Congrats to Senator Bernie Sanders for his trio of yoooodge caucus victories yesterday! It’ll be interesting to see how the primary shakes out in places like Pennsylvania and New York, the latter of which Sanders and Clinton can both plausibly claim as home turf.
Interesting piece at TPM from Josh Marshall about the likelihood that women voters will hand Trump a crushing defeat if he’s the nominee. I think Marshall is onto something.
Nothing is certain in this wild and weird election year. But bone-deep misogyny is one of the few things Trump has been consistent about throughout his career. And if it turns out that a woman is all that stands between him and the ultimate power-grab, I don’t think he has the discipline to avoid going full-blown sexist pig. It’s his nature.
Anyhoo. Happy Easter to those who celebrate it. Did you get anything good in your baskets?
Open thread!
debbie
I hope the sugar in the chocolates and jelly beans mitigates any bitterness about to be expressed in this thread.
HIllary’s welcome to pivot to the national election, but she better be careful to pay attention to the voters still supporting Bernie.
That’s it for me.
BruceFromOhio
Dark chocolate bunnies on a motorcycle! Yum!
I look forward to voting for Clinton/Sanders in November.
BillinGlendaleCA
No, but I’m awake at this Gawd-forsaken hour(7am). I’m planning on heading out of a picture takin’ tour(retake the IR pics at Franklin Canyon, visit an old Nike site on a hill above the valley and The Japanese Garden in the Supulveda basin(if they’re open)); if the damn sun ever comes out.
Glidwrith
About to unleash the dragonets in search of eggs and bunnies. There is a trail of clues for the bunnies – it went over great last year.
benw
Thanks in advance, ladies! You rock.
The, uh, Easter bunny made sure some Reese’s miniatures got into the kids’ baskets this year.
Elizabelle
I don’t think women will vote for Ted Cruz, Saviour of the Republican Party (TM), either.
Hope a meme starts: Women, and Men who Like and Respect Women, Vote for Hillary.
And I’d be great with Clinton/Sanders. No idea what the Senator from Vermont thinks of that prospect, but anything that can get Team Dem over the finish line.
Elizabelle
Again, I love the illustration, Betty.
And the Butter Lamb was more emotive than last year’s.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
I still can’t imagine the Donald making it to November, and it’s hard to imagine him even making it through the convention. Watching him careen around from day to day is like watching a gyro lose its centripetal force. No human should be the color he is, and its not all makeup. He’s a cauldron of bubbling bile, his nature knows no moderation in temperament, and something’s gonna give internally – physically, mentally, or both. He’s totally not built for this.
cmorenc
@debbie:
Even though Clinton is still overwhelmingly likely to end up as the democratic nominee – there is no need for her to “pivot” her focus to the general election, especially since the GOP competition will be engaged in fierce intra-party warfare against itself for at least a couple more months, and possibly through their convention late this summer. When the GOP is busy shooting itself in not just the foot, but the head, it would be wise to stay out of their way and focus instead on constructively, respectfully engaging the portion of the democratic base who are enthusiastic about Bernie, fertilizing the ground for them to eventually come over and enthusiastically support her once she is the nominee.
JGabriel
Betty Cracker @ Top:
True, and I’ll probably be voting for Bernie in the NY primary, but I suspect Clinton has most likely got it locked up. As you say, they can both plausibly claim home state status, but Clinton is part of the NY Democratic machine – which is supporting her pretty strongly – and Bernie is not.
BillinGlendaleCA
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I saw that in his session with the NYT editorial board, he said we shouldn’t take war with China off the table. That Trump, he nuts.
low-tech cyclist
I got this resurrected Messiah guy. What am I supposed to do with him? I wanted a (dark) chocolate bunny.
Major Major Major Major
Sanders is being an ass again. The super delegate nonsense is back (again), and while there’s nothing wrong with trying to win, his team’s strategy (if the reports are correct) for the Northeast is to be a dick. Again, winning is great!, but so is party unity. Shades of Hillary 2008. Bleh.
LAO
I saw the greatest protest poster held by a woman in her late 60s — early 70s on Twitter, I wish I could find if again. Her sign read, “I didn’t come from your rib, you came from my vagina.”
Happy Easter to all those who celebrate.
debbie
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Which makes him the perfect candidate of the GOP.
Germy
OT
I keep seeing these tv commercials for something called five second fix. It’s not a glue, but you dab it on and then shine a blue light on it (commercial special effects cause a blue glow and a sound effect) and they say it creates a strong enough bond to fix a trailer hitch. They show a lady repairing her glasses with it, a guy fixing a car.
But here’s my question: If it needs the light to cause the bond, how will it work on anything that isn’t transparent? If you try to glue two objects together how will the light reach the “glue”?
I’m fascinated with these “as seen on TV” products, because from what I’ve read, they are absolutely useless, despite the media saturation.
BillinGlendaleCA
@JGabriel: The one poll that I’ve seen out of New Yawk had her up by 24 and one for CA had her up by 10.
OzarkHillbilly
@BillinGlendaleCA: I know all about making deals! We’ll bomb them into a better trade deal!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
One of the reporters from Boston I follow on twitter said something like he was reading the transcript through a slit in his fingers, covering his eyes in dismay and horror. I haven’t brought myself to do it yet, because I like to sleep at night.
debbie
@cmorenc:
Except that she has said she wanted to and she has begun to.
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly: Pretty much, and using nukes. Smoke’m if you got’m.
Keith G
I had lunch with a long time friend yesterday. She is a 30-something African American female who is a Sanders supporters and she is surprised that I am not, given my past political leanings.
I explained it to her as best as I could, thusly: I’ve always been a fan of Hillary Clinton even if there were times when I didn’t agree with her. And importantly now, I have a pretty good idea of what her presidency will look like. I have a pretty good idea of what the ceiling of her accomplishments will be and a good idea of what the floor of her disappointment will be. With Bernie Sanders I know none of those important things. And right now, I’m not in the mood to buy a pig in a poke.
And, my friend is not one of those largely mythical, I imagine, Bernie supporters who would disdain from voting for Hillary in the autumn .
BTW, the fish and chips were awesome.
magurakurin
@Major Major Major Major: Unfortunately for Senator Sanders he won’t be running against Rahm Emanuel in New York like he was able to do in Illinois. And the Wall Street stuff probably isn’t as strong, you know, on Wall Street.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s St. Bernie for ya. Since Tad’s company has been paid over $1M since January to manage the campaign, expect to hear all kinds of unicorn stories about paths to the nomination, and the corrupting influence of money in politics – but only the evil Hillary’s money of course.
ETA: The video clip of Sanders pushing Jane aside at the podium from his speech last night just confirms all the issues I have with the guy – let me just say, if he came within 5 feet of me with that wagging finger/waving hand thing he does, he’d fucking lose it.
Shell
Don’t forget us here in New Jersey. For the first time in a while, our primary might mean something.
BillinGlendaleCA
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I’ve not read it either, but I did read his session with the WP editorial board, cringe worthy.
liberal
Thanks, Obama!
liberal
@Keith G: Sanders has a pretty long record in Congress.
HRC has a very long record as a neoliberal and a hawk.
magurakurin
@Shell: Depending on how well she does or doesn’t do in New York and the Acela Corridor, you folks might put her over the top on the night of the 7th, since your polls will close much earlier than CA.
magurakurin
@liberal: okay, thanks, you reminded us for today. Your work is done now. See you tomorrow.
Matt McIrvin
@JGabriel: Clinton has big leads in the polling in all the remaining Northeastern/Mid-Atlantic primaries, with the possible exception of Rhode Island.
If I were Bernie’s campaign manager I’d put everything on a Hail Mary in California right now. He’s still behind there, but by a modest and narrowing margin, and it’s 500+ delegates on the very last day of voting, so a miracle where he takes a substantial majority is barely conceivable. He’d probably still need to make some kind of unlikely case to the superdelegates to switch to him because he has The Big Mo, is more electable or whatever, but taking California couldn’t hurt.
Ultraviolet Thunder
.@Major Major Major Major:
How much party unity do you expect from the guy who spent his career on the outside, occasionally attacking the 2-party system, and just joined?
Major Major Major Major
@Matt McIrvin: if I were Bernie’s campaign manager I’d be unrealistically raising expectations for *all* of the remaining states while hoovering up and pocketing all the campaign funds I could.
Hey, wait, I’d make a great campaign manager for Bernie apparently.
liberal
@Elizabelle: billmon tweeted or retweeted what the electoral map would look like if Trump gets zero votes from women.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
This year’s had a nose and mouth. Last year it was all about the eyes.
dogwood
It seems that Hillary pivoting to the general happened awhile back. She’s turned her attention to Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. Why this is offensive to Bernie supporters is beyond me.
Trentrunner
In a televised debate between Hillary and Trump, how long before Trump makes the jerk-off hand gesture while Clinton speaks?
Germy
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/03/walker-pulls-early-april-fools-prank
liberal
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: at this point it’s getting unlikely he won’t be the nominee. The whole thing is so full of win, from how the right prepared the ground for him to how the other candidates’ refusal to agree on a single candidate against him mirrors rightwing ignorance of coordination and collective action problems.
I only wish they make the convention open carry.
Major Major Major Major
@Ultraviolet Thunder: Touche. He’s acting like he’s been a democrat about as long as the 18-year-olds who caucus for him.
NOTE: not attacking Bernie supporters, just being quippy. I know that’s far from the only demographic. Those of you with good humor and an ability to articulate an argument in less than four paragraphs and five footnotes are awesome ??????
Germy
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/03/britons-cant-stop-laughing-after-watching
Germy
@Trentrunner: I honestly expected him to do that at one of the GOP debates. Or maybe in response to one of Meghan’s questions…
Matt McIrvin
@Germy: My daughter harangued us into getting her a Snackeez, which is a plastic cup with a small snack container that nests in the top, with a drinking straw that pokes through a channel in the snack container, so you can have your drink and your snack from the same object.
As you might imagine, this thing has no great utility of any kind; it’s the sort of combination product where the act of combining the two things mostly makes it worse at either one. But it was advertised in saturation-bombed commercials on children’s television, so getting one was the way to stop the begging.
Major Major Major Major
One of my Facebook friends (a grown-ass man, mid 40s I think) just told me I “like to suck Hillary’s cock” and “your just too young to have a clue”, so, I retract my criticism of Bernie-supporting assholes who are long-winded and can spell.
ETA: “Hillary is a rapist corporate whore. Fuck her and fuck you.”
I sent him to the Amazon page for How To Win Friends And Influence People
dogwood
DC and Maryland vote at the end, and I expect those will be tough contests for Sanders.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Germy: I have found a handful of useful As Seen on TV products. OxyClean and the Vidalia Chopper started out as infomercials, and you’ll only pry my chopper from my cold dead hands. And there was a drill attachment for cleaning out dryer vents. Going way back, I think the mouli-julienne was marketed here similarly. I’ve been looking for a replacement for mine for years.
Villago Delenda Est
@srv: So the color of the sky in your world is paisley?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@liberal:
I picture the entire GOP as the front seat passenger in a car with the doors sealed shut driven by Trump with his foot strapped to the floored accelerator heading for a yuuuge brick wall. No escape.
magurakurin
@Major Major Major Major: I like his list of demands for his endorsement he gave to Cenk Uygur. Yeah, pretty sure that’s not actually how it works. The first thing that popped into my mind was Michael Corleone “I can give you my answer now, if you like Senator. My offer is this…nothing.” But Hillary Clinton is a much better person than me so she will listen closely to Senator Sanders. Don’t think she’s gonna start pushing for single payer after the discussion though. Pretty sure that’s what the voting is deciding on…the policy proposals of the candidates.
PaulWartenberg2016
Did anyone see Nate Silver’s tweet about what the Electoral results would look like if the number of Women voters who hated Trump translated into real votes?
The whole map was Blue.
Also, blog flogging my latest: The Two Legacies of Barack Obama
marduk
@debbie: Oh god no. How could she be so tone deaf?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Major Major Major Major:
My entire twitter feed last night was a Berniebro cesspool of racist and sexist comments. That’s quite the revolution he’s got going on there. My attitude at this point is, the fish rots from the head.
I guess now I understand why after all of the articles written about Bernie by the people who’ve worked with him in DC and VT, not one person has said that he’s a nice person. Apparently he’s awful to his staff.
lamh36
Watching Superman II on SyFy. I’m def biased, but Christopher Reeves really was great at Superman/Clark.
Chris Reeves had a way of making himself seem taller as Superman. Dude literally found a way to slump as Clark Kent. So that when he took off the glasses, he just straightened up that spine…and bam…Superman even without the cape…
PERFECT ACTING. More than just striking the right pose or just tilting his head the right way
magurakurin
@dogwood: They will be tough for him and DC is indeed last, but MD votes on April 26 with PA, DE, CT, and RI. More than likely that will be a tough night for the Sanders camp.
Roger Moore
@Germy:
It sounds like a photo-initiated polymerization. Basically, they have a mixture of monomers, some kind of free radical inhibitor, and a free radical initiator. Some polymers use a heat based initiator, but this one is light (probably actually UV) initiated. The inhibitor keeps low levels of naturally generated free radicals from causing it to polymerize while it’s still in the container, but there’s enough of the initiator to overwhelm the inhibitor if you trigger it.
My best guess is that there are one or both two things going on:
1) The glue itself is transparent and probably transmits some light deeper inside by total internal reflection, so you only need to shine the light onto the outside.
2) You can generate enough free radicals at the surface to trigger the polymerization deeper into the mix.
Either way, it will probably work OK as long as the area you’re trying to fix doesn’t go too far from the surface areas the light can reach.
Zinsky
@Major Major Major Major: I think I would “unfriend” that loser, pronto! It really is amazing how much hatred and vitriol there is on the right toward Hillary. They think of her as a female Satan and when you ask them why, they can’t really articulate a reason. They get flustered and mutter something about her being a lesbian (without a shred of evidence) and being “bossy”, which is code for a strong female. The hatred of Hillary is a testament to the power and intensity of FoxNews’ propaganda machine.
dr. bloor
@Major Major Major Major: Your best friend on FB is the “Unfriend” button. Good for the blood pressure.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dogwood: A Democrat running against Republicans. Unpossible!
the constant bleats of “Attention must be paid (to me!)!” are kind of odd, but it’s always useful to remember what Jamelle Bouie said a couple weeks back: Politics on the internet is not politics.
@marduk: what did she say that you find so offensive?
dr. bloor
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: See also: Christopher Walken, Annie Hall.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@dr. bloor:
LOL. OMG, that’s it!
Major Major Major Major
@Zinsky: @dr. bloor: Oh, his friend request has been in limbo for years, so he’s not a ‘friend’, but he is trolling an actual friend’s comment thread.
Oh, and 30 days sober! Go M^4, it’s your birthday
dr. bloor
@Major Major Major Major: Congrats!
Roger Moore
@Major Major Major Major:
ITYM a “grown ass-man”. He certainly sounds like an ass, at least.
O. Felix Culpa
@Major Major Major Major: Yay you! Not easy, but it’s worth it. I’ve been cheering for you behind the scenes. :)
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: The entertaining point of last night was Griftwald tweeting out how some CNN talking head said Clinton was more hawkish than most Democrats and Jake Tapper adding on how she was hawkish than most Republicans. Both sides are bad, everybody!
BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major:
Congrats, in no time you’ll be counting that in months, then years(5 1/2 for me).
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@Major Major Major Major: Hey, grats!
bemused
Trump is all over the place on issues but he is always consistent on misogyny. Chris Hayes was filling in on msnbc afternoon show with a segment with women talking about Trump’s woman issue. One panelist told story of talking with women who liked Trump, had worked for him and still support him. One of those supporters said she had a lot of weight left to lose after her third baby. Trump kept a picture of her then and whenever he thought she was doing her job or getting too big for her britches, he would pull out “the fat picture” out of a drawer to remind her she wasn’t perfect. Still a Trump supporter!
@srv:
Um, Trump is the misogynist party.
magurakurin
@Major Major Major Major: way to go!
Marc
Congrats to the Sanders team for a trio of quite strong wins. And happy Easter to the crew here.
MattF
I’m just sittin’ here, trying to absorb the implications of Anne Laurie’s FP note about gunz at the Quicken Loans Arena.
Nah. I give up.
Happy Easter everybody, btw.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Germy:
I’ve wondered if that is a version of the system my dentist uses for fillings. That one is UV-initiated.
Hal
I’m at a point where I think Sanders is electable, but I have my doubts about ability to maneuver in a general election the way I’m sure Hillary Clinton should be able to do. What’s funny to me is I didn’t have those doubts about Obama, even though he was a junior senator. I’m not sure where my trepidation comes from to be honest.
Still, I have no doubt Trump is going to stink, and I can see either Hillary or Bernie wiping the floor with him at the debates.
BillinGlendaleCA
@srv:
Nah, just a re-brand of the Know Nothings.
(Still waiting for the marine layer to burn off.)
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@srv: The same guy who juuuuuuuust said its not off the table to declare war on China, right? Il Douche can’t pivot if he’s continually making this shit up on the fly and has protesters dogging him with his own words at every turn.
The best part? We have seven more months of you and your fellow 4chan edgelords tripping over your own dicks as you find out your stupid internet tricks don’t work in the real world.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
Wow, what a circle jerk of bropinion FAIL. New Clinton Rules: project as much white male anxiety as there is onto the woman, since the black guy won’t be around much longer.
Baud
@srv:
The BJ Party, led by Baud!
Matt McIrvin
Trump is creating the Herrenvolk Party. If you think it’s the People’s Party, your opinions about which people are really people are well-established.
RedDirtGirl
@LAO: Very Nice!
Tripod
I find it entertaining the Sanders campaign has become the odd mix of Yippies sticking it to the man circa 1968 and Ron Paul’s lost flock. If the general election involved flooding rural state caucuses, I’d be down with Bernie, but as it stands, it’s an awfully narrow vision of, and for, America.
cmorenc
@debbie:
Yes she does, but it’s not a good idea for reasons beyond the problems with being presumptuous about having put Bernie away, even if the math suggests she likely has. The word “pivot” communicates to voters not merely that she’s turning her focus from the nomination contest to the general election, but just as important, that she may be changing positions from those she seemed to advocate in the nomination contest vs Bernie (i.e. in a decisively progressive direction) to different, less progressive positions designed to triangulate against the GOP nominee, which also feeds the narrative that she’s insincere and not trustworthy.
Baud
@cmorenc:
Do you think she’s actually going to put out a press release that’s says, “I’m now pivoting to the general election”?
Matt McIrvin
@Tripod: Sanders’ support is broader than that; nationally his support among Democrats is up in the 40s. It’s respectable.
It’s not enough to get the nomination barring some unlikely event. He’s still gaining but he’s running out of time; Hillary’s support needs to collapse and it’s not doing that. Compare with 2008, where by the time the primaries really got going it was neck-and-neck in the delegate count all the way through.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: I think it said: “Bernie’s a fucking loser and his supporters are a bunch of dumb kids who are gonna vote for me anyway so me and Jamie Dimon are gonna go laugh at them while we drink Cristal from kitten skulls on the deck of his solid gold yachticopter!”
Frankensteinbeck
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Serious question: What happens if he dies during the general election?
@BillinGlendaleCA:
But I was told he would attack Hillary from the left on war issues!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Tripod:
Al Giordano :
That’s why he’s targeting really white states.
Keith G
@liberal: Yes he does and I still have no idea of what a Sanders administration would be like and how it would function.
I took that risk with Obama and the ROI was mostly positive. I do not get the same vibe from Sanders – that he has a comprehensive (if untried) view of how to function as the Chief Executive of our government.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: One of her campaign advisers could make some remark about an Etch-a-Sketch. I think that would bring a certain je ne sais quoi to the proceedings.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Frankensteinbeck:
I have no idea, and I don’t know if there’s any rules around it. It’s a fascinating question. Maybe it goes to the Electoral College.
dr. bloor
@cmorenc: “Pivot” is probably a misnomer in this situation. She’s not just ignoring Sanders and turning her attention to Trump, she’s trying to unify the party. They’re not mutually exclusive.
sparrow
@Tripod: As someone who spends a lot of time with groups of Sanders supporters, you’ve actually got it pretty wrong. I don’t blame you, the media has invested a lot of effort in making Bernie’s supporters seem to be one or the other write-off-able monolithic block.
The only somewhat accurate generalization is that he massively has the youth on his side. This is true. But when it comes to who is out there canvasing, I actually see a lot of older (50s+) people. People with a long history of voting and being registered as democrats, who aren’t very happy with where the party has been headed for a long time. People who are seriously worried about their kids and grandkids, the debt that faces them, and the uncertainty. I guess you could write these people off as “hippies sticking it to the man”, but I’d just call them, you know, democrats.
It bears repeating that pretty much anywhere else in the world, Sanders would be considered a center-left, very mainstream politician. He’s actually *not* that radical.
cmorenc
@Baud:
She herself won’t – but obviously some folks inside her campaign are saying the sort of political code language that amounts to exactly that, in off-the-record comments to media sources – and the media will irresistibly translate that as “pivoting”, since that is such a convenient shorthand that is easy to present in 30 second news or talking head program sound-bytes. And the folks inside her campaign should know that.
Major Major Major Major
@cmorenc: Is she allowed to pivot after the primary is over, or should she keep running the primary after the convention so that the media doesn’t call it a ‘pivot’?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sparrow: It bears repeating that the election won’t be held “anywhere else in the world”
BillinGlendaleCA
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’ve read that too, here, in the last few hours.
dogwood
@Hal:
I have a hard time seeing Bernie as a particularly effective general election candidate or debater. He’s had it pretty easy in the primaries. His primary campaign has been waged against the Democratic Party, the DNC, Super Delegates, Clinton, Obama etc. None of these entities have really responded to him in kind. So it’s been smooth sailing being the aggressor. But the look on his face when BLM stormed to stage at Yearly Kos was pretty telling. He panicked. I’m not really a fan of stage storming as a tactic, but Bernie couldn’t muster even an iota of grace and discipline in that situation. He walked out. In a matchup between Trump and Sander’s, we will definitely be electing the antithesis of Barack Obama in terms displaying grace under pressure.
Ultraviolet Thunder
Trump, having no principles, consistency or positions on the issues, can attack HRC from the right, left or the 7th dimension at will. All without risking contradiction. And of course he will. But the effect will be limited to those who already support him and don’t care that the only thing he stands for is achieving power.
Davis X. Machina
@Keith G:
A nuclear-armed Denmark, until he gets rid of the nukes. Then, just Denmark.
Soylent Green
As a federal employee, I will be voting for a new CEO. I want my new boss to be a competent and effective administrator. Someone who will put the right people in charge of federal agencies and ensure that their programs are adequately funded. Running the executive branch requires compromise, patience, and attention to detail. I don’t see Bernie fitting this role; I think he is too old and too dogmatic to be a good administrator. But HRC is abundantly qualified.
dr. bloor
@Davis X. Machina: Can he find enough people in the US to fill a Cabinet that knows how to do “Denmark?”
Villago Delenda Est
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016: Please. It’s “Ill Douche”.
gwangung
@Zinsky:
Think it’s amazing how much hatred and vitriol towards Hilary there is on the LEFT.
Shows you the effect of the right wing media.
Percysowner
@Zinsky: Sadly there is a lot of hate for her from the Bernie supporters as well. I made a rather mild comment about the Arizona election on another board and got jumped on being told how I was supporting a corrupt politician. I’m commenting here only because this group is, by and large, not that nuts.
The comment was that a progressive blog stated that the voting problems in Arizona were Clinton’s fault because she was behind the voter suppression and that is what stopped Sanders. I pointed out that the suppression happened in a county with a large minority population and that in general, they voted FOR Clinton, so suppressing their vote didn’t help her. I then got lectured on how the Sanders supporters jumped to conclusions because Hillary is so corrupt at her soul that this is why he’s losing. I was told the only reason Sanders is losing is the corrupt, owned by large companies media won’t cover Sanders, which is true, but that’s mostly because they spend 90% of their time covering the Trump circus, not because Clinton is on 24/7. I know Sanders is unlikely to win the nomination, and if he does I’ll work really hard to help him win, but I’ll do it hating that I have to because the Republicans are so, so awful because his rabid supporters are making me really angry. I also know that most of his supporters are fine people who believe his message of needing change. A mantra I repeat to myself.
AnotherBruce
I’m so clueless about Easter. It’s in March this year instead of being normally in April. I can only make a guess that the timing is caused by being the first full moon after the spring equinox. Amirite? if I am, I’m surprised, because I thought Christianity didn’t do lunar holidays. But I am indeed clueless thanks to being raised in a family of (for the most part) apathetic agnostics.
Matt McIrvin
@Frankensteinbeck: Horace Greeley died between Election Night and the meeting of the Electoral College in 1872. His electors split up between other candidates (he was losing badly to U. S. Grant anyway).
John D.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: The party selects a replacement.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That could mean anything
Applejinx
If Sanders DOES win he’s going to need all of the Hillary strong points: from social justice politics to a willingness for incrementalism on things like health care. I personally don’t believe he’s fixing to ‘throw out the ACA on day one’ or some such nonsense because I don’t think that’s practically possible. I think that will be a ‘broken promise’ that Hilbots would say is better broken.
The Presidency is more symbolic than we would like. Even Obama’s got a limited number of things done with his. This is why I wouldn’t want to get stuck with a 80s/90s/00s Hillary in it, because that’s symbolic of clinging to a collapsing system and pretending it will be okay when it won’t.
Electing Bernie would be symbolic of a bunch of changes that won’t happen the way he tells it, but it’s the single fastest way to establish a mandate for those changes and the most effective way to clean house. Expect him to hector and bug his followers to run for office and get involved, because he’s already doing that but it’s not reported (who, in the media, wants to see any of that?)
And yeah, because of the sadly presidency-oriented attitude of the electorate, expect the next big push to come in 2020. It will either be a Washington-breaking uprising trying to kick out a President Hillary who is already at war again (boy this observation brings out the hecklers: little close to home, eh?) or an even more hippie movement furious with Bernie for not delivering any ponies in the real-world Washington, DC.
Oddly, the first one would probably be a more effective movement assuming Hillary does in fact side against the hippies this time around. It’s getting to be break-out-the-tumbrels time and it’s taken an Obama to prop up the decaying establishment this long and paper over the fundamental problems with it. Hillary is no Obama, even if she can be trusted to work to the same ends.
Neither is Bernie, of course, but it’s very difficult to claim the electorate is ‘center-anything’ if he wins. Which they aren’t, that’s silly. People can’t afford to be center anymore.
Baud
@Percysowner:
That should be the blog’s mantra.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: I can only hear that phrase in the voice of Patrick Stewart as Jean-Luc Picard.
dr. bloor
@AnotherBruce: Here you go.
gwangung
@dogwood: Yeah, pretty much this. He’s not been very nimble when the ground shifts or something unexpected happens. (See, also, his dogmatic insistence not to discuss foreign affairs in the debate following the Paris attack).
My judgement is that he’s right on the issues, but wrong as the person to bring it, or anything else, off.
Emma
@gwangung: Think it’s amazing how much hatred and vitriol towards Hilary there is on the LEFT. Shows you the effect of the right wing media.
One of the most disheartening effects of this election cycle for me has been seeing Democrats spouting right wing talking points with absolutely no compunction.
Chyron HR
@Percysowner:
No, we are, we just channel it into Hamilton.
WAIT DID SOMEBODY JUST SAY HAMILTONNNNNN?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m fine with calling NBC politically corrupt, but it seems to me Chris Hayes has somewhat less than hostile interviews with Sanders at least once a week, and he’s been on the Maddow show quite a bit. I’ve more or less given up on O’Donnell, but what I’ve seen in the past few months suggests (surprisingly, to me) that he feels the fucking Bern. Also
I despise Politico in general and Thrush (if he’s the one I’m thinking of who used to be on Alex Wagner’s panel show) combines Village smugness with obnoxious hipster affectations, but it doesn’t look like he’s trying to silence Bernie.
Tripod
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Al puts it pretty well.
That tax plan is incredibly regressive, and redistributive from the bottom third to the middle third.
dr. bloor
@Applejinx:
Speechless.
Applejinx
@cmorenc:
Let’s be clear: if she does this, then she literally is insincere and not trustworthy.
I’m not prepared to jump to that conclusion, among other things it would be a political miscalculation and she’s been better about that this time around. She might not pivot in this way. But if she does, much less does it openly, she literally is insincere and untrustworthy and justifying some of the worst things people have said about her.
Matt McIrvin
@AnotherBruce:
Yes, except that it’s not the real moon, it’s a simpler mathematical formula that approximates the moon, and it’s not the real spring equinox, it’s March 21st nominally designated as the spring equinox. And the Eastern Orthodox church does it a little differently.
The lunar aspect comes from Easter being originally associated with the Jewish Passover. Originally the idea was to just celebrate it on the Sunday of Passover, but the Church eventually decided their holiday shouldn’t be dependent on some whole other religion, so they came up with their own not-necessarily-identical version of the same calculation. So sometimes it coincides with Passover and sometimes it doesn’t.
gwangung
@Percysowner: Yeah, was arguing with someone on Arizona. Given that it was the county government running the election, the county government was Republican and that we could SEE what they were doing for the last six months, I said it was hard for me to see how Clinton could be faulted.
Fraid that didn’t make a dent in their conviction.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@Baud:
I personally am no more sane than most on the other side of the political fence. I think I’m more self aware though. And if you look at the dysfunction on the right, self awareness is the piece that’s missing.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dr. bloor: hell, their Idol wanted to primary him in 2012, one of the things Honest Bernie waves away dismissively and is not challenged on by the media that is so resolutely hostile to him.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Germy:
I have not seen it but I know they use UV light to cure fillings now. I never thought to ask but it does seem like it would harden the outside but not the inside. No clue how that works
Emma
@Applejinx: You know, maybe all “AAAAHHHH Hillary sold us out!” types could maybe wait until she actually does. Let’s face it, they come out swinging if anyone says the least thing critical of Bernie, even if it’s true, but have absolutely no problem spreading rumors about Hillary.
gwangung
By the way, was hearing from folks who were caucusing in Washington yesterday, and it was all pretty respectful and collegial. Makes me think the obnoxious elements of the Sanders constituency is way smaller than I thought.
They’re still annoying, though…..
Applejinx
@Emma: Not every criticism of Hillary Clinton is by definition a right wing talking point and it’s really offputting to be told they are.
At least in the primaries I’ve seen Hillary steadily winning more of my trust by outright saying things not 1000 miles removed from what Bernie’s saying, for instance behaving like she’s got her own alternate ideas for reining in Wall Street and regulating banks. I am fine with a rousing discussion of how it’s really the shadow banking system that’s the problem: what if it is? Tell me more. That sounds plausible, even if it also sounds like ‘don’t blame Hillary’s friends in the GOOD banking system’.
I’m not fine with all that being politely forgotten as soon as it’s not needed for a primary caucus, and then being told that I’m just regurgitating wingnut talking points. She needs to not fuck all this up, especially if she pulls out a win through money, connections, and having many good ideas. Those good ideas are useless if she repudiates them.
Aimai
@dogwood: right. Why fight with bernie when they basically agree about everything? The differences are absolutely minimal in real, political, terms. And any time she rebuts bernie his online supporters lose their fucking minds. While if she agrees with him they brag that its only because bernie “made her” or bitch that she ” stole” his good ideas.
Emma
@gwangung: I think we’re lucky in that the majority of Democrats realize that whoever our candidate is, we need to work our tails off to get her/him elected. Because dear God the other option is terrifying.
dogwood
@Applejinx:
But as you said last night Bernie represents the “real Democratic Party”. Republicans decide who the “real Ameicans” are and Sander’s supporters like you, decide who the “real democrats”are. Pardon me, if I don’t sign on to this view of America and it’s political system
BillinGlendaleCA
@gwangung:
Nope, the Hillbeast is
.
Emma
@Applejinx: Then stop jumping to conclusions. What you were commenting on wasn’t a fact, it was the equivalent of gossip over the fence. There is plenty of real things to criticize Hillary for.
Applejinx
@sparrow: Hey, I saw you on TV! :D
ruemara
I’ve tried to give Sanders the benefit of the doubt on things & grant that he’s an idealist running with a fair amount of magical thinking as a plan, but no more.
There’s nothing for him to learn or pivot to and there could never be anything that he’s missing. His fans that I’ve talked to seem like religious converts. They despise Clinton more than any Republican, they don’t think fundraising for the party or down ticket seats is something Sanders has any responsibility for, if Sanders doesn’t win then it’s all a conspiracy against him. Toss in the white states plan, the derision towards southern dems as low info (black) voters…
I don’t think I’ve seen anything quite so exclusive passing itself off as progressive in my life. Now, a segment of them think they’re a massive voting block that Hillary must cater to?
Y’all didn’t think that about the black vote. The caucus states have a tendency to trend largely white in participation, so enjoy the small gains. I almost wish Sanders would win just so I can hear either the howls the first time his fanbase learns the limits of an EO, or their rationalisations when he has to compromise. The hypocrisy has been enlightening.
Tulsi Gabbard as a progressive hero? Seriously? HRC has never done anything progressive or held a progressive view in her life? Glenn fucking Greenwald claiming Trump would be less of a hawk? Surrogates pissing on Obama, John Lewis, Dolores Huerta and anyone who doesn’t think Sanders has a divine mission? Jesus. I hope Sanders takes his smug smile, wagging finger and the massive funds he’s collected & loses his next Senate run.
AnotherBruce
@Matt McIrvin: Do you also have a Popeil’s Pocket Fisherman? Those ads were great, although they did not explain what you would do if you caught a fish that weighed over 3 pounds.
Keith G
@Ultraviolet Thunder:
LOL. I have a feeling that when Trump faces the onslaught of the Clinton machine he will not have the time to figure out if he should shit or go blind. Do you remember the way the Bill Clinton campaign in ’96 started a media campaign in the spring that thoroughly cemented a negative persona of Robert Dole. I think it was funded by the Chinese and the Lincoln Bedroom.
It’s horrible, I know, but it is a small part of why I want HRC and Trump to be the nominees. Initially, the lower Trump goes, the more the Clintons will gleefully rough him up in ways heretofore unknown by that bigoted clown. I bet a Trump meltdown would be a possibility and a joy to watch.
gogol's wife
I tried to explain the Ted Cruz “rodent” National Enquirer video to an immigrant from Lithuania/Russia (in this country for 40 years but not terribly tuned into politics). I just could not get her to understand what he was talking about, no matter how much Nixonian history I threw at her. I noticed that the NYTimes completely omitted the “rodent” reference from their little story on it (buried at the bottom of page A12). Gail Collins mentioned it but claimed not to know what he was referring to (whether this was sincere or not I couldn’t tell). So just who did Cruz think was going to understand it, outside a few BJ readers?
Ruviana
@Major Major Major Major: So good! Keep it up! It gets better and better (2 and 1/2 yrs).
Tripod
@dogwood:
Her campaign has been fighting him one handed. They’re focused on closing out the delegate count as cost effectively as possible and getting infrastructure up in swingy states. Iowa and and maybe Nebraska are they only caucus states they’ve spent in.
i.e. They fought for Arizona, Ohio and now Wisconsin, but they’ve flat refused to get into a spending battle with Tad Devine. Now that he can’t outspend them, I’d expect the primary results going forward will reflect better splits (and delegate hauls) for Clinton.
Applejinx
@dogwood: Grace under pressure is one thing I like a great deal about Hillary. If I could set the issues and positions, I would be the most brazen Hilbot around, because I want a female President (and many more to come, preferably with children who’ll be living in the America they create) and I want someone who can’t be intimidated.
I even want Hillary to pivot, because I don’t want her sticking by what worked (politically) in the 90s. I want her to, unruffled, tack to meet the needs of a new electorate. There’s no shame in that. There is huge shame in pretending to, and then falling back on old ways which have been profoundly discredited… advisors worth no credit at all… and tone-deafness that risks everything she’s striving for.
We need a VERY tough person to chart our path through the coming decades. But I’ll happily settle for a stubborn mensch who represents resistance to the worst natures of our current political system. Bernie would not automatically be my first choice, but he just does not waver on the issues and at some point you gotta decide who the hell you are, put down the sports jerseys and ‘both sides’ narratives, and govern.
Aimai
@sparrow: yes sanders is not all that tadical–but his followers seem to think he is. Snd conversely they think/are told that hrc is super conservative. She is not. There is slmost no difference between their votes in congress.
Roger Moore
@AnotherBruce:
Christianity doesn’t do lunar holidays for the most part, but it’s clear from the gospels that the last supper was a Seder, so they made an exception in the case of Easter. There have been various proposals over the years to fix Easter to the solar calendar, but they’ve failed because of disagreements between different branches of Christianity.
gwangung
@Applejinx:
Yeah, that’s a quality I consider as critical—I think it’s underappreciated, and it’s something I KNOW isn’t in any of the front running Republican nominees.
dogwood
@Keith G:
I don’t think Clinton has to do all that much to rough up Trump. He embarrasses himself on a daily basis without fail. And while democrats like to talk about this deadly Clinton machine that destroys it’s opponents at will, I would note that her campaign is being run by a lot of Obama and Obama type operatives. And what Obama did to discredit Romney in the summer of 2012, was tougher than anything the Clintons ever came up with.
Villago Delenda Est
@gwangung: They’re just noisy on the Internet. Out in meatspace, most people aren’t anonymous, which allows for a lot of noisy that otherwise they’d be too embarrassed to display amongst actual people.
marduk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oh, nothing offense. Just that tacking to the center while the primary is ongoing would be a disastrous strategic blunder with long term negative consequences for the democratic party. Sanders supporters are the party’s future and she can’t afford to alienate them any more than she already has with her dismissive “no we can’t” campaign.
Doug R
@BillinGlendaleCA: For someone who wants to war with China, he sure has a lot of his crap made there.
Villago Delenda Est
@gwangung: If you have any doubts about Hillary’s ability to be graceful under pressure, I give you the Trey Gowdy 11 hour flopsweat festival of a Benghazi! hearing, in which she reduced the GOP slime to even slimier slime, and came out looking tan, rested, and ready.
sparrow
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: My point is that Sander’s doesn’t have some “low ceiling” of support (I’ve been following media for a while, first it was “he’ll win vermont only”, then “maybe 15%”, then “his ceiling is 30%”, then “40%”… now silence), and that is precisely because he is *not* a crazy radical. The comparison to other countries *is* illuminating. We’re not electing a committed communist here, no matter what fox news says.
Villago Delenda Est
@Doug R: Haven’t you heard? Drumpf isn’t responsible for anything bearing his brand. He just collects checks from the royalties and has no involvement whatsoever in the products, which are of course classy just by the having the brand.
AnotherBruce
@Matt McIrvin: So the only thing real about it is that it happens on Sunday? Wow, what a convoluted holiday.
Frankensteinbeck
@marduk:
Don’t worry about it. When her supporters refer to her pivoting to the general, we don’t mean changing her positions. I doubt she will change them enough to notice, either to the left or right. We mean aiming her rhetoric and organizing at the Republicans.
Doug R
@Germy: I think it’s a similar material to what dentists use in modern fillings. Ultra violet light I believe with a short wavelength=more energy. I can still see large hidden repairs being a problem, though-my dentist tends to do my fillings in parts or layers.
Applejinx
@gwangung: But that’s also the thing: if Hillary tacks and triangulates, it means I can set the issues and positions, perhaps even for her governance.
Or, more accurately, the 40% or so of the Dem vote who are prepared to demand it, can set the issues and positions, perhaps even for her governance. She’ll represent whoever is there as her legitimate constituency and boldly demanding she represent them and their concerns. She did it for Wall Street when they were the most influential part of her constituency (as New York Senator), and now that her constituency’s expanding, she can tack to meet new demands on her governance.
But you only do that by making demands even to the point of stomping your little feet and swearing you’ll never speak to her again if she doesn’t do as you say.
Wall Street did this for years. Don’t be too thrown when you see lefties, in considerable numbers, doing likewise. That is how the game is played. If you just swear loyalty with no expectations, you throw away your power for nothing.
What some people call ‘right wing talking points’ I call pressure: pressure not to cave, not to back off on those 2016 political positions but to go forward with them, internalize them. It can be expressed as ‘I love that you do this’, or it can be expressed as ‘just so you know, if you do this I hate you with the fire of a thousand burning suns’. It’s pressure, nothing more.
Villago Delenda Est
@AnotherBruce: All the other associated days always fall on the same day of the week. Good Friday is ALWAYS a Friday. Easter Sunday is ALWAYS on a Sunday. The entire holiday cycle screams “allegory”, which implies that the rest of the “unerring word of God” is strongly allegorical. But the fundie shitheads just don’t get that. They are the original doublethinkers.
Roger Moore
@Doug R:
And for somebody who hates illegal immigrants, his companies sure hire a lot of them. Trump is all hat and no cattle.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@marduk:
I keep hearing that Sanders supporters are the party’s future, but he’s been doing nothing but breeding contempt for the party, and has registered as an Independent to run again in Vermont. I think that statement is not just meaningless, but dangerously wrong. I think he may end up being a net negative, turning another bunch of too pure to run or contribute-to-the-party’s-candidates white kids into another bunch of disaffected whites who blame everyone but themselves for not getting government to work for them. I’m not convinced they’re not racist either – maybe not like Trump’s orc army, but I really do not like what I’ve been seeing, at all, from Bernie’s strategy or from his supporters.
sparrow
@Aimai: I agree to a certain extent. My problem with Hillary is mainly with her stated positions on foreign policy (where she is most likely to resemble a neocon), and her history of disappointing reversals and anti-progressive stances (see: promising E. Warren that she would vote against the bill to make bankrupcy more difficult, and then turning around and voting for it at the behest of her banker friends). I understand some people find her new “Progressive who gets things done” shtick to be convincing, but I’m skeptical that this will last beyond the primary season. My expectations for a Hillary presidency would be low enough already, but then there is the extra “wtf does she actually stand for?” uncertainty on top. I feel I know 100% what Bernie stands for. And given that he was an *awesome* mayor and representative by all accounts, I don’t have any concerns about his executive abilities.
Heliopause
@AnotherBruce:
Easter is biblically tied to Passover, which is a spring holiday, and that makes sense with its theme of rebirth. When ancient christians worked up their Resurrection mythology it only made sense to tie it to Passover.
Christmas is set near the winter solstice for no good reason other than that 4th century christians were more practical than we give them credit for.
Villago Delenda Est
@Heliopause: Pagan holidays needed to be coopted. So they did.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yeah, I’m not persuaded by the argument that a campaign that seems equal parts based on the cult of the presidency (what’s “down ticket”?) and personality that promises radical change by the force of one man’s shouting is a great way to build for the future.
Linnaeus
@sparrow:
I agree here. What’s important about the Sanders phenomenon (such as it is) has less to do with Sanders himself and more to do with what it signifies, which is an ongoing shift in the Democratic Party.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He’s doing nothing about it, either. I really don’t trust him at all – he’s dismissive of it all. He really doesn’t have any interest or ability to reach out to the community of people of color, and his online bullyboys sure don’t.
AnotherBruce
@Villago Delenda Est: Well, in their defense, God gave them some confusing and contradictory instructions.
Elie
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Just remember that there may be a number of ratfuckers out there pretending Bernie support but aren’t. I am really trying to give him and his supporters the benefit of the doubt and I don’t follow twitter or much facebook which will help me. My sense of Bernie’s personality is that what you see is what you get — a somewhat ornery and at times arrogant person who believes enough of the right stuff to be taken seriously. I do not particularly like his temperament for the office and wonder if he has the self discipline to behave like a head of state all the time.
I tell ya, as much as people bitch about the length, expense and effort of the US election process, I for one am glad. You have to run these sons of bitches for a while, till their tongues hang out, to see what cha got. We still make mistakes, but I think we would make even more in a short cycle that didn’t cost much. Make no mistake, this is a job interview for the most difficult and important executive job in the world. No one is entitled to the job until we say so. I support Hillary, but not blindly. I am watching and assessing all of ’em.
Applejinx
@marduk: It’s not necessarily a ‘no we can’t’ campaign.
That’s a Berniebot attack, yeah, but what I’ve seen more than once out of Hillary is a ‘nice fantasy, now here is the detailed practical reality of how we’re going to gain the next few inches/feet/yards in this fight’. I see that over and over in the BJ Hilbot rants: that only Hillary Clinton can make this stuff happen. Some are claiming that the black vote believes this so strongly, that it’s hopeless for Bernie to expect their support: they depend so much on gaining (or losing) those yards, that it’s a done deal for that voting bloc.
This is a fine angle to take. It might even be true, since the Republicans are so disorganized and demoralized now.
On the other hand it’s easy for the black vote to align with Hillary since it’s pretty obvious she’s not gonna throw them, or women’s issues, under the bus. She’s probably not even going to cave on LGBT issues, and that kind of backbone is needed.
I think it’s totally fair for the socialist or the antiwar vote to draw some lines in the sand, because in order to be the tough negotiator making steady progress, you have to have a direction. If some of these directions are actively horrible, the last thing you want is a super-dogged incremental fighter who can’t be dissuaded or stopped. Ask yourself, if Hillary told you one of her primary goals was to crush Iran so Israel would be forever safe, would you be thrilled? She’s halfway there if her AIPAC talk means anything. Do you think she’ll fail to make good on what she said?
gwangung
@Linnaeus: Yeah, that’s why I’m hoping they continue to be engaged and start influencing party activities…not just in very blue areas, but in purple areas, too. That’s arguably more important than the presidential race.
O. Felix Culpa
@sparrow: Having worked as a manager and executive in organizations of different sizes and types, I do not view Bernie’s service as mayor of a small, undiverse city – however distinguished – as remotely qualifying for managing at the federal level. Very different skills required. For one, I have not seen strong evidence of coalition and consensus-building during his years in the Senate.
ETA: I like that he has emerged as a voice for the left and hope that this program gets more fully developed and embraced within the Democratic party. But I do not have confidence in Sanders’ capacity as executive.
Linnaeus
@gwangung:
And it’s not just the Sanders people, either. You see it in the Clinton campaign, too.
marduk
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: What you are saying here is that you’re completely unfamiliar with the demographics of the people who support Sanders. It’s not like he’s capturing a bare plurality of the under 30 vote. When I say they are the party’s future I mean they are literally the people who will either grow up to be lifelong democrats or, if sufficiently alienated by “third way” centrism, non-voters. Or perhaps Nader II supporters.
This sad strategy to mock and dismiss their aspirations for a better, more liberal form of government presents the potential of a long term disaster for the democratic party, and Hillary should be reaching out to them, not turning to appeal to the mythological “moderates” of DC press corps fantasy that love above all cosmopolitanism and low taxes, cosmopolitanism optional.
Doug R
@Baud: Obama’s said they should pivot to the general, just not in public according to this: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/18/us/politics/obama-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders.html?_r=1
Elie
@sparrow:
Ah, but you had better take into consideration the style of the state by state test of the candidates. There are open, closed and hybrid primaries and caucuses. Each shapes the type of people who come out and the results. There is a lot of methodology and interpretation of results in caucuses. I know that cause I was part of running one. Small groups with great passion definitely can move caucus results, but may not reflect the less intensely engaged population that will definitely show up on election day. Just saying, don’t go into a swoon on Bernie just yet. And again, all of them will be getting progressive exposure and wear and tear — so we will continue to see who they are and what they can take. They are under increasing scrutiny and pressure and that is how it should be.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Major Major Major Major: Yay!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@marduk:
I think that Bernie’s supporters could stand to learn a lot from not just Obama, who I see routinely dismissed as “Establishment”, but also from Hillary – about how to campaign and lose, then support your opponent, and how to speak to people who aren’t mostly white – the real base of the party – that seems to be readily overlooked for some other kind of liberalism that won’t work unless racism is accepted as the obstacle to every other progressive goal. Hillary has exposed Bernie’s left flank in regards to the changing country, which is dismissed by his supporters. Until that’s acknowledged, I don’t see how anything changes.
marduk
@Frankensteinbeck: Nothing wrong with turning her rhetorical guns on the Republicans. What I fear is a return of the third way triangulation that marked the majority of Bill Clinton’s presidency, which I think would be profoundly alienating to a huge chunk of the people supporting Sanders. If she does intend that as a strategy in the general election (and I wouldn’t be surprised), she’d do best to wait until the primaries are over and Sanders has explicitly endorsed her and begun to campaign for her.
marduk
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I don’t expect Bernie’s supporters are interested in taking advice from someone who continually implies his economic policy positions represent crypto-racism.
PaulWartenberg2016
Bit off-topic but: can you imagine the number of little girls running around playgrounds with toy shields and swords thinking they’re Wonder Woman fighting off Doomsday?
O. Felix Culpa
@marduk: Maybe, just maybe, Hillary isn’t Bill. I would hope that in the lefty-sphere, women might be accorded agency (and possibly learning curves) apart from their husbands.
Elie
@marduk:
Why do some of you people just ASSUME she is gonna be “just like Bill”! Do you not think she is a separate person perhaps capable of her own approaches and strategies? And why do all Bills problems, mistakes, attitudes, accrue to her? What evidence do you have that she is just gonna be a female Bill? Isn’t that YOUR bias! I don’t recall her announcing that this was the Bill Clinton II administration.. She is getting so much misogyny in the expectations that folks are laying on her. One she is a cold bitch that somehow did all of Bill’s dark work and 2) she is more incompetent, a less good politician and everything else than Bill. Fuck that shit!
TriassicSands
Nothing is much more depressing (to me) than hearing women explain why they support Trump. With men it’s just stupidity, but it seems like women should have so much more to “overlook” or “excuse.” I guess Ted Cruz isn’t much more appealing than Trump. Yecch!
Probably the most notable difference yesterday in the caucus (WA) was the difference in the level of enthusiasm between the Sanders supporters and those backing Clinton. The was a lot more passion behind Bernie. It wasn’t that the Clinton supporters were lukewarm, but rather they stressed her experience in an almost academic way. The Sanders supporters were much more about the need to energize voters and get them to look forward to change — big change — that wouldn’t come this year, but only after people had begun to consider such change as both necessary and possible. Hillary was about incrementalism and maintaining the status quo. Since my precinct and county actually lagged behind the statewide percentage for Sanders, I’m guessing things were similar in other caucuses. In the case of my caucus, it is not surprising that Hillary might do a little better — Sequim is a retirement community with a much higher than normal elderly population.
Everyone seemed to understand that winning in November — regardless of which candidate wins the nomination — is the most important thing.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@marduk:
Well, that’s a big fucking problem with Bernie and his supporters then. Hand waving away. Never anything to learn.
Linnaeus
@marduk:
Hillary Clinton won’t be just like Bill. That’s the point I was making above. 90s style Democratic politics are over.
Elie
@O. Felix Culpa:
You beat me to it…YEAH!!!
Ultraviolet Thunder
@TriassicSands:
I think we have to apply the standard in a nondiscriminatory way. Women Trump supporters can be explained by stupidity as well as men. And men don’t get a pass on ignoring the misogyny because it’s not directed at them.
O. Felix Culpa
@Elie: Preach it! :)
marduk
@O. Felix Culpa: Obviously that’s true Felix. As a senator she was a mixed bag from a progressive perspective. In the 2008 campaign she resorted to a number of anti-liberal attacks on Obama, which harkened back to the Clinton Administration’s triangulation. But she also took an unapologetically liberal position on some issues. As Sec. of State she was unacceptably hawkish. Her current campaign to date has been decent on the issues, though consistently to the right of both Sanders and O’Malley. It’s a mixed record.
I don’t think we can ignore Bill’s presidency when figuring out how Hillary will govern but we obviously shouldn’t take it as determinative either. Overall her record represents a mixed bag and that reinforces the fear that the Third Way that was realized during Bill’s administration will rear it’s ugly head again.
dogwood
@marduk:
Bill Clinton’s presidency began 24 years ago. The country was different then, demographically and ideologically. Do you really think Hillary doesn’t know that? Do you think Bill Clinton would run the same campaign today or govern the same today? Bill would have loved to do many of the things Obama did, but he didn’t govern the same country Obama did.
Elie
@TriassicSands:
Well while I agree that the overt enthusiasm of the Bernie supporters was in evidence, I take issue with characterizing Hillary supporters as not passionate or aware of the importance of her leadership for our country. Please remember the caucuses are not representative of any but the most energized. Hillary is extremely competent and able to provide stable leadership to our country that is both enlightened, builds on Obama’s work and deals with very difficult domestic and national issues in a confident and calm manner. No, I do not believe in Robin Hood. That we can take from the rich and give to the poor just like that. That our President only has to deal with people who agree with him/her — that decisions and strategies are clear and can be articulated without reservation well in advance and that is that. No. That is both Bernie’s and Trump’s shtick. “I” will give you this — “I will make x do this”… Its bullshit! Its not only bullshit, its SCARY bullshit. I would characterize Hillary’s supporters as confident of our choice and not needing to have a religious movement around it. Do not underestimate our support.
Major Major Major Major
@Elie: what do you mean you people
marduk
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Actually I think I will just “hand wave away” the idea that single payer healthcare and a heavily progressive income tax combined with expanded infrastructure and social welfare spending is secretly racist somehow. Do you really think it merits a serious response?
Villago Delenda Est
@AnotherBruce: Which tells you quite a lot about this “omniscient, omnipotent” entity, does it not?
Villago Delenda Est
@Ultraviolet Thunder: If you’re really into unearned male privilege, Rafael is your man, Mr. Asshole Old Testament Deity Patriarchy fan #1.
Elie
@marduk:
So tell me, do you want a President that would NEVER be a hawk? Is the answer to every situation, just negotiation? Wouldn’t you want our president to have a full set of possible alternatives as much as possible? Would you signal to all that we would never use force under any circumstances? When you say she is a hawk, you know Bernie supports kicking Isis’s ass. Is he a hawk too? What number of events/decisions make someone a “hawk” versus he/she might choose to use force. Is that all she advocates for — force? As a woman candidate in a sexist nation, do you think she might have to assert her ability to do force if necessary or so she just say, well I would never do that force thing, ever”!
Major Major Major Major
@marduk: ok, so I haven’t been following your thread, but who’s saying that and what’s the argument?
Elie
@Major Major Major Major:
Meant avid Bernie supporters… sheesh…
Applejinx
@marduk: BooMan’s made an interesting post to the effect that the Third Way stuff was of its times: that without it, we might’ve seen unbroken Republican rule throughout that whole time period. It’s a plausible argument.
The point being, it’s not the 90s anymore so Hillary really is free to not be like that.
Remains to be seen whether there will be a ‘tack to the mythical center’, that’ll probably be the tell. But BooMan’s point stands: Bill really did need to be that way, Gore really did try to double down on it, they were staying relevant in a very conservative age and didn’t have the luxury to be raving lefties.
I would say Hillary has that luxury. In fact, she doesn’t have the luxury to appease moneyed interests lest she go the way of Jeb? and find her money isn’t buying her love in the twenty-firteens.
dogwood
@marduk:
The “third way” wasn’t some permanent governing philosophy, it was an attempt to make democrats competive in the wake of the Reagan revolution. There’s a reason the DLC was formed and there’s a reason it no longer exists. You survive by adapting, not by screaming or foot stomping. But you have to adapt to reality, unless you are a republican and you create your own reality.
Major Major Major Major
@Elie: I was joking, I just like saying that :)
Elie
@Major Major Major Major:
Sorry — got a little hot under the collar…:-)
Ultraviolet Thunder
@Villago Delenda Est:
That factor of his makeup has been under explored because his actual policy positions and personality provide so much fodder for discussion/contempt. And he’s been smart enough to downplay his retrograde attitudes toward gender.
But the National Enquirer hasn’t always been wrong. Things could get interesting for Ted.
ETA: and those stories from women who knew him in college, though not as well as he seemed to want to know them if you know what I mean and I think you do. bathrobe in dorm public areas, etc.
Cacti
NY and PA are both closed primary states. Bernie will lose both.
Bob In Portland
@Tripod: When you write something like that you reveal your ignorance. Insulting Sanders supporters does not work. I’m guessing you must be part of Thomas Frank’s meritocracy.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@Elie: Haven’t you heard? Clinton is literally Reagan incarnate.
And when President Bernie accidentally vaporizes a teenager with a Hellfire missile, I’m sure his supporters will dutifully call him the same.
gwangung
@marduk:
This is a bullshit argument. You really shouldn’t use it.
Bob In Portland
@Emma: Didn’t we have this discussion yesterday? If you can’t tell the difference between leftwing talking points and rightwing talking points (and they are very different), then you do yourself a disservice by your ignorance.
Between paid speeches ($130 million), campaign contributions since 2001 (600-700 million dollars), the Clinton Foundation (two billion) and the Clinton Global Initiative (who knows, it’s incorporated in Canada, I hear) the 1% have invested close to three billion dollars in the Clintons. They’re expecting a return on her investment.
And before we start babbling on about the Clinton Foundation being a charity, Foundations have agendas and they steer their money for its most usefulness. Example: The half million that Chelsea acted as bagman for to the Flint mayor. And that was paid by one of Clinton’s billionaire friends. Didn’t have to touch Foundation money.
Soylent Green
They are young and idealistic. They will get older, and their sense of things will change. At that age I believed, with idealistic ’60s fervor, that McCarthy and then McGovern would usher in a progressive paradise. Then I got older, and learned more about how the world works.
Were I under 30 now, and unable to afford college or health insurance, or buried under student debt, I would be excited by a candidate who promised to make those burdens go away. Or who promised better employment prospects. Of course this does not represent all young Sanders supporters, but don’t kid yourself that they are all dyed in the wool progressives.
When Sanders loses the nomination, some of these young people will feel alienated, and some won’t vote. Fewer still will vote in midterm elections to follow. In time they will grow up and become more realistic about their idealistic yearnings. The party is primarily center-left, and probably always will be.
Bob In Portland
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I guess that’s why they have elections every four years. Perhaps you didn’t notice, but things still sucked for the bottom 80% in 2012. Like they suck now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: write ups of yesterdays caucuses focus more on percentages and delegate than voters, but my guess based on clicking around is that Sanders’ momentum shifting clean sweep represents fewer than 200,000 actual people.
significant inroads on the path to victory
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bob In Portland: and a primary challenge to Obama helped… how?
also, too, do you think of yourself as more of a crank or a crackpot?
Cacti
@Bob In Portland:
Of all the arguments put forward by the Bernie babies, this one is my fav.
Don’t dare insult them or else! But they’re free to insult with abandon (see Bob-O 3 posts later).
Bob, you’ve already said it would be against the high moral principles of Putin admirer like yourself to vote for Clinton, so, I’ll ask. Why the hell should anyone care what you have to say about the Presidential election?
You’re an old, white, left fringe crank, living in the whitest major city in the country, in one of the whitest states. You’re free to keep clinging to your bitterness over the US winning the Cold War, and blow kisses at the current right authoritarian dictator of Russia, given his former status as a KGB button man, because you, personally have no real hardships in this country, and never will.
You love Bernie because he’s like you, not really a Democrat, and a campus radical who never grew up.
marduk
@gwangung: Indeed it is a bullshit argument. You should take that up with the person that made it.
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
A “progressive” people’s revolution with a deliberate electoral strategy of avoid the most marginalized voters of the Democratic coalition and the country as a whole.
Gated community Marxism. Gotta love it.
Matt McIrvin
@AnotherBruce: my favorite thing about the whole business is the traditional name for the subject, “Computus”. THE computation. I guess it was considered important enough to not need further qualification.
Heliopause
Food for thought: Bernie just won the least white state in the union 70-30, and the most native American state 80-20. Wondering how the pundits will fit this into their grand narratives.
Bob In Portland
@Elie: Well, she supported Bill’s agenda then. Was she lying then or is she lying now? The two of them have accrued BILLIONS from the wealthy. They actually have partied with Trump.
But she’s been free of Bill’s constraints since 2001 and has skewed further to the right. How out of touch do you have to be to use Henry Kissinger and Madeline Albright as character references? No, I think that this is going to be the start of a major party realignment. Us folks out here in the cheap seats don’t have anyone to represent us. Hillary certainly doesn’t, and unless you’re spoiling for a fight to keep your mind off of how fucked up your life is, neither does any Republican. We’re not eating cake this time.
Bob In Portland
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Sanders’ economics are better for everyone under the top ten percent. That includes all people. How much do you make?
Soylent Green
That’s a myth. Oregon is 75% white, less than Pennsylvania. We have sizable populations of Latinos and Asians, especially here in Portland, which is trending to more diversity every day. Try again.
Bob In Portland
@Major Major Major Major: I caught that too. Please don’t hit me with your diamond-encrusted cane, ma’am.
Matt McIrvin
…Jesus, people. I suspect most Sanders voters IRL are more like my wife, or me in most past cycles: people who are just more liberal than the median Democrat and usually vote for the most liberal major primary candidate to signal their policy preferences before going for the Democrat in November. It’s not an unusual thing. They’re like 40% of Democrats nationally at this point, they’re not going to be some kind of fringe.
different-church-lady
@dogwood:
Because everything is offensive to Bernie supporters?
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: Well, people in gated communities down South, white or black and whatever side the gate was locked, seemed content with how their party leaders told them to vote. You apparently are a conservative, although a conservative with smashing taste and maybe you have your own parking spot at work. I suspect you’re not living in a ghetto. So your lame racist remarks won’t play well. And the South is over. Who do you think gets a lot of jobs to rebuild the infrastructure? Who do you think gets more and better education? Just whites? Your holier-than-thou snideness may play well with your compatriots here, but it doesn’t work out in the world.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@different-church-lady: THAT’S NOT FUNNY
I am shouting at you!
Bob In Portland
@Heliopause: They don’t see those colors from the veranda.
Chyron HR
Hey, look, another day where the same Sanders supporters flood every comment thread with the exact same anti-Hillary rants they post every day. Didn’t see that coming.
Doug R
@PaulWartenberg2016: You don’t have to be a little girl to love Wonder Woman. I caught myself pretending to have bullet deflecting bracelets a couple of times when the tv show was running ;)
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s not, in fact.
iLarynx
Fuckity fucking fuckfuckfuck. Hey! Maybe I can draw cartoons or be a blogger too.
Bob In Portland
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Did you stop beating your wife, Fool?
How much do you make? I’m guessing you’re not depending on welfare these days.
different-church-lady
@Chyron HR: Remember, everyone has to be nice to them or they will deny us their voterly essence.
Cacti
@Bob In Portland:
No Bob-O, I’m a liberal Democrat, and an unapologetic one at that.
What I’m not is some fringe left, people’s revolution hypocrite, hiding myself away from everyone with a brown face, but claiming to know what’s best for them.
That’s you.
Now be a good boy and go masturbate to some Putin pics, why don’t you?
Bob In Portland
@Chyron HR: Right. Only 70-80% of the voters yesterday. Nothing to even think about. What tune do you whistle past the graveyard? “Don’t Stop”?
Major Major Major Major
Aaaand time to blow this joint.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bob In Portland: Yes, Lisa Murkoswki is so terrified of Bernie’s political revolution, she’s siding with Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump on the USSC nomination. Same for Chuck Grassley and Kelly Ayotte in their outposts of the Revolution! They look out their windows and see Bernie’s mill-youngs and mill-youngs and…. do nothing.
The Revolution! is… blowing in the wind? Gone to look for America? I’m afraid I’m an old (like Bernie) and don’t know a Vampire Weekend song to snark on.
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: You’re a reactionary. You are comfortable in the presence of wealth. You insult people instead of engaging in the art of conversation. And you’re not liberal, or at least what liberal used to mean. You’ve probably triangulated yourself into the meritocracy, so congratulations.
If 75% of the Democrats out on the West Coast are cranks, then your sorry ass should at least be concerned that you don’t understand the message. That you still don’t understand the message.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
There are only 200,000 Democrats on the West Coast? Egads, we are fucked. Might as well move to Europe. I’ll take Paris, you take Moscow.
Bob In Portland
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Vampire Weekend aren’t that good. I go to Fela. But your smug ageist references don’t reflect Sanders supporters. You know that. Don’t play dumb, Fool.
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Then we take Berlin!
gogol's wife
@Chyron HR:
Oh, but it’s a “Clinton site.”
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: Oh, and with that remark I bet you’re cool with gays too. I bet you’re a ball of laughs when you have a few drinks in you. You’re a petty little bigot who likes to hang with the uppers.
How much do you make? You know, you sound like a classist, and with that mouth of yours you really shouldn’t feel so superior.
Cacti
@Bob In Portland:
You’re the picture of a latte liberal, living in your white coastal enclave, but pretending to be concerned about the poor impoverished masses.
Guess what Bob-O? They’re not voting for your vanilla, suburbanite, Che Guevara of Burlington. You sneer at the south but pretend to care about the poor and minorities. News flash, genius. The deep south is the poorest and blackest part of the whole damn country, and they rejected your cult hero in total.
5 of the 10 poorest States in the country have voted so far, and all rejected Sanders by huge margins. They did it because they know Bernie’s revolution is a lot of bullshit bluster. But totes not-racist white lefties like you will explain it away as them just not being smart enough to know what’s good for them.
Not the case Bob-O. Having been in the trenches their whole lives, they ARE smart enough to know a snake oil salesman when they see one, unlike bourgeois coastal white males such as yourself.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: But, so far, it’s not “75% of the Democrats on the West Coast”, but 75% of those who are interested enough to show up and caucus. As someone, I think the person you call Fool, mentioned earlier, the total of votes received by Sanders in three states yesterday was less than the number of votes by which Clinton beat Sanders in Ohio.
Bob In Portland
@different-church-lady: Don’t have to be nice, but it would help if you could understand us. But you are apparently incapable.
different-church-lady
@Bob In Portland: I think I understand you just fine Bob.
“Understand” and “appreciate” are not synonyms, BTW…
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: And there are a lot more people this election cycle who weren’t interested enough to show up and vote in those southern states where Clinton was so dominating. Besides, last week people were saying that it didn’t matter what the percentages were in the primaries, so I guess that’s changed today.
By the way, what’s the exchange rate for the hryvnia this week? Is it still over five cents to the dollar?
Bob In Portland
@different-church-lady: You don’t know me. I’m not asking for your understanding. I’m asking that you would be wise to understand the motivations of Sanders supporters, but you have to change the question instead of answering.
What’s your family income? Above 40,000 a year?
patroclus
I try to understand the Bernie supporters – we had a good conversation with them last night because it was Bernie night on the blog. Interestingly, not a single one of them (nor Bernie himself) made the ludicrous allegation that Hillary was responsible for the Honduran coup in 2009. because, of course, the U.S. wasn’t involved at all and merely used diplomacy in trying to resolve the conflict. Ultimately concluding that both Zelaya, who acted unconstitutionally in ignoring Honduran Supreme Court rulings and the Honduran military and legislature, were at fault. After two years of turmoil, there was a diplomatic settlement, to the satisfaction of the Hondurans.
I wonder if anyone is going to make that ludicrous allegation today. Hmmmm.
different-church-lady
@patroclus: Understanding their support for Sanders is not a difficult thing at all.
Understanding their behavior, on the other hand…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bob In Portland: Which states are those, Booby? In North Carolina, a state that might be in play in the actual election, Clinton got three times as many votes as Bernie got in his triple victory yesterday, in Florida, a state the Dems probably need, five times as many votes. Are those millions and millions (almost) of voters uninterested?
ETA: What the hell am I doing?
patroclus
After reading the absurd allegation that Clinton was responsible for the 2009 Honduran coup multiple times from one particular poster, I looked up on wikipedia all the coups that have taken place in the 20th and 21st centuries. Contrary to the ridiculous allegation that all coups work the same way (and the CIA was involved in all), I realized that that just wasn’t the case at all. Sure, with Arbenz, Castro, Lumumba, Allende, Diem, Mossadegh, Chavez and others the U.S. was clearly involved.
But not with the 2009 Honduran coup. Any reading at all about that coup would force one to the conclusion that the U.S. wasn’t involved; other than diplomatically. I wonder if we’re going to read the very same tripe today as we’ve heard all Spring long from one particular poster.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: You can look up exchange rates here.
Planning a trip? Kiev is very nice in the spring, and you never need a visa.
different-church-lady
@Bob In Portland:
@Bob In Portland:
Okay then.
@Bob In Portland:
Years in the past five I’ve made that much: one
Years in the past five I’ve made half that much: two
So, uh… fuck you?
Gin & Tonic
@patroclus: You’re wasting your time.
patroclus
@Gin & Tonic: Probably, but I’m sincerely wondering if that one particular poster is at all capable of admitting he was wrong about anything at all. He’s clearly wrong about the 2009 Honduran coup. Badly wrong. Even the article he cited directly contradicted him – stating that “it’s impossible to accuse Clinton of foreknowledge of the coup.” The U.S. wasn’t involved; except afterwards and diplomatically. This is a bright line issue for that particular poster. Can he admit – just once – that he might be wrong?
Gin & Tonic
@patroclus: No.
Bob In Portland
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Booby? Oh please.
patroclus
Reading about all the coups is very interesting. Did y’all know that wiki has a separate page for every decade, with numerous coups in numerous countries, all described in some detail. A lot of them are really sordid. And yes, the U.S. was involved in a whole lot of them. But not Honduras in 2009. Not at all. Not even remotely close. Bob would gain credibility with me if he admitted that he might be wrong. Maybe I’d defend him and agree with him on other points if he just admitted he might be wrong regarding this particular coup. The world wonders…
Villago Delenda Est
BIP and Cacti need to get a room so they can pummel each other with crap.
Bob In Portland
@patroclus: patroclus, you don’t even know how coups happen, do you? Do you actually think that the military, whose officers are trained by the US, financed by the US, armed by the US, would risk a coup without the US’s approval? You are naive. Obama’s initial reaction against it was because the memo didn’t yet get from Foggy Bottom to the White House.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: He can bring the lattes.
Bob In Portland
@different-church-lady: No thanks, I’m in a monogamous relationship. What part of the meritocracy are you in that allows you to look down your nose at the bottom 80%?
Bob In Portland
@patroclus: Absolutely responsible for the coup? No, that was in planning long before she ascended to SOS. She was merely there to watch over it happening. She likes regime changing for American free enterprise.
patroclus
When I was in school, I wrote a lengthy paper on the CIA’s involvement in numerous coups (it was about the time of the Church Committee and my professor was the former General Counsel of both the CIA and the NSA). I did a LOT of research and concluded that the CIA was involved in a whole lot of coups. I’ve researched coups, written about them, I’ve been to Honduras and have friends there and my conclusion is that Hillary wasn’t responsible for the 2009 Honduran coup. It’s not that hard to understand – either the U.S. was involved or it wasn’t. In Honduras, the U.S. was NOT involved, except afterwards and diplomatically. Will Bob ever admit that he might be wrong? Even if he’s right about a lot of other coups?
Bob In Portland
@different-church-lady: Why are Sanders supporters not Clinton supporters? Because we’re crazy? That’s what I mean, but I hardly ever get a straight answer from BJers.
patroclus
@Bob In Portland: Thanks! I have my answer. You have no credibility with me. None whatsoever. The inability to admit you might be wrong is telling. Carry on.
I hope others note this.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: But Ukrainians will soon need a visa to get into the EU.
Bob In Portland
@different-church-lady: Does it matter anymore?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: I haven’t seen anyone here say Sanders supporters are crazy. On the other hand, Sanders supporters who say that if Clinton is the nominee they will sit home in November or write in Jill Stein are — if not crazy — demonstrably willing to stick it good and hard to the poor whom they profess to be acting in defense of.
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: No time for you, bigot.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: They have needed a visa for the last 25 years, as they do today.
Gin & Tonic
@patroclus: You must be new here.
patroclus
@Bob In Portland: Reading on wiki about every single 20th and 21st century coups has educated me quite a bit on how coups work. Sometimes, the U.S. was involved; sometimes not. And in the case of Honduras in 2009, it wasn’t. I suggest that you read about all of them more fully. One of us is naive here, I agree.
Jasmine Bleach
@Applejinx:
Your quote on how Sanders will have to learn from Hillary about “social justice politics” just makes me laugh. Clinton talks a good game, but no–I sure hope to hell he doesn’t learn anything from her on social justice.
As I’ve stated before, Sanders can immediately be hugely effective as a president in ways that Clinton will not. 1) Veto the TPP and European equivalent. This will save US jobs, keep our judicial branch of government effective, and reign in corporate influence in our lives. 2) Reschedule pot and stop the war on drugs. Take away a major reason for cops to search vehicles and houses without real cause, take away the reason for incarceration of so many of our citizens, put a huge dent in our prison-industrial slave labor complex, easily halve the income of central and south american cartels, and provide a new, legal, taxable crop here (more jobs!).
Clinton will do none of that.
But by doing just those two things alone, which do not need any approval from congress, a Sanders presidency would have a huge and long-term positive effect on our future. Even if he ends up more incrementalist on other things like health care and the environment. (But he’d likely be less incrementalist than Clinton there as well.)
patroclus
@Gin & Tonic: Actually, I’ve been around since John made his dramatic switch from being a Republican because of Terri Schiavo. But I lurk mostly and don’t post much; sometimes for months on end. Bob’s absurd allegations regarding Hillary and the 2009 Honduran coup inspired me to do a LOT of reading. He’s wrong; and dangerously naive. He used to engage posters. Now, it’s almost exclusively ludicrous tripe. And he can’t even admit that he just might be wrong. Bernie needs better supporters who work harder to be persuasive. In fact, I told Bob right before the Illinois primary that I would vote for Sanders if he had any evidence whatsoever regarding alleged Hillary involvement in the 2009 coup. He ignored me. I voted for Hillary.
Ruckus
@Soylent Green:
All of us are really doing the same thing. We are hiring someone to operate the country. Not to be god or king or dictator. I think it’s easy for some to lose sight of what being president really means. They think they want a god or king or dictator. Or all three rolled into one.
Applejinx
@Jasmine Bleach:
As much as I seem to piss people off around here, I don’t consider it my job to tell black voters what to think about who’s on their side. If anything I consider racial/gender issues a saving grace for a potential Clinton presidency that could drop the ball in significant other ways, and don’t think that’s a con. Plus, I respect the argument that black voters aren’t gamblers on social revolution for the better. Look at what’s happening on the R side of the aisle and tell me wild upheaval will automatically be awesome.
I like your veto-TPP-and-legalize-weed notions (and I can’t even smoke the stuff) but I’m not one bit convinced Bernie can’t learn from Hillary w.r.t social justice politics. There’s some truth to the idea that it’s the privileged who want to make big gambles and exciting revolutions. Though when things get out of whack enough, you end up having to do the revolution anyway, ready or not.
I see Bernie more as evidence that revolution is looming and you’d better increment the fuck up or get run over, rather than literally the revolution itself. I don’t think he’d preside over a benevolent revolution of truth and justice if he won. I do think he’d push faster than Hillary is likely to tolerate, and that it’s needed.
Cacti
@Bob In Portland:
For Bob so loved the brown folks, he moved to vanilla-ass Portland, Oregon.
patroclus
@Jasmine Bleach: You seem like a much more reasonable Bernie supporter! He sure did well last night – and that bird incident was SO cool. I agree with you on marijuana – strongly. But I disagree on TPP – getting it in place would stimulate jobs. I think both Bernie and Hillary are wrong on that issue. And while I admire Obama for negotiating it and the entire pivot to Asia, I think he’s being cowardly in not trying to get it passed this year. (I realize I’m in the minority on BJ on this).
Cacti
@Jasmine Bleach:
You’re forgiven this once for the fantastic ignorance displayed above.
Less than 10-percent of the US prison population is federal.
The overwhelming majority of those incarcerated for drug offenses are state-level offenders who violated state drug laws. A POTUS has zero authority over state drug laws.
In the mean time, crack a civics text and bone up on federalist principles and state sovereignty.
J R in WV
@Applejinx:
The more off-put you get the better I’ll like it. You’re a troll for Bernie, with no real knowledge of how government works, what President Obama has accomplished, what a President Sanders wyould and would not be able to accomplish, and no manners.
You also don’t write very well.
So the farther away you go, and the sooner you go, the better off we all will be here at B-J.
Why do you waste your and our time here anyway? And are you related commercially with Bob from Portland? Or “RtR” and his crew?
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
Trump is all hat and no cattle.
I’m thinking along the lines of all shit and no sheep.
patroclus
@Cacti: You’re right, of course, on federal v. state responsibility for marijuana policy. But the federal government originally regulated weed in 1938, and getting the entire federal drug enforcement apparatus off the backs of the states would be a huge accomplishment. Barney Frank offered a bill to do this in his last terms and has passionately argued for it since. You’re right that it wouldn’t have a dramatic impact on existing incarcerated individuals, but it would have a significant impact on states that are considering liberalization and might lead to quicker repeal of all the state statutes.
The Goats' Nanny
@Hal: That one wasn’t hard for me to figure out. It’s because BHO is one smart son of a gun as is HRC. Bernie? I’m pretty sure he’s not in that category. Persistent, dogged, stubborn, yeah. The sharpest tool in the shed? No.
Applejinx
@J R in WV:
Because not everyone is like you, and because I don’t like you.
:D
You are being foolish, but that’s your privilege. I don’t clamor for posters like “YASQUEEN” Koch to go away, or the very prickly Cacti. How boring it would be if people had to be oh so civilized on the famous turncoat contrarian blog of a cranky Republican who turned cranky Democrat who hates everybody. I think it’s you who’s out of step.
If Hillary makes me a damn liar by not justifying all my worst harangues, I will be incredibly off-put and I will love every moment of it. Please explain how stifling criticism of Queen Hils helps her, or us, or anybody much. She only learns by running into trouble and that’s the only way she ever changes. Do you want the changes to stick or don’t you?
bemused senior
@marduk: Here is a comparison of the overlapping voting records of HRC and Sanders. I find that I agree with Hillary where they differ. ETA: The Secretary of State doesn’t define the underlying US foreign policy. That is determined by the President. We can credit (or discredit) the way it is pursued to the SofS.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Goats’ Nanny: in a lot of ways, Bernie reminds me of McCain, a self-righteous old coot who appeals to a lot of people’s (different people, of course) emotions, not least their own, and seem to believe their innate awesomeness will somehow change things for the better (with, again, very different ideas about what better is). Though if Sanders is not the most grounded in reality, even I wouldn’t put him in the same intellectual category as McCain, who is, if not exactly stupid, lazy and intellectually shallow. As good as stupid when it counts (Palin, foreign policy).
The Goats' Nanny
@Keith G: The difference between BHO and BS? Where do I begin? Smart, Constitutional Lawyer with a calm demeanor and a razor sharp wit versus a beatnik/yippie of average intelligence with a grumpy disposition who reminds me of my hippie Uncle who didn’t get his first paying job until he was 40, either.
patroclus
@bemused senior: That’s an interesting list – thanks for posting it. I went through it and I’m with Hillary rather than Bernie on about 2/3rd’s of the issues. Yes to the Indian Nuke deal, yes to cloture on the immigration bill, but I would have been with Bernie on transferring GITMO prisoners to domestic prisons. I don’t know anything about George Casey.
The Goats' Nanny
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I could go for that. I almost hate to admit this but I know John McCain (cue the famous line from the 1988 V.P. debate “”Senator, you’re no Jack Kennedy”) although I was really only in the same room with him a couple of times. He actually wasn’t a bad dude back then. The rogue maverick phase.
I worked for a number of years at the government trough sucking on the public teat. In my defence, however, I was the token environmentalist that got a seat at the big boy table. So I’d get these great congratulatory letters from McCain’s office when we secured grant money for bike lanes or bus stops or liveable city programs. So all in all, I did some manage to get some cool programs going.
different-church-lady
@Bob In Portland:
Because they like Sanders better than Clinton.
Now it’s my turn: why do you (and I mean you, in particular) act like a complete ass constantly?
different-church-lady
@Applejinx:
The difference, of course, is one of intent: when you piss people off, it’s not because you’re trying to.
The Goats' Nanny
@Bob In Portland:
You wrote: “Between paid speeches ($130 million), campaign contributions since 2001 (600-700 million dollars), the Clinton Foundation (two billion) and the Clinton Global Initiative (who knows, it’s incorporated in Canada, I hear) the 1% have invested close to three billion dollars in the Clintons. They’re expecting a return on her investment.”
Wait, what? Let me see if I’m understanding you here. Not sure where the $130 million came from but let’s look at this from just a going rate angle. So Hillary Rodham Clinton, who has been the most admired woman in the world a record twenty (20, m’kay?) times, is somehow seen as a spawn of satan (or satin, my personal favourite) because she can command a speaking fee that is pretty much in line with speaking fees that people will pay to see the best in their respective fields whether it is a big ol’ boy running with a football, a taller boy shooting a hoop, a musician, a performer, or a politician? I say smoke ’em if you got ’em.
p.s. I’m pretty sure the whole Wall Street diatribe isn’t going to play well in New York. It is, after all, a street in lower Manhattan.
Brachiator
@Applejinx:
Pretty much sums up the world view of the Tea Party and obstructionist Republicans.
Cacti
@The Goats’ Nanny:
For an example of white male privilege writ large, imagine for a moment how far Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton would have gotten in national politics if they’d spent their first 40-years consistently unemployed and each had a child out of wedlock.
Only a white dude can do that and still be taken seriously in the US of A.
J R in WV
@marduk:
Speaking of Hillary Clinton “As Sec. of State she was unacceptably hawkish” is pretty inaccurate. As Secretary of State she worked for President Obama, and she introduced HIS policies and worked to implement HIS plans. No doubt she had plenty of influence in discussions of issues and how to approach them, but the boss is the person in charge.
So talking about “unacceptably hawkish” in terms of Clinton’s work for President Obama is really nonsense. She wasn’t in charge of US policies, her boss was. If you want to call Obama unacceptably hawkish, OK go on and do that. But he didn’t start any big wars either.
The Goats' Nanny
@Elie: In fact, there’re plenty of records to reflect that she’s to the left of Bill.
J R in WV
@patroclus:
Well, you would also have to get over Bob’s admiration of Putin and his Kleptrocracy in Russia, and Bob’s steadfast opposition to Ukrainian Nazis (his words, not mine) trying to maintain independence from Russia. As well as his insistence on knowing how much money someone makes in order to try to understand their political stance.
Bob, it is none of your business how much money anyone commenting anywhere makes. Fuck you for being a nosy right-wing fruitcake – with nuts.
prob50
@Trentrunner:
And then top it off with some with some snide reference to a woman’s period.
marduk
@J R in WV: There’s been quite a bit of reporting on Hillary’s stint as SoS and her position as the most reliably hawkish member of Obama’s cabinet. Sometimes she got her way and sometimes she did not. Here‘s a recent article.
Uncle Cosmo
@Applejinx:
You are, as always, out of the pathetic collection of synapses that passes for your mind.
Bernie & his combination Children’s Crusade/Bolshevik Boomer Babies/motherfucking grifters like Tad Devine are in the process of wrecking the “democratic socialist” brand for yet another generation, all because the standard bearer decided he was more interested in winning the nomination than doing what he originally intended, i.e., pulling the Democratic Party to port.
Once he fails to deliver their prize pink DemSoc unicorns, those “hippies” will do what they–we, I should say–did back in ’68: Some will get high & crawl back into their own navels but the majority will set about cobbling together whatever they can of a career & family & portfolio & the rest of a life. But all of them will flip political activity the bird & abandon the gummint to the godbotherers & mouthbreathers. By the time they realize their mistake this country will be well on its way to becoming the United-We-Stand-Under-Lord-Jesus States of America…& the world may not survive it.
TallPete
@Aimai: There are some significant vote differences between Sanders and Clinton. Iraq War, Patriot Act, Keystone to name a few. Others listed here
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/sep/02/11-examples-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-hol/
TallPete
@ Uncle Cosmo
Are you nucking futs? You realize you are describing 40% of Dem primary voters – so far? Get a grip man.
Kropadope
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
He puts up his index finger instead of putting up his thumb like the Clintons do. That makes him eeeeeevil.
ETA: @magurakurin:
Well, there’s always Cuomo.
Kropadope
@Uncle Cosmo:
I’m really tired of this BS line. “All Bernie’s voters want are free unicorns with degrees for horns.” That is pure, 100% Republican “maker v taker” horsepuckey. Just because you have big ideas doesn’t mean you can’t also have a pragmatic approach.
Bernie is saying constantly that there will be a lot of resistance and much won’t be able to get done right away and we’ll need to take half loaves and build a better congress, et c. Hillary used these same lies against Obama while, just like with Sanders now, her opponent has a better record of accomplishment in Congress. Bernie is a strong consensus builder, Hillary will shame you for disagreeing with her, particularly from within the D party.
The simple fact of the matter is that Bernie and Hillary would likely accomplish about the same things legislatively. Through making appointments and influencing Washington culture, however, Bernie can lay a solid foundation for the society he wants to build, which he himself may never realize, while still protecting the improvements made under Obama.