May of 2021.
Egypt recognized Israel in 1978, and Jordan did in 1994.
Turkiye, a Muslim country but not an Arab one, is probably the biggest military power along the eastern Mediterranean Sea. They recognized Israel in 1948. The two countries withdrew their ambassadors for much of the last decade, but they mended their ties starting two years ago. Turkish President Erdogan has cancelled his scheduled trip to Israel because of this war, as well as another trip by his energy minister, but he has not pulled his ambassador out. Erdogan’s Foreign Minister, Hakan Fidan, may play a role in mediating a ceasefire, along with Qatari and Egyptian officials.
gvg
@Eolirin: Coincidently the need to protect American interests (which we elected him to do) happens to drag things out and slow down hotheads bent on retaliatory murder. After certain actions, Israel would be committed again to what we view as a wrong course but Bibi views as a way to keep power. Just a coincidence, I am sure.
Look, no President can say too much before it’s happened. It makes us weaker in a negotiation which is still ongoing. There is also no consensus of support for such a position. Some of us want it and others are really against it. I don’t think there is even a clear positive end goal beyond try not to let the mid east get worse and try and stop Israel from screwing their future options worse than they have.
Stalling for time is a policy choice in itself, and I really don’t think it as a simple as just protecting our troops.
Tom Levenson
@WaterGirl: Nope.
Eolirin
@Warblewarble: We are rapidly approaching a position in which genuine anti-semites will use the actions of Israel to force a choice between the existence of Israel as a state and the existence of the Jewish people as a whole.
@Tom Levenson: Gaza would have a million dead, at least, Iran would use this as justification to fully enter into the war, the US would withdraw all support despite having egged on the invasion and would use the fallout, possibly literal, as an excuse to round up Jews.
Likud is an existential threat to the Jewish people.
WaterGirl
@debit: Fair enough. The policy doesn’t say “you get one warning” it says “you get an immediate time out”. That’s 3 days.
Not that I particularly think this person will come back for conversation.
Eolirin
@eversor: That’s not even remotely true, and is such a dumb ahistorical reading of all ethnic conflicts the world over. This is a fight over land and power, just like all of them always are. If there’s no religious differences it’ll be skin color or language or some other thing. And once there’s a way to differentiate one group as other there’s a way to gin up enough hate to kill them and take their stuff.
We get rid of religions we’ll be having wars over sports teams or which pop star you like more.
DaBunny42
@topclimber: So in the face of Hamas’ murder, rape, kidnapping, and torture of thousands, it’s most important that we say “Never Again”…to Israel. Gotcha.
@eversor: That’s a remarkable unthoughtful and inaccurate take on the situation and on religion in general. I won’t even bother to engage, just say: Good luck waiting for Judaism to die out, don’t hold your breath. Or did you mean you’re waiting for Jews to be powerless? If so, come out and say what you mean.
Eolirin
@gvg: I didn’t say just protecting our troops, I said protecting our interests, which, yes also includes avoiding a large scale regional war breaking out, or excessively damaging our diplomatic position re: human rights.
And yes, that’s exactly what he’s supposed to be doing.
What I don’t see clear evidence of is that US foreign policy gives a shit about Palestinians beyond that. And, honestly, it doesn’t need to. They’re not the US’s problem, not directly at least. But the treatment of Palestinians is a problem for all Jews, because it’s a weapon that will be used against us regardless of our ability to do anything about it, and so it’s something we really need to get on the right side of.
pajaro
1. A recent poll from one of the Hebrew (only) Israeli newspapers shows that close to 50% of Israelis support a pause before attacking, presumably primarily to attempt to get the hostages back. 30% support an immediate invasion, and 20% don’t know what the best option is.
2. It is possible to condemn unreservedly the crime against humanity committed by Hamas while arguing strenuously that Israel must not commit war crimes of its own in its legitimate actions in self-defense. J Street has consistently done so, and it isn’t the only American organization that’s primarily Jewish that is doing so.
3. An immediate (and therefore unconditional) cease-fire–as opposed to temporary cessations that allow for humanitarian assistance to occur–leaves Hamas in control of both Gaza and the hostages, with no assurance of return, with Hamas’ safety guaranteed, with their ability to say they are the future of the Palestinian resistance, guaranteeing the overturning of already weakened PA in the West Bank.
4. I don’t know the right answer here, but I think that there can be no two-state solution so long as Hamas is in control of Gaza, very simply because they will not allow it.
Cameron
I don’t even think about this much anymore, despite the fact that Senator Graham and assorted others are using this series of events to pimp a war with Iran. I grew up in Iran and Saudi Arabia; went to school with Palestinians and had Palestinian neighbors. Came back to USA right after the Six-Day War to start in at Northeastern Liberal College. First dinner, sat down with other newbies so we could share our backgrounds; when I mentioned I grew up in SA, one of the Northeastern Liberal Collegians offered that he could almost feel sorry for Arabs if they weren’t so stupid. Much nodding of agreement around the table. I found this a tad disturbing, but said nothing.
Once I got kicked out of college and went to work, I didn’t think any more about it. Nobody at the railroad gave a shit about the Middle East. It’s depressing that all these years later (now that I’m paying attention), it doesn’t sound like anything has changed or if it has, it hasn’t changed for the better. Much luck to the peace-makers.
coin operated
@topclimber:
This.
Anyway
This is primarily a conflict over land – both sides have valid claims. Religion is secondary here (IMO).
topclimber
@DaBunny42: You did kind of get it, because as long as we enable apartheid Israel without question, there will be more slaughters in the future, be they innocent Israelis or Palestinians.
FelonyGovt
@rp: Was going to write something but you pretty much summed up what I was going to say, better. I’m sick of the anti-Semitism masquerading as (extremely valid) critiques of Israel.
Quaker in a Basement
My Jewish lefty pal also uses this phrase: “weaponization of Jewish suffering.” It captures a lot in a few words.
The violence in the region has persisted for decades. Civilians deserve the promise of a life free from terror and deprivation. The Israeli government has long insisted that vigorous suppression of violent resistance is the only way to deliver peace to its citizens. That suppression has failed to achieve the promised result. Sadly, this failure will likely be used to justify even stronger measures. The suffering on both sides will continue.
Cheers to the protesters who seek a different, more effective solution.
Warblewarble
Thank you Cameron, there is much that all should reflect on in what you say.
rp
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. I HATE Netanyahu and the current Israeli government, but equating them with Hamas is insane. Would you equate Bush and Bin Laden?
Eolirin
@DaBunny42: No, it’s not in response to Hamas killing people.
It’s in response to the decades of apartheid conditions and to the empowerment of Hamas by the Likud government to prevent any resolution to them that have led us to the brink of a conflict we won’t be able to come back from.
There are 2 million people packed into Gaza. You can’t turn off the water in a desert and not commit genocide, and especially when half the population are children, you can’t come back from the loss of life you create. That’s what they were about to do until the US convinced them to open humanitarian corridors.
Every Jew in the world will be blamed for that kind of massacre, despite the fact that most of us had nothing to do with it. Every Jew that reflexively dismisses or equivocates on the issue of the treatment of Palestinians feeds into that looming threat.
Even if this situation is resolved and tensions ease, if Israel doesn’t make some very large and very fundamental changes it’ll remain a ticking time bomb. We can’t keep rolling the dice and hoping the US isn’t currently being lead by a crazy person when a crisis pops up.
rp
Hamas’ attack was as bad as 9/11 and in many ways far worse. It’s one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. What is an appropriate response by the Israeli government at this point in time? Not 20 years ago. Not 50 years ago. Now.
I had a friend say “yes, Hamas is evil and Israel should destroy them. But they can’t wreck Gaza in the process and kill innocent Palestinians who don’t support Hamas.” Sure, and I’d like to eat ice cream and slide down rainbows with my talking unicorn. Israel is being asked to do the impossible.
Eolirin
@rp: Bush made torture the official policy of the United States and started an unnecessary war against a country that was not a threat to us that killed far more people than 9/11. Bin Laden comes out positively in that comparison.
rp
Now that I agree with.
Annamal
@DaBunny42: moral atrocities don’t balance like equations. The leadership on one side causing the deaths and maiming of children do not justify the leadership of the other side doing the same.
Matt McIrvin
@rp:
So tempted to say “no, Bush killed more people.”
But I get what you’re saying, I just think this kind of fretting over equivalence becomes a mug’s game. In this situation I am for civilians trying to live their lives and against the people killing them with rockets and bullets. There may not be moral equivalence in their causes for action between Hamas and Israel but it doesn’t mean Israel deserves any kind of carte blanche either.
WaterGirl
it’s all so complicated. I just want Balloon Juice to be a place where we can think through the situation and talk through the situation, learn something (at least for people like me), and have a safe place to do all of that.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: I think you deserve credit for posting on such a difficult and contentious topic. That took guts.
rp
@Matt McIrvin: I loathe Bush and he was a horrible president. But I’m still taking him over Bin Laden in almost every situation imaginable (walking my dog, delivering my mail, running my country, etc.)
As to your latter point — no one is saying Israel should have carte blanche.
cain
@eversor: I disagree that it is about religion. For many religion is a tool to gain power and influence. Hamas has completely lost the plot on their objectives.
Israel manipulates Gaza using it as a way to destroy any credibility that Gaza has.
I know that Joe and Bibi isn’t in the same universe – but do realize that in the UN Security Council – Palestinian issues are never addressed because the U.S. will always block it. Israel should not get away with human right abuses anymore than Hamas should.
The UN should be playing a larger role here – but they haven’t.
Matt McIrvin
@Pete Downunder: I’d personally be happy with a two-state solution or a one-state solution. The one state would have to be a democratic one that gives equal political rights to Jews and Muslim Palestinians (and everyone else).
But the one-state option would inevitably mean that Israel can’t, in the long run, be a Jewish state, which was its reason for existence. As a non-Jew who imbibed American liberal secularist/pluralist ideas from early childhood, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the whole “Jewish state” idea, but I understand that there were extremely legit reasons for Jews in the 1940s to think they needed one, that to some extent those reasons have not gone away (if anything they’re more noticeable now than they were a few years ago), and that I’m not really the person with the background to critique it.
So that would leave the two-state solution, if we want states in the region that care at all about democracy and human rights.
But neither of those options seems close to happening.
Annamal
@rp: There are no easy answers and a lasting solution would involve years of painfully chipping away at peace in the face of a number of people who have only known war and anger. The alternative is an endless escalation of dead children. I feel like murdering children in the name of a political cause is wrong and that should be the first and highest consideration even if your political opponents disagree.
cain
It isn’t meant to equate – it’s meant to look at the two of them as a packaged deal where both are using each other. You have to focus on both.
And please, if we removed Hamas from the picture – you saw the situation in the West Bank. Even if you were to argue taking Hamas out the Gaza people have seen what a peaceful and subjugated Palestinian population also means.
It’s a packaged deal. You need to address both of them. I’ll let diplomats figure out what that is.
cain
bin Laden was a creation of the CIA. Just like Hamas was funded by Israel/Mossad. I’m willing to bet that someone has been sharing ideas. The plan is clear – to create an opposing force of religious zealots to create conflict.
In both cases, it came back and bit us in the ass and created 9/11 style of terror.
WaterGirl
@Geminid: Thanks. It’s hard not to think about it, so even with differing opinions, a safe place to talk seems like a good thing. A terrible thing is happening, and people are dying, so it can’t all be puppies and flowers and politics.
Will
My question is how does Hamas get removed? They haven’t held an election since they won power. It’s hard to imagine an Israeli government that recognizes a two state solution as well as stop settlement expansion will cause Hamas to lay down its weapons or cede power, much less hold elections.
I’ve seen suggestions there would be a popular peaceful uprising against Hamas that would sweep them from power. Some of that seems to be wishful thinking to excuse the behavior of Palestinians that support Hamas. Do the Gulf nations arm dissidents against Hamas? That would be a civil war confined to a very small area and would likely be insanely deadly.
But is that an acceptable solution if that is what it comes down to? Palestinian on Palestinian violence to decide their future?
Matt McIrvin
@cain: Well, and also the product of a bunch of rich assholes in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, with money gotten from US and other Western desire for petroleum, who were somehow never the target of serious US retaliation.
cain
@Matt McIrvin: Both have claims on the land – it used to have both Jews and Muslims living together in peace to begin with. That’s how it should end up again with the name of Palestine. Israeli was a name created by Zionists – let Jewish statehood die and be a shared space.
The creation of Israel did not stop anti-Semitism. That still needs to be addressed. Magicallyc reating a homeland for them – yet our Jewish friends are still threatened by right wing, nazi forces everywhere.
cain
@Matt McIrvin: Absolutely – you can add the strong man led petro-states as well.
ETA woo.#69!
cain
I would offer a merged Palestinian state with Gaza and West Bank united under the Palestinian Authority who would then be obligated to create more than one party and set up a Democracy. As an added incentive – the UN would offer membership in the UN.
Immediately, countries should offer trade agreements and investments.
Bring prosperity, stop the cycle of violence and at least have the ability to identify with a homeland and a passport.
Will
@cain: I can agree but why name it Palestine? Why do we need these stupid old names. Why can’t they come up with something new for once. Why is it so important that one side be able to stamp its name on the project in victory?
Matt McIrvin
@Brachiator:
Functionally even the West Bank itself is a non-contiguous entity–Israel effectively has it chopped up into a constellation of little enclaves like the “homelands” in apartheid-era South Africa.
Will
@cain: You’ve made an offer of a scenario. It doesn’t address though how Hamas goes away. Or are you suggesting arming the Palestinian Authority to go in and remove Hamas? Will there be popular support for that in the Gaza Strip? Could it thus undermine the Authority in the West Bank? Those would be serious questions that would need to be considered.
Alison Rose
@cain:
I want a peaceful coexisting solution, but why should the whole place be called Palestine? It was originally called Judea, renamed Syria-Palaestina by the Roman Empire when they enslaved or killed the Jews living there and destroyed our Temple. I’m not saying the whole land should be reverted to Judea, but calling it Palestine would not be appropriate either.
Geminid
There are a lot of commentators in this war, some more informed than others. One very well informed source is former IDF intelligence chief Amos Yadlin, and his interview with American Ben Birnbaum was published by Politico 3 days ago.
It’s titled, “‘Netanyahu Heard All the Warnings’ Says Former Intelligence Chief.” The Yadlin quote refers not to the October 7 attack but rather to warnings given the PM by current and former security chiefs that his reckless drive to weaken Israel’s judiciary was harming Israel’s national security.
It’s a wide ranging interview, covering matters ranging from the situation in Lebanon, the hostages, and the possibility of a two state solution. A self-described “security hawk and political dove,” Yadlin believes a Palestinian state is possible and necessary, but that it must be an unarmed state; “We have seen what they want to do to us,” he explains.
Yadlin is still very tied in to his country’s security establishment, and he gave his estimate of Israel’s war aims. One conclusion I came away with is that a major ground invasion is a matter of when, not if.
I would urge people interested in this conflict to read the interview, because the course of this war will be determined by people like Amos Yadlin, not people like David Shirin.
cain
@Alison Rose:
Well whatever comes out between the party. It’s just my opinion because that’s what it was before. If people want to call it Judea and Israel or whatever. I leave that up to the diplomats.
Geminid
@Will: If former IDF intelligence chief Amos Yadlin is correct, Israel’s political and military leadership intends to end Hamas’s 16 year rule over Gaza themselves. Hamas fighters and their allies like Palestinian Islamic Jihad will have their say in the matter, but that appears to be Israel’s intention.
I refer to Yadlin’s recent interview I spoke of at #75.
cain
Hamas is embedded in the population – they aren’t going to go away. The only thing you can do is remove their influence by offering something better. There are probably 1-2 generations who have known nothing else but attacks. They’ve never known peace anymore than Israel has.
Offering stability and an identity – something they don’t have is worth doing it. You could even help build trust by setting a date for that merger and focusing on the West Bank and improving the conditions there as a sign of good faith that the circumstances have changed.
I’m not a diplomat, and I don’t know the situation with the players, but if you want to remove power and influence from a group you have to offer them concrete things that addresses their pain points and there must be follow through.
Bill Arnold
In the style of similar presentations of Russian destruction of Ukrainian towns and cities,
five image pairs of (formerly?) populated areas in Northern Gaza, with a slider to show before and after. Sobering.
Northern Gaza reduced to rubble: Satellite images show before and after air strikes (Laura Llach & Sudesh Baniya with AP, 27/10/2023)
Russia’s destruction of Grozny is a closer match, politically. (Probably including (anti-Muslim) attitudes of some Israelis of recent (post-Grozny destruction) Russian origin.)
I’ll also impolitely note that the German Nazi reprisal ratio in areas where there were anti-Nazi partisans was typically about 10-1. (Typically with selected villagers and and bullets, not random people and high explosives.) The IDF would scream with outrage over such comparisons. Some of that outrage would be justified, maybe 1/2 .
Will
@Geminid: Yeah, I haven’t read the Yadlin piece and will, though I’ve read something similar to what you have referenced. I think Israel intends to do that, but I just don’t know how successful they will be at it. That’s going to be a very tough hill to climb.
cain
@Matt McIrvin:
re: Pakistan / East Pakistan – the situation doesn’t quite map.
Culturally, Pakistan and Bangladesh are completely different. There is also separated by non-trivial distances. That isn’t the case here. I’m not aware of vast cultural differences between West Bank and Gaza. There probably is, but not like Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Google tells me that the distance between Gaza and the West bank is 57 miles. Shit, that’s like going to the airport and back for me.
Geminid
@Bill Arnold: You don’t have to go back to the Second World War for analogies. More recent battles over Aleppo, Mosul and Falluja are better examples, I think. Even if they received much less attention.
But if you want to use examples from the Second World War, why don’t you use pictures of Dresden after the British bombed it, or Tokyo after we firebombed it?
Geminid
@Will: The Israelis know this will be a tough fight with a lot of losses. I think they’re going to make it though. They’re fighting inside of Gaza right now. This is probably a heavily armed raid like they made two nights ago, but pretty soon they will go in and not stop until they reach the coast. And that will only be the start of a very violent battle.
Bill Arnold
@Geminid:
Yep. Winners seldom get prosecuted for major war crimes.
Though during WWII the rules were laxer.
The Geneva conventions and the other related rules are much stricter, with addition protections for civilians and civilian infrastructure/artifacts.
Subsole
@Will:
Because a lot of Leftier-than-thous only care about Palestine as a way to let their bitch-ass Mom know that she ain’t the boss of them. And also get a dig in against The Man.
They could not care fucking less about Palestinians.
They aren’t the entire left, but godalmighty they are loud.
Bill Arnold
@Subsole:
A lot of leftier-than-thous are members of hive minds, rattling around in echo chambers, defended every bit as vigilantly against new unapproved information as any far RW nutcase echo chambers.
Those that do not live in echo chambers can be exceptionally clear thinkers.
Betty
I read that this group or some allies just shut down Grand Central Station.
Mike in Pasadena
Glad to see an opposition to the philosophy of “kill every Palestinian we can, bulldoze all of Gaza, and salt the earth!”
MisterDancer
Two things:
Asking Arab-Americans to just accept that Biden is the best America could have at this moment, and to not raise serious concerns about his approach…I know y’all know better. That is not how you support people under attack, who see their homelands and distant families under threat, whose region is under immense stress.
There’s a Palestinian-American child, dead due to an Islamophobic bigot. His Mom stabbed, as well. That whole community, across the country, has real reason to be scared.
Biden has done, in my eyes, a lot to address concerns. That communication and connection needs to be encouraged and strengthened, not poo-pooed because it’s inconvenient and uncomfortable for the rest of us to consider, in these moments.
The other thing, is that you cannot unwind centuries of Antisemitism thru aggressive behavior. The borders, and names, in that region are “old”, and there are echoes of Colonist thinking in just asserting that changing it all up again will magically fix this issue.
These folx WaterGirl posted up do have the right of it. It will take, on all sides, humility and seeing the humanity in everyone involved to make lasting peace. Yes, that’s FUCKING HARD. No, we ain’t got the solve on this board.
It’s OK to assert there’s an issue, even one as emotionally brutal and morally painful as this, that does not have an easy solve. That we sometimes can only pay loud witness to tragedy, boost voices of the surviors.
But that, too, is hard work. I think, in what Adam does, that has as much value as his analysis, as much worth as his thoughts on the politics. And although I don’t comment in those posts much, I strive to bear witness there, as well as in this conflict so close to my artistic work of decades.
I know that’s maybe not the best words, and I’m rambling a bit, but I think that’s OK, as well.
Mike in Pasadena
Too bad the protest is here, but I guess it’s good for Rs and Ds in DC to see the sentiment expressed by a few Jews here.
WaterGirl
@Subsole: There is a section of the far left – on a lot of issues – where I wish they would all off the end of the continuum, because where they really belong is on the right.
WaterGirl
@Mike in Pasadena: Are you in NYC? Not sure when you say “too bad the protest is here”, exactly what you mean by “here”.
Mike in Pasadena
@Bill Arnold: Geneva Conventions were ignored by the CIA and the US Army in Iraq and after 9/11 generally because of “old blood and guts in the teeth” & “we have to go to the Dark Side” Dickless Cheney. See also NY Times columnist Thomas Friedman and his famous Suck.On.This. Which he now denies but you can still watch on youtube in spite of his denials. And who was it that said America must just go in and slap another country around every couple of years to show ’em who’s boss. That thinking led to torture such as waterboarding among other techniques, a practice for which we hung more than a few Japanese after WWII. I know, I know, we apologized so that made everything much better, everything is cleared up and all forgiven cuz we said we’re sorry. Not! to quote Madonna.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@rp: yes
Mike in Pasadena
@WaterGirl: I meant here in the US, where the protest in DC was.
Sasha
@John S.: No one is suggesting otherwise, but Israel didn’t pick this fight.
Tim in SF
When I see them lumping in Biden with Bibi, I’m inclined to dismiss them out of hand as useful idiots, regardless of the merit of the rest of their message.
Geminid
@Subsole: I think that the many of the Palestinians’ Western allies on the Left are hurting them by embracing maximalist goals. Some of the Arab countries, like the UAE and Saudi Arabia, are more constructive because they encourage a more practical approach than, “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free.”
Palestinian leaders bitterly denounce the normalizing of ties with Israel, but I’m not sure Palestinians are well represented by their leaders either.
Annamal
@Sasha: They started it is not a justification for moral atrocities.
Cameron
@Mike in Pasadena: I remember the bit about slapping some little country around, but I don’t remember who said it. Maybe Doughy Pantload?
Splitting Image
@Cameron:
Good memory there, although Jonah Goldberg said that he was quoting Michael Ledeen when he said it.
Sasha
@Annamal: The government of Gaza, Hamas, declared war on Israel and Israel is responding. And there is no pretty way to wage war — people who shouldn’t die, will. That’s the nature of of beast.
The best that can be done is to prosecute war as quickly, cleanly, and ethically as possible. And it is Israel’s responsibility to do exactly that (and props on Biden for demanding just that).
Annamal
@Sasha: So if Israeli soldiers had attacked Palestians before Hamas committed that atrocity then that would have been a declaration of war as well?
Mike in Pasadena
@Cameron: It was Michael Ledeen. Here’s the full quotation:
“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.”
Sasha
@Annamal: Did Israeli soldiers, on orders and planning of their government, launch an unprovoked, surprise, full-scale land-sea-air operation on Gaza during peacetime, deliberately targeting innocent civilians, including unsuspecting music festival attendees and families and infants, for kidnap & slaughter & etc.?
zzyzx
I find the whole thing depressing.
The argument I’ve heard for the Hamas attack is that its very plan is to force Israel to be more vicious in return in order to force everyone into a camp and maybe then Israel will be destroyed, a plan that’s both wishful thinking (the “the colonists will leave if we hurt them” strategy doesn’t work when the people living there think of the land as their historic homeland and don’t have a place to go home to) and so insanely cynical.
But I can’t support what Israel is doing now. I don’t see what it’s accomplishing other than killing innocents. And then you see the horrid reports of just how bad the news is but it’s all from unreliable sources and the people promoting it are those who were cackling about the attacks so I don’t know what to believe.
As I’m recovering from Covid, I might feel the need to go to a local rally in a week or two, but it sucks when you just think everyone is being awful…
Annamal
@Sasha: has Israel been sending waves of missiles into Palestine killing Palestinians civilians? Are the deaths of those civilians less horrific because they happened in houses rather than a music festival?
Matt McIrvin
@zzyzx: Terrorist groups ever since the 19th century “propaganda of the deed” types have embraced this idea that you carry out brutal attacks on civilians to provoke the other side to be ten times as brutal and eventually the people become disgusted with them and overthrow the system, and you win. Maybe there’s a case I missed but I’ve never heard of this strategy working.
Bill Arnold
@Sasha:
There is a pretty solid argument, being made vigorously in Israel in particular, that the current government and previous B. Netanyahu-led governments allowed the massive Hamas pogrom though their actions (moving defensive forces to the West Bank, coddling Hamas and Islamic Jihad over decades, allowing political arsonists (and ruling coalition members) Ben Gvir and B. Smotrich to commit political arson.) and inactions (astonishing and as yet unexplained intelligence failure of a highly monitored area).
That it would have either not happened or been an order of magnitude smaller, probably with a smaller response, had others been in power.
Bill Arnold
@Sasha:
Gazans Release Names of 6,747 People They Say Were Killed in Israeli Strikes – The detailed list from the Hamas-controlled health ministry — including ages, genders and ID numbers — followed President Biden’s comment that he had “no confidence” in its figures. (Vivian Yee, Oct. 26, 2023)
Checking large-enough randomly chosen samples of these lists will be straightforward once the war settles down.
Targeting of civilian areas (even with large-payload precision-guided munitions) is deliberate targeting of civilians. If there were thousand-frames-per-second high-resolution surveillance videos of civilians being blown into pieces (or maimed) with Israeli high explosives, would you object to press conferences that showed such videos in slow motion?
Sasha
@Annamal: Launching missiles into Gaza to destroy Hamas infrastructure, not to specifically target Palestinian civilians. The deaths of civilians is always horrific, but the unintended killing of civilians (who were ordered by Hamas to not evacuate) is not remotely the same as the intentional, deliberate massacre of them.
It’s a horrible tragedy. As horrific as German and French and Italian civilians being killed as the Allies advanced on the Axis. But I’m not going to equate the unintended killing of innocents during war with the premeditated and targeted extermination of them.
Sasha
@Bill Arnold: No lie. Bibi needs to be run out of office on a rail and directly into a prison cell.
Sasha
@Bill Arnold: War sucks. And it is vile that Gazans are forced to suffer because of the sins of their leaders, especially when Israel warned civilians to evacuate and Hamas ordered them to stay.
Bill Arnold
@Sasha:
That is what the IDF are saying that they are doing, but it is clearly at least partially false. See the before and after pictures for areas in Norther Gaza linked at #79. If the mix of munitions that the IDF is using include a high percentage of unguided weapons, then the intent is indiscriminate destruction, akin to what Russia (a Hamas ally!) is doing to Ukrainian cities near the line of control. In the Ukrainian interior, Russian attacks are precision-guided; when e.g. Ukrainian apartment buildings are hit by hypersonic guided missiles, it is deliberate. (Unless a failed shootdown attempt with patriot missile was made, that deflected it.)
Sasha
@zzyzx: “destroying the greyzone” That was ISIL’s strategy too.
Annamal
@Sasha: So you accept and the Israelis accept that their direct actions will kill children in horrific ways. How is that not an atrocity?
Sasha
@Bill Arnold: And the IDF warned Gaza to clear out of the area because of that. And Hamas told its Gazans not to evacuate because Hamas wants martyrs, voluntary or not.
Sasha
Sasha
@Annamal:
The IDF is not deliberately targeting children and are in fact making attempts to avoid civilian casualties. It’s horrible … and it’s not remotely the same thing as what Hamas did. Motives matter.
What’s a true atrocity is that the unintended killing of Gazans is what Hamas actually wants. They knew exactly what they were doing and what would happen. They declared war on Israel by enacting an operation to deliberately massacre and brutalize as many civilians as possible in the most savage and traumatizing ways possible to provoke an obligatory response. And they are even making efforts to maximize casualties of their own people by cutting off routes of evacuation.
What’s happening in Gaza is horrifying … and it is entirely the fault of the Gazan government — Hamas — because it would happily force their citizens to become involuntary martyrs in service of its nihilist, genocidal ideology.
Sasha
Annamal
@Sasha: So why is Israel playing into the hands of Hamas by taking actions that they know will kill children? Why are they not enabling civilian evacuation. Why are they continuing to allow pogroms in the West Bank. If people can’t leave and Israel is bombing them then they are killing children deliberately in a horrific way and they are making a deliberate choice to do that. Why aren’t the Israeli leadership responsible for their own moral choices.
Sasha
@Annamal: It seems that we both agree that this continuing horror is entirely the fault of Hamas, and thus that they deserve the lion’s share of condemnation for what happens.
Bill Arnold
@Sasha:
The people in the area understand that that is an order of expulsion of … the Palestinians. Maybe not correctly, but seriously, what reason do they that have to believe that Israel will not set up the Northern Gaza strip as a zone depopulated of anyone not Israeli (and probably very few Arab Israelis, ’cause military policy), and that this will not be akin to, as the Palestinians might say, a lesser-Nabka? Many/most civilians have left/will leave, for fear of they and their families being ripped apart by Israeli bombs, but some will remain.
Sasha
@Bill Arnold: War sucks. No lie.
wjca
Briefly: “Somebody ought to do something!”
That has the advantage of being utterly unspecific as to what “something” might be — thus avoiding arguments over that. Not to mention avoiding the question of the feasibility of any particular proposed solution.
Also evaded is who that somebody might be. Perhaps a local (probably, but not necessarily, national) political figure. Without regard to whether that something, whatever it is, is even notionally within his office’s remit. Not to mention whether he has the power to do whatever it is.
wjca
You could well be right about withdrawing support. But the US government rounding up Jews? Seriously?
a) I just can’t see that even being tried,
b) How do you imagine it could possibly work? It’s not like there’s a registry that tracks people by religion. Nor a way to tell who is observant, who is holidays only, or who has totally dropped out of the religion. Or, if you are going by ancestry, how much is a big enough percentage? (We all know how well the whole “one drop” nonsense worked with blacks.)
Actually, I think it would be easier to solve the whole Israelis/Palestinians problem than to implement this.