Kay pointed this out in the last thread and it’s worth a post of its own:
PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — A Michigan jury convicted a school shooter’s mother of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday in a first-of-its-kind trial to determine whether she had any responsibility in the deaths of four students in 2021.
Prosecutors say Jennifer Crumbley had a duty under Michigan law to prevent her son, who was 15 at the time, from harming others. She was accused of failing to secure a gun and ammunition at home and failing to get help for Ethan Crumbley’s mental health.
The guilty verdicts — one for each student slain at Oxford High School — were returned after roughly 11 hours of jury deliberations.
Did the founders have gun safes and trigger locks? I’ll await the appeal of this verdict to the Supreme Court to litigate that crucial originalist question.
Baud
I hope she gets to keep her guns.
Old School
I haven’t been paying attention to this. Does the father have a separate trial?
Edit: Answering my own question. James Crumbley’s trial is in March.
Elizabelle
@Old School: I put up a bunch of WaPost excerpts with details on the previous thread. Did not know this one was up.
I am glad Mrs. Crumbley was convicted.
Yutsano
@Old School: I wonder why they didn’t opt to get tried together. It does seem fitting to try both parents although after the wife’s conviction the husband is much better off pleading guilty now.
Betty Cracker
I read some analysis while the trial was ongoing that implied the case was striking fear in the hearts of law-abiding, gun-owning parents, who saw the charges and thought “there but for the grace of God…”
Good! Anything that dents gun owner impunity in this country is a great thing, IMO. Gun nuts in the legislative and judicial branches have made it impossible to regulate access, so if we have to go after individuals for gross negligence to stem the carnage, so be it.
scav
Parental responsibilities. oh dear.
Alison Rose
Posted this in the other thread: The four kids who will never get to grow up thanks to this fucked up family.
twbrandt
@Yutsano: They were originally going to be tried together, but I think Jennifer Crumbley wanted a separate trial. Not sure why.
Trivia Man
@Yutsano: my read was both hoped to blame the other parent and personally walk away
Suzanne
@twbrandt: According to SuzMom, she threw the dad under the bus a bit. That’s probably why she wanted a separate trial.
Alison Rose
@Yutsano: It was the parents themselves (well, their lawyers) who requested separate trials. To “avoid prejudice and promote fairness” whatever the fuck they think that means.
The wife was apparently having an affair, so…take from that what you will.
rikyrah
It’s not that I disagree with the prosecutions.
I just never thought we’d see this as a path taken by prosecutors.
RESPONSIBLE gun ownership HAS TO ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING.
Time and time again, these shooters are killing WITH LEGALLY BOUGHT WEAPONS OF DEATH.
You SHOULD be held responsible for having a weapon of death.
twbrandt
As I live in Michigan, I’ve been following this pretty closely. That is one fucked-up family. As a former neighbor of theirs put it, “That kid [Ethan, the shooter] didn’t have a chance.”
The school administration bears a lot of responsibility too. Just before the shootings, they allowed Ethan to stay in school right after they had a conference with the parents about the disturbing behavior their son was exhibiting and asking them to take him home. They refused to take him home, so the school allowed him to return to class.
Manyakitty
@twbrandt: I worry about the Boebert kids in that light.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker:
the gun nuts will try to make it about the guns…but it’s about parents not acting in response to an obvious threat.
guns make the threat WORSE, of course, but the issue here is parental negligence that got someone else’s kids killed.
Redshift
A couple of months ago the mother of the six year old in Virginia who shot his teacher (not fatally) was convicted of felony child neglect.
I hope that also strikes fear into the hearts of self-identified “law abiding gun owners.”
Kay
@rikyrah:
It’s a lot to think about though because while we have a “bad parent” standard in the case of abuse and neglect, that’s not criminal and mom’s behavior wouldn’t meet a criminal child abuse standard. However. Not aIl states impose a statutory “duty to protect” on parents but Michigan does so I think it’s best to think of it as a duty case rather than a negligence case – she had a duty to protect her child and protect the community from her child.
Betty Cracker
I suspect Ms. Crumbley screwed herself with the jury when she said looking back, she wouldn’t change any of the decisions she made. Four kids are dead and HER kid is locked up for life without parole. What kind of parent facing that reality would have no regrets?
Elizabelle
The Crumbleys had a meeting at the high school the morning of the shooting. They were shown pictures their son had drawn. A gun, bullets, a bleeding body.
They neglected to mention they had just bought this child a gun. They said they had to go to work. Being understood this was “a mental health problem” and not a disciplinary issue, the child was allowed to go back to class. No one searched his backpack. Surprise!
Two hours later, he opened fire.
(Paraphrased from WaPost excerpts on the previous thread.)
BellaPea
I read the WaPo article about this today and this sounds like a major white trash family. Mom is having affairs…check. They give the kid a gun instead of taking him to counseling…check. I hope the dad gets nailed too and this whole mess serves as a cautionary tale to other ammosexual parents out there.
Gretchen
Good. He didn’t just find the gun negligently laying around and use it. She bought it and gave it to him, and when the school called her in and told her he was behaving oddly, didn’t want to take him home and didn’t check on the location of the gun. She had multiple chances to make better decisions, and wanted to get home to her boyfriend.
pat
Does anyone else wonder what will happen in future years as all those kids who were born because the mother was denied an abortion (especially in the rape cases, 64,000 as I recall) grow up in possibly unhealthy situations?
Ksmiami
@twbrandt: legal liability and insurance is the way we can conquer our out of control gun mayhem.
eclare
@twbrandt:
And the school didn’t check his backpack.
matt
‘well-regulated’ means ‘unregulated’.
Elizabelle
@BellaPea: Do they have other children?
The family that gets incarcerated together …. still has more opportunities than the teenagers who were shot down at their school.
eclare
@Ksmiami:
After my dad died, I asked my RWNJ attorney cousin to take his guns and store them. He said “sure I’ll put them with mine in my floor safe.”
I asked, “you have a floor safe?” And he replied very succinctly, “I have a teenage son.”
Geoduck
I actually wouldn’t be surprised if some form of gun safe existed even in colonial days.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Kay,
I see this as a responsibility case. We hear all the time – responsible gun owner. Responsible gun owner.
What does it mean?
Also, the prisons are full of people who were in the same car as the person who did the crime, and wound up getting time themselves. Didn’t shoot anyone. Didn’t have a weapon. But, was just in the car with the person who did. Didn’t have to know that the person actually had a gun when they committed the crime. They’re in jail too.
How can you have a weapon of death in your home, and not be held to that standard?
Rusty
If you listened to the SCOTUS oral arguments for the case about taking guns from those accused of domestic violence, you would be far less sure that the court wouldn’t overturn this case. Alito and Kavanaugh (as far as I can tell from the voices, you only get audio), rambled on at length about how a reasonableness standard for handling weapons was really an infringement of gun rights. Leaving a loaded gun on the coffee table? How dare someone think that unreasonable!?!? You have to be ready to draw and shoot to defend you home on a moments notice. It was really almost that bad. As much as I strongly support this verdict and wish every state had laws about securing weapons and accountability, I am not sure they will stand up to our gun loving, reactionary death cult called the Supreme Court.
Ken
@Rusty: Don’t forget the omnipresent threat of feral hogs.
Chief Oshkosh
@Geoduck: Yeah, they were called “armories” back then.
p.a.
Remember when the gun-humping FUCKS were all for socialized medicine when it was about mental health assistance for disturbed gun-humpers?
ANYTHING to keep their fucking guns.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Ken:
MAGAts or actual hogs?
Miss Bianca
@Betty Cracker: I’m with you. For now, I’m just stunned that this prosecutorial strategy succeeded. Finally. FINALLY. If people start seeing some downsides to extreme gun ubiquity and recklessness, it may wake some of these fuckers up.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
These parents are absolute scum. I hope the father is convicted, too, and that they all rot in prison for a good long time.
Old School
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Actual pigs.
Here’s Sen. Bill Cassidy in 2022.
Ksmiami
@Rusty: then it’s time to seriously destroy this court. Tumbrels are starting to look like an improvement
TriassicSands
Of course they did. They used them to secure their AR-15s, AK-47s, and semi-automatic hand guns. The wealthier individuals kept their RPGs and other anti-tank weapons in their much larger gun safes.
When the SCOTUS radicals delve into history for their fraudulent justifications, they run into and ignore numerous problems. First, they ignore the undeniable fact that the world has changed drastically and trying to cram the modern world into the world of the 18th century and earlier is a ridiculous approach. They can’t possibly make the Constitution and its amendments relevant to today unless they align the intent of the original with all the changes the amendments have made and rule based on the evolution of the country.
Their next problem? Originalism and textualism, both of which are transparently employed or ignored based on the desired outcome. Originalists, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, have an extreme right wing agenda and originalism is just the dishonest tool they use to achieve their socio-political goals, which exist independently of the amended Constitution. Scalia’s shameful Heller decision states outright that he is ignoring the militia reference in the 2nd Amendment. He does admit that reasonable regulations are acceptable, but that part of the opinion has been deep-sixed by the current even more extreme majority.
One of the great flaws in this country is the common belief that life is about rights and devoid of responsibilities when that pleases us. The verdict in this thread’s trial is a recognition that responsibilities exist, as well.
WaterGirl
I don’t see anything about what the sentence / punishment will be for this. Or is this just the verdict and the sentencing will come separately?
twbrandt
@Elizabelle: no, they had just the one son.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: She would not have taken a look into that backpack?!?!?! Not lifted it up just to see that it wasn’t too heavy for dear snookums!?!?!
Edit: Answering your question: A Trump voting MAGA POS.
twbrandt
@WaterGirl: Sentencing is scheduled for April 9.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
Sentencing is in April, I think. She is looking at fifteen years, I don’t know if that is total or per charge to run consecutively. I hope she gets the max. No time to deal with her violent son but time for multiple affairs. Wonderful priorities.
Elizabelle
@twbrandt: And now they can keep track of him more easily.
Amy
Does anyone else care about the child? I keep thinking, he was so badly served by his parents and the school. He was asking for help and being ignored by everyone. And now it looks like he’s going to be thrown in jail for the rest of his life. Do the parents even care? It’s a complete horror show, top to bottom.
Elizabelle
@Amy: I know. Ethan. Horrified by his crime, but then learned what a disturbed kid he was. More sad all around.
eclare
@Amy:
I know, it’s truly sad. And probably more common than we realize.
The Truffle
@Elizabelle: They bought their child a gun? What made them think this was a good idea?
Disturbed people and guns don’t mix.
Paul in KY
@Amy: I just don’t have much sympathy for him. He could have run away from those craptoids, waited it out for 2 or 3 years and then left. Shot them, instead of those kids. Shot himself. Any one of about 15 or 20 ‘other’ decisions he could have made, rather than waste innocent lives.
Elizabelle
@The Truffle: We learn that time and again, don’t we?
robtrim
Gun manufacturers and social media platforms have been exempted from liability for the products they create. Making “no one is above the law” a joke.
Zuckerberg can issue a fatuous “apology” to the parents of children ensnared in his carefully corrupted media empire that is as dangerous as the strangers that offer candy to children. Meanwhile, he laughs all the way to the bank.
The “firearms” industry has no liability for the guns in manufactures. Nor does it have any liability for the “accessories” (gun magazines, bump stocks, laser sights, armor-piercing ammunition, and sear pin kits that allow automatic fire) that make firearms especially lethal.
But this dysfunctional woman and her husband will go to prison simply for being incompetent parents. And we shouldn’t forget that nearly 50 percent of all firearm deaths are the result of suicide.
What product in America is unregulated and is so dangerous the society, and its users?
Aardvark Cheeselog
“Failure to obtain mental health treatment” for the kid seems like a cruel jape, to this parent who has actually had to do that.
cain
@Betty Cracker: Probably didn’t regret because if she took her child home, he would have shot her.
wjca
Responsibility?!?!? Oh, the horror!
jonas
@matt: Kind of like “inflammable” really means “flammable,” right?
jonas
@The Truffle: The mother of the Sandy Hook shooter back in 2012 did the same thing. Her son was clearly suffering from emotional and mental problems, so she thought it would help him “work out his issues” if she encouraged him to take up shooting. Oh, he worked them out alright.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
it may wake some of these fuckers up.
I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Elizabelle
This child’s gift was a Sig Sauer.
Yes. It was a handgun favored by law enforcement.
The Truffle
@jonas: There are other ways for these parents to help their troubled kids work through issues. Why guns?
wjca
Because all the other ways are woke. And so cannot be considered.
artem1s
the guns part I agree with. but given the deplorable state of mental health care in this country the other negligent manslaughter charge seems unreasonable.
shouldn’t the state of MI bear some of the blame for his lack of health care? where were the social workers? did the school call the police when the parents refused to take him out of class? was there any health care available for someone of his means? or is punishment for not seeking mental health care going to be reserved for the poor only? for those who get stuck with a court appointed attorney and can’t afford good lawyers? one of the commenters noted they were ‘white trash’. would we be as comfortable if they had been poor POC? or if a same-sex couple who got their kids adequate health care for gender dysphoria was charged with negligence in say FL or TX? what if the parents had hadn’t been charged for the guns at all but only charged with not seeking health care?
yea, too many ignore the signs of mental illness in their loved ones. but how many of them suffer from mental illness themselves? seems pretty obvious to me they all had issues.
locking these poor schmucks up for not getting mental health care won’t move the needle at all to get those who are willfully and sanely negligent about their firearms prosecuted.
Quadrillipede
Seems to me, if you did want the second amendment repealed, condemning an entire generation of schoolkids to (at best) the regular trauma of active shooter drills would be a good motivator…
Elizabelle
@Aardvark Cheeselog: Would you want to share about that?
The Truffle
It sounds like this woman and her husband never wanted to be parents in the first place.
columbusqueen
@artem1s: The simple fact is most parents would a)teach a child that killing other people is bad; and b)not buy them a gun. The Crumbleys deserve conviction for failing completely on both these points. The state of mental health care is not as relevant compared to that.
sab
@Elizabelle: The school officials, not knowimg he was armed, thought he would be better off in school supervised than home alone.
Ruckus
@artem1s:
I was a mental health counselor 50-54 yrs ago, worked in a free walk in clinic. All of us did phone counseling as well as walk in appointments and we would get assigned phone clients for longer term needs. I wonder if this bit of the world – mental health care – works any better now than it did then. Because it really didn’t work all that well then, no matter how hard and well the counselors worked. This country has a standard and that is that we are all citizens, have certain freedoms and some responsibilities, including outside the norm, to take care of ourselves. There are some things a person cannot do for themselves, or at least do competently – they require help. You can’t take out your own appendix and likely 98% of the time you can’t fix a mental health issue without help. It may not require hospitalization and/or medication but it does require feedback and time.
TS
@Jeffro:
(IMO) No guns, the kids will not be dead. Guns are the beginning, end and middle of the issue. What got charged – supplying a gun to a minor.
sab
I really appreciate Kay spelling out the legal standards here. Spouse and I were arguing today about this. I wanted a conviction and he thought that was harsh.
It brought back to us when our oldest was a fucked up drug addled adolescent. Husband’s kid, my stepkid. Kid was mildly scary at that point, but we are not gun people.
My husband jumped through all kinds of hoops and sacrificed a lot for this kid, who is twenty years later a sensible adult, much to our relief and amazement. Husband thought he was protecting the community as much as the kid, but to reiterate, we are not gun people and would have called the cops on a gun.
I don’t think gun people live in the real world. They don’t actually think about these things blowing people away. The hunters of course do, but everyone else thinks of paper targets.
We need to start prosecuting people to make them responsible. If the gun is in your house and available maybe you should be to blame.
BellaPea
@Elizabelle: I don’t think so. It appears the one kid was too much for them to handle.
Paul in KY
@cain: She and he might have been thinking that!
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: A Sig Sauer is a quality firearm.
Paul in KY
@artem1s: The counselor should get some kind of discipline for not checking the backpack. School principal as well. At an absolute minimum.
Paul in KY
@artem1s: I think that the parents were very callous towards their son. I don’t think they were mentally ill. Just giant selfish assholes.
Paul in KY
@The Truffle: Sure looks that way.
Paul in KY
@TS: he might have stabbed a couple before they overpowered him. Certainly nowhere near the number killed/injured though.