Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I swear, each month of 2025 will have its own history degree.

When they say they are pro-life, they do not mean yours.

Stand up, dammit!

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Narcissists are always shocked to discover other people have agency.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

We will not go quietly into the night; we will not vanish without a fight.

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

Republicans cannot even be trusted with their own money.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

They don’t have outfits that big. nor codpieces that small.

Keep the Immigrants and deport the fascists!

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

You know he’s going to shit a cat.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Thursday Morning Open Thread: The Grownups, Doing Grownup Things

Thursday Morning Open Thread: The Grownups, Doing Grownup Things

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  3. 3.

    satby

    So, will we see if there are at least 5 patriots still in the Republican party who can put the good of the nation and the world ahead of their lust for power?  We’ll see…

  4. 4.

    Nukular Biskits

    Gonna call my Congresscritter again today and register my demand for a clean debt ceiling bill.

    Yeah, he’s a Republican asshole who pretends to be all “law ‘n’ order” (former sheriff) and a Christian (make that “Christianist”), but his staff will know that at least one constituent is really pissed at him.

  6. 6.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Baud: Might Dems get a deal (= clean increase in debt ceiling) by holding together and pealing off a handful of Rs?

  8. 8.

    sab

    @satby: I see your point, but what kind of “power” is it when they are so busy infighting that they cannot accomplish anything except to risk detroying things or actually destroy things that they don’t want to destroy, just to spite the other side.

  9. 9.

    Baud

    Don’t take our word for it.. just listen to members of The House Freedom Caucus who are now openly referring to the full faith and credit of the United States as a hostage

    “Got it. Both sides are to blame.”

  10. 10.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Baud: It’s hard for me envision the wackaloons (MTG, Gosar, Gaetz, others) agreeing to any “deal.” I doubt that they have the slightest inkling of any of the issues, nor do I think they have any interest in them. I think they will say “no” to anything just for the power rush and attention.

    I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

  11. 11.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @sab: I think you’ve just described the actual power dynamic here. These people are not that bright, and to them, next week is far, far away. If they get to break things and get all the attention that comes with that, then that’s a win for them. It’s a rush. Tomorrow will take care of tomorrow, and that’s a far as their “thinking” goes.

  12. 12.

    HumboldtBlue

    Made the trip to visit dad for the final time. Had a wonderful time, great family gathering, went off without a hitch, brought a lot of smiles and love to dad and to top it off on the first leg of the trip home I was lucky enough to be seated two seats in front of Mrs. Hackingcough, you know the asshole who doesn’t cover their mouth when they cough.

    Not to be outdone, on the second leg of the trip home I was lucky enough to be seated two rows in front of Mr. Hackingcough, who, just in case the missus hadn’t hacked enough, made sure he added his 20 minutes of hacking to the mix as well.

    I didn’t even get a T-shirt from the trip, just a swollen throat, a slight fever and a chest full of phlegm.

    No covid, fortunately, have tested twice since I got home and negative both times.

  13. 13.

    mrmoshpotato

    Stupid grownups being grownups!  Just let the Rethuglican little shits crash the (world) economy!  It’ll be fun!

  14. 14.

    lowtechcyclist

    I’m reminded of the story in Genesis where Abraham gets God to agree to not destroy the city of Sodom if it has even ten righteous men in it, having talked God down from fifty.

    If the House Republican Caucus has even five decent people in it, they can save the country from the disaster that the rest of their caucus would visit on us.

    Are there even five such Republicans in the House?  No telling – which tells you all you need to know about the GOP in 2023.

  23. 23.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: If I was one of the lucky R shits who won in NYS, I’d go independent the very next news cycle after the Squeaker’s “deal” gets knifed by the wackaloons. If I was in D leadership, I’d be greasing those skids every other hour.

  24. 24.

    JML

    @HumboldtBlue: I’ve pretty much decided to mask on airplanes until the end of time for just this reason, COVID or not. If it helps me dodge travel crud even 1/4 of the time, it’s worth it.

  30. 30.

    Kristine

    Any R who crosses the aisle to vote for the discharge petition will have to deal with death threats for who knows how long. I’d love to see 5 muster the courage and do so but idk if it’s possible.

  32. 32.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    “The House Freedom Caucus who are now openly referring to the full faith and credit of the United States as a hostage”

     

    Someone please alert the FBI HRT that the hostage-takers are armed, fanatical, and have taken over the House.

  33. 33.

    brendancalling

    @satby: HA. Those 5 Republicans exist about as much as Champ, the Lake Champlain monster. Those 5 Republicans are so nonexistent even Bigfoot laughs at the idea.

  37. 37.

    Soprano2

    @HumboldtBlue: You know what gets me? I still see people in public wearing masks incorrectly! No one has to wear one now, so if you’re going to wear one, wear it right!

  38. 38.

    Soprano2

    @Baud: Well, that’s bad news, because even if they get 5 Republicans to vote for it in the House I don’t see 9 Republicans voting for it in the Senate, let alone Mancin and Sinema. I think they should do it, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t see how it solves the problem.

  39. 39.

    Ken

    I understand some of the difficulties of predicting the default date (and I’m sure there’s a lot more that I don’t understand), but I fear that McCarthy and his caucus won’t feel any real pressure until Yellin announces one. Even then, if she says “June 12”, they won’t get anything through until the 11th, if then.

  40. 40.

    Kay

    Right wing think tank and governor can’t get professor because of Right wing policies:

    It was going to take Keith Schnakenberg a lot to leave his tenured position at Washington University in St. Louis, where he has worked in the political science department since 2016.
    But when he got a message from a professor in the University of Texas at Austin’s business school encouraging him to apply for a faculty position in the business, government and society department, he decided to throw his hat in the ring.
    The job also included a three-year place at the Civitas Institute, the new center at UT-Austin that focuses on “individual rights and civic virtue, constitutionalism, and free enterprise and markets” and has faced sharp criticism from faculty and students after it was revealed that the center was conceived with the help of state lawmakers like Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick and conservative donors.
    After a whirlwind visit in March, Schnakenberg got the job offer earlier this month. It came with tenure and a competitive salary. The university offered to cover moving expenses and provide money for new equipment.
    But last week, he turned down Texas’ top research university.
    The decision represents an odd twist in the current political debate over higher education in Texas. Conservatives, led by Patrick, have sought to tamp down a perceived liberal bias at the state’s universities by proposing to ban diversity and equity initiatives, eliminate tenure and create the Civitas Institute. But in this case, one priority seemed to have worked against another.
    In an email that he shared with The Texas Tribune, Schnakenberg told Kishore Gawande, head of the business school’s government department, and Justin Dyer, head of the Civitas Institute, that he decided to take the counter-offer provided by his current university. He told them the political climate in Texas played a role, too.
    “I must admit I have been closely following the activities of the Texas Legislature for the past couple of weeks, which has highlighted to me some potential risks that were not in the front of my mind at the outset of this process,” he wrote.

  43. 43.

    gene108

    We’re going to default. How long the default lasts until a deal is reached is the only question.

    The billionaire bosses of the Republican Party have enough people working for them that they probably have plans to profit from a default, so they don’t care.

    A recession will lower labor costs, so I don’t think big business will care. Just have across the board pay cuts or layoffs and they’re golden.

    I fail to see any counterbalancing forces to the Freedom Caucus that have any real incentive to pressure Republicans to do the right thing. We’re just hoping 5 House Republicans have a conscience and 9 Republican Senators have one as well to get us through this mess.

  45. 45.

    OzarkHillbilly

    AG Ken Paxton likely committed impeachable crimes, Texas House investigators say

    A Texas House committee on Wednesday heard explosive new testimony from lawyers investigating Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, including that he appeared to provide a friend with confidential FBI documents and committed other potentially impeachable crimes in an effort to help him retaliate against adversaries and federal officials.

    Many of the details have been outlined in a whistleblower suit that accuses Paxton of firing four top aides as retaliation after they reported the alleged misconduct to federal authorities.

    But Wednesday’s testimony painted the fullest picture yet of the ways in which Paxton allegedly leveraged the resources of his office to help the friend and campaign donor, Nate Paul. It also created a new and immediate threat for Paxton, who has denied all wrongdoing, since the House General Investigating Committee could recommend that the chamber censure him or begin impeachment proceedings.

    “Would it be fair to say the OAG’s office was effectively hijacked for an investigation by Nate Paul through the attorney general?” asked Houston state Rep. Ann Johnson, D-Houston.

    “That would be my opinion,” said investigator Erin Epley, a former Harris County prosecutor.

    The investigators listed a number of laws that Paxton may have violated, including abuse of official capacity and misuse of official information, both of which are felony offenses. The FBI is reportedly investigating the allegations, though no charges have been filed.

    Why… I never!

  46. 46.

    Blue Galangal

    I haven’t been on Twitter since the Musk takeover. I was astounded to see the top comments in Schiff’s feed in response. Twitter has become a dirty litter box. It’s stunning what Nazis can do to a social media platform in such a short time.

  47. 47.

    Anyway

    @JML:

    I’ve pretty much decided to mask on airplanes until the end of time for just this reason, COVID or not. If it helps me dodge travel crud even 1/4 of the time, it’s worth it.

    Airplane ventilation go beyond the recommendations of how air should be recirculated etc  – I don’t mask on airplanes.

  48. 48.

    Kay

    Is anyone else having problems with FAFSA? I’ve been filing a form for like the past 20 years and it’s never been a problem. Last year it was easier than ever- you can link your tax return to the form. This year I had it “rejected” twice and when I resubmitted the last time I got the email saying “success!” and a week later another email saying I hadn’t completed submission.

    I’ve done this so many times I’m afraid they are going to flag it for fraud. I will call them but I wonder what is going on. I wonder if geg6 is seeing it.

  50. 50.

    Kay

    @Blue Galangal:

    It is worse. I said I would quit but then went back for election results but I find I just gradually stopped going anyway without intending to “quit”. I just don’t want to see all that crap. It has such a nasty Right wing edge now. It’s all hate and people who think they’re clever or funny and aren’t.

    He’s such an asshole. Just ruined it because he could.

  53. 53.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: I’m not sure how much different Texas is from Missouri at this point. They haven’t tried to destroy the state university system here – at least not yet. That’s probably on next year’s agenda.

  54. 54.

    Geminid

    @Chief Oshkosh: Gaetz certainly won’t agree to a deal. He was one of 5 Republicans voting against McCarthy crappy debt ceiling bill, because it was no severe enough. I don’t expect any of his Freedom Caucus colleagues to go along either. McCarthy will have to get at least 110 votes out of the rest because House Democrats are not going to supply more votes than the Republicans do for legislation they find so problematic.

    That could involve three other sets of negotiations. Once the Biden-McCarthy deal is finalized, the two caucus whips will be negotiating with their own caucus members, but also, I think, dealing with each other. Katherine Clark could tell her counterpart, “As I feared, we can only get 100 members to commit to voting for this lousy piece of crap. It’s on your bunch of economic blackmailers to get at least 118 votes if you really don’t want to avert a default.”

    That seems like a potential dynamic, and another element of uncertainty as well. I can only guess as to how it might work out. There’s also the the Senate, but I think it’s the House vote that is the potential stumbling block here.

    So if the President and the Squeaker get to yes, it will be a waypoint, not the finish line. This impasse reminds me of the trite truism, “It ain’t over ’til it’s over.”

  55. 55.

    Eunicecycle

    @Kay: I used to spend quite a bit of time on Twitter, even after Musk took over. But it’s just so bad now; I curate who I follow but the comments to the tweets have just gotten so poisonous. That’s mostly why I went there, for the conversations about the tweets. But it’s very nasty now.

  56. 56.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    Good point, but he addresses it:

    Other states are following Texas’ efforts to ban tenure, including Ohio and North Carolina, where lawmakers are weighing similar proposals. Schnakenberg said that — and the proposals to ban diversity, equity and inclusion offices on college campuses — only made the decision to stay at a private university like Washington University more attractive. “We’re lucky to be in the United States as academics because this is the premier place to do it,” Schnakenberg said. “I just wonder if that’s going to be true in, let’s say, a decade, or if it’ll be true but in a different way, where it’s concentrated at private universities. … My hope is that these big, great public research universities remain top places in the world, but this is a difficult time because of that, and because of how widespread it is.”

    They’re going to ruin the big state schools, which breaks my heart. All those dopes like Bill Mahr and Bari Weiss and Elon Musk whining about “wokeness”  fed this insanity. They’re as responsible for this as any Right winger.

    Not that they care. None of them go to state schools anyway.

  57. 57.

    jonas

    @lowtechcyclist:Are there even five such Republicans in the House?  No telling – which tells you all you need to know about the GOP in 2023.

    That’s the problem:  McCarthy and the GOP got the well-gerrymandered, wackaloon Congress they’ve always wanted and now as the plane enters an increasingly irreversible nosedive, no-one will step up and take the controls because it would instantly cost them their jobs in the next primary, and/or cost McCarthy his speakership.

    Nice work, you cowardly m-f’ers.

  58. 58.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    Does Pond Skum have enough Twitter employees left in order to do another round of symbolic firings? Maybe he can dump the ones he accuses of sloppiness into a tank filled with sharks with lasers….

  59. 59.

    Kay

    @Eunicecycle:

    I went because it’s so efficient. I love the limits on length and how some people are ust very good at expressing themselves in 12 words- pithy! It’s why I love poetry.

    Great for following elections results too. But I realize I just gradually stopped going. It feels poisoned. I’m trying to limit my exposure to Right wing nastiness because it’s exhausting and demoralizing. I generally prefer to be happy :)

  60. 60.

    glory b

    @Nukular Biskits: I have a relative who is a fromer congressional staffer. She says they do actually pay attention to calls, and keep a running tally of the calls they get for & against whatever the topic is.

    Also, recent polling (I can’t remember from where) says that 52% to 42%, Americans want a clean debt ceiling raise. So, they might be feeling some heat & every bit helps.

  61. 61.

    Tony G

    @gene108: Disaster capitalism.  The big donors to the GOP probably WANT a default, because they have plans to profit from it economically and politically.  The economic catastrophes of German hyperinflation in the 1920’s followed by the Great Depression resulted in Hitler’s election in 1933, and the German corporations made plenty of profits under the new regime.  It was a win-win scenario … for a while, anyway.  I just wonder whether Biden will be able to pull off that “invoking the 14th amendment” maneuver.

  62. 62.

    lashonharangue

    @Anyway: I think the real exposure is before and after the plane takes off.  Sitting in the boarding area, lining up to board, getting your luggage, etc.

  63. 63.

    Kay

    Nice lady at FAFSA says we’re good and I should igore email that says I have to submit. But it’s weird. I’ve been submitting these since March.

  64. 64.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    I’m trying to limit my exposure to Right wing nastiness because it’s exhausting and demoralizing. I generally prefer to be happy :)

     
    I’ve never groked liberals who doom scroll.

  66. 66.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Tony G: I think many of our elites want an economic depression to loosen up the labor market. Sure, they lose a lot on paper, but getting desperate minions is worth it. They see economic collapse and artificial intelligence as their two ways out of the crunch.

  67. 67.

    Jeffro

    @JML: me too – I’m still going to be masking when on airplanes AND in airports AND on trains AND in train stations, etc.  If nothing else, it keeps you from touching your face after touching all those incredibly unclean surfaces.

    And I’m going to keep that hand sanitizer going too!

  69. 69.

    Xavier

    Every single article about the debt ceiling fight should point out that not only is the debt ceiling a red herring, the deficit itself is a also completely irrelevant in itself, as opposed to whatever effects government spending has on employment, inflation, and the economic benefits of citizens.

    We’ve had a national debt since 1836, and people have been predicting disaster since, well, 1837 probably, and yet disaster continues not to occur, children and grandchildren continue not to be burdened, etc. etc. It’s way past time to stop listening to these people, because they obviously don’t know what they are talking about.

  70. 70.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    The only time I really wholly indulged in it was during the period between when Biden won and Trump left the premises. I genuinely believed (and believe) that we survived a coup attempt. I was doom scrolling at 3 AM and texting one of my little sisters who was, I felt, the only person I knew who appreciated the danger we were in.

    She sent me a tentative text first “do you think this is really bad?” I thought “oh thank God, I have someone to talk to” :)

  71. 71.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    I feel we are constantly battling people who are blasé about risk on one side and people who are hysterical about them on the other.

  72. 72.

    Xavier

    @Matt McIrvin: Also, Republicans see electoral advantage in economic disruption, aside from their general hatred for government and ongoing attempts to create chaos that will prove their contention that government can’t do anything right.

  73. 73.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: That’s right, Washington University is a private university, so they can’t fuck with it.

  74. 74.

    Eunicecycle

    @Kay: I feel the same way. I was just diagnosed with high blood pressure, too, so I hope staying away from Twitter will help.

  75. 75.

    apocalipstick

    @gene108:

    Plenty of folks profited from the 2008 meltdown. I damn well guarantee you that the Kochs, DeVos(s), and Waltons have financial instruments in place that will pay handsomely in case of a default.

  76. 76.

    geg6

    @Kay:

    Give them a call.  Talk to a real person who can look into their system to figure out the problem.  Most of the time, it’s a mistake and it can be hard to figure out what you did wrong.  Less often, it’s a system problem.  The number for the Federal Student Aid Information Center is 800-433-3243.

  77. 77.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Kay:

    I have issues with tenure as a concept that are related to having ancient professors cling to chairs like drowning victims claw at everything around them that floats.

    Venerable old Professor Whoozits (the one who still gropes at 19 year old undergrads while wearing last week’s underwear and socks without change because at 84, he forgets) does need to clear the path.

  78. 78.

    terraformer

    This is what I don’t get: Republicans have done this before, and Democrats knew they were going to do this again – and that they were counting on the general murkiness of the issue, not helped by its name “debt ceiling”, which conjures reflexive “bad” because of decades of “debt” means bad.

    Yet, here we are, in the 11th hour, and Democrats have not done a good job at all explaining, in clear terms, what Republicans are doing here. Most casual observers hear that Republicans “have a bill” and that Democrats won’t negotiate over it. This even though there is NO bill, only a list of things with zero numbers

    The “they ran up a bill, now they don’t want to pay for it – but want to make YOU pay for it via reductions in XYZ”  is pretty good, but it’s late

    I just can’t understand how, after decades of messaging fails, Democrats still can’t seem to communicate clearly or effectively. I get they’re hampered by a big press and media apparatus that seems to prefer Republicans, but there has not been a clear, cohesive message that Democrats could have used to paint Republicans in a corner – again, they knew Republicans would do this, but the vacuum of coherent pushback has been filled with usual Republican misinformation amplified by the press

  79. 79.

    Soprano2

    @Eunicecycle: I’ve been curious to know if my high blood pressure has gone away since TFG isn’t president anymore. I joked about that with my doctor. Probably not, I have a lot of things going on now that would make it be elevated without TFG’s fuckery to worry about.

  80. 80.

    apocalipstick

    @Soprano2:

    Wash U will always be OK; it’s an incubator of right-wing political careers, the more upscale version of C of O.

  83. 83.

    apocalipstick

    @Kay:

    A lot of them do go to small, regional ‘directional’ schools; they often feel a great sense of inferiority toward the flagship state universities.

  84. 84.

    Kay

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:

    I do think they need it though. They really will get fired by Right wingers from state schools – just look at what they’re doing to K-12 public schools.

    That was the original justification for teachers unions – public school jobs were handed out as political rewards and taken away as political punishment. We’re seeing that resurface now in weak union states like Florida.

  85. 85.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @terraformer: Yet, here we are, in the 11th hour, and Democrats have not done a good job at all explaining, in clear terms, what Republicans are doing here. Most casual observers hear that Republicans “have a bill” and that Democrats won’t negotiate over it. This even though there is NO bill, only a list of things with zero numbers

    Oh, they’ve explained. I’ve heard several of the best explanations of the potential consequences of default during this iteration of the manufactured crisis. This messaging has been out there for months.

    Problem is you can’t force normies or our entertainment “news” media to pay attention. Or even some politically engaged folk, evidently.

  91. 91.

    schrodingers_cat

    @terraformer: I call BS on your messaging charge. White people’s party does what the majority of white people want it to do. Obstruct the Ds. You cannot wake up someone who is just pretending to sleep

    Most minorities and most other D voters seem to have no problem with hearing the Democratic message.

  92. 92.

    Jackie

    @HumboldtBlue: You have reminded me to choose seats on the back of a plane; I’d prefer coughers to be in front of me, propelling their hacking crud forward. And of course wear a mask!

  93. 93.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: A tenured faculty member can be fired for cause. I was once on a committee that recommended firing a tenured professor who was sexually harassing students and junior faculty. The univerity followed through and did it.

    Someone who is no longer capable of doing the job could also be fired, but I assume they’d be treated more gently. I’m not sure how it would handled.

  94. 94.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Kay: I noted the same impression of the degradation of Twitter in a thread last night. The mouth breathers are waiting in the wings on every thread and then it’s just “groomer this” and “senile Biden that.” Those are the 2 platform points of the Republican Party right now.

  98. 98.

    Eyeroller

    @Geminid: Yes.

    Also, a mandatory retirement age is illegal for jobs like this.  Tenure just makes it much, much harder to fire an older professor for cause, which would be what would happen in other jobs not subject to age limits.

  99. 99.

    Eyeroller

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Sexual harrassment and even dating undergrads is a sure way to get fired, tenure or no.  But firing a tenured professor simply because he is no longer able to do the job usually requires something called “post-tenure review,” which is very rarely used in most places.  It also requires the department in question to take action, which can be difficult and not just because the others want to protect their phoney-baloney jobs (“Blazing Saddles” reference), it is also due to fear of confrontation, respect for a beloved colleague, etc.

  100. 100.

    tam1MI

    @JML: I’ve pretty much decided to mask on airplanes until the end of time for just this reason, COVID or not. If it helps me dodge travel crud even 1/4 of the time, it’s worth it.

    I take a small can of Lysol or a small bottle of Sanitizing Hand Spray on planes with me and do a quick spray of the area where I will be sitting. At the very least I do a spray-down of the seat back tray table. I swear doing this has protected me from getting cold, Covid, or plane crud.

  101. 101.

    RaflW

    I think part of the winning argument against a second Orange Fartcloud presidency was that the endless GOP chaos and mismanagement was freakin’ exhausting for the 2/3rds of America who are normal, not MAGA.

    This needless cliff driving while drunk (with single-chamber power) thing should garner the same, effective attack on these fu*•ers.

  102. 102.

    JPL

    Supreme Ct just weakened the clean water act ..  fk em

    The article is from theWashington Post and I gifted it.   I want others to read it and weep like I did.

  104. 104.

    lowtechcyclist

    @JPL:

    Supreme Ct just weakened the clean water act .

    Because of course they did.  Fuck ’em indeed.

  105. 105.

    sdhays

    @schrodingers_cat: Democrats in the House aren’t happy with Biden’s messaging and polls aren’t showing a majority putting blame where it belongs. That’s why the House leadership has been getting out front more.

  106. 106.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    When I was in law school, somebody thought it would be a good idea to name me as the student representative (as a 2L) on the new faculty selection committee. Out of a giant stack of resumes, I created a scoring system that was heavily weighted toward “real world” practice, work and management experience, along with stellar academic performance. My reasoning was simple – they would be engaging and be able to draw on the experience of the circumstances they encountered out in no academic settings. As a result, my list had a lot of career diversity and a lot of military experience. The worst marks in my stack went to some dork with academic honors who’d never worked outside of academia for more than 4-6 months (had the briefest of clerkships with a federal judge, IIRC).

    Of course, they hired the dork.

    He was an unmitigated disaster. Everybody in his classes hated him, and he was a constant no show. After I graduated, I learned that all the other profs wound up covering a huge number of his classes. He got tenure, and was crutched along for years, apparently because he had crippling depression and schizophrenia – which he wrote about later in some whiny and self-pitying autobiographical book that probably sold 23 copies.

    Because of him, a lot of people paid a lot of money and didn’t receive the full benefit of a professor committed to instruction on that subject matter. The clutching of fellow academics when they’re failing at basic tasks is why I hate so much about academia.

  107. 107.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Not sure where you’re getting your anecdotes from (100 years ago?), but tenure doesn’t protect a faculty member from the bad behavior you describe. I’m not saying that there aren’t factors that can make it difficult to investigate, charge, and fire any given faculty member, but for what you describe, tenure per se is not one of those factors.

    As for oldsters staying on after their expiry, I see that in academia, industry, and public service fields. Is it more prevalent in academia? I guess we’d have to do a study…  ;)

  108. 108.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geminid:

    Would a 35 year term limit on tenure be permissible under federal law in this area?

    My nonlawyerly WAG is that it shouldn’t be a problem.  They can’t make employment or promotion contingent on age, but for persons on the tenure track now or in the future, they could rewrite the rules so that you’re tenured for 35 years, or up to age 70, and then you become a non-tenured, non-tenure-track assistant professor.

  109. 109.

    Geminid

    @JPL: Speaking of water. I read that on Monday, six(?) Colorado River states agreed to a new compact governing use of Colorado River water.

    I have not looked into the details, just scanned the headlines. Now I really wish Martin was still around this forum. He was very tuned into this question.

  110. 110.

    zhena gogolia

    @HumboldtBlue: I’m not always the biggest AOC fan, but she does speak clearly and forcefully, which is a good asset to have in the House. I feel the same way about Dan Goldman, although I am not his constituent and someone weighed in the other night who is a constituent and not a fan.

  111. 111.

    schrodingers_cat

    I am tired of these tedious discussions about D messaging. Anyone who thinks that both sides are to blame is either a liar or too stupid to live

    We can blame the messaging, we can blame the media but ultimately in a democracy its the voters who are to blame. Specifically the voters who vote Republican. It doesn’t really matter whether its due to prejudice or ignorance or to preserve your group identity. The net result is the same.

  112. 112.

    narya

    @Geminid: Charlie Pierce has been following/reporting on this as well, and is speaking well of this agreement . . . which apparently is also being held up by the stupid debt limit shit.

  113. 113.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: ​  Oh boy, fun with anecdata. I’ll give my countervailing example. As a 3L, I was a student representative on our faculty selection committee. We ended up picking (and I fully agreed with the decision) a person who had never worked outside of academia and had to go for an LLM before she could take the bar because she had graduated from law school at 20. She then got a Masters in psychology and ended up publishing on law and psych. She was brilliant and engaging in person and in the classroom. She ended up a very popular and respected professor.​
     

    ETA: I’ll add that we probably differ on the idea that law should be taught as an academic discipline not as a vocational subject.

  114. 114.

    Suzanne

    Oh my God, I really need another crap-on-Puddin’ Cup thread this morning. The headlines are B R U T A L, and I am 100% here for it.

  115. 115.

    Kay

    @JPL:

    Under the Sacketts’ proposed definition of the law, they said, about half of all wetlands and roughly 60 percent of streams would no longer be federally protected.

    That’s a shame. They’re such dummies on the Right. Wetlands are flood control. They understand nothing- have no real world experience of any kind. These cases are too complex for these coddled, insulated far Right dopes. Anything past “I heard it on Fox News” is beyond their ken.

  117. 117.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @schrodingers_cat: Anyone who thinks that both sides are to blame is either a liar or too stupid to live

    As always, a wellspring of human compassion.

    My recommendation, everyone make sure the people in your life who will listen to you on the matter understand what’s happening and are engaged in doing the same for others.

    That’s how voters get informed, because the media won’t do it.

  120. 120.

    Eyeroller

    @lowtechcyclist: At most universities, “not tenured” doesn’t mean “assistant professor.”  Most larger institutions have some other kind of non-tenured faculty, but pushing a tenured faculty member into those streams would be a demotion.  And also might not be welcomed by the other faculty in those tracks.  But some status could probably be invented for a situation like this.

  122. 122.

    Brachiator

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I am tired of these tedious discussions about D messaging. Anyone who thinks that both sides are to blame is either a liar or too stupid to live.

    Ha! So true.

    Also, probably an apt description of the Beltway press.

  123. 123.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Kay:

    “But why is National Flood Insurance so EXPENSIVE? I need to build my 6000 square foot dream home within a 3 minute walk to the waterfront!”

  125. 125.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    We can blame the messaging, we can blame the media but ultimately in a democracy its the voters who are to blame. Specifically the voters who vote Republican. It doesn’t really matter whether its due to prejudice or ignorance or to preserve your group identity. The net result is the same.

    Oh, yes. Words don’t matter. In politics. Where language is literally their only tool.
    Democrats spend a billion in primarily small donor money on campaigns every 4 years. They should pay attention to whether they’re getting quality work in return.
    If they’re going to ask people who make 40k a year for donations they better get very good at talking, because talking is the tool of their trade. If they can’t manage that they should find a different profession.

  126. 126.

    Jeffro

    @JPL: I don’t think we have to listen to them anymore, honestly, and I hope President Biden says so.

    They’re utterly corrupt and captured by big money, and they CERTAINLY aren’t “calling balls and strikes” anymore.  (If they ever were)

  127. 127.

    Geminid

    @Kristine: Martin got very frustrated one night about pushback he got over a controversial Harry Potter computer game. He implied that he’d be back after a few weeks, but it wasn’t a promise.

  129. 129.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @schrodingers_cat: Let’s just say I respond to you the same reason I respond to eversore, the main difference between you being the targets of your animus and the duration of your stay here.

    I provided what I thought is a workable to solution to help get more voters engaged. If your going to bother responding to my post, why not respond to that

    ETA: If you check upthread, I’m not exactly on board with trashing D messaging either.

  130. 130.

    Kay

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:

    I could weep. Conservatives used to understand this stuff. Thirty years ago we had a huge set aside for flood control in part of the county where two larg-ish rivers intersect- it’s a federally protected wetland. Everyone knew it was flood control. The wetland was a side benefit.

    They deserve to drown.

  133. 133.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Jeffro:

    “It took FEMA forever to get around to giving me, a hardworking white man, relief from all my flood damage after my homeowners’ policy screwed me. How was I supposed to know I’d have rising groundwater and should by flood insurance? That shit is expensive, Y’know, and I wouldn’t have been able to afford my boat, my RV or my golf club membership! Plus, my kids Bradleigh and Tragedeigh wouldn’t have been able to go to their Christian Academy or mission trips to the Maldives!”

  134. 134.

    JPL

    @Kay: Since Alito issued this ruling, speculation is that Roberts will issue the Voting Rights decision.

    I’m sick.

  135. 135.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Eyeroller: ​
      Yes, but we are talking about instituting a sort of semi-retired status for professors. To me, adapting an already existing status would be easier than creating something out of whole cloth. Then again, I am not sure that the process in even necessary. Is this really a systemic problem that needs a systemic solution or are there a just few people who hang on too long?

  137. 137.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Kay:

    Smart farmers (the guys who have several hundred acres under tillage, went to ag college and treat it like the business it is) generally do get it, even though they’re conservative by nature. The ones who don’t get it are real estate developers, their investors, people who have hobby farms and the mullet/pickup/goatee/guns exurban crowd.

  138. 138.

    JPL

    @Jeffro:  When they decide that the state can determine what restrictions can be placed on voting rights, I think the north should secede.   Of course I also thought they should be a slow boat to China.

  140. 140.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: All they know about it is that it’s land that the EPA is keeping them from bulldozing and building stuff on. That’s it, that’s what they care about – at least until it floods something fierce, and then they whine that no one told them that would happen.

  142. 142.

    cain

    @Kay: Those states are going to have really bad economic downturn.

    Secondly, I’m wondering what the alumni of these universities are going to say about all this.

  144. 144.

    apocalipstick

    @Jeffro:

    The problem I have with the ‘calling balls and strikes’ metaphor is that anyone who’s ever played baseball knows that the ump doesn’t just call balls and strikes, he/she determines the strike zone. Some umps, you better swing at anything letter-high, because it’ll be a strike. Others, nothing above the belt is a strike. It’s a dishonest analogy that neglects human nature.

  147. 147.

    apocalipstick

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    Much of the time the ‘can’t be relieved due to tenure’ canard boils down to ‘didn’t do our due diligence’ or ‘investigating this would be hard’.

  149. 149.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: It’s not like that many Virginia votes of any ethnicity flipped. My crude, on-a-napkin calculation of the elements making the 12 point swing from Biden’s 10 point win and Youngkin’s 2 point win is (factoring in the normal dropoff from a presidential to a state election): a 3 point increase in hungry Republican voters and a 3 point dropoff in complacent Democratic voters, plus a 3% component of Biden-to-Youngkin voters. Most of the latter probably came out of VIrginia’s 30%+ share of Independents

    The presence of Trump on the 2020 ballot probably contributed to Biden’s 10 point total, and Trump’s absence on 2021 definitely helped Youngkin.

  151. 151.

    geg6

    @Eyeroller:

    Emeritus.  Professor Emeritus.  We have some at my university.  They get an office and a class or two and don’t lose face at all.  In fact, they are considered elder statespersons.

  152. 152.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: I hadn’t done any math on the matter, but to the degree that the bigoted comment I was replying to is true, I surmise the answer to SC’s comment is “yes.” Even if it only refers to ten people, the question has an answer.

    Sometimes you have to ignore the bigotry to respond to what the point is.

  153. 153.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: ​
      It’s like federal judges taking senior status or law firm partners moving to “of counsel” status.

  155. 155.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Sure. He told them stories about critical race theory.

    Democrats moved white non college women 4 points in their direction the last midterm. Conversly, they lost ground with white college men. It matters what they say. It isn’t all set in stone and it isn’t about convincing Republicans. It’s convincing normies who don’t pay attention.

  156. 156.

    NotMax

    @apocalipstick

    The three types of umpires.

    #1: “There are balls and there are strikes and I calls ’em as I sees ’em.”
    #2: “There are balls and there are strikes and I calls ’em as they are.”
    #3: “There are balls and there are strikes but they ain’t neither ’til I says so.”
    ;)

  158. 158.

    Kay

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:

    The litigants are people who bought .68 of an acre. They will now ruin half the waterways in the United States because they’re special and shouldn’t have to follow wetlands rules. They couldn’t put their stupid pretend ranchette somewhere else? They had to stick it in a wetland?

    They’re all a menace to the country.

  160. 160.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I also have personal conflicts with certain people here. Speaking for myself only my practice is, as much as I can, to not respond to their comments at all. I feel that generally, there’s nothing to be gained.

  161. 161.

    cain

    @Geminid: What happened to Martin? I do notice that he is not here.

    ETA – never mind. It’s because of some harry potter thread. Got it.

  162. 162.

    Kay

    This is a kind of elaborate analysis of the 2022 midterm. It concludes that Democrats ran really tight, focused campaigns in “contested” states (state where they was a competitive senate race, mostly) and that carried the day for them- halted the red wave in those states.

    OTOH, they ran shitty, sloppy, complacent campaigns in NY and CA and that lost the House.

    So I think it matters what they say and who they hire.

  163. 163.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:
    They’re going to ruin the big state schools, which breaks my heart.

     

    Only certain state schools, Kay. The divide will become evident.

  165. 165.

    cain

    @rikyrah: Until the GOP gain access to the federal govt – but then again, if we take it back we can flip it back. Luckily you can’t gerrymander the entire united states, yet.

  166. 166.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    Nice lady at FAFSA says we’re good and I should igore email that says I have to submit. But it’s weird. I’ve been submitting these since March.

     

    I haven’t had to do the FAFSA.

    But, I had to do the Student Loan Public Service Program paperwork.

    Sent it in 4 times before I got confirmation that they had all my paperwork. Hassle, but, oh well.

  167. 167.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    I genuinely believed (and believe) that we survived a coup attempt. I was doom scrolling at 3 AM and texting one of my little sisters who was, I felt, the only person I knew who appreciated the danger we were in

     

    Kay,

    You know the folks here thought it was THAT BAD.

    We were here hanging out…LOL

  170. 170.

    frosty

    @Kay: ​
     The litigants are people who bought .68 of an acre. They will now ruin half the waterways in the United States because they’re special and shouldn’t have to follow wetlands rules.

    They just fucked up my profession and my career, which is entirely based on protecting Waters of the United States. The turmoil is going to be incredible. Every city, county, and state agency that operates a stormwater system is going to have to upend everything they do to meet their discharge permits.
    Plus, redefine what waters need to be protected. I’m glad I retired.

  172. 172.

    Juju

    @Kay: That reminds me of Michelle Malkin when forest fires were creeping ever closer to her house in Colorado Springs a number of years ago. It’s been a while so I’m not sure all the details are exact, but I think she made comments about the forest firefighters being unionized and making too much money, while they were in her area protecting her neighborhood from the fires, and that the firefighters should have been there sooner.

  173. 173.

    glory b

    @terraformer: Really? I’ve seen and heard a number of Dems on television & social media talking about just that. And a majority of Americans polled recently want a clean debt ceiling raise, by10 or 11 points.

    I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again, there is no messaging failure, this is a way to not see Americans for what they are. People know what we stand for. They don’t want to vote for what they see as the black people’s party.

    The Democrats haven’t won the white vote since 1967. Guess what happened that year?

  174. 174.

    Eyeroller

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s not all that different from other areas where people hang on as long as they can; it’s just that tenure makes it messier to fire them.

    Emeritus is very specifically for retired faculty.  If you force everyone to emeritus status at (say) age 70, that would be effectively firing them, since when you retire you resign your position.  Emeritus is a courtesy position, it is not paid, but it comes with some perks such a continued affiliation, rights to use the gym/library/whatever, maybe a small (often shared) office, access to computing resources, etc.

  176. 176.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: I tried that and I tried pie. I don’t have to respond to everything I disagree with but there are certain things I can’t leave alone despite knowing I should do better.

    The best I got for how I should handle this one; be constructive, try to avoid harsh invective, and get out quick

    Eta: And as much as that one wants to pretend it’s about policy or political preferences, it’s not. It’s the mean spritedness and selective reading. Notice I agree with her on the substance of the question at hand.

  177. 177.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @Blue Galangal: I am still on Twitter. It doesn’t matter but I do think a lot of them are bots. What’s funny is when you go to a an Elon Musk post and the replies are the opposite. Praising him like he’s the next coming of Christ. I’m not sure if he realizes they’re bots and he’s in on the game or if it’s certain foreign characters playing up  to his narcissism.

  180. 180.

    No One You Know

    @Kay: Did you get it in writing? You might want to… Sending an email confirmation of the the call might save you grief later.

    ETA: Oops, sorry,  I should’ve read downthread. This is well covered! I’m relieved for you, anyway.

  184. 184.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I am argumentative by nature, and if I tried to refute every comment here that I disagreed with I’d be the Pied Griper of Balloon Juice.

    But that’s a choice I can pass up. To the extent that I can have restraint, I credit much of it to the calming example of one of my models, Mangy Jay. Do you read her Twitter account?

  186. 186.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I can still access my favorite Twitter follows: Mangy Jay, Ragnarok Lobster, Rachel Bitecofer, Michael Paulauski and others. Laura Rozen is a good source for foreign news; she is a discerning aggregator, as is Cheryl Rofer. And I have been following Ragip Soylu for Turkish election news.

    I actually signed up last winter and even commented some. But when I got a new phone I needed to sign up again and I passed. I can still read what I want to.

  187. 187.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: Ill check them out. I’m pretty sure my account is still open. I blocked Elon, though, so who knows?

  188. 188.

    schrodingers_cat

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I was using a figure of speech called hyperbole. This is the website of tire rims and battery acid after all.

    I reiterate that I haven’t made a single personal attack on you in this thread.

    hy·per·bo·le

    noun

    exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally

    Anyway I have nothing personal against you. I wish you all the best.

  189. 189.

    dnfree

    @Anyway: It’s been pointed out that the ventilation feature of airplanes is not working when the plane is loading or landing or taxiing around, let alone if you get caught waiting on the ground.  And you’re out of luck if the person coughing is sitting right next to you in economy.

  190. 190.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:I’m much older than Magdi Jacobs aka Mangy Jay, but I think I’ve learned a lot from her. Part of the reason is her good base of social science knowledge, but a lot is her perceptive and objective thinking and analysis.

    I think Jacobs works full time, but she writes some for Dame Magazine and John Stoehr’s The Editorial Board. Early in the pandemic, Jacobs wrote an article published in Foreign Affairs that got a lot of attention. It was about the scope and power of public health authority, illustrated by her own experience when she contracted drug-resistant tuberculosis.

    Magdi Jacobs grew up in Alaska, but now lives in Bloomsburg, Pa. Ms. Jacobs described volunteering for a presidential campaign in 2000 when she was too young to vote, so I guess she is about 40 years old.

  191. 191.

    Eyeroller

    @Omnes Omnibus: It is immutable to the extent that it is a very entrenched tradition in academia.  The dictionary definition of the word emeritus is “having retired but allowed to retain one’s title as an honor.”  It doesn’t just apply to academic faculty but that’s where it is most widely used.

    So if you want to create a status of faculty from whom tenure has been removed but are still considered employed, you have to come up with a different word.

  194. 194.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)

    @Blue Galangal:

    It’s late, but let me introduce (or remind) you all of the Nazi bar rule, from @Iamragesparkle on Twitter, back in the day:

    I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
    And the dude next to me says, “hey I’m not doing anything, I’m a paying customer,” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “Out. Now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed.
    Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “You didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”

    And i was like, ohok and he continues. “you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
    And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.“
    And i was like, ‘Oh, damn,’ and he said “Yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”

    And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.

  195. 195.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Qevin is a spineless worm.  Fuck him, and his entire seditious caucus.

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