NEW — The sentencing memo from the federal government against Sam Bankman-Fried just dropped.
They want him to go away to prison for 40 to 50 years.https://t.co/EUIGAt3lxi pic.twitter.com/kIwGJUyVEt— Teddy Schleifer (@teddyschleifer) March 15, 2024
And they make a good argument, IMO. Per the Associated Press:
FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried’s orchestration of one of history’s largest financial frauds in his quest to dominate the cryptocurrency world deserves a prison sentence of 40 to 50 years, federal prosecutors on Friday told a federal judge.
Prosecutors made the recommendation in papers filed in Manhattan federal court in advance of a March 28 sentencing, where a judge will also consider a 100-year prison sentence recommended by the court’s probation officers and a request by defense lawyers for leniency and a term of imprisonment not to exceed single digits.
Bankman-Fried, 32, was convicted in November on fraud and conspiracy charges after his dramatic fall from a year earlier when he and his companies seemed to be riding a crest of success that had resulted in a Super Bowl advertisement and celebrity endorsements from stars like quarterback Tom Brady and comedian Larry David.
Some of his biggest successes, though, resulted from stealing at least $10 billion from investors and customers between 2017 and 2022 to buy luxury real estate, make risky investments, dispense outsized charitable donations and political contributions and to buy praise from celebrities, prosecutors said.
“His life in recent years has been one of unmatched greed and hubris; of ambition and rationalization; and courting risk and gambling repeatedly with other people’s money. And even now Bankman-Fried refuses to admit what he did was wrong,” prosecutors wrote…
They said crimes reflecting a “brazen disrespect for the rule of law” had depleted the retirement funds and nest eggs of people who could least afford to lose money, including some in war-torn or financially insecure countries, and had harmed others who sought to “break generational poverty” only to be left “devastated” and “heartbroken.”
“He knew what society deemed illegal and unethical, but disregarded that based on a pernicious megalomania guided by the defendant’s own values and sense of superiority,” prosecutors said…
“The defendant victimized tens of thousands of people and companies, across several continents, over a period of multiple years. He stole money from customers who entrusted it to him; he lied to investors; he sent fabricated documents to lenders; he pumped millions of dollars in illegal donations into our political system; and he bribed foreign officials. Each of these crimes is worthy of a lengthy sentence,” they wrote.
They said his “unlawful political donations to over 300 politicians and political action groups, amounting to in excess of $100 million, is believed to be the largest-ever campaign finance offense.”
And they said his $150 million in bribes to Chinese government officials was one of the single largest by an individual.
“Even following FTX’s bankruptcy and his subsequent arrest, Bankman-Fried shirked responsibility, deflected blame to market events and other individuals, attempted to tamper with witnesses, and lied repeatedly under oath,” prosecutors said, citing his trial testimony…
They’re right. https://t.co/Bgil6ekIGu
— Clean Observer (@Hammbear2024) March 15, 2024
In urging Judge Kaplan to sentence SBF to 40-50 years in prison, prosecutors post a Google doc they say he wrote in the days after FTX collapsed in which he mused about “bad ideas” for improving his image, such as going on Tucker Carlson and coming out “against the woke agenda.” pic.twitter.com/YZPDzNVmMQ
— Luc Cohen (@cohenluc) March 15, 2024
The list of campaign contributions the government has asked for forfeiture of, stemming from SBF and his cutouts’ attempt to use others’ money to buy the USFG, runs for 26 pages at one to two lines per contribution.
— Patrick McKenzie (@patio11) March 16, 2024
Axios finds a pony in the pile: Long, but not life-long!
Prosecutors want to hand Sam Bankman-Fried one of the longest sentences ever given to a white-collar criminal: 40 – 50 years. https://t.co/xIXnFvDdg1
— Axios (@axios) March 15, 2024
I guess the official number for SBF’s fraud is $11 billion. Something for the next generation of scammers to aspire toward pic.twitter.com/19vv3ziL4d
— Jacob Silverman (@SilvermanJacob) March 15, 2024
War for Ukraine Day 754: A Brief Monday Night Update
comrade scotts agenda of rage
By my “they’re lucky I’m not king” standards (which typically means head affixed to the end of a pike and put up outside the city walls as an example to others), this works.
Damien
11 billion? That’s how much the parent company of the for-profit college that defrauded me stole! Only difference is that I assume the people SBF ripped off aren’t committed to paying back the money for him.
teezyskeezy
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Does that mean it works because it’s a strong enough sentence for a would be head piker, or, is it because you accept a weaker than head-piking sentence because you know head piking is a *bit* over the line?
Either way, I’m not really seriously inquiring in earnest, just passing the time by being silly, same as most.
BellyCat
But, but… those cherubic locks of hair!
Dangerman
SoCal Juicers, hope you caught the Vandyland launch at 730. Perfect night. Stage separation (1 to 2 or 2 to 3) was purrrrrdy.
Tehanu
And even with all that, he still hasn’t broken as many laws or behaved and spoken worse than Dump.
satby
The court’s probation officers clearly don’t think he can be rehabilitated either. Impressive.
hueyplong
Hard to read this without contemplating a hypothetical sentencing memo about Trump.
Another Scott
Big numbers are appropriate here. People aren’t going to change their behavior unless they see there are real consequences for stealing and all the rest.
Speaking of taking people to the woodshed…
Meanwhile, … Whitehouse.gov:
Bibi keeps saying that the Rafah offensive is going to happen. Joe keeps saying you better think carefully about that.
Good for Joe. Keep the pressure on.
Cheers,
Scott.
Roberto el oso
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: As I have often mused, if I were an absolute monarch I would set a lot of things to order. I would not, however, wish to be one of my subjects.
TeezySkeezy
@BellyCat: “cherubic.”
NotMax
FYI.
Exclusive: Musk’s SpaceX is building spy satellite network for US intelligence agency, sources say.
Hungry Joe
Although I’m generally in the mainstream of Balloon Juice thought, I suspect I’m an outlier on prison sentencing. I lean toward the Icelandic model: Except in the case(s) of extreme violence, pretty much 15 years, max. That’s a serious chunk of anyone’s life. Repeat offenders … well, see you in another 20 years, give or take. And prison life should be decent, healthy; offenders are sentenced to confinement, not to inhumane treatment. Sure, people like Sam Asshole Whatever did a lot of bad, greedy, harmful stuff, but still: 15 years is a long, long time. Ultimately I think such guidelines will make for a better, more compassionate society.
Or maybe I’m full of it. Wouldn’t be the first time.
Mike in NC
Hey, I’d be satisfied if Fat Bastard went to prison for a mere 20 years.
TeezySkeezy
@Roberto el oso: Imagine KING Homer Simpson demanding you tell him what was your favorite part of MP and the Holy Grail, IMMEDIATELY. What waaaas iiiiiit???? “Um, sir, it was um…” BUUUUUUURP, off with his head.
Would your kingdom be any better than that? Then you are doing better than most randos given too much power.
(obviously for humorous purposes only)
Mai Naem mobile
I think SBF will end up getting a pardon from a corrupt POTUS who will get paid off down the road for the pardon – probably via a family member. Things will settle down. SBF will get forgotten and then a lameduck POTUS with nothing to lose will give him the pardon on their way out of office.
Tony G
@TeezySkeezy: To me he looks like John Belushi in “Animal House”. But Belushi was funny. This guy, not so much.
Mai Naem mobile
@NotMax: Muse shouldn’t even have a contract with the US government to provide janitorial services forget a contract for sensitive security stuff.
TeezySkeezy
@Mai Naem mobile: “a corrupt POTUS.” If you don’t mean ‘you-know-who,’ then you are *really* thinking farther into the future than most of us. More power to you.
dmsilev
@hueyplong: Biggly sentence. Strong men with tears in their eyes will come forward to praise the length of the sentence.
TeezySkeezy
@Tony G:
Wait until he’s jumping that ladder sideways to escape prison. Might be more problematic that Belushi’s ladder scene!!!
Redshift
@Hungry Joe: You’re probably right. From what I’ve read/heard discussed by people with more expertise is that it’s been well established for more than a hundred years that it’s the certainty of getting caught that deters crime, not the severity of punishment. His prison term needs to be long enough to disrupt his connections so he doesn’t go right back to his old ways, but beyond that, taking away his money and strictly monitoring his finances after he gets out would probably be just as effective.
ColoradoGuy
I see he managed to drag “woke” into it. It’s a dessert! It’s a floor polish! It’s whatever you want it to be!
counterfactual
@NotMax:
The spooks have been talking about constellations of cheap rapidly deployable satellites for 20 years..
SpaceX has manufactured hundreds of cheap satellites for Starlink,
This contract is for SpaceX’s “Starshield” division for DoD/NRO contracts, which sounds like another insulation layer to keep mush-for-brains from meddling.
Yes, Elon is a Nazi, but so was Wernher von Braun and Serhei Korolo’ov thrived under Stalin and Khrushchev.
sdhays
@Hungry Joe: I say sentence him to 70 years and then let’s talk about sentencing reform for everyone. I agree with you generally, but I’m not going to argue that the system should deliver that for SBF by himself. The system should be changed.
And, of course, you’re absolutely right that prisons shouldn’t be hell holes where we throw people to rot and be victimized over and over and over.
TeezySkeezy
@dmsilev: It’s such a long sentence, sir, we can’t even call it human. Just like you sir, we say inhuman, too…to describe the length…of your sentence. They said…it’s definitely not geoduck caliber, which I think is a good thing, I think, I think it is…they actually said it, they said, you aren’t a geoduck, which is a clam…so they basically said I’m not a clam. Can you believe that folks…that means “vertebrush” is still open. I could still be a vertespluahvrug…aagh… I could still be that, if I’m lucky…at least I’m not “oyster” which means you losers are gonna open me up for my pearls.
dmsilev
@TeezySkeezy: My head aches just reading that.
TeezySkeezy
@dmsilev: Sorry. lol. I mean for really sorry. And for real, lol.
But it only works because you are too well versed in his slurring of speech. that vertebrate thing…you wouldn’t have known what that was 10 years ago…but now…you read it exactly the right way, without help. that’s where we are.
Chetan Murthy
@Redshift: @Hungry Joe: In a world where crimes like SBF’s and TGF’s were found and prosecuted with high likelihood, sure, I understand the sentencing caps. But that’s not the world we live in. In this world, white collar crimes are high likely to go unpunished. The only way to deter, is to make the punishments for those who *are* caught/tried/punished … eyewateringly severe.
AlaskaReader
The FBI reports that white-collar crime costs the United States over $300 billion a year.
…federal government records document that the prosecution of white-collar offenses has been declining for more than a decade and is now at its lowest point.
Results also show that the majority of criminal referrals for white-collar offenses that federal prosecutors receive are closed without prosecution.
A further clear finding is that the decision to criminally charge a business in contrast to an individual for engaging in white-collar criminal activity is exceedingly rare (just 1%)
By comparison, common crimes like burglary, larceny and theft cost just $16 billion per year.
Seems we could redirect our crime fighting efforts, eh?
Chetan Murthy
@AlaskaReader: this. The largest form of property crime in America by dollars lost is accounting control fraud.
NotMax
Has this been brought up?
A matched pair of chucklef*cks.
scav
@sdhays: Yup, if we’re going to fix the system, let’s do it after we establish that rich financial crooks get hauled over just as many hot coals as everyone else. Overachiever. Used up all of those legendary strikes all at once.
Carlo Graziani
@Hungry Joe: I don’t disagree. However, I would be very unhappy to see white-collar crime sentences get Beccaria-style enlightenment, while other crime retains punitive sentencing. SBF should be sentenced according to the seriousness accorded to sentencing attending drug crime, or carjacking, etc. They are all to be considered in a single theory of rehabilitation and deterrence, unmodulated by social class and race.
Given where progress on such matters stands now, he can rot in prison, thanking his lucky stars that prosecutors have had the mercy to only wish to deprive him of his “working age”, and not of his entire lifetime.
TeezySkeezy
@NotMax: It’s fun to think *maybe* these people, to a point, have built up such an artificial understanding of the world that they are actually completely helpless when it comes down to it. Like the person who reads about Aikido and gets their ass kicked at a Gracy dojo in the back of a hardware store.*
*saw it, was smart enough not to experience it.
Jay
@Chetan Murthy:
also up there in the top 5 is wage theft by employers.
Jackie
TIFG is announcing his list of who he’ll have prosecuted one name at a time. Yesterday, it was Liz Cheney. Today it’s:
I imagine everyone on the J6 Special Committee – including witnesses who testified – will be named. Well, maybe not Javanka.
Jackie
@NotMax:
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
@Hungry Joe: Yeah, that’s what I came here to say. I don’t want just this guy to get 15 years though, and some poor kid who stole a bicycle to get 20-to-life. There would have to be an overhaul of all sentencing, with much lighter sentences for things like the kid stealing the bicycle. And, yes, humane prisons. Those aren’t things that people in our country value much, but they would work a lot better at deterring crime.
wjca
I’m fine with that. At 15 years per person defrauded, that’s how many centuries, total?
mrmoshpotato
How about 40-50 life sentences?
This fucking baby-faced bastard!
West of the Rockies
@Hungry Joe:
The American penal system is not about rehabilitation. It’s about punishment and perhaps deterring others. (I’m not saying that’s how it should be.) But 100 years does sound crazy harsh.
West of the Rockies
@NotMax:
God, I hope Kari Lake gets bored with politics and losing soon and fucks right off.
TeezySkeezy
@dmsilev: Also, a bit of an indulgence here, let me quote a terribly fantastic low budget awful not great but great satire from the 80s, The Stuff: “Well, Mr. Rutheford…I’m beginning to think you are not as dumb as you appear to be…” “Sir…no one is as dumb as *I* appear to be….”
AlaskaReader
White-collar crimes are estimated to make up only 3% of federal prosecutions.
piratedan
@NotMax: I’m sure its well known in the MAGAspehere but at this point for the people of Arizona she’s becoming tiresome. I’m waiting to see how much support she’s bled off in the state civil war among GOP types as its possible that she’s simply exhausted them of all patients (and depleted the party bank accounts).
Jackie
@West of the Rockies: Kari Lake used to be the local teevee broadcaster in AZ; why not be TIFG’s campaign media mouth? She’s as good at spewing MAGA BS as Kayleigh “I’ll never lie to you” and Sarah Huckabee Sanders combined.
Another Scott
@Hungry Joe: Dunno.
On the subject of white collar crime, I’m reminded of Micahel Milken:
(Milken got off very easy, IMHO.)
And Bernie Madoff:
SBF hasn’t pleaded guilty. Maybe we can talk about reduced sentences when he takes responsibility for his actions. People who are plainly guilty of notorious offenses who will not take responsibility are a danger to society.
As a general principle, yes, sentences should have logic and reason behind them. Were I Benevolent Despot then there would be all kinds of reforms to make that happen. But with our system that puts innocent people in jail for decades (or even executes them) while white collar mobsters are hailed as heroes if their crimes are infamous enough, I’m not feeling so charitable.
Madoff was an exception, but not enough of an example to keep SBF and others from thinking that they can do what they want with other people’s money. More examples are plainly needed.
FWIW.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
marcopolo
@Another Scott: From what I’ve read today (think it was an article or two linked in JoshTPM’s shitter feed) it sounds like the IDF has: 1) aleady demobilized a fair number of reservists; 2) pulled substantial forces back from the Rafa area to the Gaza border & to the corridor they cut through the center of Gaza. The folks who can grok all this say the result of these actions is the IDF isn’t currently in a position to do the same kind of intensive ground action in Rafa as they did earlier in the north and that Bibi’s threats to do so aren’t backed up by the facts/boots on the ground. I hope this is correct.
Another Scott
@marcopolo: Interesting.
I hope so too.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
marcopolo
@Another Scott: Well at least Milliken will no longer be getting that Ruth Bader Ginsberg award (for exceptional women, lol) at the Library of Congress that was scheduled for this month. Apparently the brouhaha/outrage generated from the announcement has led the MAGA widow (the husband and RBG were actually fans of each other when the award was set up but he died) to cancel the ceremony in its entirety. So no award for Musk, Murdoch, Stallone, or Stewart either. Yeah, what a group! Feel like Snoop Dog should have been in there as well.
Jay
@Another Scott:
Milken ripped off the proles,
Madoff ripped off the rich and powerful.
danielx
@NotMax:
Could we say bumblefucks instead?
marcopolo
@AlaskaReader: Cause they are harder to prosecute. The defendants are better resourced (legal-wise), the cases tend to take longer to investigate, longer to present at trial, and are more difficult to walk juries through. If the incentive is to win cases (and as many as possible) to burnish your record you stay away from them. Same thing with the IRS going after low income folks that the computer has flagged for violations around dependents and child tax credits instead of white collar tax fraud that needs to be investigated by actual IRS personnel, though a lot of that was the shortage of staff as well.
Poe Larity
Sure he’s a sociopath, but he’s the sociopath that wiped out Effective Altruism!
Biden should give him a pardon so he can wipe out more of that kind. His work is not done until I see Peter Thiel with a windex bottle and squeegee at the exit light.
wjca
I have a real problem with these light sentences for the rich. Windex and squeegee? I want him along the freeway, with a trash bag and a stick with a nail in the end, policing up litter.
danielx
This thread is one of the reasons I read BJ, a lot of intelligent discussion of a lot of topics, going from hither to thither to yon. Indeed, among topics that have given me thought:
Description of Bankman-Frieds’s crimes, attitude and such. Reading about them is like reading a thumbnail description of the Orange Orifice’s crimes and attitudes. Of course it’s pure coincidence that the initials (one literal, one vernacular) SBF are one and the same, but it gives one to think.
Disparity between penalties for accounting control fraud, which comes in all shapes and sizes, violent crimes, out and out swindles, all that, and penalties for all those? Needs another book. White collar crime pays a shitload better, less chance of getting caught, and sentences are lighter. Feeding back, naturally, to Trump’s fixed belief that laws which apply to everyone else do not apply to him.
Among a host of other reasons to follow Balloon Juice, among being Betty Cracker’s contributions. She has been ailing, is she better?
Jay
@danielx:
Well?, she’s out of the Poke em and Jab em and Food sucks emporium and back at home.
She wrote a front page post yesterday.
Well?, maybe, she hasn’t said.
AlaskaReader
@marcopolo:
If ? How about if that’s a fed prosecutor’s main concern we remove said prosecutor.
I don’t want excuses, I want convictions and more of them.
If it takes changing fed prosecutor’s cultural norms,
…change their cultural norms.
And if corporations are people, and found to be a criminal enterprise,
…put the lot of the corporate crime principals in jail and shutter the corporation.
Could start with Wells Fargo.
BellyCat
@TeezySkeezy: Well done!
BellyCat
Penal reform, sure. But how ‘bout judicial reform — what would that look like?
I’m increasingly in favor of a citizens panel of non-lawyers that get final say on all rulings at all levels. The only question for me is how many people and whether they are elected or appointed and anonymous, kind of like the referee model. They get no more than let’s say a week to write a 500 word (or less!) review.
Let’s hear some other ideas because the current judicial system is absolutely fucking broken.
ETA: Kindergarten kids might do it. They seem to know what “fair“ looks like better than most adults.
teezyskeezy
@BellyCat: I’m not as dumb as I appear.
BellyCat
@teezyskeezy: Apparently I am.
This place has gotten so popular nobody comes here anymore. Tap… Tap… Is this thing on?
piratedan
if peeps have not had their daily dose of weirdness yet today/tonight I have a series of posts under the hashtag (#) Billionaire Hobbies over on bluesky. Some are semi-serious, many are not. Hope that it may bring a smile or some eye-rolling as a change of pace for better Billionaire Behavior.
BellyCat
AP News: “MINEOLA, N.Y. (AP) — Olympic gold medalist Caitlyn Jenner on Monday said she supported a local New York official’s order banning female sports teams with transgender athletes from using county-owned facilities.”
Just wow…
piratedan
@BellyCat: kind of typical GOP behavior, using the ladder that Dem policy put into place and then demanding it be pulled up so that no one else can follow.
BellyCat
@piratedan: They’re just following Justice Thomas’ lead.
Tish James is not happy, issuing a cease and desist letter to Nassau County.
The Women’s Roller Derby League is fighting back!
Chetan Murthy
@piratedan: @BellyCat: What can you say about such morally bankrupt behaviour? heavy sigh. At least, we can know that nobody is fooled: none of our side, and for sure none of the other side.
I don’t know what Jenner thinks they’re accomplishing, but for sure, covering themselves in shit is what they’ve done.
piratedan
@BellyCat: yeah, saw someone post a meme elsewhere today that stated that if Fani Wells had to divest herself of any attachments to Mr Wade or recuse, why isn’t the same true for Justice Thomas and his wife when it comes to SCOTUS ruling on Trump J6 issues…..
Melancholy Jaques
I’m no fan of Bankman-Fried or white collar criminals, but I am leery of basing sentencing on how pissed of we are or what an asshole the defendant is.
A while back I was talking with a client who had been in prison about the sentences being given to Jan 6 insurrectionists. I remarked that sentences of 3 or 4 or 5 years seemed light. The client said, that’s because you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Chetan Murthy
@piratedan:
Whoo! Don’t go givin’ Clarence any ideas, he might break out the Coke cans and the pubic hairs! [eeeeewwwww!]
Melancholy Jaques
@piratedan:
The obvious and rather well-known answer is that the rules do not apply to Republicans.
Jinchi
I just discovered that RFK Jr. spoke with Tony Robbins about being his VP and had the absurd thought
“Does this guy know anybody with political experience?”
Why is he recruiting from a list of minor celebrities?
piratedan
@Melancholy Jaques: no lie told….
Tehanu
@wjca:
I want him cleaning toilets in a prison, preferably the one he’ll be in for the next 40 years — with a toothbrush. Or changing bedpans in an old folks’ home — yeah, that would work.
Tony Jay
Nice of Bankjob-Fraud to spell it out so clearly in his free association ramble.
In the hook for billions? No good arguments? Looking at Eternity without parole in prison? Just say you’re a Republican, attack ‘Woke’ and wait for the Media to turn your crimes into ‘the latest troubling incidence of partisan lawfare’. At the very least you get the option of being pardoned at a later date by a Republican President.
Jay
@Tehanu:
Why would you want to take work away from immigrants and subject the elderly to that level of abuse?
Sparrows,Pigeons, no curtain rod, bridge or underpass.Jay
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pro-trump-michigan-attorney-arrested-after-hearing-in-d-c-over-leaking-dominion-documents-1.6812791
206inKY
Since this is an open thread, I have a scary dental problem and was wondering if anyone has insight. Today I went in for a root canal but turned out the tooth needs extraction, which will hopefully happen at the dentist tomorrow if they don’t need an oral surgeon.
My pain today reached the most intolerable I’ve ever experienced—I’ve had really nasty injuries in the past, but this toothache has gotten so fucking painful I can’t handle it for any extended period without losing my mind.
I’m relying on Advil since I’m afraid of even touching harder stuff after losing a cousin to fentanyl in 2019. I’ve always rejected opioids from doctors and have gotten by fine with Advil in the past. But this feels like a different beast.
Does anyone have experience using stronger pain meds for limited periods (1-2 days) without getting addicted? Does it seem irrational to worry that a limited dose could somehow trigger addiction right away?
I’m sorry of this is the wrong setting for a question like this. Just hitting a low point. Thanks in advance.
Chetan Murthy
@206inKY: I’m sorry I can’t give you any advice on this, but I thought I should just chime in with sympathy. I’ve had that “root canal for days” thing, where the pain feels just unbearable, and you’re waiting for your turn with the dental surgeon, wondering if you can stand it ….. my sister described it to me once as “the worst pain short of childbirth.” I’m a guy, so I don’t know, but I’ll trust her on that.
It was really painful, and the only reason I didn’t take codeine or something, was that even though the dentist gave me the scrip, the pharmacy was unable to fill it (they literally didn’t have the pills, sigh).
206inKY
@Chetan Murthy: Thanks, this means a lot to feel less alone in this limbo.
Jay
@206inKY:
addiction generally requires a longer period of use than 1 or two days.
In the past, I have used clove oil, (numbs the nerves, apply with a q tip as needed) for teeth issues.
YMMV.
There are also a bunch of over the counter products as well.
Roberto el oso
@206inKY: Express your concern and fears honestly to your dentist, they can hopefully reassure you. Also, the removal of the tooth itself may result in some (hopefully fairly immediate) diminishment of the pain. You may need antibiotics to handle any infection. If you have a close friend who you trust, you can ask them to take charge of the pain meds and only give them to you as directed by your dentist. For pain like this, which isn’t chronic, it seems unlikely that they will give you more than a small amount, but sufficient to get you thru the worst after-effects.
Sending good vibes your way!
206inKY
Thanks, all. Very grateful for the quick and reassuring insights even in the middle of the night. BJ is a beautiful community.
Geminid
@206inKY: I’ve gotten some temporary relief from gum pain by sloshing very salty water around the gums, spitting it out.
NotMax
@206inKY
A random thought which has provided some temporary alleviation in the past.
Got anything alcoholic in the house? Whiskey, vodka, wine, whatever. (Not the pricey stuff, you’re going to be spitting it out.). Swish a splash around inside your mouth between the cheek and the tooth for 15 to 30 seconds or so, without swallowing. For me, works better to dull the ache than OTC stuff like Anbesol; YMMV. Repeat as the pain peaks.
Tony Jay
@206inKY:
@Geminid:
I also gained relief with the ‘water in mouth’ self-treatment, it was the only thing that took away the fire, even briefly.
BUT
It’s not a long or even medium term tactic. I was doing it for a few days and ended up having to take myself to A&E with leg cramps. Turned out I wasn’t following the ‘spot it out’ rule and had ingested so much water in a short period that I’d washed all of the sodium out of my system and was a minor medical miracle for still being alive.
So, yeah. In moderation.
Chris T.
@206inKY:
Yes. In fact I’ve used potentially-addictive pain relief stuff for a month without getting addicted. Specifically, I was on vicodin for broken bones: its worst side effect for me was the rather amazing constipation. I found that it didn’t so much “remove pain” as “make me not care that it hurt”, though. (They had given me a demerol shot in the ER, earlier. That one didn’t have the weird dissociative effect, but it did make me almost pass out and also feel really queasy for a bit.)
Addiction is very complicated: it depends on the individual and the setting. Some people never get addicted, some people get addicted pretty quickly, and in general “having stuff to do” (vs “being bored”) helps prevent addiction.
In short, it’s always good to be cautious, but sometimes an opiate is a good thing.
mrmoshpotato
@206inKY: Replying late to this,but when I got my wisdom teeth surgically extracted about 10 years ago, my oral surgeon prescribed hydrocodone. I took one or two over the first couple days; it made me always feel tired, even after a full 8 hours of sleep. I switched to over the counter ibuprofen since the pain was pretty minor, and wound up tossing the remaining 28 pills.
Got a similar drug after knee scoping (codeine-coated Tylenol)? and wound up the same, couple over a couple days, Ibuprofen switch, tossed the rest.
Let your dentist know about your addiction concerns. Maybe they can prescribe a none opiate.
NotMax
Yay!
State of Happiness (a.k.a. Lykkeland) season 2 is up on MHz Choice. Thoroughly enjoyed the first season.
As MHz and Topic are merging into one combined service in April,, expecting the third season to drop right quick.
Spc
@Hungry Joe: i largely agree; 15-20 max in Fed prison (85% served minimum) is a strong enough punishment (the courts shouldn’t be in the business of sending “messages.”) Half a century to life is absurd for financial crimes.
Geminid
@marcopolo: Laura Rozen put up a good substack article yeserdat titled:
Sullivan said that after the Biden/Netanyahu phone call, Israel is in fact sending an inter-agency team to Washington to confer with US officials on the projected Rafah operation.
Most of the article centers on Sullivan’s appearance before reporters yesterday, but Rozen also touches on the hostage/ceasefife negotiations in Doha between Egyptian, Israeli and Qatari officials, with the Qataris serving as interlocutors with Hamas leasers based in Qatar. Rozen also discusses Senator Schumer’s speech last week.
Rozen:
Sullivan said that Biden focused on matters of “policy and srategy” and not Israeli politics during the call.
This link seems to prodiuce a “page not found” notice but then lists three of Rozen’s Substack articles that can be clicked on to sccess tgem. This one is listed first.
https://diplomatic.substack.com/p/biden-asks-israel-pm-to-send-team?r=3tv9q&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true
Geminid
@Tony Jay: Yes, a temporary measure that must be done carefully. My pain was never so bad I did this enough to get salt poisoning.
Geminid
@Geminid: More from Laura Rozen’s Substack article:
Geminid
@Geminid: The link I put up seems to work more cleanly now, and leads directly to Rozen’s Substack article.
I know Laura Rozen mainly through her Twitter account where she mainly aggregates sound reporting on international and security affairs. I encountered her through Cheryl Rofer’s social media posts.
Rozen mainly reports on open source information, unlike Axios reporter Barak Ravid who evidently has good sources among US and Israeli officials.
Frank Wilhoit
@Hungry Joe: Read between the lines. It’s not about SBF. It’s about the rest of us. Prisons (and psychiatric hospitals) are not about the people on the inside. They’re about the people on the outside.
Matt McIrvin
@206inKY: Not irrational. When I had my knee surgery they sent me home with a vial full of oxycodone pills (I understand it’s often hard to even get that these days). I tried to tough it out and rely solely on the mix of OTC painkillers they already had me on. But as whatever anesthetics and opioids they had me on at the hospital wore off, it became clear after about a day that that wasn’t going to be enough.
On recommendation from a visiting nurse, I took one of the oxycodones. And then I never touched them again. Eventually put them down the drug disposal chute at CVS. That was enough to get me over the hump.
So it’s possible to do this. I think the fact that your situation is going to be over when the tooth comes out helps. One of the things that gets people addicted is that they’re using the opioids to treat a chronic pain that is just going to come back as bad as ever (or worse) when they stop.
Princess
@Another Scott: I knew a woman whose life was absolutely ruined by Bernie Madoff. Far worse than if he’d broken into her house, beat her up and stole everything she owned, for which he would have had a much higher sentence. And multiply her by hundreds of others.
i also notice that people start talking about sentencing reform when some nice, white, college-educated, speaks like us person gets charged with something.
Princess
@206inKY: FWIW you can take more advil than the highest allowed amount for a brief period if necessary. You can also mix advil and Tylenol (but never go over the daily Tylenol dose). I am not a doctor/do this at your own risk.
RepubAnon
@Mai Naem mobile: only if he blames his crimes on being woke, but has now converted to worshipping Trump.
Betty
I wonder how Michael Lewis feels,about SBF using him as a possible messenger to rehabilitate his image. Embarrassing.
Chris T.
BTW I can’t believe we’ve gotten this far without a “… so don’t encourage (or incorrage) him”…
Ha Nguyen
It is not cost-effective to do multiple prosecutions on someone who is certain to re-offend. Much better to give one sentence enough to contain all the years that they will have gotten with the future prosecutions.
Baud
@Princess:
We talk about it in the context of news stories about sentencing. Usually that means a high profile white collar crime, but sometimes we talk about it when some poor or minority defendant is over sentenced. Also, many here have argued that the sentences for the white J6 defendants have been too lenient.
What the news covers is the bigger problem.
Tony G
@Mike in NC: Given Trump’s “perfect physical condition”, any prison sentence that exceeded 10 years would probably be a life sentence for him.
Kay
The United States could cut sentences in half across the board and still be an international outlier in lengths of sentences.
It’s nutty. Forty years is a crazily long sentence. I’m not asking for the US to be lenient – I’m just asking that the US be sane and in line with norms about this.
Kay
If they did more of these white collar prosecutions maybe they wouldn’t have to go bonkers with sentencing to “make an example” of the person convicted. Don’t “make examples” and do performance “justice”. Just do the job consistently and thoroughly. We’ll have fewer financial crimes.
Dave
@Hungry Joe: I agree with this as long as it is coupled with, especially regarding white collar crimes, consistent enforcement. My very layman’s understanding is that probability of being caught and held responsible is a more effective deterrent than severity of punishment
SFAW
I guess I’m a little amazed that SBFuckhead’s list of “probably bad ideas” did not include “13) Murder parents; ask Court for clemency because I’m an orphan.”
As we used to say in the Old Neighborhood: the balls on this guy.
lowtechcyclist
@Hungry Joe:
I agree that prisons shouldn’t be hellholes. The inmates shouldn’t have to worry about their safety, facilities should be clean and sanitary, and nutrition and medical care should be adequate. The punishment for crime should be confinement, no more and no less.
I also agree that we should drastically reform sentencing. But when we do, let’s start with street criminals in the ghetto who grew up with no idea what the path might be to what we’d consider a normal middle-class life, rather than with people like SBF who grew up with every possible advantage and would have had a glide path to careers that would have paid in the mid six figures, if not way more.
For now, I’d say he should be sentenced to thirty days in the slammer for each person he stole money from. We can reduce that when we do sentencing reform across the board.
Also, people in this thread have mentioned that it’s a lot harder to prosecute white-collar crime. But harder or not, it still has to be done. Federal prosecutors at least need to be staffed up to be able to handle such cases.
And if prosecutors are incentivized to not take on those cases because they’re rewarded on the basis of their W-L record, then classify the crimes accordingly: let winning the straightforward cases be the equivalent of a win in Class A ball; let complex white-collar crimes be the majors. Let’s see how good your fastball is in The Show, kiddo.
wjca
Yup. When awaiting root canal, the usual painkillers weren’t touching it. Dentist gave me a perscription for oxycontin. Knocked it right out. Took a couple over the course of 24 hours, and that was it. Once the root canal was done, took the bottle of oxy back to the pharmacy to dispose of. YMMV, of course.
JAFD
@206inKY:
Got a prescript for, I think, Percodet, couple of decades ago, after minor surgery. Took about half thereafter, a couple later for tooth pulls, gout, pulled ribcage muscles. Must treat them with respect. You should be OK
Ruckus
@Hungry Joe:
I think there is absolutely something to discuss, and likely amend the concept of extremely long sentences. I also think that there are some who will never change and will always be pure shit. And as we are all humans, (some more human than others) we all have to work to be a part of rather than a disaster to civilization. But there will always be those that will always be pure damage to the rest of us. Their numbers may not be a large percentage of the population but the mess they leave, the lives they damage, the humans they screw over, makes them a massive detriment to humanity. IOW we do not have to make prison sentences outlandish for all but there will always be those few whose only goal in life is to fuck over everyone else. This seems to be one of the cases where there is no concept of wrong and so much damage that most everyone suffers in some way. And because of that I believe that a reasonable sentence for most is advisable but there will still be some that have zero concept that they did wrong and will do it again if they have any chance whatsoever. This case seems like one of those. So much damage, no regret whatsoever and very likely if given 15 yrs would do the same or worse again. There seems to be no remorse, no concept of having done massively wrong. The very fact that the court (and we) are discussing this and that he seemingly has zero remorse or concept of wrong doing means to me that he really will likely never understand what he did was actually wrong, and on a very large scale.
He didn’t murder anyone but he harmed millions.
Ruckus
@Jinchi:
Why is he recruiting from a list of minor celebrities?
So they don’t outshine him…..
Paul in KY
@Hungry Joe: 15 years for all the fun he had stealing the money! It sorta makes crime pay. The only way (IMO) to stop this ‘white collar’ thieving is to give big sentences.
Paul in KY
@Jinchi: He saw one minor celebrity get to the top…
(screams in anguish and rage!!!!)
StringOnAStick
@206inKY: You likely have a infection at where the root tips used to be, possibly a retained root tip and the pain is the pressure because by the infection and swelling. Contact the dentist immediately, you need to be seen immediately if the pain is this bad.
Sad for your other question, I had both knees replaced, one at a time and I was on significant pain meds for 30 days both times and had no addiction issues. Without those pain meds it would have been intolerable, period, and you don’t heal as well when in significant pain and sleep deprived on top of it. Addiction is an individual thing as far as who is more likely to have that problem .
Paul in KY
@206inKY: They serve a need. Think you have that need right the fuck now. Get you some ASAP.
Best of luck on the tooth removal.
Paul in KY
@Spc: He ruined alot of innocent lives. Think of all your capital that you have scraped and saved for years for your old age and it’s gone. Spent on a 20 person jacuzzi rental in Monaco. By that slimy, non-caring fuck.
He’s just as evil as the motherfucker who pistolwhips someone as they are robbing a bank.
He did this to many, many people.
wjca
I wouldn’t go that far, necessarily.
But I would say that the sentences need to be long enough that we don’t see someone making a purely dispassionate cost/benefit analysis: I can steal a few million, and stash it in the Caymans or some such. So what if I get a 5-10 year prison sentence (especially in a club Fed prison for white collar criminals)? I’ve still got a luxury lifestyle for decades going forward.