What the goddamn fucking HELL?!?
Sorry — just catching up on last night’s Supreme Court fuckery. Looks like we’ve got six Aileen “Loose” Cannons on the court. That’s not good.
Open thread.
ETA — excerpt from analysis by Mark Joseph Stern at Slate:
Even in light of this Supreme Court’s hard-right lean, Wednesday’s order is stunning: a massive gift to Trump that can only be seen as a partisan bid to help him avoid a conviction for his attempt to subvert American democracy. There is no other plausible reason for the justices to sit on his petition for so long, or to schedule arguments so far ahead in the future. Maybe the court could have justified hearing the case very quickly, not because it presents a difficult legal issue (it does not) but because it has clear national importance (and therefore should be ruled on by the highest court). But the court didn’t take that route. Rather, it played this exactly how Trump wanted. Its chosen course of action should set off very loud alarm bells. The court evidently willing to run interference for Trump—who, after all, appointed three members of the conservative majority that is surely behind this delay tactic.
The justices could have used this moment to prove their independence, which might have had the salutary side effect of shoring up their rock-bottom approval ratings. They decided instead to let Trump wield the Supreme Court as a weapon against Jack Smith’s prosecution. In a choice between integrity and cynical partisan loyalty, a majority picked the latter. Wednesday’s move is a harrowing indication that the court will gladly twist the rules to help Trump win reelection and evade accountability. It is a harrowing omen that the Supreme Court cannot be trusted to protect our democracy from Trump’s malignant assault.
God help us if the SCOTUS gets involved in a swing state vote counting matter in the upcoming election. Let’s make sure it’s not close enough to steal.
On The Road – Kristina – Baxley Georgia
OzarkHillbilly
I’m not tooooo worried. They have to be cognizant of the fact that whatever “immunity” they give to trump, applies to Biden.
Trivia Man
@OzarkHillbilly: Ha ha! Of course it doesn’t apply to Biden because… reasons
Baud
Baud! 20XX! welcomes the unaccountability.
Betty Cracker
@OzarkHillbilly: I don’t think even the Fed Soc Six are nutty enough to restore a monarchy, but they’ve helped Trump kick the can down the road.
Citizen Dave
I can totally see a ruling granting immunity to Trump but no other Presidents. At which point we’re in the streets and the revolution is ON.
p.a.
Remember Bush v Gore? and the magic one-off?
Baud
@Citizen Dave:
As long as I don’t have to compromise my values by voting for Biden, I’m there!
Princess
“Does the Constitution of the USA set the president entirely above the law?” is not a question we should need to ask in court. It’s a question we should know the answer to already.
Yarrow
Every time you think it can’ get worse it gets worse.
Danielx
@OzarkHillbilly:
Don’t be too sure. Equity seems to be a foreign concept in those unhallowed halls.
gene108
If this kicks the start of the trial to September that’d be cool. Trump can’t campaign while the trial goes on, he has to be in court, and the public gets all his J6 dirty laundry aired out in public when people are paying attention.
hueyplong
If I had to guess, I’d say it will be “no immunity” but issued too late for any but maybe one federal trial to take place before the election. As with Cannon, the point is the delay, not the grindingly obvious ruling already made by an appellate court so that accepting cert is as obviously inappropriate as it has been in any case, ever.
This (effectively, “let the voters decide” a matter of fundamental constitutional law) is what passes for a compromise among the corrupt six, and no doubt the Clarence Thomas types are pissed and call it a sellout to liberal sensibilities.
ETA This is just a riff on what Princess already said.
Another Scott
WH.gov – Fact sheet on policies to expand affordable housing.
Good, good.
More, please.
Cheers,
Scott.
OzarkHillbilly
@OzarkHillbilly: My bad, I had not considered the timing aspect.
Matt McIrvin
@hueyplong: With a side of SCOTUS’s favorite Catch-22: “if you think it’s wrong to nullify your vote, you should express that at the ballot box!”
NotMax
Were I the NY attorney general what’s the first asset I’d have a sheriff seize and put up for auction?
40 Wall Street? Seven Springs? No, Dolt 45’s plane.
hueyplong
@Matt McIrvin: Or, put another way, “Let some of the voters decide.”
New Deal democrat
I’d even conservative Judge Luttig is shocked that the Supreme Court granted cert, there is real reason to be alarmed.
What is even worse than the delay is the precise question that the Court decided to take up: (paraphrasing here because I can’t find the quote I read yesterday) “whether a President has lifetime immunity for official acts he undertakes under color of law during his term.”
That reads very much like those granting cert want to answer the question “yes.” In essence, it would extend the “qualified immunity” the courts have given to police officers, which has allowed so much execrable conduct, to the Presidency.
Democracy dying in blazing noon sunshine.
ETA: found it: “Whether and if so to what extent does a former president enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office.”
hueyplong
@NotMax: Definitely the plane. Let the pig take a bus to his rallies.
Ken
The golf club where his wife is buried, especially if the new owner can have the coffin exhumed and see what’s really in it.
Lapassionara
Thanks for finding the Slate piece, BC. It sums up my thoughts precisely.
Geminid
I saw a couple of interesting items in this morning’s Politico Playbook. One was about the contest to succeed Mitch McConnell as Republican Senate leader. It won’t be decided until November or December, but the the word is that the “Three Johns”- Cornyn, Thune and Barasso- may not be the only contenders and there is talk of a Trumpier option, possibly Tom Cotton. Texas AG Ken Paxton is already calling fellow Texan John Cornyn MAGA-deficient.
The reporter noted that while the political dynamic is starting to resemble the House Speaker fights, one important difference is the vote will be by secret ballot and behind closed doors.
The other item is that Hakeem Jeffries told an NYT reporter that if Punter Johnson lets Ukraine aid onto the House floor for a vote, some House Democrats would likely support him Johnson on a motion to vacate him.
SFAW
@Danielx:
I think they believe in equity of application. [Meaning: the law(s) get(s) applied equally to citizens/humans.] I just don’t think the Corrupt Six believe non-MAGAts — Dems, primarily, but POC, Jews, certain other groups — are citizens/humans
Tony G
@OzarkHillbilly: In a rational world, yes. But given the fact that the majority of the Supreme Court justices are shameless partisan hacks, I can see them manipulating the wording in such a way that their “ruling” applies ONLY to this particular circumstance.
Kay
I figured the Republican SCOTUS justices would jump in to rescue a powerful Reublican from accountability – it’s all they’re good for.
I think their overreach and arrogance is good for us politically, if anyone wants a very thin silver lining. The Roberts court is really unpopular- people recognize they’re power mad and anti democratic. John Roberts has burned thru all of the credibility his predecessors earned and he hasn’t banked any of his own. Bankrupt.
Baud
@Geminid:
Meaning Dems will vote to keep him as Speaker?
A little bargaining going on?
Baud
@Kay:
Yep
And the Court is already slated to do a lot of bad things this term.
JPL
The right to privacy is next for the lawless court. It might be time for the democratic party to start highlighting the fact that states would be allowed to put cameras everywhere. That might appeal to a few libertarians.
Tony G
@Baud: I will not allow the purity of my vote to be sullied by the imminent threat of fascism!
JPL
@Baud: Maybe Jeffries’ crossed his fingers.
Princess
@New Deal democrat: I agree. I’m not at all sanguine about the results of this case. I think the rightists on the court are building towards an America with unrestrained presidential power which the next Republican president will be able to use to shut down the rest of us. Kavanagh has already signaled he’ll join Alito and Thomas on this.
They won’t care if it applies to Dem presidents because they know they won’t use it.
Tony G
@JPL: Maybe. But my experience with “libertarians” is that, for most of them, their “philosophy” begins and ends with the idea that “taxation is theft”. They pretty much care about accruing and keeping more money, Period.
Baud
@Tony G:
Maybe up to 10% of libertarians are actually principled. But I think you accurately describe the majority.
Kay
What’s most embarrassing for them is Trump literally ordered them to intervene and they did.
Ugh. Just HACKS. Not even a shred of self respect. People who were born to take orders from despots.
Geminid
@Baud: Jeffries is sending some sort of message. He and other Democratic leaders really want to get that aid bill passed and quickly.
And at this point, it doesn’t make that much difference who the Republican Speaker is. I don’t think Jeffries wants the job. He’ll have it anyway next January with a an ample majority, and in the meantime Johnson can be the face of a rotten Republican majority.
Kay
@Tony G:
You’re being surveilled by private security cameras almost everywhere anyway. The state didn’t have to do it or pay for it – private entities did it and the state just demands (and gets) the footage. It’s part of the reason I can’t figure out why police still have such a low clearance rate. It should have gone up when they had everyone on tape – so now.
Baud
@Geminid:
Yeah, I think Johnson may be more repulsive to more potential Dem voters than McCarthy was.
Princess
@Baud: That was the silver lining when they chose him. It puts the worst of the GOPs Christian Fascidm front and centre.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@NotMax: LOL. Oh that’s devilish.
Chris Johnson
Whoa whoa hang on easy there Betty!
First of all it is not established that the SC won’t go ‘lol nope’, or more likely “… … … … lol nope’. Didn’t Jack Smith ask for this? In fact that’s not a question:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/politics/special-counsel-trump-jack-smith/index.html
Yeah, Jack Smith asked for this and they’re doing as he requested, THAT is the unusual part. If the Supreme Court wanted to support Trump here they would decline to take the case, or simply not respond, or any number of other actions that leave Trump’s arguments appealable etc.
The idea that they’re unanimously ready to rubberstamp Trump’s demented immunity arguments during the term of an entirely other President… including the liberal justices, in your ‘six Cannons’ framing and not contradicted by Mark Stern’s Slate piece… I mean come the fuck on. Whoa up there.
Seriously, hold up. Stop. Just because you say it doesn’t mean this is a justified take. Slow your roll.
Hell, even ‘delay automatically helps Trump’ is not a given. From what I can see, the only thing that would help is Trump being able to run for President, without any court cases going on, and drop out of sight so nobody sees what he does and says until after the election. Delay is NOT Donald Trump’s friend, because the man is deteriorating and has every reason to do so. It’s kind of amazing that he’s able to function at all, but ‘function’ doesn’t mean ‘make sense’ for this guy, and there’s only so much a protective media environment (paid by Russia) can do to spin and conceal this.
Blindly insisting this cert automatically helps Trump because any delay will give him so much power he will win an election and become mecha-Hitler is playing along with that same media environment that (apart from being paid by Russia) profits from making you panic and glue yourself to their screen.
Just stop. <3
Princess
This is the model for what the court’s Catholics want in a president:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/waiting-for-our-salazar/
Kay
When Scalia was questioned on Bush v Gore at a college event he was haughty and ungracious as usual – they don’t like being questioned- but he did say something revealing. He rudely said “get over it!” of course but he also said that “most people” wanted the court to intervene in the Gore v Bush race. I don’t know if that’s true – most likely a lie, really, but it shows you that GOP hacks on the court are political – Scalia knew he had to claim some kind of popular legitimacy for his actions handing Bush the presidency.
I’d double up on the political attacks on their legitimacy. Fuck them. They did it to themselves and now it’s fair game.
Suzanne
@Tony G:
That’s not fair.
They also want to smoke legal weed.
But other than those two positions, that’s about it, yeah.
Tony Jay
“Whether and if so to what extent does a former president enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office.”
Oh, that’s easy. If they’re official acts, they must be part of the Presidential power-set, and are therefore legitimate acts of the Executive that can not be infringed on by the judgement of the other branches under the doctrine of Separation of Powers.
And are they official acts? Well, if they’re alleged to be. And who can do the alleging Well, anyone, including the former President.
Does not, of course, apply to sitting Presidents. Or to Democratic Presidents, because Democrats are perpetual killjoys and therefore cannot claim to enjoy anything, up to and including anything presidential.
Cut. Dry. Off on the private jet to Euphoria Island, stat.
Percysowner
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m not so sure. I’ve always thought they would pull a Bush v. Gore and say “in these unique circumstances we find Trump immune. This is a one time thing and this decision can NOT be used in any subsequent case “
Betty Cracker
@Geminid: Rick Scott (R-FL) wanted the job, but his disastrous turn as NRSC chair and ill-fated “rescue” plan probably killed that ambition for the foreseeable future. Good!
Baud
Answer to question I had yesterday
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone 😊😊😊
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Suzanne
@Princess: Reading that piece reminds me that it is some ludicrous linguistic sleight-of-mouth to use the term “integralism” when “Catholic theocracy” would do.
Betty Cracker
@Chris Johnson: What the fuck are you even on about? Go back to looking for Putin in your cornflakes.
Kay
lol. The NYTimes fell for this dope and his lies for 50 years.
catclub
I am seriously concerned about this. The immunity they find just happens to cover ONLY the things he was indicted for.
Nina
Jack Smith is going to have to reveal the name of Unindicted Coconspirator #6 during the Supreme Court hearings, just after Clarence refuses to recuse himself.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Chris Johnson:
Delay absolutely helps Trump. You are wrong about that.
Kay
I just think people are looking for “logic”or “consistency” and it isn’t going to be there. They’ll rule whatever they want. These are the same people who are currently promoting their belief that any fertilized egg is a person while also insisting codifing those beliefs won’t outlaw IVF or kill women. There’s no logic or consistency to any of this. None of it hangs together. It’s sloppy junk. They’ll reverse engineer anything they need to – wrap it all up in duct tape and call it done.
TBone
I got accused of trolling again last evening for voicing fear and concern over this. It was a natural reaction IMO but contrary to my usual chutzpah. Back to chipper and positive outlook today (despite the roiling waters beneath my boat).
Baud
@Kay:
Might makes right.
Baud
@TBone:
You were accused of trolling because you said we had already lost the election.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: Rick Scott won’t even have a vote on the matter once Deborah Mucarsel-Powell sorts him out..
TBone
@Baud: I said “may have” because of the possibility of international ramifications
Kay
@TBone:
You’re fine. No need to apologize or prove your worth. It’s a political website, not a church. You can express anything you want, hopefully without “accusations”. Jesus.
Ironcity
@NotMax: Makes sense, TIFG’s POS airplane is a very portable asset and could disappear to who knows where (wink, wink) at any time. But I wonder if he even owns it. Also any other very portable assets like cash, negotiable financial instruments and similar. Seems like much of TIFG’s assets are tied up in brick & mortar that isn’t going anywhere. What is the value of the Lies Social site that will be merged with the acquisition company and be worth 2 or 3 billion ameros with TIFG owning like 75%? That is what Forbes magazine (always are reliable source/s ) says and maybe it is on paper the instant the acquisition happens but then if a market is made in the stocks will it be $43 a share or $.43 for the share and a piece of gum with a TIFG NFT?
TBone
@Kay: THANK YOU. Sorry for shouting but it’s how I feel. I try to be a tireless cheerleader here most of the time.
Ksmiami
@Tony G: I think a million angry voters should just shut down the Court. Time for massive resistance
Kay
@TBone:
Well, put down the poms poms and give your arms a rest. You don’t have to be anything. John just set this site up because he was a bored and cranky Right winger at the time – we’re not that important in world events :)
catclub
@Ironcity:
Good question. However, the merger may never happen. I think there is a SEC case dealing with it right now.
TBone
@Kay: 💙 do trolls contribute financially? That would not make sense. I was insulted but I’m over it, obvs.
SFAW
@Chris Johnson:
No one I know is saying anything close to that. But what will likely happen is that the judicial process now extends into the more-serious part of the campaign season, and TFG’s lawyers will try for another delay “because the courts will interfere with Dear Leader’s ability to run for the office to which he is entitled.” And some judge (Cannon?) will probably put the trial on hold, etc. etc.
I don’t hyperventilate, but I have heard that exhaling/inhaling into a paper bag helps. You might consider trying that.
Ksmiami
@Kay: I want this court destroyed- reduced, walled off. Mitch lit this fire thru his mechanations and it will take extra judicial methods to undue the damage.
SFAW
@Kay:
Except be an Eeyore. Or say something that the anti-Eeyore crowd misinterprets as Eeyore-ish.
Ksmiami
@TBone: I think this is a hair on fire moment for our nation- you’ve been polite and respectful but worried. Our institutions have failed us since Trump’s first election and are hanging by a thread.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Hear, hear!
SFAW
@Kay:
What???? We’re not?? Where are my nitro pills, or my fainting couch???
Baud
@SFAW:
Everyone gets criticized for everything here. It is what it is.
Kay
It’s bad but it’s essentially just the status quo. We (still) have a far Right, arrogant unaccountable court with lifetime sinecure. That’s been true the whole time. We always had the (admittedly short term) remedy of beating them politically and we still do. The only thing we’ve lost is a whole new chunk of the public will now believe the SCOTUS is illegitimate, but 60% of them believed that day before yesterday already. So we use the tools we have and realize, maybe, that we never had an avenue within the US justice system, it just seemed like we did.
New Deal democrat
@Tony Jay: Bending over backwards to be charitable, I can see the reason for the Supreme Court to hold that inadvertent violations of criminal law by a President are immunized, e.g., the type of violations of classified documents law alleged as to Hillary and Biden.
But that claim is much more germane to the Mar a Lago prosecution than the Washington DC case. The Court could easily have declined review in this case, while reserving the specific question about inadvertent violations.
OzarkHillbilly
@TBone: @Kay: Speaking as a guy who regularly opens his day with a hale and hearty “Blech,” I agree with Kay.
Be honest about what you think and don’t worry about folks who take exception to it. Somebody always will.
Betty Cracker
@Geminid: Scott has spent hundreds of millions of his personal fortune to obtain every office he’s held. IIRC, DMP outraised him last quarter in terms of donors, but he wrote himself another check to cover the difference. Must be a helluva return on that investment!
SFAW
@Baud:
Yes, and …. ?
As tiresome as the actual Eeyores can be, the anti-Eeyores can as well. But, outside of me*, no one goes after the anti-Eeyores the way the anti-Eeyores go after jackals they perceive — correctly or not — as Eeyores.
* It’s been one of my pet peeves, obviously; I don’t want to tar anyone else with the same brush.
Kay
What’s interesting to me (in kind of a horrfied way) is how the CIVIL justice system (money damages) seems to be functioning but the CRIMINAL system is just collapsing as far as holding powerful people accountable. Systems don’t just collapse overnight – they’re internally weak and then they fail. We need to think about why our justice system has so much difficulty holding powerful people responsible criminally while we’re practically the world leader in incarceration and insanely punative sentences for people with no power. Reforming just this corrupt court probably isn’t enough – something stuctural is broken.
Kay
What’s interesting to me (in kind of a horrfied way) is how the CIVIL justice system (money damages) seems to be functioning but the CRIMINAL system is just collapsing as far as holding powerful people accountable. Systems don’t just collapse overnight – they’re internally weak and then they fail. We need to think about why our justice system has so much difficulty holding powerful people responsible criminally while we’re practically the world leader in incarceration and insanely punative sentences for people with no power. Reforming just this corrupt court probably isn’t enough – something stuctural is broken.
Soprano2
@Kay: This is true, so many people have those Ring doorbells now. When I was looking for my lost cat a couple of years ago I went door to door in my neighborhood. I was surprised at how many people had little cameras on their porch. I had a co-worker who served on a federal grand jury for 18 months over 20 years ago. She said those were taken by the police to be a sign that someone was a drug dealer. No way could you conclude that anymore.
PBK
@Kay: Completely agree.
rikyrah
@Another Scott:
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
TBone
@Ksmiami: I appreciate that support. Judge Luttig’s response on live TV was on my dinnertime news hour. I reacted poorly to his initial reaction.
PBK
Deleted dupe.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Don’t forget your clutching pearls.
rikyrah
@Citizen Dave:
Now, THAT explanation would be something to behold 😡😡
TBone
@OzarkHillbilly: olive juice 💚
sab
@Soprano2: My husband has a friend who is a retired cop and he says they love those cameras because they are everywhere now.
OzarkHillbilly
I can answer that question: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Kay
@Soprano2:
We just had a juvenile case – criminal damaging on the town square(!) Anyway- police had about 20 different camera views of the perps just from businesses on the square turning over security footage. They have cameras facing outward. Smile! You’re always on camera.
One funny Ring camera incident was one of our local Democrats. She kept having her Biden sign stolen so she set up a Ring camera and caught the thief. A middle aged neighbor. Humiliating!
One would think their crime resolution rate would go up since they have basically 24/7 video of everyone but it seems to have gone down. Inexplicable.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Thanks for the reminder
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: No problem, I live to serve.
oldgold
What is there to be worried about? A malignant narcissist, seeking to be President, now controls, with corrupt intent, the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court.
Ella in New Mexico
So when they say Presidents are immune for acts done during their tenure that means Joe Biden can:
Reduce the SCOTUS to 5 members removing Alito, Thomas, Kavanaugh and Barrent, and appoint Jackson (younger the better) as Chief Justice
Eliminate all Student Loan Debt
Direct the Defense Department to send a shat ton of military support to Ukraine regardless of the budget and pay for it with the proceeds of an…
Executive Order to cut off all funding to states making abortion and any reproductive healthcare illegal, denying civil rights to LGBTQ humans, or gerry mandering their legislatures to be R dominant…
Let us start a nice little wish list, do some fundraising and offer it as an Amicus Brief on this case
Betty Cracker
@Kay: I had a similar thought about the lack of accountability for wealthy crooks when a MAGA dope I know was whining about Trump’s business fraud case. They’re mad because everybody (i.e., rich cheats) does it but he got prosecuted. They should be mad because everybody does it!
Baud
@SFAW:
I don’t know. I haven’t plotted it out on a spreadsheet, but I see everyone giving as good as their getting. No one is entitled to special victims status. YMMV.
Kay
I love Biden and I love his education department (MUCH better than Obamas) but since Biden has been President the FAFSA app system has been almost impossible to use without calling them and getting them to intervene in some circular dead end their verification system routes one into. This is my last year EVER of filling our a FAFSA and I couldn’t get through it. I called and the recording basically says “wait until March” – WTF?
It doesn’t matter that much for my kid – the only financial aid he gets is thru the school he attends so he’ll get it FAFSA completed or no, but the federal government is insisting I fill this form out (which I’m fine with) so maybe they should figure out why it stopped working two years ago?
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Rich white people have persuaded a lot of not-rich white people to live vicariously through them.
TBone
I have to be a cheerleader here at home when my hubby is yelling “I told you so!” about the possibility of a Rump reelection. Last night he was especially vociferous. He gets very angry about having to pay any attention to all of this, yet he wants to remain informed and vigilant as do we all.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
In Trump’s case it actually works pretty well because all he cares about is money and his big phony reputation as a businessman, but it’s disturbing, right? That the only thing we’re willing to do with powerful/wealthy people is basically levy fines? They’re immune from criminal accountability. Fucked up.
Ksmiami
@TBone: as one of the most hated commenters here, I’m proud of my anti fascist stance. When people say I’m over the top, well they’re wrong. Fascist movements are never defeated peaceably.
TBone
@Kay: 👍
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@OzarkHillbilly:
And hand-wringing and garment-rendering.
Soprano2
@Kay: I think they’re egotistical enough that they want to be the final decider of this issue. Plus some of them want to help TFG delay the trial. I’m not going to panic because there’s nothing I can do about it, but honestly I wish they had stayed out of it and let the lower court ruling stand.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Betty Cracker: That’s when I pull out my Mom Hat and say, “Your kid breaks a rule. When you go to punish them, they say ‘But Timmy up the street did it too!’ Do you then say, ‘Oh, OK then?’ No you do not. You say ‘I’m not talking about Timmy right now. I’m talking about you.”
TBone
@Ksmiami: you got that right. I hope violence NEVER becomes necessary. But if it is, I have planned ahead. I am a former pacifist and I took that seriously for almost my entire adult life. But now, I won’t lay down and let violence happen unchecked.
OzarkHillbilly
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Definitely. That being said I have to go change into my rending garments.
Another Scott
(Via links at SCOTUSBlog.com,) I looked at Jack’s 40 page .pdf filing:
Here’s what the 1 page, unsigned, SCOTUS release yesterday said:
IANAL and cannot immediately see whether it’s good or bad that they want to answer a (slightly?) different question than Jack posed.
It’s probably good that the SCOTUS is finally addressing this question, rather than letting it fester for even more appeals and delays along the process. Yes, it would be better if they address it faster, but there’s still (barely) enough time to get a result before the election on this case (if the schedule holds – and there’s never a guarantee there).
We’ll see.
Cheers,
Scott.
Soprano2
@SFAW: I don’t think Chutkan will buy that excuse at all. Cannon, OTOH, will definitely give him a break if she’s still on the case.
At the end of the day we have to beat TFG at the ballot box, because even if the trials happen if he wins the election he’ll shut down anything federal that isn’t resolved and pardon himself for the rest.
Baud
@Soprano2:
Yeah, even if the trials happenes on our schedule and he was found guilty, the appeals would still take years.
TBone
@Another Scott: it’s bad. Overreach. Framing of question faulty.
Soprano2
@Kay: I agree that their solve rate should go up when they can get so much video.
At the bar we have cameras facing the parking lot and the front door as well as all over inside. There are several reasons for them – resolving disputes, proving liability in case of a lawsuit, having a record of what is happening in a place where some people are drunk, and theft. We proved that a bartender stole money once with footage from our cameras. The ones we have now can zoom in and out. It’s kind of creepy but necessary.
Another Scott
@TBone: Dunno.
If it were just a yes/no question on “absolute immunity” then that’s easy. But opens up further appeals. “Ok, no ‘absolute immunity’, but we have ‘super-duper immunity’ because 11th century Welsh law says that …”
:-/
I’m not sanguine that there’s chances for bad results (some sort of carve-out for ‘sincerely held religious beliefs’ or something similar to preserve some ‘unitary executive’ mumbo-jumbo). :-/ I think we shouldn’t get too far out over out skis though.
Cheers,
Scott.
topclimber
It takes four judges to grant cert and five a stay.
With a stay, the appeal process returns to the full district court. This would further delay the process vs. the Supremes taking cert now. That’s probably why it was Smith’s fallback position.
This indicates to me that Trump has four judges in the bag, not five. Sometime in May, he loses his appeal 5-4. (Remember you saw it here folks, but only if I am right).
Which is all anti-Eyeore to the max, but won’t mean diddly if we don’t win the election. It could mean a lot in helping us win that election, assuming the trial actually begins.
narya
I think this rests, in part, on whether the acts cited in the indictment are within the “outer perimeter” of the job; even Marcy Wheeler has noted that some of the things the SCROTUS’s request identifies are not fully briefed by Jack in any of the filings. I mean, yeah, it’s all bullshit, and, yeah, Thomas is a corrupt fuckwad, and, yeah, we have to continue our various electoral efforts up and down the ballot, in every state. Okay, let’s take a page out of Ben Wickler’s book and go ahead and do that last thing. I suspect that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg that is the J6 case. Here’s another thought: if SCROTUS really immunizes TIFG, there are, as someone noted, six heretofore-unindicted co-conspirators. What’s to stop Jack from going and indicting them?
TBH, I’m a bit depressed by it, too, but I don’t have the energy to wallow or shriek; all I can do is commit to writing postcards. Lawrence O’Donnell was also talking Maddow and Hayes off the ledge last night, too, so . . . let’s go Brandon! and let’s keep plugging along, like the Wisconsin dems.
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: FWIW, I find the carping between the factions tiresome as hell. IMO, it has knocked a lot of the freewheeling fun out of this blog. But I don’t know if there’s a solution other than wait for it to burn itself out.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
When has there ever not been back and forth disputes among people here?
Politics is probably less fun because of the current situation, but I don’t remember a time when people didn’t fight.
trnc
What action do you imagine Biden would take that he alone can carry out without needing another person to take a physical action? Whatever the SC decides, it will only apply to a president or ex-president.
Also, they’re unlikely to say presidents can commit murders. They’re more likely to declare DT’s actions as within the power of the president, which neatly lets him off the hook for something that Biden will never do.
narya
@Betty Cracker: @Baud: I don’t usually pie people, but I do just skip right over some comments/commenters when those things break out. I like this place a lot, and I know everyone’s just older and more worn out, and on edge; it’s easier for me to just skip that stuff. Love you both . . .
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I’m not complaining about ongoing disputes — that’s half the fun of it, or used to be. It’s the rigidity and totalizing bullshit. Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be less room for honest disagreement, more sticking people in boxes (troll! Russian influence op!), etc. YMMV.
trnc
@Kay: I’ll say up front I’m feeling a bit Eeyorish, but the question is whether voters’ dislike for the SC will translate to more popularity for democrats in general or Biden in particular. Congress has been doing mostly unpopular things when controlled by republicans for a couple of decades, but they continue to sometimes gain the majority because a lot of voters don’t understand how congress works.
How often do you hear an MSM report on a SC ruling that mentions the makeup of the court?
Elizabelle
This looks like a good day to stay off the internets.
artem1s
@Chris Johnson:
Exactly. The important thing for me has always been that this not turn into a one-off kangaroo court so the masses who hate TIFG and MAGAts can get their vengeance fix. I want this shit settled so future assholes don’t try it again. There is more than Dump’s future on the line here. Everyone who was on the phone with him on 1/6 is worried about their immunity too. If he was acting in an official capacity, so they could claim as well (I was just following Hair Fuhrer’s orders man!) . Not settling it could be more harmful to the DC and GA cases than pushing the question down the road when it becomes a EC issue. I’m betting Smith is smart enough to point out that immunity won’t just be about the Presidential acts while in office but also about who he may or may not pardon – can the President pardon himself and others for past and future acts, including insurrection.
Don’t worry though – Smith is a superhero until he’s not and then we can go back to blaming everything on Merrick Garland.
trnc
That strikes me more as Schumer’s style than Jeffries’.
laura
I’m getting the 404 when trying to read or see comments on the post above.
hueyplong
@Chris Johnson: Your best argument is that the delay isn’t going to be good enough for him. The rest isn’t much. You’re being disingenuous about Smith’s request to treat it as a request for cert. That was so they could do the obvious, deny cert, and end the delays. And Smith did this in December.
Acting like Smith invited this particular result, in the context of the Supreme Court demonstrating more than one layer of bad faith, is just intellectually dishonest.
There is more than one person here who could “slow his roll.”
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: If nothing else, Scott is investing in status and relevance. Now he’s a lean, mean powerbroker. If he loses in November, he’ll just be another skinny, rich, retired white guy.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: If it makes you feel any better, I’ve started just walking away from a lot of threads.
hueyplong
@artem1s: You’re not accounting for why the Supreme Court declined to take it up on cert in December.
trnc
Half baked idea alert. One thing that might help alleviate an SC gift to DT in the form of immunity would be to start conferring guilt by association. IOW, regardless of explicit presidential immunity, he ordered people around him to do a lot of illegal things for which they are being successfully prosecuted.
hueyplong
Now that I see more posts, let me say that I’m still confident that Trump will lose and that the ongoing NY judgment collection/appeal process will end up very poorly for him.
What I’m reacting strongly to is any perceived notion that the current Supreme Court is legitimate. They’ll (probably) make the correct ruling but they are telegraphing that they’ll do so in the manner that best (and improperly) assists Trump.
Geminid
@TBone: There have been “Fighting Quakers” before. My county is named after Nathaniel Greene, the Quaker blacksmith who became George Washington’s best general.
During the Civil War, Confederate partisan leader John Mosby had to fight the Loudon Rangers, a cavalry unit recruited from Loudon County Quakers.
trnc
@artem1s: If the SC intends to give DT immunity, it doesn’t matter how good Smith is. I hope you’re not actually inclined to start slagging Smith based on how the court rules.
TBone
Here’s a comment from the hoi polloi (not me!):
“When Trump calls this iteration of the Supreme Court “my court” he means it. And so do they. There will be at least 4 votes to grant him Immunity and Roberts will go along. Trump will also lose the election and the Supreme Court will install him with 5 votes, just like they put Bush in. This scam has been decades in the making and all the votes the Dems can muster won’t help. The nation is gambling on me being wrong.”
I say fuck that guy (but I’m not a gambler).
SFAW
@Baud:
It’s not the back-and-forth that gets me; I agree it’s not problematic. It’s the knowledge/expectation that certain kinds of comments — other than trolling — will result in pile-on from certain commenters, which ends up detracting from the discussion. [Not just talking about the Eeyore/anti-Eeyore thing, but as I said, that’s my pet peeve.]
But as I am an avowed asshole, feel free to ignore. Most people do (if they’re smart).
trnc
@Chris Johnson: Biden gets pummeled for his age with the barest indication that it’s slowing him down. DT has been pretty demented for years, making deterioration somewhat more difficult to detect, especially for anyone who is inclined to not see it. He will have to be literally falling down every other time he tries to move and literally unable to form words before the media and magas start to question his ability to hold office.
Paul in KY
@Ella in New Mexico: So long as he isn’t convicted via impeachment by the US Senate.
Baud
@SFAW:
Once again, that doesn’t seem like a new thing to me, or particularly one sided.
ETA: Maybe in comparison to a place like LGM, it appears one-sided. Can’t say for sure.
Paul in KY
@Another Scott: If you were a Welsh Chieftain back in the 11th Century…boy oh boy could you get away with just about anything! Those were the days…Before that jerk Edward I ruined it all…
trnc
Keep in mind that BJ’s commenting system doesn’t show responses per se. If you want to see who has responded to any given comment, you have to do a search on a word or phrase from the original comment, and that obviously only works if a quote is included. I used to do that, but I’ve given up, so I’m likely to reply to something that someone else already has. It only takes a few to look like piling on.
If you’re in the thread from the jump, you might be able to more or less see responses in real time, but that falls apart pretty quickly as soon as you comment in a fast moving thread.
VOR
It’s plausible deniability. They give TFG the delay he really wants but get to piously claim they didn’t rule in his favor.
SFAW
@Baud:
Yes, it’s been going on at least since 2016 (Bernie/anti-Bernie). Probably happened before that, but if so, I noticed it less. But after a long-enough time of seeing it, I guess I get triggered more easily than I used to.
Elizabelle
@TBone: Why would you repeat that? I am serious. You can say “fuck that guy,” but why did you just amplify his words?
Do you think Roberts would be a fifth vote on immunity? Really? He’s bad, but I do not see that happening.
Do you want to trawl for any other demoralizing crap to put up here? Have at it.
It’s a beautiful clear and sunny day out there, after rain all day yesterday, and this thread reeks of misery and desperation, not to mention lack of agency. Enough.
SFAW
@trnc:
Fixed. The only way MAGAts would “question” him would be if he actually did something that helped Dem/libs/Blacks usw. , or talked about them in glowing terms (other as part of a “they love me more than anyone else in the world, including their families.”
Glidwrith
@Kay: We’re having serious issues as well with FAFSA. I have both kids hitting college at the same time and the financial situation is ugh.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: Mr. Mosby ended up working in customs in New York City. Probably should have been executed, IMO. He did seem to have a change in heart later in his life.
TBone
@Elizabelle: I’m interested in what other’s opinions are, and don’t limit myself to this website. Maybe other people here are also interested in what’s going on in the wider world as well.
Elizabelle
@TBone: Right. Because the rest of us are so provincial.
Carry on.
topclimber
@Geminid: Big Greene fan here. He might not have never technically won any of his battles in the Southern theater, but his brutal draws were the reason Cornwallis had to run to Yorktown for supplies and an eventual surrender.
They called him “savior of the South” back when all Americans thought that a good thing.
Mike in NC
We should have known this court was dead set against us when they surrounded the building with extra fences and barbed wire and stationed snipers on the roof. All to serve their master, Fat Bastard.
topclimber
@topclimber: If you give him credit for the ass whupping his subordinate Daniel Morgan gave to Redcoats and Loyalists at Cowpens, he did indeed have a major victory.
SFAW
@TBone:
Not sure I understand. “The wider world”? What’s that?
Geminid
@Paul in KY: Mosby made it out to California in the 1890s and spent some visiting with the son of a fellow officer who was killed in the last year of the war. The colleague was Colonel* George Patton, and his grandson was very impressed by the “Gray Ghost.”
* The first Colonel George Patton led Confederate troops at several Shenandoah Valley battles including the Battle of Newmarket. When Patton’s luck ran out he was buried as a General through posthumous promotion. George Patton’s grandson and namesake won fame commanding American troops in North Africa, Sicily and France.
wenchacha
@Kay: I saw that you will be in San Francisco soon, and wanted to share with you (and others who are in the area) : https://www.harumosato.com/we-used-to-be-held-2021
Harumo Sato, the artist, is my daughter-in-law. She has several public pieces in the Bay area. She painted thus particular mural in the summer of 2021, when her baby son was 8 months old.
I majored in Art, a billion years ago, and remain in awe of her knowledge, ability, and absolute tenacity as a woman artist.
I loved the six weeks I spent with the family in San Francisco. Have a marvelous time!
dnfree
@TBone: There are some people here who are reactive about deciding other people are trolls. I comment infrequently but I’ve been around for years. Nonetheless, if I express an opinion that isn’t popular, I have been called a troll, and some people claim I’m new and my nym has never before appeared.
dnfree
@Baud: I don’t mind the back and forth at all, but at times someone just gets jumped on and called a troll just for expressing a different opinion.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: There were alot worse CSAers than him (Mosby). My dad served in Patton’s 3rd in WW II
Paul in KY
@wenchacha: Very talented!
Geminid
@Paul in KY: The 3rd Army:
“Touring France by tank.”
Another Scott
@TBone: But if the SCOTUS were going to do that, why didn’t they do so on January 6-7, 2021 when he had so much power?
“Major questions about the electoral slates in several states, stop the count, etc., etc….”
Nope, the SCOTUS isn’t going to do that.
Especially when we beat TIFG and his minions in the election.
Cheers,
Scott.
Manyakitty
@Baud: that was definitely their best trick.
TBone
@Geminid: one of the attorneys I used to work for is a fighting Quaker. She obtained a big settlement for Black employee(s) who was discriminated and retaliated against in a pretty big case. Ms. DeMis represented lead plaintiffs in a class action against the Wet Seal clothing retailer, Cogdell v. Wet Seal, news report here. Plus, the movie ‘Friendly Persuasion’ is one of my all time favorites.
TBone
@dnfree: it sucks to be us sometimes. Getting upset by a comment and taking it personally is a fool’s game. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if it differs from the popular consensus, which might not be really popular except inside a bubble.
Chris Johnson
@TBone: There are days where I’m grateful I get caught up in work and don’t see the thread again for like six hours. It’s nearly always best to just not get drawn in. Old folk used to say ‘no good will come of this!’ and that can be really true of political blogs whenever something wild has just happened.
Nothing has changed my take, except for seeing that people are SO upset that if I had a do-over, I’d just think it and not say it. Civilization is for making it safe for people NOT to be 100% wise, smart and levelheaded at all times.
It’d be pretty weird if I held a grudge about that considering that I used to post under a nym that had EVERYBODY super mad. I got over it :)