Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

At some point, the ability to learn is a factor of character, not IQ.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.

This fight is for everything.

Innocent people don’t delay justice.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

An almost top 10,000 blog!

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Republicans can’t even be trusted with their own money.

Cole is on a roll !

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Excellent Links / Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Concerning the Death of Alexei Navalny

Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Concerning the Death of Alexei Navalny

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Alexey Navalny spent at least a decade standing up to the Kremlin when it seemed impossible. He was jailed and released. He was poisoned, and survived. He was warned to stay away from Russia and didn’t. He was arrested in front of dozens of cameras, with millions of people watching. In prison, he was defiant and consistently funny. For three years, his jailers put him in solitary confinement, cut off his access to and arrested his lawyers, piled on sentence after sentence, sent him all the way across the world’s largest country to serve out his time in the Arctic, and still, when he appeared on video in court, he laughed at his jailers. Year after year, he faced down the might of one of the world’s cruellest states and the vengeance of one of the world’s cruellest men. His promise was that he would outlive them and lead what he called the Beautiful Russia of the Future. On Friday, they killed him. He was forty-seven years old.

Hours after the news of his death broke, his widow, Yulia Navalnaya, addressed the Munich Security Conference. “I don’t know whether to believe the news, the terrible news, which we are only getting from state-controlled sources in Russia,” she said, from the conference’s main stage. “As you all know, for many years we’ve been unable to believe Putin and his government. They always lie. But, if it is true, I want Putin and everyone around him, his friends and his government, to know that they will be held responsible for what they have done to our country, to my family, and to my husband. The day of reckoning will come very soon.”…

Navalny, who was educated as a lawyer, became active in politics in the early two-thousands and emerged as a public figure around 2010. His early politics were ethno-nationalist, at times overtly xenophobic, and libertarian. He advocated for gun rights and a crackdown on migrants. But he found his agenda and his political voice in documenting corruption. He built a movement based on the premise that citizens, even in Russia, could and should exercise control over the way that government money is spent. In the ensuing years, he evolved from an ethno-nationalist to a civic nationalist, from a libertarian to a social democrat. He learned new languages, read incessantly, and incorporated new ideas into his program. He focussed, increasingly, not only on political power but on social welfare. During the past three years, he used the pulpit provided by an endless series of court hearings to air his political views. In a courtroom speech on February 20, 2021, he outlined a vision for a country with a better health-care system and a more equitable distribution of wealth. He proposed changing the slogan of his political movement from “Russia will be free” to “Russia will be happy.” He continued to assert this hopeful agenda, even as he grew more and more gaunt and even as he was forced to appear in court on a video screen, separated from his audience by glass, a grate, and thousands of miles…


Mr. Pierce, at Esquire — “There Was No One Braver Than Alexei Navalny”:

… There was no braver person alive than Navalny, who went back to Russia when he already was the embodiment of resistance to the current regime, which already had tried to kill him once. He was never going to be a Mandela, or a Havel, or a Walesa because he never was going to get out of his Arctic prison alive. Even if he somehow served his full sentence, which was a real long shot even without outside interference, he would’ve been over 70 upon release. Now he has to be a symbol, and he will be a damned good one. Even Republican U.S. Senators like Thom Tillis of North Carolina have noticed.

“Navalny laid down his life fighting for the freedom of the country he loved. Putin is a murderous, paranoid dictator. History will not be kind to those in America who make apologies for Putin and praise Russian autocracy. Nor will history be kind to America’s leaders who stay silent because they fear backlash from online pundits.”

This country invented the architecture in which political courage can be nurtured and encouraged, and yet it seems in criminally short supply these days. Meanwhile, somehow, it lives again in the wilderness at the top of the world.

Reader Interactions

106Comments

  1. 1.

    zhena gogolia

    We just had a very moving “Quaker meeting” with no Quakers in his memory. The young people are very inspiring.

    ETA: Swalwell is so right.

  2. 2.

    zhena gogolia

    Wish I could stay — I have to “go” to a lecture (webinar). Thanks for the thread, sorry I can’t engage right now.

  7. 7.

    Another Scott

    I saw a report somewhere that his body is not expected to be released for 2 weeks.  Some speculate that’s to make any poison or similar item dissipate and be more difficult to detect.

    :-/

    I’m sure it’s also to try to make it more difficult for him to be held up as a martyr, but people have very long memories.

    The officially stated cause of death “sudden death syndrome” sounds laughable.

    Here’s hoping that some good comes of his death, in Russia and elsewhere.

    Peace and comfort to his family and all who loved him.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  10. 10.

    kindness

    When the USSR broke up, the US was part of the talks that convinced the newly independent country to send the nukes it now possessed back to Russia.  The US and other countries said they would protect Ukraine if it gave the nukes back.  I wonder why this is never brought up wrt the war in Ukraine.

  11. 11.

    Sister Golden Bear

    Reposting from the dead thread below….

    Republicans’ Radio Rwanda demonization of trans/non-binary people is having its predictable — and to them, desirable — effect.

    Ryan Walters, Oklahoma’s Superintendent of Schools — same guy who hired Chaya “LibsOfTiktok” Raichik to the state’s Oklahoma Department of Education’s Library Media Advisory Committee — put out a video in June 2023 calling transgender students a threat to the physical safety of other students.

    Earlier this month a nonbinary teenager* was brutally beaten to death in the school bathroom by their classmates, whose identities are being carefully protected. Nex’s head was slammed into the ground over and over and over, their injuries so severe that they couldn’t stand up afterwards. The teacher who finally intervened didn’t even assist Nex to the nurse’s office. Another student had to step in. The school didn’t call an ambulance.

    None of the school teachers or staff reported the assault to the police at the time. One of Nex’s relatives had to call the police from the hospital, and a school resource officer was sent to take a statement from Nex’s parent.

    The hospital sent Nex home despite — ”one of the girls was pretty much repeatedly beating her head across the floor.”

    Nex died the next day

    Local media stories refer to it as an “unexpected death” in their headlines, investigators are not sure if the fight played a role in [their] death.”

    This is the future Republicans want.

    *Nex, the name they went by, had been assigned female at birth and was in the girls bathroom. The linked news story, as well as other local media continue to deadname and misgender them.

  16. 16.

    BellyCat

    To knowingly risk (well…“give” is more accurate here) one’s life for their country knowing it will irreparably harm one’s family is remarkable. Rest in Power Navalny. Strength to his family.

  17. 17.

    Sister Golden Bear

    Also, we’re only six weeks into the year, and there’s now 400+ anti-trans bills being pushed in Republican state legislatures, threatening to surpass the anti-trans panic of 2022 and 2023 in scope.

    This includes:

    • A Utah bill that defines sex in a way that ends legal recognition for trans people in much of the state’s legal code.
    • Iowa has a bill that could require all transgender people who change their birth certificates to have a special gender marker that would out them as trans.
    • In Arizona, Republicans are advancing an anti-trans bill that may not be able to be vetoed, and instead will go onto the November ballot. Voters may decide on forced outing and bathroom bans for youth in November.

    As I’ve said too many times before, they want us eradicated.

  18. 18.

    hrprogressive

    Again, this is what the Fascist Republican Party *wants*.

    This is what they all *want*.

    Here, and Abroad.

    Need people to realize this asafp.

  19. 19.

    Manyakitty

    I finally got around to watching the documentary yesterday. Oof. Hits different than it might have last week.

  20. 20.

    Alison Rose

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    • A Utah bill that defines sex in a way that ends legal recognition for trans people in much of the state’s legal code.

    Not that these people care about nor understand the concept of intersex people, but I wonder how they would fit in with shit like this. Obviously, intersex people are not necessarily trans (though some may end up being so) but like…if they want to define sex so narrowly, where does that leave people whose physical sex is not black and white, and whose assigned gender is based on what the doctor thinks makes sense at birth?

  22. 22.

    RaflW

    The way we know that Sen. Thom Tillis of North Carolina, much less Mike Dense, former Vice Pathetic, are completely full of shit about Putin is that they will do nothing to attempt to shame or silence Trump’s pro-Russia, pro-Putin, anti-NATO word-vomits. Nothing.

  24. 24.

    Geminid

    @Gin & Tonic: It sounds like you think Poland and Finland are afraid of Russia in a way Ukraine is not. I do not believe that is so, or that Ukraine has a monoply on courage.

  25. 25.

    trollhattan

    Sen. Tillis’ statement is as correct as it is unexpected (TBF I know nothing of him). One hopes, as one does when it comes to our Republicans, that it reveals an opening for realism they currently lack in any meaningful amount.

  26. 26.

    RaflW

    @Sister Golden Bear: The GOP wants trans people eradicated — which on its own is completely horrific and must be opposed. But they will not be satisfied. It’s not the end goal, it’s the on ramp to wider assaults on anyone who doesn’t conform to their narrow lane of acceptability.

    I just got back from Kenya, where I heard first hand survivor stories from gay & trans refugees who had to flee Uganda, where LGBT+ (as they use there) people are subject to gov’t death penalties or risk being murdered by their own families or villages for being queer.

    And US evangelical missionaries are very much part of building that deadly homophobic cultural regime, and the attendant community frenzies.

  27. 27.

    trollhattan

    @Geminid: ​
    Finns fear nobody, even as their population is quite small. Tough people.

    Poland is very, very realistic about Russia and its air force would fare better than Ukraine’s has, given their 36 active F-16s in addition to the leftover Soviet crap. Their F35s, however, remain “on order.”

    Air defense is a mix of Soviet, homemade, and a couple US Patriot batteries. The large border w/ Belarus does present a frontier to cross, same as Russia did to drive on Kyiv.

    None of this takes into account the NATO membership of both nations. Russia not “going there.”

  29. 29.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Alison Rose:

    if they want to define sex so narrowly, where does that leave people whose physical sex is not black and white, and whose assigned gender is based on what the doctor thinks makes sense at birth?

    They don’t think about that, any more than they think about how abortion bans will affect the health of women and other pregnant people who have pregnancies gone wrong.

    Intersex people are also going to be legally fucked over as well.

    Also, too many intersex people are still being subjected to non-consensual surgery as infants to “fix” their genitalia.

    Often that involves creating female genitalia in cases where the infants genitals are “ambiguous” because as one surgeon famously put it. it’s a lot easier to create a hole than a pole.

  30. 30.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @RaflW:

    And US evangelical missionaries are very much part of building that deadly homophobic cultural regime, and the attendant community frenzies.

    US evangelicals were also a major group behind the “death to gays” laws. Engaging in gay sex can result in the death penalty or life in prison. Simply being openly gay — or failing to report someone who is — also can result in years-long prison sentences. It’s a preview of what they want to do here.

    It’s also another reason Republicans love Russian, Russia has passed similarly harsh anti-LGBTQ+ laws.

  32. 32.

    Pink Tie

    @Sister Golden Bear: Absolutely tragic. As for the dead-naming and misgendering, I can kind of understand how the grandmother and the best friend’s mom kept using she/her, but that is no excuse whatsoever for the news outlet to use feminine pronouns or fail to use the victim’s chosen name. They need to correct their errors. Off to find the ombudsman’s email address…

  34. 34.

    Brit in Chicago

    @trollhattan: Agreed. I think the fears that Putin will invade Poland or the Czech Republic or anywhere else any time in the near future are quite unrealistic. His armed forces have their hands full (and then some) with Ukraine. Invade Poland and he’s definitely losing—not to mention Article V still exists, and even if a future USA didn’t honor its commitment I think most or all of the other members would. (I hate war and bloodshed, but part of me wishes he’s try it, and get the kind of comprehensive loss that would really change the country for the better.)

  36. 36.

    VFX Lurker

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    Sue Benedict said Dagny was an animal lover – especially with pet Zeus, the cat. [Their] family said Dagny loved to cook and would often make up [their] own recipes. Dagny was also a straight-A student.

    “She was tough, but a great kid,” mother Sue Benedict said at Dagny’s funeral service. “I loved Dagny so much.”

    Horrible and heartbreaking.

  39. 39.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    First, FUCK the Putin-loving Republican party and the clown shoes selling orange Putin sack-sucking rapist they love more than America itself. Fucking sellout traitor party and their pig-ignorant traitor supporters.

    The House Johnson has decided that Ukraine is not worth defending, so Moses Johnson is fine with letting Putin have it all and to have his way with it. As said above, fuck the Republican party.

    RIP Navalny, I hope someone else can step up as they were inspired by you.

  40. 40.

    scav

    “Good” to learn that teaching kids to be murderous mobs has the official OK from the state’s educational and policing infrastructure.  Plus the blessing of their churches.

  41. 41.

    Andrya

    @RaflW:   I am no fan of Mike Pence, but we have to be fair- Pence issued a strongly worded condemnation of Navalny’s death, and made it clear that putin engineered it.  (Link)

    Quote:  “Former Vice President Mike Pence said Friday is no room in the Republican party for “apologists” for President Vladimir Putin after Russian authorities reported the death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny.”

  43. 43.

    Chetan Murthy

    @RaflW: I remember a couple of summers ago, when anti-LGBTQ rhetoric in Florida was really ramping up, VA was coming off the Fleece-Vest Nazi election (ooga-booga, trans girls in the wrong bathroom, bestiality! CRT!  CRT! C.R.T.!) and even Andrew Sullivan [spit] was shocked, shocked, shocked I tellsya, that the anti-trans rhetoric was turning into anti-gay rhetoric.

    He was so butthurt, so outraged, that he, he, HE was put in the same basket as those, those, *those* trans people.

    FTR, I don’t think Sullivan is gay.  I think he’s always, always, always wanted to fuck Margaret Thatcher’s mouldering skeleton.

  44. 44.

    Brachiator

    In which it was as predictable as it is unfathomable. The Death of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most Formidable Opponent

    I am saddened by this death and appalled at Putin’s brazenness in going after and punishing political opponents.

    And that Trump and the GOP see something admirable in Putin is insane.

  46. 46.

    NotMax

    @Andrya

    no room in the Republican party for “apologists” for President Vladimir Putin

    Because they’re already full up and busting at the seams with them.

  48. 48.

    Dan B

    @Sister Golden Bear: I went to an ex gay seminar years ago.  The leader cruised me.  I was in my mid forties!  I’ve never seen so many seriously depressed guys.  I was interviewed on TV afterwards.  They want us gone because our freedom is a threat to their repression.

  50. 50.

    Jinchi

    @RaflW: ​
     The GOP wants trans people eradicated

    I don’t think they want trans people eradicated. They want a scapegoat, an underclass, a group that they can openly treat as pariahs without the rest of society calling them out for their bigotry.

  52. 52.

    Andrya

    @Alison Rose:   I have no idea, but it was unfair and untruthful to say that Pence accepted Navalny’s death without pushback.  We don’t need to sink to the level of the Republicans, always telling lies.

  53. 53.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Andrya: Empty words are meaningless.  He can’t even be bothered to denounce the leaders of his own party who support Putin.

    ETA: by which I mean, either call  them out by name, or resign from the G(r)OP.

  54. 54.

    Jinchi

    @Andrya: “Former Vice President Mike Pence said Friday is no room in the Republican party for “apologists”

    It’s great that Mike Pence supports Ukraine, but I’d be more impressed if he called out the obvious apologists in his party and called them to action.

    Mike Johnson, in particular, should be susceptible to his brand of moral persuasion.

  55. 55.

    Soprano2

    @Another Scott: Maybe they should have put “undiagnosed neuropsychiatric brain disease” like they did with my stepson. I won’t be surprised if they cremated Navalny to prevent any independent autopsy.

  56. 56.

    Geminid

    @Gin & Tonic: You are certainly allowed and I have all respect for Ukraine and its people.

    I am sorry I came at you so hard. I think I got a little revved up in a previous thread.

  57. 57.

    Andrya

    @Chetan Murthy:   My point was that telling lies about political opponents is not ok.  RaflW had said Pence would do “nothing”- repeating the “nothing” for emphasis.

    The way we know that Sen. Thom Tillis of North Carolina, much less Mike Dense, former Vice Pathetic, are completely full of shit about Putin is that they will do nothing to attempt to shame or silence Trump’s pro-Russia, pro-Putin, anti-NATO word-vomits. Nothing.

    This was factually untrue.  It’s fair to say that Pence should have done more, but it’s a lie to say he did nothing.

    ETA:  This also responds to Jinchi #54.

  58. 58.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Andrya: ​
      It was fairly clear from context that they meant that Pence, et al., would do nothing beyond uttering empty phrases.

  60. 60.

    Andrya

    @Omnes Omnibus:  I disagree.  Saying “nothing” twice for emphasis, in my view, means “absolutely nothing” rather than “not enough”.

    In the long run, I think it’s incredibly important that Democrats/lefties be strictly truthful.  The Republicans, who lie all the time, have a fallback position that says “OK, we lie all the time, so does the other side, so there’s no difference and no such thing as objective truth”.   Not only is truth-telling morally right, but the facts are on our side- we benefit from telling the truth.

  61. 61.

    trollhattan

    @Jinchi:

    Pitchbot: Is Mike Johnson more Jesus-y than Mike Pence? These Oklahoma City diner patrons open themselves up to our question.

  62. 62.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Andrya: When a G(r)OPer pol sends his thoughts and prayers to the victims of some mass shooting, does that count as “doing something” ?

  63. 63.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Andrya: Then we disagree.   There should be an assumption of good faith by commenters on this blog. You called out a commenter as a liar.  You didn’t they they were wrong.  You didn’t say they were unclear. Not cool.

  64. 64.

    hueyplong

    @Andrya: It’s difficult to believe that you think anyone will find your argument convincing.  Parsing the word “nothing” when Pence is clearly being mendacious borders on insulting our intelligence, especially with the finger wagging.

  68. 68.

    Andrya

    @Chetan Murthy:  I am simply amazed at this pile-on.  Why isn’t it obvious that lefties should be truthful and accurate, when the facts are on our side, truth-telling is the right thing to do, and our opponents are literally undermining the concept of objective reality for political gain?

    But, I’ll take the bait.  “Thoughts and prayers” after a school shooting, or other mass shooting, are literally nothing, because the senders of “thoughts and prayers” refuse to do anything- anything at all- to restrict access to the most dangerous guns by teenagers and people with obvious, dangerous mental illness.  “Thoughts and prayers” does not encourage even the slightest move towards background checks.

    That is not Mike Pence’s situation.  I agree that his statement was wimpy and inadequate- but he did expend some political capital to indicate that the Trump/Carlson pro-putin line was wrong.  He did provide some cover, albeit not nearly enough, for Republican House members to vote for a discharge petition.  It was very much inadequate, but it was not nothing.

    By the way, I’ve been teaching community college math classes (part-time) for more than 30 years, so I’ve lived with the risk of a mass shooting at my college just as long.  I had one student so scary that my department chair came in on Saturday mornings, when my class met, just to provide backup in case the student had a gun and started shooting.  So, I am not likely to minimize that risk, or to think that “thoughts and prayers” solve the mass shooting problem.

  69. 69.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Andrya: Obviously, we disagree.  I thought I’d point out why I find Pence’s words to be the same as nothing.  They remind me of that Bible verse:

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

    For all that I know Darth Jr. (Liz Cheney) just wanted authoritarianism to arrive more slowly, with her faction in charge, I think she’s actually done something, and done a lot, to fight the Fascists.  She’s been clear in calling out her party, and calling out her party’s traitorous leaders.  She’s not as good as a Dem, but she’s still doing good.  Pence?  He mouths the words, but it’s worth noting that he didn’t used-to, back when he thought he had a chance of being President: back then, he was noticeably more silent.  And he’s still pretty silent these days.  Instead, we get this milquetoast bullshit about Putin.  And that’s it.

    He’s a whited sepulchre.

  70. 70.

    wjca

    @Jinchi: I don’t think they want trans people eradicated. They want a scapegoat, an underclass, a group that they can openly treat as pariahs without the rest of society calling them out for their bigotry.

    Just like they don’t want the border fixed.  Sensing a pattern here….

  71. 71.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Andrya: I read that link (the Hill article).  In it, Pence is quoted thus:

    Pence further urged Congress to “set aside the politics of the moment” and to pass aid to Ukraine and Russia with the “military resources they need to defeat their enemies and ours.”

    That’s it.  That’s it.  He didn’t call out TFG.  And let’s be clear: the reason that the Ukraine supplemental is blocked, is b/c TFG wants it blocked.  If you don’t call that out *directly*, then you’re doing nothing.  Cheney called out “Moses” Johnson by name.  By.  Name.: https://www.rawstory.com/liz-cheney-mike-johnson-2667309186/

    “He has said, and I take him at his word, that he believes that God has told him that he’s called to be Moses, and I think Mike Johnson ought to look at whether or not this is actually that moment,” she continued.

    CNN host Jake Tapper noted that Republicans could oust Johnson if he moved to pass Ukraine funding.

    “He’s going to have to explain to future generations, to his kids, to his grandkids, whether or not he did what was right, whether or not he was a force for good and aided the cause of freedom, or whether he continued down this path of cowardice and doing what Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin want him to do,” Cheney replied.

    You can say that that’s asking too much of Pence.  As I said, we disagree.

  73. 73.

    RaflW

    @Jinchi: Do not underestimate their animus towards queer folk, first and foremost trans people. Yes, it’s scapegoating as well.

    But they did not come along with the larger culture over the past few decades of Will & Grace, same-sex marriage legalization, or the rest of it. They’ve become hot-faced angry as they’ve been, ahem, Left Behind.

  74. 74.

    Manyakitty

    @Chetan Murthy: pretty sure she said she’s voting for Biden, too. That’s the credibility test for me. Like it or not, we’re in a binary situation. If they can’t say that out loud and be proud of their vote for democracy, that can STFU.

  75. 75.

    RaflW

    @Andrya: I think we have a fundamental disagreement on what counts as ‘something’. Putting out a statement is so infinitesimally small a thing that I mark down it’s usefulness & efficacy to near zero.

  76. 76.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Manyakitty:

    That’s the credibility test for me.

    I want that to be the credibility test too.  But I’m willing to accept “I will not vote for TFG”.  What I believe is non-negotiable, is to disavow vocally the traitors leading the G(r)OP, and their policies.  None of this “Congress should do X”; instead, “The GOP leaders Johnson, etc need to get off their asses, stop following Trump, and do X”.

    The time for soft words and faint-hearted pleas for sanity is long gone, long long gone.  Hard words are the minimum acceptable.

  78. 78.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Manyakitty: Like it or not, we’re in a binary situation.

    Without trying to restart the fight form the Gaza thread below, this is exactly the issue in the US right now.  Democracy with all its flaws and messiness or authoritarianism/fascism/Trumpism.

  80. 80.

    Lyrebird

    @Chetan Murthy: Yes Pence is complicit in many things, and YES it that he chose to go from “more silent” to saying something that goes against what his party’s Speaker is doing in any way is something.

    I forget the count, maybe it’s 4 or 7 Republicans, or maybe a few more to cover for Dem protests against the aid bill, needed to put a discharge petition through.  Pence’s statement, Romney’s blather about oh heavens, we can’t let the Dems own security, those will probably carry more weight than any comment of mine would with Republican MoCs and the voters that put them in office.

  83. 83.

    gene108

    @lollipopguild:

    The dumbest thing that putin could do next is attack Poland and I will not be surprised if he does.

    Other than Ukraine, who’s going to stop Putin’s Poland invasion?

    Republicans are in Putin’s corner.

    Germany, France, and the U.K. are not doing nearly as much as they could (same with the USA) to equip Ukraine. Those countries do not seem firmly committed to stopping Russia. Outside of the U.K., I know nothing about the politics of France and Germany, and what’s holding them back.

    From way on the other side of the world, it sees to me that France and Germany are in a state of denial about what Russia may do to NATO allied, if Russia wins in Ukraine.

  84. 84.

    WaterGirl

    PSA: I don’t think I have heard from two of the quilt raffle winners yet.

    3rd place: KRK

    4th place: Maxim

    List of all the winners in this thread.

    We sold 199 raffle tickets, raised over $8,000 for Ukraine, 2 people got the quilts, and 6 people get the quilt blocks.

    Thanks, everybody

    (If you happen to see KRK or Maxin in a thread, please help spread the word.)

  86. 86.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Jinchi:

    I don’t think they want trans people eradicated. They want a scapegoat, an underclass, a group that they can openly treat as pariahs without the rest of society calling them out for their bigotry.

    I agree with the second part of your statement. But…. they’ve also been pretty explicit about wanting to eliminate us from public life. It was literally part of a five-point plan by the Family Research Council a few years ago. It’s part of Project 2025.

    Reactionary influencers have been talking about how “for the good of society… transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely” and that it can’t be considered genocide because trans people aren’t “a legitimate category of being.” UK TERFs, who’ve been working closely with US reactionaries, have talked openly about the need to “reduce” the trans population.

    When people tell you who they are, I for one, believe them.

  87. 87.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Sister Golden Bear: I agree with you, and I think it’s obvious that they do want trans (and LGBTQ people generally) eradicated   Eliminated from public life, driven into whatever closet, and if found in those closets, then killed.  Eliminated from the body politic. Just as they did nearly a hundred years ago to LBGTQ people, Jews, Roma, and on and on.

  88. 88.

    gene108

    @Andrya:

    Why isn’t it obvious that lefties should be truthful and accurate, when the facts are on our side, truth-telling is the right thing to do, and our opponents are literally undermining the concept of objective reality for political gain?

    You answer your question in your next statement:

    But, I’ll take the bait. “Thoughts and prayers” after a school shooting, or other mass shooting, are literally nothing, because the senders of “thoughts and prayers” refuse to do anything- anything at all- to restrict access to the most dangerous guns by teenagers and people with obvious, dangerous mental illness. “Thoughts and prayers” does not encourage even the slightest move towards background checks.

    His statement is the bare minimum any human being with an ounce of humanity would say. Like “thoughts and prayers” is the bare minimum a politician can say expressing sorrow about a shooting.

    That’s what your critics are getting at tonight.

  90. 90.

    wjca

    @Chetan Murthy: Pence further urged Congress to “set aside the politics of the moment” and to pass aid to Ukraine and Russia with the “military resources they need to defeat their enemies and ours.”

    That’s it.  That’s it.  He didn’t call out TFG.  And let’s be clear: the reason that the Ukraine supplemental is blocked, is b/c TFG wants it blocked.  If you don’t call that out *directly*, then you’re doing nothing.

    Of course, it’s hardly inconceivable that the only way to get that Ukraine aid passed is to avoid calling out TIFG explicitly, i.e. by name.  Massively unsatisfactory, but quite possibly good tactics.

    Personally, I think it’s more important to get the aid to Ukraine done than to (correctly) blame Trump for it not happening.  Arguing otherwise ranks right there with the RWNJs blocking the border bill they demanded because of electoral considerations.

  93. 93.

    Chetan Murthy

    @wjca:

    Of course, it’s hardly inconceivable that the only way to get that Ukraine aid passed is to avoid calling out TIFG explicitly, i.e. by name.  Massively unsatisfactory, but quite possibly good tactics.

    @RevRick:

    Pence is completely irrelevant.

    I’m with RevRick, and believe that Pence is irrelevant to getting this done: he’s *done* in MAGA world, and he’s just trying to cling onto whatever relevance (and wingnut welfare, and safety from MAGAt violence) he can.  That’s a much simpler explanation, than some sort of “Pence is a PR/politics wizard who’s trying to wangle a triple-bank-shot to getting the Ukraine supplemental thru the House.”

  94. 94.

    wjca

    @Chetan Murthy: I’m with RevRick, and believe that Pence is irrelevant to getting this done: he’s *done* in MAGA world

    True, he’s irrelevant there, in MAGA world.  But….

    The votes that will get the aid bill thru the House will never come from MAGA world anyway.  They will come from those who are willing to go against TIFG’s wishes, provided they have some kind of plausible deniability.  Requiring them to also denounce Trump for his position means abandoning getting the bill passed.

  95. 95.

    Chetan Murthy

    @wjca: Even if I stipulate you’re right, I *still* don’t think that that’s what’s driving Pence.  Occam’s Razor would argue that the simpler explanation (“he’s trying to stay in MAGA’s good graces as much as he can, b/c he likes the money, and he doesn’t want to hire a personal security detail like R-Money”) is more likely to be correct.

    I don’t think Pence GAF about Ukraine.  Not one damn fuck.

  96. 96.

    Andrya

    @Chetan Murthy:  No, I don’t think it’s asking too much of Pence to do more.  In fact, if I can locate an address (email or snail mail) for Pence, I’m going to contact him and ask him- even beg him- to do more.  Much more!

    Our job isn’t to make ourselves comfy telling each other that our opponents are bad, bad, bad (even though most of them are).  Our job is to keep US aid to Ukraine flowing.  If Ukraine only gets aid when the Democrats have a trifecta- President, House, and Senate- Ukraine is in big trouble.  Our job is to induce the minority of Republicans who get the situation to take the political risk of supporting Ukraine aid.  It isn’t helpful to call their first steps “nothing”.   Much better to tell them (as I hope to tell Mike Pence) “I see you get it, this is urgent, please, please provide additional political cover to your colleagues in the House!”

    Consider what a car salesperson does if you make a lowball offer for a car.  Do they say “that’s nothing, go away”?  No, they start manipulating and finagling to get you to raise your offer.   Let us go and do likewise.

  97. 97.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Andrya:

    Consider what a car salesperson does if you make a lowball offer for a car.

    I worked with salesmen a lot during my time in enterprise I/T.  I stood next to them while they lied to the customer, in the service of making space so I could fix that customer’s problems before they ripped-up the  contract with my employer.  Tough, tense times.  So the salesman and I, we saw eye-to-eye and didn’t lie to each other.  And one thing I knew: a good salesman always knows what the customer’s thinking: it’s their job to know that.

    In your analogy, you (and maybe I) are the salesman and Pence is the customer.  And I just don’t think he’s interested in making a deal here.  I think that he just doesn’t care much at all, and has lots of other things on his mind that he wants.  Ukraine?  Pfft.  Now, sure he said some things that sound like a good start for a negotiation … to a novice.  When the guy walks in (the Mercedes dealership) and says “my wife wants a car, I’ll give you a thousand for this car”, the salesman knows that the guy doesn’t want the car.  Maybe his wife wants one, and he wants to be able to tell his wife he tried.  But he doesn’t want it.

    Pence doesn’t care about Ukraine, not one damn bit.

  98. 98.

    wjca

    @Chetan Murthy: In your analogy, you (and maybe I) are the salesman and Pence is the customer.  And I just don’t think he’s interested in making a deal here.

    I begin to see a part of the issue.  Because I don’t see Pence as the customer.  The few persuadable Republicans in the House are the customers.  Pence is the salesman.  Per your parallel, he may well be lying to the customers (by not putting blame where it belongs: on Trump).  But if it’s in service of getting the job done, I think we live with it,

  99. 99.

    Chetan Murthy

    @wjca:

    Pence is the salesman

    How do you convince a lackluster salesman who has other products in his line, to sell your product harder ?  I don’t know how to do it, other than to get him to see your interest as aligned with his own.  But in this case, his interest is in keeping MAGAts from killing him, and keeping billionaires onside, paying him wingnut welfare.  I don’t see how we can change any of that.

    So again, I just don’t see what relevance he has to this issue at all.

    Now, sure maybe it’d be once to convince the (few) non-MAGAt G(r)OPer Reps to sign onto that discharge petition.  Sure, that’d be great.  But I don’t see how Pence has a role to play in that.  I really don’t.  He’s dead to them: he denied his Jesus thrice before the cock crowed (or however it goes in the BIble) and they ain’t gonna forget it.

  100. 100.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @wjca: Pence is the salesman? Do you really think Pence has any influence with any R member of Congress?  I guess it’s possible, but I doubt it.

    Here on our top 10,000 blog we are talking to ourselves.  I’m open to practical suggestions of how we can help matters.  I don’t think we have any hope of influencing Rs in Congress.

  101. 101.

    wjca

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: Do you really think Pence has any influence with any R member of Congress?  I guess it’s possible, but I doubt it.

    I simply don’t know the whole GOP caucus.  But, while they are intimidated by the MAGAts, that’s not the same as being MAGAts themselves.  A fair number are (very carefully not for attribution) a long way from fans.

    Does Pence have any influence with any of those?  I don’t know (and I submit that nobody here knows either).  But let’s face it, we’re in dire enough straits now that any straw is worth grasping.  In the hope that it will be the one which breaks the MAGA camel’s back on this one.

  102. 102.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @wjca: fair enough.  I certainly don’t know any of these people, just what I read here and there.  I like to think the best of people but with this Congress it’s a challenge.

    Thinking back to the idea of sales, the time-honored way to motivate salesmen is to arrange the compensation structure to reward the behavior you want. It’s not clear to me how to accomplish that in this case.

  103. 103.

    Chetan Murthy

    @wjca:

    But let’s face it, we’re in dire enough straits now that any straw is worth grasping.

    Let’s suppose that you’re right.  So sure, there might be actions we could take, to influence Pence to weigh in more firmly on the side of Ukraine, in his public statements.  So, *sure*, in that case we should all try to influence him in that direction.

    But that doesn’t mean we need to pretend that Pence is actually a good guy.  Yes, he did that one thing (refused to participate in a coup).  Yes, he did that.  But before and after, he’s been pretty awful.  And at least I don’t need to con myself into some delusion that he’s a decent actor.  I mean, I donated the federal maximum to both Cinema *and* Mansion, back in 2018.  I wasn’t under any illusions about Mansion (though Cinema, well, OK, that was a disappointment).  I did it b/c he was a Dem, and we needed more Dem senators.  Period.  What I thought of him didn’t enter into it.

    So here again, even if I believed that Pence could be induced to push G(r)OPer Reps to vote for the Ukraine supplemental, I *still* would be cold-eyed about it.

    I don’t need to believe that people are pure as driven snow, in order to donate to them, or work to get them to vote the way I want.

  104. 104.

    AM in NC

    @RaflW: I keep calling Tillis’s offices and saying “a vote is great, Senator, but until you are loudly, publicly calling out the MAGAs in the House and at Mar A Lago who are all in on Putin and Russia, you are also complicit in this.    Support for Russia against our Ukrainian ally is a REPUBLICAN problem, and until you start addressing this problem, YOU are part of it Sen. Tillis.”

    And I let him know that I will never vote for ANY Republican as long as most of them are Anti-American Putin-supporters.   Drive that wedge!

  105. 105.

    wjca

    @Chetan Murthy: So here again, even if I believed that Pence could be induced to push G(r)OPer Reps to vote for the Ukraine supplemental, I *still* would be cold-eyed about it.

    Not disputing that.  Nor seeing any particular virtue in him; as you note, other than refusing to participate in the coup attempt he has nothing else in his past to recommend him.  And I doubt anything said here will matter to him, since the chances of him reading this are essentially zero.

    Still, I think it’s a mistake to say that there’s no chance he will do something helpful.  A man who would refuse to join a coup attempt, even though he has done nothing else, is already head and shoulders above someone like Johnson.  (Yeah, that’s a damn low bar.  But it’s the bar we have.)  And supporting Ukraine does seem to be where he’s at.

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