Such welcome news!
According to the live blog on the Times of Israel: the US military will build a temporary pier off Gaza coast that will allow for maritime delivery of aid!
President Biden is the living embodiment of what Nancy Pelosi said in this clip about passing health care reform in 2010. The whole clip is only 1.5 minutes, but the money quote starts one minute in at 1:05.
Cutting to the chase. Biden Administration:
We’re not waiting on the Israelis. This is a moment for American leadership, and we are building a coalition of countries to address this urgent need.
.
US President Joe Biden will announce in his State of the Union address tonight that he has directed the US military to embark on an emergency mission to establish a temporary pier off the coast of Gaza that will allow for the direct delivery of humanitarian assistance from the Mediterranean Sea, senior administration officials tell reporters on a briefing call.
The idea for a marine humanitarian corridor into Gaza has been floated for years, but never got off the ground due to Israeli reticence and concerns that the existing Gaza City fishing port isn’t equipped for docking large ships. The US made a renewed push for the corridor establishment following last week’s deadly mass-casualty incident where dozens of Palestinians were killed trying to collect aid in northern Gaza.
Believing that the best way to ensure civilians receive aid is by flooding the strip with assistance by land, air and sea, the US has airdropped food over Gaza three times since Saturday, and will over the coming weeks begin work to establish a causeway facility off the coast of Gaza that will be able to receive large ships carrying hundreds of truckloads of food, water, medicine and temporary shelters each day, according to the administration officials.
The US is coordinating with Israel to ensure its security concerns are met and with the UN and humanitarian organizations on the ground in order to ensure that the aid is properly distributed.
Initial shipments will arrive to the port via Cyprus’s Larnaca Port, where they will ostensibly undergo security inspections.
It will take “a number of weeks” to get the temporary pier built and running, one of the officials briefing reporters said, adding that the US hopes that the port will turn into “a commercially operated facility over time.”
The officials clarified that the project will not require US boots on the ground in Gaza. Instead, US military personnel will be present on vessels offshore while the pier is being built.
“We’re not waiting on the Israelis. This is a moment for American leadership, and we are building a coalition of countries to address this urgent need,” one of the senior officials says.
I wrote this yesterday but held it because of the state of the union. I still think this is worth front-paging. Do take a minute to watch Nancy Pelosi!
Open thread.
OzarkHillbilly
What’s the over/under on days before Bibi orders it bombed?
WaterGirl
@OzarkHillbilly: I think you meant to ask about the “accidental” bombing of the soon-to-be pier?
trollhattan
There’s precedent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulberry_harbour
A very tricky needle to thread, and I hope we’re not asking “mother, may I?” to Bibi beforehand.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: I read that Bibi is not happy about this.
Bill K
Gaza City does have one small port. What’s wrong with using that? Also, have the Israelis prevented shipping from going to Gaza? Is this part of their ‘Warsaw ghetto’ philosophy with the Palestinians?
OzarkHillbilly
@WaterGirl: Ach…. Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Thanx for the correction.
OzarkHillbilly
@Bill K: Their existing port is not suitable for “larger” ships. “Larger” in quotes because I don’t know what they mean when they say that.
skerry
@WaterGirl: Just like Israel did to the USS Liberty
trollhattan
@Bill K: @OzarkHillbilly:
Reasonable to assume whatever facilities they had have been bombed to smithereens?
Plus, US Navy personnel coming ashore would seem like a very bad not good idea. The general belief across the region is that Israel is America’s puppet and Bibi’s crimes are actually ours.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: Israeli government spokesmen are scrambling on this one, and explaining that they’ve been working with us on the project all along!
Journalist Noga Tarnopolsky knows better, and she reposted someone’s photo of an Israeli and a US flag flying side by side in the town of Caesarea. She commented:
Caesarea is now an upscale town on the western shore of Lake Kinneret, also known as the Sea of Galilee.
Baud
Anyone else getting a clip of Nancy Pelosi talking about health care rather than Joe Biden?
Timill
@OzarkHillbilly: It appears to be an anchorage for fishing vessels per wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Gaza
No deep water, no shelter.
WaterGirl
@skerry: Total accident!
WaterGirl
@Geminid:
LOL. snort!
trollhattan
@WaterGirl:
I like remembering during these events, that time Bibi came to congress invited by Republicans and not President Obama, as protocol dictates.Huge snub. Joe Biden was his VP.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Not if they read the post. :-)
note: my mom always said they wouldn’t tease you if they didn’t like you.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: If I had my way, we would have a rotating tag that says Fuck Bibi.
NotMax
Putting pier pressure into action.
Geminid
@Bill K: Israel has prevented shipping from going directly to Gaza for a decade at least. Everything that goes to the Gaza Strip has come in through a few crossings on the border with Israel and the crossing at Rafah, on the Egyptian border.
A lot of material has also entered underneath the Egyptian border, smuggled through numerous tunnels. That’s how Hamas, Palestinian Jihad and other militias got many of the weapons with which they fight Israel (although Gaza also has a small arms industry of its own). The Egyptian government has cracked down on the smuggling in recent years by demolishing tunnels it finds or flooding them with seawater.
Egypt has also removed most of the population on their side, so the Egyptian half of Rafah city is somewhat of a ghost town.
OzarkHillbilly
@Timill: Lack of deep water can be a problem. I would guess they plan to anchor of shore and ferry supplies in on the largest boats Gaza waters can accommodate.
Baud
@WaterGirl: I didn’t realize people here read posts before commenting. Seems time-consuming.
...now I try to be amused
@NotMax:
BOO! (I wish I’d thought of it.)
This project is another Berlin Airlift, with the Israelis cast in the role of the Soviets. Not a good look for Israel.
Omnes Omnibus
OT: Trump files his $90 million bond in the Carroll case. (PDF) Let’s see if he can post the next one. BTW he also has $780 million in mortgage balloon payments coming up in the next couple of years.
trollhattan
@WaterGirl: Now THERE’S a fundraiser concept.
Geminid
@OzarkHillbilly: I think the idea is to anchor a floating pier and drive supplies off of landing craft onto the pier and then on to the beach. They’ll stage the supplies in Cyprus first, maybe at one of the British bases there.
japa21
@WaterGirl: Nominated
OzarkHillbilly
@Geminid: I read the Cyprus stop was for inspection purposes. It makes sense to transfer the supplies to more suitable craft there.
Ohio Mom
As someone with no knowledge of military logistics (in spite of Adam’s continual efforts), supplying humanitarian aid via a temporary pier sounds genius.
But what took us so long? Why didn’t we do this sooner?
Another Scott
Here’s Biden’s statement on the Gaza pier from WhiteHouse.gov.
Lots of moving parts. This stuff is complicated.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
You weren’t teased the way I was teased.
Leto
Al Jazeera: US port plan to step up aid delivery to Gaza criticised as ‘distraction’
Jackie
@Omnes Omnibus: Here’s a short blurb from The Hill for those who don’t like PDF.
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4518938-trump-bond-e-jean-carroll-defamation-verdict/
ETA: It doesn’t mention who he suckered to get the cash.
trollhattan
@Leto:
“Please don’t distract me from my current starvation.”
Geminid
Meanwhile, the US is still pressing for a truce and hostage exchange. On the 10am news, CBS radio reported that CIA Director Bill Burns is in Qatar today conferring with its Prime Minister on the problems impeding the truce negotiations. Burns has been Biden’s point man in this matter, while Prime Minister al Thani is a key player as well.
Someone asked about these negotiations yesterday, and I later found this summary by Laura Rozen:
https://diplomatic.substack.com/p/us-presses-for-gaza-truce-amid-reports?r=3tv9q&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&trialRedirect=true
trollhattan
@Baud: During the mall hair era, hair was teased relentlessly.
Kay
This is great. Much better than “the United States can’t do anything” – it isn’t just people who are sympathetic to the civilians who wil hate that, everyone will hate it. “I’m helpless” is just the kiss of death for a US President – probably any leader anywhere, really.
MisterForkbeard
@Omnes Omnibus: Interesting. I wonder who gave him the cash.
Or if this is just coming from the same resources he had for the $100m bond he tried to post for the NY judgment that was actually only $250m short of the actual amount
Geminid
@Geminid: Laura Rozen headed her article with a picture of Israeli Minister Benny Gantz and Vice President Kamala Harris at their Monday White House meeting. The meeting did not directly concern the truce talks but rather more general issues in our two countries’ relations, but Rozen may have posted it because of the body language: Gantz looks serious and respectful, while Harris looks pissed off.
MisterForkbeard
@Kay: Yep. This isn’t going to stop Bibi from murdering a bunch of people, and it won’t stop Hamas from retaliating (and keeping their hostages), but Biden publicly decided to do some good where he could and get it done. Glad to see it.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: Reading this just warms the cockles of my cold, cold heart.
Frankensteinbeck
They just admitted they don’t intend this to be ‘temporary’. This is to help Gaza escape the Israeli blockade. Unless Israel destroys it or really does wipe out the Gaza Palestinian population, I think this action will have vastly more far-reaching consequences than 99% of people realize.
And I’m positive Biden knows that, and has at least good guesses what those consequences will be.
japa21
@Kay: I was wondering what you thought of the part of the SOTU where he addressed the issue of Israel and Gaza.
Kay
@MisterForkbeard:
Fuck them. Sovereignty works both ways. If the United States mission is to provide aid to prevent 1 million people from starving, then the United States should do that, no matter what Israel wants.
The demand was NEVER that Joe Biden “control” Netanyahu and the Israeli government. The demand was Joe Biden go forth with the priorities of the United States, which are not always aligned with Israel.
It is 100% in the US interest that we not allow a million people to starve to death. It’s not a hard call.
wjca
Which confirms, if anyone had doubts, that it’s a good idea.
lowtechcyclist
I think they misspelled ‘sea floor’ but whatevs. This is very welcome news!
kindness
Is this where Bibi fucking over Democratic presidents turns back on him? Yes. Yes it is. About time too.
Kristine
@Frankensteinbeck: A first piece of infrastructure in what will be a new state?
wjca
But is anyone here willing to get that up close and personal with Bibi? I’m guessing most, if not all, of us are a hard No.
Geminid
@OzarkHillbilly: Israel and Cyprus have a good relationship and Cyprus even allows IDF units to train there. Some of the terrain is similar to that of south Lebanon where the IDF may be operating soon.
The British have used their bases there to stage the munitions they’ve supplied to Israel throughout this war. Turkiye’s Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan complained about this a couple days ago at a meeting of the Organization of Islamic Countries. Then a lot of advocates for Palestine ccomplained in turn that Fidan is a hypocrite because Turkiye still allows Azerbaijani oil to transit Turkiye on its way to Israel. Turkiye also exports steel and other goods to Israel, although many Turks are boycotting Israeli products so imports of consumer goods are down.
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
This. Israel is not sovereign over Gaza, and Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government. So the U.S. has room there to act in its interests, and to repeat your last paragraph:
No, it’s not a hard call in the least. I’m very relieved to hear that we are doing this. Things are still a mess over there, and hopefully we can get Israel to agree to a cease-fire soon. But this is a hell of a lot better than nothing.
And fuck Bibi with rusty farm implements.
Anyway
Is this new pier/access needed bcos IDF blocked/slow-walked current aid to civilians in gaza? Not comfortable with the idea of US troops there
Kay
@japa21:
Really glad. I saw this news yesterday and posted it. It was all over “ceasefire social media”.
As I said I think most Americans hate the idea that we’re helpless to pursue our own objectives – that’s a loser for Biden. He can’t tell the public he’s not allowed to provide aid. It just reeks of weakness.
wjca
At least it means she’ll get paid in full and on time, even if he tries to use bankruptcy to avoid/stall on his other judgements.
Baud
Newsweek, via Reddit
wjca
Ah, ha! Playing the ecology card, are they?
WaterGirl
@NotMax:
Your best ever, I think.
Scout211
O/T Trump posts $91.6M bond
WaterGirl
@Baud: I laughed so loud, I scared the cat.
Baud
@wjca:
It’s nice because Newsweek is a right wing rag these days.
trollhattan
@wjca: Sweet mother of god I just watched this Katie Britt…thing.
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1765950647533174805
As an intro to her very existence, it perhaps did not have the intended effect.
Soprano2
@Baud: That’s funny, since they’ve been telling everyone their candidate is running against someone who might as well be a corpse.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Yeah, I thought about that as I was writing it, wondering if that had changed since I was a kid.
I was teased, not bullied. No meanness involved.
trollhattan
@Scout211:
Calculates out as 8,276,000,000 rubles, today.
Warblewarble
Not a good look to allow a million or more people to BE STARVED TO DEATH by US “strongest ally in the region” Is it a better look to continue to supply the means to bury them under rubble?
WaterGirl
@Kay: I don’t think Biden was saying (before) “we can’t do anything” but he was definitely saying “I can’t control what Bibi does”, which I still think is absolute truth.
What Biden is saying now is, basically, “screw what Bibi wants, we’ll go around him.”
Like you, I’m thrilled with this new approach.
WaterGirl
@MisterForkbeard: Dear Donald, just a reminder that you can’t post the same $100 million in two places.
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: for some reason, I am suddenly reminded of the Far Side cartoon where the dog is pointing a gun at a family at the dinner table, with the caption, “Listen, bucko…I’m *done* begging.”
Geminid
@Anyway: I expect this operation will run in such a way so as to minimize the presence of US military personnel in Gaza. The UAE is involved also and they and other nations may provide human resources. The UAE has a capable professional military and they also have fairly good relations with Israel.
Reports are that the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan have agreed on a common strategy for post-war Gaza. The US seems to favor their plan, and it could be the template for the Security Council resolution that will end this war.
Lumpy
It’s outrageous that the US has to do air drops (and build a new pier) because Israeli checkpoints won’t let our humanitarian aid through. When else has this ever happened to the US with a country that’s supposed to be our ally? Besides natural disasters. I’m trying to think of an emergency situation where we had to bypass the blocking actions by a “friendly” government, just to deliver aid on the ground.
Steeplejack
@Anyway:
Biden said last night it will not involve U.S. troops on the ground.
Hoodie
@trollhattan:
Talking points from Katie Britt team on how to praise her rebuttal (which has yet to be delivered): – Calling her “America’s mom” – Comparing her to Reagan – his Berlin speech + Shining City on a Hill – Contrasting her with Biden on age and “relatability”
Looks like she whiffed on all three. Not much “mom” vibe there, Reagan actually knew how to deliver a speech, and a lot of people are old and would more relate to pissed off grandpa Joe than this curated covenant wife talking about problems she’s never encountered.
wjca
I think the message is to Bibi: “OK, I tried working with you [because that’s how Biden rolls]. But since you wouldn’t work with me, you’ve nobody to blame but yourself. Sucks to be you.”
Scout211
@Omnes Omnibus:@Scout211:
I guess I need to work on reading comprehension in the comment section. OO got there first, way before my late arrival.
I got there first for the commenters who read from the most recent comment backward, though. 🙄
eversor
@lowtechcyclist:
We don’t owe Bibi or Hamas shit. Even outside of the left vs right views on Israel the brutal reality is Israel is our client state. Bibi needs to get that through his fucking skull.
That entire region is a giant shit show. And our two “most important allies” are Saudi Arabia and Israel. Neither of which can be remotely trusted and both of which seem to think they are the bigger partner in this whole mess.
The only rational actors in that entire mess of the globe we deal with are the Kurds and the Jordanians. Just lock Bibi and MBS in a room and leave them one knife and tell them only one gets to leave. Then shoot whomever walks out.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: British Foreign Minister David Cameron met with Israeli minister Benny Gantz in London on Wedneday, and afterwards emphasized to reporters that he considered Israel to be the “Occupying Power” in Gaza as a matter of international law. As such, Cameron said, Israel had serious legal obligations to Gaza’s civilians that it was not nearly fulfilling.
rikyrah
He came with receipts about why Black people prefer the Democratic Party. It irritates me that somehow, we’re the only constituency that doesn’t get the credit for knowing what’s in our best interest.
chris evans (@notcapnamerica) posted at 8:50 AM on Fri, Mar 08, 2024:
Certainly, here’s a combined list of 20 actions taken by federal, state, or local governments that have positively impacted black Americans:
1. Civil Rights Act of 1964
2. Voting Rights Act of 1965
3. Fair Housing Act of 1968
4. Affirmative Action Policies
5. The Civil Rights Act of 1991
6. The Affordable Care Act (ACA) of 2010
7. Brown v. Board of Education (1954) – Supreme Court decision desegregating schools
8. Executive Order 9981 (1948) – Desegregation of the U.S. military
9. Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 – Reduced sentencing disparities for drug offenses
10. War on Poverty (1960s) – Introduced various social welfare programs to alleviate poverty, including food stamps and Job Corps
11. Civil Rights Act of 1957 – Established the Civil Rights Commission to investigate violations of civil rights and authorized the U.S. Attorney General to seek injunctions against those denying African Americans the right to vote.
12. Civil Rights Act of 1968 (also known as the Fair Housing Act) – Prohibited discrimination concerning the sale, rental, and financing of housing based on race, religion, national origin, or sex.
13. Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) of 1965 – Provided federal funding to schools with high numbers of students from low-income families, benefiting many black students.
14. Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972 – Strengthened the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission’s ability to enforce anti-discrimination laws.
15. Executive Order 10925 (1961) – Required government contractors to take “affirmative action” to ensure that applicants are treated equally without regard to race, color, religion, or national origin.
16. Executive Order 8802 (1941) – Prohibited racial discrimination in the defense industry during World War II.
17. The Voting Rights Act Amendments of 1970, 1975, and 1982 – Expanded and extended provisions of the original Voting Rights Act of 1965, including provisions to address discriminatory voting practices.
18. Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX) – Prohibited sex-based discrimination in education programs and activities, benefiting many black women and girls.
19. The Civil Rights Act of 1988 – Expanded protections against discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, including protection against discrimination in housing and employment.
https://t.co/h2OBm6C1YX
(https://x.com/notcapnamerica/status/1766114217701130324?t=wtICh37o5j7Oy5hqJK5umQ&s=03)
Harrison Wesley
@wjca: You think they’re slurring him and implying he’s not renewable?
Roberto el oso
@Geminid: “Egypt has also removed most of the population on their side, so the Egyptian half of Rafah city is somewhat of a ghost town.”
Assuming the population on the Egyptian side were Palestinians, where were they removed to? Sent back across the border? Or assimilated into another part of Egypt?
Ksmiami
@rikyrah: electing Obama and Harris :) electing strong black women and men to Congress, Biden making sure Covid aid was delivered to everyone…
WaterGirl
@Anyway: There will not be any troops on the ground. That’s the beauty of the floating pier.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: That’s perfect!
I would pay good money to watch Biden call Bibi “Bucko” to his face.
Even better money for him to say the whole thing: “Listen, Bucko, I’m done begging!”
WaterGirl
@wjca: Okay, you’ve got me there! But I don’t believe that Biden isn’t THINKING exactly what I wrote.
Geminid
@Lumpy: From reports I’ve seen, Israel is finally allowing humanitarian supplies to pass the border, but distribution is still a problem. The IDF cleared large areas in the north of Hamas fighters but left anarchy in their place, particularly in Gaza City. A US official warned over a week ago that Gaza was becoming “Mogadishu.”
One problem is private gangs looting the free supplies and then selling them at black market prices. That’s one reason the US and others now intend to “flood the zone” in hopes food becomes so plentiful it’s not worth hoarding for resale.
wjca
We’d probably be ahead of the game if we ditched both, and switched to the Kurds and the Iranians. (I’ve got no fondness for any theocracy. But given the choices available, I’ll take people who have been civilized for thousands of years over people only a couple of generations from being wandering camel herders. After all, there weren’t any Iranians involved in 9/11.)
topclimber
@WaterGirl: Unless Hamas or a splinter group decides the same para glider and drone tactics they used on 10/7 could do some damage.
Remember, Bibi and Fascists are only one of the sets of assholes we have to deal with.
History note: we are coming up on 70 years since the
last time. FIRST TIME the US used its maritime power in the area. That was when US marines landed in Lebanon because Israel, Britain and France wanted to take the Suez canal from Egypt.Ike no like. So the marines came, Israel and its European allies folded, and the marines went home.
So, since at least 1956 Israel has decided its own foreign policy regardless of what the US wants. We need to keep in mind that our interests are not always the same. So does Bibi.
Ohio Mom
@eversor: I’m filing this under stopped clock and blind squirrel. Your tone might be a little over the top for me but I can’t disagree.
wjca
Given their allergy to science, who knows?
topclimber
Make that the first time, not the last.
Update comment no work.
Another Scott
@topclimber: Lebanon in the 1980s under Reagan, also too.
FP – When Reagan Cut and Run (from 2014).
[eta:] I see your edit in #88, but I’ll leave the link. Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
prostratedragon
@rikyrah:
Thank you, that’s a wonderful list, and all that anyone needs to know about the persistance of neoconfederacy.
wjca
Gotta disagree a bit. I doubt Biden s thoughts were nearly as gentle as what you wrote. 🙂
Geminid
@Roberto el oso: The people on the Egyptian side of the border have been Egyptian citizens throughout the last 100 years. Egypt does not consider them Palestinian and moved them to places further from the border. I think this was a temporary measure so the Egyptian Army could clear out the extensive smuggling network and infrastructure. Pictures of Egyptian Rafah show the many apartment and other buildings intact but empty.
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: So, technically, it’s “Hey, bucko, I’m through begging”, but on the whole, I think I remembered the gist pretty well!
Baud
Just saw this angle of the photo of Biden and MTG.
https://twitter.com/MikeSington/status/1766061135646900538?s=20
WaterGirl
@topclimber: I updated it for you.
topclimber
@Another Scott: Thanks back at you.
WaterGirl
@wjca: I loved that video clip of Biden getting his Irish up at some factory, telling some guy he was
full of shotfull of shit.Love that Joe Biden.
MisterForkbeard
@Kay: Completely agree. He’s doing a good thing here and I’m glad to see him do it.
I see on twitter that the usual suspects (horseshoe left) are screaming that the Air Drops aren’t bad and are simultaneously complaining that this new effort is just a distraction and why can’t get them aid now (conveniently ignoring the airdrops)
I don’t think Biden can win with a lot of those folks. Doesn’t matter what he does. But I’m really glad to see him actually do positive things here and it’s the right call.
mrmoshpotato
@Baud:
Like adding a full year to campaign materials.
The Pale Scot
@WaterGirl:
Remember the USS Liberty. Fuckers, should have responded with strikes on their military airfields then and there
The attacks went on for six fucking hours
Just treat AIPAC in the same way NORAID was treated, that’s reasonable, right?
trollhattan
Early for day-drinking but I could be convinced. Friday!
prostratedragon
@WaterGirl: Thinking about this, I’m suspecting it’s going to keep giving. A big fucking deal!
****
About that other thing, looks like some connected boutique, the Federal Insurance Company (FIC) of the Chubb Group insurers has stepped in with a loan. In short, his ass was saved by that NYS appeals judge allowing him to do business with a NY Department of Finance company.
MisterForkbeard
@Anyway: Funnily enough, the horseshoe left on twitter is busy convincing themselves that this is a backdoor attempt to get US troops on the group to take over.
I think the current theory is either related to oil, setting up military bases, or just screaming “imperialism” over and over again
@Warblewarble: I think there’s a real danger that if we don’t supply them with weapons, Israel will basically lose all restraint and toss even the semblance of control they have now. They’ll also try to call the bluff by expending so much of their arsenal that they’re genuinely vulnerably to all their enemies in the region, and if they’re attacked again you can bet that’s not going to go well for anyone in that scenario – including Biden, who’ll get blamed for it.
Always some nuance with this stuff, and it’s never straightforward.
p.a.
Well it’s something. I guess when x thousands (I’ve seen up to 30k but I’m not sure any info from any source there is accurate) are being shot/bombed to death that gets sternly worded pronouncements, but starvation is a bridge too far so we swoop into action.
Caveatimperator
@MisterForkbeard:
A lot of them aren’t satisfied because they never want to be.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: So awesome.
Geminid
@topclimber: You may be conflating two different wars. The 1956 Suez War was stopped by Eisenhower telling France and the UK to stay out. Then he told Israel to pull out of the Sinai; Israel did and stayed out until the Six Day War in June of 1967.
It was Reagan who sent Marines to Lebanon in the early 1980s, and then withdrew them.
Roberto el oso
@Geminid: thank you!
mrmoshpotato
@Jackie:
Why are you assuming that? Oh. Right. 😁
WaterGirl
@Baud: That’s worth an embed.
WaterGirl
@MisterForkbeard: They aren’t stopping the air drops! This will be in addition.
“The food here is terrible, and the portions are so small.”
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: oops!
WaterGirl
@prostratedragon: Sorry to hear that about Chubb.
MisterForkbeard
@Caveatimperator: Yep. Being angry (at Democrats) is a core part of their identity.
Doesn’t mean they can’t have some valid criticisms. But it also means they’re frequently just nuts.
E.
Am I the only one who thinks that sailing to another country’s shores and building a literal port there to deliver aid to the people that country is murdering is a pretty fucking serious and powerful move? My lefty friends keep dismissing it and to me it’s about the most powerful message we can send without militarily challenging Israel.
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
Well, that explains why Israel is killing so many Gaza civilians, it reduces the number of survivors they have these legal obligations to.
/s, I think
MisterForkbeard
@WaterGirl: Yep. The air drops are necessary but not sufficient, which is why the new dock/shipping plan will be in place.
The people angry at actual progress and fixing things always mystify me. It’s this very weird preference for magic and movie logic where you can fix everything through One Neat Trick and it never actually fucking works in real life.
MisterForkbeard
@E.: Yes. I would agree entirely. People who downplay this are showing their asses, I think.
topclimber
@Geminid: Actually it was 1958 in response to an aftershock to the Suez fiasco that created a government crisis in Lebanon.
Partial credit?
prostratedragon
@Miss Bianca: Cherce!!
JaySinWA
Zombie Biden is scarier than Dark Brandon?
The Pale Scot
IMHO Iran is our natural ally. Even today after 50 yrs of our BS younger urban Iranians are USA positive. That’s why the Israeli lobby has been pushing for an US/Iranian war. Like everywhere else, the Iranian theocratic government gets its support from the rural goobers, as Turkey, USA does etc.
The Pale Scot
@WaterGirl:
As you once said to me, “What’s the fun in that?”
Hob
A friend who’s not really politically active except on environmental issues, but means well and genuinely cares about the suffering in Gaza… but sometimes repeats garbled stuff from the online faux-left… immediately responded to this by sarcastically calling it “a convenient port for food delivery” and suggesting that “such a port could be used to begin bringing in freighters with materials to construct oil drilling platforms.”
I don’t know if this was something circulating in Grayzone-type fringe circles or from Taibbi types or what, but holy shit. It has a little of everything: the immediate need to imagine the real impure motive for any action in the world and react only to that, even if the immediate issue is mass starvation; the vague hand-waving as to who is in charge of the evil plan (is it Israel, somehow unable to break its own blockade or build a dock without US help? is it the US, somehow pursuing its own oil drilling plan in Gaza without Israel’s knowledge? is it just, like, corporations doing stuff?); and of course the total contempt for boring logistical details of how things work (like, if you wanted to start an industrial project in actively hostile territory, then having a dock would not be the issue… or if the plan was to wait till Gaza has been fully reinvaded and crushed, and then start the project, you would just build the fucking dock at that point).
I’m a bit mad at my friend but mostly mad at whoever really came up with this little poison nugget. (I presume that’s what MisterForkbeard @98 was referencing too)
Caveatimperator
@MisterForkbeard:
There was a blog post I read a while back that argued that the big split in recent years among progressives and capital-L Leftists was not so much about ideology or positions, but about what it means when the Overton window moves left.
If mainstream liberals start listening to you and incorporating more of your ideas, that should be a win, right? Well, not everyone in that political bloc sees things that way.
If you are involved in leftist politics because you believe your ideology is a way to fix the world’s problems, this is a huge success. Your ideas are becoming more mainstream and establishment figures are starting to take them seriously, and that means you’re closer to fixing the problems you want to solve.
But if you’re involved in leftist politics because you want to feel special and besieged and persecuted, this is a loss. Your ideas aren’t so special anymore. It’s a type of political hipsterism; going mainstream makes you a sellout, not a success. So you either have to self-sabotage, or become more radical so you can hold onto the feeling of special secret knowledge.
A lot of the people who complain about the Democrats endlessly online, even if they change their views to move left, are in the second category.
Caveatimperator
@Hob: Gaza doesn’t even have any significant amount of oil. Nor does Israel.
It’s as if their entire view of US foreign policy starts and ends with Iraq. And the plan to use Iraqi oil to pay for the war didn’t even work.
A lot of our peacetime foreign policy centers around the need to keep up the oil trade, but it’s not a big motivator for our military policy.
People said the same thing about Ukraine. Ukraine has a little bit of natural gas but not a whole lot. Ironically for the people making this claim, supporting Ukraine cut off Russian sources of oil and gas.
MisterForkbeard
@Caveatimperator: This makes a lot of sense to me intuitively, and I’d love to see some actual science behind it.
But it does describe a number of friends I had in 2016 and 2020, who were generally correct on a lot of issues but went nuts when Biden and Hillary actually gave them what they wanted. Went from being reasonable to being full-on paranoid cynical assholes.
Fake Irishman
@Geminid:
The U.S also deployed Marines to Lebanon in 1958 as an intervention in the country’s civil war (no not that Lebanese civil war, it was the one before that one). If you google search it, a Brookings study will come up.
Fake Irishman
@Caveatimperator:
I think the political consultant Dana Houle — who has run a lot of House campaigns over the years and knows Dearborn really well, having grown up and gone to school there — touched on this recently when he mentioned that he really didn’t understand why some of the Gaza protesters boycotted a meeting with the Secretary of State.
Geminid
@topclimber: I guess so. There’s plenty of history of the region I haven’t learned or have forgotten.
The Suez War was relatively brief but wars often have follow-on effects like that. I used to think of Bush’s Iraq fiasco to be over some years ago. Now thst I’ve paid more attention to the region I see how it has not ended for the nations and people in the region.
And that’s not even considering the opportunity cost of throwing so many resources and political capital down the drain.
Putin might not have invaded Georgia in 2008 or Ukraine in 2014 if the US had not spent so much effort and resources on Iraq. We were war weary and hostile to more foreign entanglements, and Putin knew it.
And in 2002, the Arab League called for negotiations with Israel and for a Two-State resolution of the Palestinian question. This reversed the famous “Three No’s” from their Khartoum meeting in the Fall of 1967: “No to recognizing Israel, No to negotiations, No to peace.” As former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon wrote in a January essay for Haaretz:
George Bush had an opportunity there also, but he chose to blow the region up instead.
prostratedragon
A little more on Chubb Group’s CEO and TFG.
Baud
@Caveatimperator: This makes sense to me.
Miss Bianca
@MisterForkbeard: “Why can’t you take ‘yes’ for an answer?” seems to be a question I’m asking a *lot* of people these days…
cain
@Geminid:
Hamas should lose their leadership over shit like this. They were entrusted to keep law and order – instead, it’s chaos. They imitated this thing and it was so wildly successful that they got hammered. But they apparently are no longer surrounded by allies with the only one being Iran from way over.
I think Egypt and SA will prevent any help from Iran.
The Pale Scot
I like that idea. Install American owned platforms on leases sold by PA, or create a foundation to hold the fees. Then drain the fields as fast as possible leaving Israel with nothing to steal.
Geminid
@Hob: There are natural gas fields off the coast there that Israel and Egypt have started to develop. Turkiye, Lebanon, Cyprus and Lebanon plan on developing theirs, although who exactly owns what is a bone of contention between Turkiye and Greece.
There is almost certainly gas off of Gaza that but it has not been exploited. For now, it is an asset for a future Palestinian state. If the US or Israel wanted to take it though, they certainly wouldn’t need to operate from.Gaza’s seacoast. So I think your friend is concerned about a red herring.
Hob
@Caveatimperator: There’s a different way to arrive at the same result ad the second group without the “hipsterism” factor. You just have to assume that the establishment is consciously and infallibly 100% evil. Therefore if they appear to have adopted some part of your good ideas or moved a little toward your position, they’re not really doing so– they’re faking it and using it to deceive people into liking them, thereby allowing them to keep on destroying all good things.
That belief system is not inherently insane in all cases– there’s always some subset of people in power you can point to who really are like that. Like, if the modern Republican Party came out in favor of unionization, my first impulse wouldn’t be to thank them and decide they’re not all bad, it would be to read the fine print that would inevitably include some strategy for undermining unions. Extending that point of view to cover everyone in government at all times is very stupid, but for some people it is a sincere belief (sometimes rooted in very bad experiences) and not just a cover for wanting to feel special, I think.
Hob
@Geminid: Of course it’s a red herring!!! If my comment seemed to suggest that I thought the idea made sense in some way, I guess I’m an even less clear writer than I knew.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@wjca: @The Pale Scot
Damn right. It was Saudis. Well connected Saudis. Probably not official but the links were there.
Geminid
@cain: Once the IDF ran Hamas out of northern Gaza Hamas was no longer responsible or capable of controlling matters there. As David Cameron emphasized, it’s Israel’s responsibility as the Occupying Power to keep order and they have not.
Geminid
@Hob: Sorry, I did not mean to suggest you bought this theory, just that your friend had.
EarthWindFire
Probably jealousy. They think the “old man” gets better drugs than Trump.
topclimber
@The Pale Scot: It’s a lefty source, but says the Oslo accords of 1995 granted the PA access to oil fields off Gaza. Israel obstructed development, then decided after Hamas took over that Israel had the rights. (Who approved that, you might ask? It looks like the answer is nobody but Israel and oil companies who bid on tracts).
I dunno…maybe lefties of all stripes could join in blasting the oil companies like British Petroleum and Eni that have tried to profit from this underwater land grab.
Geminid
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Bin Laden had plenty of men from various nations that he could have included among the 19 hijackers. He chose an all-Saudi crew because he wanted trouble between the US and Saudi Arabia.
He did use one or two Saudi diplomats to faciltate the project. They were said to low level commercial attachè-types, but they could have been mid-level intelligence agents for all I know.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Geminid: there was also the rapid exit from the U.S. of various Saudis in the immediate aftermath. Again, I doubt it was a deliberate act of war by the Saudi government but they knew or quickly learned.
Hob
My new bold plan for improving discourse: a global moratorium on the use of the words “distract” and “distraction.” Sure it would make it harder to say some types of things that are actually true and relevant, but on the other hand we’d have less of the “Trump is just doing [terrible thing B that is fully consistent with his character and beliefs] to distract us from [terrible thing A that we are still clearly aware of]”… and, less of this (via Al Jazeera):
Gaza port plan a ‘distraction’
Mustafa Barghouti, the secretary general of the Palestinian National Initiative, told Al Jazeera … “It seems to be just another effort to divert attention from the real issue here, which is that 700,000 people are starving in north Gaza now, and Israel is not allowing humanitarian aid to them or the rest of the Gaza Strip”
I mean, I can’t fault Barghouti for wanting to emphasize those points, they really can’t be said often enough. But doing so by claiming that a highly publicized effort to feed starving people is really a distraction from the existence of the starving people is utterly bonkers. And yes I’m sure there are uninformed folks who don’t understand that this end-run is necessary only because Israel has prevented every other approach– but that’s not the fault of the relief effort!!! I don’t know enough about the PNI to know whether this is genuine stupidity, or ideological blindness, or just that you don’t get quoted in the news by just saying the same obvious facts other people are saying so you need a weird spin, but damn.
WaterGirl
@Caveatimperator: Interesting!
Warblewarble
@MisterForkbeard: Restraint and semblance of control is belied by the constantly rising toll of deaths and maiming of women and children, and all the other undeniable acts of wanton destruction. As for the notion that Israel squander its weapons like a petulant child , to show the US “you are not the boss of me” is not something I can believe you take seriously.
WaterGirl
@prostratedragon:
Payback time.
I hate that they let loosened things to allow Trump to deal with businesses in NY – he could have argued the they made it impossible for him to get bond – so I understand why it was the right move, but I still hate it. :-)
...now I try to be amused
@WaterGirl: I take some consolation from the fact that lining up the bonds is taking up most if not all of Trump’s brain bandwidth. It’s getting harder and harder to keep his house of cards from collapsing.
Warblewarble
@Geminid: Israel has a positive interest in disorder that hurts the Palestinian population.
Geminid
@Hob: Mustafa Barghouti may be brother to Marwan Barghouti. Marwan Barghouoti is a prominent figure in Fatah, the military wing of the PLO whose members also include the current leadership of the Palestinian Authority.
In 2002, Marwan Barghouti decided that the Oslo peace process had reached a dead end and helped organize the Second Intifada. The wave of suicide bombings that ensued cost 650 lives. Shin Bet, Israel’s security force, arrested Barghouti and he is now serving three life terms in an Israeli prison.
One of the surprises in the Haaretz piece I quoted at #127 was Ami Ayalon’s call for Barghouti’s release as part of a deal to end this war and restart a peace process. Ayalon believes that Barghouti has the stature and reputation to get Palestinians behind a serious peace process. My guess is that Ayalon also talked to Barghouti in prison, in his capacity as Shin Bet chief. Barghouti may have been captured during Ayalon’s tenure.
Geminid
@Warblewarble: Well, Israeli leaders certainly think keeping Gaza in disorder is in their interest. But the fact is that it’s not, and they are starting to find that out.
Geminid
@Mr. Bemused Senior: If I were a Saudi national and had been in the US on September 11, I would not have stuck around either. Whether the US should have detained some of them is a different matter.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Geminid: fair enough. I’m speculating of course and perhaps harboring a bit of a grudge. I just think back to an interview (way before) of a Saudi intelligence official (this is from memory) describing their “rough neighborhood.” They are not and were not naive.
Geminid
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Yeah, the Saudis might have known something was up, but Bin Laden very clearly intended the attack to undermine the Saudi regime. He had decided that the US-Saudi axis was keeping the Saudi government in power, and believed breaking that axis was neccesary in order to bring about a truly Islamic Arab world.
wjca
TIFG might have had a prayer against Biden. (Well, except for not worshiping anyone to pray to.)
But against Dark Brandon, he is (old and soggy) toast.
Geminid
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Regarding grudges towards the Saudis: everybody has a grudge against the Saudis, and the Saudis have done much to deserve it. But when I look over the last ten years and events since last October, I think they and the other Gulf Arab states have been the most constructive actors.
Israel, the US and the EU nations have been content to manage the Palestinian problem and not try to solve it. The Arab nations have gone ahead and laid some of the groundwork on their own.
And now that the inaction of other nations has proved disastrous, it’s the Arab countries with a realistic strategy for ending the war and getting the larger peace process back on track.
YY_Sima Qian
This is welcome news!
wjca
If there was oil there to drill for, Israel would already have done so. But there isn’t. Try pointing that out.
Hob
@Geminid: Well, I had a basically friendly but extremely frustrating follow-up conversation, and even though he basically changed the subject every single time I came back to “wtf would be the crucial importance of sneakily building a port right now, instead of at whatever future time it’s actually possible to implement an oil project”, we did establish:
1. This is his own deduction rather than something he read on Twitter.
2. He’s somewhat well informed about the political history of the area, especially in regards to the oil industry (which I know his father was involved in).
3. But based on that knowledge, he has come to an lifelong ironclad non-negotiable belief that literally every US action in that part of the world is motivated 100% by oil, regardless of whether it’s a significant amount of oil.
4. Therefore he believes there is never actual humanitarian concern involved in any part of our policy, and any apparent concern is by definition a sham, because if we cared we would stop the war (see 5). In other words there can only be 100% concern or 0%, never anything like “we care about A but we care about B more.”
5. He believes the US has such total leverage based on our financial support that we could instantly end the war at any moment, even though he also says Israel does not really need our financial support but just would prefer to have it.
6. He believes Russia prodded Hamas to start the war to interfere with US interests, but also Biden actually wants the war to continue (just maybe de-escalate a little) because it will increase US influence in the area, by… allowing us to do fake humanitarian efforts and build a port… I think.
Like I said, fairly frustrating. One of those things where as soon as the words scroll off of the top of the chat window, the whole circular thing starts over again. He really was trying to be nice and so was I, but either I am an incredibly unclear writer (very possible) or he has no short-term memory (also very possible).
Hob
@wjca: See previous comment – the presupposition seems to be that any amount of resources at all is sufficient reason for the US to intervene even if it’s in a pointlessly roundabout way. I think he also started making an argument that Israel couldn’t do it at any time in the past for various reasons, but maybe they can in the future if the US will help them do it, but the US did not help them do it before because…….. and at that point the subject changed again.
I don’t think it really matters in this context; the whole idea would make no sense even if you accepted all of the premises about motive, since there was never any attempt to explain why the current lack of a dock was a crucial missing piece that would have to be addressed far in advance under false pretenses, and not just a straightforward consequence of Israel imposing a naval blockade which they are in full control of. The closest he got was to say something like “it’s for the sake of appearances” as if people would just not notice when Israel started actually bringing in freighters full of oil drilling equipment. But that kind of thing is very standard conspiracist thinking that I think a lot of people are prone to on some level— the idea that the bad guys have One Weird Trick for fooling you or distracting you at one point in time, and if they do that, then they’ve won even if they didn’t accomplish anything concrete.
Hob
Btw, I’m not looking for people to just tell me that my friend is stupid… he is certainly saying some stupid things and I’d prefer if he didn’t write misleading social media posts, but I don’t look to him for political insight, his gifts are in other areas, and he’s not a burn-it-all-down type of cynic – he made it clear (to me, not in his post) that he would rather see this relief effort happen than not happen, even if he thinks it’s for corrupt reasons. I was on the fence about mentioning the conversation here because I knew it could come across as just a “can you believe this asshole” rant, but I felt like it did sort of touch on things broader than just one person (and I also wanted a sanity check in case I really was missing some kind of valid point somewhere). Anyway, we agreed to get back to our lives for today – he might or might not want to talk more later although I doubt I’ll have the energy.
Geminid
@Hob: One thing I have gotten out of the debate over this war is that the less people know, the more certain they are in their analysis. That doesn’t neccesarily mean that someone who knows a little might come up with better conclusions than someone who knows a lot, but it certainly lessens the chances.
Americans generally care little about events and people in other nations. We’re kind of interested in Great Britain, France and Germany but our interest drops off pretty fast after that. And a lot of people who might be quite liberal when it comes to immigrants can have plenty of unconscious and conscious racism towards those same people when they are living in their own countries.
There is a concept called “Orientalism” that is applied to Westerners who underrate and undervalue people in the many countries south and east of Europe. I first heard years ago but only recently came to understand that it’s just a nice word for racism.
Geminid
@Hob: You could always find a map of the eastern Mediterranean Sea that shows all the claims to natural gas in the area and send it to your friend. It would show all the overlapping waters claimed by Libya, Egypt, the potential Palestinian state, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Cyprus and Greece. He’ll go crosseyed looking at it.
Ed. He might also conclude that it’s really not that much natural gas at stake. Certainly enough for those states to go after but that’s because they don’t have any and they have to import fossil fuels. I think some Gulf countries wouldn’t even bother recovering it because they have so much and demand may start dropping in a decade or so.
Still, some arbitrators might retire on the money they make sorting all these claims out. I think that they and the diplomats, not the militaries, will be the ones settling these disputes.
Geminid
@Geminid: I looked at the picture again noticed that Harris’s chair was advanced ahead of Gantz’s so she could give him the side-eye!
Governments often send messages through this type of staging. I noticed this when Secretary of State Blinken visited Turkiye a couple months ago. Blinken, Ambassador Flake and another official met with President Erdogan, Foreign Minister Fidan, Turkiye’s Intelligence chief and its national security advisor. Pictures were taken before talks began. The Americans were like, “Hey guys!” All the Turks were frowning more or less. The message was “we’re not happy and where are those F-16s?”
There was also a domestic message. Many Turks believe the US pushes them around and is a poor ally. So Erdogan and his people wanted to show them that they are not intimidated by the superpower.