Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

We still have time to mess this up!

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

No one could have predicted…

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

The republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Everything is totally normal and fine!!!

All hail the time of the bunny!

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Dear elected officials: Trump is temporary, dishonor is forever.

A fool as well as an oath-breaker.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

T R E 4 5 O N

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

You are here: Home / Supreme Court / Supreme Court Corruption / Supreme Court Oral Arguments at 10 am – Does Idaho’s Need to Control Women Trump the Existing Law that Guarantees EMTALA

Supreme Court Oral Arguments at 10 am – Does Idaho’s Need to Control Women Trump the Existing Law that Guarantees EMTALA

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Should women with pregnancy emergencies in Idaho be left to die rather than receive life-saving emergency treatment?

Should a state law be able to trump a federal law?   (which goes against a very basic legal principle)

That’s really the issue that is in front of the Not-So-Supreme Court today.

First off:  EMTALA stands for Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act

The Biden administration argues that EMTALA – which requires emergency rooms that participate in Medicare to provide “necessary stabilizing treatment” – supersedes an Idaho law that makes it a crime to provide an abortion except in a handful of narrow circumstances, including to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.

Listen to audio at SCOTUS.

We talked about EMTALA earlier this week:

Not-So-Supreme Court Argument – Spitting Rage

I am not a lawyer, but I am a woman, and as far as I can tell, Idaho’s position is fuck yeah, let the women die.

SCOTUSblog article

An audio feed of  oral arguments is live-streamed on the Court’s website, and the Court posts the audiolater in the day. On the afternoon of each argument, the Court posts transcripts of that day’s arguments.

Reader Interactions

213Comments

  2. 2.

    New Deal democrat

    I am not a lawyer, but I am a woman, and as far as I can tell, Idaho’s position is fuck yeah, let the women die.

    Regrettably, I think you are correct. We are in a whole new era. With Dobbs, for the very first time in our nation’s history, a constitutional right was reversed. The overall question becomes, what happens to all of the statutes that were either (a) turned into dead letters by the previous constitutional rulings granting rights; or (b) passed during the time that the constitutional rights were granted, implicitly or explicitly relying upon those rights?

    Most notably in Arizona, we have seen the jurisprudentially ridiculous position that the previous dead statutes become zombie re-animated statutes. It’s ridiculous because it makes a mockery of the Supreme Court’s own precedents if Legislatures must operate with the presumption that today’s Supreme Court ruling might become tomorrow’s trash.

    EMTALA was enacted post-Roe and at least implicitly relied upon it. The GOP 6 on the Supreme Court in Dobbs emphatically said that abortion rights are to be left to the States. They are going to say that EMTALA cannot interfere with that; that to the extent EMTALA relied upon Roe, it too is void.

  3. 3.

    TBone

    I had a cheese incident yesterday where the last slice of cheese had been torn into the perfect shape of Idaho.  I can tear it into the shape of something else today if necessary because I left it that way.

  4. 4.

    Omnes Omnibus

    My usual warning: Don’t read too much into the oral arguments. Sometimes they give an idea of where things are going. Sometimes they do not.

  7. 7.

    Baud

    Technically, Idaho says that life saving abortions are legal in that state, but don’t have to be.

  11. 11.

    RaflW

    @Baud: I do not expect you to know this answer, but a while back someone around here was suggesting that the press needs to report on how many (few!) ‘save the life’ abortions are performed in states like Idaho — and how the maternal fatality rate is doing post-Dobbs.

    Because all these red states hide their blanket bans behind ‘save the life’ language that is designed to make doctors really nervous about making those medical decisions, and I suspect the data would show that.

    But it needs to get dug up and reported!

    eta: This doesn’t look into geographic differences (another did, and it’s unsurprisingly worse in red states, but it’s pre-Dobbs), but we’re so fucking ‘pro-life’ in the US that we’ve bucked the developed world trend and for years have had worsening mortality rates. It’s shocking, and (again) puts the lie to the g.d. Republicans. They don’t care about babies or their moms surviving.

  12. 12.

    Baud

    @RaflW:

    I don’t know the stats.  But in Idaho, if the doctor gets it wrong, he or she goes to jail.

    ETA: Idaho says it will defer to the doctor’s judgement to some extent, but what doctor would trust them.

  16. 16.

    Old Man Shadow

    I am not a lawyer, but I am a woman, and as far as I can tell, Idaho’s position is fuck yeah, let the women die.

    Well, yeah. There is nothing more beautiful than for a woman to give her life as a martyr for motherhood.

    It’s God’s will, doncha know?

  17. 17.

    Melancholy Jaques

    I am not a lawyer, but I am a woman, and as far as I can tell, Idaho’s position is fuck yeah, let the women die.

    There is an element of “We need to teach these sluts a lesson” behind all of this.

  18. 18.

    RaflW

    @Baud: There was that confusing case in TX a while back that I think the upshot was: We “leave it to the medical judgement of the doctor”. And then we adjudicate their medical review anyway. So watch the fuck out.

  19. 19.

    rikyrah

    @Baud:

    Imma say it again..

    find me 25…

    not 2500

    not 250

     

    25 exceptions for ‘rape, incest, life of mother’

    where Abortions have taken place in these Red States.

     

    THEY.DO.NOT.EXIST.

  20. 20.

    Baud

    @RaflW:

    Right. Any doctor that is willing to perform abortions is sinister and not to be trusted.  Just like doctors who handle trans healthcare.  If they’re not in the club, they’re liars.

  21. 21.

    Soprano2

    Just listening to the tool from Idaho defend this idea was making my blood pressure go up this morning. They care more about a fetus that can’t survive outside the mother’s womb than they do the actual woman. Expect lots of arguments that EMTALA actually says to defer to state law. If the court allows this, pregnant people aren’t safe in Idaho or any other state that does this.

  24. 24.

    Kay

    In one of the Texas cases where a complaint was made (the only cases we know about – there are likely thousands where the woman didn’t file a complaint) the miscarrying woman was refused treatment in the emergency room so her partner called 911 and the paramedics came and treated her in the emergency room bathroom. 

    This is the great legal scheme conservative lawyers from America’s most expensive colleges came up with – a legal scheme that results in these insanely dangerous and ludicrous results for women.

    Good on those paramedics though. They’re also subject to felony charges just like physicians- they saved her life anyway. We need more brave people like that.

  26. 26.

    Soprano2

    Also, how many other of EMTALA’s protections will states try to contravene? What about treating gay or trans people? Will they pass laws allowing medical personnel at hospitals to turn these people away based on their religious beliefs? And so on, I can see huge problems in the future if the court allows this. It’s barbaric to say they don’t have to save someone’s life.

  27. 27.

    Leto

    I just tuned in, and it sounds like the Idaho AG is… quietly yelling at Sotomayor? Looool, her closing statement there: “Oh, we’re back to that. Ok…” She’s been done with his shit since last year.

  28. 28.

    Soprano2

    @Baud: I suspect they’ll do that through changing the legal definition of rape, not through actually ending rape. These people are sick in the head. I think they don’t understand how repelled normal people are by the things they say.

  29. 29.

    Tony Jay

    I am not at a loose end, thank you very much. But this has been noodling around in my pipe for a while and better out than in. Seems like the right place.

    All apologies to the requisite personages.

    Ninety spies from China pay to read your stolen papers
    And working girls from Slovenia dream of alimony payments
    And if you share these ugly dreams
    that’s MAGATrumpication

    Ass-end of the world, nadir of Western civilization
    The scum that rose in the East, is about to settle in a caged location
    It’s understood Access Hollywood sold MAGATrumpication

    Paint the carcass, cloak the smell, can’t stop the toddler raging
    Orange skin, two, three, four chins, it’s a lost war that you’re waging

    It’s Stormy on this call
    Hard fail soft horn

    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication

    MAGA don’t care, it’s okay in their world, to have an Epstein Isle vacation
    But a teenage bride with Daddy’s baby inside gotta die to give their lives elation
    So we’ll break your star on the boulevard,
    thank MAGATrumpication

    Pretending you live on the wild frontier,
    but its just your Momma’s basement
    Father Coughlin burns down there,
    but is echoed on Rogan Nation
    Take Adderall like it’s magic beans,
    That’s MAGATrumpication

    Roe was razed by those who want a whiter population
    Well, everybody’s had enough, and will vote to change the station

    It’s Stormy on this call
    Hard fail soft horn

    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication

    Republican hopes for elections fold,
    Thanks to Joe’s big-tent creation,
    From bigly wins to your daughter’s bra,
    It’s all out of reach frustration
    And big Blue waves come to save the world from MAGATrumpication

    Paint the carcass, cloak the smell, can’t stop the toddler raging
    Sicker than the rest, ace the hate-sink test,
    but it’s not what the Norms are craving

    It’s Stormy on this call
    Hard fail soft horn

    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication
    Scream of MAGATrumpication

  34. 34.

    bbleh

    @WaterGirl: well somebody’s got to talk sense into those addled little heads …

    @Melancholy Jaques: yes. they are women I guess (born with lady parts therefore women, qed, also Jesus), but they are Fallen, and as such must suffer the consequences of their sins, lest they lead others into sin, as Eve did.  I mean, we have to ask who the real victims are here.

  37. 37.

    Betty Cracker

    Not listening, but is the mansplainer Idaho AG Raúl Labrador? He was a right-wing prick in the House before the current gig. It’s a pity someone with such a cool name is a misogynist fanatic who is trying to kill women.

  38. 38.

    WaterGirl

    So Idaho wants it to be like Russian Roulette.

    Depending on the doctor you get when your life and health is at risk, the doctor’s “good faith judgment” (aka are they “right-to-life” or “women-controlling” doctors) determines whether you live or die, or whether you can potentially have children in the future.

  40. 40.

    Kay

    @WaterGirl:

    They’ll  come up with some workaround that harms women – whether we live or die in childbirth matters not at all to fundie religious. They want the baby – valuable property.

  44. 44.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: It’s logical – if the court says “Well, state law says this and EMTALA has to bend to state law” what’s to keep states from making laws allowing all kinds of care to be denied? EMATLA was passed to keep hospitals from dumping poor patients, what’s to keep states from allowing it to happen again?

  45. 45.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud:

    Technically, Idaho says that life saving abortions are legal in that state, but don’t have to be.

    I don’t understand the distinction you are making.  Can you say more?

  46. 46.

    Almost Retired

    I vaguely recall “don’t piss off the Judge” as one of the first thing I was taught in law school.

    And on the topic of the Supreme Court, spare a thought for my friend and colleague Sandra Munoz who had her case heard yesterday.

    Her Salvadoran husband was summarily denied a visa because the government decided that his tattoos signified a gang affiliation (they do not).  Sandra sued arguing that her rights as a  U.S. citizen were violated by the lack of due process.

    The 9th Circuit ruled in her favor, but -alas – the Biden Administration appealed it, arguing that visa decisions are subject to review in only the most limited of circumstances.  Oral arguments did not go very well, with most of the Justices seemingly comfortable with deferring to State Department visa decisions.

    Sandra has a podcast called “law and order me some tacos,” so I expect she’ll address it when she gets back from DC.

  48. 48.

    Baud

    @WaterGirl:

    Idaho law currently says that a doctor can perform an abortion to save the mother’s life. But that’s a matter of grace, nothing requires a life exception.

  50. 50.

    oldgold

    Does anyone think there is a chance in Hell that one Judge’s mind will be changed by today’s oral argument?

    It is theatre.

  51. 51.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    Yup. We should bring an abortion case a month. Let the religious fundies on that court spend their entire tenure dealing with icky, yucky women’s health. Alito would rather you bleed out in the bathroom than have to think about women as people. We need a ruling on everything.

  53. 53.

    New Deal democrat

    @WaterGirl:

    Does federal law trump state law, or does it not?

    Answering that does not seem hard.

    Yes, but the Constitution trumps federal law. Since the Supreme Court in Dobbs decided that the Constitution requires that abortion must be left to the States, they are probably going to say that a federal statute may not contravene that.

  56. 56.

    Kay

    @WaterGirl:

    They could have avoided this whole issue had they put in “life OR HEALTH” of the mother.

    But they refuse, because they believe women are sneaky liars looking loopholes.

    Anytime you see this issue know that it could be fixed with two words “or health”

    Thats how extreme this is. It’s why the US is now a Right wing outlier internationally on women’s rights.

  57. 57.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    But they refuse, because they believe women are sneaky liars looking loopholes.

     
    Republican men remember all the girls that rejected them in high school.

  59. 59.

    Kay

    @WaterGirl:

    Physicians want to know what the line is between “life” and “health”

    There isn’t a clear line. Right wing lawyers insist they can invent one in law but it doesn’t exist in medicine, so they will fail. I can order a doctor to do anything – whether she can do it is another thing entirely. Law is not medicine. They’re not the same.

  61. 61.

    laura

    I’m listening to the Court’s live stream and am dipping in here to comment that Justice Alito remains a miserable shite-bag and continues to badger Solicitor General Prelogar. Christ, what an asshole.

  64. 64.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    When anti abortion voters are polled they want women criminally charged in abortion cases at 70 per cent.

    Anti abortion views don’t track with gender – they track with dislike and mistrust of women. It’s women who don’t like women.

  69. 69.

    Kay

    @laura:

    I get some pleasure out of the fact that he’s so miserable though. Just a bitter, resentful person. He reached his life goal of bossing people around and it’s just fucking ASHES in his mouth. No joy. Good.

  71. 71.

    WaterGirl

    @laura:

    I’m listening to the Court’s live stream and am dipping in here to comment that Justice Alito remains a miserable shite-bag and continues to badger Solicitor General Prelogar. Christ, what an asshole.

    YES.

  73. 73.

    cain

    @Almost Retired: but that’s their hubris. They can piss off the judge because the attorney believes they are going to rule for Idaho anyways so they think they can act how they want.

  74. 74.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Soprano2:

     I suspect they’ll do that through changing the legal definition of rape, not through actually ending rape.

    Yeah, no easier way to solve a problem than to define it out of existence.

  76. 76.

    oldgold

    @Baud:  True and in many cases, in particular, high profile ideological cases, I doubt the briefs have much, if any, influence on the Judges.

  77. 77.

    evodevo

    @Leto: OLD joke: A man whose English is a second language, is trying to explain why he doesn’t have a grandkid yet.  “My daughter is impregnable”, he says.  Noting the confused look on the other person’s face, he tries again: “She is inconceivable”.  No luck – other person still confused; man, with triumphant expression on his face, sure he has hit the right word, “She is unbearable!”

  79. 79.

    Kay

    @WaterGirl:

    it’s just stunning to me they don’t understand this- how it isn’t a clear line and it changes.
    I had a complicated delivery with my youngest. It went from completely normal to everyone running around yelling in 10 minutes. 45 minutes later everyone was fine again.
    They can write all the big stupid rules they want. It doesn’t work like that. Women’s bodies won’t follow state statutes. My blood pressure doesn’t listen to Justice Alitos pronouncements. Nature doesn’t care about lawyers.

  80. 80.

    WaterGirl

    Loathing for Supreme Court Justices:

    Alito
    Barrett
    Clarence Thomas
    Gorsuch
    Kavanaugh
    Roberts

    If you could replace 3 of them, which 3 would you pick, in what order?

  83. 83.

    PaulB

    @WaterGirl: Does federal law trump state law, or does it not Answering that does not seem hard.

    I’m pretty sure that the conservative justices will decide that the two laws are not in conflict, that there is just enough wiggle room in the Idaho law that the state can claim that it is, in fact, following the federal law.

    Yes, this is bullshit, and yes, this is contradicted by all of the available evidence, but the conservative justices on this court have long since proved to be ignorant of, and unconcerned with, reality.

  88. 88.

    JPL

    @WaterGirl: Alito, Thomas and Gorsuch.

    Alito and Thomas are white nationalists or wanna be white nationalists.   Gorsuch would rid us of all regulation is he could.

  90. 90.

    AM in NC

    @WaterGirl: Thomas (because you get rid of Ginny too), Alito (very close second), Gorsuch.   I think the other three are at least somewhat susceptible to norms, and would be mores if the super-freaks were off the Court.

  91. 91.

    schrodingers_cat

    I was reading about the leaders of the anti abortion movement and was surprised to find many women leading the charge. This is from a  2019 article from the Atlantic.

    But strong support from most white women, especially those who identify as evangelical Christians, has helped Republicans dominate local government in the states passing the most restrictive measures, from Alabama and Georgia to Kentucky and Missouri. In some of those states, polling shows that opposition to legal abortion is higher among white women than among white men

    Another one from NBC News

    It’s not just men: White conservative women have played key role in abortion policy changes this year.

    It isn’t just the men who are making these awful decisions on behalf of all women.

  92. 92.

    laura

    @Kay: but Kay, Idaho’s attorney has stated ‘As A Man’ that you could have been airlifted out of state for care, and as we all know, it is common to just roll off an examination table and scurry to the awaiting helicopter and fly away to immediate safety ….somewhere when you are bleeding out and your blood pressure has either spiked or crashed. Babby will always be fine even when babby comes and it’s momma has died. \\

    Rage is all I’m feeling- seething white-hot rage in the face of disdainful misogyny.

  94. 94.

    jimmiraybob

    “Should a state law be able to trump a federal law? ”

    When the colonies/territories signed onto the Union they accepted that the US Constitution was the “supreme law of the land”  (really, it says so in easy to read print).  Presumably this covers federal law as long as it is consistent with constitutional language, principles and precedent.

    I’m not a constitutional expert or lawyer but it seems fairly straight forward to me.

    However, we are apparently in a Trump/MAGA/GOP new-confederacy led “national divorce” – essentially secession without the guns (so far).  And if the Alito court can find a 16th or 17th century argument against the plain language of the constitution then I’m guessing that states-rights and state law will win out.

    If the 1950s-60s civil rights struggle can lend anything to the discussion, it might take federal troops and federalized national guard to restore constitutional order and equal protections to all citizens.

    Anybody else find it stunning that the former Party of Lincoln has transformed to the Anti-Party of Lincoln?

  96. 96.

    narya

    @WaterGirl: Gorsuch, Alito, Kavanaugh, in that order. I loathe Thomas (and Ginny), but getting rid of the other three would isolate Thomas. Gorsuch because he’s trying to avenge his mother and remove all regulation; Alito because he’s vile; and Kavanaugh because I think he’s a Gorsuch in waiting (and has a massively inflated opinion of himself, and I think he’s still corrupt).

  104. 104.

    gwangung

    @Kay: They have a hard time understanding their legal world doesn’t map onto the real world. There’s a mismatch there they ignore. You can see that clearly in their decision on flood waters, where their legal definitions do not fit the real world at all. And the conservative position on teaching creationism show that they do not accept that the real world trumps their legal construction of reality.

  106. 106.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: It’s hard for others to believe, but a lot of conservative women don’t trust other women, especially ones who are liberal. My mother was one of them.

  107. 107.

    Baud

    @jimmiraybob:

    Anybody else find it stunning that the former Party of Lincoln has transformed to the Anti-Party of Lincoln?

     
    No more stunning than the Dems turning from a white populist party to the party of civil rights.

  108. 108.

    oldgold

    @WaterGirl:

    I would get of Alito, Gorsuch and Thomas.

    Back when Sandra Day O’Connor stepped down, like most liberals, I was incensed that W. nominated Harriet Miers and celebrated when her name was withdrawn.  That led to Alito.  In hindsight, I think Harriet Miers would have been better.

  110. 110.

    CaseyL

    Federal law has generally always superseded state law.

    The Federalist Society hates that, since they want to go back to at least the Articles of Confederation, which were what we had before the Constitution. And SCOTUS is now a Federalist Society court.

    SCOTUS will rule against EMTALA. Bet on it. But it will be about more than abortion: it will be the wedge they use to get rid of Constitutional/Federal supremacy in all areas.

  111. 111.

    Trollhattan

    @WaterGirl:

    This is the Grim Reaper’s job and senator, I’m no Grim Reaper.

    Kennedy, the last conservative who walked out of the court on his own power, still leaves unexplored entanglements between his son and Deutschebank in his wake. The rest of that lot take lifetime employment as SOP.

  114. 114.

    Baud

    All you people have forgotten about what Eve did. We all could have been pantless in Paradise.

  115. 115.

    JPL

    @CaseyL:  Gorsuch, Alito and Thomas want to outlaw EMTALA because it is regulatory.   So far, the only one questioning Idaho law has been Barrett.

  117. 117.

    JPL

    Kavanaugh seems to feel the law applies only to the poor and not necessarily women.    hmmm

  121. 121.

    laura

    I’m trying to recall any case that the Supreme Court has taken up that applies solely to men and has the practical effect of intending to harm men’s health or has the unintended consequence of harming just men. I cannot recall any such action. Anyone else have such recollection?

  122. 122.

    Anonymous At Work

    Not gonna relish going into transcript but did anyone go to the “Your state now lacks ob/gyns because of shit like this” line of argument?  Idaho can say it respects doctors but I can also say I am the true heir of Napoleon.

    Idaho claiming it is not interfering in medical judgements when it subjects those judgements to second-guessing by the DA, State AG, state licensing board, and every private citizen who can scrap together a laughable Cause of Action is just begging for a smackdown in court.

  124. 124.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay: The conventional wisdom is that “or health” is the same thing as no abortion ban at all. And, really, it is. They just don’t quite get the implications of that– they think it’s a trick.

  125. 125.

    jimmiraybob

    @Baud: ​
     
    Yes, things do change but I’m guessing that the R Party is still using the “Party of Lincoln” claim.

  126. 126.

    Mousebumples

    From bsky – if you click through on some links, you may need a login…

    bsky.app/profile/ratelimitexceeder.bsky.social/post/3kqv6bcg5uc2q

    I am not at all predicting this, but ACB going from child of Catholic nutcases to resistance winemom would in fact be very funny.

     

    bsky.app/profile/markshore.bsky.social/post/3kqv6gnnzdm2f

    It’s fun to dream

    Coney Barrett staring at Alito, taking a deep breath, and saying very slowly and clearly, “will you please, just once in your life, Shut Up.”

     

    bsky.app/profile/docrevan.xyz/post/3kqv6mqyvnk2p

    She strikes me as a right wing nut job but not stupid (which also applies to Gorsuch), while Alito and Thomas are both.

    Kavanaugh is more frat bro dumb which is a different category.

    Specifically I think ACB and Gorsuch realize they’re the dog who caught the car.

    Alito and Thomas think they can eat the car.

     

    bsky.app/profile/kellybdevoe.bsky.social/post/3kqv6wxee3z2d

    Yeah ACB is just a sheltered nerd who hasn’t had to experience ugly shit. Gorsuch I sense an in

    The other two live to hurt women

    Kavanaugh I have no idea. I think he’s the easily peer pressured Justice

  127. 127.

    JPL

    @rikyrah:  Kavanaugh brought up why EMTALA exists and that was a time when they were doing patient dumping.   He didn’t seem to mention that it could apply to all.

    I found what he was saying confusing.

    Maybe a legal eagle will weigh in.

  128. 128.

    rikyrah

    @WaterGirl:

    Alito
    Barrett
    Clarence Thomas
    Gorsuch
    Kavanaugh
    Roberts

    If you could replace 3 of them, which 3 would you pick, in what order?

     

    Thomas – as a Black woman, it still hurts my heart that this leave it on the nighstand HO Minstrel replaced Thurgood Marshall.

    Barrett – she can be replaced by the first Native or Asian woman on the Court. Take her Handmaids Tale back to whereever the hell she came from. She is almost as offensive a successor to RBG as Thomas is to Marshall.

     

    Alito – on General Principle.

  129. 129.

    Jinchi

    Strategically, I think the smart move by Democrats is to seriously and vocally discuss reforming the judicial system, particularly ending lifetime appointments and expanding the SC.

    Fear of losing their power and status is the only thing that has given pause to the justices. They’re testing to see how far they can push their agenda before it breaks. We should make it clear that they’re already well past that point.

  130. 130.

    Matt McIrvin

    @laura: Rostker v. Goldberg, 1981, in which they ruled it was constitutional to draft only men into military service. But the effect is theoretical since there was no active draft at the time and has not been since then.

  132. 132.

    CaseyL

    @Jinchi: That only works if we have, not just a majority in the Senate, but a 60-seat majority in the Senate.  If that happens, I will personally ring in the Jubilee

    Re Gorsuch: I am genuinely torn on him. On the one hand, he shouldn’t be on the Court at all: Garland should.  Plus he’s a bog-standard corrupt RWer.  However, he is a vigorous and effective proponent for respecting Indian Law*, which is not only astonishing (given his background) but rare.  So he gets props for that.

    *Native Americans themselves call it that.

  133. 133.

    Mousebumples

    Also seeing screenshots of the WashPo live blog that seem to indicate the Biden admin liked Barrett’s questions. No sub, but FYI if anyone wants to cross post.

  134. 134.

    rikyrah

    @Anonymous At Work:

    Just want to remind people:

    Idaho is fast becoming a Maternity Desert, with the numbers of working OB-GYN’s for the state dwindling fast.

    They didn’t want the inconvenience of trying to explain how their hateful laws affect Maternal Mortality..

     

    SO THEY STOPPED RECORDING THE STATISTICS FOR MATERNAL MORTALITY IN IDAHO.

  135. 135.

    cmorenc

    @Kay:

    Yup. We should bring an abortion case a month. Let the religious fundies on that court spend their entire tenure dealing with icky, yucky women’s health. Alito would rather you bleed out in the bathroom than have to think about women as people. We need a ruling on everything.

    Keep in mind that since it takes the + vote of 4 justices for SCOTUS to even agree to take a case rather than decline it, the 6 RW justices can effectively duck any abortion-related case this super-majority doesn’t want to consider.  Any dissents written by the other 3 about declined SCOTUS review won’t have nearly the same public impact or publicity as cases that do get argued before the full court.

  138. 138.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    @Soprano2:

    Yup. We should bring an abortion case a month. Let the religious fundies on that court spend their entire tenure dealing with icky, yucky women’s health. Alito would rather you bleed out in the bathroom than have to think about women as people. We need a ruling on everything.

     

    This works for me.

  139. 139.

    cmorenc

    @CaseyL:

    @Jinchi: That only works if we have, not just a majority in the Senate, but a 60-seat majority in the Senate.  If that happens, I will personally ring in the Jubilee.

    The two most recent periods when Ds did come very close to attaining a 60-seat majority both immediately preceded “red wave” elections;

    1992: Ds had 57-43 majority (but narrowly lost a Ga runoff where they would have had 58 had they won)
    2008: Ds briefly had an effective 60-seat majority (including 2 independents who caucused with the Ds) but then Ted Kennedy died and R Scott Brown won the 2010 special election, reducing the majority to 59 (with the traitorous snake Joe Lieberman technically among the 59) – and then the Nov 2010 elections reduced the D majority to 51-47 (with two independents caucusing with the Ds, making the majority effectively 53-47).  However, the red Tsunami over in US House elections (flipped the house from 256-179 D to 242 – 193 R) effectively negated the remaining narrower D Senate majority.

  140. 140.

    WaterGirl

    For the first 15 minutes I felt hope.  The next 90 or so were filled with rage.  Now I’ve moved on to tears of rage and sadness.

  141. 141.

    StringOnAStick

    @JPL: Its not true if there’s no data.  Those dead mothers just evaporate from the planet and according to the fundies, their souls fly straight to the heart of their Lord. Win win!

  144. 144.

    CaseyL

    @cmorenc: That was also when the Democratic caucus still included a lot of ConservaDems (Baucus, Lieberman, Manchin, plus more whose names don’t remember) who thwarted many liberal pieces of legislation.

    Also famously, that 60-seat majority was only actually in existance for, IIRC, 6 months – because Norm Coleman kept litigating his loss to Al Franken, so Franken wasn’t seated for quite a long time.

  146. 146.

    StringOnAStick

    I’m going outside to break concrete with a sledgehammer.  It will be more productive than watching this play out and I can imagine faces on what I’m hitting.  After this crap, it will be easy to imagine the 6 fundy justices as my targets.

  147. 147.

    JPL

    We have returned to forcing a female carry a fetus to term that is not viable.    I can’t imagine giving birth to a child  that is going to choke to death after birth.   They legalized torture.

  148. 148.

    jimmiraybob

    @StringOnAStick: ​
      “Those dead mothers just evaporate from the planet and according to the fundies, their souls fly straight to the heart of their Lord.”
    I don’t think that they would necessarily be so lenient. Most “fundies” would likely just assign them to the warmer realm because “harlot.”

  151. 151.

    sxjames

    @JPL:

    A quick google search shows that Idaho has reestablished its Maternal Mortality Review Committee, this time under the states Board of Medicine, rather than the states dept. of Health and Welfare.  Apparently Idaho continued  to gather statistics, but did not review or analysis them.  Link to the article from the blog “Idaho Reports” is below.

    blog.idahoreports.idahoptv.org/2024/02/05/house-committee-passes-bill-to-re-establish-maternal-morta…

    Read the article. Warning: The *reasons* these right wing assholes originally sunset the panel  is absolutely…rage inducing.

  154. 154.

    sdhays

    @Baud: No, no. They haven’t ended rape yet. Governor Abbot has a plan to end rape that he’ll be releasing in a week or two. He’s planning to release it with Trump’s “Better Than Obamacare” plan.

  155. 155.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Baud:

    Oral argument almost never changes a judge’s mind at the appellate level. They’ve read the briefs.

    Everything in my years of practice tells me this is true. The question is, why do we still have oral arguments, especially at the intermediate appellate level?

    It is said that judges and justices lobby each other at oral argument. Can’t they do that in conference or in their chambers?

  157. 157.

    jimmiraybob

    Has any justice or counsel made reference to the 14th Amendment?

    “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

    Seems relevant.

  158. 158.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    She strikes me as a right wing nut job but not stupid (which also applies to Gorsuch), while Alito and Thomas are both.
    Kavanaugh is more frat bro dumb which is a different category.
    Specifically I think ACB and Gorsuch realize they’re the dog who caught the car.
    Alito and Thomas think they can eat the car.

    Replace in order:
    Uncle Clarence
    Alito
    Throw a dart at a board with a photo of each of the other 4 for the pick, they’re all abhorrent in their own way. I probably personally despise Gorsuch than the others primarily b/c of his mother. I remember her career helping to destroy this country all-too-well. Another odious person brought to us by the Ronald Fucking Reagan (mal)Administration.

  159. 159.

    Trollhattan

    What would happen if health insurance companies stopped writing policies for women, in forced birth states? There are bottom lines to protect here.

    I presume a lot of these states have also declined ACA participation, for the perfect healthcare storm.

  162. 162.

    Anonymous At Work

    @rikyrah: Thank you.  Good reminder.  They also have fewer air-flight resources, like for transporting people hurt in wilderness areas, because they have to airlift pregnant women to Colorado or Washington or Oregon.  So:

    IDAHO IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH, EVEN IF YOU ARE A WHITE MALE.

  163. 163.

    pieceofpeace

    @Old Man Shadow:

    Long, long time ago my mother was in surgery to remove a ‘tumor’ which turned out to be a pregnancy, and only 1 could be saved.  This was in a well-established religiously-owned hospital and they wanted to save the baby.  With 2 children at home, my dad said no, save the mother, and his choice prevailed.

    This was due to the Dr.’s presumption(with what he could know) that it was a tumor.  In longtime red Idaho, they at least gave/respected the power to determine outcome with family-first.

  164. 164.

    lowtechcyclist

    @WaterGirl:

    Alito first, due to general awfulness.
    Roberts second, to give Biden the opportunity to pick a new CJ. Also he managed to put a veneer of respectability on too many awful decisions.

    Tough choice for #3. Not Thomas, he’s a heart attack waiting to happen. Of the other 3, I’ll spin the wheel and it comes up Kavanaugh.

  166. 166.

    piratedan

    when it comes to restructuring the court, I would take out Gorsuch, Kavanagh and Barrett.

    My reasoning is pure vindictiveness.  Let those old fuckers sit there and watch each fucking case be evaluated on its merits in regards to law instead of their fantasyland of Conservative Utopia.  A year or two of that and we can watch them code out in apoplexy.

  167. 167.

    Miss Bianca

    @jimmiraybob:

    Anybody else find it stunning that the former Party of Lincoln has transformed to the Anti-Party of Lincoln?

    Well, *I* don’t, but a friend of mine who’s still a Republican (yes, I still have some) does. We were having a little chat about that very thing just a few days ago.

  169. 169.

    jimmiraybob

    @Miss Bianca: ​
     
    I’ve been saying since the beginning or the Trump era that any Republican that can’t vote for Trump and won’t vote for Biden should write in Abe Lincoln to send a message.

  170. 170.

    Ruckus

    @New Deal democrat:

    We are in a whole new era.

    Actually some are attempting to go backasswards as fast as they possibly can. They do not want a new era, they want to return to the days when we valued the man’s children and literally screw the woman in any way possible, figuratively and actually. And no it’s not just men. It’s disgusting. It was disgusting generations ago and it is disgusting today. (I’m using disgusting because every other word I can think of is considered beyond swearing) And I’m a man. I can’t imagine how most women feel. I served in this countries military, in concept to protect our way of life, not in any way servitude. And yes I know the scroll says all men are created equal, but how long did this country violate it’s own founding statement “All men are created equal” because some men have darker skin? The basis of the country that I volunteered to serve and protect all citizens only includes half the population? Just because the poor bastards look like me?

    I believe that piece of paper states that all men (meaning humans) are created equal. So just because they don’t look like me that is invalid? Pompous arrogance does not make anyone look or be better. It does the exact opposite.

  173. 173.

    JPL

    @CaseyL:  I fear you are right.   EMTALA will be weakened enough that it is no longer recognizable.  It will no longer be enforceable.

  176. 176.

    wjca

    @Soprano2: If the court allows this, pregnant people aren’t safe in Idaho or any other state that does this.

    I’m thinking a significant number of them will just leave.  (Not to mention families with daughters.)  And not come back. Leaving those states with a distinct shortage of potential wives — think incels on steroids.

    The Chinese can give some experience info on how a serious shortage of women can impact a country.  Doesn’t really matter if you get there via female infanticide or just driving women away.  But perhaps these states wish to emulate China….

  179. 179.

    Ruckus

    @Betty Cracker:

    His concept isn’t to kill them it’s to make them beneath him in the accepted (and legal) social order. He doesn’t want to get rid of them he wants them to be (totally) subservient. Second or likely lower class humans. He wants to be in the ruling class, not in the equal class. He (and his kind) are arguing for superiority. Superiority that they do not have, should not have, all because American english as written and spoken in our founding documents use the word MEN. Look at England. Sure the Queen or King come from blood lines going back centuries, the upper ruling class, not the hoi polloi, but we changed that to rid the US of a ruling class, that all men are equal. Some just have sallowed the very mistaken idea/concept that the words men or all men in our founding documents means male humans, not ALL humans. sex, age, proclivities, which is what it really means. You know they are wrong, I know, most of us know, but they think they are making this a better country by limiting those that don’t look, think and act like them to lower class distinction.

    Think how different we would be if our founding documents used the words all humans rather than all men.

  180. 180.

    wjca

    @Baud: Didn’t you hear? Red states ended rape.

    Actually pretty easy.  Just change the law so nothing gets that label.  (Maybe keep it for homosexual cases, though.  Just in case.)

    EDT Not surprisingly, someone (Soprano2 in this case) got there already.

  181. 181.

    Attempted Chemistry

    Alito. The worst, both as a justice and a human. He wants to do us harm and for us to praise him for doing it.

    Thomas: slightly less terrible, because his bizarre principles occasionally align with the side of the angels. Still terrible, venal, corrupt.

    Gorsuch: wants to dismantle administrative state. The fact that he is non-terrible on Native issues does not make up for everything else.

    I think the rest of the court goes: Kavanaugh, ACB, Roberts, big space, Kagan, Sotomayor, KBJ.

  182. 182.

    Captain C

    @WaterGirl: The three youngest.  I would find it highly amusing to see Thomas and Alito have to spend their declining days on a 6-3 minority.

  184. 184.

    RaflW

    @wjca: We’re already getting lots of moaning from conservatives that ‘liberal women’ won’t date them (or won’t date their snowflake sons).

    It is, of course, absolutely off limits to discuss the notion that conservative men could moderate their right wing views and voting habits even a smidge to make themselves less unattractive to thoughtful women.

  186. 186.

    Burnspbesq

    Alito has hated women ever since the curse of coeducation descended upon his beloved Princeton.

  187. 187.

    cain

    @Burnspbesq:

    Umm, I thought the Supremacy Clause was part of the Constitution.

    They  have altered the deal – pray they don’t alter it any further.

  189. 189.

    Jinchi

    @CaseyL: That only works if we have, not just a majority in the Senate, but a 60-seat majority in the Senate.

    It takes 60 seats to get Judicial reform passed, not to start talking about it. The point of bringing it up at all is to put them on notice that their credibility is shot. People no longer recognize them as a non-partisan and unbiased institution that should have the final word on the meaning of the American law.

    Until Dobbs, Democratic politicians by and large accepted the legitimacy of the institution, even with all it’s flaws. That gave justices like Alito, Thomas and Roberts a sense of safety to do whatever they wanted without regard for public opinion.

  190. 190.

    Ruckus

    @WaterGirl:

    I can only pick 3?

    That’s not fair, they all suck. OK sure some suck more than others but really it’s just that they all suck at different times. The other thing I’d like to see is a maximum time of service and possibly age. First, many people, especially those with power have that power go to their heads as if it represents their greatness, even if they do not say it out loud. Now to make it reasonable and workable I’d bet that time has to be more than other offices, say at least 3 times president so a minimum 12 yrs and I’d say a maximum of 20. I’m thinking 15-16 yrs. Next age. As an old fart my own self, who lives in an apartment complex that one has to be over 55 to rent and whose oldest resident is 97 yrs old that there should be a maximum age as well. It gets harder and harder to see the future, the closer one gets to it. (think about it) Yep that’s right, as one’s future gets shorter and shorter, even though one doesn’t normally know how long or short that future is, being reasonable, being open minded, can easily change as one gets farther along in senioritis (which is not just a high school issue)

  191. 191.

    Belafon

    @CaseyL:

    That only works if we have, not just a majority in the Senate, but a 60-seat majority in the Senate.

    The 60 seat majority is only a rule if a majority of the Senate wants to keep it a rule.

  193. 193.

    brantl

    @Jinchi: Alito once wrote a minority opinion that it was OK to shoot a 140 lb. pursesnatcher in the back, if he’s fleeing.

  194. 194.

    artem1s

    @Soprano2: ​ 

    EMATLA was passed to keep hospitals from dumping poor patients,

    and Blacks, and Jews, and Mexican’s, and, and, and. Lots of private hospitals were established in the early 1900’s to keep certain people out. Or to serve populations that were legally banned from White or Protestant hospitals. Prior to EMATLA hospitals often hid their emergency room entrances (or had no emergency rooms) just so they wouldn’t have to deal with undesirable walk ups. There are a lot of for profit hospitals that want to see go EMATLA go so they can legally discriminate against anyone they want-NIMBY.

  195. 195.

    Jinchi

    @brantl: ​
      Gorsuch once ruled that a trucker could be fired for abandoning his trailer to avoid freezing to death.

  196. 196.

    brantl

    @Jinchi:  I had thought Alito had reached peak dick in the opinion I quoted, now I’m torn. No, on second thought, I’m not; dead’s worse than fired.

  197. 197.

    Citizen Alan

    @Soprano2:  I remember being shocked in law school when the woman who ran career services at Ole Miss Law (and who I knew to be very liberal) was livid with anger at Hillary because she didn’t divorce Bill. She seemed more angry at that than she was about Bill cheating on her in the first place.

  198. 198.

    Citizen Alan

    @oldgold: My recollection is that Dems were secretly thrilled with the Miers nomination and that it was conservatives who forced her withdrawal because they were angry that Bush was wasting one of “their” SCOTUS slots on a patronage appointment.

  200. 200.

    Citizen Alan

    @rikyrah:  Roberts, then Thomas & Alito. Roberts is Chief Justice, and most people underestimate how much power CJ has in a close court (among other things, he gets to pick who writes the first draft). Thomas and Alito are equal in their absolute evil. We could survive the others so long as they were in the minority.

  203. 203.

    Juju

    @brantl: He also wrote a minority opinion that it was ok to strip search a mother and her 10 year old daughter as part of a search warrant.  He hates women.

  204. 204.

    Citizen Alan

    @Burnspbesq: I genuinely wonder about the relationship between Alito and Sotomayor behind closed doors. He was on the student org that opposed allowing women into Yale Law. She, IIRC, was in one of the first classes that allowed women. I would assume they loathe each other, but RBG inexplicably was friends with Scalia so who knows.

  207. 207.

    sdhays

    @WaterGirl: First In, Last Out:

    ACB
    Kavanaugh
    Gorsuch

    Why? Because we’re talking about a fantasy – we can hypnotize any three we want to just go away, no questions asked? That gives us 3 more good justices, and the conservatives are left with their old guard, the Bush (father and son) appointees who will leave feet first in a few years. Drain their “young” Trump bench

    ETA: They’re all awful Witch Law “Justices”; there’s no point in getting into their relative awfulness unless you’re hoping for them to accidentally vote correctly on a particular case. If we’re talking about taking any off the court, best to do it strategically so that they collectively become less relevant.

  208. 208.

    JanieM

    @Citizen Alan: Do you have links for any of this? Hillary Clinton is YLS ’73, Sotomayor is ’79.  This timetable says women were first officially admitted in 1919. I was a grad student from ’72 to ’75 (exactly overlapping Alito, though I didn’t know him) and I had good friends, including several women, in the law school.

  209. 209.

    Juju

    @JanieM: Alito went to Princeton for undergraduate school. Princeton didn’t admit women undergrads until 1969.

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